I'm sure there must already be such a game in print?
Call of Cthulhu for once :P
The Gumshoe system is this, basically.
Or any skill-based system that has careers or professions as templates that highlight the skill areas linked to such.
Barbarians of Lemuria does this with careers that are general catch-all's for the skills.
I think Star Wars 1e could qualify.
Warrior, Rogue, and Mage. One class. Develop the character as you wish.
This is basically the description for any skill based system without classes. OFf the top of my head GURPS would qualify, as would D6 (it has "templates" but those aren't really classes).
Knave is classless, and lets you improve your choice of ability score bonuses (for STR, INT, DEX, etc) as you level up. Knave hacks such as Glaive and my own Book & Blade also let you choose Feats as you level up for PC customization. Ability score checks are used instead of skills.
Quote from: Jam The MF on October 30, 2021, 12:55:58 AM
I'm sure there must already be such a game in print?
Escape From Planet Matriarchy! RPG. I have the hardcover. I only use RPG systems that are skill-based.
Savage Worlds does this quite well!
You can build whatever character you want depending on the campaign world your playing in they don't have classes but a list of skills and powers. I'm in the middle of changing the OS of my world to Savage (currently its PF2). By the time we get done with the current campaign, I will have my world ready for the Savage conversion as I have already got the races converted over, adding a rune system for magic weapons and armor and a few other tweaks to make it mine :)
Pretty much half of the RPGs in existence, I think.
RuneQuest was one of the earliest classless responses to D&D.
Quote from: Jam The MF on October 30, 2021, 12:55:58 AM
I'm sure there must already be such a game in print?
Ancient Mysteries & Lost Treasures
https://www.lulu.com/es/es/shop/simon-washbourne/ancient-mysteries-lost-treasures-rpg/paperback/product-1622gjed.html?page=1&pageSize=4 (https://www.lulu.com/es/es/shop/simon-washbourne/ancient-mysteries-lost-treasures-rpg/paperback/product-1622gjed.html?page=1&pageSize=4)
https://www.google.com.mx/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwilgr35_fPzAhUik2oFHZMNBcUQFnoECAMQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fbeyondbeliefgames.webs.com%2FAncient%2520Mysteries_v.1.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0lp7-DahGHhaJaraEhEW_c (https://www.google.com.mx/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwilgr35_fPzAhUik2oFHZMNBcUQFnoECAMQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fbeyondbeliefgames.webs.com%2FAncient%2520Mysteries_v.1.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0lp7-DahGHhaJaraEhEW_c)
Many, many non-d20/OSR games as mentioned.
Within the d20 family, Talislanta for 5e introduces an "adventurer" class as the default for the setting, although it also says you can bring in non-magic-using classes from 5e core if you want.
CoC d20 boiled it down to "offence" and "defence" classes that affected your progression of to-hit bonus and saves. I like a lot of things about CoC d20, the magic system for example, but then I run up against the fact that a middle-aged 10th-level librarian character is much better at fighting than a 20 yr-old 1st-level soldier.
I think that highlights something about how class and level interact. If you just have 1 class and continue to tie combat ability to level progression, then everyone is a fighty-type person at least in an in-game-world sense. You can always rationalise it like the old prof managing to connect a really good punch, but that gets old quickly. In theory the same goes for any ability tied directly to level progression, although combat is the main one usually.
I would probably go with a Fighter class and an Expert class, with the Lamentations of the Flame Princess approach that only fighters get a to-hit bonus progression (er, if I remember rightly - I think this is right at least among the human classes, maybe the demihumans get it too).
Stars Without Number does something similar and throws in a psion class.
Many.
My first choice for this would be BRP (e.g., Chaosium's Basic Roleplaying "gold book", or one of the BRP-based games like Runequest). Depending on what I'm after, I might also consider Rolemaster 2 with a house-rule that all characters use the "no profession" profession, which would provide a universal skill list and skill cost matrix.
That's almost a Zen koan, now that I think about it. "A game with only one class is really a game with no classes."
In practice of course there's no such thing, if you define character class by its real function in the game, which is to protect character roles by structuring character design and mechanics so that minimum acceptable effectiveness at any one function requires specialization in it. There's a reason nobody ever tried to play a multiclass fighter/thief/magic-user/cleric in D&D.
QuoteThere's a reason nobody ever tried to play a multiclass fighter/thief/magic-user/cleric in D&D.
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/023/021/e02e5ffb5f980cd8262cf7f0ae00a4a9_press-x-to-doubt-memes-memesuper-la-noire-doubt-meme_419-238.jpg)
Revised/2e Gamma World is a classless system. It doesnt even have levels.
BX D&D had an article for a create your own class system in Dragon. 2e D&D had a less useful version in the core books.
Tunnels & Trolls has ping-ponged between pseudo-classes and a single omni-class.
Call of Cthulhu is a class based system. Just not like most others.
Star Frontiers was another pseudo-class based system. Three profession tracks and you can acquire skills from any track, just at a higher cost than your choosen one. Though an issue of Dragon opted a jack-of-all trades path that had a flat cost for all profession skills. But some cost more than would had you focused.
If I recall right, TSR's Conan RPG was a classless one, or darn close.
Theres lots of variations on this. Several superhero RPGs like TSR's MSH are classless.
Quote from: Wrath of God on November 02, 2021, 04:39:29 PM
QuoteThere's a reason nobody ever tried to play a multiclass fighter/thief/magic-user/cleric in D&D.
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/023/021/e02e5ffb5f980cd8262cf7f0ae00a4a9_press-x-to-doubt-memes-memesuper-la-noire-doubt-meme_419-238.jpg)
Fair point. Let me backpedal a little then: Stipulating that somebody somewhere probably tried at least once, I doubt they kept it up for long. Being 2nd level in four classes does not make you able to keep up with everyone else who's eighth level in one class.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on November 03, 2021, 08:48:21 AM
Quote from: Wrath of God on November 02, 2021, 04:39:29 PM
QuoteThere's a reason nobody ever tried to play a multiclass fighter/thief/magic-user/cleric in D&D.
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/023/021/e02e5ffb5f980cd8262cf7f0ae00a4a9_press-x-to-doubt-memes-memesuper-la-noire-doubt-meme_419-238.jpg)
Fair point. Let me backpedal a little then: Stipulating that somebody somewhere probably tried at least once, I doubt they kept it up for long. Being 2nd level in four classes does not make you able to keep up with everyone else who's eighth level in one class.
You'd have some cool versatility, if nothing else.
Quote from: Jam The MF on November 03, 2021, 08:49:30 PMYou'd have some cool versatility, if nothing else.
True. But versatility is only useful when specialization isn't available, for whatever reason. The downside of being the second-string backup to everyone else is that you never get a first-string spotlight chance of your own.
There are lots of skill-based non-D&D games; some of my favorites are GURPS and Mythras. There is also Savage Worlds and many others.
If you want something close to OSR/D&D, take a look at mine. Classes are just collection of feats; most checks are skills.
Dark Fantasy Basic
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/229046/Dark-Fantasy-Basic--Players-Guide
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on November 04, 2021, 12:01:56 PM
Quote from: Jam The MF on November 03, 2021, 08:49:30 PMYou'd have some cool versatility, if nothing else.
True. But versatility is only useful when specialization isn't available, for whatever reason. The downside of being the second-string backup to everyone else is that you never get a first-string spotlight chance of your own.
True; but being a jack of all trades backup to everyone else in the party could be handy, especially if one of the other players goes down in combat. Primary healer goes down? Primary caster goes down? Primary skill monkey goes down? Front line melee or back line ranged combatant goes down? You can always help the party get by in a pinch, and you can focus more on role play. No need to obsess over min-maxing. Just try to be versatile.
Shadowrun is another classless system. And a pretty good one too.
Theres also oddball omni-systems there there are classes. But they are more like skill packages or 2e kits than actual classes.
Dragon Storm had backgrounds you could pick up. But were usually not limited to just one. You could be a farmer and a remorseful apprentice. Or you might be an apprentice and later pick up Night Witch. Or you might not pick up any at all. You did though need an appropriate background to be able to case spells from that background. Such was how the game worked. So in a way they functioned more like professions than classes.
My own book back in the 90s was a bit of a mix. Players would choose a profession. But from there were free to acquire about anything if they could both find a teacher and had the right aptitude. Mainly because the professions just gave you a set of starter skills and some of those skills granted access to spellcasting. The professions were more a guideline to the DM as to what the players initial concept was and to spark ideas for any background
QuoteFair point. Let me backpedal a little then: Stipulating that somebody somewhere probably tried at least once, I doubt they kept it up for long. Being 2nd level in four classes does not make you able to keep up with everyone else who's eighth level in one class.
That just makes you perfectly fine 8th level bard
I much prefer class-less and level-less systems.
Wanna group a bucket of skills that are tied to a "profession," and you buy them fleet less than offer skills? Right up my alley. Go even further and use a life path system that gives you x amount of points in certain skills each term.
Reverb combat should be skill based.
I have simmilar sentiments generally speaking.
I can't see the appeal of a classless Fantasy system.
A game where you're playing a Sci-Fi and you're using archetypes or backstories like TMNT & OS makes sense. Though you could call the different backgrounds classes of a sort.
QuoteI can't see the appeal of a classless Fantasy system.
Simple, you can customize your character as you want, and everything is some sort of skill/feat/talent.
Fantasy does not need to hang on tactical combat engines promoting high specialisation level.
Quote from: PsyXypher on November 06, 2021, 11:06:46 PM
I can't see the appeal of a classless Fantasy system.
Oh, I can see the appeal. It's just that the reality is that a "good" classless system is unachievable. A "good enough" system, however.
It's like creating a gish. You can make a character that serves as a secondary fighter or a secondary magic user, but will never shine as either. Because creating a true gish would outshine every other class. So, just from a balance perspective, you have to design the mechanics such that any fighter-magic user combo becomes less than the sum of its parts.
The same is true with classless systems. There are synergies that can be achieved (and, most importantly, balanced) via classes that aren't going to happen via skills. Or, if they do, those synergies are so much better that the relevant skils are just plain better when taken together, at which point they might as well be a class. So it's a very fine line to tread. And all for characters who often feel less "robust" (because they are missing the little bangles that get added in classes that aren't worth taking as independent skills), or less comprehensive (usually because most classless systems are vulnerable to hyper-specialization). So, while I recognize the theoretical allure of classless systems... that way lies madness...
Quote from: PsyXypher on November 06, 2021, 11:06:46 PM
I can't see the appeal of a classless Fantasy system.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 08, 2021, 07:07:33 PM
The same is true with classless systems. There are synergies that can be achieved (and, most importantly, balanced) via classes that aren't going to happen via skills. Or, if they do, those synergies are so much better that the relevant skils are just plain better when taken together, at which point they might as well be a class. So it's a very fine line to tread. And all for characters who often feel less "robust" (because they are missing the little bangles that get added in classes that aren't worth taking as independent skills), or less comprehensive (usually because most classless systems are vulnerable to hyper-specialization). So, while I recognize the theoretical allure of classless systems... that way lies madness...
What classless systems have you used, Eirikrautha? I've enjoyed RuneQuest, HarnMaster, Burning Wheel, GURPS, Savage Worlds, Hero System, Amber Diceless, Ars Magica, Pendragon, Mouse Guard, and Dresden Files -- plus probably a bunch of others more for one-shots and such. I have some complaints about each of them, but I don't find that they're inferior to class-based.
Which ones have you played?
I find that while technically it's possible to create an effective hyper-specialized character in most classless systems, in my experience that hasn't happened. Mostly the players have created more believable and robust characters, and the times when they don't, usually the GM steps in to disallow it. ("No, you can't put all your points into just Strength and Sword.") In any system (including class-based), it's important for the GM to be willing to say "no" to certain characters -- but moreso for point-based classless systems.
Quote from: jhkim on November 08, 2021, 08:15:37 PM
Quote from: PsyXypher on November 06, 2021, 11:06:46 PM
I can't see the appeal of a classless Fantasy system.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 08, 2021, 07:07:33 PM
The same is true with classless systems. There are synergies that can be achieved (and, most importantly, balanced) via classes that aren't going to happen via skills. Or, if they do, those synergies are so much better that the relevant skils are just plain better when taken together, at which point they might as well be a class. So it's a very fine line to tread. And all for characters who often feel less "robust" (because they are missing the little bangles that get added in classes that aren't worth taking as independent skills), or less comprehensive (usually because most classless systems are vulnerable to hyper-specialization). So, while I recognize the theoretical allure of classless systems... that way lies madness...
What classless systems have you used, Eirikrautha? I've enjoyed RuneQuest, HarnMaster, Burning Wheel, GURPS, Savage Worlds, Hero System, Amber Diceless, Ars Magica, Pendragon, Mouse Guard, and Dresden Files -- plus probably a bunch of others more for one-shots and such. I have some complaints about each of them, but I don't find that they're inferior to class-based.
Which ones have you played?
I find that while technically it's possible to create an effective hyper-specialized character in most classless systems, in my experience that hasn't happened. Mostly the players have created more believable and robust characters, and the times when they don't, usually the GM steps in to disallow it. ("No, you can't put all your points into just Strength and Sword.") In any system (including class-based), it's important for the GM to be willing to say "no" to certain characters -- but moreso for point-based classless systems.
I've played all of the ones you've mentioned (sans the last two), plus several sci-fi and supers games that are classless or semi-classless.
I must say, your whole "I haven't seen it; therefore it must be rare or nonexistent" shtick is getting old. It's pretty much your response to everything, instead of directly addressing any points made. I've had quite a few classless games go off of the rails because different players approached their characters with different build philosophies. That happens in class-based systems, too, but generally only the modern ones (no one complained about "builds" in AD&D, because there was no such thing). Would you like to address any points, for once?
And GM fiat is a poor substitute for broken mechanics. A great DM can make any game playable, but that doesn't make every playable game great.
QuoteOh, I can see the appeal. It's just that the reality is that a "good" classless system is unachievable. A "good enough" system, however.
It's like creating a gish. You can make a character that serves as a secondary fighter or a secondary magic user, but will never shine as either. Because creating a true gish would outshine every other class. So, just from a balance perspective, you have to design the mechanics such that any fighter-magic user combo becomes less than the sum of its parts.
If you use D&D like fantasy with very strong divide between fight and spellcasting then yes. But of course that's just small fraction of possible fantasy settings to try.
The most obvious solution is synergy of powers - gish is not using mediocre spellcasting and mediocre hack and slashing - he use both to get some unique effects on par with classic classes. Which is not really weird solution - gishing is common in literature.
QuoteThe same is true with classless systems. There are synergies that can be achieved (and, most importantly, balanced) via classes that aren't going to happen via skills. Or, if they do, those synergies are so much better that the relevant skils are just plain better when taken together, at which point they might as well be a class. So it's a very fine line to tread. And all for characters who often feel less "robust" (because they are missing the little bangles that get added in classes that aren't worth taking as independent skills), or less comprehensive (usually because most classless systems are vulnerable to hyper-specialization). So, while I recognize the theoretical allure of classless systems... that way lies madness...
Which matters if you play dungeon crawls or heavy tactical RPG's.
But that's not the only option. My philosophy is that any skill should be useful, any attribute be hindrace if lacking. I don't care wheter you are fighter, wizard or monk - Low Charisma is gonna hinders you in gameplay.
QuoteI've had quite a few classless games go off of the rails because different players approached their characters with different build philosophies.
Could you get some specific example.
QuoteAnd GM fiat is a poor substitute for broken mechanics. A great DM can make any game playable, but that doesn't make every playable game great.
To certain degree it's inavoidable. If your classless PC is specialising in something very much leaving other skills aside let's say Thievery.
Then making everything solvable by Thievery gonna make him outshine rest of a team. Making nothing solvable by Thievery... other way round.
And in class based systems it still exist. Depending on what classes are on board you can either hinder game for some PC's or make them stars of the show.
Push constantly heavily magic resistant oponents on your team and your evoker Wizard PC may gonna get bit cranky :P
Quote from: Jam The MF on October 30, 2021, 12:55:58 AM
I'm sure there must already be such a game in print?
Traveller.
Quote from: Wrath of God on November 09, 2021, 04:40:30 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 08, 2021, 10:23:47 PM
Quote from: jhkim on November 08, 2021, 08:15:37 PM
In any system (including class-based), it's important for the GM to be willing to say "no" to certain characters -- but moreso for point-based classless systems.
And GM fiat is a poor substitute for broken mechanics. A great DM can make any game playable, but that doesn't make every playable game great.
To certain degree it's inavoidable. If your classless PC is specialising in something very much leaving other skills aside let's say Thievery.
Then making everything solvable by Thievery gonna make him outshine rest of a team. Making nothing solvable by Thievery... other way round.
And in class based systems it still exist. Depending on what classes are on board you can either hinder game for some PC's or make them stars of the show.
Push constantly heavily magic resistant oponents on your team and your evoker Wizard PC may gonna get bit cranky :P
Following up on Wrath of God's point.... In a board game, game balance can be mechanically enforced within the fixed possibilities. In a role-playing game with completely open possibilities, I don't think it's possible except by active GM intervention -- either by restricting the characters, or by tailoring the adventures to suit the balance of characters.
Typically in class-based systems, balance works by having all adventures conform to a certain pattern - with a certain balance of combat, stealth, and other challenges. But a classless system allow characters tailored to different sorts of adventures. For example, I played in a Burning Wheel campaign set in Harn, which was about establishing a Ilviran church in a new city. For that, we all had some social skills - and my character was specialized in Duel of Wits. In typical D&D adventures, our characters would be not balanced with each other - but we fit the campaign fairly well.
One could have a fantasy campaign that's entirely set behind enemy lines in Mordor or the equivalent - so everyone needs to sneak about. In a given class-based system, many classes just wouldn't be workable for this, and others would be better or worse suited. In a classless system, though, all the players can take suitable stealth and/or disguise skills in addition to their other abilities.
That flexibility comes at a price of needing more oversight of character creation. It's a matter of opinion whether the flexibility is worth it. Personally, I enjoy both class-based and non-class-based.
QuoteOne could have a fantasy campaign that's entirely set behind enemy lines in Mordor or the equivalent - so everyone needs to sneak about. In a given class-based system, many classes just wouldn't be workable for this, and others would be better or worse suited. In a classless system, though, all the players can take suitable stealth and/or disguise skills in addition to their other abilities.
That flexibility comes at a price of needing more oversight of character creation. It's a matter of opinion whether the flexibility is worth it. Personally, I enjoy both class-based and non-class-based.
TBH even in class based systems you can end with PC's in theory well balanced with team, but much worse considering campaign nature.