To Dark Souls fans, what RPGs do you think best encapsulate the combat system of the Dark Souls video game franchise or aspects of it?
I think Hackmaster does well at incorporating the weapon speeds into its initiative. With a bit of tweaking, the ORE system good do this as well (light weapons add 1 to initiative while heavy weapons subtract 1).
As for stamina management, perhaps Apocalypse Prevention Inc. would be a good fit, since different actions have different stamina costs.
As for the difficulty of pulling certain moves off, perhaps Riddle of Steel works.
I'm thinking perhaps GURPS can encapsulate the system most comprehensively.
What are your opinions and why?
I'd use GURPS (not just because I almost always use GURPS anyway) because it already has a built-in system where the results of combat are determined by the situation, terrain, equipment, skills, where everyone moves when, and what happens specifically during combat, which is already fairly like Dark Souls. Already you've got weapon reach and speed and retreating and acrobatic dodges and slams and so on moving people during the action and possibly having to avoid falling and so on.
The question would remain which optional rules to use or add to have it be more or less like Dark Souls (the arcade/video elements) versus GURPS (more realistic). Dark Souls has a lot of super-strong giants and if you did a straight conversion in GURPS almost all their attacks would tend to be very lethal (or at least take out whatever body part they hit). If you want to match the arcady elements, you'd probably want to look at the more cinematic GURPS optional rules - perks for special action moves and abilities - things in GURPS Action and GURPS Dungeon Fantasy. And/or you could mix in GURPS Martial Arts and/or some of its cinematic rules and master skills, though those tend to be a bit crunchier than the stuff in Action and Dungeon Fantasy.
Isn't there a Fragged Empire variant on Kickstarter right now that claims to do that? I've never played Fragged Empire - so I have no idea how a variation would work at hitting the Dark Souls vibe.
Definitely Earthdawn. All "classed" characters use magic (classic example is the Theif's telekinetic lockpicks), there are Disciplines (classes) dedicated to certain weapons or attack styles (Archer, Scout, Swordsmaster), lots of great magic, a whole spellcasting Discipline dedicated to the undead, spirits, horrors, and the astral plane (Nethermancers are much more than simple necromancers).
I have totally run a high Circle undead (beheaded) troll Nethermancer/Elementalist NPC who had liched himself as this community's wards fell so he could hold off the horrors while they escaped (he tended to hold his head down at his waist level... but trolls are tall, so...). That was the game set in 3 chained-together flying upside-down mountains, which certain wealthy Therans were certain would keep them "well above" the death and destruction of the Scourge. Too bad the largest one (used as the farm/slave community land on it's "new flat upper surface") had already been infested by the Horrors. So, airship chases and dungeon crawls through upside-down fortifications on the "underside" (the old upper surface of the mountain). That was the one game where a player willingly submitted to a Horror (his Named sword was a Horror, which he kept secret) for power in order to defeat all the other Horrors (& corrupted nobles from the "upper island") in the final climax.
Just as an example of how crazy we used to get with the system.
4e D&D? :eek:
Maybe check out the boardgame that was recently kickstarted.
A bit of a letdown after such an interesting thread title: "Dark souls combat? What strange necromancy is he writing about?"
Dark Souls combat is centered around mastering combos, dodges, and parries based on precisely timed combat frames. In other words, it has more in common with Tekken than it does with any tabletop games. And like any attempt to turn a video game into a table game, something fundamental will get lost in translation.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;967981Dark Souls combat is centered around mastering combos, dodges, and parries based on precisely timed combat frames. In other words, it has more in common with Tekken than it does with any tabletop games. And like any attempt to turn a video game into a table game, something fundamental will get lost in translation.
At the same time, it is very much "how do I solo this dungeon" in tactical approach. It has some very D&D tropes baked in: limited use magical items (potions, herbs, etc), _very_ Jacquayed dungeon design, Weapon vs Armor types, Gold = XP = SOULS & you only get what you can carry out of the dungeon to the next campfire. The parallels are what made me recommend Earthdawn, which has also tackles "making sense of D&D tropes".
Why would you want to? Its challenge and thrill, for those who enjoy it, is so closely related to the mechanical structure in the game and timing / combos that to simulate the same style in an RPG would be a nightmarish system. GURPs could handle some of it, but I think I would chock this one up to "not RPG material", if you're focusing on the nonsensical weapon speed / invulnerability / damage things that DS does.
Quote from: Telarus;968023At the same time, it is very much "how do I solo this dungeon" in tactical approach. It has some very D&D tropes baked in: limited use magical items (potions, herbs, etc), _very_ Jacquayed dungeon design, Weapon vs Armor types, Gold = XP = SOULS & you only get what you can carry out of the dungeon to the next campfire. The parallels are what made me recommend Earthdawn, which has also tackles "making sense of D&D tropes".
Being a single-player game isn't really a definitive element of Dark Souls, and neither is losing your stuff when you die. The medium here matters a lot. What really makes those games shine is they way they mashed together the roguelike, the pattern-based platformer, and the fighting game. Take away the parts that are unique to video games, and what you're left with is a solo Player vs DM RPG, which really isn't Dark Souls.
You might as well ask how to turn Quake II into a board game.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;968037You might as well ask how to turn Quake II into a board game.
They made one for Doom - https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/doom/
It even got pretty solid reviews on BoardGameGeek.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;967981Dark Souls combat is centered around mastering combos, dodges, and parries based on precisely timed combat frames. In other words, it has more in common with Tekken than it does with any tabletop games. And like any attempt to turn a video game into a table game, something fundamental will get lost in translation.
Actually, that's a response to how the game is (badly) designed, full of tricks to mask a lot of flaws. The game relies on a lot cheap tricks like massive damage, Tomb of Horror style BS ambushes and a lot of memorization. It also uses the illusion of exploration while funneling the player into following an exact path. It shows you very little of it's mechanics, less so than the games of the 80's and 90's, letting the average player figure out that lock targeting, for example, is a trick to get you killed. That the spear and shield is the best tools in the game for combat survival. It also punishes you for using it's basic learning tool, death, with a myriad of respawn and in the second game, a health penalty.
So I have to ask: What part of this can you not mimic via D&D?
I also can't see the point in trying to replicate Dark Souls combat to tabletop. Gurps or Riddle of Steel can do it with one leg and a hand in the back... But then what's the point? What makes the videogame fun is more related to the medium than anything else.
Aspects more interesting to capture, I think, would be the immortality of your character and its relation to souls and humanity. A DS tabletop adaptation should be more concerned with that than specifics of combat. Even then, the series solitude/sense of isolation is so important that I can't imagine how to capture it with a group.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;968066So I have to ask: What part of this can you not mimic via D&D?
I can't understand the relation. A combat exchange in the videogame takes 1 second, while in tabletop D&D it takes a couple minutes. Are you saying the ending experience is the same?
Quote from: Itachi;968076I can't understand the relation. A combat exchange in the videogame takes 1 second, while in tabletop D&D it takes a couple minutes. Are you saying the ending experience is the same?
Honestly? Yes. The average combat in Dark Souls lasts a few minutes, because of all the waiting a player has to do until an opening shows itself. Often a player gets 1 attack every 6 seconds.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;968078Honestly? Yes. The average combat in Dark Souls lasts a few minutes, because of all the waiting a player has to do until an opening shows itself. Often a player gets 1 attack every 6 seconds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTbQ_2RKoH4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTbQ_2RKoH4)
That's 4 seconds for the first enemy, and 30 seconds for the other 4 (and that's with some trekking between some of them)
"A few minutes" in Dark Souls is enough to kill a dozen enemies or more, depending on build, level and stage. To defeat the same number of enemies in D&D (or most other tabletop game) it takes a lot of time, from dozens of minutes to hours.
You're being disingenous, Christopher.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;968066So I have to ask: What part of this can you not mimic via D&D?
Timing and reflexes.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;968088Timing and reflexes.
I think you're missing the point of the OP's question.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;968090I think you're missing the point of the OP's question.
I think the OP is missing the point Dark Souls combat.
My timing and reflexes suck and I've beat all three Dark Souls and Demon's Souls games multiple times.
Quote from: Voros;968103My timing and reflexes suck and I've beat all three Dark Souls and Demon's Souls games multiple times.
Same. The game doesn't need it, because it's about waiting and pattern recognition. So D&D can do it as well as any other.
Is this appropriate?
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/wadedyer/fragged-empire-rpg-expanded/posts/1910547
Quote from: Christopher Brady;968112Same. The game doesn't need it, because it's about waiting and pattern recognition. So D&D can do it as well as any other.
Explain how "waiting" works without "time."
Seriously. Just explain to me how you can parry an enemy in Demon's Souls without actually hitting the button at the right time. Is there some turn-based mode I don't know about?
Quote from: Voros;968103My timing and reflexes suck and I've beat all three Dark Souls and Demon's Souls games multiple times.
They obviously aren't
that bad, since the games aren't turn-based.
Why is Chris so pissed at Souls games? Come on Chris, sit here, let's talk. Show me where Miyazaki touched you. :D
It actually sounds like a potentially interesting sort of thing to do with GURPS, to me. I would leave out some bits, but basically it sounds interesting to me as an adventure that presents various types of diverse difficult-seeming tactical puzzles and situations, and lets players try to figure out how to solve them. That seems to me like a pretty good fit for GURPS, though the GM or scenario designer would (I think) want to go into some good detail specifying the habits and limitations of the giant/deadly monsters in terms of how them move, which directions they can see and attack in, what hex shape they take up and where their reach and weak points are, what the effects are of wounds to different parts of them are, interesting attack details with strengths and weaknesses, etc. I think it could be pretty interesting if anyone took the time to do that.
Of course, I am imagining the kinds of things I like to get into in GURPS tactical combat being used instead of the twitchy gameplay in the video games. And I have only played a limited amount of DS1 and seen some videos and so on - there may be parts that would be hard to make work - I don't know. Also, of course, it would be for players who are interested in playing out detailed tactical combats.
Quote from: ronwisegamgee;967546To Dark Souls fans, what RPGs do you think best encapsulate the combat system of the Dark Souls video game franchise or aspects of it?
I think Hackmaster does well at incorporating the weapon speeds into its initiative. With a bit of tweaking, the ORE system good do this as well (light weapons add 1 to initiative while heavy weapons subtract 1).
As for stamina management, perhaps Apocalypse Prevention Inc. would be a good fit, since different actions have different stamina costs.
As for the difficulty of pulling certain moves off, perhaps Riddle of Steel works.
I'm thinking perhaps GURPS can encapsulate the system most comprehensively.
What are your opinions and why?
Now that I have watched a video of it, Mythras would do this well.
Fatigue is already in game and handled via CON. Endurance rolls after a few rounds of combat and it debilitated your skills. Special effects would cover your moves. Probably have to rig up something for using a claymore in one hand, but you can do a long sword in one hand or two hands.
Quote from: Itachi;968194Why is Chris so pissed at Souls games? Come on Chris, sit here, let's talk. Show me where Miyazaki touched you. :D
Off Topic:
I'm not pissed at the game. I'm actually confused at how easily fooled the younger generations are. Are there no actually 'hard' or 'challenging' games anymore that people are willing to be tricked into thinking that waiting and cheap tricks are 'difficulty'?
To be honest, I like the idea behind Dark Souls. But it's built on lies and tricks. People claim it's about exploration, but there are places you shouldn't go, because you won't survive it. That's not exploration, that's funneling into a linear progression path.
Massive damage is not difficult, it's there to mask the ease of pattern that each boss has.
It's also full of cheap tricks like the AI's accurate bombing of the player through walls (The undead zone in the first game is notorious for this abuse), gotcha style ambushes and unavoidable damage.
The only thing I will praise it for is that it doesn't change it's rules on you. Unlike say the old Super Mario game where some deathtraps aren't, but there aren't any clues as to which are safe, and which are not.
Now, don't get me wrong, it's a simple game, but it wasn't easy to beat for me. I died well over 200 times in the first game, and maybe more in the second (I never got to play the third, although, I'd like to. I want to like the games, I really do), but I finished them. But I got no satisfaction with each achievement because the difficulty pacing is just bad. It was tedious.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;968181Explain how "waiting" works without "time."
Seriously. Just explain to me how you can parry an enemy in Demon's Souls without actually hitting the button at the right time. Is there some turn-based mode I don't know about?
I suck at parrying and only really used it to get past the Silver Knights in Anor Londo and the last boss in DS1. You can complete the games in other ways. I consider DS closer to a puzzle game than a twitch/reflex game.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;968336I'm not pissed at the game. I'm actually confused at how easily fooled the younger generations are. Are there no actually 'hard' or 'challenging' games anymore that people are willing to be tricked into thinking that waiting and cheap tricks are 'difficulty'?
I've found the game difficult only the first playthrough, then it gets pretty easy (well, for the most part). Which leads me to your second point..
QuoteTo be honest, I like the idea behind Dark Souls. But it's built on lies and tricks. People claim it's about exploration, but there are places you shouldn't go, because you won't survive it. That's not exploration, that's funneling into a linear progression path.
That is true for your first playthrough but false from here onwards, because once you learn the game mechanics the "impossible" areas open up right from the beginning (like New Londo, Cathacombs or Lower Burg in first game, Nightmare Frontier and Hunter's Nightmare in Bloodborne, Lothric Castle in third, etc). Besides that, there is so much optional side-stuff (items, levels, bosses) everyplace that, even if you were right, the game would still reward exploration. So, I disagree with your argument of "false exploration".
Other than that, I agree with you that the game gained a fame for difficulty that's misleading. It's a simple game of learning patterns (or puzzles, as Voros said). I particularly love Dark Souls 1 and Bloodborne, and find these games the best thing to come out in a very long time, but I admit part of it is related to it's intangibles (the environmental storytelling, the lack of exposition/deductive quality of it's plots, the moody atmospheres, tension and sense of accomplishment when fighting bosses, etc).
Blade of the Iron Throne?
That D&D rip off Mearls wrote?
Not sure why anyone would want to emulate Dark Souls combat but hey to each their own.