Just noticed the new Rolemaster is up on drivethru, pdf only for now but a PoD will come in a few weeks after they get a free proof read from the early adopters...
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/416633/Rolemaster-Core-Law-RMU?src=hottest_filtered
edit: to get the name of the damn game right.
I never played original Rolemaster so this new version has my interest.
No preview, so I all I can judge the book on for now is its cover. Unfortunately, the cover is truly terrible.
Wow, so much nostalgic memories popping up! I checked it out in DriveThrough, one comment mentioned that the art is "baaaad", which does not exactly
evoke interest though. Then again, the art is obviously less important than the written content. Need to ponder on this whether to yay or nay.
Quote from: RebelSky on December 03, 2022, 07:33:57 PM
I never played original Rolemaster so this new version has my interest.
Bro, you have no idea what you have missed! Hope you get a chance to rectify the miscalculation from your past! ;D
So is this just Classic repackaged? At one time I had about four different versions of Rolemaster and got rid of all of them except my old boxed set, the one compatible with Spacemaster. What is a compelling reason to purchase this? I didn't like what they did with Classic, honestly; would have preferred a simple reprint of the 1985 boxed set.
This is a pretty complete rewrite and revamp. It's pretty much not backward compatible. I was on the revision committee at first but wasn't really happy with where it was going. They did a very long playtest and rewrite so I can't really speak to where it's at now. Leaner than RMSS at any rate. RMC was by the second itteretion of ICE, this is by the third with none of the original people involved.
Quote from: Brad on December 05, 2022, 09:36:35 AM
So is this just Classic repackaged? At one time I had about four different versions of Rolemaster and got rid of all of them except my old boxed set, the one compatible with Spacemaster. What is a compelling reason to purchase this? I didn't like what they did with Classic, honestly; would have preferred a simple reprint of the 1985 boxed set.
Damned you! I read that in Thomas Sowell's voice! ;D
There's probably nothing compelling about it. The basics are the same. I'm slowly making my way through it. I never did get a ton into RoleMaster as a DM (maybe 2 sessions), but I've played it a bunch circa 1989-1993.
Quote from: David Johansen on December 05, 2022, 09:50:38 AM
This is a pretty complete rewrite and revamp. It's pretty much not backward compatible. I was on the revision committee at first but wasn't really happy with where it was going. They did a very long playtest and rewrite so I can't really speak to where it's at now. Leaner than RMSS at any rate. RMC was by the second itteretion of ICE, this is by the third with none of the original people involved.
RMSS...that is where I think it jumped the shark. I was super excited about it, got all the books, then decided it was not for me. Also, probably not interested in a game that has no connection to the original. I dunno, might check out the PDF anyway.
Quote from: Jason Coplen on December 05, 2022, 09:59:32 AM
Damned you! I read that in Thomas Sowell's voice! ;D
There's probably nothing compelling about it. The basics are the same. I'm slowly making my way through it. I never did get a ton into RoleMaster as a DM (maybe 2 sessions), but I've played it a bunch circa 1989-1993.
Dr. Sowell is who I want to be when I grow up.
I don't think I played RMSS, but then I never did ask a bunch of questions about the game. I'm more of an "how do I roll and read the dice" type of player. 1d100+mods? I got it.
Warning: the art is hilariously bad. I don't think they had an art director of any sort. I do know I keep shaking my head when seeing the art. It's awful!
We all want to be Thomas Sowell when we grow up.
Quote from: Jason Coplen on December 05, 2022, 10:20:50 AM
I don't think I played RMSS, but then I never did ask a bunch of questions about the game. I'm more of an "how do I roll and read the dice" type of player. 1d100+mods? I got it.
Warning: the art is hilariously bad. I don't think they had an art director of any sort. I do know I keep shaking my head when seeing the art. It's awful!
We all want to be Thomas Sowell when we grow up.
As much as I may have tried to deny it when I was a teenager, the art was always important to me. I don't like this cover much (it actually seems to pander to teenagers more than the 80s versions), and if the internal art is bad too, and there's not much improvement to the rules, then I think I'll definitely pass on this. Interesting that RM is still around though.
Having only played a little MERP when I was younger - what does RM bring to the table (this version esp.) vs. other RPG's?
https://scontent.fden3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/317841615_128334193402138_9107920789628809390_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=zdss2IV8B2cAX_YK-Yd&_nc_ht=scontent.fden3-1.fna&oh=00_AfChdtpxfC02pNI_IPZcz5cl0OhXNa9EELcwInJ0T02ItA&oe=639425A6
https://scontent.fden3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/318035163_128333750068849_2257653292250023477_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=aiUulRoGxhcAX-XBsaj&_nc_oc=AQlOmBX6bgPdaMbji-aDKXxW95OvYlj_k9UfjFkJj-9O_M7GnAi9R7h1dUnHBsn38js&_nc_ht=scontent.fden3-1.fna&oh=00_AfA2ZYLTgAb95rVzsQVflMOTbKOTJ-plDGlaufOrBGg4wQ&oe=63928022
Just a quick sample of the bad art.
Greetings!
Rolemaster! YAY!
I used to love Rolemaster. I DM'd Rolemaster for many years with my Thandor campaign world. I have the original edition of Rolemaster, as well as 2nd edition. All of the booksand the Rolemaster Companions. Then, I got everything for MERP. Then, I have all the books for RMSS, which was produced in the twilight years of ICE.
I suppose Rolemaster has essentially the same problems that eventually overwhelmed D&D 3E. That doesn't really surprise me though. Before the lead designer of D&D 3E created 3E with the others, he was a major designer for many years working at ICE. Of course, Rolemaster's main problem was the precise same set of problems that eventually swallowed D&D3E--there are endless spells, many books, many, many skills, and huge rules for everything and anything. The system's actual virtues become its own vice and defeat.
Character creation is laborious, which becomes a subtle problem and challenge for the campaign over time. Dying becomes a huge hassle. Creating NPC's? Yeah, they are only slightly less of a pain to make for the DM than player characters. Eventually, I grew to yearn for a simpler, faster system. I thought D&D 3E was that system, clearly with strong roots and inspiration from Rolemaster--and yet, 3E eventually had the same problems as Rolemaster.
I loved Rolemaster. It is thorough, complete, offering rules and sub-systems for anything you can imagine. It remains special to me. Rolemaster had exotic, uber powerful magic, that had many sources, many different magic styles, and awesome spell lists that composed of spells in flavoured "Spell Lists" that each list contained 50 different spells, from level 1 through level 50 in power. Spellcasting characters of course, could learn and master multiple such "Spell Lists". Rolemaster wrote the book so to speak on Critical Charts for Combat. Weapons and teeth and claws did awesome damage on very evocative, flavourful, and deadly combat charts. Characters could advance in character class virtually to any "level". Magic spells and magic items kept pace easily with Charcter Level advancement. Rolemaster monsters also easily kept pace in level, ability, and power. Such a powerful, beautifully thorough game system!
I don't know anything about the new Rolemaster. Hard to say what it would be like. I suppose though, if you change and alter the fundamental system, is it really still Rolemaster then? If you change too much, too radically, you don't have Rolemaster. You have a different game entirely. So, it would be interesting to look at.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
What Rolemaster brings to the table is depth and the kind of play where you don't ignore a kobold with a butterknife just because you have enough hit points to take it. There's always risk and you need to play that way. At higher levels you might well perform like an anime character but one bad low open-ended roll and you could still die. Magic is, weaker but more ubiquitous than it is in D&D. Most player characters will start with a magic item or two. A spell caster can cast a fair number of spells at first level but most of them are relatively weak. There's a few like Sleep V and Jolts that can be combat winners but mostly magic-user types are going to be low key support at low levels. That's okay because they can also be reasonably competent with a weapon or two.
One thing the new version tries to do is make combat against larger and smaller targets scale up and down a little better. Which is good really though the large and super large critical tables tended to give you a chance against critters with hundreds of hit points. They also tried to balance out the classes and races better and fill in the gaps in the spell lists.
As for the art, it's not Angus McBride, Angus McBride is dead so Rolemaster art will probably never reach that height again. It's not really evocative or exciting and I'll always prefer black and white as I'm prone to actually printing stuff out.
The main reason for the new edition is to draw all the rights and ownership back into a single unit. They were a real mess after the bankrupcy. Nicholas Caldwell of ICE 3.0 has done a great deal of work regaining the books that ICE 2.0 couldn't reprint or use because they didn't own the material.
Quote from: Jason Coplen on December 05, 2022, 01:44:36 PM
(https://scontent.fden3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/317841615_128334193402138_9107920789628809390_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=zdss2IV8B2cAX_YK-Yd&_nc_ht=scontent.fden3-1.fna&oh=00_AfChdtpxfC02pNI_IPZcz5cl0OhXNa9EELcwInJ0T02ItA&oe=639425A6)
(https://scontent.fden3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/318035163_128333750068849_2257653292250023477_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=aiUulRoGxhcAX-XBsaj&_nc_oc=AQlOmBX6bgPdaMbji-aDKXxW95OvYlj_k9UfjFkJj-9O_M7GnAi9R7h1dUnHBsn38js&_nc_ht=scontent.fden3-1.fna&oh=00_AfA2ZYLTgAb95rVzsQVflMOTbKOTJ-plDGlaufOrBGg4wQ&oe=63928022)
Just a quick sample of the bad art.
Daaaaammmmmmmmmmmmmnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn...This motherfucker ain't lyin'!!!
That is just
Horrible art. Like, trying to kill any interest in the game whatsoever bad art.
Why would you do this to yourself!?
These are the images you want to invoke when people think of the Rolemaster RPG?
W.T.F.? This is IP killing stuff.
Other than as a point of mockery, I have zero interest in anything Rolemaster now. Here I was going to contribute to the discussion with some more questions about what rolemaster is like system-wise, but now?
Who gives a shit? How can they possibly charge people money for this and hold their head up straight?
Quote from: Jason Coplen on December 05, 2022, 01:44:36 PM
(https://scontent.fden3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/318035163_128333750068849_2257653292250023477_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=aiUulRoGxhcAX-XBsaj&_nc_oc=AQlOmBX6bgPdaMbji-aDKXxW95OvYlj_k9UfjFkJj-9O_M7GnAi9R7h1dUnHBsn38js&_nc_ht=scontent.fden3-1.fna&oh=00_AfA2ZYLTgAb95rVzsQVflMOTbKOTJ-plDGlaufOrBGg4wQ&oe=63928022)
Just a quick sample of the bad art.
Are these female dwarves or effeminate male-somethings? Either way, the style is also soooo cheap and bad taste.
I suspect the larger problem is bad digital coloring of black and white illustrations. But my bias is well known.
Quote from: Trond on December 05, 2022, 11:00:40 PM
Quote from: Jason Coplen on December 05, 2022, 01:44:36 PM
(https://scontent.fden3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/318035163_128333750068849_2257653292250023477_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=aiUulRoGxhcAX-XBsaj&_nc_oc=AQlOmBX6bgPdaMbji-aDKXxW95OvYlj_k9UfjFkJj-9O_M7GnAi9R7h1dUnHBsn38js&_nc_ht=scontent.fden3-1.fna&oh=00_AfA2ZYLTgAb95rVzsQVflMOTbKOTJ-plDGlaufOrBGg4wQ&oe=63928022)
Just a quick sample of the bad art.
Are these female dwarves or effeminate male-somethings? Either way, the style is also soooo cheap and bad taste.
Must be those famous critical tables:
73: A sickening crunch as your mace hits foe in arm, breaking it in at least two places. He loses 20 health and acquires a creepy adult-child.
I actually don't mind the first one quite as much (of the knight or whatever kneeling at the statue), and I thought I was picky.
I was amused and surprised to see the artist has broken cover on the Rolemaster facebook group. Supportive environment, but even so he has copped some criticism. Not nearly enough, of course.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. Holy shit.
I kinda like the first pic. The only problem is the bit at the top where it looks like someone's put their hand on top of the statue. The second one ... needs some work.
Quote from: David Johansen on December 06, 2022, 12:29:23 AM
I suspect the larger problem is bad digital coloring of black and white illustrations. But my bias is well known.
That's a pretty good point. These illustrations aren't my preference but would look mostly fine if limited to old school line art. God knows there's plenty of janky line art in older games.
The full color pass just amplifies the drawing's cartoonishness and the additional production value of full color illustration is jarring with an amateurish base. Needed a layout / designer with a better eye for this stuff.
Quote from: Mishihari on December 06, 2022, 01:07:45 PM
I kinda like the first pic. The only problem is the bit at the top where it looks like someone's put their hand on top of the statue. The second one ... needs some work.
I agree, the first one is fine as internal art (there's plenty of bad internal art in old RM books as well), though I don't like the "pixelated" look.
The second one looks like it is very much the work of a SJW, just something about the artistic choices made etc. I could be wrong.....but I don't think so :D
And of course the cover looks more finished, but still weirdly "plasticky" in my view. Reminds me a bit of Exalted actually.
So, I picked this up thinking it would be a good starting point for RM. For the RM veterans, since there's no magic or monsters books out now, are any of the legacy products somewhat compatible with this? Any idea what the differences are between Unified, Classic, and Standard or if a newbie would care? I was trying to pick up the main stuff on the ICE forums, but there's some legacy knowledge I just don't have there.
Quote from: Almost_Useless on December 06, 2022, 07:15:09 PM
So, I picked this up thinking it would be a good starting point for RM. For the RM veterans, since there's no magic or monsters books out now, are any of the legacy products somewhat compatible with this? Any idea what the differences are between Unified, Classic, and Standard or if a newbie would care? I was trying to pick up the main stuff on the ICE forums, but there's some legacy knowledge I just don't have there.
RM Classic is basically the same as 2nd ed RM (which is fairly similar to 1st ed). My impression is that Unified is yet another tweaked version of these old rules, for better or for worse, although I am not sure about this.
RM Standard was a bit different, but from mostly the same people who made the 1st and 2nd ed; Standard has more background options from the get go, different bonus calculations, weapon breakage was a bit different etc. But it was still very recognizable as RM.
All in all, though what really sets RM apart is the use of D100+bonus => look up result in tables, which can be surprisingly fun as long as you have some sort of system to find your tables (my group also always needed a calculator).
When we played MERP back in the 90s we laminated all the hit & critical tables and just had them ready for use. Made things much faster as we had multiple copies. Last year I was briefly intrigued by the idea of RMU and thinking about picking it up to run MERP. But seeing that art, I just can't.
Ideally, each player has the tables they need and everyone can work out their attack results at the same time instead of sequentially. This is why the action declaration phase is so important. It's also important to declare attack and parry before rolling initiative so player can't alter their tactics to reflect initiative order.
Quote from: Jason Coplen on December 05, 2022, 09:59:32 AM
Quote from: Brad on December 05, 2022, 09:36:35 AM
So is this just Classic repackaged? At one time I had about four different versions of Rolemaster and got rid of all of them except my old boxed set, the one compatible with Spacemaster. What is a compelling reason to purchase this? I didn't like what they did with Classic, honestly; would have preferred a simple reprint of the 1985 boxed set.
Damned you! I read that in Thomas Sowell's voice! ;D
Hahaha, that´s awesome! 8)
Quote from: Trond on December 06, 2022, 08:20:29 PM
Quote from: Almost_Useless on December 06, 2022, 07:15:09 PM
So, I picked this up thinking it would be a good starting point for RM. For the RM veterans, since there's no magic or monsters books out now, are any of the legacy products somewhat compatible with this? Any idea what the differences are between Unified, Classic, and Standard or if a newbie would care? I was trying to pick up the main stuff on the ICE forums, but there's some legacy knowledge I just don't have there.
RM Classic is basically the same as 2nd ed RM (which is fairly similar to 1st ed). My impression is that Unified is yet another tweaked version of these old rules, for better or for worse, although I am not sure about this.
RM Standard was a bit different, but from mostly the same people who made the 1st and 2nd ed; Standard has more background options from the get go, different bonus calculations, weapon breakage was a bit different etc. But it was still very recognizable as RM.
All in all, though what really sets RM apart is the use of D100+bonus => look up result in tables, which can be surprisingly fun as long as you have some sort of system to find your tables (my group also always needed a calculator).
This is actually useful info, thanks. I´v toyed with the idea of getting back to Rolemaster after the 90´s and was wondering which one to choose. Obviously the new upcoming one isn´t the one....
The main appeal for Rolemaster (and merp before it) was for me the Critical tables. Hilariously gore splattered criticals made for much more fun than 'you score 6 hit points of damage. The Orc is badly injured.' MERP/RM would have the Orc flailing about with -25 to activity losing several hits per round before collapsing and coughing up whilst drowning in its own blood.
For my teenage group (this would be for MERP and RM1 or whatever the hell its called now) it was a breath of fresh air. Downside was hand writing out a character sheet and character creation process that took an age. Not a problem now but then we were lucky if one of us had a dot matrix printer or someones' parent had access to a photocopier.
I can imagine some kind of character creation app that has you filling in the background story while churning out an instant character ready to go (including equipment, skills, spell lists and so on) would be a godsend. Also to be able to call up pinned charts for combat would be good on a screen or as others mention self print the various tables/charts required.
Old me though... I'm not really sure I can be arsed to be honest. It's easy enough to play with 1D100 and open ended rolls to watch out for but has RMs time passed? Against the Darkmaster has taken up the baton of Rolemaster Lite (a sorta Merp clone) and got a head start. If it took this long to churn out something so poor on the eye what are the other books going to look like if they ever appear?
The pages look like they are missing a parchment like background and it all looks a bit... 2007 Microsoft Word.
The Game? I'm sure it'll play ok but old me doesn't have the patience and enthusiasm of 12-13 year old me who soaked up every new game like a sponge.
ICE 3.0 has been pretty good about putting out ERA datasets for Rolemaster so character generation is easier. This will come for the new edition as well. Personally, you should always do a couple characters by hand before going to an app because you want to understand how it works and where it's coming to.
Fair confession, it takes me an hour to churn out an RMSS character by hand but I've done dozens of them. Walking a new player through it takes three to five hours so I mostly do pregens.
The system creates character with layers of depth and is pretty immersive in that sense. it really starts to shine when players have leveled up a couple times and start to think about where they want to go with things. The spell lists are nice and clear compared to any talent tree system I've ever seen.
Another thing about Rolemaster is things tend to work in a uniform way. This makes it a lot easier to handle spell effects and skill usage than many supposedly simpler games. And monsters have a reasonably short stat line instead of a quarter page or more stat block so it's much easier for the GM well at least until somebody wants to arm wrestle a dragon.
Quote from: APN on December 07, 2022, 06:16:11 AM
The main appeal for Rolemaster (and merp before it) was for me the Critical tables. Hilariously gore splattered criticals made for much more fun than 'you score 6 hit points of damage. The Orc is badly injured.' MERP/RM would have the Orc flailing about with -25 to activity losing several hits per round before collapsing and coughing up whilst drowning in its own blood.
For my teenage group (this would be for MERP and RM1 or whatever the hell its called now) it was a breath of fresh air. Downside was hand writing out a character sheet and character creation process that took an age. Not a problem now but then we were lucky if one of us had a dot matrix printer or someones' parent had access to a photocopier.
I can imagine some kind of character creation app that has you filling in the background story while churning out an instant character ready to go (including equipment, skills, spell lists and so on) would be a godsend. Also to be able to call up pinned charts for combat would be good on a screen or as others mention self print the various tables/charts required.
Old me though... I'm not really sure I can be arsed to be honest. It's easy enough to play with 1D100 and open ended rolls to watch out for but has RMs time passed? Against the Darkmaster has taken up the baton of Rolemaster Lite (a sorta Merp clone) and got a head start. If it took this long to churn out something so poor on the eye what are the other books going to look like if they ever appear?
The pages look like they are missing a parchment like background and it all looks a bit... 2007 Microsoft Word.
The Game? I'm sure it'll play ok but old me doesn't have the patience and enthusiasm of 12-13 year old me who soaked up every new game like a sponge.
Wut? I must have missed Against the Darkmaster. What's it like?
vs Darkmaster is a Merp alike (and thus RM alike) game/clone with the Tolkien stripped out and a few things cleaned up.
Website: HERE (https://www.vsdarkmaster.com/)
It was out of stock for quite a while in dead tree so I got it in pdf and print/bound it in hardback myself. I also took the opportunity to split it into several books (as others have done when they took it to a print shop) to make it easier to handle. I also use the opportunity to put my own stamp on things so made my own covers and so on. Been doing this for a while now.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jd7jxVnZ/1670431327879.jpg)
From the brief skim through I've had (too many games not enough time, usual story) I'd have thought if you ever played MERP or Rolemaster you should be able to pick this up pretty well. D100, open ended, look on charts, aim for 100+ on Move Maneuvers and all that.
Because all the Tolkien stuff is stripped out there's also rules for cooking up a big bad evil guy, the 'Darkmaster' in the title. The PDF is about £13.80 at the moment on sale (or about $15 or whatever) which is pretty good as the page count is high, art is pretty good and it's a 'one book' game. Or rather it was - there's a few bits out for it I think.
Quickstart is pay what you want (i.e. nothing) on Drive thru so might be worth a look. Here you GO (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse.php?keywords=against+the+darkmaster&x=0&y=0&author=&artist=&pfrom=&pto=).
Quote from: David Johansen on December 07, 2022, 09:27:44 AM
Fair confession, it takes me an hour to churn out an RMSS character by hand but I've done dozens of them. Walking a new player through it takes three to five hours so I mostly do pregens.
One problem with this, apart from sheer time cost, is how do you square keeping a degree of risk/lethality in play against the time invested in chargen?
Somebody who has put 2-3 hours into rolling up their guy is probably going to be pretty miffed if that character goes down in the first melee.
The lethality is over sold, I've only, ever killed one character and he was a really broken dwarf berserker with a double headed flail which really killed stuff but also made him really vulnerable and I didn't feel bad about it. Like running early low level D&D you need to put some access to healing into things. At one point there was a paladin who tried to use a warhammer to hunt a moose and lost the initiative after declaring a full attack no parry. He wound up with broken ribs and punctured lungs. "Luckily," a local druid showed up and healed him. Another time my wife's character caught an arrow to her femoral artery and bled out. The other players almost demanded that I fudge the roll, and I just smiled, a friendly travelling necromancer showed up and brought her back from the brink of death. I see it as an opportunity to introduce npcs and quests.
Most of the time the stat differential between the PCs and their foes should be enough to spare them the worst of it. But the lethality is random and things happen. And yeah, making new characters is a bitch for some and an opportunity to others.
Quote from: APN on December 07, 2022, 11:54:28 AM
vs Darkmaster is a Merp alike (and thus RM alike) game/clone with the Tolkien stripped out and a few things cleaned up.
...
Yeah, I love this book. I'm slowly making my way through it. The book is a beast....but now I may print the pdf out through lulu in smaller books. That's a great idea.
Quote from: Trond on December 05, 2022, 12:15:12 PM
As much as I may have tried to deny it when I was a teenager, the art was always important to me. I don't like this cover much (it actually seems to pander to teenagers more than the 80s versions), and if the internal art is bad too, and there's not much improvement to the rules, then I think I'll definitely pass on this. Interesting that RM is still around though.
Almost all the art is retro 1980's, so yeah it's fugly, but then that's not why I play it.
Quote from: Marchand on December 07, 2022, 01:16:26 PM
One problem with this, apart from sheer time cost, is how do you square keeping a degree of risk/lethality in play against the time invested in chargen?
Somebody who has put 2-3 hours into rolling up their guy is probably going to be pretty miffed if that character goes down in the first melee.
Exactly, this is the kind of thing that leads to fudging die rolls, and making obviously contrived situations to save PC's...
Quote from: David Johansen on December 07, 2022, 01:50:46 PM
Quote from: David Johansen on December 07, 2022, 09:27:44 AM
Fair confession, it takes me an hour to churn out an RMSS character by hand but I've done dozens of them. Walking a new player through it takes three to five hours so I mostly do pregens.
The lethality is over sold, I've only, ever killed one character and he was a really broken dwarf berserker with a double headed flail which really killed stuff but also made him really vulnerable and I didn't feel bad about it. Like running early low level D&D you need to put some access to healing into things. At one point there was a paladin who tried to use a warhammer to hunt a moose and lost the initiative after declaring a full attack no parry. He wound up with broken ribs and punctured lungs. "Luckily," a local druid showed up and healed him. Another time my wife's character caught an arrow to her femoral artery and bled out. The other players almost demanded that I fudge the roll, and I just smiled, a friendly travelling necromancer showed up and brought her back from the brink of death. I see it as an opportunity to introduce npcs and quests.
Most of the time the stat differential between the PCs and their foes should be enough to spare them the worst of it. But the lethality is random and things happen. And yeah, making new characters is a bitch for some and an opportunity to others.
Q.E.D.
So....is Against the Dark Master worth getting or should I just use MERP and use all my sourcebooks? What's the compelling reason to use it?
Serious questions here. I was going to start a new ME game using Castles and Crusades (already wrote up the conversion notes and stuff), but thought about just doing MERP again. On the fence here.
If you have MERP and all its sourcebooks you don't need Against The Dark Master. MERP is amazinly tight. Personally using Arms Law would be good because the MERP critical tables get a bit dull after a session or two.
Quote from: Jaeger on December 07, 2022, 06:02:05 PM
Quote from: Marchand on December 07, 2022, 01:16:26 PM
One problem with this, apart from sheer time cost, is how do you square keeping a degree of risk/lethality in play against the time invested in chargen?
Somebody who has put 2-3 hours into rolling up their guy is probably going to be pretty miffed if that character goes down in the first melee.
Exactly, this is the kind of thing that leads to fudging die rolls, and making obviously contrived situations to save PC's...
Quote from: David Johansen on December 07, 2022, 01:50:46 PM
Quote from: David Johansen on December 07, 2022, 09:27:44 AM
Fair confession, it takes me an hour to churn out an RMSS character by hand but I've done dozens of them. Walking a new player through it takes three to five hours so I mostly do pregens.
The lethality is over sold, I've only, ever killed one character and he was a really broken dwarf berserker with a double headed flail which really killed stuff but also made him really vulnerable and I didn't feel bad about it. Like running early low level D&D you need to put some access to healing into things. At one point there was a paladin who tried to use a warhammer to hunt a moose and lost the initiative after declaring a full attack no parry. He wound up with broken ribs and punctured lungs. "Luckily," a local druid showed up and healed him. Another time my wife's character caught an arrow to her femoral artery and bled out. The other players almost demanded that I fudge the roll, and I just smiled, a friendly travelling necromancer showed up and brought her back from the brink of death. I see it as an opportunity to introduce npcs and quests.
Most of the time the stat differential between the PCs and their foes should be enough to spare them the worst of it. But the lethality is random and things happen. And yeah, making new characters is a bitch for some and an opportunity to others.
Q.E.D.
Yeah that was my thought too. I don't really want a game where PCs aren't at meaningful risk of death.
If a game designer sits down and says now I will write the best chargen chapter I can, you might well end up with loads of bells and whistles, options, background baked in etc. etc., and chargen taking 5 hours.
It needs someone to take the overall view of how chargen fits in as part of the overall desired gameplay.
Quote from: APN on December 07, 2022, 11:54:28 AM
vs Darkmaster is a Merp alike (and thus RM alike) game/clone with the Tolkien stripped out and a few things cleaned up.
Website: HERE (https://www.vsdarkmaster.com/)
It was out of stock for quite a while in dead tree so I got it in pdf and print/bound it in hardback myself. I also took the opportunity to split it into several books (as others have done when they took it to a print shop) to make it easier to handle. I also use the opportunity to put my own stamp on things so made my own covers and so on. Been doing this for a while now.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jd7jxVnZ/1670431327879.jpg)
From the brief skim through I've had (too many games not enough time, usual story) I'd have thought if you ever played MERP or Rolemaster you should be able to pick this up pretty well. D100, open ended, look on charts, aim for 100+ on Move Maneuvers and all that.
Because all the Tolkien stuff is stripped out there's also rules for cooking up a big bad evil guy, the 'Darkmaster' in the title. The PDF is about £13.80 at the moment on sale (or about $15 or whatever) which is pretty good as the page count is high, art is pretty good and it's a 'one book' game. Or rather it was - there's a few bits out for it I think.
Quickstart is pay what you want (i.e. nothing) on Drive thru so might be worth a look. Here you GO (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse.php?keywords=against+the+darkmaster&x=0&y=0&author=&artist=&pfrom=&pto=).
For someone who isn´t familiar with Darkmaster, would it work well as a replacement for the WHRP rules? I like the world but the career system does it for me...
Quote from: Jaeger on December 07, 2022, 06:02:05 PM
Exactly, this is the kind of thing that leads to fudging die rolls, and making obviously contrived situations to save PC's...
Q.E.D.
Those three incidents were from three different campaigns over about decade. Mostly, player characters need to play smarter. I remember an encounter where the mid level party backed off and slunk away from ten orcs in heavy armour with large shields marching in formation. Most first level D&D parties wouldn't think twice about attacking those guys.
One other thing, numbers tell in Rolemaster. You really, really don't want to get outnumbered. Large monsters aren't nearly as scary as large groups of man-sized enemies.
Quote from: David Johansen on December 07, 2022, 11:31:43 PM
If you have MERP and all its sourcebooks you don't need Against The Dark Master. MERP is amazinly tight. Personally using Arms Law would be good because the MERP critical tables get a bit dull after a session or two.
After posting this I opened up my crusty old MERP boxed set and lo and behold, the 1st edition Arms Law cardstock weapon charts and crit tables were in there...I had forgotten we used those to add some spice circa 1989.
I think I'll probably just buy it anyway because I have a couple empty spots on the shelf that need to be filled.
Quote from: Angry Goblin on December 08, 2022, 08:27:46 AM
For someone who isn´t familiar with Darkmaster, would it work well as a replacement for the WHRP rules? I like the world but the career system does it for me...
Author here: I think it's relatively easy to make it work, you could set the gods of Chaos as your Darkmaster, the rest is pretty straightforward. The biggest obstacle would be the lack of guns, but someone made a third party supplement that takes care of that: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/354181/Black-Powder-Guns (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/354181/Black-Powder-Guns)
Quote from: Arioch on December 08, 2022, 11:11:20 AM
Quote from: Angry Goblin on December 08, 2022, 08:27:46 AM
For someone who isn´t familiar with Darkmaster, would it work well as a replacement for the WHRP rules? I like the world but the career system does it for me...
Author here: I think it's relatively easy to make it work, you could set the gods of Chaos as your Darkmaster, the rest is pretty straightforward. The biggest obstacle would be the lack of guns, but someone made a third party supplement that takes care of that: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/354181/Black-Powder-Guns (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/354181/Black-Powder-Guns)
Hey bro, many thanks for this!
What's character creation like in Against Darkmaster? I always thought it was rather dull in Rolemaster.
Quote from: David Johansen on December 07, 2022, 11:31:43 PM
If you have MERP and all its sourcebooks you don't need Against The Dark Master. MERP is amazinly tight. Personally using Arms Law would be good because the MERP critical tables get a bit dull after a session or two.
Totally agree. I picked up "Against the Darkmaster" thinking to run it for MERP. And while it has cool vibe for sure, once we got into doing character gen there were enough fiddly little things that we scrapped it and just went back to MERP. I flipped my rulebook online. If you have your old MERP stuff, just keep it. But if you don't Darkmaster is probably a better option than the new Rolemaster.
That being said, I've also done lots of MERP conversions to B/X and Castles & Crusades and it's not hard. If you get creative, you can also port the crit charts over. Depends on your group. I can't convince my current players to do anything too complex so we've tended to bounce between OSE, C&C, and DCC, though I still like reading other systems for inspiration.
Quote from: Trond on December 09, 2022, 01:42:16 PM
What's character creation like in Against Darkmaster? I always thought it was rather dull in Rolemaster.
I found it rather slow. A bit faster than RM but there's lots of flipping back and forth through the book and you're doing the same basic thing, checking boxes for bonuses. It doesn't help that some of their sample PCs have errors in the calculations.
While I enjoyed the MERP comparisons, how does Against the Darkmaster compare to that other simplified Rolemaster in print, HARP.
Quote from: Trond on December 09, 2022, 01:42:16 PM
What's character creation like in Against Darkmaster? I always thought it was rather dull in Rolemaster.
The backgrounds really spice up VsDM character creation, especially when compared with MERP or RM2 (the only ones I have experience with). And they allow for very thematic characters if you want them. I like how they can vary up the vocations (classes) without adding new vocations.
Quote from: KingofElfland on December 12, 2022, 09:24:42 PM
Quote from: Trond on December 09, 2022, 01:42:16 PM
What's character creation like in Against Darkmaster? I always thought it was rather dull in Rolemaster.
The backgrounds really spice up VsDM character creation, especially when compared with MERP or RM2 (the only ones I have experience with). And they allow for very thematic characters if you want them. I like how they can vary up the vocations (classes) without adding new vocations.
I liked that more in reading than in actual character creation. In the end, it was just more background noise, literally. Give me a single d100 roll for a background and I can take it from there.