TheRPGSite

Hello folks,

I've never been especially interested in Rolemaster, but I saw a copy of the 2nd edition box set (the one with the blue border and the wolf bursting through the door) going cheap so I snatched it up, and I'm actually getting into it.

So, which supplements are good for it? Preferably pre-Standard System stuff, since I understand that the Standard System is where the rules got really bloated.

(I also own Gamemaster Law, Nightmares of Mine and ...And A 10-Foot Pole, which I bought previously because I heard they were useful for non-Rolemaster games.)

I went on a 2nd edition buying frenzy when i first got the game years and years ago. The companions add a hell of a lot of new rules and different ways to implement existing ones. I pretty much ignored the rules in the companions. I got them for the new professions and spell lists. It might not be your bag, but i think my favourite is actually the Alchemy Companion. Bloody great if you're into alchemists. It gives you lots of variant alchemists, from Golem builders to pharmacy makers to fortress protectors and loads more.

The first and second companions are really good. The second is a vast improvement on the skills system. After that the companions become kinda hit or miss. IIRC you can get the pdfs pretty cheap, so they may still be worth a buy, but I wouldn't pay shelf price for them.

Creatures and Treasures is practically a must. Creatures and Treasures 2 is also good.

Treasures of Middle Earth is filled to the brim with cool magical goodies.

The setting books / adventures are really good. Alsthough they're called adventures they're really just layouts of an area of the world, whose doing what there, and a few short adventure outlines to kick you off.

IMO, not a thing.

RPGPundit

ICE is currently releasing edited and updated versions of the 2nd edition materials.  You might check out their website to see what is currently available.

Quote from: Tom BICE is currently releasing edited and updated versions of the 2nd edition materials.  You might check out their website to see what is currently available.

The updated version of 2e is called Rolemaster Classic (RMC).  So far, it is excellent (it presents the rules in a very clear manner).  Substantively, it is essentially 2e, with a few needed fixes.  

One good thing about RMC is that it clearly identifies the optional rules, and adds some new ones.  Some of them can really improve the game.

IMO, RMC is crunchy enough to run as is, without any of the supplementary bloat found in the old 'Companions'.

Quote from: RPGPunditIMO, not a thing.

RPGPundit

then you never read their Black Ops and Pulp Adventures books, two best books ever writen in the gaming industry on those particular topics.

Anyhow, I love RMSS and RM2 and RMC are okay I suppose if you can't handle the real deal.  RMSS is a much better put together game, even if character generation is a bit much at first.  Later you'll learn to love the flexibility and fine control it gives you but not so much the first time you try it.

So I'd Get RMSS, Spell Law, Arms Law, and Creatures and Treasures.  Then I'd get Space Master Privateers, Future Law, and all three Tech Law books.  Blaster Law is a good addition as well.  Generally I'd steer clear of the companions because you really need to know the system before messing with that stuff.

Quote from: AkrasiaThe updated version of 2e is called Rolemaster Classic (RMC).  So far, it is excellent (it presents the rules in a very clear manner).  Substantively, it is essentially 2e, with a few needed fixes.

Is there one of those handy fan-compiled list of differences between the two somewhere? I've been holding off on getting RMC because I've already got everything I need (and most of what I want) for RM2, but a chance to see the improvements might change that.

Quote from: RPGPunditIMO, not a thing.

RPGPundit

So why did you even post?  

Anyways I would back up suggestions for Creatures and Treasures.  The first couple of companions are pretty good as well.  You may want to look at the various setting books that fall into the game genre you want to run.

I would try and track down the GM screen also.  It was really valuable when I ran the game, having a small book off all the weapon and crit charts in one place and everything else on the screen.  Really handy.

Whether or not you're a RM fan, you seriously need to check out ...And A 10-Foot Pole (http://store.ironcrown.com/detail.jsp?itemId=2022&category=10099), likely the best item/treasure/price book ever written.  I love when my players ask me to find a price for something in there, disbelieving they'd have it, and I find it.  Plus, it covers prices and availability for different periods, including the Stone Age, Middle Ages, Age of Reason, etc.  I use it, along with Palladium's Weapons & Armor, in any fantasy campaign I'm in.

Quote from: James McMurrayThe first and second companions are really good. The second is a vast improvement on the skills system...

I used to share this opinion re. the second companion skill system (during the 1980s).  But it really does change the nature of the game, and, honestly, if you want such a system, you may as well go all the way to RMSS.

IMO, it's best to stick with the core basic skill system (+ optional secondary skill system).  But that's simply because I can't be bothered with overly crunchy systems these days (and yes, I do find RMC to be not especially crunchy if restricted to the 'core').

:cool:

For bog standard fantasy (i.e. D&D but with crits and 75th level spells) I find the core books plus one or two items swiped from the first 2 companions to be quite sufficient.  And Creatures & Treasures 1, of course.  C&T 2 is not necessary but it is totally awesome.  It's kinda the Fiend Folio of Rolemaster.

I'm very fond of Monte Cook's Dark Space setting book, a Cthulhuesqe science fantasy setting, but I'd probably want both Spacemaster and Rolemaster to make that work.

Quote from: AkrasiaI used to share this opinion re. the second companion skill system (during the 1980s).  But it really does change the nature of the game, and, honestly, if you want such a system, you may as well go all the way to RMSS.

I thought RMSS went too far. the companion seemed to me to be an elegant system with plenty of crunch but not too much. RMSS went over the top.

Nice avatar by the way. I can start thinking of you as male again. :) No matter what I may know someone's gender to be, if there's a picture of a guy or a girl in their avatar that's what I think of.

Quote from: James McMurrayNice avatar by the way. I can start thinking of you as male again. :) No matter what I may know someone's gender to be, if there's a picture of a guy or a girl in their avatar that's what I think of.

I spent months thinking Akrasia was a girl due to his avatar. :haw:

Quote from: Jason CoplenI spent months thinking Akrasia was a girl due to his avatar. :haw:

So you guys think jrients is a robot?  ;)

Quote from: AkrasiaSo you guys think jrients is a robot?  ;)

What?   You think he isn't....?

Quote from: AkrasiaSo you guys think jrients is a robot?  ;)

Of course not. It's obvious that jrients is a Robot Wizard. You gotta be specific about these things or you'll be turned into a Lite Brite picture of a toad.

Sheesh!

The first two editions of Rolemaster were the best. Stay away from RMSS. I haven't seen the new classic books, but considering that they are just reorganizing 2nd edition rules, they probably aren't bad.

All you really need to play are the three basic books (Character/Campaign Law, Arms Law, Spell Law) plus Creatures and Treasures.

RMC 1 and 2 had some interesting alternate classes, but I wouldn't use any of the other optional rules like the alternate skill system. These extra classes are purely optional and add a little variety. They are in no way indispensable.

Some of the new books aren't too bad for use with RM2. The RMSS Spell Law has some decent additions to lots of spell lists, as well as new lists.

Sigh, all the RMSS haters, we'll wind up with a watered down Advanced HARP at this rate.

Yes there are some places where RMSS could have been better, like making skill categories optional.  It's not really hard to do, just treat every skill as having the Combined progression and be done with it.

But going back to stat gains on a chart?  potential stats on a chart? % ten times for stats?  Spell list block purchase rolls?  Development points based onthat ridiculous chart that even unbalances things more for the guy with good rolls?  The massive skill list with each skill having its own cost and stat bonuses?  Averaging stat bonuses?  No training packages?  No culture packages?  No talents?  No flaws?

Nope I'm sorry, RM2 character creation isn't even faster than RMSS character creation.

It seems to me the one that you're used to is the one that is faster. I know I could make ten RM2 characters in the time it would take me to make one RMSS.

That I can accept.  I'll even throw in the cavet that I'm not a believer in working out the bonuses for all the skill categories (just the ones you've got), bothering with encumbrance much (I just warn them that I will if they try carrying too much), exhaustion points (which really boil down to, if you move at a dash you won't be moving much afterwards anyhow), heck, I even play pretty fast and loose with equipment and supplies, since I generally have them provided by patrons rather than handing out lots of cash rewards.

I suspect the real problem is the same problem that every ultimate edition be it GURPS 4th, HERO 5th, Talaslantia, or Rolemaster runs into.

The edition with everything is essentially unapprochable and unusable for a beginner.

Rolemaster frp was a good step in the right direction but it needed to streamline a few more things like the skill category system and the turn sequence.

I love both of those but to a beginner they look pretty damn scary.

I can't say that I actually like Rolemaster, but I loved its red-headed stepchild, MERP (Middle Earth Role-Playing). Same basic confusing system, but reduced down to a manageable scale, plus some great artwork.

Quote from: David JohansenI love both of those but to a beginner they look pretty damn scary.

I'm a beginner, I have them, and they sure look scary. :D

That said, if I could find a competent GM, I'd play. I can see how good this game is. I just don't have the time or energy to acquire that competence myself... twenty years ago would have been a different story... sigh.

Quote from: jeff37923I can't say that I actually like Rolemaster, but I loved its red-headed stepchild, MERP (Middle Earth Role-Playing). Same basic confusing system, but reduced down to a manageable scale, plus some great artwork.

I love MERP too!  :D  

A MERP/RM2e hybrid is actually my preferred ICE system (character creation and NPC combat charts from MERP; PC and 'important' NPC spells and combat charts from RM SL and AL; plus C&T).

(As an aside, I'm not sure why you refer to MERP as RM's 'red-headed stepchild', as MERP was actually more popular than RM during the glory days of ICE in the 1980s and early 1990s.)

Quote from: Akrasia(As an aside, I'm not sure why you refer to MERP as RM's 'red-headed stepchild', as MERP was actually more popular than RM during the glory days of ICE in the 1980s and early 1990s.)

The main book was red.

See MERP doesn't have enough charts to be simple.  I know that sounds counter intuitive, but the crits get old in a hurry and flipping back and forth between charts to figure out weapon modifiers drives me nuts.

Even so, skill categories aren't really all that scary.

Things to remember:

Most skills are standard progression. 3 points per rank for the first ten ranks.

All categories you can buy ranks for are 2 points per rank for the first ten ranks.

Combat Manoeuvres, Crafts, Specialized Sciences, Professional and Vocational skills are all pretty self contained.  No category ranks are purchased and the skill ranks improve by 5 points per rank for the first ten.

Spell Lists, Alertness, and Sense Ambush only progress 1 point per rank.

Body Development and Power Point Development have a racial progression rate.

Personally I'd have just given everything except Body Development and Power Point Development a Standard category and Skill Split, since a craft like cooking actually has subdisciplines as does a science like Advanced Mathematics.  Spacemaster Privateers was somewhat schitzophrenic about whether it was trying to clean this up or make it worse.

Your bonus for each skill is figured by totalling

Category Rank Bonus
Profession Bonus
3 Stat Bonuses per Category
Any Category Special Bonuses

Skill Rank Bonus
Item Bonus
Any Skill Special Bonuses

Not really bad at all.  But unless you're using a spreadsheet, I'd advise not bothering to total minor skills like cooking or shoe repair until you actually use them in play.  Totalling the occasional bonus in play just doesn't slow things down as much as totalling all the bonuses before play does.

The worst thing is keeping track of which skills came out of which categories and searching the list of some 600 skills is just a very slow way of going about it and the main cause of confusion and terror among beginners.  Especially when you're trying to decide if that was a Science / Analytic Technical or a Tech. / Trade Vocational skill where the distinction between the categories is obviously a bit fuzzy.  (a hold over from SPAM trying to be 100% RMSS compatible)

School of Hard Knocks comes in handy at times just because it's an alphabetical listing of the skills instead of a listing by category.

MERP was frickin' awesome.  I was just paging through one of my copies last night, thinking of all the good times my high school group had with our one short MERP campaign back in the day.

Don't say things like that, cruel man. You know how much some of the MERP books are fetching on ebay? I'm staying the hell away from that game because I know me: I buy one supplement, I want ALL THE OTHERS too.

I never played MERP. I discovered it after we'd already picked up Rolemaster and never got a chance. I do own a bunch of the books though, for use as RM supplements. the game definitely looks like a blast.

Quote from: James McMurrayOf course not. It's obvious that jrients is a Robot Wizard. You gotta be specific about these things or you'll be turned into a Lite Brite picture of a toad.

Sheesh!

Well I am a Vampire Pacman see
(http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/image.php?u=3032&dateline=1178823802)

Quote from: James McMurrayIs there one of those handy fan-compiled list of differences between the two somewhere? I've been holding off on getting RMC because I've already got everything I need (and most of what I want) for RM2, but a chance to see the improvements might change that.

This is the best I could find:

http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=4106.msg57029#msg57029

I don't know any list of the new optional rules.

Thanks!

Quote from: jrientsMERP was frickin' awesome.  I was just paging through one of my copies last night, thinking of all the good times my high school group had with our one short MERP campaign back in the day.

One of my best campaigns during high school was also with MERP.  

We played it through the summer of 1986 (or maybe 1985).  I ran a 'quest for the lost palantir' campaign in the early Fourth Age (one of the suggested adventures in the back of the Rangers of the North campaign module -- it was later expanded in a full-blown campaign module by ICE).  The PCs inclouded the sons of Sam Gamgee and Eowyn.

 (EDIT: Er, one son of Sam and Rosie, another son of Faramir and Eowyn -- I didn't mean to suggest that Sam and Eowyn had a secret love child!)   :p

Good times ... :D

That doesn't sound familiar, but sounds like something I'd love to run. Do you remember what the campaign was called?

Quote from: James McMurrayThat doesn't sound familiar, but sounds like something I'd love to run. Do you remember what the campaign was called?

Strangely enough, it was called Palantir Quest. :cool:

Lots more info here:
http://www.icewebring.com/ICE_Products/M2/M2_2009_Palantir_Quest.php

Quote from: AkrasiaStrangely enough, it was called Palantir Quest. :cool:

Lots more info here:
http://www.icewebring.com/ICE_Products/M2/M2_2009_Palantir_Quest.php

Ooh, I remember that one. One of the best MERP adventures published.

I don't know about the legality of it, but merp.com had virtually every MERP product ever published available for free download. Might be worth checking out if you're looking for some OOP MERP stuff.

Thanks for this thread. I'm picking up a fat stack of RMSS this coming payday (and possibly one of those limited edition RM2 compilations).

Quote from: jdrakehThanks for this thread. I'm picking up a fat stack of RMSS this coming payday (and possibly one of those limited edition RM2 compilations).

Noooooo...

Stick with RM Classic or RM2.

Well, whichever direction you go in, check out ICE's website if you haven't already - they usually have decent deals on bundles for their various games.

And good luck!

Quote from: jdrakehThanks for this thread. I'm picking up a fat stack of RMSS this coming payday (and possibly one of those limited edition RM2 compilations).

Let us know how you're doing with it. I'm in the same boat--I have a bunch of RMFRPG stuff, and am too scared too look at it.

Then again, I'm trying to teach myself Rifts, so what is my problem?

Quote from: GoOrangeNoooooo...

Stick with RM Classic or RM2.

Well, the thing is, RMC isn't nearly complete as of the present time (Creatures & Treasures is still forthcoming) and the only version of RM2 available from ICE at the present time is the ultra-expensive Limited Edition leatherbound (though, as I've said, I'm considering this latter purchase). Aside from this, I have three other reasons for leaning toward RMSS:

1. I understand that it's the best organized version of Rolemaster.
2. I know that it's the most flexible version of Rolemaster.
3. David Johansen likes it.

Three is probably the biggest factor (no kidding). You see, I've never not liked any game that David has recommended and/or praised. This being the case, he's kind of my 'go to guy' for opinions on games (or editions of games) that I personally have little experience with. If David signs off on a given game, I typically make it a point to pick up that product.

:D

shit man, I dunno what to say...

Quote from: GoOrangeOoh, I remember that one. One of the best MERP adventures published.

I don't know about the legality of it, but merp.com had virtually every MERP product ever published available for free download. Might be worth checking out if you're looking for some OOP MERP stuff.

The Legal Notices part of their website details a cease and desist letter chain from Tolkien Enterprises that forced them to take down all their ICE MERP products, so I'm guessing it wasn't quite legal. :) and also :(

Quote from: jdrakehWell, the thing is, RMC isn't nearly complete as of the present time (Creatures & Treasures is still forthcoming) and the only version of RM2 available from ICE at the present time is the ultra-expensive Limited Edition leatherbound (though, as I've said, I'm considering this latter purchase). Aside from this, I have three other reasons for leaning toward RMSS:

1. I understand that it's the best organized version of Rolemaster.
2. I know that it's the most flexible version of Rolemaster.
3. David Johansen likes it.

David Johansen aside, I'd still take RMC every time. It is now complete apart from the monsters book C&T, which is a couple of months away. You can use a copy of RM2 C&T from ebay if you're in a hurry, no conversion necessary - it's the same game. And a lot of effort was made to make RMC better organised than RM2 or RMSS.

And I'm not sure what you mean about RMSS being more flexible. If your kind of flexibility is having modifiers for gargling mouthwash, then fine. But if you want a rules-medium fantasy game that can handle pretty much anything within the implied genre, then RM2/RMC will do fine.

(Disclaimer: I was part of the RMC team for a while.)

good gaming to you,
TheShadow

Quote from: The_ShadowAnd I'm not sure what you mean about RMSS being more flexible.

It's the only version of Rolemaster specifically designed to accommodate expansion into genres other than fantasy. In many ways, it's kind of like the GURPS Basic Set or HERO FRED. Other versions/editions of Rolemaster are more like Champions or GURPS World War II (i.e., powered by the same basic system, though focused on one specific genre).

As David mentioned, this has the drawback of making RMSS somewhat inaccessible to newcomers, much as HERO FRED and the GURPS Basic Set intimidate many hobby newcomers. That said, I've tackled both several editions of HERO and the GURPS Basic Set, so I don't see RMSS posing any problems for me.

Quote from: jdrakehIt's the only version of Rolemaster specifically designed to accommodate expansion into genres other than fantasy....

Well, not in the core rules.  There are non-fantasy supplements for RMSS ('Black Ops', etc.), but other genres aren't accommodated in the core rules themselves.  Which makes RMSS no different than RM2e, which also had supplements that explored other genres (e.g. 'Outlaw', 'Dark Space', 'Pirates', etc.).

Quote from: AkrasiaWell, not in the core rules.  There are non-fantasy supplements for RMSS ('Black Ops', etc.), but other genres aren't accommodated in the core rules themselves.

True, though the rules are designed with that kind of expansion in mind. I'm technically a Rolemaster 2e fan (played for years), though its genre expansions seemed that they weren't so much built on the RM2e core rules as they were different permutations of them. Despite not having played RMSS before, I have read the rule books and the genre expansions of RMSS seem to be much more integrated into (or, if you prefer, extended from) the core rule set.

Though even I'll admit that the differentiation between Science Technical, Tech Trade Vocational, and Tech Trade Professional in SPAM is a nightmare.

Quote from: GoOrangeThe first two editions of Rolemaster were the best.

And first edition had handwritten tables!