Quote from: Brander;883304I think it would be interesting if Siembeda published the system he uses to play the game, which I understand is a rather modified version of what he puts in the books.  Though perhaps this is just a rumor.

From what I understand, Kevin is big time Rule Zero (although I doubt he has ever referred to it as such), and the games he runs are less about rules and dice rolling, and more about players explaining what their character is doing. I would love to go to the Open House sometime and play in one of his games just for the experience. I imagine my style, having started GMing with Palladium, is a little bit similar.

In the Rifts GM Guide, he gives a "quick and dirty" set of rules for modern combat, explaining that the regular modern combat rules were created to simulate actual combat, which doesn't really go with the rest of the game all that well. I always applied modifiers as a GM for things I thought deserved it, like shooting at moving targets or long distance shooting in high wind, or if a target has partial cover, etc. These were later given official rulings, but that was after I stopped running Palladium.

I never really thought there was an issue with Palladium's rules until I went on the internet and read all the hate. Mostly from people who never actually played, or who described the "rules," used which were very obviously not RAW, but crappy GM fiat.

What I would change? The skill system as presented by OCC. One of the biggest annoyances of character creation is flipping through the book to get skill percentages. The OCCs list the available skills, with bonuses. Why not list the skill with the percentage? Then you can just write it down and move on.
Like Pundit, I would make all skills have the same base percentage, and increase by the same amount. However, I would (and have in the past) track which skills are actually used and only those skills increase when leveling up.

Quote from: Certified;88332414, the perfect age for Rifts. This cover art still appeals to 14 year old me and my Iron Maiden album art collection.

Yeah, Iron Maiden, too, was part of that heady mix. Blaze Bayley years, but hey, you gotta play the hand life deals you.

Quote from: The Butcher;883718Yeah, Iron Maiden, too, was part of that heady mix. Blaze Bayley years, but hey, you gotta play the hand life deals you.

You were 14 in '94?

Oh Mitra, have mercy on the old and decrepit.  

Quote from: The Butcher;883718Yeah, Iron Maiden, too, was part of that heady mix. Blaze Bayley years, but hey, you gotta play the hand life deals you.

Blaze who now?

Quote from: CRKrueger;883733You were 14 in '94?

Oh Mitra, have mercy on the old and decrepit.  

Hey! They weren't the only one! However, I DO feel old and decrepit some times.

I think Butcher and I were in the sweet spot of the Palladium era. For me, my choices were wargaming (I still play Battletech, actually), Vampire (no), and AD&D. I didn't like playing with the AD&D crowd that I knew, and being a shitty little punk, I had to be different. I was into TMNT comics (and the cartoon when I was a little kid) and Robotech, so that was my gateway.

I think that was the best time to get into Palladium. KS was at his peak creatively and production-wise. Multiple game lines were getting supported. It was like they were putting out a book every week for at least one line. And 14 year old me bought as many of them as I could!

Please keep in mind, I played Palladium games A LOT when I was younger. I still love the setting for Rifts, but the system...ack, no.

*cracks knuckles*

*Magic: Use a system like Shadowrun, where spells drain the caster and the caster can try to resist it. Sure, you might be able to throw powerful fireballs all day...and you might get wiped out the first time you try to turn invisible (not likely but it COULD happen).

*Combat-Damage: Get rid of separate hit and damage rolls. Weapons do X damage, better if you hit better (there are systems where your margin of success directly translates to better damage. I like this)

*Combat-Hitting things: Make the combat skills actually mean something. If someone decides to devote a lot of skill points to their skill with a sword, or pistol, or energy rifle, let them. Redo (better yet, eliminate) the critical damage/fumble rules. As it is, a character who's a combat monster has....a 5% (maybe 10%, 15%, whatever, if they crit on a natural 19+, 18+) chance of a critical hit. And a 5% chance of fumbling. A fresh-off-the-factory-floor CS soldier, mutant turtle, fantasy fighter, whatever, has...a 5% chance of getting a crit and a 5% chance of fumbling. Really? This is another reason I like margin-based systems.

*Level system: Get rid of it.

Assign X number of skill points at character creation. You want 20 skills at a rating of 1, that's your business. Sure, there's a lot you can do...you just can't do ANYTHING well. Conversely, if you want to be a one-trick-pony and put all 20 points into Laser Rifles and Sneaking, OK, great, guess we'll see how that works out for you. Good luck (and I truly mean that).

Give XP, karma, whatever, for various tasks during the adventure. The players use these points to improve their characters. Your Strength sucks? Use double the new rating XP/karma/SuckaPoints to raise it.

*No more HP/level. A character's ability to withstand damage is directly related to how tough they are. Want to be able to take a direct blast from a shotgun at point blank range and laugh? (Not in my games you won't, but that's a different story) Invest heavily into Body/Toughness/Endurance/Strength/BulletSoak.

*Mega-Damage: No more of this "armor takes so many hits and you're completely fine, then suddenly you're vaporized". Armor can stop X amount of damage, based on it's capacity, per hit. Anything higher gets thru. The armor DID manage to mitigate the damage, though, so the wearer takes damage at a 1:1 ratio, scaling from MDC/SDC (or whatever system you want to use. HP, Wound Levels, you name it). If you're an unarmored human (or other soft creature) and get hit by a MD weapon, it does 3X the normal damage (in most Wound Level systems this will probably cause at least a moderate wound). Many MD weapons will still do enough to turn the target into a pile of bloody squish, but at least this way you're not toast after a single hit with a vibro-blade or laser pistol. Probably.

*Damage-All Hits Are The Same: Ugh. No. Granted, most shooters are taught to shoot center of mass. But that doesn't necessarily mean all bullets hit center of mass. And a hit to an extremity shouldn't merely shave 6 SDC/HP off the target. Make it MEAN something. You know, like, maybe they don't run so well, or maybe they can't target you quite so well with that 20+ pound belt-fed machinegun they're toting? A great hit with a sword shouldn't do just 2x normal damage, especially if the player said "I'm going to cut his arm off at the elbow".

*Energy weapons, especially lasers, dump their energy real quick when they hit something. Make cover actually MEAN something again.

*Railguns penetrate cover, barriers, armor, etc, better than energy weapons. The way the Palladium system currently is, the only reason to use a railgun is if you want the drama of potentially running out of ammo in the middle of a firefight. They are heavy, loud, use a potentially dangerous power source, and have a finite ammo source, but at least the damage they deal sucks!

*Automatic weapons fire (ESPECIALLY railguns): The burst rules are horrible. I've fired a decent amount of full auto in my life, with everything from 9mm and .45 ACP subguns to belt-fed, tripod-mounted machineguns. You honestly going to tell me that a 200 round belt from an M249 will hit with just as many rounds as a 100 round belt from an M240, regardless of range, regardless of how each is mounted (vehicle or tripod mount vs firing it like a rifle), AND it will take 15 seconds to fire the belt? Both of these weapons have a cyclic rate of fire of almost 20 rounds per second, if you don't mind burning the barrel to nothing and hitting a lot of sky. Not to mention that an 8 year old will hit with the same amount of rounds from his burst as a guy I knew who actually could pick up the M240 and fire it like a rifle, from his shoulder, if both combatants have AK's?

*Damage causes no effects until death/machine shutdown: *headdesk**headdesk**headdesk* No. Just no. At the very least, there should be a penalty like Shadowrun has (prior to 4th Edition, anyway...I haven't looked at 4th or 5th much) to any actions after you're wounded.

As for vehicles, sure, lasers and plasma cannons should melt some of the armor off, railguns chew it up, etc. I can dig that.

But what about a shot that does, say, 50% of the vehicle's damage capacity? Shouldn't that also penetrate and smash radios, hit passengers/crew, maybe even have a chance of cooking off ammo, fuel (in a liquid fuel vehicle), or *gasp* hitting the reactor of a nuclear powered vehicle?

This is one reason I like the various editions of Twilight: 2000. I'm sure there are other games that have the same kind of thing, where vehicles have X armor and a shot that does damage > X can do all kinds of interesting things.

*Dodge: No, no, no, no, no. In hand to hand combat, OK, I'll buy it. Against energy weapons or even chemical-based slug throwers? Nope. Not even a juicer or crazy is going to dodge a laser blast. The shooter pulls the trigger, the target is hit. All the potential victim can do is make himself harder to hit, by running perpendicular to the shooter's aim, by dropping to the ground, by ducking behind a handy rock, log, whatever. If the shooter overcomes all that and scores a hit, well, you're hit. Want to not get hit? Declare that you're evading BEFORE you're attacked (and that is your action, evading), roll, add whatever to the target number of anyone trying to hit you. I think 1st edition Star Wars did that, but it's been a lot of years since I played it, so I don't remember. There have to have been other systems that did it the same way, I just can't think of any immediately.

Yes, most of my changes add complexity. Sue me. I have nothing against a certain level of complexity if it means more realism (at least, as far as 'realism' goes in the case of these games).

I used to really like Palladium games. I still like the ideas they come up with, just wish they'd use a better system.

If I can ever find a group, AND they're willing to experiment, I've been kicking around the idea of using the Rifts setting with a blend of the mechanics from Twilight: 2013 and Shadowrun.

Its true. All of Palladium's games are made for 14 year olds and your inner-14-year-old.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;881989What it says on the tin. This might take awhile and you might get dirty so don't wear any nice clothes. Shut the garage door and let the wife and kids know you are not to be disturbed for the day. Beer might help.

The hard part: Keep it as backwards-compatible as possible so characters and books from previous editions don't become compost.

Aw, Bullwinkle, that trick NEVER works!

JG

Quote from: CRKrueger;883733You were 14 in '94?

Oh Mitra, have mercy on the old and decrepit.  

Indeed I was. Were it not for Rifts and the D&D Rules Cyclopedia I might be in the White Wolf forums right now.

Quote from: The Butcher;883873Indeed I was. Were it not for Rifts and the D&D Rules Cyclopedia I might be in the White Wolf forums right now.

If the White Wolf audience was the same ones from the 90's I'd be right there with ya.

Quote from: merc;883748*Dodge: No, no, no, no, no. In hand to hand combat, OK, I'll buy it. Against energy weapons or even chemical-based slug throwers? Nope. Not even a juicer or crazy is going to dodge a laser blast. The shooter pulls the trigger, the target is hit. All the potential victim can do is make himself harder to hit, by running perpendicular to the shooter's aim, by dropping to the ground, by ducking behind a handy rock, log, whatever. If the shooter overcomes all that and scores a hit, well, you're hit. Want to not get hit? Declare that you're evading BEFORE you're attacked (and that is your action, evading), roll, add whatever to the target number of anyone trying to hit you. I think 1st edition Star Wars did that, but it's been a lot of years since I played it, so I don't remember. There have to have been other systems that did it the same way, I just can't think of any immediately.

I agree with almost everything you say, but there's another way to look at Dodge.
A guy I played with the 80's was a Marine and he demonstrated the Palladium dodge like this:
Using a broomstick as a rubber-band rifle, he swept the muzzle the table's way.  Of course, people moved out of the way.  You're not dodging the bullet, you're trying to get out of way of the line of fire.  You're moving where the muzzle is not pointing.
He did it again at maybe 3/4 speed.  It was easier to dodge.  That's a trained warrior riding the effects of adrenaline, the "everything in slow motion" effect.
He did it one last time at maybe 1/5 speed.  Extremely easy to dodge.  That's a Juicer or Crazy or even Cyberknight with altered levels of perception.

Lots of stuff I don't like about the system, Juicer dodge makes sense to me.

Quote from: James Gillen;883763Aw, Bullwinkle, that trick NEVER works!

JG

Why?

Personally, my SDC/HP changes (which a lot of other people here seem to have come up on their own as well) doesn't break most of the other 'editions' of Palladium's system.

Some of the other skill changes don't change the system much either.

Quote from: CRKrueger;883886I agree with almost everything you say, but there's another way to look at Dodge.
A guy I played with the 80's was a Marine and he demonstrated the Palladium dodge like this:
Using a broomstick as a rubber-band rifle, he swept the muzzle the table's way.  Of course, people moved out of the way.  You're not dodging the bullet, you're trying to get out of way of the line of fire.  You're moving where the muzzle is not pointing.
He did it again at maybe 3/4 speed.  It was easier to dodge.  That's a trained warrior riding the effects of adrenaline, the "everything in slow motion" effect.
He did it one last time at maybe 1/5 speed.  Extremely easy to dodge.  That's a Juicer or Crazy or even Cyberknight with altered levels of perception.

Lots of stuff I don't like about the system, Juicer dodge makes sense to me.

IF, and that's a major *IF*, the shooter is in the same room with the juicer, I could maybe see it. In that instance, damn near anyone in the room, augmented or not, could attempt to dodge. And they all probably should.

Except they're not really dodging, individually, because until he stops and points at someone, they don't know who he's going to shoot, so chances are EVERYONE is going to duck behind something (someone) that will at least block the shooter's line of sight, making them harder to hit.

And if he's already pointing, and the intended victim knows damn well who's going to get shot, the only indication they'll have that an attack is coming is if they're watching the shooter's trigger finger. Not the easiest thing to do, when the weapon is pointed at you instead of safely somewhere else.

But Palladium allows a dodge against attacks from energy weapons/firearms/whatever that are hundreds of meters from the intended target.

This is just one of many glaring problems with their system. The advantage of the system is, it's pretty easy to learn and understand. The (chief) disadvantage is, it's pretty damn unrealistic. Maybe if you want to play some comic book fun roleplaying. But if that's the case, aren't there systems out there that are better suited to that? I was never one for super hero anything, so I never got in to the super hero games.

Oh, one more thing to fix about Palladium: their stupid alignments. I'm not a fan of alignment anyway, but if you're going to do it, there are much better ways. I like the way D&D/Pathfinder do it, with good/evil and law/chaos (and the "I Don't Care Party", neutral). I'm sure there is someone who does it even better but there are plenty of systems I've never experienced so I can't name one.

Quote from: CRKrueger;883884If the White Wolf audience was the same ones from the 90's I'd be right there with ya.

The audience's changed? How so?

Quote from: merc;883960Oh, one more thing to fix about Palladium: their stupid alignments. I'm not a fan of alignment anyway, but if you're going to do it, there are much better ways. I like the way D&D/Pathfinder do it, with good/evil and law/chaos (and the "I Don't Care Party", neutral). I'm sure there is someone who does it even better but there are plenty of systems I've never experienced so I can't name one.

Why do you want to use the D&D 3.X/Pathfinder's alignments system?