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Well, many HERO-philes passed on this and some of us are glad we did. Apparently it's a master's thesis, not a game. One of the gems from the Discord...

QuoteI'm about halfway through the book, and... wow.

I feel like I'm reading a transcript of a series of lectures on the Champions Now rulebook... which is in Professor Ron's brain and not actually available for review.  :smile:

There's a game in there, but the real important part, it seems, is a lot of pontificating on story gaming, micro-histories of published characters, thinly-veiled smacktalk for a number of existing story games, and so on.

My response was "I'm so surprised!!"

Now, I'm trying to figure out WHY in the seven hells of story gaming HERO games embarked on this project to begin with. Hiring the enemy of traditional RPG gaming to re-work your traditional RPG game seems... stupid?

Oh well. HERO 6th Edition is a fine game. HERO 5th Edition is also a solid game. GURPS 4th Edition is an amazing game. Won't be hard to avoid the Ron Edward's nonsense and find a fine generic system to work with. It's head-scratching watching owners piss their companies down the toilet on stupid mistakes.

Anyone else here pick up Champions Now via KS? Thoughts on the game?

Quote from: trechriron;1122428Well, many HERO-philes passed on this and some of us are glad we did. Apparently it's a master's thesis, not a game. One of the gems from the Discord...



My response was "I'm so surprised!!"

Now, I'm trying to figure out WHY in the seven hells of story gaming HERO games embarked on this project to begin with. Hiring the enemy of traditional RPG gaming to re-work your traditional RPG game seems... stupid?

Oh well. HERO 6th Edition is a fine game. HERO 5th Edition is also a solid game. GURPS 4th Edition is an amazing game. Won't be hard to avoid the Ron Edward's nonsense and find a fine generic system to work with. It's head-scratching watching owners piss their companies down the toilet on stupid mistakes.

Anyone else here pick up Champions Now via KS? Thoughts on the game?

Most likely Ron or someone else convinced them that is was a "great idea!" and would "garner them lots of sales!" How much did the KS actually make and how late is it now? Have print versions been sent yet? (Quick check shows it made only 24k before production and shipping. And is what looks like a year late.)

In other cases its usually much the same situation. Someone convinces the higher ups that putting the worst person possible on the project is a guarantee to profit! I suspect that alot of these cases in the last 10+ years are also instances of the outrage marketing fad. Marketing got the "brilliant" idea that the best way to sell your product was to piss off as many of your original customers and fans as possible. Their bitching attracts interest of non-fans and is essentially free advertising as it is believed more people will buy the product now out of curiosity than you are losing older customers. That and some older pissed off fans will get it anyhow sooner or later simply so they can play with new groups using the new hated system.

And so on ad absolute nausium.

Who knows why Hero gave this to Ron.

As for the game itself. Can any mere mortal read this eldritch tome without having their sanity irrevocably destroyed?

I backed the Kickstarter, and I'm pretty happy with it.

I like that it has a strong authorial voice. It's clear that Ron was passionate about the project and his excitement for it comes through. I like a game to be written with passion and a strong point of view, over a detached instruction manual vibe. There is something to the criticism on its presentation, though. I think a good 2 page character creation spread, or a stronger separation between the "nuts and bolts" and the more "discussion-like" parts would have made for an easier to reference rule book. Another thing that I like is that it is based on earlier, pre-Hero System Champions. Later Champions is often compared to GURPS in that it tries to encompass the simulation of many things and can serve as a "Universal" RPG. You're not gonna find a big comprehensive list of skills in Champions Now, because the game's not about that, and I like a game that chooses a focus and is clear about letting you know what it is and how it supports that. Ron does a pretty good job of explaining why he made the choices he did, and it's something I wish more people would do with their games. A lot of games just kind of dump themselves in your lap and expect you to understand why everything is the way it is. Sometimes people figure it out, and other times people bring their pre-existing assumptions from other games to a game and judge it based on those terms, missing what a game is trying to do differently, etc.

Anyways, yeah, mostly digging it.

Understand it has around 50 pages of "introduction". My copy of Champions 2E has a total of 68 pages, so the intro is almost the size of the original complete game.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1122468Understand it has around 50 pages of "introduction". My copy of Champions 2E has a total of 68 pages, so the intro is almost the size of the original complete game.

It's almost like they paid him by the word. Either that or he loves the sound of his voice so much and thinks his opinions are so important and everybody wants to know them.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1122468Understand it has around 50 pages of "introduction". My copy of Champions 2E has a total of 68 pages, so the intro is almost the size of the original complete game.

I played Champions 2nd edition every day for about a month after my brother got it for me, 1988..? The year the 49ers beat the Bengals in the Superbowl when they had Ickey Woods. I remember that game vividly because I was living in the Dayton area at the time and we had a Bengals day at school, not joking. Anyway, yeah, that game was succinct and coherent. We must have made fifty characters and ran them through all sorts of combats. By far my favorite version of the game.

I can't even imagine 50 pages of introduction for an RPG. That just seems ludicrous.

Maybe this was a brilliant plan to make the 5E to 6E change more tame by comparison? :)

Quote from: Toadmaster;1122468Understand it has around 50 pages of "introduction". My copy of Champions 2E has a total of 68 pages, so the intro is almost the size of the original complete game.

The 50 pages of introduction is a misleading statement given the book's dimensions.

I left pretty extensive thoughts going through half of the book (in comparison to the rando trechriron decided to quote) on his unofficial discord and although there is a lot of obtuse writing, Ron wrote in full support of the old (1e-3e) Champions mechanics with his own flourishes.

I've decided to reproduce some of them (the initial ones) here (with some formatting/editing) to temper (misinformed) opinions.

Chapter One
Diamonds in the Rough - Didn't care for this section at all.

This Game, Your Game - Rules about roles... are busy. Not sure how I feel about anyone at the table being able to flourish detail about circumstances and outcome. The same thing is also essentially said twice. Past that the text waxes poetically. I guess it's supposed to rev you up?

What is this Version? is a more transparent explanation/genealogy about what Champions Now is and, in a fashion, explains the why.

The What Now? is basically equivalent to the Same Page Tool. You're supposed to be playing in the "Now" (Earth+, w/ weight given to what you care about), conflicts should emerge from the heroes and villains, there should be a rich supporting cast (specifically not satellites), and outcomes should arise organically (the reader/GM is called out not to plan too much).

References section at the end of the chapter lists out a timeline of publisher events and superhero RPG publications in addition to having the footnotes

Conclusion - All in all, you are buying a very Ron book so far.

Chapter Two
The Basics starts off with the premise that the game is a negotiation between the various character sheets with no meta-level manipulations (fair) before getting into the monotonic gold of framing statements by exploring an example character (and its originating statements). You then go into the Situations (Complications), Characteristics, Skills, and Powers of said character seeded with some mechanical explanation/elaboration of said elements. The upshot is that the sheet is supposed to interpreted (with Situations being upfront I guess encouraging) as having narrative weight as opposed to being disparate mechanics which you then explain away as an afterthought. It then goes into Space and Time (detailing hexes, Speed, initiative Order) and Fighting (pretty self-explanatory). It then cares to mention things that are exceptions to these in Details and Oddballs (for example, how talking is a free action, the existence of Luck and Unluck, opportunity bonuses, etc.) That section caps off by basically saying that color precedes the mechanics and the mechanics simply represent what can be done reliably... this is the one of the most clearly stated intent statements I've come across in the book so far.

Chapter Three
Your Game is basically for the GM with the lead-in paragraphs practically telling the GM to not concern themselves ultimately with genre expectations outside the group. In other words, the table down the road playing muscle sharks on bikes. Fuck them. You can roll your cougar ninja housewife squad without giving them two shits.

Organizing Play starts off with telling the GM to get a number of people to play - in particularly those who share what the GM likes. Afterwards, it suggests what the GM should tell the players about the game mechanics right off the bat - that heroes are built from points (fair) and points are faithful to how heroes were initially introduced (sure). It then describes that a session of play is like a single issue but based on the buy-in, prep-work, and hero changes, a multi-session game experience is the most appreciative way of running this before warning the GM not to go planning ahead too much (an issue or two ahead is fine). This is fair advice.

Setting and Concept is practically the clarification of the What Now from Chapter One. What is the setting like? Real world with supers without much concern about the why. The idea is that why and the setting is made through play but you need a strong push to get you started. Thus come the framing statements which are RULES (not guides or suggestions) and the GM should have them when people get together. One should be about superpowers, the other about fictional style and problems to be tackled (not superpower-related, location inclusive). Key is that it is not a pitch and not to be discussed, debated, or explained (the fun is in how players interpret it). Optionally, the GM is to provide one or two example comics page with a distinctive art style and a super-naming convention that everyone uses. Four specific actual play examples then follow with a big list of further example framing statements following afterwards. The book at this point implores the GM to use whatever statements they want but to get on it. It then addresses the players with a number of bullet points to 1) not guess the GM's wants or plans but to do what they can to please themselves (this is probably why it's important to invite only players who have aligned interests), 2) not to get distracted by the origin of superpowers and how they work, and 3) not to engage in debates over what superheroes would or should do. Instead the following paragraph states that they should focus on who their hero, what they can do, and what is important to them. Bear in mind that the framing statements are still elementary but morality, content, and genre are up to the player to decide. Of course, in a roundabout fashion, the book alludes that those decisions might eliminate (or self-eliminate) a player so while it is smart for a GM to know who they're dealing with before the invite, I can't help but be annoyed that any potential red buttons weren't addressed in a clear adult manner. My thoughts on the bullet points... I think they're there to discourage signaling, to ensure the player owns what they submit, instead of trying to guess what the GM would like to see and then being a total tool when the GM calls their bluff.

Chapter Four is Special Effects.
The lead-in, Bare Essentials, flat out states that the mechanics need to be dressed up in fictional terms. For example, your Blast mechanic needs to be "mystical", "fire", etc. It's mandatory. This is sorta a no-brainer but being explicitly about it is helpful.
It sorta reminds me of a story shared with me by another GM where he was running Champions at a convention once. He had a player who was playing a character with a VPP and the player just described everything he was doing through mechanics. Is there something wrong with this? Hell ya! Imagine a Silver Surfer comic with this guy writing every one of Silver Surfer's actions in the same cold clinical mechanical wrapping. To continue the aside, yes, I get that people get their enjoyment from different aspects when it comes to RPGs but the mechanical wrapping has always been a part of the game and someone ignoring that is frankly ejecting the rest of the game they agreed to play to silo in only on which they enjoy which is frankly sizes them up for a booting just like any other singular focus. To put in other words, this is a material difference between the guy who describes he is using his Cosmic Blast and 12d6 blast, but I digress. Back to the book...

With Teeth elaborates on why setting the narrative elements are important. Here (but pretty much in all editions of Champions/Hero System), they have teeth. Basically the SFX sets the baseline and the mechanics serve as the precise presentation of what the SFX is trying to accomplish at that point in time. Together they determine what happens. A three box graph lays out how this all works. So in any situation a particular SFX could be advantaged or not. It then goes into further discussion before further elaborating how this could work out in play. It also discusses how the SFX could alter the baseline mechanic but also how it could replace it entirely. To not use examples in the book, I'll make my own. For starters, a water blast could leave an area wet (altering the baseline of a Blast) while shooting a jet of water into someone's diving apparatus could instead cause suffocation (effectively replacing the normal Blast with a potential continuous NND). This is smart deliberation and I can see why SFX rules were subordinated to the mechanics over time... mechanics are clear and easy, situations and adjudication is hard and messy. All in all, the section ends with the clear statement that SFX are supposed to do things. Of course, it's exhaustive to go into what each and every special effect ought to do but I think this section puts people on the right path in changing mentalities.

And if that didn't the next section, At The Table, should. It starts by reminding that SFX as teeth is a double-edged sword and though you can play without ever applying the teeth (in either direction), it loosens up play if you do (which can be a good thing). It then goes into how to do this in practice by offering a recommended sequence of how to build up to this (by first describing the SFX of powers all the time often and early and then introducing the teeth once the default uses are well established) and establishing a tempo of when they kick in. The advice is sound but it requires work and it's easy to forget about using it in practice (especially if you have some fairly dull or mostly non-applicable SFX in play). One idea I have is simply tying the teeth to the result of the success roll as a reminder that they are there in addition to the advice. Of course, the book warns about not using the teeth too much but I can't help by think that this monotonic gold is going to be lost in "how we usually do things" in any other way.

The next section, Modifiers, elaborates on what Advantages and Limitations mean alongside this interpretation. They are not meant to enable what your SFX can do but instead represent nuances of your SFX that you want to see all the time. Astounding! It's like this chapter is where all of the smart ideas decided to root. It then elaborates using Iron Man as an example of how these Modifiers should be treated in play. It's fairly sensible but the real key advice is restated at the section's end - that you should also use Modifiers if you want them to cause consequences consistently in play. Otherwise, the teeth should suffice (if you can keep them in mind).

The next section, Story Power, closes the chapter (before References) by summarizing the premises of the previous sections and fully copping that it is up to the group to take the conceits where they are comfortable with (which is fine). It also adds that SFX are there to recognize the potential of the imagined powers and not there to manipulate the situation by fiat with the upshot being to focus on what is obvious and to avoid inventing (BS) for an advantage.
Fair advice though I can imagine some clowns skipping/forgetting about this entirely.

Chapter 5 is Hero Making.
Skipping ahead, yes, this is character generation chapter but it is tied heavily with Chapter 6 (Structural Mechanics) of the mechanics characters are comprised of. For simplicity's sake, I will focus solely on this chapter. Hero Making leads in with by speaking to the player and comforting them by saying that the process is a lot less intense than it looks (which can be true). As a concession, it even says that the player has wiggle room to adjust after actual play (I'll look out for how this works because IME there are certain players who will adjust all the damn time if you let them).

Three Corners is the first section after the lead-in. It describes what is essentially the triangle of character foundations - the person, the problems, and the powers - and specify how to go about developing them and more importantly not to dive deep into mechanics just yet. Sound advice. Especially the latter part. With that out of the way, it uses Ruby Ray as an example of how to do the Three Corners and it's a solid example too but... if you look at Ruby Ray's second triangle (in the book), you'll note that there is an inner triangle which is actually the elaboration on how the three subjects come together. It would have been nice if there was more precise discussion on that but seeing it in the physical is good nonetheless. The section closes off with a sub-section called Unconventional Notions. It's fun and VERY non-traditional advice for Champions (and perhaps superhero in general) games. To wit, originality, origin stories, superhero archetypes, and even naming conventions are to be not dogmatically pursued which makes sense in the context of the examples given. One callout which may ruffle some feather is that this is NOT a tactical game so having a perfect allotment between offense, defense, movement, and utility is to be avoided and heck even making oneself invulnerable is discouraged. This is not a game where lengthy dust-ups between balanced forces are the point but that getting knocked out sometimes is. I sympathize with that notion as most Champions fights are barely memorable but those that were anything but balanced or even about the fight. Let's see, from my own experience, almost all good confrontations I recall were about the talky bits (talking down well-intention-ed extremists into stopping their destructive plans or hope-speeching a mind-controlled super into breaking said control), the heroes doing something terrible/extreme (the former happens more than you think when the latter would be more ideal), or the heroes are on the ropes (which lead them to using their smarts instead of their firepower). I'm fairly certain that piece of advice will be ignored but I can imagine applying that advice alone would shake up (piss off) a lot of Champions tables. The UN section caps off with the outlier heroes and states as long as blanks/deficient in one corner are covered in the supporting cast, all is good though I imagine you can identify a clown by their refusal to even make up the deficient there.

Continue?

Quote from: Brad;1122471I played Champions 2nd edition every day for about a month after my brother got it for me, 1988..? The year the 49ers beat the Bengals in the Superbowl when they had Ickey Woods. I remember that game vividly because I was living in the Dayton area at the time and we had a Bengals day at school, not joking. Anyway, yeah, that game was succinct and coherent. We must have made fifty characters and ran them through all sorts of combats. By far my favorite version of the game.

I can't even imagine 50 pages of introduction for an RPG. That just seems ludicrous.

Champions was one of my favorite games in 85-86 when I was stationed in Korea. We played at least once a week in the rec room of Headquarters, Headquarters Company, Eighth United States Army, Yongsan (Seoul), Korea. OOOooh Raaaah!

I really am Jones'n for a fistful of d6's!

Quote from: DeadUematsu;1122475...
Chapter Two
The Basics: starts off with the premise that the game is a negotiation between the various character sheets with no meta-level manipulations (fair) before getting into the monotonic gold of framing statements by exploring an example character (and its originating statements). ...

What. The. Fuck.

It's funny. When the story gamers talk about RPGs it's like two completely different languages. It's like trying to parse out the language in that Star Trek Next Generation episode. I see the words. I read them. I read them again. I just don't get it.

In an attempt to understand, can @DeadUematsu or @NeonAce give us a mock-play example? Maybe something like...

1. The GM sets the scene describing the deadliness of the robot ninjas shooting energy shurikens and destroying cars, buildings and passerby.
2. The GM then starts counting down from highest dex to lowest, in Speed order. Basket Man goes first with Speed 5, DEX 20 (top of segment 0, turn 0).
3. He drops a 12d6 Blast of Sonic Energy (area of effect 5m radius) in the midst of the robo-ninjas hoping to stun a few and lessen the carnage.
4. He rolls his attack vs. a Defensive Combat Value (DCV) of 3 to hit the hex in the middle of 'em.
5. Adding 11 to his Offensive Combat Value of 7, he rolls 3d6 and subtracts the result. Scoring a 10 on the roll, Basket Man hits a DCV of 8, more than enough to place the Blast right on point!
6. Rolling normal damage, Blast man rolls a 6,6,6,5,5,4,4,4,4,3,2,2! A walloping 51 Stun and 15 Body!!
7. The bad bots have a Physical Defense of 6 plus a resistant Physical Defense of 10. Subtracting 16 from 51 nets 35 stun while the rPD nets 5 Body. Since 35 is way over the 16 CON of the ninja-bots, they are all stunned! Worse, they are left with a paltry 5 Stun before their first move!
8. Holy splat-bots Basket Man you just stunned all 9 of the Automaton Assassins!
9. Knowing the robotic ruffians are likely not down for the count, The Meringue Madam winds up her "Clockwork Mayhem", a Drain CON designed to mess up automatons and their ilk...

How do you play Champions Now?

Sounds alot like a bunch of rules to force free-form on the fly play.

Quote from: trechriron;1122488How do you play Champions Now?

Ultimately, it's just early Champions with some tweaks. There are no necessary "Story Game" rules, unless you consider some rules in early Champions to be such. Some of those tweaks are things like... it's more costly to make a power cost no Endurance, the number of segments on the speed chart has been reduced, the way some attributes are bought and expressed has been changed slightly, the way Stun & Endurance are calculated has been simplified, power frameworks and the cost of powers themselves has been slightly fiddled with.

Most of the "Ron" bits are him geeking out about certain styles of play, or explaining/trying to bring out the stuff he thought was really cool about early Champions. Like, with the Endurance change, he thinks the game is more tactically interesting and the pressure entertainingly amped up when people have to catch their breath and pick their shots and cover for each other, instead of untiring machines blasting each other. A lot of talk kind of going beyond the rules into chatting about how those rules can be used to evoke comic book superhero vibes.

So, it's a slightly tweaked version of early Champions with a lot of commentary by a guy who loved early Champions and is going to passionately tell you all about what he thinks is cool about it and why, and give his advice about how he thinks you can bring some of that grooviness out. If you don't want to hear that, it may not be the Champions for you, but at least there are, like, 6+ other editions to choose from.

Quote from: trechriron;1122488It's funny. When the story gamers talk about RPGs it's like two completely different languages. It's like trying to parse out the language in that Star Trek Next Generation episode. I see the words. I read them. I read them again. I just don't get it.

While some of Ron Edwards text in Champions Now does sound awfully pretentious I also listened to a bunch of podcasts from him on RuneQuest 2. They were very interesting and sounded mostly like normal old school gamer speak. Yea, maybe he referenced a few story gamish things, but he really was playing a pretty old school game, or talking about old school features.

Fair enough. I may check it out to see for myself.

Quote from: trechriron;1122428Well, many HERO-philes passed on this and some of us are glad we did. Apparently it's a master's thesis, not a game. One of the gems from the Discord...



My response was "I'm so surprised!!"

Now, I'm trying to figure out WHY in the seven hells of story gaming HERO games embarked on this project to begin with. Hiring the enemy of traditional RPG gaming to re-work your traditional RPG game seems... stupid?

Yup. Profoundly stupid. But people in the RPG "industry" seem determined to frequently do very stupid things.

A friend let me look at the PDF of this. And I took a very long look at it. Analyzing pretty much every part as I went along.

It's an ode to the days of 3rd edition Champions. When the game was much simpler. Which has pros and cons to it. But it has enough classic Champions DNA for me to consider this firmly in the RPG category.

I make no bones about saying so. This is a major departure from the 6th Edition methodology. And as such, it's going to get some serious backlash from the grognard set. The people who hated Fuzion are certain to hate Champions Now for many of the same reasons. The prime of it being? Too much change.

But honestly? I'm going to buy a physical version of Champions Now. I want to try it out, kick its tires, and give it some serious stress testing. So yeah. I'm going to give it a chance. And play it in the wild.

Is this how the "Lord of SJWs" invades rpgs?

I won't buy or even read it, because I know it's SJW filth: I've never needed a game designer to tell me how exactly to play or run his/her game: the best wrote that I can play/run it as I like --- I went from there.

Edwards is a goof and deserves as much attention as a tampon commercial.

Hero System 6th edition isn't selling. Champions Now is a chance to actually make products that sell. That's the bottom line.

Like or hate Edwards. He's bringing a new expression to a decades-old property.

Still. I expect the grognard set to treat Champions Now the same they did Fuzion. Because they hate any kind of change and departure from what they think is Hero System orthodoxy.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1123313Hero System 6th edition isn't selling. Champions Now is a chance to actually make products that sell. That's the bottom line.

Like or hate Edwards. He's bringing a new expression to a decades-old property.

Still. I expect the grognard set to treat Champions Now the same they did Fuzion. Because they hate any kind of change and departure from what they think is Hero System orthodoxy.

While I have heard a few good things about 6th edition, what I have heard hasn't compelled me to go beyond 5th Edition Revised. The 5th Edition Revised book includes everything you need really to run any kind of game. Yes, they walked into a 'competing with your previous version' situation but you can't just throw your arms up and not respond to it. Champions Now doesn't look like it was the right product to do that. It simply looks like an opportunity that just walked in the door one day, and someone said 'it can't hurt, go ahead.'

When I look at 6th edition, I see a lot of 'core books' that individually cost more but do not provide compelling value. Also, I don't see a company actively engaged in changing their practices to be successful.

Maybe I would look at a 6th Edition Revised, but I think they'd do better in shipping a 7th Edition single volume, well designed and also, with a really, really well engineered PDF version designed for mobile devices, including printing from mobile devices. Throw in a free and flexible character designer / portfolio which has compelling upsells.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1123313Hero System 6th edition isn't selling. Champions Now is a chance to actually make products that sell. That's the bottom line.

Like or hate Edwards. He's bringing a new expression to a decades-old property.

Still. I expect the grognard set to treat Champions Now the same they did Fuzion. Because they hate any kind of change and departure from what they think is Hero System orthodoxy.

So are the grognards that ruined HERO the ones who like 6th ed, don't like 6th ed, stayed with 4th ed (or 3rd ed for that matter), I get so confused.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1123686So are the grognards that ruined HERO the ones who like 6th ed, don't like 6th ed, stayed with 4th ed (or 3rd ed for that matter), I get so confused.

6th edition and prior. The Hero System hasn't had a significant change since 4th edition. All of the editions that came after was just more of the same. Which ran off the more mainstream fans,

The grognards are the ones who hated Fuzion and whined nonstop to get their way. Until the original owners finally gave up and sold the company to be done with it.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;11236986th edition and prior. The Hero System hasn't had a significant change since 4th edition. All of the editions that came after was just more of the same. Which ran off the more mainstream fans, The grognards are the ones who hated Fuzion and whined nonstop to get their way. Until the original owners finally gave up and sold the company to be done with it.

Maybe the issue wasn't why they didn't want to move to Fuzion but why would they? Normally, new versions compete with old versions, and systems compete with each other.

I haven't played the Fusion stuff (though I believe I played a precursor at some point). Nothing really leaps out to me as to why I would consider replacing Hero with it. Giving the base rules away seems to be a great idea, but beyond that, why?

I run into a similar problem in trying to sell tech products into a mature market space, but the trick always comes down to the niche you do really well and the customers that are convinced they need whatever very specific feature you offer. It isn't whining really, but selling advantages vs inertia.  Other than free, Fuzion doesn't seem to be really selling me. What should have convinced people to switch?

Quote from: Lynn;1123727Maybe the issue wasn't why they didn't want to move to Fuzion but why would they? Normally, new versions compete with old versions, and systems compete with each other.

Fuzion was both a research project and a series of really bad mistakes. The biggest mistake was in rushing it out the door before it was even finished. Which made its reception a disaster. But the research project? Still has a good foundation. I should know. I submitted the info that was used for the basis of Fuzion to Steve Peterson directly in the first place.

They did not finish the necessary research. They only had the beginning of it. And used that to rush several incomplete products out the door. Which naturally wasn't going to succeed. Because the job wasn't done in the first place.

The next phase of that information I gave was to be a complete strip-down and examination of the Hero System to its basic core elements. And then to use the information gained in analysis to make a more streamlined, user-friendly product. There was a whole lot left to be done before an actual workable product was ready for print.

But the grognards? They discouraged even trying. Loudly. They wanted no change at all.

And what has that grognard whining resulted in? Everybody else driven off. The grognards happily have their books. They don't need to buy and won't buy new ones unless they have to. Which, as customers for any business, makes them less than useless.

The Hero System isn't selling. And the company can't survive with things in that state. They have to appeal to a new audience, or face extinction.

Champions Now is a new start. A definite departure from the previous methodology. And it is a brave and bold move. Something needed every much now as in the days of Fuzion. Will it work? I don't know. I'm not a fortune teller. But at least they are still trying!

QuoteI haven't played the Fusion stuff (though I believe I played a precursor at some point). Nothing really leaps out to me as to why I would consider replacing Hero with it. Giving the base rules away seems to be a great idea, but beyond that, why?

The reason for it replacing Hero? Simple. Something more userfriendly. Something still built in the spirit of the Hero System. And one that still delivered on the original premises. But got rid of all of negatives that had built up. Simple product evolution.

QuoteI run into a similar problem in trying to sell tech products into a mature market space, but the trick always comes down to the niche you do really well and the customers that are convinced they need whatever very specific feature you offer. It isn't whining really, but selling advantages vs inertia.  Other than free, Fuzion doesn't seem to be really selling me. What should have convinced people to switch?

A complete product. For one. One that actually delivered on all of the Hero System's promises. Without the unnecessarily complicated bits. But as I said above. Fuzion wasn't that because it was an incomplete effort. It didn't succeed because it couldn't. It wasn't allowed to even come close because the toxic part of the fanbase that has now succeeded in driving everybody else away but themselves.

Champions Now is a chance at a new start. A chance at gaining a new audience. If the company can finally be brave enough to show the grognards the door. And never look back.

Yes and we all know how great and good totally changing a games system. :rolleyes:

Champions Now isn't a big change from Champions 3E but it's sorta a backpedal to be fair.

Quote from: Omega;1123938Yes and we all know how great and good totally changing a games system. :rolleyes:

The same can be said of not changing an rpg either. Hero Games is on life support. With the fan base being in complete denial about the situation while expecting a complete and miraculous turn around any day now...any day. Then bemoan that they cannot find anyone to play or run the game.

Change can harm an rpg yet if the rpg and company that produces it is dying a slow death might as well try to salvage it.

Time to buy some GURPS books

- Ed C.

I liked the original Champions quite well, though we abandoned it when MSH came out.

One of the worst gaming sessions I've ever had in my life was playing Champions 4th edition with some grognards. Humorless, system obsessed, and they were engineers so delighted in all the number crunching.

Quote from: trechriron;1122428Now, I'm trying to figure out WHY in the seven hells of story gaming HERO games embarked on this project to begin with. Hiring the enemy of traditional RPG gaming to re-work your traditional RPG game seems... stupid?

Oh well. HERO 6th Edition is a fine game. HERO 5th Edition is also a solid game. GURPS 4th Edition is an amazing game. Won't be hard to avoid the Ron Edward's nonsense and find a fine generic system to work with. It's head-scratching watching owners piss their companies down the toilet on stupid mistakes.

Ron Edwards. The name sounds familiar. Oh, no. It's that Adept Play guy on YouTube.

Quote from: thomden;1123986I liked the original Champions quite well, though we abandoned it when MSH came out.

With my old gaming group it was MSH first then Champions

Quote from: thomden;1123986One of the worst gaming sessions I've ever had in my life was playing Champions 4th edition with some grognards. Humorless, system obsessed, and they were engineers so delighted in all the number crunching.

To be fair that can happen with any rpg. I was unlucky enough to come across and play with some 3.5 and Pathfinder player more interested in making the best powerful character then complaining when the game has scenes without combat because they dump stated Charisma and took no social skills. While not blaming themselves for poor character creation and development instead blaming the DM and players.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1123765The reason for it replacing Hero? Simple. Something more userfriendly. Something still built in the spirit of the Hero System. And one that still delivered on the original premises. But got rid of all of negatives that had built up. Simple product evolution.

I can see how that would be a tall order. As I said previously, I don't really find Hero 5th Edition not user friendly, and the revised book is such a wonderfully complete kit. But it is still a massive tome.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1123765A complete product. For one. One that actually delivered on all of the Hero System's promises. Without the unnecessarily complicated bits. But as I said above. Fuzion wasn't that because it was an incomplete effort. It didn't succeed because it couldn't. It wasn't allowed to even come close because the toxic part of the fanbase that has now succeeded in driving everybody else away but themselves.

That's interesting - thanks for the background info!

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1123765Champions Now is a chance at a new start. A chance at gaining a new audience. If the company can finally be brave enough to show the grognards the door. And never look back.

Grognards or not, I just don't see it changing their situation that much. They seem to be living on fumes and producing almost nothing. Hero Games has gone the route of trying to sell everything they've ever made as PDFs in a way that jumbles both system and content. I think that's a model that will only work for a few, select publishers (resellers like DrivethruRPG being different beasts).

Quote from: Lynn;1124008I can see how that would be a tall order. As I said previously, I don't really find Hero 5th Edition not user friendly, and the revised book is such a wonderfully complete kit. But it is still a massive tome.

The original owners didn't want anything close to that massive tome. This is why they originally rejected the 5th Edition manuscript Steve Long submitted, They wanted something relatively compact and user-friendly. And they got a significant amount of feedback indicating that the size of the 4th Edition rulebook was a bridge too far.

QuoteGrognards or not, I just don't see it changing their situation that much. They seem to be living on fumes and producing almost nothing. Hero Games has gone the route of trying to sell everything they've ever made as PDFs in a way that jumbles both system and content. I think that's a model that will only work for a few, select publishers (resellers like DrivethruRPG being different beasts).

And it's not working for them. Champions Now is the one last shot in the dark for them. But even it may be too late. Because games have sprung up to fill the role Hero once had a lock on. It's going to have to be something really special to breathe life back into the property.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1124054The original owners didn't want anything close to that massive tome. This is why they originally rejected the 5th Edition manuscript Steve Long submitted, They wanted something relatively compact and user-friendly. And they got a significant amount of feedback indicating that the size of the 4th Edition rulebook was a bridge too far. Champions Now is the one last shot in the dark for them. But even it may be too late. Because games have sprung up to fill the role Hero once had a lock on. It's going to have to be something really special to breathe life back into the property.

I can see the attraction. I bought the 1st edition at one of the early Dundracons in '81 I think and it was pretty much overshadowing everything else at the show. It packed a lot of fun into a svelte booklet.

Another issue with Hero Games is their stupidly stubborn insistence on pleasing the HS grognards and no one else. Already with 5E many were turned away from the massive tome so instead of changing that they doubled down with two similarly sized tomes with 6E. As soon as I saw that it was like watching  a train crash in action. With no major changes at least nothing to draw in fans who left for other simpler systems. Both SJGames and Hero Games instead of admitting to the flaws of their respective rpgs decided that somehow making a better looking book with full color art was what the fanbase only wanted. Many of us wanted better production values and art yet also making the system easier. In the case of HG making the core out of print and taking years to put it on Drivethurpg pretty much killed any momentum they had with the new edition. No new releases, older 6e books went out of print and only available through PDF , Hero 6E vol 1 being out of print and Vol 2 in print again for years. To me it was lesson on how not to run a business.

Not to mention this weird idea from the fanbase that Hero Games would not be re-releasing previous 5E sourcebooks. From what i have seen over the years in the hobby. almost every rpg when a new edition is released does the same. Why would anyone think that HG would be different. Especially that they never made such a claim. After all let's release a new edition of the Hero System yet not release say a new Champions or Viper sourcebook. If it is true what is being said about the previous owners and not wanting the massive tome going forward I don't blame them as they probably saw the writing on the wall and wisely sold their IP.

I think it's only fair to note that the 5E that was published was, I believe, Long's rejected manuscript, and it was the foundation of a line that was successful for several years. It may not have had the longevity a properly implemented Fuzion would have had--the company was in trouble even before 6E slowed down production and drove a wedge into the fanbase--but it wasn't self-evidently a doomed endeavor from the beginning.

That said, I liked 5E more for the source material, and am sympathetic to the Fuzion goals of a system with most of Hero's core concepts and flexibility but without so much overhead. I especially like the concepts of Dials and Switches, to be able to tweak a core rules system to reflect a genre or milieu. What are the best Fuzion products or resources  out there for someone who'd be willing to hack and tweak something together that might have reached its potential, even if only for hobbyist tinkering or personal use?

That's the thing. Fuzion reached its potential because of its community of fans. Who made a whole host of plug-ins for it. Some of them have become products on their own that you can buy as universal plug-ins at Precis Intermedia. Pay close attention to the Atomik line. They were originally well regarded Fuzion plug-ins.

Also. Hero Games eventually put out a truly official superpowers plug-in that wasn't derived from the Hero System. (Which I happen to have an editorial credit for.) It was reasonably popular during the Cybergames era. And it was simply free on their website.

Where Fuzion was a failed effort on the part of the companies that produced it. It was the fans who made it a viable and vibrant product. One that went on to produce products for several small independent companies. Like Dilly Green Beans Games.

So no. Fuzion wasn't the bastard child of Hero Games. It was truly a child of its community. One that went on to inspire many of the games in popularity today.

You wouldn't see Savage Worlds at all without Fuzion. You wouldn't have seen the Action! System without Fuzion. You wouldn't see a lot of games out there. And I believe Fuzion gets an unfair rap from the Hero System grognards. While they continually try to trowel over the positive legacy Fuzion brought to the gaming community.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1124244That's the thing. Fuzion reached its potential because of its community of fans. Who made a whole host of plug-ins for it. Some of them have become products on their own that you can buy as universal plug-ins at Precis Intermedia. Pay close attention to the Atomik line. They were originally well regarded Fuzion plug-ins.  

   So I've heard; thanks for the confirmation.

QuoteYou wouldn't see Savage Worlds at all without Fuzion. You wouldn't have seen the Action! System without Fuzion. You wouldn't see a lot of games out there.

I'm aware of the Fuzion -> Action! lineage, but where does Savage Worlds fit in? The only link I was aware of was Sean Patrick Fannon.

QuoteAnd I believe Fuzion gets an unfair rap from the Hero System grognards. While they continually try to trowel over the positive legacy Fuzion brought to the gaming community.

  Perhaps a distinction needs to be made between Fuzion as a system, and Champions: The New Millennium as a product, the latter of which was apparently both poorly executed and launched at almost exactly the wrong time? Because I was on the Champions mailing list just before it came out, and while I don't recall the details of the reaction, I do know that there was a lot of anticipation for a 'proper' Champions 5E that was not met by C:tNM?

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1124248I'm aware of the Fuzion -> Action! lineage, but where does Savage Worlds fit in? The only link I was aware of was Sean Patrick Fannon.

Savage Worlds was another part of the wave of games that arose as a reaction to Fuzion. Yes, Sean Fannon was a part of it. But it had roots that went further back into the Fuzion community.

QuotePerhaps a distinction needs to be made between Fuzion as a system, and Champions: The New Millennium as a product, the latter of which was apparently both poorly executed and launched at almost exactly the wrong time? Because I was on the Champions mailing list just before it came out, and while I don't recall the details of the reaction, I do know that there was a lot of anticipation for a 'proper' Champions 5E that was not met by C:tNM?

I was a member of that mailing list too. But I was also a member of the Fuzion mailing list. So I got to see a lot of broader community action and reaction.

Champions: New Millenium was a bad product because it tried to stuff the Hero System into the Fuzion wrapper. When Fuzion needed to establish an identity of its own. Separate from the Hero System way of doing things. And when that happened, you got products like Dilly Green Beans Games Guardian Universe RPG. That was just a better approach and presentation all around.

Yes, Champions: New Millenium was outdone in nearly every way by a tiny publisher that took the necessary time to let Fuzion be Fuzion.

The Hero System Grognards want to wipe all memory of Fuzion and the success it had from history. They refuse to see the good that came about because of Fuzion's existance. And frankly, I just believe it is pure bitterness.

I don't want Champions Now, I want Fuzion Now.

A Fuzion revival. But nothing by Edwards, and not Action or Dilly Green Beans, either. A new edition of the system. When was the last version, 1998?

Quote from: Aglondir;1124260I don't want Champions Now, I want Fuzion Now.

A Fuzion revival. But nothing by Edwards, and not Action or Dilly Green Beans, either. A new edition of the system. When was the last version, 1998?

Honestly? That's an interesting prospect. The last Fuzion game I know of that was published was Cyberpunk 3rd edition. That would be the most current iteration of the Fuzion rules.

The core Fuzion book is still being sold by R. Talsorian Games. And honestly? I've wanted to pick up a copy just for the memories. It's not expensive.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1124268Honestly? That's an interesting prospect. The last Fuzion game I know of that was published was Cyberpunk 3rd edition. That would be the most current iteration of the Fuzion rules.

What changes did they make to Fuzion in CP v3?

Quote from: Aglondir;1124291What changes did they make to Fuzion in CP v3?

I'm not sure. I don't own a copy. I just know that was the last published Fuzion game.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1124054...
And it's not working for them. Champions Now is the one last shot in the dark for them. But even it may be too late. Because games have sprung up to fill the role Hero once had a lock on. It's going to have to be something really special to breathe life back into the property.

In Bold is the reality some have obviously been unwilling to accept.

Do these new RPG systems do the same thing/are as "modular" as Hero/Champions? No.

But what they don't get is: That it doesn't matter!

Close enough is good enough in 99 out of 100 cases. Hell, D&D has more or less maintained its market leader status on the "good enough" principle.

Underestimating the power of close/good enough has been the downfall of many a more complex RPG vs. its upstart competitors...

Quote from: sureshot;1124080Another issue with Hero Games is their stupidly stubborn insistence on pleasing the HS grognards and no one else. ...

Well, if HG is now being run by 'grognards' itself...

Quote from: sureshot;1124080Both SJGames and Hero Games instead of admitting to the flaws of their respective rpgs decided that somehow making a better looking book with full color art was what the fanbase only wanted. Many of us wanted better production values and art yet also making the system easier. ....

Part of the problem is that both SJG and Hero games are run by people who see nothing wrong with their respective game systems as they are.

You can see this effect with the new edition of runequest. Usable by RQ fans who have been running the system for decades. But the rulebook is a confused mess to anyone coming in to it cold.

Of course it is still tied to Gorlantha, so it will forever be a niche rpg no matter what else they do.

Quote from: Jaeger;1124393Well, if HG is now being run by 'grognards' itself...

I am not too sure about that myself. Yet even if the company is at least try to understand the reality of the situation HG and the Hero System finds itself in. The first on life support the second a generic system not many in the hobby want to play anymore or at least not enough numbers for the current version to be profitable imo. I cannot feel and sympathy for the current owners or the fans that want nothing to change at the state of both.

Quote from: Jaeger;1124393Part of the problem is that both SJG and Hero games are run by people who see nothing wrong with their respective game systems as they are.

You can see this effect with the new edition of runequest. Usable by RQ fans who have been running the system for decades. But the rulebook is a confused mess to anyone coming in to it cold.

Of course it is still tied to Gorlantha, so it will forever be a niche rpg no matter what else they do.

That is another company  and fnabase like Hero Games who expect a miraculous turnaround of their rpg while wanting nothing to change. At this point it's one thing not to change the rules it's another for the book to still be poorly organized. It's like Rifts Ultimate Edition great for someone like myself or another familiar to Palladium rpgs a mess to those wanting to learn the rules and getting into the hobby. Hey another example is the DArk Eye every couple of yeara a new edition trys to gain market share in North america and goes nowhere because again every edition aimed only at the Grognards and those wanting nothing to change. Which makes the rpg hardly make a dent in the sales at least in North America. Even before the D20 system came out I found it just complexity for the sake of complexity.

The funny thing is then on Facebook groups for Rifts someone posts a topic complaining that no stores want to carry PB products in his area, gets told why then gets angry. At those daring to point out that changes needs to made to the rules and how Kevin runs his business. While once again making sure to tell everyone nothing needs to change. It's almost the same with every similar thread. " Why can't find a store  who carries or players to run Rifts"

I managed the find the Fuzion Plug-In that I had edited. That had been put up on the Hero Games Website in 1998.

Hero Games was having problems with their hosting. And it was not properly saved at archive.org. But I managed to find a copy of it in PDF that had been saved to a geocities account. And got a copy of it.

Since it was my first published work. I wanted it for sentimental reasons.

Quote from: Jaeger;1124393In Bold is the reality some have obviously been unwilling to accept.

Do these new RPG systems do the same thing/are as "modular" as Hero/Champions? No.

But what they don't get is: That it doesn't matter!

Close enough is good enough in 99 out of 100 cases. Hell, D&D has more or less maintained its market leader status on the "good enough" principle.

Underestimating the power of close/good enough has been the downfall of many a more complex RPG vs. its upstart competitors...

Agreed and seconded.

For example for many tables imo Mutants and Masterminds has pretty much replaced Champions as their superhero rpg of choice. Champions has a much more fleshed out background yet many are willing to overlook that for M&M being less crunchy and rules complex. I personally don't like M&M damage save beyond that and Champions mopre extensive background I just cannot see myself getting back into Champions or many a Hero System campaign. too much work for little gain both as a player and GM. Even on RollD2o one cannot find new games (Gurps is better in that regard).

Again not surprised when a company targets a very small segment of their fans and refuses to try anything new to get gamers into the Hero System.

Even with champions now why not do an updated 4E as opposed to 3E. With 4E which imo seemed and seems to be more popular then 3E by a long shot why not do a Champions Now version of 4E by someone else. It just seems kike they tried for the nostalgia factor on edition that they seemed to think was really popular. Then again it's Hero games who take every opportunity to miss an opportunity.

The problem with all of the major Fuzion power plug-ins was this: The authors tried to re-engineer the Hero System into Fuzion. Rather than making a power system that was original to Fuzion itself.

The problem with bringing Hero System methodology to Fuzion was: That they brought all of the same bad design issues over with it. All the same old inconsistencies. Which sort of defeated the point of designing a new game system in the first place.

Someone earlier in the thread proposed above a new edition of Fuzion. And honestly? That's something I don't oppose. But I believe that it would need to be approached without outside influences. That it would need to have systems that are original designs. And consistent within Fuzion itself. Meaning that all of the Hero System specific artifacts would need to be abandoned.

Can Fuzion be saved and upgraded? Yes. I truly believe it can be.

Back when I originally proposed the notes that led to the birth of Fuzion. I was operating from a very particular standpoint and view. That the Hero System had run its course. That there needed to be a successor. A new beginning. And I still believe that.

What we got with the first edition of Champions: New Millenium didn't go far enough to differentiate itself. And Champions: New Millenium 2nd Edition took a further step back from that needed development.

Bemusingly, or not so bemusingly. I unknowingly picked up 2 of his books in a discount pack.

One is Slay With Me. Which is near pure storytelling. Dice rolling seems an afterthought. And actually forget what the other one was.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1126741The problem with bringing Hero System methodology to Fuzion was: That they brought all of the same bad design issues over with it. All the same old inconsistencies. Which sort of defeated the point of designing a new game system in the first place.

Someone earlier in the thread proposed above a new edition of Fuzion. And honestly? That's something I don't oppose. But I believe that it would need to be approached without outside influences. That it would need to have systems that are original designs. And consistent within Fuzion itself. Meaning that all of the Hero System specific artifacts would need to be abandoned.

Can Fuzion be saved and upgraded? Yes. I truly believe it can be.

Back when I originally proposed the notes that led to the birth of Fuzion. I was operating from a very particular standpoint and view. That the Hero System had run its course. That there needed to be a successor. A new beginning. And I still believe that.

   This does raise the question of 'what do you need the Hero System or Hero Games for, especially with Fuzion under an open license?' You may be right about the commercial viability or design limits of the Hero System, but if you think starting over is necessary, I don't see how leaving the old stuff to the dwindling satisfied fanbase is a problem.

IME, largely no one wants to run Hero System and those who do find the meager player base unwilling to play anything inconvenient (e.g. having standards, not being at exactly the right time for their schedule, not the genre they want, etc.). I have largely given up advertising my HS game and the other HS GM I frequently chat with couldn't find anyone for his comedic super villain game. Combined with the fact that I can literally have my choice of M&M players even with 3E on the doldrums, it's really hard to be supportive of anything Hero System related nowadays.

I sometimes reference Champions/Hero System (5e hard copy or Champions Complete PDF--6e, I believe) when researching effects for my own system, but I've never played the game and I don't have an interest on new manuals for most of the reasons mentioned by many here (and fact that the books I already own cover my purposes for the game). I find the system to be more complicated than it needs to be for what it tries to do and I don't really like the core system (stats, task resolution, phased combat rules, etc), beyond the effects component.

I also find the manuals wordy and hard to follow (though, I've adapted over the years), with excessive use of hard to remember acronyms for stats and abilities that use multi-word phrases like "Offensive+Combat+Value" (OCV) or "Defensive+Combat+Value" (DCV) when single words will do (Combat or Defense). Now I have to remember literally dozens of acronyms, like I'm on the freaking military cuz the game designers can't come up with ability names that are less than 3+ words long, yet can't be bothered to write those names in full for 90% of the manual, even when dealing with obscure Power Modifiers, "adders" or whatever they're called.

If I wanted to play an existing effect-based system I would just go with Mutants & Masterminds (which is already close to my ideal, except for some stuff I would've done differently or don't like about d20 System's 3e) or a modified version of the old Marvel Super Heroes (FASERIP) RPG to allow for random damage.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1126741Someone earlier in the thread proposed above a new edition of Fuzion. And honestly? That's something I don't oppose. But I believe that it would need to be approached without outside influences. That it would need to have systems that are original designs. And consistent within Fuzion itself. Meaning that all of the Hero System specific artifacts would need to be abandoned.

That was me. I was going to start a thread on the subject, and I started some initial work on a Fuzion revision, but got distracted by something else.

Not all of the Hero influence needs to be abandoned, and frankly some of the Interlock influence could go. Yes, a new power system is needed. The 1998 "black and yellow cover" edition scrapped the Hero approach and included a bare-bones Powers system (which I think came from Dream Park) but it too left a lot to be desired.

My motivation is probably different than yours. I like Hero 6E and play in a weekly game. Even back in 98, I never saw Fuzion as replacing Hero, but a different game that I played for different reasons. I enjoy/ed both Fuzion and Hero, and if I revise the game it would be with that positivity in mind.

Quote from: Aglondir;1126886That was me. I was going to start a thread on the subject, and I started some initial work on a Fuzion revision, but got distracted by something else.

Not all of the Hero influence needs to be abandoned, and frankly some of the Interlock influence could go. Yes, a new power system is needed. The 1998 "black and yellow cover" edition scrapped the Hero approach and included a bare-bones Powers system (which I think came from Dream Park) but it too left a lot to be desired.

My motivation is probably different than yours. I like Hero 6E and play in a weekly game. Even back in 98, I never saw Fuzion as replacing Hero, but a different game that I played for different reasons. I enjoy/ed both Fuzion and Hero, and if I revise the game it would be with that positivity in mind.

Mine has always been this: That Fuzion needs its own identity to stand out. It's own unique approaches. Otherwise? What's the point?

I can't remember, was it Ron Edwards or Luke Crane who said that people who like playing D&D are brain damaged?

Quote from: remial;1127690I can't remember, was it Ron Edwards or Luke Crane who said that people who like playing D&D are brain damaged?

I think that's an overly simplistic view. As would be calling D&D a simulator of thieving and racist murder. It's not telling the whole story. Not even remotely.

The true goal of D&D was to simulate heroic fantasy.  With heavy inspiration by popular fantasy novels. It was far beyond just killing different races and creatures and taking their stuff. Yes, the game could be played that way. And many do. But it is not the base premise that fantasy RPGs were based on.

I know the basic premise because I read books designed by the fathers of the hobby to act as an introduction to the hobby for those who were complete outsiders. They were very clear and quite meticulous in detailing their intentions were for applying what they designed. And, yes, I still own those books.

D&D can clearly be misused. Pushed beyond the scope of what its creators intended. Just like any other RPG can be. just like anything else can be used to do things beyond its original intention.

Quote from: remial;1127690I can't remember, was it Ron Edwards or Luke Crane who said that people who like playing D&D are brain damaged?

Edwards said playing 1990s style railroads caused brain damage. That would apply to Dragonlance and Vecna Lives!, and presumably to Pathfinder APs, but not to old school D&D sandbox games.

Quote from: S'mon;1127744Edwards said playing 1990s style railroads caused brain damage. That would apply to Dragonlance and Vecna Lives!, and presumably to Pathfinder APs, but not to old school D&D sandbox games.

Interesting that he was replying to a quote that mentions Vampire and "a number of other offspring of a particular application of champions". Edit: He does say he thinks the WHite Wolf stuff was the worst perpetrator, if not the first (http://indie-rpgs.com/archive/index.php?topic=18707.msg196986#msg196986).

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/archive/index.php?topic=18707.0

A page later, he writes this in one long response (http://indie-rpgs.com/archive/index.php?topic=18707.msg196877#msg196877):

Quote5. Early role-playing history includes a vast diversity of play-approaches and game design. Commercially, it was canalized toward specific forms of Gamist play in the late 1970s, and that effect had a big impact on role-players of approximately my age (41), and a little younger. However, especially if we (this age group) didn't participate in role-playing much between the late 1980s and late 1990s, it's hard for us to understand what happened to the new wave-fronts. The commercial canalization was absolutely overwhelming, dropping the diversity of published game design to practically none. Gamist play and its troublesome relationship with other agendas is simply not the issue that drove the values-issues in role-playing culture during that time. Yes, it's hard to buy that, because to us, "good role-playing" was predicated on nothing but how one dealt with Gamist play (yes, no, how much, in what way, etc).

Instead, starting with the college crowd in the late 1980s, hitting the next wave of high-schoolers in the early 1990s, and peaking in the middle-late 1990s, the primary issue was as I've described above, this whole "story" thing, and again, dividing and re-coalescing and agonizing over (as I say above) "just say it, the dice don't matter," vs. gutting it out with the dice and saying it anyway. Both of which ultimately rely on Force for anything resembling story to emerge.

In many ways, the older bunch, especially a specific subset of RuneQuest and Champions players, understand how stories can emerge through actual decisions and actions during play better than the younger bunch. Not that it was common back then, but at least it was a matter of groping in the dark rather than gouging out one's eyes as a starting point. (Hey, John Kim, I think this is where you and I, for all our disagreements, do connect and recognize one another.)

Bold emphasis mine. This sounds a lot closer to what oldsters say about "story" round these parts than it does to any theory I've seen in storygamer circles. I noticed the absence of D&D in the quote, but I don't think it's necessarily meaningful (though it might be, who knows).

Edwards does not understand OSR DnD because he does not understand immersion as a goal, and does not understand how simulation and gamism are mutually supportive. But he has not accused it of damaging brains.

Quote from: S'mon;1127767Edwards does not understand OSR DnD because he does not understand immersion as a goal, and does not understand how simulation and gamism are mutually supportive. But he has not accused it of damaging brains.

Yeah.  The whole game/simulation/narrative trifecta has its problems, but also has some positive discussion angles.  At least it does as long as you ignore the whole Forge/Edwards "thought" that they are essentially mutually exclusive.  That's got to be one of the dumbest, ivory tower statements about game design, ever.

Quote from: S'mon;1127767Edwards does not understand OSR DnD because he does not understand immersion as a goal, and does not understand how simulation and gamism are mutually supportive. But he has not accused it of damaging brains.

I can't find the post, and maybe it wasn't him, but I could swear seeing a response from him to someone that made it very clear he was/is dismissive if not hostile to the idea of immersion. Whoever wrote the reply, basically told the guy that he needed therapy.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1127780I can't find the post, and maybe it wasn't him, but I could swear seeing a response from him to someone that made it very clear he was/is dismissive if not hostile to the idea of immersion. Whoever wrote the reply, basically told the guy that he needed therapy.

I guess Edwards' ability to immerse in a fictional world-state may indeed be indicative of 'brain damage'! I wonder how he relates to cinematic and literary fiction?

Someone have a "Champions Now for Dummies" or "Champions Now, Written for Normies"? Because i complete don't get this book, at all.

Quote from: S'mon;1127790I wonder how he relates to cinematic and literary fiction?

as he says in Champions Now "Face it: superhero comics are junk."

Quote from: remial;1127837as he says in Champions Now "Face it: superhero comics are junk."

Sounds like the type of guy I'd want writing a superhero RPG. :rolleyes:

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1127780I can't find the post, and maybe it wasn't him, but I could swear seeing a response from him to someone that made it very clear he was/is dismissive if not hostile to the idea of immersion. Whoever wrote the reply, basically told the guy that he needed therapy.

Dr. Ron said:

Quote"My response, which is actually a diagnosis of the existing activity:

Yes, "we" are still obsessed, in the manner that you have described. It's a creative and technical illness, much in the sense that early cinema was hampered by the assumption that what they filmed should look like a stage-set, viewed front-on, from the same distance, at all times.

The design decisions I've made with my current project are so not-RPG, but at the same time so dismissive of what's ordinarily called "consensual storytelling," that I cannot even begin to discuss it on-line. I can see the influences of Universalis, The Mountain Witch, and My Life with Master, but I cannot articulate the way that I have abandoned the player-character, yet preserved the moral responsibility of decision-making during play. That's all I'll say here, and I won't answer questions about it.

More specific to your question, Vincent, I'll say this: that protagonism was so badly injured during the history of role-playing (1970-ish through the present, with the height of the effect being the early 1990s), that participants in that hobby are perhaps the very last people on earth who could be expected to produce *all* the components of a functional story. No, the most functional among them can only be counted on to seize protagonism in their stump-fingered hands and scream protectively. You can tag Sorcerer with this diagnosis, instantly.

[The most damaged participants are too horrible even to look upon, much less to describe. This has nothing to do with geekery. When I say "brain damage," I mean it literally. Their minds have been *harmed.*]

Perhaps Primetime Adventures, My Life with Master, Dogs in the Vineyard, Polaris, etc etc, are really the best available prosthetics possible, permitting the damaged populace to do X? If so, what will people with limbs prefer to use, to do X?

I don't know. I can see its parts forming, as with a mid-term embryo, but what it will be and how it will work, and who will use it for what purposes, I don't know. My current project may be right on track with it, or I may be veering off in a hopeless direction."

Quote from: remial;1127690I can't remember, was it Ron Edwards or Luke Crane who said that people who like playing D&D are brain damaged?

That was Edwards. He also compared traditional RPG players to child abuse victims.

Quote from: S'mon;1127767Edwards does not understand OSR DnD because he does not understand immersion as a goal, and does not understand how simulation and gamism are mutually supportive. But he has not accused it of damaging brains.

This doesn't stop him from alleging that he was the true father of the OSR and that he was on the side of old-school gaming all along. Or at least, he claimed that a while back, when the OSR was at its peak and he wanted to profit from him. Maybe now he's thrown that down the memory hole, who knows?

Quote from: Theory of Games;1127853Dr. Ron said:

That wasn't the post I had in mind, but I'd seen that.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1128087That was Edwards. He also compared traditional RPG players to child abuse victims.

wow, that makes me want to give him my money even more than before!
is it ok if I say I think he is a douchebag on this forum, or are personal attacks like that not allowed?

Quote from: DarcyDettmann;1127821Someone have a "Champions Now for Dummies" or "Champions Now, Written for Normies"? Because i complete don't get this book, at all.

I read two pages and couldn't figure out WTF the point of the book was. Pure trash.

I read it and I could figure it out but I have no pre-existing biases against Ron Edwards... that helps.

I've had it for a couple of weeks. And I already discovered a major problem. Movement. There is no way to increase it as a basic function. You have to take a power to exceed the 6 hexes of running everybody starts with. This also applies to all other forms of movement. You have to take a power to do anything with it.

This is just frustrating. Because it shows that the game was not finished when it was rushed to publication. Playtesting should have caught such a gaping error.

Succinctly put. BLEAH! disjointed, poorly presented, I'll stick with 6ed.

Sadly, this is the level of quality we can expect from anything put out from Hero Games now. A complete lack of effort to make a competent product. Followed by a complete lack of support for the product.

This should have been treated like a big release. Something that the company should have gone all-in on promoting.

But sadly Kickstarter RPG products these days seem to end up poorly produced by people who just don't care about quality. So I'm not really inclined to buy anything further from Hero Games after this.

It's sad to see a property fall this far.

What is sad about Hero is that their plans to gain interest in their system to me at least has two approaches. It's all or nothing or grasping at straws imo. I would have done a 4E version of Champions now or Hero Now. I don't see too many people who were that huge fans of 3E. Plenty of fans of 4E and yet they choose an edition that seemed to me at least less popular and hoped it sold well. 6E was just such a strange beast imo in that it did nothing to draw in new fans, catered only to the old fans and the changes simply were not worth the price they were charging to me at least.

The running joke is that the 5E core could stop lower caliber bullets while looking like a college textbook well lets make two of them. If someone who might have been interested though intimidated by the size of Hero 5E was going to run to the hills with 6E. While the full color was nice the company was well known for black and white and again misread their target audience imo. No matter the production values many were and still are not that interested in that level of crunch and complexity even in full color.

If Hero Games has some long term master marketing strategy I just don't see it.

What is sad about Hero is that their plans to gain interest in their system to me at least has two approaches. It's all or nothing or grasping at straws imo. I would have done a 4E version of Champions now or Hero Now. I don't see too many people who were that huge fans of 3E. Plenty of fans of 4E and yet they choose an edition that seemed to me at least less popular and hoped it sold well. 6E was just such a strange beast imo in that it did nothing to draw in new fans, catered only to the old fans and the changes simply were not worth the price they were charging to me at least.

The running joke is that the 5E core could stop lower caliber bullets while looking like a college textbook well lets make two of them. If someone who might have been interested though intimidated by the size of Hero 5E was going to run to the hills with 6E. While the full color was nice the company was well known for black and white and again misread their target audience imo. No matter the production values many were and still are not that interested in that level of crunch and complexity even in full color.

Nor really doing any kind of editorial work on Champions from what I hear. I don't hate the guy yet giving us the Heor version of 1E DMG was probably not the best thing to do.

If Hero Games has some long term master marketing strategy I just don't see it.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1143251I've had it for a couple of weeks. And I already discovered a major problem. Movement. There is no way to increase it as a basic function. You have to take a power to exceed the 6 hexes of running everybody starts with. This also applies to all other forms of movement. You have to take a power to do anything with it.

This is just frustrating. Because it shows that the game was not finished when it was rushed to publication. Playtesting should have caught such a gaping error.

Can you provide some context? It doesn't sound like an error, as much as a different way of handling it. Are the costs for the "super movement" in CN the same as directly increasing "running" in 6E? Perhaps the author is trying to capture a 3rd edition style that subsequent editions moved away from?

Quote from: sureshot;1143301What is sad about Hero is that their plans to gain interest in their system to me at least has two approaches. It's all or nothing or grasping at straws imo. I would have done a 4E version of Champions now or Hero Now. I don't see too many people who were that huge fans of 3E. Plenty of fans of 4E and yet they choose an edition that seemed to me at least less popular and hoped it sold well. 6E was just such a strange beast imo in that it did nothing to draw in new fans, catered only to the old fans and the changes simply were not worth the price they were charging to me at least.

The running joke is that the 5E core could stop lower caliber bullets while looking like a college textbook well lets make two of them. If someone who might have been interested though intimidated by the size of Hero 5E was going to run to the hills with 6E. While the full color was nice the company was well known for black and white and again misread their target audience imo. No matter the production values many were and still are not that interested in that level of crunch and complexity even in full color.

Nor really doing any kind of editorial work on Champions from what I hear. I don't hate the guy yet giving us the Heor version of 1E DMG was probably not the best thing to do.

If Hero Games has some long term master marketing strategy I just don't see it.

If they really wanted to do color to bring in new gamers while maintaining the connection to the past, the correct tactics for that strategy would have been two-fold:

1. Do a reference book of rules with all the powers, build rules, etc.  Though not to the crazy extent that 5E went.  Make it black and white and boring, because that is what it is.  It's a book for the GM and the occasional interested player to make things for the campaign.  You won't make mint with this.  You won't bring in new players.  But you might keep the existing ones.

2. Then do single book, self-contained implementations of particular settings and genres with powers already calculated and setting information. Include only enough repeated rules to get people started.  Make this color and splashy.  Put some effort into layout.  Do more than one, but don't go berserk so as to cannibalize your own sales.   That is, don't do "Fantasy Hero Complete".  Don't do "Fantasy Setting X" and "Fantasy Setting Y" (at least not at first).  Pick one 4-color idea, one fantasy idea, maybe a street level or Justice Incorporate style idea, look at them really hard, rank them, and then come out with about 1 per year, including the first one launched about the time the boring reference book does.  

Bonus, the reference book doesn't even need to pretend to be exciting, which means its page count can be dedicated solely to what it is.

Now, I still don't think that strategy is a good one with Hero, because I think something more radical was needed to spark it.  But if that strategy is the one picked, at least give yourself a fighting chance.

Quote from: Aglondir;1143309Can you provide some context? It doesn't sound like an error, as much as a different way of handling it. Are the costs for the "super movement" in CN the same as directly increasing "running" in 6E? Perhaps the author is trying to capture a 3rd edition style that subsequent editions moved away from?

They are not the same. Not even a little bit. The only way to buy different modes of movement is to reskin and modify Flight. Which is extremely clunky at best. You cannot improve movement in any other way.

Quote from: sureshot;1143301The running joke is that the 5E core could stop lower caliber bullets while looking like a college textbook well lets make two of them. If someone who might have been interested though intimidated by the size of Hero 5E was going to run to the hills with 6E. While the full color was nice the company was well known for black and white and again misread their target audience imo. No matter the production values many were and still are not that interested in that level of crunch and complexity even in full color.

My introduction to Hero System was a 5e hardcover that I bought as a reference material for ideas (in case I missed anything), cuz I had been working on a homebrewed effect-based system that was basically Hero-light, except that it had been inspired by MSH (FASERIP) mixed with elements of D&D and other systems. And if I hadn't already been working on a similar system I wouldn't have bothered even reading or buying Hero 5e, cuz that thing was monstrous, wordy AF and hard to follow. I used to joke that you could kill someone with it with a well-placed blow to the head, and that a regular attack with it could probably do 1d6 clubbing damage in D&D.

It took me multiple read throughs to even get the gist of it, cuz the core system was over complicated and the book engaged in excessive use of acronyms for numerous game stats and power adders (or whatever "extras" are called), which made it had to remember WTF anything meant. I joined a thread about Hero System a few months ago over at the Pub, where the topic came up, and a couple of experienced players told me that 5e was probably the hardest edition for people new to Hero.

I guess when ICE went under and stopped publishing for Hero 4E the fans were willing to overlook the wordiness at first just get a new version of the Hero System. Savage Worlds was just entering the market so no competition. Then they wanted to cater to an ever shrinking fanbase, coupled with what seems to be marketing strategy where moneys throw darts at balloons. We have the current state of Hero. It also took YEARS to even get 6E products to Print on demand. At one point they had a bunch of 6E volume 2 for sale in print yet no Volume 1 except in PDF. Whose going to buy one core book in PDf and the other in print.

With 6E they doubled down on not what to do and expected the fanbase to bend over and be happy with the final result.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;11433191. Do a reference book of rules with all the powers, build rules, etc.  Though not to the crazy extent that 5E went.  Make it black and white and boring, because that is what it is.  It's a book for the GM and the occasional interested player to make things for the campaign.  You won't make mint with this.  You won't bring in new players.  But you might keep the existing ones.

Correct. I would add: OGL it.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;11433192. Then do single book, self-contained implementations of particular settings and genres with powers already calculated and setting information. Include only enough repeated rules to get people started.  Make this color and splashy.  Put some effort into layout.  Do more than one, but don't go berserk so as to cannibalize your own sales.

Correct. Start with a fantasy game that can appeal to D&D players. Everything is pre-built. There are no power construction rules. Instead, those 84 pages (last time I counted) are for spells, monsters, and treasure. So for example, a Wizard spell looks like this:

Lightning Bolt: A bolt of lightning springs forth from your staff (or wand) and strikes a single opponent in range.

• Casting time: 1 phase
• Roll: Spellcraft skill
• Damage: 10d6
• Defense: ED
• Requires: Incantations, gestures, staff or wand, 5 END
• Cost: 11 CP

Not this: Bolt Of Magical Force: Blast 10d6; Extra Time (Full Phase, -½), OAF (wand, staff, rod, or the like; -1), Gestures (throughout; -1), Incantations (throughout; -½), Requires Magic Roll (-½). 11 CP.


General Principles

• No number crunching. The player simply selects from pre-built options to make a character.  The GM simply selects pre-built monsters and treasures.
  
• English, not Hero-ese. Some abbreviations are fine (every RPG has some) but we never should see the parentheses and fractions.
  
• No option-itis: This is standard dungeon fantasy. We don't need sections on different magical mechanics or explanations on the sub-genres of fantasy.
  

Aglondir,

I like that spell listing a lot.  However, if going that route, the spell still has to be calculated by someone.  So I'd do that in a separate PDF and provide a download link for anyone that is interested in examples of how to modify the spells.  Then maybe have an appendix in the printed book, no more than a page or two, that gives the directions for the download and a brief example and introduction to how it works, but mainly referring to the other documents.

All you really need to make that work well is a coding system to link the human-readable spell from the encoded version.  In the PDF, don't include the fluff at all.  It's redundant for the purpose and would make the PDF a pirate's dream for not buying the color book, defeating the purpose of the whole scheme.  Also, that gives GMs that want to make their game more approachable a template for how to do it even when they do enjoy monkeying with the full list of powers and making their own.  In fact, that is often how I ran Hero:  Do all the calculations with the help of another player or two, then give simplified options to the rest of the players.

Summary of the above - present a game built with the Hero toolkit, not the toolkit itself. Keep the toolkit "under the hood", and provide the toolkit separately for those interested.

Quote from: RandyB;1143391Summary of the above - present a game built with the Hero toolkit, not the toolkit itself. Keep the toolkit "under the hood", and provide the toolkit separately for those interested.

But of course they have done that, and still not big sellers. Narosia comes to mind, and there are a few others...

Champions Now is not as complete as Fuzion was as a system.

Let that sink in a moment. It's an inferior product to Fuzion in just about every way.

Quote from: shuddemell;1143406But of course they have done that, and still not big sellers. Narosia comes to mind, and there are a few others...

IMHO - The 'toolkit' Hero system itself needs to be streamlined, simplified, and cleaned up before you can even think about doing a complete game.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1143384Aglondir,

I like that spell listing a lot.  However, if going that route, the spell still has to be calculated by someone.  So I'd do that in a separate PDF and provide a download link for anyone that is interested in examples of how to modify the spells.  Then maybe have an appendix in the printed book, no more than a page or two, that gives the directions for the download and a brief example and introduction to how it works, but mainly referring to the other documents.

All you really need to make that work well is a coding system to link the human-readable spell from the encoded version.  In the PDF, don't include the fluff at all.  It's redundant for the purpose and would make the PDF a pirate's dream for not buying the color book, defeating the purpose of the whole scheme.  Also, that gives GMs that want to make their game more approachable a template for how to do it even when they do enjoy monkeying with the full list of powers and making their own.  In fact, that is often how I ran Hero:  Do all the calculations with the help of another player or two, then give simplified options to the rest of the players.

Thanks. The spells are already built. They just need to be translated out of Hero-ese.

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Quote from: shuddemell;1143406But of course they have done that, and still not big sellers. Narosia comes to mind, and there are a few others...

Hero Games has never done it, at least they way I am envisioning. Narosia was a 3PP.  Danger International (1984) and Western Hero (1991) come close, but neither have powers/magic/psi/whatever. The Fantasy Hero products of the ICE era had package deals, which are on the right track but still fall short of the idea I'm thinking about.

Quote from: Aglondir;1143609Hero Games has never done it, at least they way I am envisioning. Narosia was a 3PP.  Danger International (1984) and Western Hero (1991) come close, but neither have powers/magic/psi/whatever. The Fantasy Hero products of the ICE era had package deals, which are on the right track but still fall short of the idea I'm thinking about.

Obviously, I cannot speak to what you are imagining, however I would say that for something like that to be successful, it likely would have to be attached to a known IP to draw people into it. I personally think that Narosia (yes it was third party) was the right idea but without a head of steam built from an IP, most people won't change to a new system. It's one of the things D&D has really going for it, a legacy. It hasn't been the best game for a long time, but it is the best known and that goes a long way to ensure their survival that Hero and others like it just don't have.

Here's the main problem:  The content of this theoretical source book has to be good.  Which is why I said that it would be the proper tactics to follow for their given strategy, but that I don't think the strategy will work even if they did use proper tactics.  People doing good content don't want to be tied down to something like the Hero System.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1143674Here's the main problem:  The content of this theoretical source book has to be good.  Which is why I said that it would be the proper tactics to follow for their given strategy, but that I don't think the strategy will work even if they did use proper tactics.  People doing good content don't want to be tied down to something like the Hero System.

The hell of it is, Hero had good content - the Champions Universe. And then they sold it outright for quick cash. They retained tabletop RPG publishing rights, but creative control went with the sale. When that cash ran out, they stopped publishing and started managing what little IP they had left - the Hero System indicia.

Quote from: RandyB;1143675The hell of it is, Hero had good content - the Champions Universe. And then they sold it outright for quick cash. They retained tabletop RPG publishing rights, but creative control went with the sale. When that cash ran out, they stopped publishing and started managing what little IP they had left - the Hero System indicia.

They didn't just sell the setting. They sold the characters, the individual superhero IPs they had. All of it. Completely strip-mined Champions as an entity.

The Hero System itself proved itself to not be worth anything without the Champions IP.

The Hero System ran its course. It's done. Over. And the time to move on from it was decades ago.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1143328They are not the same. Not even a little bit. The only way to buy different modes of movement is to reskin and modify Flight. Which is extremely clunky at best. You cannot improve movement in any other way.

Wat.

No super parkour, no web swinging, no super-speed, no teleportation, no tunnelling?

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1143697Wat.

No super parkour, no web swinging, no super-speed, no teleportation, no tunnelling?

Yeah. Which was totally my reaction. Complete shock. How could they forget something so basic? It utterly dumbfounded me.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1143688They didn't just sell the setting. They sold the characters, the individual superhero IPs they had. All of it. Completely strip-mined Champions as an entity.

The Hero System itself proved itself to not be worth anything without the Champions IP.

The Hero System ran its course. It's done. Over. And the time to move on from it was decades ago.

Fortunately, you don't get to make that decision. It's still alive and well at my table.

Quote from: shuddemell;1143776Fortunately, you don't get to make that decision. It's still alive and well at my table.

Being popular at someone table does not mean as a whole the Hero System is alive and well.

It's great that it's played at your table as despite my issues with the system it deserves to be played and run.

At the same time I can say Rifts is still popular and profitable just because I was in a recent short lived campaign on Discord.

Subjectively and how a gamer feels the system is not dead. Objectively and what we can see with Hero Games  relying solely on 3PP it's not dead it's pretty close and on life support.

Do I want it to thrive and survive sure. Hero Games and the Hero Grognords have done their damn best to make sure it's not imo.

Your gone need to tell us more "well it's alive at my table!" to convince me and others as looking at it objectively Hero System has one foot in the grave.

Quote from: sureshot;1143792Do I want it to thrive and survive sure. Hero Games and the Hero Grognords have done their damn best to make sure it's not imo.

Your gone need to tell us more "well it's alive at my table!" to convince me and others as looking at it objectively Hero System has one foot in the grave.

   The dilemma is this: Can the HERO System both "thrive and survive" and remain recognizably the HERO System? A lot of the changes proposed, both here and elsewhere, wind up being so radical that the game would be about as close to vintage HERO as 5E is to the OSR--you can recognize the lines of descent, but the differences are strong enough that people can legitimately argue that they're not the same game any more.

   Now, that may be what's necessary for a game to be successful in today's market. But it also means you'd alienate most, if not all, of the vintage fans--and with no guarantee of attracting new ones to replace them. Again, that kind of gamble may be necessary for commercial success, but why should fans of the system as it is care about it? I'm not saying that DOJ (or what's left of them) shouldn't do it--I'd actually like a lighter, more streamlined HERO that retains the underlying coherence, flexibility and definition. But I am saying that if that's the direction you're going, you're probably not going to get much more than generic good wishes from many old-time fans at best.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1143798The dilemma is this: Can the HERO System both "thrive and survive" and remain recognizably the HERO System? A lot of the changes proposed, both here and elsewhere, wind up being so radical that the game would be about as close to vintage HERO as 5E is to the OSR--you can recognize the lines of descent, but the differences are strong enough that people can legitimately argue that they're not the same game any more.

Keeping the status quo and not changing anything while also catering just to the Hero System Grognards has not done the company or the Hero system any favors imo. The status quo was kept up until 6E with the result being that the company has one foot in the grave and on life support. With the Hero System not as popular and being replace with Savage Worlds. It is a versatile toolkit of a system that one can use to pretty much writing up anything seen in movies, comicx, TV etc. Except many gamers don't want that kind of system anymore to the point by voting with their wallets and moving on.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1143798Noww, that may be what's necessary for a game to be successful in today's market. But it also means you'd alienate most, if not all, of the vintage fans--and with no guarantee of attracting new ones to replace them. Again, that kind of gamble may be necessary for commercial success, but why should fans of the system as it is care about it? I'm not saying that DOJ (or what's left of them) shouldn't do it, but I am saying that if that's the direction you're going, you're probably not going to get much more than generic good wishes from old-time fans at best.

Given how many Hero System Grognards at least in my experience and from what I have seen on forums hate changing the system they would alienate themselves anyway. One can't hold back trying to save ones company because the grognards are afraid of change yet at the same time want to keep the status quo and see a miraculous recovery of the Hero System...any day just any day now. It's a selfish thing to say yet to save the infected limb one must remove the infected gangrene part. Either way the grognards have made it clear for the most part they won't buy a less complex and rules crunchy and I see no need for Hero Games to be held hostage by them.

I get your point yet unless something new and different and dare I say it a new less rules complex and crunchy system I don't see the rot spreading I see it getting worse until either they keep limping along until they go out of business while being bought out by someone who will like it or not release a more simplified set of rules. It's a risk yet they have to try something new it's just 6E with better layout and old rules the grognards will call it a money grab and gamers like me will then claim it's not different enough.

This is, of course, granting the assumption that the company wants or needs saving. If they want to get out of maintenance mode, then yes, a major shift somewhere--whether in system or in the broader market--is almost certainly necessary. But it may be that the people in charge have enough other lines of business (the owners of Hero also own IPR, after all) that they don't see the need, or they don't think the chance of success is worth the gamble. Given how 5E seems to be achieving an almost suffocating domination of the new market, they may be right about the latter.

Quote from: sureshot;1143792Being popular at someone table does not mean as a whole the Hero System is alive and well.

It's great that it's played at your table as despite my issues with the system it deserves to be played and run.

At the same time I can say Rifts is still popular and profitable just because I was in a recent short lived campaign on Discord.

Subjectively and how a gamer feels the system is not dead. Objectively and what we can see with Hero Games  relying solely on 3PP it's not dead it's pretty close and on life support.

Do I want it to thrive and survive sure. Hero Games and the Hero Grognords have done their damn best to make sure it's not imo.

Your gone need to tell us more "well it's alive at my table!" to convince me and others as looking at it objectively Hero System has one foot in the grave.

I don't mean it is being economically successful, I was replying to the idea that it's time to move on. Why? Seems like this forum is definitely NOT about moving on, after all people are still reviving a game that is 46 years old. It's kind of interesting that there are a core group of fans still playing the same Hero they've been playing for years, and yet they get blamed for its supposed failure. Because they are happy with it the way it is? Change for change's sake is pointless. If anything, Hero made such a solid system that for the most part those that used it regularly were happy enough with what it offered that they didn't see a need for massive changes. That Hero still survives, to change it in a way that reflects current sensibilities about gaming would guarantee it isn't the Hero the grognards love. Based on that alone, I would say it's as alive as it's going to get. If by alive and well, you mean commercially sucessful... well obviously not. Then again some of the systems that are commercially successful are trash in my opinion... I feel that way about Savage Worlds. There's a system for everyone, but no system will please everyone.

But that's the problem. 5th Edition and beyond were marketed solely at the grognards who didn't want any change. And that's proven to be an abject failure by the state of the company today.

The Hero System is not selling because the system is too complex. That complexity drives off the more casual gamer and convinces them that the game is not for them. Before they even open the cover of the books. Which is a catastrophe for any company hoping their products will be successful.

You can't market to the grognards. Because they already have the version of the game they want. They aren't interested in buying new products. So catering to them is company suicide.

4th edition was the tipping point for many fans. The tipping point toward complexity started there. And only got worse as more products without editorial oversight came out.

The only thing I agree with Ron Edwards on was that third edition was an end of an era. One where Champions was still relatively accessible and user-friendly.

I also stick with the opinion, that the efforts that started Fuzion were steps in the right direction. But sadly with the constant complaining and push back from the grognard set that was even working for the company, Fuzion didn't really get a chance to truly succeed because it was sabotaged internally.

Fuzion succeeded as well as it did because of the fans. Not because of the companies that started it. All credit should go to the fan creators who took that bare skeleton of a system and made good things with it. They are the ones who truly deserve the credit.

The original notes I sent to Steve Peterson that resulted in the birth of Fuzion was a complete system analysis and set of suggestions for starting anew. That original advice I still hold as being as valid as it was when I first submitted it. It was a beginning. And that beginning could still eventually produce something useful. If it were allowed to.

Champions Now I had hope for when I dropped my $35 for it. That maybe it could have been something finally after so many years that could have put Hero Games in a new direction. But sadly, I was disappointed by an objectively bad product. Another "could have been", instead of a product that could be taken seriously.

But right now? The game looking to best serve the ostracized audience that once surrounded the Hero System is actually ICONS. A game that is simple, direct, and contains no exploitable mathematical acrobatics that complicates and create exploits within the game. It just does what it does.

So I went from being one of the Hero faithful to seeing the system be superseded by the rising competition. The competition that rose from the same frustrations with Hero that I have and continue to express.

The Hero System is gone. It's not selling anymore. And it's not coming back. Nor does it have a legacy that would sell products anymore. It is just done.

The grognards won. The Hero System is no longer a viable saleable product anymore.

It's pretty obvious that you stick with the opinion that if only they had followed your direction it would be a great success. I've seen you espouse that position on numerous occasions. Perhaps you could be right that, if they had changed tack they would have gained a new audience, and of course, lost the old one. For a dead system, one you should have written off decades ago, you still have rather strong feelings about something that is dead and gone. It gives off a slightly creepy, jilted stalker vibe. Obviously, Peterson felt selling the property his best bet, rather than your proffered advice. I don't know if that is because he wanted out, didn't agree with your direction, felt it was best to cut and run, et al. I personally thought that, at least as it was presented, Fuzion didn't add any value to Hero. I think that was a lot of people's opinions at the time, though that could be purely because it was released as a half-baked melange of two systems, rather than a unified system taking good ideas from it's predecessors. I wonder too, if there really is an ostracized audience or if indeed, the players got what they wanted from the system and didn't see a need to change it. Is it perfect?, hardly, but what it does do well, it does exceedingly well, and myself and a number of others are happy with what they have. Personally, I can't see anything that you've argued changing making the system better, just more to your liking. I also don't think there is a way to retain the level of detail I and other grognards like me prefer without having a robust, and by some standards complicated, system to manage it. I have yet to play a more flexible, and detailed system, but it isn't going to get simpler and retain that detail and also remain even remotely the same "dead" system we have spent the past few decades "wasting" our time on, and at this point I don't think that it is a matter of winning or losing. Some of us will be happy with what we have and what we can create with it, and some of us will continually moan about what might have been.

One other thing is the idea that grognards don't buy new products. That is patently false, I spend more on this hobby than ever before as do most of my crusty, old friends, I always give new versions a chance, but you have to produce something BETTER not just different for it to be of value imo.

I too buy new stuff and consider myself a grognard though I gave myself the term of enlightened grognard. In that whether I like it or not sometimes rpgs need to grow and adapt to continue to thrive and survive while also leaving the grognards that hold them hostage behind. One keeps the status quo when one rpg company is profitable and thriving not when it is one foot in the grave. Hero fans especially the groganrds of the system leave in fantasy world of their own making where everything is well and good, nothing needs to be changed and a miraclious (only in their minds) recovery is around the corner any day...any day.

Grognards who buy new material are the exception not the norm it's why the term in rpg was created. Playing only one truwayism of a version of rpg and everything else is crap. Not all of course yet gamers also tend to be nortriously cheap expecting to get tommorow rpgs now at yesterdays prices.

Yes a completely new set of rules may make things worse yet keeping the status quo is just doing nothing for a dying company and system. Why not try something new even if it maybe the company and system last hurrah. I go to other forums and people like to complain and whine about how they cannot find new players for Hero System and regular Rifts yet in the same breath want nothing to change. One can't have it both ways complain about a lack of interest in rpg XYZ then also want no changes to the rpg.

I know Savage Rifts gets a lot of crap on these forums yet it brought gamers back into playing Rifts witha renewed interest though only Savage Rifts. With new products on the way. Palladium Books pollutes my email feed with them constantly shilling new PDFs sales instead of sending updates about new product.

The problem with a new editions is that it's a catch-22 sometimes one has to give new product yet also make it different enough that it's not a rehash. While also making it similar than the previous version.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1143837I also stick with the opinion, that the efforts that started Fuzion were steps in the right direction. But sadly with the constant complaining and push back from the grognard set that was even working for the company, Fuzion didn't really get a chance to truly succeed because it was sabotaged internally.

Constant complaining by grognards can't cause a game to fail. Otherwise, third edition D&D would have been a disaster. D&D 3e didn't succeed by convincing 2e players to switch, it succeeded by attracting huge number of people that weren't currently playing D&D. That game had two advantages: firstly it was a well designed, playtested game and, secondly, the game it replaced (AD&D) was a bloated, clunky mess. For Champions, you had the exact opposite situation. A well liked version (4e) was replaced by a clunky mess of a new game.

IOW, Champion New Millennium didn't fail because of the Champions grognards as those people weren't even the game's target audience.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1143935IOW, Champion New Millennium didn't fail because of the Champions grognards as those people weren't even the game's target audience.

First edition Champions: New Millenium was an objectively bad product. Not playtested. With an incomplete unfinished game system. Champions: New Millemium 2nd Edition was even more of an attempt to shoehorn Hero System mechanics into Fuzion. When it needed to be its own thing. As a result, both of those editions failed pretty spectacularly.

I own both of those products. The grognards freelancing for the company were constantly putting pressure on the original owners to go back to the Hero System and publish Hero System 5th Edition. Which they had flat out rejected as being the wrong direction for their company.

They were being trolled so constantly from within and without that their products couldn't succeed.

I too, own both those products, and it's one thing we definitely agree on. CNM wasn't ready for publication due to both rushing an untested system to market and it's unresolved identity crisis. Neither of these did Fuzion, Hero or any of the people involved any good. Though I still wonder how it is that a company decided a course of action was in it's best interest, and yet they allowed people griping about what they wanted to change what they believed to be their best course? While there are certainly parallels with the woke and SJW crowd, I am not sure it is really trolling if the people are just telling the company what they would like to see. In fact, sounds like customer service. Or is it only trolling when it doesn't achieve the result you want? Seems that the staff at Hero rethought their position and decided on a different course of action (and right or wrong, that is their choice.) At the time I looked forward to a new Hero/Fuzion, but neither materialized in a playable way, so at least for most of us 5th Edition was the way forward. And I would submit, if I as a grognard bought Champions Now and yet was unwilling to try something new, why would I waste my money that way? You assume a lot about other people's motives, especially re: trolling, that perhaps aren't really accurate.

I'm mischaracterizing nothing. I lived through the Fuzion mess and watched it unfold. There was a ton constant trolling from the pro-5th edition side. Straight up harassment of the original owners. Who didn't want to publish it.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1143950I'm mischaracterizing nothing. I lived through the Fuzion mess and watched it unfold. There was a ton constant trolling from the pro-5th edition side. Straight up harassment of the original owners. Who didn't want to publish it.

Define trolling in this context. I fail to see how anyone can force someone to publish something they don't want to.

Constant sustained harassment. Online and off. It doesn't get more plain than that.

Actually it could be more plain. Were there threats of violence? Or was it just people voicing their opinion? How did they force them to publish something that they didn't want to publish. You seem to be saying that somehow they forced them to publish against their will. Exactly how did that work? I don't know about you, but if I didn't want to do something, I don't care what you say, I am not doing it. Period, flat out, so there has to be more than that. People are easy to ignore.

From what i have seen at TBP before being banned years ago and on their forums the Hero Grognards are imo very much any change of any kind. When asked what they would do to try and reverse Hero Games downward, they either refuse to answer or just parrot repeat no change and maintaining the status quo. I can't talk about how the Hero System Grognards were toward Fuzion yet again not surprised. I would not be surprised if it was the same damnthing. No solutions other keeping and maintaining the status quo and any major changes will destroy the Hero System. Not that it's in a bag shape as it it is or anything it's in perfect health after all.

Whether it is here or another rpg forum try and start a conversation about trying to improve the state of Hero Games and/or the Hero System the same thing happens almost everytime. It's only different if say someone writes in the OP that if someone is going to respond to not post comments as maintaining the status quo and no changes.


It's like the Dark Eye they keep trying to make inroads to the North American market yet another example of an rpg company catering to their grognards and it dies on the vine. Especially with gamers who have been spooled with the D20 system.

It's even worse than that. If you say anything contrary to the party line anywhere on the net, they will know and they will do their best to make sure you are banned. They hold a tyrannical sway over that community and subject. So you are either with them, or you are the enemy to be obliterated from the internet.

There was an incident I heard of at a GenCon over 20 years ago about a bunch of the Hero elite going over to the publisher of a smaller competing superhero game. And literally bullying them out of the building in a mafia-style manner. I heard this account face to face from one of the perpetrators. So know it to be true. He was bragging. Showing pride for that behavior. And I was just disgusted.

I checked privately with that small publisher about that account. And they confirmed it happened exactly as described.

So I'm more than a detractor. I'm a witness.

The core Hero community was toxic before the term was popularized in the media. They thought they were untouchable. Unaccountable. But with the rise of publishers they couldn't bully out of existence, they aren't as relevant or valuable to the superhero RPG hobby as they were. Other games have knocked the Hero System off the pedestal it was once securely held above all others.

I don't celebrate the current condition Hero Games is in. Quite to the contrary. I was a Hero believer. I believed in its potential. What the company could grow to be. If it were allowed to actually grow and evolve its products.

But I'm also not going to sit back and pretend everything is hunky-dory within the Hero community itself. Because it's not. They have run off virtually every dissenting voice in nearly every form of gaming media. The level of control that corrupt community of grognards exert has been downright Orwellian.

Showing truth to power has always been one of my biggest motivations. And I am fed up with being a whipping boy in places like TBP for having the nerve of simply having a contrary opinion to those in power. I'm sick of being punished for it.

When Pundit recruited me for this board years ago. I was skeptical. And I did not post for a long time. Because I had grown accustomed to being bullied, disregarded and generally abused. It took time for me to feel safe in posting here. To believe enough in the place to truly be apart of it.

Pundit knows where I came from. The chat known as #randomworlds on Magicstar.net. Which used to be the unofficial RPG.net chatroom. He was convincing enough to get me to register. Convincing enough for me to try. He met me there under one of my various identities. And that's where he gave me the invitation. In the mental state I was, that was truly miraculous that it got through to me.

Pundit likely doesn't remember that bit of kindness to someone who felt absolutely disenfranchised. But to me? It got me to try again.

Quote from: RandyB;1143675The hell of it is, Hero had good content - the Champions Universe. And then they sold it outright for quick cash. They retained tabletop RPG publishing rights, but creative control went with the sale. When that cash ran out, they stopped publishing and started managing what little IP they had left - the Hero System indicia.

The 5E Hero line has amazing content. And I say that as a 6E fan.

Edit: The CU is great. But I'm thinking about Hudson City, Urban Fantasy Hero, The Terran Empire, Pulp Hero, etc. Some of my favorite RPG books. Regardless what system they use, they have some great source material, sort of like Gurps in that regard.

Quote from: shuddemell;1143931For a dead system, one you should have written off decades ago, you still have rather strong feelings about something that is dead and gone. It gives off a slightly creepy, jilted stalker vibe.

Very much so.

As far as his harassment claims. Darren makes similar claims against anyone who disagrees with his posts so it is a low bar.


The idea that the Grognards won because 6th ed I find hilarious. 6th ed made significant changes unpopular with many long time players. It did make the game even more complex which was a wrong move, but it was not a win for the grognards.


For what it is worth, I kind of like Fuzion, but it wasn't ready for prime time when released. With more work it might have been a pretty good game.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1144088Very much so.

As far as his harassment claims. Darren makes similar claims against anyone who disagrees with his posts so it is a low bar.


The idea that the Grognards won because 6th ed I find hilarious. 6th ed made significant changes unpopular with many long time players. It did make the game even more complex which was a wrong move, but it was not a win for the grognards.


For what it is worth, I kind of like Fuzion, but it wasn't ready for prime time when released. With more work it might have been a pretty good game.

The biggest problem with Fuzion was the marketing. It was presented as the replacement for two highly popular systems, and it was different enough from each that both player bases felt betrayed and abandoned.

As it's own thing, distinct from Hero and Interlock yet compatible with both, and with each of the other two kept alive and actively published? Fuzion might have stood a better chance in that scenario.

As for fans harassing people -- to whatever degree it happened, that sucks, but that's its own thing. It doesn't mean that their tastes are invalid. It's fine for people to like the HERO System as-is without change. I think it's nonsense to demand of fans "They should like new editions so they can be successful." The whole OSR, for example, is about liking old editions.

Quote from: RandyB;1144092The biggest problem with Fuzion was the marketing. It was presented as the replacement for two highly popular systems, and it was different enough from each that both player bases felt betrayed and abandoned.

As it's own thing, distinct from Hero and Interlock yet compatible with both, and with each of the other two kept alive and actively published? Fuzion might have stood a better chance in that scenario.

In the RPG market, almost any new system - especially a new generic system - is likely to be a flop. A generic system has to be quite exceptional to be successful, and Fuzion was not a great design. While I agree the marketing was handled badly, I think trying to market it outside the existing HERO and Interlock fans would be even harder.

Finally got a chance to look through Champions Now and it's exactly how it's been described. There's a sample character whose disadvantages include this:

"Psychological Limitation: Stands up for marginalized person's selfhood (often)"

She belongs to "a group of dedicated super-powered activists" who "concentrate on activism, organizing events, and outreach to grassroots community efforts."

Another character of this group is a "lily-white East Coast Ivy Leaguer" who "leverages that privilege against his own class and makes people like it."


It's hard to believe that a man in his late 50s wrote this.

I have this book. I've read it several times. And it always leaves me wondering one thing.

Who in their right mind is going to run this or play this?

The only thing this has done is convince me that Icons is my future in superhero gaming. Not this.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 27, 2020, 03:20:49 PM
I have this book. I've read it several times. And it always leaves me wondering one thing.

Who in their right mind is going to run this or play this?

The only thing this has done is convince me that Icons is my future in superhero gaming. Not this.

May I humbly suggest Guardians?
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/172576/Guardians?src=hottest_filtered

Quote from: thomden on April 20, 2021, 10:34:02 PM

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 27, 2020, 03:20:49 PM
I have this book. I've read it several times. And it always leaves me wondering one thing.

Who in their right mind is going to run this or play this?

The only thing this has done is convince me that Icons is my future in superhero gaming. Not this.

May I humbly suggest Guardians?
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/172576/Guardians?src=hottest_filtered

Guardians is a great game, it only needs a hack for non-powered (or almost) pulp vigilantes.

I hear you're the author of Warriors of the red planet? Know of any bestiary for ERB's Venus, Moon, Pellucidar? Or a list with the flora, fauna, sentients?

Good point. I'm working on a Companion book for Guardians, I'll put in a Non-Powered Vigilante.

Warriors of the Red Planet should have most of the creatures from Amtor and Pellucidar - though with slightly changed names to avoid any issues. If you notice any missing let me know!

I've just been reading a lot of Leigh Brackett lately and was thinking of combing through her work for more creatures to add.

Quote from: thomden on April 21, 2021, 05:12:10 AM
Good point. I'm working on a Companion book for Guardians, I'll put in a Non-Powered Vigilante.

Warriors of the Red Planet should have most of the creatures from Amtor and Pellucidar - though with slightly changed names to avoid any issues. If you notice any missing let me know!

I've just been reading a lot of Leigh Brackett lately and was thinking of combing through her work for more creatures to add.

Thanks! I'll read carefully the bestiary then.

I've got a few vigilante type classes worked, for White Box, let me know if you're interested in seeing them.

It turns out that Champions Now wasn't the original product pitched. That there was another new version of Champions pitched that was intended to be a more user-friendly version. That in the end, got rejected in favor of Champions Now.

They were charging the author of that previous pitch a $1000 licensing fee for the privilege of writing a new version of the game for them. And he actually had the money ready when they rejected him.

The author was fairly well known in the Hero System community. As he had written several books based on the line in the past. This wasn't someone untested. This is someone who knew what they were doing and had the credentials to back it up.

As a result, that author has gone to another company and is converting all of his straight-out owned books over to the new company's system.

So what do we have with Champions Now? A game the company doesn't support at all. Something I regard as a straight-up failure of a product. Something they Kickstarted and threw all of the money that was pledged away to produce.

The greed and stupidity at play here were staggering. They threw away a guaranteed success for something that never would succeed.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on April 21, 2021, 01:10:25 PM
The author was fairly well known in the Hero System community. As he had written several books based on the line in the past. This wasn't someone untested. This is someone who knew what they were doing and had the credentials to back it up.

Can you tell us who? And any details about the original idea?

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on April 21, 2021, 01:10:25 PM
It turns out that Champions Now wasn't the original product pitched. That there was another new version of Champions pitched that was intended to be a more user-friendly version. That in the end, got rejected in favor of Champions Now.

They were charging the author of that previous pitch a $1000 licensing fee for the privilege of writing a new version of the game for them. And he actually had the money ready when they rejected him.

...
So what do we have with Champions Now? A game the company doesn't support at all. Something I regard as a straight-up failure of a product. Something they Kickstarted and threw all of the money that was pledged away to produce.

The greed and stupidity at play here were staggering. They threw away a guaranteed success for something that never would succeed.

Epic Fail.

Hero/Champions is  dead.

Yeah, yeah, I hear you... There are fans out there who still play it, and you know a guy who, or are aware of this local scene that, blah blah blah blah...

Hey! Hero games even has a websites where you can buy product!

No one cares.

Because the people who own the HERO IP made sure of it.

If Hero games never published a new product in the future, no one would notice.

If they were to go bankrupt and disappear with no announcements; no one would think to ask about them.

No one is talking about what the next new hotness from hero games is going to be.

Because nobody gives a shit.

They have made themselves just that insignificant in the RPG hobby.

Quote from: Aglondir on April 21, 2021, 09:48:45 PM
Can you tell us who? And any details about the original idea?

Michael Surbrook. I spoke to him at a Q&A on Discord.

He didn't give details of what the original idea would be. And I didn't press the matter,

He said the HERO System is dead to him now. And I just wished him good luck.

Quote from: Jaeger on April 22, 2021, 12:25:26 AM

Hero/Champions is  dead.

Because nobody gives a shit.

They have made themselves just that insignificant in the RPG hobby.

I don't know much about Champions Now or the drama behind it. Champions is one those games that had a solid enough engine that it didn't really need new editions. Kinda like Runequest or Cthulhu in that way, I'm just as satisfied with the original 1st editions.

It's not like D&D that really needed new editions.

I will say I liked that quick start primer book for the Hero system they made back during 5th edition.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 21, 2021, 10:57:40 AM

I've got a few vigilante type classes worked, for White Box, let me know if you're interested in seeing them.

Cool, I could totally use that as a base. I'd make a few tweaks and give it some cool art. You can IM me if you want to write some content.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on April 22, 2021, 04:22:48 AM
Michael Surbrook. I spoke to him at a Q&A on Discord.

  That explains a few things, and Surbrook's definitely got the track record. If they're smart, Pinnacle Games will snatch him up to contribute to their Martial Arts Companion for Savage Worlds.

Quote from: thomden on April 22, 2021, 06:33:23 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 21, 2021, 10:57:40 AM

I've got a few vigilante type classes worked, for White Box, let me know if you're interested in seeing them.

Cool, I could totally use that as a base. I'd make a few tweaks and give it some cool art. You can IM me if you want to write some content.

Woooooooooooooooooo! Wait, what? Who me? Really?

Quote from: Jaeger on April 22, 2021, 12:25:26 AM

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on April 21, 2021, 01:10:25 PM
It turns out that Champions Now wasn't the original product pitched. That there was another new version of Champions pitched that was intended to be a more user-friendly version. That in the end, got rejected in favor of Champions Now.

They were charging the author of that previous pitch a $1000 licensing fee for the privilege of writing a new version of the game for them. And he actually had the money ready when they rejected him.

...
So what do we have with Champions Now? A game the company doesn't support at all. Something I regard as a straight-up failure of a product. Something they Kickstarted and threw all of the money that was pledged away to produce.

The greed and stupidity at play here were staggering. They threw away a guaranteed success for something that never would succeed.

Epic Fail.

Hero/Champions is  dead.

Yeah, yeah, I hear you... There are fans out there who still play it, and you know a guy who, or are aware of this local scene that, blah blah blah blah...

Hey! Hero games even has a websites where you can buy product!

No one cares.

Because the people who own the HERO IP made sure of it.

If Hero games never published a new product in the future, no one would notice.

If they were to go bankrupt and disappear with no announcements; no one would think to ask about them.

No one is talking about what the next new hotness from hero games is going to be.

Because nobody gives a shit.

They have made themselves just that insignificant in the RPG hobby.

But the dead horse hasn't been beaten nearly enough...

Quote from: RandyB on April 22, 2021, 11:53:42 AM

But the dead horse hasn't been beaten nearly enough...

And it never will.

The beating of dead horses never gets old.

Making the Rubble Bounce is its own reward.

Quote from: Jaeger on April 22, 2021, 03:12:11 PM

Quote from: RandyB on April 22, 2021, 11:53:42 AM

But the dead horse hasn't been beaten nearly enough...

And it never will.

The beating of dead horses never gets old.

Making the Rubble Bounce is its own reward.

There's making the rubble bounce, which I endorse, and there's making more rubble out of the rubble because the rubble is not bouncing on its own.

Same friend whos a fan of the Hero System and has a fair amount of Hero and Champions material also has this so had a quick glance through.

First impression is that jesus christ theres alot of virtue signalling in this thing? Just at glances and stuff popping out and was not even looking for it or expecting it. Ron never struck me as a SJW type. Well that illusiions been ruthlessly dispelled. That said. Some of it does fit. The rest very does not.

That said theres some fair research and thought put into the book. This is not just some vanity project and at a guess Ron got the position by showing off what he knew or the ideas he had.

He actually gives some good advice that backgrounds are not that important and can be fleshed out later. Its the character here and now that often counts most. It is very similar to the advice I give in my books. Keep it simple at first and flesh it out as you go as needed. (unless of course you really like writing these things up. Then go to town!)

System-wise seems fairly along the Champions system far as can tell. I had to stop about half way through but looks like alot of thoughts on the genre. Some more than a bit off the mark. But at least he states clearly how he is approaching each element. Copious examples throughout which is a boon to anyone new to a system and wanting to see how its done.

Lots and lots of advice on how to create a character. Some of it a bit... odd. But a fair portion would be familliar to anyone who has played superhero RPGs like TSR's Marvel Superheroes which gives some similar frameworks.

Thats the impressions at a glance.

One thing of note. The book is big. But so is the font. This book is not a strain to read. But if you formatted it to older fonts and spacings I think it would clock in at about somewhere between 150 and 75 pages possibly.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on April 22, 2021, 04:22:48 AM

Quote from: Aglondir on April 21, 2021, 09:48:45 PM
Can you tell us who? And any details about the original idea?

Michael Surbrook. I spoke to him at a Q&A on Discord.

He didn't give details of what the original idea would be. And I didn't press the matter,

He said the HERO System is dead to him now. And I just wished him good luck.

My guess was either Surbrook or Heimforth, with Steve Long as a distant 3rd. Definitely a loss for DOJ but also a loss for the Hero community.

Hero is sadly dead. Their online store is a joke, they are selling full-price PDFs while offering no previews or even page counts to give an indication of what you're buying. WTF?

My impression is that Steve Long has always been a stand-up guy, but everyone else involved in the company well...they don't inspire confidence.

It's 2021, the last gasp was Champions Complete and that was released in 2012. Nine years ago.

RIP, it will always be a great game and one of the pillars from the first decade of RPG design but it's a historical artifact at this point.

Quote from: RandyB on April 22, 2021, 03:17:06 PM
...
There's making the rubble bounce, which I endorse, and there's making more rubble out of the rubble because the rubble is not bouncing on its own.

Salting the earth, grinding their houses to dust, and placing curses upon their progeny also never gets old.

The rubble bouncing will continue until morale improves.

No reason to give the current hero games even a glimpse of daylight.

Quote from: Jaeger on April 23, 2021, 01:43:26 PM

Quote from: RandyB on April 22, 2021, 03:17:06 PM
...
There's making the rubble bounce, which I endorse, and there's making more rubble out of the rubble because the rubble is not bouncing on its own.

Salting the earth, grinding their houses to dust, and placing curses upon their progeny also never gets old.

The rubble bouncing will continue until morale improves.

No reason to give the current hero games even a glimpse of daylight.

I walked away from Hero over a decade ago. Key phrase being "walked away".

They are doing more damage to themselves than any of us can inflict. And I've reached the point of having better things to do with my gaming time and Internet time than obsess over the corpse of an old friend, no matter how once-beloved.

Quote from: RandyB on April 23, 2021, 02:10:46 PM
I walked away from Hero over a decade ago. Key phrase being "walked away".

They are doing more damage to themselves than any of us can inflict. And I've reached the point of having better things to do with my gaming time and Internet time than obsess over the corpse of an old friend, no matter how once-beloved.

I don't.

Typing out a one or two sentence missive, and clicking on 'post' to kick HERO's dead donkey once again is no trouble at all.

In replying to your posts, I have been given the opportunity and pleasure of spitting* on their rotting corpse 3 more times.

Thank you.




*edit: ( I don't want people to get the wrong idea and assume that I would spit on the rotting corpse of hero games if it was on fire. That is what Gasoline and Marshmallows are for. )

They lack of any new material beyond third party really hurt and continues to hurt Hero Games.

Though what really did much damage is the lack of any real change with 6E Hero System with no attempt to try and reach out to new players. Instead firmly wanting to cater to only their current fanbase. As well for at least I think 5 years if not more perhaps even for a decade it took the current owner(s), to reissue the core 6E set on print on demand. Imagine not being able to buy the first core book of the two part core set. So for years all they had was volume 2 for sale. Which was not going to sell well because who buy the volume 2 of a two part core set. If one was okay with PDF one could get the core yet it was kind of hard to get anyone interested when one cannot have access to the core set in print.

Like Sjgames they take every and any opportunity to miss any and every opportunity. I never saw and really huge demand for a 3E revival of 3E Champions. I did and still see interest in 4E and later. Many wanted if not rules light less crunch and complexity. Again like the fanbase for Gurps they want to lament the fact they cannot find GMs and/or players for games using the Hero System. Yet Hero Games better not change anything or it will kill the Hero System. As if the rpg is not already 3/4 of it's way in its grave. While also hiding behind any change and using the Sunken Cost Fallacy as a shield.

It's kind of sad to see yet absolute no sympathy on my part. Not any longer either for the fans of Hero System, Gurps, Harn or other similar rpg companies who refuse to try anything new and insist on wanting to cather to niche group of players who get smaller and smaller.

They should have stuck with what they had instead of knowingly killing themselves on the edition treadmill. Or whomever now controls the IP as at one point it changed hands and I believe changed hands again? Whomever thought the damn "five year plan" was a winner shot themselves and have only themselves to blame.

It reminds me of a certain famous and pedigreed game company that languished under its latter-day management for a decade or more until the founders stepped in and fixed things up. While it was doing nothing and letting its IP rot, the peanut gallery could only surmise that something was wrong, without knowing what or how bad it was. Turns out it was very bad.

I suspect the same is true for DOJ Hero Games - the individuals responsible (and Steve Long is not one of them, as a minority owner) almost certainly have shall we say, significant character flaws, it's just that these facts are not in the public domain. The simple and most charitable explanation could be that they are doing other things with their lives and Hero Games now occupies a negligable part of their time and attention, so it withers on the vine. Likely, it's worse.