TheRPGSite

As in the thread. Does any of that exist, or shall I be forced to work with the ACK, Rules Cyclopedia and Game of Thrones to construct a bit of my own? :D

RuneQuest Empires. Its precisely what you're looking for.

$1. Drivethru (actually, $0.75 during the sale).

See The Design Mechanism's site on DTRPG for details.

Quote from: Loz;520326RuneQuest Empires. Its precisely what you're looking for.

$1. Drivethru (actually, $0.75 during the sale).

See The Design Mechanism's site on DTRPG for details.

Thanks, although I can't find it on DTRP (it does not show in the research). Got a link per any chance?

Quote from: Rincewind1;520333Thanks, although I can't find it on DTRP (it does not show in the research). Got a link per any chance?

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=82514

Quote from: Sigmund;520340http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=82514

Thanks mate.

Thanks Sigmund - you beat me to it.

Rincewind, whilst you're there and with money to burn, why not buy the entire RQ Archives catalogue that's there on offer? Can you possibly go wrong at a mere 75 cents a book?

:D

Quote from: Loz;520382Thanks Sigmund - you beat me to it.

Rincewind, whilst you're there and with money to burn, why not buy the entire RQ Archives catalogue that's there on offer? Can you possibly go wrong at a mere 75 cents a book?

:D

I'll think about that - the problem is lack of time for reading all that, though :(.

No problem gents, I'm always eager to spread the word of RQ/BRP whenever I can :) Plus, the less Loz has to do helping folks out like this, maybe the sooner we can get RQ6 in our hot little hands :D

Quote from: Rincewind1;520383I'll think about that - the problem is lack of time for reading all that, though :(.

I'd say get 'em and read at your own pace. the price can't be beat, and IMO RQ is the best fantasy game ever. Easily worth 75 cents a book for the pdfs. So good I sprang for most of the line in hard cover, and still haven't read it all, but damn glad I have 'em anyway. I'd also recommend a print copy of Openquest, which as Pseudo would tell you is much better for playing online due to it's simplified combat system. I'm combining Empires with Blood Magic for Legend as well as some tweaking of my own to adapt Birthright to Runequest, which IMO is a much better system for capturing the theme and flavor of Birthright than any D&D version.

MRQII Empires is pretty damn good. It's a tad more abstract than D&D RC or ACKS, and closer to Kevin Crawford's An Echo Resounding, or to Greg Stolze's Reign, in this regard.

It's also rife with good gaming ideas about running an "Imperial" campaign, with PCs as agents of a ruler or faction, even if you don't want to touch the actual domain management system.

Mulling over the notion of running a MRQII Song of Ice and Fire game, I've been considering mashing up Factions and Provinces from MRQII Empires to emulate the myriad Houses of Westeros.

Quote from: Sigmund;520601I'm combining Empires with Blood Magic for Legend as well as some tweaking of my own to adapt Birthright to Runequest, which IMO is a much better system for capturing the theme and flavor of Birthright than any D&D version.

How's that coming along, BTW? I read it on another thread that the hereditary/bloodline magic part got axed. How are you doing bloodlines? And most importantly, how are you integrating bloodlines with the rulership mechanics, if at all?

Quote from: The Butcher;520823How's that coming along, BTW? I read it on another thread that the hereditary/bloodline magic part got axed. How are you doing bloodlines? And most importantly, how are you integrating bloodlines with the rulership mechanics, if at all?

I'm still waiting to receive my Blood Magic book before I proceed. I pre-ordered a print copy, and cheap-ass Mongoose doesn't include pdfs with their print products, so of course despite spending more for a print book I have to wait for who knows how long before seeing the book while all the pdf customers have had access to their books for awhile now. I'm going to see what all the book does contain before deciding to continue, but I can say that I've pretty much figured that buying into being a scion will require a "pact" similar to buying into a cult. In fact, I'm probably going to make each bloodline a separate cult that a player buys their character into at chargen, but that also can be bought into through blood theft. One difference might be that True Wizards can use the POW invested in the pact for High Magic... although I'm not sure if that'll be default or perhaps the function of a blood power. I'm not going to try to map blood powers directly over I don't think, just create a list (probably from heroic abilities and perhaps spells) for each bloodline cult. I've also been investigating recently how I might be able to model the Realm Magic and leylines in RQ. I'm hoping there will at least be something in Blood Magic that I can use to model Blood Theft. I'm also thinking that it might be possible to just port the mass combat system directly over to RQ from BR, with the main change being to Realm Magic. That will take more thinking/reading/testing though. Do you have any thoughts or ideas on it? I'd love to have some input. I know Silverlion is also interested in this specific adaption.

This thread has been officially hijacked by the Birthright Liberation Front. Free Anuire!

Are you reimagining bloodlines as cults, or merely using a cult-like mechanic for each bloodline? If it's the latter, I like the idea.

As for Realm Magic, Empires has got you covered, hasn't it?

Quote from: The Butcher;520840This thread has been officially hijacked by the Birthright Liberation Front. Free Anuire!

POWER TO THE PEOPLE! Well... the right people anyway...

QuoteAre you reimagining bloodlines as cults, or merely using a cult-like mechanic for each bloodline? If it's the latter, I like the idea.

I've thought about it both ways actually. We are talking about Gods here after all. Dead Gods, but still Gods. Having them be cults of the Dead Gods isn't entirely unreasonable, but because the Gods are dead, they can't work exactly the same, so it's most likely going to be kinda in between your two options.

QuoteAs for Realm Magic, Empires has got you covered, hasn't it?

Yeah in a way, but I just want to make sure a similar dynamic is maintained... nothing that would throw off the balance of power as well as making sure it would work with whatever mass combat system I would use. I've only skimmed Empires so far since I've been focusing so far more on how the blood strength and blood abilities would work. It might work fine as is. I'd like to still be able to use the map and army cards from my BR boxed set, but I'll toss them aside in the interest of playability if have to. You have me wanting to revisit this now instead of waiting for my book to arrive :) I have my entire RQ2 collection and my BR box set sitting right next to my bed, so I'll check this stuff out more when I get home and post again then.

Quote from: The Butcher;520840As for Realm Magic, Empires has got you covered, hasn't it?

Actually, yes it does look as if Empires has the realm magic covered. I had never read that section before... looks like I'm going to have to break down and give Empires a complete read-through. Been spending too much time fiddling with BASH and Stormrift :D Reading Empires thoroughly will keep me pumped until Blood Magic arrives.

I like the system in Empires, and can see it working just fine for the most part, but I will want to somehow tie the REL to the ruler's Bloodline str somehow, yet still allow the non-magic-using ruler the ability to grant a wizard the ability to make use of the realm's REL. I also will probably want to include the ley-line limitation for casting realm spells. Maybe if the actual magic points used for powering spells is separated from the REL, it will enable stuff like running ley-lines into neighboring realms and such. Then there's the matter of how should the ruler's blood strength affect the realm's characteristics, if it should at all. My first thought was to have it only affect the REL, but for non-magic-using rulers it seems that would be a bit unfair. Perhaps each realm can have a base set of stats and different kinds of scions can add bonuses to various realm stats based on the scion's blood str, derivation, and perhaps even specific blood abilities. What are your thoughts so far Butcher? Oh, and we really need to get Silverlion in on this, I'll PM him.

Argh. This thread makes me want to read Empires now (the pdf of which has been opened maybe once since purchase). :cool:

Too many things to read...

Quote from: Sigmund;520873I like the system in Empires, and can see it working just fine for the most part, but I will want to somehow tie the REL to the ruler's Bloodline str somehow, yet still allow the non-magic-using ruler the ability to grant a wizard the ability to make use of the realm's REL. I also will probably want to include the ley-line limitation for casting realm spells. Maybe if the actual magic points used for powering spells is separated from the REL, it will enable stuff like running ley-lines into neighboring realms and such. Then there's the matter of how should the ruler's blood strength affect the realm's characteristics, if it should at all. My first thought was to have it only affect the REL, but for non-magic-using rulers it seems that would be a bit unfair. Perhaps each realm can have a base set of stats and different kinds of scions can add bonuses to various realm stats based on the scion's blood str, derivation, and perhaps even specific blood abilities. What are your thoughts so far Butcher? Oh, and we really need to get Silverlion in on this, I'll PM him.

In Empires, a realm's Magic Points are tied to Religion and Size, and are supposed to reflect the strength of your population's belief on the supernatural.

That's not quite the same as the Birthright system. In fact, Birthright is remarkably oblivious to populations, and very much "the King and the Land are one!"-centric. Ley line/magic holdings are supposed to reflect the magic potential of the land itself, and have nothing to do with population. In fact, I could be misremembering, but I think high population levels -- reflected by law, temple and guild holdings -- actually precluded high ley line holdings, encouraging mage regents to leave a couple of provinces unsettled and depopulated as "ley line batteries". Of course, low law holdings leave a province rather vulnerable to being grabbed by a hostile neighbor, but there's your balance right there.

So what we're dealing with is two systems built on fairly distinct metaphysical assumptions, but I suppose the answer is easy. You could, as you've mentioned, handwave these differences away and somehow tie REL to bloodline strength. Or if you want to hew closer to Cerilian metaphysics, you could totally dissociate Magic Points from REL and SIZ, and maybe give each province a fixed Magic Point value based on population levels and settlement (the lower, the better), historical events ("this is where old King Willem battled the armies of a mighty awnshegh 200 years ago, and slew the abomination"), and assorted weird stuff.

Quote from: The Butcher;520940In Empires, a realm's Magic Points are tied to Religion and Size, and are supposed to reflect the strength of your population's belief on the supernatural.

That's not quite the same as the Birthright system. In fact, Birthright is remarkably oblivious to populations, and very much "the King and the Land are one!"-centric. Ley line/magic holdings are supposed to reflect the magic potential of the land itself, and have nothing to do with population. In fact, I could be misremembering, but I think high population levels -- reflected by law, temple and guild holdings -- actually precluded high ley line holdings, encouraging mage regents to leave a couple of provinces unsettled and depopulated as "ley line batteries". Of course, low law holdings leave a province rather vulnerable to being grabbed by a hostile neighbor, but there's your balance right there.

So what we're dealing with is two systems built on fairly distinct metaphysical assumptions, but I suppose the answer is easy. You could, as you've mentioned, handwave these differences away and somehow tie REL to bloodline strength. Or if you want to hew closer to Cerilian metaphysics, you could totally dissociate Magic Points from REL and SIZ, and maybe give each province a fixed Magic Point value based on population levels and settlement (the lower, the better), historical events ("this is where old King Willem battled the armies of a mighty awnshegh 200 years ago, and slew the abomination"), and assorted weird stuff.

Indeed and that's the biggest point of difference between the two systems. I like the idea of disconnecting the MPs from REL and basing them on a new system, but the new system has to be written rather than just adapting what's already there. I have no trouble making new systems but I've been trying to see if I can work with the systems already in place first... some sort of adaption. I was thinking maybe that attaching the MPs to the ruler would be good enough, but maybe not. I'll have to think about it. The whole progress is bad for magic thing was never my favorite bit about BR anyway, but it was kinda a major part of the "balance" issue... especially at the realm level. Perhaps it can be handled by some sort of "point cap" where raising other stat levels level would automatically reduce the REL (and vice-versa).

Interesting, I don't have Empires. I'll have to grab it, and I have Legend rather than MRQ2. Still, most of it is workable. I was thinking of giving the characters two Pow scores. One there personal one tied to themselves and used for magic if a caster, or to empower the land (by sacrifice of blood through ancient rituals) to help keep lands fertile, etc etc.

The second is tied to the land and its various factions/population/life which is used for Realm magic, BUT Bloodline strength would need to impact that.

Yeah, BR runs mage magic and god magic separate -- and opposing. Population and civilization, unless you're elven, detracts from mebghail(?) (mable) which fuels mage magic. Temples operate off of population popularity, like guilds and law, while also having human demigods replace the Dead Gods. And that balances out mage magic influence. Also province, guilds, law, and temple can raise their own armies, but given source can summon armies, they tend to hold each other in check.

I'm intrigued by this conversion. I'll have to look for a MRQII book in the used book stores. I'd get the PDF, but I find that I never read what I get PDF anyway, so why waste time and money. Must be my silly bibliophile ways.

Set up a Mebhgail (MGL) or Ley Line (LLN) attribute for each province, that decreases as REL, MIL, WTH and others increase.

Derive Magic Points for each province from this score (treat it as the province's POW). There's your arcane magic fuel.

The REL-based Magic Points become Faith Points, and are used exclusively for divine magic.

Done, and done. What do you think?

Quote from: The Butcher;521080Set up a Mebhgail (MGL) or Ley Line (LLN) attribute for each province, that decreases as REL, MIL, WTH and others increase.

Derive Magic Points for each province from this score (treat it as the province's POW). There's your arcane magic fuel.

The REL-based Magic Points become Faith Points, and are used exclusively for divine magic.

Done, and done. What do you think?

I think I like it. Wasn't too keen on creating more attributes when I first started thinking about this, but by doing so you solve a problem that I don't think can be solved easily in any fashion, and the extra attributes are at least relatively simple and fit in with the system. I'm thinking what's needed is just the MGL and FTH attributes, and ley lines can simply be the conduit through which MGL is channeled. To use a province's MGL a leyline must be created to access it. Think that would be good enough?

Also, the scion can "invest" a blooded wizard (or priest) with the power to access the MGL or FTH and cast realm rituals if the scion is not a wizard or priest themselves.

The levels of magic are easy. The Common magic can be used by anyone with the proper training (magicians). Divine magic also can be used as is. Sorcery is the one that the character must be blooded to use. To be blooded, the character must dedicate POW, with the amount dedicated determining the bloodline strength just like making a pact with a living cult determines "rank". Each "rank" in the bloodline cult can grant access to more or stronger bloodline powers. I was thinking at first that I would allow the dedicated POW to be used still for magic, but perhaps it would be better to keep it consistent with the existing rule and make dedicated POW unusable. Then we can create a blood power that frees the dedicated POW for use by sorcerers. This would make blood theft even more attractive and tempting to blooded wizards because it will allow scions to permanently increase their POW score and perhaps gain another blood power as well (either rolled randomly or determined by how much POW they have gained). Heroic abilities serve great as blood powers, with perhaps a few more powers custom converted for BR to RQ thrown in.

I have some ideas for blood theft and stuff, but I don't want to put 'em out yet until I think some more on them.

Not contributing anything of note, just clarifying that Law holding v. Province itself tends to be also separate. I like to think of it as the Count or Governor having access to the local military or national guard, and that being Province. Whereas the Law holdings are more civil, being judges, constabulary, wardens, mayors, and other civilian bureaucracy.

I like to remember that BR is a 5-way contest where the only demarcated lines of power on the map are the Provincial military. The other four: civil law, ecclesiastic law, commercial law, and "nature's law" are all separate blobs that can cross borders. It's an elegant system to emulate the social conflicts of life.

The magic based on REL & SIZE is obviously fit only really for Gloratha, because as I understand, the religious cults there teach people magic.

In a setting with, for example, academic magic, I'd suggest tying the Magic to Wealth & Size, or Communication & Size.

Quote from: Opaopajr;521186Not contributing anything of note, just clarifying that Law holding v. Province itself tends to be also separate. I like to think of it as the Count or Governor having access to the local military or national guard, and that being Province. Whereas the Law holdings are more civil, being judges, constabulary, wardens, mayors, and other civilian bureaucracy.

I like to remember that BR is a 5-way contest where the only demarcated lines of power on the map are the Provincial military. The other four: civil law, ecclesiastic law, commercial law, and "nature's law" are all separate blobs that can cross borders. It's an elegant system to emulate the social conflicts of life.

Noted :) Just getting into thinking about this stuff in more detail. My primary concern up until now has been the character itself, and getting those systems converted. That aspect is almost to the point now where i could run it as a standard setting, not using the realm level game, which is rockin. When I was a player in BR, I'd say at least 70% of the time we played it as a standard setting, no realm level play, so that's my first priority to run it as well. The realm stuff adds a great dimension to the game though, and with all the realm level games/supps coming out lately, I'm even more interested in that level currently. Just have to read up on it again from my BR rule book. My college classes make that a more drawn-out process than I would wish for normally :(

Quote from: Rincewind1;521195The magic based on REL & SIZE is obviously fit only really for Gloratha, because as I understand, the religious cults there teach people magic.

In a setting with, for example, academic magic, I'd suggest tying the Magic to Wealth & Size, or Communication & Size.

With Birthright, however, arcane magic is also tied to the land and the ability of the ruler, through their bloodline strength, to channel the power of the land. Divine Right in this setting is literal, as each ruler must inherit a portion of a dead god's power. As butcher was pointing out, the more developed and populated a province is, the weaker it's magical strength, but the stronger it's law, wealth and potentially it's religious holdings. So wizard rulers tend to keep their realms as "backwater" realms, lightly populated and under-developed so that their magical strength at the realm level is high, where military, mercantile, and religious rulers tend to more fully develop their realms to increase their preferred holdings. Then some rulers tend to try to create a balance, keeping some provinces underdeveloped and then building up others. I have been waffling back and forth about whether I wanted to maintain this aspect of "balance" in my personal conversion, but have been leaning lately towards yes in that regard as it's a check and balance on each individual realm and is what perpetuates the stalemate across the continent, even among the Awnsheigh.

There is a magic academy, however, that is located in the imperial city. It teaches common magic to anyone of sufficient intelligence to learn, as well as sorcery to blooded characters. Not all characters with bloodlines in Birthright are rulers. One has to have a bloodline to be a ruler, but there are more blooded folks than there are realms, so many blooded younger sons and such become adventurers in order to perhaps carve out a realm of their own from the territories of enemies or Awnsheigh, and only characters with bloodlines can learn and use sorcery.

On a side note, I've also considered, down the line, fleshing out at least the northern portion of the southern continent and creating realms there in need of blooded rulers.

Quote from: Sigmund;521243With Birthright, however, arcane magic is also tied to the land and the ability of the ruler, through their bloodline strength, to channel the power of the land. Divine Right in this setting is literal, as each ruler must inherit a portion of a dead god's power. As butcher was pointing out, the more developed and populated a province is, the weaker it's magical strength, but the stronger it's law, wealth and potentially it's religious holdings. So wizard rulers tend to keep their realms as "backwater" realms, lightly populated and under-developed so that their magical strength at the realm level is high, where military, mercantile, and religious rulers tend to more fully develop their realms to increase their preferred holdings. Then some rulers tend to try to create a balance, keeping some provinces underdeveloped and then building up others. I have been waffling back and forth about whether I wanted to maintain this aspect of "balance" in my personal conversion, but have been leaning lately towards yes in that regard as it's a check and balance on each individual realm and is what perpetuates the stalemate across the continent, even among the Awnsheigh.

There is a magic academy, however, that is located in the imperial city. It teaches common magic to anyone of sufficient intelligence to learn, as well as sorcery to blooded characters. Not all characters with bloodlines in Birthright are rulers. One has to have a bloodline to be a ruler, but there are more blooded folks than there are realms, so many blooded younger sons and such become adventurers in order to perhaps carve out a realm of their own from the territories of enemies or Awnsheigh, and only characters with bloodlines can learn and use sorcery.

On a side note, I've also considered, down the line, fleshing out at least the northern portion of the southern continent and creating realms there in need of blooded rulers.

I was making more of a general suggestion, then Birthright one ;). Never read Birthright, but funny thing - for my GoT inspired setting for Savage Worlds, I made something similar - all noble bloodlines came from dragons, and in order to be knight of the realm, you needed to have your power awoken (if you were noble - born but without power, you were out of line of succession).

Quote from: Rincewind1;521245I was making more of a general suggestion, then Birthright one ;). Never read Birthright, but funny thing - for my GoT inspired setting for Savage Worlds, I made something similar - all noble bloodlines came from dragons, and in order to be knight of the realm, you needed to have your power awoken (if you were noble - born but without power, you were out of line of succession).

Ah :) Birthright has always been my favorite D&D setting, followed closely by Dark Sun. However, the tone of Birthright is, IMO, far better suited to RQ than D&D, hence the conversion. I've thought too that Savage Worlds might be a better system for Dark Sun than D&D, but I could be wrong on that one.

Quote from: Sigmund;521250Ah :) Birthright has always been my favorite D&D setting, followed closely by Dark Sun. However, the tone of Birthright is, IMO, far better suited to RQ than D&D, hence the conversion. I've thought too that Savage Worlds might be a better system for Dark Sun than D&D, but I could be wrong on that one.

SW isn't really that well of a fit for post - apocalypse games, and that's what I always envisioned DS as closest relative (most importantly because very detailed resource management, which for me is a core of PA games, would go poorly with SWs).

I mostly used SWs because it was the only system I owed at the time, that was just mechanic, no setting :D. It didn't do that bad for such a GoT conversion as I said, though.

Quote from: Rincewind1;521253SW isn't really that well of a fit for post - apocalypse games, and that's what I always envisioned DS as closest relative (most importantly because very detailed resource management, which for me is a core of PA games, would go poorly with SWs).

I mostly used SWs because it was the only system I owed at the time, that was just mechanic, no setting :D. It didn't do that bad for such a GoT conversion as I said, though.

I see the PA in Dark Sun, but it has always seemed to me more of a S&S game than PA, which is why it seems to me SW might be a better fit, but as I have not looked into it seriously, i could be wrong there.

Perhaps we're both right ;).

I do plan a certain interesting game right now - basically, the campaign will feature 2 parties, both composed of 3 or 4 players (I have 5 right now, and need to find 1 or 3 more until Sunday), who will have control of 2 different kingdoms being a part of Salid (my take on Seleucid) Empire, and strive to make their kingdoms as powerful as possible - while of course, being opposed to each other.

And unknown to poor players, the Emperor is about to die...

Quote from: Rincewind1;521273Perhaps we're both right ;).

I do plan a certain interesting game right now - basically, the campaign will feature 2 parties, both composed of 3 or 4 players (I have 5 right now, and need to find 1 or 3 more until Sunday), who will have control of 2 different kingdoms being a part of Salid (my take on Seleucid) Empire, and strive to make their kingdoms as powerful as possible - while of course, being opposed to each other.

And unknown to poor players, the Emperor is about to die...

Most likely the case :D

Sounds fun, let us know how it goes.

So I had an epiphany last night. I think what I'm going to do about blood powers is use the tables right out of the BR rule book for Bloodline Strength, Derivation, and number and strength of powers. I'll detour right after that and define minor powers as Heroic Abilities with a cost in Hero Pts of 8, major powers as those with a cost of 10, and great powers as those with a cost of 12. Not sure what, other than being used for the number and strength of powers table and blood theft, the numerical Bloodline Strength score is going to be used for yet though. I'm also going to allow some divine spells as Bloodline powers, although they will all be great powers. Also, I'm going to preserve the 1 magic point cost to activate the powers as per the Heroic Abilities rules, including with the divine spell-based ones. I'm even considering going a step farther and saying minor abilities cost 1 mp to activate, major cost 2, and great cost 3. Preserving the system from BR this far also means Blood theft can work almost identical to the BR rule book. The only deviation here is that I am going to give every scion a "Blood Theft" skill that is used when fighting another blooded character and they are going for the kill, which they will roll against to see if they pull off the theft correctly. The starting level for the skill will be something like 10, and then they can practice and raise it like any other skill. The Gorgon will be really scary good at it :D Thoughts so far?

Found this free pdf...

http://www.yourgamesnow.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_19_38&products_id=363

... that looks to me to be perfect for adding some very flavorful blood powers to the conversion. Any of ya'all come up with anything more on this yet, and what do you think of what I last posted about using the blood strength straight from the BR rule book? I don't see why it wouldn't work, but maybe one of ya'all can see something I'm not.