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After 40+ years of RPG publications, the edition treadmill has gotten so tiresome. In the news lately, Shadowrun has just leapfrogged D&D to have a 6e. Pathfinder now has a 2e. It seems everywhere you look, some game or another is getting updated for... what reason? Simple money grab?

I'm thinking though, that 13th Age and Dungeon Crawl Classics might keep on just as they are. Other OSR games probably will remain the same too. And Call of Cthulhu, even though it technically has gotten new editions, remains quite compatible throughout the line.

What other games can we reliably play 10 or 20 years from now, without having to learn a whole new ruleset?

Quote from: Robyo;1101174After 40+ years of RPG publications, the edition treadmill has gotten so tiresome. In the news lately, Shadowrun has just leapfrogged D&D to have a 6e. Pathfinder now has a 2e. It seems everywhere you look, some game or another is getting updated for... what reason? Simple money grab?

I'm thinking though, that 13th Age and Dungeon Crawl Classics might keep on just as they are. Other OSR games probably will remain the same too. And Call of Cthulhu, even though it technically has gotten new editions, remains quite compatible throughout the line.

What other games can we reliably play 10 or 20 years from now, without having to learn a whole new ruleset?

You actually never have to learn a new ruleset.  Just continue playing the one you have.

I think it would be neat if DCC was evergreen.

The Street Fighter RPG only had one edition since it was part of a licensing deal that ended in the mid-90's

While it's officially out of print, it also has fan support including the fan-made "20th Anniversary Edition" which compiles all the old material into one volume and also features character write-ups for the newer Street Fighter games.

It's evergreen entirely due to fan support, and it reminds me of the early OSR in a lot of ways.

Call of Cthulhu is up to, what 7 editions now plus all the extra Trail of Cthulhu knock offs.

Of the games that I have a copy of, maybe Stargate SG-1 by AEG.  I cant see that getting a 2nd edition.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1101178The Street Fighter RPG only had one edition since it was part of a licensing deal that ended in the mid-90's

While it's officially out of print, it also has fan support including the fan-made "20th Anniversary Edition" which compiles all the old material into one volume and also features character write-ups for the newer Street Fighter games.

It's evergreen entirely due to fan support, and it reminds me of the early OSR in a lot of ways.

You are the gift that keeps on giving, Doc

Rifts or just about any rpg from Palladium Books. Harnmaster is another.

The newer editions are mostly for cash grabs yet sometimes in the case of both above they are required as the current rules while still serviceable and clunky as hell to use imo.

(Broken record): Lejendary Adventure :D

It's very unlikely that one of my personal favorites, Swashbucklers of the 7 Skies, will ever see a second edition. Nor its older supers genre brother, Truth & Justice. The author for these games seems to have moved on entirely from gaming.

While Witchcraft may have technically been a second edition already (was it?), I don't think we'll ever see that game break free of the 1990's. There's a certain charm to that, to be sure, but it also kinda makes me sad.

I think many, maybe most, are indeed cash grabs. But sometimes I think the author just wants to do something different with their creation, and that can be cool.

It seems Castles and Crusades is fairly stable.

Street Fighter RPG has been really, really fun. Would love to play again.

Quote from: sureshot;1101206Rifts or just about any rpg from Palladium Books.

Arguably, RUE was a collection of edits and changes that makes it a 2nd edition even if it's not called one.

Quote from: sureshot;1101206Rifts or just about any rpg from Palladium Books. Harnmaster is another.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1101242Arguably, RUE was a collection of edits and changes that makes it a 2nd edition even if it's not called one.

There are multiple editions of HarnMaster that have been released. Currently on I believe 3rd from columbia game and a seperate company has their own edition.

Also unlike many games RUE is compatable with all prior material with no conversion or upgrading required so I don't really see it as a new edition. Now if you were to point out Palladium Fantasy, Beyond the Supernatural, After the Bomb, or even Heroes Unlimited I would say they are different enough to be full new editions.


SR 6th ed is not a jump ahead of D&D in editions since D&D had multiple editions of D&D and 2 editions of AD&D, and then went back to calling itself just D&D with what it called 3rd ed but that is not really accurate. It's kind of like trying to figure out how many editions of Traveller there are...

Classic Traveller
Mega Traveller
Traveller the New Era
Marc Miller's Traveller
D20 Traveller
GURPS Traveller
Hero Traveller
Mongoose Traveller
Mongoose Traveller 2
Traveller 5th Ed
Traveller 5.10

I'm sure I'm missing some.

Quote from: Shasarak;1101181Call of Cthulhu is up to, what 7 editions now plus all the extra Trail of Cthulhu knock offs.

Yeah, but if you open your first CoC product up and then pop open 7th edition, you could feasibly use 95% of the stuff in one book as source material for the other.

Although, to be fair, I've never handled a CoC 1st edition book, only 2nd edition onwards...

How much does backwards compatibility count? You can run 1e Savage Worlds campaign books with the current newest edition with on-the-fly conversion. So in that sense, Savage Worlds.

Do you also count games that are dead? Because tons of RPGs will never have another edition because they stopped making more material.

Do you count dying games like GURPS? It won't have another edition. It is still producing some books.

D&D 5e may not make another edition. Hasbro wanted an evergreen edition going into 5e and if that stance hasn't changed with the success, then there may never be another edition of D&D. Hasbro doesn't need you to play D&D all your life. It just needs new people buying the core books each year to be happy and they will create a few splat books for enthusiasts.

I'm guessing what you are after is games that will keep being in print forever without a new edition to shake things up. I think Stars Without Number and other print-on-demand books can hold that title. I don't see SWN coming out with another edition and I don't predict new splat books released for it forever, but I expect it to keep selling among the niche/hungry Sci-fi RPG crowd for a very long time.

Quote from: BronzeDragon;1101268Yeah, but if you open your first CoC product up and then pop open 7th edition, you could feasibly use 95% of the stuff in one book as source material for the other.

Although, to be fair, I've never handled a CoC 1st edition book, only 2nd edition onwards...

So every CoC "edition" has just been a blatant money grab?  And the Keepers put up with that?

COC 7E has significantly revised a whole bunch of stuff.

I'd love a new edition of Witchcraft

Quote from: Shasarak;1101276So every CoC "edition" has just been a blatant money grab?  And the Keepers put up with that?

If the editions are compatible, it means that the players aren't forced to buy the new edition. Their old edition works fine, but the new edition is there to make the game a little better for newer players. That's how editions of games usually work - in board games and card games, for example. Someone who bought 1st edition Pandemic doesn't feel the need to rush out and buy the new edition when it comes out.

My impression is that this has generally been true of Call of Cthulhu. A Keeper who bought the 3rd edition didn't feel any compulsion to buy the 4th edition, and it wasn't marketed that way.

For CoC, the 7th edition is a little different. I did feel like it was marketed as an important new buy.

I suppose the conceit of the question is that these games do not NEED another edition..? In other words, they are fine as-is? Honestly, I think the 1st edition of most of the RPGs I have are the best ones. I suppose that could be another thread: What RPGs SHOULDN'T Have Had More Than One Edition

That said, here are a few that have only one edition that are highly playable (and most will never see another edition due to lack of interest or dead authors or IP issues):

Dragon Warriors
MSPE
James Bond
A ton of old FGU stuff

Quote from: Shasarak;1101181Of the games that I have a copy of, maybe Stargate SG-1 by AEG.  I cant see that getting a 2nd edition.

That's a good book. I wish it saw more support.

I think Spycraft got a 2nd edition. I remember that game was pretty big for a time. I am kinda surprised it hasn't been revived.

Quote from: Brad;1101286Dragon Warriors

I could have sworn that I read about a second edition of Dragon Warriors somewhere.

Quote from: brettmb;1101293I could have sworn that I read about a second edition of Dragon Warriors somewhere.

It's not a true second edition, more like reorganizing the digest books into a better format. When I say "not a true second edition", I mean literally nothing changed other than presentation. Technically, though, you're correct, but I took the question to be something more like "no changes to rules" or whatever.

Quote from: Brad;1101297It's not a true second edition, more like reorganizing the digest books into a better format. When I say "not a true second edition", I mean literally nothing changed other than presentation. Technically, though, you're correct, but I took the question to be something more like "no changes to rules" or whatever.

Thanks. I guess they feel it's good enough.

Quote from: Azraele;1101184You are the gift that keeps on giving, Doc

Hey, I try my best. Based and Capcom-pilled.

Quote from: Brad;1101286I suppose the conceit of the question is that these games do not NEED another edition..? In other words, they are fine as-is? Honestly, I think the 1st edition of most of the RPGs I have are the best ones. I suppose that could be another thread: What RPGs SHOULDN'T Have Had More Than One Edition

That said, here are a few that have only one edition that are highly playable (and most will never see another edition due to lack of interest or dead authors or IP issues):

Dragon Warriors
MSPE
James Bond
A ton of old FGU stuff

Though there are obviously surprises with the FGU stuff... Chivalry and Sorcery and Bunnies and Burrows... Who knows what else.

Of course some FGU properties were already 2nd editions (Bushido for one).

Also, eventually these properties will become public domain and then all bets are off for subsequent editions.

And locked up IP issues can resolve other ways. Look at the re-release of The Fantasy Trip, long assumed to be dead (other than clones).

Quote from: Robyo;1101174After 40+ years of RPG publications, the edition treadmill has gotten so tiresome. In the news lately, Shadowrun has just leapfrogged D&D to have a 6e. Pathfinder now has a 2e. It seems everywhere you look, some game or another is getting updated for... what reason? Simple money grab?

I'm thinking though, that 13th Age and Dungeon Crawl Classics might keep on just as they are. Other OSR games probably will remain the same too. And Call of Cthulhu, even though it technically has gotten new editions, remains quite compatible throughout the line.

What other games can we reliably play 10 or 20 years from now, without having to learn a whole new ruleset?

Aventuras en la Marca Estelar, a spanish space opera based on the Adventures in the western marches. Got such a bad reception it will never get a new edition or modules.

Dave Morris is working on a Second Edition of Dragon Warriors currently. He's been showing off bits on his blog and facebook.

Quote from: lordmalachdrim;1101379Dave Morris is working on a Second Edition of Dragon Warriors currently. He's been showing off bits on his blog and facebook.

Well, tells you what I know...

Edition is a tricky, often bullshit word. So often, its just a reprinting with some cosmetic alterations. Shadowrun, however, is a weird one. Each edition steps forward and backward.

AD&D 1e is just a cleanup of the OD&D core + supplements.
AD&D 2e is just 1.5e.
D&D 3e & 4e are truly new editions as they (for better or worse) radically alter the previous game.
5e is an amalgam of 1e-4e so its worthy of being called a new edition.

Castles & Crusades probably won't do a 2e for a while. They seem happy with incremental changes via reprints and putting out their various alternate player books.

OSRIC definitely won't get a new edition!

As for the other OSR games, I could see DCC getting a new edition in the far future (20th anniversary maybe), but the rest of the retroclones will probably stay as-is. Personally, Mutant Future could use a revamp.

I never read Stars Without Numbers 2nd Edition. Is it truly a new edition?

Quote from: Spinachcat;1101464I never read Stars Without Numbers 2nd Edition. Is it truly a new edition?

I would say Yes, and I will be even more bold to say SWN 2E is not an OSR game (at least in terms of system) but a stripped down 3rd-era game. Here's why:

Classes: The warrior, expert, and psychic had D8, D6, and D4 HD respectively. In 2E, it's D6, D6, and D6+2. In addition, there's a fourth class called Adventurer, which allows you to play partial warriors, partial experts, and partial psychics.

Core Mechanic: This is the main infusion of 3E DNA. 1E used descending AC, with D20 + bonuses - AC >= 20. Second edition uses ascending AC, with D20 + bonuses >= AC.

Skills: 1E had a surprising amount of skills (about 40) and 2E trims this down to 19 broad-based skills. They are all verbs, which struck me as weird for some reason. Sometimes this works well (notice, lead, heal) but other times not so much (exert, sneak, work.) Could be me, but it has a very new-school vibe to it.

Feats, I mean Foci: 2E introduces more 3E DNA in the form of Foci. Lke 3E, you get more as you advance levels. There are essentially 50 of them (25 with 2 unique ranks each.) I like feats, but they aren't OSR.

Saves: 1E had a fun array-- Physical, Mental, Evasion, Tech, Luck. 2E has Physical, Evasion, and Mental, which sounds awfully close to 3E's F/R/W.

Production values: 1E has that wonderful feel of a homebrew done right, with B&W line art that's all over the place in a quirky way, and enthusiasm on every page. 2E seems... polished. Grown-up. Stable. The art is colorful, smooth, and honestly a bit dull. 2E just doesn't have that OSR feel.


Don't get me wrong, I think Kevin Crawford is one of the best game designers around. For example, this background list is pure genius:

d20 Background

1 Barbarian, born of a primitive world
2 Clergy, a consecrated man or woman
3 Courtesan, trading on pleasurable company
4 Criminal. thief, rogue, liar, or worse
5 Dilettante, with money if not purpose
6 Entertainer, artful and beguiling
7 Merchant, whether peddler or far trader
8 Noble, by blood or by social capital
9 Official, a functionary of some greater state
10 Peasant, whether primitive or high-tech
11 Physician, a healer of the sick and maimed
12 Pilot, or rider, or sailor, or vehicle-driver
13 Politician, aspiring to leadership and control
14 Scholar, a scientist or academic
15 Soldier, whether mercenary or conscript
16 Spacer, dwelling in the deep-space habs
17 Technician, artisan, engineer, or builder
18 Thug, ruffian, or strong arm of the people
19 Vagabond, roaming without a home
20 Worker, a cube drone or day laborer

In fact, I want characters to use that instead of classes. I don't want Experts and Warriors-- I want Pilots, Criminals, and Vagabonds. All that's missing is a Psychic career. Or, I want to see a character that is Pilot 2, Criminal 1, Vagabond 1. Or...

...or I should just use Cepheus Engine. I never thought that when I read through 1E.

I hate to be critical, since I have only skimmed it, and I will gladly stand corrected by someone who has read it more thoroughly. Yet even a cursory read has a certain validity, since it did not inspire me to keep reading.

There are some amazing ideas here, but the whole product just doesn't inspire me the way 1E did. The main problem is that the game feels like it has outgrown it's B/X structure and moved on.

Quote from: Aglondir;1101525I would say Yes, and I will be even more bold to say SWN 2E is not an OSR game (at least in terms of system) but a stripped down 3rd-era game. Here's why:

Classes: The warrior, expert, and psychic had D8, D6, and D4 HD respectively. In 2E, it's D6, D6, and D6+2. In addition, there's a fourth class called Adventurer, which allows you to play partial warriors, partial experts, and partial psychics.

Core Mechanic: This is the main infusion of 3E DNA. 1E used descending AC, with D20 + bonuses - AC >= 20. Second edition uses ascending AC, with D20 + bonuses >= AC.

Skills: 1E had a surprising amount of skills (about 40) and 2E trims this down to 19 broad-based skills. They are all verbs, which struck me as weird for some reason. Sometimes this works well (notice, lead, heal) but other times not so much (exert, sneak, work.) Could be me, but it has a very new-school vibe to it.

Feats, I mean Foci: 2E introduces more 3E DNA in the form of Foci. Lke 3E, you get more as you advance levels. There are essentially 50 of them (25 with 2 unique ranks each.) I like feats, but they aren't OSR.

Saves: 1E had a fun array-- Physical, Mental, Evasion, Tech, Luck. 2E has Physical, Evasion, and Mental, which sounds awfully close to 3E's F/R/W.

Production values: 1E has that wonderful feel of a homebrew done right, with B&W line art that's all over the place in a quirky way, and enthusiasm on every page. 2E seems... polished. Grown-up. Stable. The art is colorful, smooth, and honestly a bit dull. 2E just doesn't have that OSR feel.


Don't get me wrong, I think Kevin Crawford is one of the best game designers around. For example, this background list is pure genius:

d20 Background

1 Barbarian, born of a primitive world
2 Clergy, a consecrated man or woman
3 Courtesan, trading on pleasurable company
4 Criminal. thief, rogue, liar, or worse
5 Dilettante, with money if not purpose
6 Entertainer, artful and beguiling
7 Merchant, whether peddler or far trader
8 Noble, by blood or by social capital
9 Official, a functionary of some greater state
10 Peasant, whether primitive or high-tech
11 Physician, a healer of the sick and maimed
12 Pilot, or rider, or sailor, or vehicle-driver
13 Politician, aspiring to leadership and control
14 Scholar, a scientist or academic
15 Soldier, whether mercenary or conscript
16 Spacer, dwelling in the deep-space habs
17 Technician, artisan, engineer, or builder
18 Thug, ruffian, or strong arm of the people
19 Vagabond, roaming without a home
20 Worker, a cube drone or day laborer

In fact, I want characters to use that instead of classes. I don't want Experts and Warriors-- I want Pilots, Criminals, and Vagabonds. All that's missing is a Psychic career. Or, I want to see a character that is Pilot 2, Criminal 1, Vagabond 1. Or...

...or I should just use Cepheus Engine. I never thought that when I read through 1E.

I hate to be critical, since I have only skimmed it, and I will gladly stand corrected by someone who has read it more thoroughly. Yet even a cursory read has a certain validity, since it did not inspire me to keep reading.

There are some amazing ideas here, but the whole product just doesn't inspire me the way 1E did. The main problem is that the game feels like it has outgrown it's B/X structure and moved on.

Oh I would say it is still OSR, SWN revised edition is also a modern game though. His reason for foci is very sound, "it gives players more bits to keep them engaged with the system". He knows what the bits are for and adds just enough to fill a need rather than bloat his game.

Quote from: Shasarak;1101276So every CoC "edition" has just been a blatant money grab?  And the Keepers put up with that?

We are Cthulhu's bitches, one and all.

Quote from: Brad;1101286Honestly, I think the 1st edition of most of the RPGs I have are the best ones.

This is generally true. An rpg is like sex: enthusiasm is more important than skill. And the first editions were made with no guaranteed audience, generally few resources like artists and editors, so they have buckets of enthusiasm and teaspoons of skill. The person wrote it because they had something to say, something they thought others might enjoy, and it shows on every page.

2nd and later editions more people get involved in making it, there's a lot more second-guessing and back-and-forth, so the skill rises but the enthusiasm dies down. If the game gets big enough, some of the people involved in producing it won't even game. And it shows on every page.

I can't say I've ever had a game I liked where I found myself pining for a new edition. Some rules will get tweaked or dropped as we familiarize ourselves with the rules... but it's not likely a new version will mimic those choices anyway. I generally don't care about game art either... which seems to drive some publishers to revamp the look of a game.
If designers want to significantly change a game I'd rather they just creates something entirely new... or label it as an offshoot of the original, as with Pulp Cthulhu, rather than trying to shove in trendy mechanics and pretend it's the same game.