TheRPGSite

Surprised I haven't seen more talk about the Runequest quickstart rules that just go released for free download here. (http://www.chaosium.com/blog/runequest-quickstart-is-here/)

Gonna give them a look over, any initial thoughts?
 
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I've avoided making comment, to be honest, because I don't want to prejudice or attack Chaosium's enthusiasm. But....

I've seen so many versions of RuneQuest rules over the last few years, I'm just jaded by it. They've got a few things to look at with the magic/rune stuff, but honestly its just a bit of 'same old'. I can't honestly see the point of returning to things like the Resistance table either, when they've already got now included an opposed roll rule already. Why have both?

It's a nicely done QuickStart that does the job of introducing the rules well and has a tidy and from what I understand a fun and interesting adventure.

The artwork included is in my opinion very good and evokes what I assume is the flavour and feeling of the setting (a Gloranthaphile might disagree).

Still prefer Mythras but these core books will end up on my shelf and I'll definitely dip into the occasional Glorantha game.

It's a solid QuickStart. The production value is solid. The art is good. You can see the evolution that comes from the original versions and does not come from the last decade of Runequest. For folks who like that, I think it's worth it. And really, free download isn't a bad deal at all. I can see stealing Runes as they are as the basis for a magic system that might look something like Scion.

I personally dislike the ability result table and the resistance table. Seems like it is bulky and duplicative of text they have already. I'm not sure I'm fond of the math as a whole - not for the quantity, but rather that it seems a touch inelegant st points to me. I'm still struggling with the words on that.

 I do wonder why they moved back from the Mythras rules - seems like they could have stuck with them and made a Gloranthan supplement. The stated reasons about complex combat are easily surmounted, as shown by M-Space. Instead, they said Glorantha = Runequest and there cannot be a Runequest: Glorantha, then promptly exactly did that and decided it was ok to do Runequest without Glorantha too. This puts them in the unfortunate position of competing with the former version, which has a head start, is pretty well thought of, and is also putting out supplements based on Mythic versions of earth.

Oh well, will probably just swipe bits from it :)

I'm completely lost at this point as to what's what with runequest. There seem to be ten thousand different iterations of runequest and/or glorantha that I'm completely nonplussed.

Still as long as those hopeless people at Mongoose are never allowed anywhere near it (or anything)... :D

For me, honestly, I'm beginning to feel that I have enough RuneQuest in my rpg collection, and I'm more into variants like Pendragon, or even derivatives like WFRP.

Wow, I wonder what the rules are like!  Ooh... maybe it'll use weird dice and cards and stuff!  Are there Feats???? Please let there be Feats! We don't have enough games designed around collecting Feats.

I bought Mythras and I think it's a very slick game indeed. A little too crunchy for my tastes... As people have already mentioned I've more RQ type stuff then I could shake a stick at. I believe it was Chaoseum's goal was to make a 'lighter' version of Mythras. I'm not too sure why, as I there's a lot of that in their back catalog ($$$$$$).

My two favorite iterations of the RQ System are OpenQuest II and the awfully named Magic World. They are both excellent especially if you're looking for that OSR goodness.

I'll have a gander at this all the same... But I'm just expecting 'more of the same'.

I think it's a really nicely done quickstart and introduction to the system. Personally I'm left cold by their turn back to 1982 RQ2 for a variety of reasons. There's nothing wrong with RQG but there's no compelling reason for me to play it when I already have a system (Mythras) that scratches the d100 itch more effectively and can be used for Glorantha with equal facility.

Quote from: The Exploited.;972989I believe it was Chaoseum's goal was to make a 'lighter' version of Mythras.

That wasn't the case. They threw out all of Mythras' improvements whether they made the system smoother (opposed rolls) or whether they added mechanical weight (combat effects). It is built as if if nothing had happened in the BRP world since Chaosium put out 2nd edition.

One of my concerns is that I really don't expect a lot of support. Chaosium has effectively been absorbed by Moon Design, and MD releases products at a glacial pace.

Quote from: Baulderstone;973007That wasn't the case. They threw out all of Mythras' improvements whether they made the system smoother (opposed rolls) or whether they added mechanical weight (combat effects). It is built as if if nothing had happened in the BRP world since Chaosium put out 2nd edition.

One of my concerns is that I really don't expect a lot of support. Chaosium has effectively been absorbed by Moon Design, and MD releases products at a glacial pace.

That's what I read in an online interview recently (I can't remember where I read it now). So I'm paraphrasing here, they wanted to make the game more 'accessible' and simpler back to the 2e roots. Mythras that they said, was a fine game but a little crunchy for some.

Thanks. I had forgotten about it, downloading now.

BTW, have you heard about Six Ages? It's the sequel to the King of Dragon Pass PC game that's coming later this year.

As with D&D, I already own a couple of version of Runequest and someone gave me Mythras and I don't play any of them and see no reason for yet another version of something that already worked fine for me when I used it.

Quote from: Dumarest;973014As with D&D, I already own a couple of version of Runequest and someone gave me Mythras and I don't play any of them and see no reason for yet another version of something that already worked fine for me when I used it.

You don't play Mythras? Pass the book forward to somebody who will.  Too good a game to sit on the shelf. :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;973018You don't play Mythras? Pass the book forward to somebody who will.  Too good a game to sit on the shelf. :D

The pdf is only 13 squid!

Quote from: TrippyHippy;972963I've avoided making comment, to be honest, because I don't want to prejudice or attack Chaosium's enthusiasm. But....

Same here. Also I don't really like the cover, is it final? I think Runequest 6 looked better.

I thought it seemed like a solid quickstart rules set. Good art, well explained. Looks like a fun adventure.

The thing for me and RQ is that I'm not as interested in d100 games than I am those with d20's. I own several versions of RQ, of Call of Cthulhu, Pendragon, and so on, but I prefer d20 versions of the same topic games. (Using a d20, not necessarily the "3E d20" things.) I know I could convert, but what would be the point?

It seems the point is getting an instant Glorantha game running, as RQ6/Mythras needed some tinkering on that front, and the alternative is Heroquest or 13th age. So for fans of Glorantha who miss the RQ engine it's great news, I think.

For those who are not fans of Glorantha though, I can't see the point.

Nice adventure, which I would expect from Jason.  Perfectly adaptable to a Conan campaign.

Very clean and concise presentation of the rules.  As a QS goes, this is very well done I think.

Light on even "4 year old" explanation of Glorantha terms though.  You have a badass warrior woman who rides a War Bison, but the first thing that pops into my mind is the PC asking "What does Orlanth Adventurous mean?"

I was hoping the new Rune system would be something more than just reskinned Passions, but they're not really.  The Passion system is a little different from Mythras, and arguably the stronger bonus they can give plays better to the whole Myth vibe of Glorantha, but without a cool new magic system to lift and bolt in, there's no reason to get this for me.

Quote from: The Exploited.;973020The pdf is only 13 squid!

Heh, I got a few copies of RQ6 and Mythras, hardcover, softcover and pdf.  I meant give to someone else who will use it. :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;973037Nice adventure, which I would expect from Jason.  Perfectly adaptable to a Conan campaign.

You are just inciting me now ;) I'll have to go read it in more detail.

Quote from: The Exploited.;973012That's what I read in an online interview recently (I can't remember where I read it now). So I'm paraphrasing here, they wanted to make the game more 'accessible' and simpler back to the 2e roots. Mythras that they said, was a fine game but a little crunchy for some.

Sure, they wanted to system to be lighter than Mythras. I was disagreeing with the statement "I believe it was Chaoseum's goal was to make a 'lighter' version of Mythras." I'd view a lighter version of Mythras as one that kept all the core mechanic assumptions of that game and jettisoned the more advanced combat and magic rules.

Basically, they wanted a lighter version than Mythras, not a lighter version of Mythras.

Quote from: John Scott;973021Same here. Also I don't really like the cover, is it final? I think Runequest 6 looked better.

Same here. Both this and RuneQuest 6 had covers riffing on the 2nd Edition cover, and RuneQuest 6 blows it away. I actually prefer the 2nd Edition cover to this as well. They should have gone with something fresh.

Quote from: Baulderstone;973007That wasn't the case. They threw out all of Mythras' improvements whether they made the system smoother (opposed rolls)

Opposed rolls are present in the new rules.

Quote from: CRKrueger;973040Heh, I got a few copies of RQ6 and Mythras, hardcover, softcover and pdf.  I meant give to someone else who will use it. :D

My bad... ! :)

There is a chance that Chaosium's PR-person might have deleted the bookmarks for this forum:D

The quickstart looks lovely. However, I have little interest in a Glorantha-focused game, and I don't need another set of d100-rules. I might still buy it, but it would be out of curiosity and fondness of reading instead of something to play.

I agree that Runequest 6/Mythras can be too heavy a system for many people, but it's easily pared down. Look at Mythras Imperative. They could have used that as a "core" rules and then added the runes and magic onto it. Or they could have lightened it up by moving the heavier elements like combat special effects and extra magic forms to an appendix or supplement as optional rules. They also could have kept the BRP Golden Book in print as their "main" rule book and easily have done a Runequest campaign book ala Mythic Iceland or Magic World. But whatever. Since I own Runequest 1, Runequest 2, MRQ2, Legend, Runequest 6, Mythras, Elric!, Magic World, BRP Gold, CoC, and Pendragon, I'm not sure it matters.

Quote from: baragei;973083There is a chance that Chaosium's PR-person might have deleted the bookmarks for this forum:D

The quickstart looks lovely. However, I have little interest in a Glorantha-focused game, and I don't need another set of d100-rules. I might still buy it, but it would be out of curiosity and fondness of reading instead of something to play.

More likely ban your Chaosium Forum account if MOB doesn't like what you say. :D

Quote from: markmohrfield;973072Opposed rolls are present in the new rules.

This just reinforces the point though. They have included the opposed rules, taken from RQ6 in an uncredited way, and then still returned to having a pretty redundant Resistance Table just for the purpose of nostalgia really. It's not necessary to have a seperate mechanism just for opposing Characteristic score, when you can just do them the same way as the skills. The new edition is really just borne out of a conceit, as most of the ideas in it could have easily been incorporated through the RuneQuest 6 rules as they were. OK, they wanted to fix the Magic/Rune systems in ways that were more in tune with Glorantha (as they were in the process of doing anyway) and some aspects of the combat and skill systems have returned, like strike ranks etc, but the core basis of the system is no more elegant or simpler than before, and still 90% compatible with the RQ/Mythras version.

Couple this with the announcement that they will be using it as the generic core of a series of non-Gloranthan material anyway, when they had previous made such a big deal of RQ being for Glorantha only, and the whole process seems to be contrary to what was argued through all the designer notes and other previous announcements.

I hope they are successful, I really do, but what with the layman's job already done on the Call of Cthulhu 7E rules, I am just not finding much I can genuinely be enthusiastic about with Chaosium's releases as it stands. I already have this BRP game through multiple editions already, is the truth of it. I do appreciate the Classic RuneQuest 2 release though, and I am thinking I might stick with that alongside my Guide to Glorantha set. If we are going to do nostalgia, do it right!

Quote from: CRKrueger;973094More likely ban your Chaosium Forum account if MOB doesn't like what you say. :D

Has that been an issue at BRP Central? I haven't hung out there much in the last year and half.

Quote from: markmohrfield;973072Opposed rolls are present in the new rules.

The Resistance Table is still kicking around though.

Quote from: Baulderstone;973120Has that been an issue at BRP Central? I haven't hung out there much in the last year and half.

Starts around post 64 here (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?36676-RQG-New-RuneQuest-edition-to-be-titled-RUNEQUEST-ROLEPLAYING-IN-GLORANTHA&p=956435&viewfull=1#post956435).

Quote from: CRKrueger;973125Starts around post 64 here (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?36676-RQG-New-RuneQuest-edition-to-be-titled-RUNEQUEST-ROLEPLAYING-IN-GLORANTHA&p=956435&viewfull=1#post956435).

Damn. That one of my regular haunts until the Chaosium takeover. There wasn't any particular issue for me. but the place didn't feel the same. I feel better about ditching the place now.

Quote from: Baulderstone;973127Damn. That one of my regular haunts until the Chaosium takeover. There wasn't any particular issue for me. but the place didn't feel the same. I feel better about ditching the place now.

"Losing" all record of my actual orders, with the inability to re-download is going a step beyond, even if you want to act bitchy, and probably actionable if I gave a shit enough to spend money on it, but I don't since I have multiple electronic copies anyway.

Do they send you receipts via email?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;973116This just reinforces the point though. They have included the opposed rules, taken from RQ6 in an uncredited way,

Opposed resolution rolls where first introduced to BRP in the Elric! rpg, which predates RQ6 by quit a bit.

QuoteCouple this with the announcement that they will be using it as the generic core of a series of non-Gloranthan material anyway, when they had previous made such a big deal of RQ being for Glorantha only

I think the idea was that the core rulebook should include the rules specific to a setting rather than a generic rule book with supplements adapting it to the setting, not that RQ was only for Glorantha.

Quote from: Raleel;973131Do they send you receipts via email?

Oh yeah, I got the receipt.  Just no record of any of my orders on their website.

Quote from: CRKrueger;973137Oh yeah, I got the receipt.  Just no record of any of my orders on their website.

Were these orders placed on the old Moon Design website? They are still in the process of transferring those. If you do need a replacement pdf, contact them directly.

Quote from: markmohrfield;973134Opposed resolution rolls where first introduced to BRP in the Elric! rpg, which predates RQ6 by quit a bit.

I've got Elric! actually, and they don't have opposed rolls in there as a point of fact (cite the page if they do). Moreover, Pendragon introduced opposed rolls in 1986, and they've been used in other games before. It's besides the point. This being that it was argued that the game system for RuneQuest 6 was too complex for what Chaosium designers wanted, and yet they've ended up using exactly the same method of resolution....plus the Resistance Table, which is what the opposed rules had been used to replace.

QuoteI think the idea was that the core rulebook should include the rules specific to a setting rather than a generic rule book with supplements adapting it to the setting, not that RQ was only for Glorantha.

Quote from: Jeff Richard in Designing The New RuneQuest Part 9Internally, we don't call this RuneQuest 7 because we find that misleading. Mongoose RuneQuest 1, MRQ2, and The Design Mechanism's RQ6 share a common design thread from MRQ1, but the new RQ is simply not from that line of development. Instead, it stems from RQ2 (with elements of RQ3) and then moves on, but does not build off the MRQ line. Our internally referring to the project as RQ4 makes that point (I suppose it could also be seen as RQ 2.5). But referring to it RQ7 is, in our opinion, inaccurate and ultimately misleading about the edition's actual antecedents.

We're also disinclined to call the new rules RuneQuest: Glorantha, since for us RuneQuest=Glorantha.

Quote from: Itachi;973013Thanks. I had forgotten about it, downloading now.

BTW, have you heard about Six Ages? It's the sequel to the King of Dragon Pass PC game that's coming later this year.

Awesome news, Dragon Pass is a great game even if my people kept starving to death because I suck at resource management.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;973212I've got Elric! actually, and they don't have opposed rolls in there as a point of fact (cite the page if they do). Moreover, Pendragon introduced opposed rolls in 1986, and they've been used in other games before. It's besides the point.

I was responding to your charge that they had taken the opposed resolution rules from RQ6 in an "uncredited way." As for Elric!, I don't currently own the rules but I am certain that they used opposed resolution. IIRC there was a page of spot rules somewhere in the book; they should be there.

Quote from: markmohrfield;973339I was responding to your charge that they had taken the opposed resolution rules from RQ6 in an "uncredited way." As for Elric!, I don't currently own the rules but I am certain that they used opposed resolution. IIRC there was a page of spot rules somewhere in the book; they should be there.

They are absolutely taken from RQ6 in an uncredited way. There are different ways you can do opposed rules, and RQ:G happens to take the same method as those used in RQ6. These rules are not present in Elric! (including in the spot rules - you have made a mistake here) and nor are they in RQ2 and RQ3 (which are supposed be the cited sources). The Mongoose RQ games sought to introduce opposed rolls to remove the need for a Resistance table, in the same manner that had been done in Pendragon (and was a later, clumsily delivered design goal of Call of Cthulhu 7E). RQ:G has sheepishly included this development, whilst returning the Resistance table.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;973343These rules are not present in Elric! (including in the spot rules - you have made a mistake here)

I remain convinced that they are present in Elric! (I acknowledge they are not in RQ2 or 3). I believe the FLGS has a copy and I'll check the next time I'm there.

Quote from: Voros;972957Gonna give them a look over, any initial thoughts?

What would make someone, who is just getting into the RPG hobby, choose to buy RuneQuest over any other RPG?

QuoteI remain convinced that they are present in Elric! (I acknowledge they are not in RQ2 or 3). I believe the FLGS has a copy and I'll check the next time I'm there.

I've just checked my copy of Elric!. Opposed rolls aren't used. The resistance table is, for resolving tests between characteristics; and in combat, the level of success of the attacker and defender is compared on a simple matrix to determine the outcome. But in terms of 'roll under but high' that RQ6/Mythras uses for some rolls (as well as quite a few other game systems, I might add), opposed rolls are not present in Elric!.

hmmm... not really interested.  It just seems redundant. For me, Mythras is kind of the final word in RQ, as the gold book is for BRP. I just don't see much need for "improvement."  I am also not a Glorantha fan.  If they made some really strong adventures, a bestiary, or a dedicated magic book I might bite.

Quote from: markmohrfield;973347I remain convinced that they are present in Elric! (I acknowledge they are not in RQ2 or 3). I believe the FLGS has a copy and I'll check the next time I'm there.

You may be confused with Elric of Melnibone, which was based upon Mongoose's RuneQuest, where they were used.

I'm in the same position as Madprofessor and others. I've got RQ6/Mythras, I've got the BGB, I've got Magic World and various Stormbringers/Elrics, CoC, Openquest and Renaissance... etc. AND I'm not a Gloranthaphile... so it's something of a non-event for me, but interesting non-Glorantha setting books might get my interest if Mythras doesn't get there first.
Add in that my Chaosium fanboy status has soured quite a bit and I don't really see much of my cash going towards them in the forseeable future.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;973385You may be confused with Elric of Melnibone, which was based upon Mongoose's RuneQuest, where they were used.

Correct. Mark, are you sure you're not getting Elric! (Chaosium) confused with Elric of Melnibone (Mongoose)?

Quote from: Loz;973351I've just checked my copy of Elric!. Opposed rolls aren't used. The resistance table is, for resolving tests between characteristics; and in combat, the level of success of the attacker and defender is compared on a simple matrix to determine the outcome. But in terms of 'roll under but high' that RQ6/Mythras uses for some rolls (as well as quite a few other game systems, I might add), opposed rolls are not present in Elric!.

The combat matrix is what I was referring to. I haven't checked Elric! yet, but I have checked Chaosium's "Big Gold Book" (copyright 2008) and it uses opposed resolution rolls for both combat and non-combat situations(pg 173), so Chaosium is still in the clear here.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;973348What would make someone, who is just getting into the RPG hobby, choose to buy RuneQuest over any other RPG?

Glorantha obviously. And they like BRP.

Quote from: markmohrfield;973405The combat matrix is what I was referring to. I haven't checked Elric! yet, but I have checked Chaosium's "Big Gold Book" (copyright 2008) and it uses opposed resolution rolls for both combat and non-combat situations(pg 173), so Chaosium is still in the clear here.

Mongoose Runequest (2006) also has opposed roll resolution, with highest of the two successes winning.

I'm getting quite the education in the evolution of BRP and Runequest.

Quote from: Raleel;973412Mongoose Runequest (2006) also has opposed roll resolution, with highest of the two successes winning.

Yep. It's where it was first a thing in RQ editions. It's just that the lead designer of this new RQ went to great pains to insist that the Mongoose versions of the game were non-entities in it's development - yet here is the same opposed rolls rule.

Quote from: markmohrfield;973405The combat matrix is what I was referring to. I haven't checked Elric! yet, but I have checked Chaosium's "Big Gold Book" (copyright 2008) and it uses opposed resolution rolls for both combat and non-combat situations(pg 173), so Chaosium is still in the clear here.

Big Gold Book is 2008.
Mongoose RuneQuest I is 2006.

Face it, any new development in the current RuneQuest was taken straight from the Editions they are claiming had no influence.

Pretty shitty, but then we knew that already, didn't we?

It's still a good adventure.

Quote from: markmohrfield;973405The combat matrix is what I was referring to. I haven't checked Elric! yet, but I have checked Chaosium's "Big Gold Book" (copyright 2008) and it uses opposed resolution rolls for both combat and non-combat situations(pg 173), so Chaosium is still in the clear here.

The combat matrix has been there since year dot as far as I can see for RQ/BRP, but it's not the same as the idea of an opposed roll - the compare-what-is-higher-but-still-successful idea. The opposed roll in the big gold book doesn't use this variation either, by the way. It compares the degrees of success (so lowest roll wins). The opposed roll rule used in RQ:G is lifted from the MRQ/RQ6/Mythras family of games, although the idea was in use in games like Pendragon previously too as well.

But it's not about whether or not the idea was plagiarised or not - I wouldn't care if it was. The issue for me is that the use of an opposed rolls such as this makes the use of Resistance table rolls redundant (archaic, even) - you don't need both for any mechanical reason. Including both, to me, just makes the game system more clunky than necessary, for reasons of nostalgia.  

It also makes myself, as a consumer, feel shortchanged, having invested in RQ6 not so long ago but then being told of the need to buy yet another new edition for no good reason, frankly. The various ideas and creative priorities in this new version of RQ could have been integrated into the old version without that much fuss and bother. RQ6 was still building momentum as a game, and Chaosium cut it short for reasons that, apparently, aren't really being held to now.

As I alluded to before, I don't think the new rules for CoC7E are that great either, but I'd have been a lot more pissed off if, as a consumer, I'd have waited for a late kickstarter to deliver and then have the new Chaosium team announce a new edition shortly after because they wanted to do it differently. They need to allow the new game space to grow. In a business sense, it's fair to make claim to their own IP and cut adrift The Design Mechanism (cruel as that may be), but to a consumer like me, I'm just not sure it's really acceptable if the changes don't seem particularly justifiable. I don't want to buy a new edition just for the sake of it.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;973454But it's not about whether or not the idea was plagiarised or not - I wouldn't care if it was. The issue for me is that the use of an opposed rolls such as this makes the use of Resistance table rolls redundant (archaic, even) - you don't need both for any mechanical reason. Including both, to me, just makes the game system more clunky than necessary, for reasons of nostalgia.  

Blackjack opposed rolls have been a common house rule in BRP/RQ since Pendragon came out. As you say, they make the Resistance Table largely redundant. It does mean that RQG has, if I count them correctly, five different ways of resolving issues: simple skill roll, opposed skill roll, combat skill roll matrix, resistance table and characteristic rolls. I find it hard to understand how that can be considered "light" or getting the system out of the way.

Thing is, if this had happened in 2003 I would be happy as Larry. Now I just feel somewhat grumpy about the whole thing.

Jeff at Chaosium talked a little about the reasons for both just recently, actually.

QuoteActually, the spread of result is why both are in. The two methods end up with different statistical spreads - and POW v POW has a certain expectation of result that we do not want to alter (and opposed resolution does alter that rather substantially - in a way that would change setting assumptions). Where the Resistance Table was traditionally used, we kept it. Where the Resistance Table was not used, and where just resolving the issue fast is desired (rather than preserving a certainly predictable spread of result), use a quick opposed resolution.

Make of that what you will.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;973454It also makes myself, as a consumer, feel shortchanged, having invested in RQ6 not so long ago but then being told of the need to buy yet another new edition for no good reason, frankly.

This is ultimately why I am irritated about the whole thing. We have had four editions in eleven years. Back before RQ:G was announced, I had people telling me they stayed away from RuneQuest because they were confused about editions, and Chaosium thought it was a good idea to throw another damn edition on the pile. And this is the least essential of them all. Even if Chaosium hadn't seemed so high-handed about the whole thing, it would have been irritating.

The move from MRQ 1 to 2 was a clear improvement, so that was a worthwhile jump. MRQ2 to RQ6 was a little more incremental, but still an improvement. It also benefitted from easy compatibility. If you stuck with your MRQ2 core, you could still easily use RQ6 supplements, and if you went to RQ6, all the MRQ2 supplements still work.

RQ:G is just different enough to have conversion issues, but it doesn't have any meaningful mechanical improvement. Seems a good place to stop buying RQ core books for now.

Quote from: Baulderstone;973527RQ:G is just different enough to have conversion issues, but it doesn't have any meaningful mechanical improvement. Seems a good place to stop buying RQ core books for now.

I had made that decision way back in 1980 when RQ2 came out... (though there weren't any conversion issues).

I have since softened and I did eventually acquire RQ2, though in part because I got a good deal on eBay getting RQ2, Cults of Prax, Cults of Terror, The RQ Companion, and most of the boxed sets (missing a few inserts and no TrollPak). I also bought all the RQ3 stuff back in the 90s. And I backed the kickstarter at the "all digital" level so I'm getting PDFs of everything as it comes out.

But I haven't sprung for any rules newer than Hero Quest (and I've dumped that and most of those supplements).

If I had been in a different financial position, I might have purchased MRQ and supplements.

Frank

I didn't know they decided Runequest = Glorantha. Does anyone know what that means, i.e., are the rules inextricably bound to the setting in such a way that using the game for anything but Glorantha would be a pain in the neck? I'm just curious as I have no interest in getting the game regardless.

Quote from: Dumarest;973561I didn't know they decided Runequest = Glorantha. Does anyone know what that means, i.e., are the rules inextricably bound to the setting in such a way that using the game for anything but Glorantha would be a pain in the neck? I'm just curious as I have no interest in getting the game regardless.

No idea. For almost 20 years. Stafford had been telling us that RuneQuest turned out not to be a good fit for Glorantha and that HeroQuest was the only game for the setting. I can only assume all the RQ2 Kickstarter money changed his mind.

Quote from: Baulderstone;973564No idea. For almost 20 years. Stafford had been telling us that RuneQuest turned out not to be a good fit for Glorantha and that HeroQuest was the only game for the setting. I can only assume all the RQ2 Kickstarter money changed his mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLWbp3w2eqM

Quote from: Dumarest;973561I didn't know they decided Runequest = Glorantha. Does anyone know what that means, i.e., are the rules inextricably bound to the setting in such a way that using the game for anything but Glorantha would be a pain in the neck? I'm just curious as I have no interest in getting the game regardless.

http://www.chaosium.com/blog/designing-the-new-runequest-part-9/ Runequest = Glorantha, and this only called Runequest (June, 2016)
http://www.chaosium.com/blog/rqgnew-runequest-edition-to-be-known-as-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha/ actually, no, Runequest: Roleplaying in Glorantha (April 2017)
http://www.chaosium.com/roleplaying-game-submissions/ search for "Runequest Fantasy Earth" but I will quote here for convenience

QuoteWe are also looking for supplements set in RuneQuest Fantasy Earth. These use the rules template presented in the new RuneQuest Mythic Iceland. These might be additional adventures set in the North Sea of the 9th or 10th centuries AD, using Icelandic Adventurers along the lines of Egil's Saga or the Viking Romances.

We are also looking for new settings for RuneQuest Fantasy Earth, such as Anglo-Saxon England, Constantinople under the Macedonian Dynasty, the Holy Roman Empire during the Ottonians, Abbasid Baghdad, Heian period Japan, the China of Di Renjie, etc. All RuneQuest Fantasy Earth settings should be set in a specific historical period and culture. Don't try to present everything - focus on a specific city or region. Be historically accurate without being pedantic.

A new setting book will need to include a short self-contained rules section that includes creating characters in that setting, the RQ game mechanics and combat system, magic for that setting (which should not be based on Rune spells or sorcery - the Gloranthan Runes are not present in fantasy Earth!).

it seems that between 6/2016 and 4/2017 there was a decision that the Runequest brand did not mean Glorantha explicitly, and could be expanded. I'm guessing the tie is only in the magic, as Mythras managed to divorce them pretty well when they lost the license, and I think the only specific thing they removed was runes.

I certainly hope they are highly compatible with Runequest 6/Mythras, as there is already

• a Mythic Britain book (apparently Anglo-Saxon, but I don't own it. Logres has Saxons for sure)
  
• a Mythic Rome (different period, post-Macedonian AFAIK) book
  
• as well as Mythic Constantinople (different period, post-Macedonian AFAIK)
  
• and Mythic Greece (also a different period, pre-Macedonian AFAIK) books in the works
  
• not to mention the Ultimate Three Kingdoms guide (kind of a meh supplement but cheap, also not the same period)
  
• and Samurai of Legend (actually in the Heian period)
  
• along with the related Vikings of Legend

All of these are from the MRQ/Legend/RQ6/Mythras progression.

Quote from: Dumarest;973578https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLWbp3w2eqM

there is also the small bit in there (almost throwaway actually) that MOB posted back in the CRKreuger SMASH thread that says TDM wasn't meeting their royalty targets. Business is business and all.

Quote from: Baulderstone;973564No idea. For almost 20 years. Stafford had been telling us that RuneQuest turned out not to be a good fit for Glorantha and that HeroQuest was the only game for the setting. I can only assume all the RQ2 Kickstarter money changed his mind.

I believe Greg has mostly said that RQ generally didn't model his preferred roleplaying style for Glorantha. Greg is a rules lite guy and has always wanted to have players experience higher powered things. Most people will agree that RQ starts having problems once you get well past 100% in skills or trying to stat out powerful beings like some of Gloranthan Heroes prominent in the Hero Wars era of the third age of Glorantha. Greg's never been a big number cruncher and cares about the story more, so he prefers a game system like HeroQuest. Greg hasn't changed his mind about RuneQuest because of the RQ Classic Kickstarter or anything else. I'm not his spokesman, so I don't want to put words into his mouth, but I have spoken with him about this in general a number of times and he is very content to have multiple game systems for Glorantha, especially HQ and RQ. Which you one choose depends on your playing style.

As for whether or not RQG will be hard to use for anything but Glorantha, that pretty much depends on how different your game world/setting is. Your mileage may vary. Part of that question will get answered when Mythic Iceland, which uses the the new RQG core engine, is published (Yes, a new edition is well underway, although we do not have a publication date for it yet).

Quote from: rmeints;973646I believe Greg has mostly said that RQ generally didn't model his preferred roleplaying style for Glorantha. Greg is a rules lite guy and has always wanted to have players experience higher powered things. Most people will agree that RQ starts having problems once you get well past 100% in skills or trying to stat out powerful beings like some of Gloranthan Heroes prominent in the Hero Wars era of the third age of Glorantha. Greg's never been a big number cruncher and cares about the story more, so he prefers a game system like HeroQuest. Greg hasn't changed his mind about RuneQuest because of the RQ Classic Kickstarter or anything else. I'm not his spokesman, so I don't want to put words into his mouth, but I have spoken with him about this in general a number of times and he is very content to have multiple game systems for Glorantha, especially HQ and RQ. Which you one choose depends on your playing style.

As for whether or not RQG will be hard to use for anything but Glorantha, that pretty much depends on how different your game world/setting is. Your mileage may vary. Part of that question will get answered when Mythic Iceland, which uses the the new RQG core engine, is published (Yes, a new edition is well underway, although we do not have a publication date for it yet).

This makes perfect sense to me. More so since from what I have been able to tell the Glorantha of each game line (RuneQuest and HeroQuest) each have a distinct feel and tone to them. And I'm not talking about the rules. What the "reality" of each setting is seems different to me.

I say "seems" because to be honest I never read anything about Glorantha until the release of Hero Wars. So I'm really late to the party. I'm familiar with Hero Wars/HeroQuest, read the source material from the last 15 years, and in the last year started reading up on RuneQuest 2nd edition and the supplements.

Which brings me to my final point: Who is RQ:G for? Well, for someone like me, perhaps. I don't own a hardcopy of any RuneQuest product. I am intrigued with Glorantha and might well end up buying this to use instead of RQ2. I'll be waiting for reviews, of course. But the notion that "anyone who might ever want this product already has what they need" is at least bounced by this one guy typing this post.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;973651This makes perfect sense to me. More so since from what I have been able to tell the Glorantha of each game line (RuneQuest and HeroQuest) each have a distinct feel and tone to them. And I'm not talking about the rules. What the "reality" of each setting is seems different to me.

I say "seems" because to be honest I never read anything about Glorantha until the release of Hero Wars. So I'm really late to the party. I'm familiar with Hero Wars/HeroQuest, read the source material from the last 15 years, and in the last year started reading up on RuneQuest 2nd edition and the supplements.

Which brings me to my final point: Who is RQ:G for? Well, for someone like me, perhaps. I don't own a hardcopy of any RuneQuest product. I am intrigued with Glorantha and might well end up buying this to use instead of RQ2. I'll be waiting for reviews, of course. But the notion that "anyone who might ever want this product already has what they need" is at least bounced by this one guy typing this post.

Hmm, maybe I'll have to get this edition of RQ just so I can do the same sort of edition comparison I've done with Traveller (ok, so with Traveller, I ignored anything past Starter Travelller...). I definitely need to do a more detailed comparison of RQ 1 and RQ 2 (I have done some in the past, notably on http://gringlespawnshop.proboards.com/ ).

Frank

Quote from: deleriad;972997There's nothing wrong with RQG but there's no compelling reason for me to play it when I already have a system (Mythras) that scratches the d100 itch more effectively and can be used for Glorantha with equal facility.

That mostly sums up my stance on it:).

Besides, I mostly use d100 for history-inspired Mythic games. Most such settings are for Mythras/RQ6/Legend/MRQ2, though;).

Quote from: TrippyHippy;972977For me, honestly, I'm beginning to feel that I have enough RuneQuest in my rpg collection, and I'm more into variants like Pendragon, or even derivatives like WFRP.

Pendragon is way better than Runequest. Not sure how WFRP is exactly a "derivative" of Runequest though?

Quote from: RPGPundit;974071Pendragon is way better than Runequest. Not sure how WFRP is exactly a "derivative" of Runequest though?

Pendragon is the best and most polished version of the BRP 'family' and always has been. It's just not generically applicable to different settings though, which still keeps me interested in RuneQuest as a system at least. That said, if Chaosium wanted to do something interesting with Glorantha, they could have done no worse than try to adapt Pendragon rules to the setting.

Warhammer is heavily influenced from RuneQuest from it's early days at Games Workshop and White Dwarf magazine (back in the 80s). This is not just the use of percentile use, but also in the setting tropes (Chaos stuff for the most part) and things like the way combat is run, 'Battle Magic' and the like (in 1st edition at a least). The design brief of the game was largely to take certain RQ elements (along with other references of course) and advance the timeline away from a pseudo bronze age into a pseudo-pre-Renaissance setting. I think the career system is possibly more influenced from Traveller though, perhaps, which was also a big influence on early White Dwarf stuff.

In any case, it is notable that the Games Workshop/White Dwarf interest in RuneQuest started to slow down once they brought out Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay.

Quote from: RPGPundit;974071Not sure how WFRP is exactly a "derivative" of Runequest though?

If there is one game Warhammer FRP is a derivative of it's Maelstrom.

But it can be argued that Maelstrom was a product of its time and place, namely Great Britain in the 80s where RQ seemed to be at eye level with D&D, and White Dwarf having a regular RQ column ("Rune Rites") in addition to regular RQ modules.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;974092If there is one game Warhammer FRP is a derivative of it's Maelstrom.

But it can be argued that Maelstrom was a product of its time and place, namely Great Britain in the 80s where RQ seemed to be at eye level with D&D, and White Dwarf having a regular RQ column ("Rune Rites") in addition to regular RQ modules.

Good point. Maelstrom is indeed a major antecedent for Warhammer in terms of system and the more advanced setting. It also was a forerunner for Mage's freeform magic system. It didn't have the chaos beastmen (aka Broo from RuneQuest) though!

In all, though, the RuneQuest system was just about the most influential rpg in UK at the time, alongside D&D and Traveller of course. Any new game, it seemed, was made in reference to its rule system and style.

I've always loved RuneQuest and never got on with Pendragon, for some reason. RQ wins hands down in my opinion.

BRP used to be my favorite skill based system for many years until I discovered GURPS. Personaly I would like to see rules for fatigue in RuneQuest, like 3d edition had but more elegant. d100 combat without fatigue and with characters with skills in the 90% is like a battle of automatons.

Quote from: John Scott;974155BRP used to be my favorite skill based system for many years until I discovered GURPS. Personaly I would like to see rules for fatigue in RuneQuest, like 3d edition had but more elegant. d100 combat without fatigue and with characters with skills in the 90% is like a battle of automatons.

The MRQ branch (Legend, Rq6, and most recently Mythras) have different fatigue rules. Make an endurance check after rounds equal to Con/6 round up. Fail and suffer effects. You can check it out in Mythras Imperative (free download). Elegant is a matter of taste I imagine, but I like them

Quote from: John Scott;974155BRP used to be my favorite skill based system for many years until I discovered GURPS. Personaly I would like to see rules for fatigue in RuneQuest, like 3d edition had but more elegant. d100 combat without fatigue and with characters with skills in the 90% is like a battle of automatons.

Raleel handled talking about Fatigue in Mythras, but it also has Special Effects in combat, so a successful attack and successful parry isn't necessarily a "nothing else happens" result.

Wouldn't mind seeing a summary of how an adapted or generalized Pendragon could improve on RQ/BRP. I've only played one session of PD and own the book, but I haven't read it carefully. Some impressions:

• D20 for to-hit in combat (and for skills) is granular enough except for "critical/special" effects, which I can't remember how they're handled in PD.
• Combat also less whiffy--but I don't remember why exactly.
• No hit locations IIRC simplifies things relative to RQ--but does the system "compensate" at all by using variable armor and/or detailed criticals like Elric?
• Only other dice needed are d6.
• Passions are interesting but I don't fully grok the details, let alone how they differ from élan/alignment (as in some versions of Elric/Stormbringer).
• PD has some generational rules and a more episodic structure that could help the campaign along, I think? Also some rules for renown/glory (not that other BRP-derivatives, don't have them). Anything else for systematizing social structure, relationships, and social advancement?

Quote from: Arminius;974168 has questions...

Off the top of my head (and I think rather accurate)...

• D20 for to-hit in combat (and for skills) is granular enough except for "critical/special" effects, which I can't remember how they're handled in PD.[/B]
  Crit = Double Damage/Double Effect
  
  
  • Combat also less whiffy--but I don't remember why exactly.[/B]
    Attack rolls are made simultaneously and compared at once. As long as both don't fail (which isn't common) one character WILL hit another and combat moves along. Combined with the Crit rules (and a Crit will come along sooner or later), combats generally runs like this: "Tink-Tink-Tink-Boom!" and the combat ends.
    
    
    • No hit locations IIRC simplifies things relative to RQ--but does the system "compensate" at all by using variable armor and/or detailed criticals like Elric?[/B]
      Shields affect how much damage is absorbed. Also, shields can shatter. And weapons can break. But no hit locations.
      
      
      • Only other dice needed are d6.[/B]
        Yes.
        
        
        • Passions are interesting but I don't fully grok the details, let alone how they differ from élan/alignment (as in some versions of Elric/Stormbringer).[/B]
          I can't compare them to Elric/Stormbringer (don't know the game) but the player can invoke a passion that might get a bonus on a skill for length of encounter that ranges from +10 to the stat to +20/Double the stat (whichever is higher), to -5 to the skill for a Failure to going Mad and... well, leaving the game for a while... on a Fumble.
          
          
          • PD has some generational rules and a more episodic structure that could help the campaign along, I think?[/B]
            Yes. Essentially one "adventure" per year per session which focuses and drives things along nicely. And then Winter phase which advances the PC in several ways -- or claws him back with a death in the family, raids, and so on -- all handled abstractly.
            
            
            • Also some ru[/B]les for renown/glory (not that other BRP-derivatives, don't have them). Anything else for systematizing social structure, relationships, and social advancement?
              In Winter phase one can get married, which can increase holdings, income, and so on. Have children which provides heir if PC dies. Gains Glory for spending and building. And so on.
              

I first discovered CoC and Pendragon so when I finally came to Runequest I was a bit disappointed in the fiddly hit locations and piercing rules. I understand they're intended to be more deadly and they can be fun with the Monty Pythonish loss of limbs but I think these days I'd just use the Pendragon combat system.

I think they were only intended to be more deadly than D&D, and then have been retained more or less out of tradition/brand identity. The various iterations of RQ, not to mention house rules and obvious variants such as Harnmaster, have modulated the amputation affects, but I currently prefer how things are done in Elric/Stormbringer 5e, where armor coverage is handled by variable absorption, and location effects are handled by rolling on a critical hit chart for especially hard hits.

I came to BRP via RQ2, then Pendragon, CoC and Stormbringer. Of the lot Stormbringer 1/2e is definitely my favourite incarnation of the BRP family. I have RQ3, and every edition of Stormbringer/Elric, Hawkmoon, and one of the MRQ editions.

Most of them have too many fiddly bits for my taste.

Quote from: Voros;974181I first discovered CoC and Pendragon so when I finally came to Runequest I was a bit disappointed in the fiddly hit locations and piercing rules. I understand they're intended to be more deadly and they can be fun with the Monty Pythonish loss of limbs but I think these days I'd just use the Pendragon combat system.

You might want to check out the free version of OpenQuest. It's a lighter version of RuneQuest without the fiddlier bits like hit location. Assuming you even want a version of RuneQuest...

Quote from: soltakss;974144I've always loved RuneQuest and never got on with Pendragon, for some reason. RQ wins hands down in my opinion.

Funny, I feel exactly the opposite. Well, not quite, I guess I just prefer Pendragon over Runequest.

Quote from: Baulderstone;974209You might want to check out the free version of OpenQuest. It's a lighter version of RuneQuest without the fiddlier bits like hit location. Assuming you even want a version of RuneQuest...

Cool thanks. I have always been interested in Runequest because of Glorantha and the King of Dragonpass.

Quote from: Raleel;974157The MRQ branch (Legend, Rq6, and most recently Mythras) have different fatigue rules. Make an endurance check after rounds equal to Con/6 round up. Fail and suffer effects. You can check it out in Mythras Imperative (free download). Elegant is a matter of taste I imagine, but I like them

Quote from: CRKrueger;974158Raleel handled talking about Fatigue in Mythras, but it also has Special Effects in combat, so a successful attack and successful parry isn't necessarily a "nothing else happens" result.

Thanks. I am a fan of L.Whitaker's work since the days of Elric!.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;974092If there is one game Warhammer FRP is a derivative of it's Maelstrom.

But it can be argued that Maelstrom was a product of its time and place, namely Great Britain in the 80s where RQ seemed to be at eye level with D&D, and White Dwarf having a regular RQ column ("Rune Rites") in addition to regular RQ modules.

OK, that makes sense. Because I always saw WFRP as derivative of Maelstrom, but it's certainly possible that RQ was big "in the scene" at the time and had an influence on all of it.

WFRP certainly doesn't feel that much like RQ in play. I think the only significant connection is that WFRP came into existence because GW temporarily lost the RQ license. GW had been pushing RQ hard up to that point, and they wanted an RPG based on their own IP that they could sell instead.

Both games have percentile skill systems, but the skill levels and advancement are so different that it has never felt derivative of RQ to me. I've never owned Maelstrom, so I can't weigh in on that one.

Quote from: Baulderstone;975404WFRP certainly doesn't feel that much like RQ in play. I think the only significant connection is that WFRP came into existence because GW temporarily lost the RQ license. GW had been pushing RQ hard up to that point, and they wanted an RPG based on their own IP that they could sell instead.

Both games have percentile skill systems, but the skill levels and advancement are so different that it has never felt derivative of RQ to me. I've never owned Maelstrom, so I can't weigh in on that one.

I own several versions of Runequest, both editions of Maelstrom, and used to own WFRP, and I just see them as being on the same d100 contiunuum.

Quote from: Baulderstone;975404WFRP certainly doesn't feel that much like RQ in play. I think the only significant connection is that WFRP came into existence because GW temporarily lost the RQ license. GW had been pushing RQ hard up to that point, and they wanted an RPG based on their own IP that they could sell instead.

Both games have percentile skill systems, but the skill levels and advancement are so different that it has never felt derivative of RQ to me. I've never owned Maelstrom, so I can't weigh in on that one.

Maelstrom is so close to Warhammer in it's presentation of percentile stats, and even it's 16th century-esque setting it hard to deny it's influence on Warhammer:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]1150[/ATTACH]
I do feel that actually, things like combat (including hit locations, armour points, etc) is actually pretty similar between Warhammer and RuneQuest though, certainly more than it is comparable to Warhammer and AD&D. The character generation is curious, because RuneQuest originally had characters starting at very low levels of skill (5%) as raw 18 year olds, but then pushed the option of joining cults/guilds/etc in order to gain prior experience. My feeling is that WFRP essentially simplified and codified this process into a fully blown career system, with a bit of an influence from Traveller as well.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;975599I do feel that actually, things like combat (including hit locations, armour points, etc) is actually pretty similar between Warhammer and RuneQuest though, certainly more than it is comparable to Warhammer and AD&D. The character generation is curious, because RuneQuest originally had characters starting at very low levels of skill (5%) as raw 18 year olds, but then pushed the option of joining cults/guilds/etc in order to gain prior experience. My feeling is that WFRP essentially simplified and codified this process into a fully blown career system, with a bit of an influence from Traveller as well.

The career system in WFRP is a lot wonkier over long-term play than RQ. For character generation and the early stage of a campaign, it works great. You get to pick a general class, and get a random career in it. It's often not the exact career you want, so you work towards a career that suits you. That part is fun, but then you start to get issues.

For one thing, most careers don't take very long to max out. People frequently find a career that suits their role in the party and are soon done with it. After that, you tend to see a lot of random shuffling between careers that have little to with what it occurring in the campaign. This is aggravated by the way you need very specific bonuses. If you have already done one career that offers +10 to WS, you need to find a career with another number for a bonus, such as +5.

It does work, but it isn't pretty. I often get the impression that people that rave about the career system have never actually played a long-term campaign. It's clever on paper, but I really wonder how much long-term playtesting got done on it at GW before release.

Traveller neatly dodges a lot of these issues by having the career system used entirely in character generation.

RQ's system is so much cleaner than WFRP.

Any play experience with the QuickStart?

I ran it on FreeRPG day at a local game store. Went well enough but the players managed to mostly circumvent the plot and I had to wing it for about 2/3rds of the session but the end result was that the players liked the system (two had played RQ before, one had played d100 games before and the otehr only D&D or generic fantasy stuff previously.

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;975656I ran it on FreeRPG day at a local game store. Went well enough but the players managed to mostly circumvent the plot and I had to wing it for about 2/3rds of the session but the end result was that the players liked the system (two had played RQ before, one had played d100 games before and the otehr only D&D or generic fantasy stuff previously.

Obviously still early doors and sans edition Wars how would you rate against Mythras?

Thinking about grabbing for Glorantha content and gaming but starting to lean away of spending money to just collect something if Mythras hits all the same highlights.

Designed to be less crunchy in the combat area than Mythras by skipping the Special Effects is will based on teh QS and teh ongoing discussions about the full rules end up moving the complexity towards cults and the various magic options.

Personally, having started with RQ2, I am happy enough with Mythras and the direction that TDM are taking that. Glorantha, although I am happy to play in games set there, I do find that there is a degree of fanaticism involved in pushing that setting. I'm much more a fan of S&S settings and I think Mythras does a decent job of supporting that. I've run plenty of straight S&S games, some Mythic Britain games and a couple of Mythic Rome games so right across the spectrum and while I don't think Mythras is great for one-off con style games without cropping it to fit, I do think it shines with longer games where the players are prepared to put some effort in to learning the rules.

Do any versions of Runequest have rules for using a map with counters/figures to resolve combat, or is it always theater o' the mind?

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;975677Designed to be less crunchy in the combat area than Mythras by skipping the Special Effects is will based on teh QS and teh ongoing discussions about the full rules end up moving the complexity towards cults and the various magic options.

Personally, having started with RQ2, I am happy enough with Mythras and the direction that TDM are taking that. Glorantha, although I am happy to play in games set there, I do find that there is a degree of fanaticism involved in pushing that setting. I'm much more a fan of S&S settings and I think Mythras does a decent job of supporting that. I've run plenty of straight S&S games, some Mythic Britain games and a couple of Mythic Rome games so right across the spectrum and while I don't think Mythras is great for one-off con style games without cropping it to fit, I do think it shines with longer games where the players are prepared to put some effort in to learning the rules.

Thanks

Mythras is too crunchy for me, fatigue states and so on are great ideas but tend to add too many doodads to combat.

Quote from: Skarg;975687Do any versions of Runequest have rules for using a map with counters/figures to resolve combat, or is it always theater o' the mind?

We played RQ2 and RQ3 with miniatures and fully enjoyed it. Although they don;t have hexes, the RQ2 and RQ3 rules work well with miniatures.

The rules for the abandoned RQ4 had a lot of quarter-turns and part-phases, which I absolutely hated.

Quote from: Skarg;975687Do any versions of Runequest have rules for using a map with counters/figures to resolve combat, or is it always theater o' the mind?

Runequest 6 (pre-cursor to Mythras) had rules for miniatures/grid combat in an appendix. Mythras cut them, but the Classic Fantasy supplement has rules for it.

Thanks guys.

Quote from: Baulderstone;975602The career system in WFRP is a lot wonkier over long-term play than RQ. For character generation and the early stage of a campaign, it works great. You get to pick a general class, and get a random career in it. It's often not the exact career you want, so you work towards a career that suits you. That part is fun, but then you start to get issues.

For one thing, most careers don't take very long to max out. People frequently find a career that suits their role in the party and are soon done with it. After that, you tend to see a lot of random shuffling between careers that have little to with what it occurring in the campaign. This is aggravated by the way you need very specific bonuses. If you have already done one career that offers +10 to WS, you need to find a career with another number for a bonus, such as +5.

It does work, but it isn't pretty. I often get the impression that people that rave about the career system have never actually played a long-term campaign. It's clever on paper, but I really wonder how much long-term playtesting got done on it at GW before release.

Traveller neatly dodges a lot of these issues by having the career system used entirely in character generation.

RQ's system is so much cleaner than WFRP.

Well, I played in the Enemy within campaign with those rules, and it wasn't really an issue for our group as far as anybody expressed anything. Not sure about saying how RQ's system is cleaner insofar as they didn't really have a system as such - more a bunch of notes at the back about how to build background experience into older characters, if you didn't just want to start with a bunch of 5-10% level skills and/or a mortgage repayment to a cult!

Anyway, the reason why WFRP's career system is celebrated is not because of how it allowed character to develop, but rather the whole spread and diversity of character types gave a real sense of how the society of the warhammer world held together. Compared to D&D's classes, which were all technically outsiders to the NPC culture anyway, it was a lot more illustrative.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;975864Anyway, the reason why WFRP's career system is celebrated is not because of how it allowed character to develop, but rather the whole spread and diversity of character types gave a real sense of how the society of the warhammer world held together. Compared to D&D's classes, which were all technically outsiders to the NPC culture anyway, it was a lot more illustrative.

I agree that WFRPs career system is great for character backgrounds. It just gets messy as an advancement system.

One of the problems with WFRP's Career System is that it gives little guidance on how to run a quasi-historical European campaign to novice American GMs.  Also, as it includes a very wide range of Basic and Advanced Careers, some of which are terribly suited to someone who also serves as an "adventurer" from time to time, it's very easy for a group of PCs to get drawn into the coolness of the Career System each following their own interests (and chasing their own advancement bonuses) leaving the GM with a terrible mess when it comes to justifying everything in the setting while still having these PCs frequently coming together to do things not covered by their careers.

Quote from: CRKrueger;976044One of the problems with WFRP's Career System is that it gives little guidance on how to run a quasi-historical European campaign to novice American GMs.  Also, as it includes a very wide range of Basic and Advanced Careers, some of which are terribly suited to someone who also serves as an "adventurer" from time to time, it's very easy for a group of PCs to get drawn into the coolness of the Career System each following their own interests (and chasing their own advancement bonuses) leaving the GM with a terrible mess when it comes to justifying everything in the setting while still having these PCs frequently coming together to do things not covered by their careers.

That's under "setting" or "GM advice", not "advancement system".

Quote from: CRKrueger;976044One of the problems with WFRP's Career System is that it gives little guidance on how to run a quasi-historical European campaign to novice American GMs.  Also, as it includes a very wide range of Basic and Advanced Careers, some of which are terribly suited to someone who also serves as an "adventurer" from time to time, it's very easy for a group of PCs to get drawn into the coolness of the Career System each following their own interests (and chasing their own advancement bonuses) leaving the GM with a terrible mess when it comes to justifying everything in the setting while still having these PCs frequently coming together to do things not covered by their careers.

The adventures for WFRP, excellent though many of them are, have almost no awareness of the career system either. They assume you have a typical party of wandering vagabonds.

The world of Glorantha seems to be a big selling point for RuneQuest, yet despite owning at least 4 versions of the "core rulebook" over the years I still know next to nothing about it. I wonder if this version will actually give some details and world related mechanics.

Quote from: AsenRG;976047That's under "setting" or "GM advice", not "advancement system".

They do mention it in the section on advancement, albeit with very little detail.  They hint at the concepts of downtime or what we might call these days "career phases" where PCs are supposed to be off making a living inside the "normal" economic, political, religious, caste society of the Empire in between adventures.  They also tell you the GM is supposed to call the ball on choices for careers, determining when careers become available, etc.  The problem is, it's all written assuming you're a Brit or European and class and history is in your blood.  For a lot of people, it could get messy, but I've seen lots of GMs completely at a loss at how to reconcile Career "What you supposedly are in the setting" with "What PCs do.", which frequently can be completely different than their careers.

With a career system based on societal roles and professions, you can't really deal with advancement without integrating it unless you just handwave the whole thing and move on.

Quote from: Baulderstone;976077The adventures for WFRP, excellent though many of them are, have almost no awareness of the career system either. They assume you have a typical party of wandering vagabonds.

Yeah, the various Enemy Within episodes could have been better at detailing good career options and trainers.

Quote from: CRKrueger;976093With a career system based on societal roles and professions, you can't really deal with advancement without integrating it unless you just handwave the whole thing and move on.

Having not played much in Glorantha... is it much different regarding the interaction of PCs with the 'cults' they belong to? I know RQ6 had something about the amount of time a PC has to devote to the temple once they get to a certain level within the group... but do GMs use that as adventure fodder or just handwave it?
 
How often do D&D 'clerics' end up running errands for their higher-ups? Worshipping? Proselytizing? Building new shrines/temples?
I always liked the idea of wizards having to seek out their spells and components... but that stuff usually gets waived as well. Nobody is really interested in doing the work portion of their profession it seems (though I've done all those things in games... so I know it happens now and then).

Quote from: Simlasa;976102Having not played much in Glorantha... is it much different regarding the interaction of PCs with the 'cults' they belong to? I know RQ6 had something about the amount of time a PC has to devote to the temple once they get to a certain level within the group... but do GMs use that as adventure fodder or just handwave it?
 
How often do D&D 'clerics' end up running errands for their higher-ups? Worshipping? Proselytizing? Building new shrines/temples?
I always liked the idea of wizards having to seek out their spells and components... but that stuff usually gets waived as well. Nobody is really interested in doing the work portion of their profession it seems (though I've done all those things in games... so I know it happens now and then).

In Glorantha, I wouldn't know first-hand, but I've seen plenty of people talk about playing all that to the hilt at their tables, like in-game years to hit the top ranks.

In WFRP, I certainly played a lot of it with the various Religions, Templar Orders, Knightly Orders, Wizard Colleges, Merchant Guilds, etc.  Staying well-connected and keeping that status up wasn't easy.

In D&D, in depended greatly on the setting, but generally a lot of clerics were members of Itinerant, Mendicant, Proselytizing or Crusading Orders, who as "Adventuring Priests" were usually subject to a different hierarchy than the Temple Priests.  That made for lots of great political drama at times, as well as crises of faith for players when despite all they're done for their god, they still have to listen to a glorified bookkeeper/librarian who got his position by rising within the church, not slaying his god's enemies...and sometimes they found the God sided with that glorified book-keeper (aka the High Priest of the Faith's main church).  I found adventuring priests and paladins extremely subject to hubris...especially when they start directly and successfully interfering in the plans of Demon Lords.

Quote from: Simlasa;976102Having not played much in Glorantha... is it much different regarding the interaction of PCs with the 'cults' they belong to? I know RQ6 had something about the amount of time a PC has to devote to the temple once they get to a certain level within the group... but do GMs use that as adventure fodder or just handwave it?

Basically, as I read it, it's pretty impossible to make your way in the world of Glorantha, in terms of character development, without being part of a Cult or Guild or whatever. They teach all the spells and skills and whatnot, and are the ones who give you a leg up at the start of your career...in return for your devotion to their cause. In a similar vein to Traveller, who start the game with a mortgage on a ship they have to pay off, your beginning characters in RuneQuest also start off with a debt to a Cult. By the time they pay off this debt, they are already well on the ladder of that particular Cult's pathway towards advancement anyway.

Quote from: Simlasa;976102Having not played much in Glorantha... is it much different regarding the interaction of PCs with the 'cults' they belong to? I know RQ6 had something about the amount of time a PC has to devote to the temple once they get to a certain level within the group... but do GMs use that as adventure fodder or just handwave it?
 
How often do D&D 'clerics' end up running errands for their higher-ups? Worshipping? Proselytizing? Building new shrines/temples?
I always liked the idea of wizards having to seek out their spells and components... but that stuff usually gets waived as well. Nobody is really interested in doing the work portion of their profession it seems (though I've done all those things in games... so I know it happens now and then).

The cycle of adventure --> treasure --> dealing with cults/temples/priests --> improving character is tied together rather elegantly in RuneQuest. (At least in RQ2, which is the only edition I have read.)

Years ago several posters at Story Games laid out the cycle of RuneQuest play (http://story-games.com/forums/discussion/15014/gm-stance-in-old-school-sim-games-aka-how-would-you-run-runequest). A poster named epweissengruber summed up the conversation like this:


The character advancement cycle works like this:

GM presents challenge >> Players overcome it >> skills improve as they are used successfully >> conflicts allow characters to collect COIN (which I will use for cash, treasure, valuable objects, or adventurer-created outcomes that will be rewarded in coin or which have cash value (like freeing a captive) >> characters take things and buy improvement from communities

That's a very simplified version of it. But to become a really advanced and capable character you must take this path:
Adventurer1.0 overcomes conflict for COIN >> Adventurer1.0 buys improvements from generic organization (e.g. Thieves' Guild) >> Adventurer1.1 (the upgrade) overcomes challenge for COIN >> Adventurer1.1 approaches cult for particular skills and battle magic >> Adventurer 1.2 overcomes conflict for COIN >> Adventurer1.2 joins cult for really specialized skills and potent magic>> Adventurer2.0 (an initiate) overcomes conflict for COIN >> Adventurer2.0 commits to cult and can borrow Rune Magic >> Adventurer3.0 (a devotee) overcomes challenge for COIN >> Adventurer3.0 becomes a Rune Lord or a Rune Priest with access to divine gifts and stupendous Rune Magic

You can get slow skill increase through use but to get anywhere, and to get really cool skills, you have to engage with cults and temples. Gaining skills and treasure is just the first step to character advancement.

What is the reward cycle?

Players overcome GM challenges >> They have interesting interactions with the Gloranthan world and people >> they associate their characters with fictional agents (from animal to the divine) >> they gain power from and responsibility to those GM-controlled fictional agents (cults, communities, gods) >> they work to have their characters become shapers of Glorantha themselves.

This is not the approach of anygame. It's not even the approach for all BRP systems (Call of Cthulhu, Mongoose's genericized versions). It's for running that lovely little game I have carried around for the better part of 3 decades. It is also the product of someone who has realized this with the benefit of hindsight and sporadic and disappointing engagement with the game. Ignoring the logical implications of the character advancement cycle and the implicit reward cycle will lead to heartbreak.

You can play Runequest like anygame.

But the rules, the beautiful supplements (Cults of Prax, The Big Rubble, Borderlands, Griffin Mountain) all depend on this framework, and the legendary campaigns discussed on fora etc. grew out of it, consciously or not.

The reward cycle involves challenge but involves so much more: exploring, interacting with, and shaping a detailed a consistent fictional construct called Glorantha. And doing it better than Stafford or Perrin did -- if you can.

You don't have to know all of Stafford's fictional world to play the game. Look at the text: there are 2 cults and models and a description of 1 or 2 guilds. All you need is to do as Johnstone suggests: make a map with neat spots. Now come up with 2 positive cults, 2 weird cults, and 2 evil cults for your bad guys to worship. Make up details about initiation and Rune Lord/Priest status as needed for your characters. Put their temples on your map and bang! Your players can choose to react with those however they wish. Let them set goals in this fictional space. Do NOT have the temple of truth COMMAND them what to do. Religion and magic are ways to advance characters and have fun NOT for the GM to railroad.

"That fits with many of the other things included in the game--especially a cool two page map of the Kingdoms of Sartar and Prax which, although not on a hex grid, is exactly right for exploration style adventures. "

Exactly. This is all you need. Look at that 2 Page History of Glorantha! That is all you need to set up a little campaign space and make an adventure area as Johnstone suggests. Look at the runes. All you have to do is look at the rune as say "humh, what rune-related stuff is there?" or "what opposing rune would want to mess around there" or "what would this guy way over here find of interest in this opposing rune way over here?"

1. Look over the character sheets and make note of their skills.
- set challenges high to make advancement hard
- set challenges low to speed up skill advancement
- given them communities there to help them advance their favoured skills IF they do such and such or IF they will join up. But give choices.

2. Treasure. So maybe there's loot hoards in monster-infested dungeons, or maybe there's just financial rewards for being a judicial champion or recovering falcons.
- financial rewards are all you need for the game mechanics
- to reinforce the fiction have communities approach them for their good deeds OR have opposing communities take them to task
- at least have the characters see the responses to their actions -- you don't always have to present them with drama every time they take an action

3. "The chance to die," of course means danger.
- Or crippling! Beginning characters in Runequest are fragile. Limbs get chomped all of the time.
- That means that characters need help from communities/organizations/temples/guilds. You want healing spells, you have to make nice with the healer cults, and make big contributions if you want resurrections. You need to get relics that contain healing spells and into which you can devote your personal power. (The idea that you project your own personal drives into magical items is very close to the psycho-anthropology of magic).
- To have real heroes there has to be real danger. Keep death meaningful in Runequest.

4. This usually goes without saying, but I like that it's called out in the text. Put in fun stuff! Try to make exploring this map and pursuing treasures and other opportunities as fun and exciting as possible.
- And meaningful.
- And hooked to reward and advancement.
- Advancement: skill use possibilities, items of special interest to temples and guilds that could get you skills and spells, COIN
- Reward: seeing your character get to use specialized skills successfully, interacting with allied magical powers (followers of the god of principles that the character follows), interacting with enemy magical/mythical forces, and CHANGING Glorantha. That can include participating in initiation ceremonies, undertaking the great challenges that one must pass in order to rise to higher levels like devotee, Rune Lord, and Priest.

Do all of this on your own. Do NOT try to wade through Gloranthaphilia to get your answers. Make stuff that will engage players. And provide POSSIBLE routes of progress, not railroads.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;976378The cycle of adventure --> treasure --> dealing with cults/temples/priests --> improving character is tied together rather elegantly in RuneQuest. (At least in RQ2, which is the only edition I have read.)

Years ago several posters at Story Games laid out the cycle of RuneQuest play (http://story-games.com/forums/discussion/15014/gm-stance-in-old-school-sim-games-aka-how-would-you-run-runequest). A poster named epweissengruber summed up the conversation like this:


The character advancement cycle works like this:

GM presents challenge >> Players overcome it >> skills improve as they are used successfully >> conflicts allow characters to collect COIN (which I will use for cash, treasure, valuable objects, or adventurer-created outcomes that will be rewarded in coin or which have cash value (like freeing a captive) >> characters take things and buy improvement from communities

That's a very simplified version of it. But to become a really advanced and capable character you must take this path:
Adventurer1.0 overcomes conflict for COIN >> Adventurer1.0 buys improvements from generic organization (e.g. Thieves' Guild) >> Adventurer1.1 (the upgrade) overcomes challenge for COIN >> Adventurer1.1 approaches cult for particular skills and battle magic >> Adventurer 1.2 overcomes conflict for COIN >> Adventurer1.2 joins cult for really specialized skills and potent magic>> Adventurer2.0 (an initiate) overcomes conflict for COIN >> Adventurer2.0 commits to cult and can borrow Rune Magic >> Adventurer3.0 (a devotee) overcomes challenge for COIN >> Adventurer3.0 becomes a Rune Lord or a Rune Priest with access to divine gifts and stupendous Rune Magic

You can get slow skill increase through use but to get anywhere, and to get really cool skills, you have to engage with cults and temples. Gaining skills and treasure is just the first step to character advancement.

What is the reward cycle?

Players overcome GM challenges >> They have interesting interactions with the Gloranthan world and people >> they associate their characters with fictional agents (from animal to the divine) >> they gain power from and responsibility to those GM-controlled fictional agents (cults, communities, gods) >> they work to have their characters become shapers of Glorantha themselves.

This is not the approach of anygame. It's not even the approach for all BRP systems (Call of Cthulhu, Mongoose's genericized versions). It's for running that lovely little game I have carried around for the better part of 3 decades. It is also the product of someone who has realized this with the benefit of hindsight and sporadic and disappointing engagement with the game. Ignoring the logical implications of the character advancement cycle and the implicit reward cycle will lead to heartbreak.

You can play Runequest like anygame.

But the rules, the beautiful supplements (Cults of Prax, The Big Rubble, Borderlands, Griffin Mountain) all depend on this framework, and the legendary campaigns discussed on fora etc. grew out of it, consciously or not.

The reward cycle involves challenge but involves so much more: exploring, interacting with, and shaping a detailed a consistent fictional construct called Glorantha. And doing it better than Stafford or Perrin did -- if you can.

You don't have to know all of Stafford's fictional world to play the game. Look at the text: there are 2 cults and models and a description of 1 or 2 guilds. All you need is to do as Johnstone suggests: make a map with neat spots. Now come up with 2 positive cults, 2 weird cults, and 2 evil cults for your bad guys to worship. Make up details about initiation and Rune Lord/Priest status as needed for your characters. Put their temples on your map and bang! Your players can choose to react with those however they wish. Let them set goals in this fictional space. Do NOT have the temple of truth COMMAND them what to do. Religion and magic are ways to advance characters and have fun NOT for the GM to railroad.

"That fits with many of the other things included in the game--especially a cool two page map of the Kingdoms of Sartar and Prax which, although not on a hex grid, is exactly right for exploration style adventures. "

Exactly. This is all you need. Look at that 2 Page History of Glorantha! That is all you need to set up a little campaign space and make an adventure area as Johnstone suggests. Look at the runes. All you have to do is look at the rune as say "humh, what rune-related stuff is there?" or "what opposing rune would want to mess around there" or "what would this guy way over here find of interest in this opposing rune way over here?"

1. Look over the character sheets and make note of their skills.
- set challenges high to make advancement hard
- set challenges low to speed up skill advancement
- given them communities there to help them advance their favoured skills IF they do such and such or IF they will join up. But give choices.

2. Treasure. So maybe there's loot hoards in monster-infested dungeons, or maybe there's just financial rewards for being a judicial champion or recovering falcons.
- financial rewards are all you need for the game mechanics
- to reinforce the fiction have communities approach them for their good deeds OR have opposing communities take them to task
- at least have the characters see the responses to their actions -- you don't always have to present them with drama every time they take an action

3. "The chance to die," of course means danger.
- Or crippling! Beginning characters in Runequest are fragile. Limbs get chomped all of the time.
- That means that characters need help from communities/organizations/temples/guilds. You want healing spells, you have to make nice with the healer cults, and make big contributions if you want resurrections. You need to get relics that contain healing spells and into which you can devote your personal power. (The idea that you project your own personal drives into magical items is very close to the psycho-anthropology of magic).
- To have real heroes there has to be real danger. Keep death meaningful in Runequest.

4. This usually goes without saying, but I like that it's called out in the text. Put in fun stuff! Try to make exploring this map and pursuing treasures and other opportunities as fun and exciting as possible.
- And meaningful.
- And hooked to reward and advancement.
- Advancement: skill use possibilities, items of special interest to temples and guilds that could get you skills and spells, COIN
- Reward: seeing your character get to use specialized skills successfully, interacting with allied magical powers (followers of the god of principles that the character follows), interacting with enemy magical/mythical forces, and CHANGING Glorantha. That can include participating in initiation ceremonies, undertaking the great challenges that one must pass in order to rise to higher levels like devotee, Rune Lord, and Priest.

Do all of this on your own. Do NOT try to wade through Gloranthaphilia to get your answers. Make stuff that will engage players. And provide POSSIBLE routes of progress, not railroads.

Hate to burst the bubble of Gloranthaphiles, but really, that's just describing a good campaign in general.  Sure, it has mechanical enforcement (way to advance, cult requirements, more lethal combat), but what that guy describes is how we played D&D back in the day.  You can't really have a World in Motion without it.

Quote from: CRKrueger;976408Hate to burst the bubble of Gloranthaphiles, but really, that's just describing a good campaign in general.  Sure, it has mechanical enforcement (way to advance, cult requirements, more lethal combat), but what that guy describes is how we played D&D back in the day.  You can't really have a World in Motion without it.

I don't think there are any bubbles to be burst. And if you feel the need to be the bearer of really special wisdom, awesome.

But the fact remains that this:

Quote"Adventurer1.1 approaches cult for particular skills and battle magic >> Adventurer 1.2 overcomes conflict for COIN >> Adventurer1.2 joins cult for really specialized skills and potent magic>> Adventurer2.0 (an initiate) overcomes conflict for COIN >> Adventurer2.0 commits to cult and can borrow Rune Magic >> Adventurer3.0 (a devotee) overcomes challenge for COIN >> Adventurer3.0 becomes a Rune Lord or a Rune Priest with access to divine gifts and stupendous Rune Magic"

...is specific to RuneQuest 2, and, as you say is "mechanical reinforcement" of "the interaction of PCs with the 'cults' they belong to." Which has been the very point under consideration of the last few posts.

The larger portion of the post is a breakdown of the GM advice toward the back of RQ2:

Quote"An adventure area, whether it be a section of forest, cave, old ruin, river etc. should provide the players with the following opportunities:
--experience in the use of his skills
--opportunity to obtain treasure and thereby purchase further training
--the chance to die in pursuit of the above
--enjoyment while doing all of the above"

In the Story-Games thread I linked to and quoted from Johnstone comments on that RQ2 GM advice for building adventures:

Quote"Huh. That sounds pretty close to the old-school open sandbox style of running games..."

So no one thought they had split the atom for the first time. (If anything the point of the S-G thread was about demystifying playing in the setting of Glorantha.)

So, as far as RQ2 goes, that which isn't novel isn't. That which is specific to RQ2 is. And...? I guess we can move on now? Or perhaps have three pages of immature insults about points that barely seem the trouble?

Quote from: Simlasa;976102Having not played much in Glorantha... is it much different regarding the interaction of PCs with the 'cults' they belong to?

The key difference is that in RuneQuest, you can pick a cult and stick with it over the long term. Advancing in a cult takes a long damn time. Your cult is a steady connection to the setting.

In WFRP, careers are relatively easy to max out. Unless you are on one of the few chained series of careers, like Wizard, your relationship with the institution related to your career is a fleeting thing before you ingratiate yourself into a new field. The mechanics provide the exact opposite attitude towards social mobility that the setting seems to imply.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;976378The cycle of adventure --> treasure --> dealing with cults/temples/priests --> improving character is tied together rather elegantly in RuneQuest. (At least in RQ2, which is the only edition I have read.)

Years ago several posters at Story Games laid out the cycle of RuneQuest play (http://story-games.com/forums/discussion/15014/gm-stance-in-old-school-sim-games-aka-how-would-you-run-runequest). A poster named epweissengruber summed up the conversation like this:


The character advancement cycle works like this:

GM presents challenge >> Players overcome it >> skills improve as they are used successfully >> conflicts allow characters to collect COIN (which I will use for cash, treasure, valuable objects, or adventurer-created outcomes that will be rewarded in coin or which have cash value (like freeing a captive) >> characters take things and buy improvement from communities

....

Do all of this on your own. Do NOT try to wade through Gloranthaphilia to get your answers. Make stuff that will engage players. And provide POSSIBLE routes of progress, not railroads.

Excellent overview. My longest running RQ campaign may not have followed that cycle exactly, but the gist of it sure is on target.

There was a time when I went hogwild on acquiring Glorantha materials. And then I tried to run a campaign, and got lost in them. Now many of those have either been sold or are in my for sale bin...

I have long maintained that the most important supplement is Cults of Prax. As Christopher mentions, you can make up your own cults, but CoP has so much good stuff in it. I personally never really absorbed much of the fluff text, going straight for the mechanics of the cults. Cults of Terror is a nice bonus. After that, there are cool adventures (Apple Lane would actually be my 2nd favorite supplement before Cults of Terror). Some of the adventures can get railroady, if need be, ignore the adventure and just mine them for cool stuff.

Note that RQ3 (Avalon Hill) handles cults differently and I think broke some of the above cycle.

Frank

I think the key aspect of Runequest is community. While it's got it share of dungeon/wilderness crawls, and this is awesome, it also has built-in mechanisms to assure the group will eventually integrate with their community, in the form of Cults, because that's the true path to power. And once they do it, they will be inexorably linked to the duties such a post entails to community, protecting them and upholding their beliefs.

Because of this, I agree Cults of Prax together with Runequest 2 form the undiluted Runequest experience.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;976412I don't think there are any bubbles to be burst. And if you feel the need to be the bearer of really special wisdom, awesome.

But the fact remains that this:

...is specific to RuneQuest 2, and, as you say is "mechanical reinforcement" of "the interaction of PCs with the 'cults' they belong to." Which has been the very point under consideration of the last few posts.

The larger portion of the post is a breakdown of the GM advice toward the back of RQ2:


In the Story-Games thread I linked to and quoted from Johnstone comments on that RQ2 GM advice for building adventures:


So no one thought they had split the atom for the first time. (If anything the point of the S-G thread was about demystifying playing in the setting of Glorantha.)

So, as far as RQ2 goes, that which isn't novel isn't. That which is specific to RQ2 is. And...? I guess we can move on now? Or perhaps have three pages of immature insults about points that barely seem the trouble?

Uh, maybe if you feel the need to, you're obviously mighty riled about something, so feel free to move on to whatever sets the world to rights, brother.  I was just pointing out that setting social structures that PCs are motivated to interact with are quite possible without overt mechanics, and simply by placing logical barriers to gaining knowledge, you end up with much the same cycle as the "Glorantha Cycle".  Even something like AD&D's various costs and training rules gets you there with a good GM.  

My current system of choice is Mythras which has all the Runequest structures in place, and I use them, but other than a more strictly defined hierarchy for casters, etc, my players aren't doing anything all that different than they did in AD&D or even Shadowrun when it comes to interacting with the social structures of the setting.

The uniqueness of RQ/Glorantha doesn't lie in what they did, but how.  By consistently showing how to express a setting using the RQ rules, many of the supplements, taken together, form a masterclass in worldbuilding and setting verisimilitude.

Quote from: Baulderstone;976413The key difference is that in RuneQuest, you can pick a cult and stick with it over the long term. Advancing in a cult takes a long damn time. Your cult is a steady connection to the setting.

My question was aimed more at how much in-game time cult affairs took up... as opposed to being something taken care of during hand-waved 'down time' between sessions.
It seems like it really depends on who is playing it... rather than Runequest cults intentionally/specifically generating mission-based play or something. Which is the same impression I get from Mythras and lots of other games with well defined factions/settings.

Quote from: CRKrueger;976524[snip]...Even something like AD&D's various costs and training rules gets you there with a good GM.

Throw in titles, land rewards, and stronghold/church/tower building and you really tie the PCs to the community and it can grow around them as they grow. Soon you can have adventures based on political in-fighting, espionage, etc. I always thought D&D was perfect for this and nearly every early edition had some rules and suggestions along these lines.

AD&D had suggestions but it was all rather vaguely defined. BECMI had it much more explictly worked out, even if it was a bit wonky in places.

Sorry, double post.

Quote from: Simlasa;976525My question was aimed more at how much in-game time cult affairs took up... as opposed to being something taken care of during hand-waved 'down time' between sessions.
It seems like it really depends on who is playing it... rather than Runequest cults intentionally/specifically generating mission-based play or something. Which is the same impression I get from Mythras and lots of other games with well defined factions/settings.

Starting from Initiate a cult member must 1) uphold the cult beliefs, likes and dislikes and 2) do active services for the clan. The former incentivizes the character to emulate his/her patron god on a personal level (and be punished if not, by losing POW or having Divine Intervention negated later), while the later is a prompt to intertwine the character life with the cult agenda (AKA adventures and missions given by priests). Then at Rune Lord and Priest level it's assumed the character will pursue the interest of the cult at all times, making it a central mover and shaker for it's community. Both the cult sourcebooks (Cults of Prax, Cults of Terror) and scenarios sourcebooks (Griffin Mountain, Pavis & Big Rubble, etc) give support for the GM to create this framework.

Now, nothing prevents a group from ignoring all the cult part and playing it like a low-level D&D, and that's cool too. But the goal of mastering the runes through cult ascension is stated clearly in the book, both in plain text (RQ2 pg 54 "Rune Cults" and the object of Runequest) and through actual gaming mechanisms.

Quote from: CRKruegerother than a more strictly defined hierarchy for casters, etc, my players aren't doing anything all that different than they did in AD&D or even Shadowrun when it comes to interacting with the social structures of the setting.

Going by memory here, but as Voros said above, the D&D framework for this always felt pretty vague to me and more explicitely peripheral to it's core gameplay, and while I remember Shadowrun having a very rich scenario, it's instructed modus operandi was "accept mission from Mr. J > do it > [optional] get screwed by Mr J", with little support to extend this loop beyond and provide opportunities for players to be movers and shakers in the scenario structure. I think later games built upon this later (see Blades in the Dark) but I don't remember this being a core assumption of Shadowrun at all.

Quote from: Itachi;976629it's instructed modus operandi was "accept mission from Mr. J > do it > [optional] get screwed by Mr J"

...and D&D was only about "kill things and take their stuff...yeah.  That's what I mean by a good GM doing his job and running a good World in Motion setting.

Quote from: Itachi;976629I think later games built upon this later (see Blades in the Dark) but I don't remember this being a core assumption of Shadowrun at all.

Then you never had a street samurai doing more and more jobs to get better offers from the Yamatetsu Johnson so that they could get in good with the corp because they were the only ones who had a Delta Clinic in Seattle...or insert megacorp, nation, immortal power faction and desired thing you want or need from that entity here.  Heroquesting?...you ever hear of Harlequin's Back?

Now the one setting structure that is different in RQ is that it does assume that given enough time and proper action and play, that a PC can attain the very highest levels of the Cult.   Possible to do in Greyhawk AD&D say using nothing but the rules in the books and a good GM, not really possible in Shadowrun.  Sure you could become the right hand of Damien Knight in his shadow war against the Insect Spirits or get tapped by Harlequin if he decides to resurrect the Knights of the Crying Spire, but you're not an immortal elf from Earthdawn, a great dragon or the CEO of Renraku.  As far as moving to the very top of the structure, Shadowrun is probably one of the settings in which that is least likely to happen.  But...show me the RQ campaign where a player actually gets to be the High Shaman of Orlanth Thunderous without a serious fast forward and I'll show you a Greyhawk campaign where someone joined the Circle of Eight, or a WFRP campaign where a starting noble eventually became an elector count.  It happens...once in a blue moon full eclipse...but it does happen, and not really in Shadowrun.

Claiming Shadowrun is just 'runs though is an astoundingly close-minded reading of the setting however.  Get a copy of the AD&D1 DMG and pretend Stafford wrote it after doing some peyote and reading a thesaurus, it might change your ideas about what D&D can be too. :D

Again, don't get me wrong, the Cult rules are great, and can be used in a wide variety of settings to great use, and I admit, they were integrated with the setting of Glorantha with an astonishing level of worldbuilding detail.

However, I contest the idea that the "Glorantha Cycle" in that linked essay is anything unique to either RQ2 or Glorantha, it merely describes a system of mutual benefit and feedback between PC goals, PC action, PC advancement, and PC connection to the setting that's part and parcel of a good World in Motion setting.  I think most people probably focus on the Runes as the "unique" aspect, but really that Cult Cycle comes from the scarcity of the Runes, not the Runes themselves.  All you need is to not have unrestricted advancement and you set up the core foundations of the cycle.

The RuneQuest systems do make it more overt, Lord Vreeg's Guildschool system does something similar.  But, many games have rules for scarcity, training, etc that just get handwaved...and of course nothing stops a GM from handwving cult restrictions either.

Quote from: CRKrueger;976635...and D&D was only about "kill things and take their stuff...yeah.  That's what I mean by a good GM doing his job and running a good World in Motion setting.

Then you never had a street samurai doing more and more jobs to get better offers from the Yamatetsu Johnson so that they could get in good with the corp because they were the only ones who had a Delta Clinic in Seattle...or insert megacorp, nation, immortal power faction and desired thing you want or need from that entity here.  Heroquesting?...you ever hear of Harlequin's Back?

Now the one setting structure that is different in RQ is that it does assume that given enough time and proper action and play, that a PC can attain the very highest levels of the Cult.   Possible to do in Greyhawk AD&D say using nothing but the rules in the books and a good GM, not really possible in Shadowrun.  Sure you could become the right hand of Damien Knight in his shadow war against the Insect Spirits or get tapped by Harlequin if he decides to resurrect the Knights of the Crying Spire, but you're not an immortal elf from Earthdawn, a great dragon or the CEO of Renraku.  As far as moving to the very top of the structure, Shadowrun is probably one of the settings in which that is least likely to happen.  But...show me the RQ campaign where a player actually gets to be the High Shaman of Orlanth Thunderous without a serious fast forward and I'll show you a Greyhawk campaign where someone joined the Circle of Eight, or a WFRP campaign where a starting noble eventually became an elector count.  It happens...once in a blue moon full eclipse...but it does happen, and not really in Shadowrun.

Claiming Shadowrun is just 'runs though is an astoundingly close-minded reading of the setting however.  Get a copy of the AD&D1 DMG and pretend Stafford wrote it after doing some peyote and reading a thesaurus, it might change your ideas about what D&D can be too. :D

Thanks for making me rethink cults and then frame Corps as cults, then start viewing shadowrunners as cultists, then put in reputation with the corp as a mechanism to move up the cult ladder, then view access to higher grade cyber ware as Gifts from the cult, and realize that belonging to multiple cults is going to be similar to working for multiple corps and your loyalties and agendas are going to be conflicted. Completely changed how I am thinking about things, and it is going to allow me to use cults where my players wouldn't normally think about them, and probably wouldn't care, but now they will. Damn, nicely done.

I would argue that those figures, save maybe the CEO, are functionally gods, and outside of the cult's power structure. I won't argue too much about how unattainable they are, but I think that it's probably doable in some sense. Might just require achieving the highest levels of Employees of Renraku before you can join up with a select cadre that is less of a cult and more of a different game all together.

On a related note (community and heroes), Saga Thing Podcast had an interesting observation that most. Oder heroes exist without a social network, and often explicitly lose that social network. In other times and cultures (in this case, early Iceland) heroes existed very much within the context of a society with strong social links that drove many behaviors. Makes me think that setting up cults for the gothi of medieval Iceland might be interesting.

@CRKrueger, yeah I agree an experienced GM and willing group can infuse this kind of aspect in most rpgs, specially ones with such rich settings as Shadowrun. Like you said before, perhaps the "how" of Runequest is what is really important here, since it does it in a way that's practical and more or less accurate from a social stanpoint/"verossimile" as you put it.

Quote from: Raleel;976645On a related note (community and heroes), Saga Thing Podcast had an interesting observation that most. Oder heroes exist without a social network, and often explicitly lose that social network. In other times and cultures (in this case, early Iceland) heroes existed very much within the context of a society with strong social links that drove many behaviors. Makes me think that setting up cults for the gothi of medieval Iceland might be interesting.

Bingo. "Heroes in a social network" resumes nicely this aspect in contrast to "heroes in a vaccum" games. Other interesting takes on this besides RQ are Sagas of the Icelanders RPG and Beyond the Wall. The former is all about survival conforming to social expectations, and the latter while more simple keeps community central to the game.

Quote from: Baulderstone;975404Both games have percentile skill systems, but the skill levels and advancement are so different that it has never felt derivative of RQ to me. I've never owned Maelstrom, so I can't weigh in on that one.

You should check it out. It's awesome.

Quote from: RPGPundit;977242You should check it out. It's awesome.

I'll keep a look out for it.

To me, it's a nice little game in the original edition. Was there a lot added in the revised version that was released a few years ago, or am I just forgetting the awesome?

IMO, quite a bit was added in the revised edition, and it was for the better.

As for RQ, there was nothing as such wrong with the system; but I never liked Glorantha as a setting.

Quote from: RPGPundit;978032As for RQ, there was nothing as such wrong with the system; but I never liked Glorantha as a setting.

Me neither. If I ever play Runequest again, I'll be digging out my Games Workshop edition and Vikings book. Is that 3rd? Free of Glorantha, whichever edition it was.

For all the bizarreness of Glorantha, I find it's "myth is real" theme pretty cool, and somewhat unique among fantasy settings.

Quote from: Itachi;978815For all the bizarreness of Glorantha, I find it's "myth is real" theme pretty cool, and somewhat unique among fantasy settings.

I thought all fantasy settings were working the theme of "myth is real"?

Quote from: Dumarest;978818I thought all fantasy settings were working the theme of "myth is real"?

Not that many actually have flat worlds with sky bowls and non-linear time.

And if you really wanna get rid of the disease plaguing your village you don't go for medicines, oh no, you give a beating in Malia the goddess of disease.

Of course, for that to work you must unite your fellow adventurers and go out in a quest to find the stories related to the myth that allows that. Hmmm, maybe that neighbouring village whose patron deity is a healer knows something about it? We should start there. ;)

Good point. In Glorantha diseases are caused by curses and evil spirits.

Quote from: Bren;978826Not that many actually have flat worlds with sky bowls and non-linear time.

Quote from: Itachi;978832And if you really wanna get rid of the disease plaguing your village you don't go for medicines, oh no, you give a beating in Malia the goddess of disease.

Of course, for that to work you must unite your fellow adventurers and go out in a quest to find the stories related to the myth that allows that. Hmmm, maybe that neighbouring village whose patron deity is a healer knows something about it? We should start there. ;)

Quote from: Bren;978834Good point. In Glorantha diseases are caused by curses and evil spirits.

Yeah, the similarities with Exalted's Creation are more than superficial;).

Didn't know Exalted worked on a similar logic. That's cool.

Quote from: Itachi;978865Didn't know Exalted worked on a similar logic. That's cool.

It does, and I'm of the opinion that Glorantha has been a major influence for at least some of the writers:).