Does anyone know of a good system for a game similar to Game of Thrones, where players are powerful nobles instead of plucky adventurers? I'm considering a setting based on the Wars of the Roses or Hussite Wars.
I'm aware of the official A Song of Ice and Fire RPG, but I can't say I've heard many positive views of how it plays. I'm considering Burning Wheel or Reign, as they seem to fit this setting well.
The recently released Sword Chronicle is kind of a generic take on the basic GoT idea, i.e. you generate characters not just as free individuals but as members of a noble house with specific connections, obligations and resources, and gameplay is as much about advancing your House's goals as it is about gaining personal power.
As I understand it it's another version of the AGE system, so those familiar with those rules can judge on that basis.
Well... using DTRPG as the pointer.
The Sword, the Crown, and the Unspeakable Power (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/239692/The-Sword-The-Crown-and-The-Unspeakable-Power) is a PbtA game that is supposed to be inspired by AGOT. I've tried it. I was not impressed by it. I feel like it's pretty stale as far as PbtA goes. It doesn't really PUSH very hard, IMO. There are playbooks, and hints of a setting drama, but it's very generic. There's way more world-building in Legacy: Life Amongst the Ruins, including House politics, and it isn't even made to be an AGOT game.
World-books based on Legacy: Life Amongst the Ruins might be more/better in that regard. These really evoke a House, House politics, and playing as scions of a House in a long-running, generation-spanning game. Free From the Yoke (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/283821/Free-From-the-Yoke) (based on the historical Rus when they were freed from the Tartar Yoke) and Legacy: Godsend (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/242794/Legacy-Godsend-Worlds-of-Legacy-3-PDF) (where your individuals are avatars of the god, like the Red Woman)... these might be better. "Free from the Yoke" might be best. Just replace the Tartar Yoke with the Targaryens (especially since the game doesn't specify the Tartars, and instead has a generic "Empire" that you can fill with your own ideas), and you have something that could be like the 7 Kingdoms.
In Age of Anarchy (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/230538/Age-of-Anarchy), you're playing nobles in the court of a Lord in Norman England. Support your lord, sabotage rivals, etc.
There's Houses of the Blooded (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/61061/Houses-of-the-Blooded), of course. That's been around a while. He wrote it as the anti-D&D. Instead of being house-less Murder Hobos, you're playing the leaders of noble Houses. You have peons who do the murdering for you. That's the point.
Oh, and the DUNE (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/338242/Dune--Adventures-in-the-Imperium--Core-Rulebook-Standard-Edition) RPG from Modiphius... although the House side of the game is poorly implemented at this point. Nascent. They should flesh it out later, and the potential is there for greatness. It just ain't there yet.
Classic Traveller, Mongoose Traveller 1e, and Cepheus Engine can handle political games easily. Most of the other Traveller versions can as well.
So can Mekton II and Mekton Zeta.
Also d6 Star Wars, any version.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 01:12:32 AM
Also d6 Star Wars, any version.
My preference would be D6 System, yes - Mini Six or D6 Space/Adventure/Fantasy depending on the genre. Alternative would be BRP such as Pendragon, Runequest, maybe Call of Cthulu. I would not use a Storygame as I would want to maximise you-are-there immersion. D&D based systems provide a lot of support elements for domain play, eg ACKS has good stuff, but I think class & level-based systems are overall not a good choice for intrigue, and D&D in particular is too high magic. D&D handles Ned Stark & Jamie Lannister & Jon Snow & Arya type PCs, but is terrible for Margaery or Oleanna Tyrell. For me D6 is the perfect mix of generic & action design; BRP is perfect for grittier stuff like GoT season 1-2.
edit: in practice I incorporate a lot of politics and intrigue into my D&D games; PCs go from landless mercenaries to movers and shakers, with lands and titles. But this is very different from starting out as eg Caityln Stark; IMC the Caitlyn Stark types are NPCs, where Littlefinger looks like a PC.
GURPS, and at least one book I have (the Imperial rome sourcebook) has a suggestion for a campaign structure where the family is central to the player, and the politics are there. Many advantages in GURPS are there that can simulate political connections (same with disadvantages and enemies). Toss in a way to have mass battles as well as the baseline humans without cinematic advantages in combat and you have a pretty grounded simulation of mundane humans in a fantasy setting dealing with politics and commanding troops.
Maybe some white wolf type series since a lot of them deal with intrigue, backstabbing, conspiracy, deception, manipulation, etc. I think they even made a dark age setting once.
Maybe you could use rules for things like humanity loss rules to simulate the corruption politics and power have on people.
There's a fantasy Traveller variant out there and surely it handles nobles.
GURPS has a realm management system. For those who aren't big fans of GURPS points buy making nobles less effective combatants, just hand out the rank you want them to have. Tell them Status 4 or 5 is automatic and free but if you ditch it you don't get the points, plain and simple. You might even want to do a package the PCs are required to take that includes some management and accounting skill, wealth, and allies and contacts. Because GURPS has the tools needed to build social networks but getting players to take them can be like pulling teeth.
Quote from: David Johansen on July 03, 2022, 09:08:39 AM
There's a fantasy Traveller variant out there and surely it handles nobles.
GURPS has a realm management system. For those who aren't big fans of GURPS points buy making nobles less effective combatants, just hand out the rank you want them to have. Tell them Status 4 or 5 is automatic and free but if you ditch it you don't get the points, plain and simple. You might even want to do a package the PCs are required to take that includes some management and accounting skill, wealth, and allies and contacts. Because GURPS has the tools needed to build social networks but getting players to take them can be like pulling teeth.
The thing is...that status 4 or 5 noble has MUCH better access to things like great gear, weapon masters to teach them the advantage (if you use it), mercenaries or house troops that can follow them on adventures, etc that more than make up for a few more points in a weapon skill or a point of DX or couple ST. I agree players do not see that if they are a bit newer, but if they understand they will interacted with as an equal or superior regarding most encounters they have...it tends to look better and better all the time. Combat effectiveness is easier to grow than having high wealth, status, and a monthly income to draw from. For my players, a noble in the group makes a BIG difference if they are looking for hired mercenaries as well, since the mercenaries tend to be familiar with who has a name and who does not. That said, I do agree players do not always see how big those advantages are in a game that cleaves a little closer to reality than being travelling murder hobos.
Sure, but my point remains, if you really want the campaign to be about X the only to ensure that is to give them X for free. They can always take Secret (X, imprisonment or even death) [-15], if they don't like it. "You're really the king and second greatest swordsman in the kingdom?" "No, no, I'm just a wandering bard." A harp string snaps with a loud twang.
Quote from: David Johansen on July 03, 2022, 09:47:44 AM
"You're really the king and second greatest swordsman in the kingdom?" "No, no, I'm just a wandering bard." A harp string snaps with a loud twang.
Great Belin! A Fflam is cunning!
I did a Middle Earth / Prydain crossover some years back. Aragorn and Gwydon were pretty much instant friends but Legolas thought Fflewdyr was a bit of a useless boob until they got attacked by trolls and Fflewdyr killed one by diving off a cliff to drive his sword through its neck. A desperate Fflam is a dangerous Fflam. I'd rather fight Gwydon than Fflewdyr because Gwydon will fight honorably and accept surrender. Fflewdyr will kick you in the nuts and stab you while you're begging on the ground because if he's going to fight he's not going to be the one doing the dying.
I must not be myself today, I almost posted without mentioning that The Arcane Confabulation was designed to support high level and political play though the realm management rules are in the still unfinished companion.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 03, 2022, 12:34:00 AM
The recently released Sword Chronicle is kind of a generic take on the basic GoT idea, i.e. you generate characters not just as free individuals but as members of a noble house with specific connections, obligations and resources, and gameplay is as much about advancing your House's goals as it is about gaining personal power.
As I understand it it's another version of the AGE system, so those familiar with those rules can judge on that basis.
Just to clarify:
Sword Chronicle is not part of AGE system, but is their Game of Thrones rpg without the IP. So, it's a GoT game right out of the gate. It uses what they call the "Chronicle system". While it does use only 6-sided dice (like AGE) its a level-less system where you roll pools of dice and count successes. The new generic version now also includes fantasy races and magic.
Quote from: David Johansen on July 03, 2022, 09:47:44 AM
Sure, but my point remains, if you really want the campaign to be about X the only to ensure that is to give them X for free. They can always take Secret (X, imprisonment or even death) [-15], if they don't like it. "You're really the king and second greatest swordsman in the kingdom?" "No, no, I'm just a wandering bard." A harp string snaps with a loud twang.
Oh I agree with you, I was just pointing how players often miss how much those advantages can be leveraged in a game.
Quote from: David Johansen on July 03, 2022, 09:08:39 AMGURPS has a realm management system.
Do you know what book that was in? I have the two 3rd-edition Compendia and I don't remember seeing it in there.
Quote from: World_Warrior on July 03, 2022, 04:12:06 PMJust to clarify: Sword Chronicle is not part of AGE system, but is their Game of Thrones rpg without the IP. So, it's a GoT game right out of the gate. It uses what they call the "Chronicle system". While it does use only 6-sided dice (like AGE) its a level-less system where you roll pools of dice and count successes. The new generic version now also includes fantasy races and magic.
Thanks for the additional data -- I admit to having been too lazy to look this up myself, I just remembered the name and a few reviews.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 04, 2022, 01:39:50 AM
Quote from: David Johansen on July 03, 2022, 09:08:39 AMGURPS has a realm management system.
Do you know what book that was in? I have the two 3rd-edition Compendia and I don't remember seeing it in there.
I just searched around a bit because I was curious, and it looks like it's one of the PDFs released for 4th edition. You can find it at Warehouse 23. There's also Boardroom & Curia for organizations, and it may be based to some degree on the earlier GURPS City Stats.
4e might need some Compendia.
Pendragon comes to mind. Chivalry & Sorcery can also be played that way. TSR's Birthright Setting is also good, but AD&D isn't really a good match for it.
ACKs is currently my favorite domain/political set of rules. Axiom #3 coves this from the empire level down to how profitable is your small peasant holding.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 04, 2022, 01:39:50 AM
Quote from: David Johansen on July 03, 2022, 09:08:39 AMGURPS has a realm management system.
Do you know what book that was in? I have the two 3rd-edition Compendia and I don't remember seeing it in there.
It's in GURPS Realm Management and came out in the last year or two.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 01:12:32 AM
... So can Mekton II and Mekton Zeta.
If I recall correctly, nobility is even on the life path charts. If you allow some picking and choosing on those tables, you can have a fine mess of betrayals, alliances, and assassinations. :-)
Quote from: SMSDerfflinger on July 03, 2022, 12:21:37 AM
Does anyone know of a good system for a game similar to Game of Thrones, where players are powerful nobles instead of plucky adventurers? I'm considering a setting based on the Wars of the Roses or Hussite Wars.
I'm aware of the official A Song of Ice and Fire RPG, but I can't say I've heard many positive views of how it plays. I'm considering Burning Wheel or Reign, as they seem to fit this setting well.
Don't lean on a system over actual roleplaying.
Lords and Nobles are just people - just like Adventurers. Their means and ways may be different, but nearly any system will let you do GoT style play. My games contain those elements as a norm and the system is usually irrelevant to me. You just need to know contextually what the starting point is for your players.
The GoT RPG from Green Ronin actually has a great little system to do a quick and dirty "House" setup. Where the PC's will establish all the domain particulars of their House and their respective place in it. But you certainly don't need it. Just talk it through with your players, and *know* what you want to do with the setting. Give them what they want, and create what *you* want around them. The conflicts that inevitably develop is where the game is.
I've run games like this with deep domain level play with Savage Worlds, D&D (1e, 2e, 3e, 5e), Pathfinder, Star Wars FFG/D6, Talislanta, WoD (Damnation Alley is particularly useful), MSH (You ever wonder why Mutants are "simply" wiped off the map? did you *ever* look at the Map? Yeah it's scary what lives in the Marvel U. America). The POINT being is system is irrelevant - it's simply about you knowing what you want, and letting your players play fearlessly in it. At least until you put the fear of YOU upon them.
Wasn't Birthright (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthright_(campaign_setting)) for AD&D 2E about realm management/politics? That was a line that escaped me, as at the time I was involved in other stuff.
yep! and it was pretty snazzy.
Quote from: tenbones on July 05, 2022, 11:00:52 AM
yep! and it was pretty snazzy.
I never caught Birthright but am wondering if I should now.
Worth a look if you're looking for possible cohesive ways of adding "domain" level play to your game.
The thing is figuring how granular you want it and to what scale you want players to engage with such things. Do you want your players being lords of a great House with mechanical responsibilities such as dealing with resources and defenses or do you want it done narratively with instruction on what is entailed on duties and responsibilities of holding such titles on lands of specific size? Or both?
Mass combat, siege rules etc. Need to be considered as well.
If nothing else Birthright is worth looking at if only for conversion to another system you prefer.
Quote from: Dropbear on July 06, 2022, 07:38:42 AM
I never caught Birthright but am wondering if I should now.
It's really not designed as a generic system. I'd recommend ACKS or the rules in the Classic D&D Companion Set for that.
Use Quixalted Extended. Only Heroic Mortals should be played. It has a subsystem for politics.
Reign should do what you are looking for. It's explicitly designed to model the power of nations, guilds, and free companies.
https://gregstolze.com/reign1/
The first thing that comes to mind is of course L5R. 4th edition so that it has almost no tainting by John Wick. Its downside is the fact that it's very setting-dependent (though with some elbow grease you could export it to something else).
Then ACKS. It's more about kingdom-building, but it has rules for intrigue shenanigans.
The FFG Star Wars and as a consequence, Genesys have a pretty robust system that can be used very well for what you want.
Worlds Without Number: the faction rules can be used to model more than just political settings (and are based on the original faction rules in Stars Without Number). And both sets of faction rules are included in the free versions of the WWN & SWN rules.
I'm going to just say that I have yet to find a game system that handles politics better than a basic NPC flowchart using a pen and a blank piece of paper.
Pick a party (individual or faction; a PC or PC faction is a good starting choice), put them in the center and put two things under it... what they have, and what they want. Then put more parties down around them with what they have and what they want.
Next draw lines between the parties based on whether there is something one has or wants that the other has or wants... including if they both have or want the same thing (and whether the thing they both want is mutually exclusive; i.e. both want stability is cooperative, both want the throne is mutually exclusive). Note this on the line between them.
Continue out as far as you wish. This is your web of alliances and opponents at the start of your campaign and how the PCs uncover what others have and/or want and how they work to achieve or thwart those (thus making new allies and enemies) is your campaign's roadmap.
All the dice rolling mechanics in the world won't do as good a job at producing realistic results as just applying common sense to your flow chart; when the PCs help one party get what they want, they'll be more well disposed to the PCs, when what the PCs are doing gets in the way of what they want, they'll work to end the PC's interference.
Maybe throw some random events; droughts, famines, pestilence, accidents, migrations, etc.; into the mix if you're wanting an extra dash of unpredictability. Roll up a few in advance if you as the GM want to include portents or link them into cause and effect (ex. a famine leads to a mass migration with minor incursions in the months prior to the main wave's arrival).
Regardless, this amount of setup is almost always less than that needed for actual "domain level" rules while producing results that from the players' perspectives are just as good and generally more immersive (there's no "rulership" check to be made, the PCs have to decide their course of action as their characters and the GM just judges results accordingly.
Quote from: swzl on July 04, 2022, 08:15:28 AM
ACKs is currently my favorite domain/political set of rules. Axiom #3 coves this from the empire level down to how profitable is your small peasant holding.
+1
There is a guy on the ACKS discord who's working at hammering ACKS into place to handle Birthright, and I wish him well in the endeavor, though it is one I would never seriously attempt myself ;D
Pendragon? I'm not super familiar with the system, but I know it has stats for things like honor, glory and prestige. You'd probably have to hack it quite a bit to change the tone from Arthurian Romance to grimdark political drama though.
I believe Reign is the first RPG to provide detailed mechanics for running organizations, so that's a pro.
L5R is all about playing members of the ruling samurai clans, and there have been expansions that allow for larger scope play to be mechanically supported.
This new supplement for 5E 'might' be of interest to you.
Claims to turn 5E into a 4X (Explore, Expand, Exploit, Exterminate) game. I've not bought it but it does look interesting.
Castles & Crowns
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/406426/Crowns--Castles?src=hottest_in_dmg&filters=45469