Now that WFRP has fallen off the table for me big time, i hereby pronounce RM as the King of games.
Relate your stories, good or bad, with this bad boy.
Rulemonster sucks!
Quote from: Phantom Black;350942Rulemonster sucks!
That is certainly one opinion, maybe even the predominant one. Any more?
When I was much younger, for a brief period, RM made me do bad things with Dragonlance.
Regards,
David R
I remember owning a copy of this game back in the late ninties, never played the actual game but the hex based maps and the character template models came in very handy for ad&d games and other stuff.
I always liked MERP over Rolemaster, even they were the same system for the most part. I think it was because of the awesome Angus McBride artwork.
Quote from: David R;350945When I was much younger, for a brief period, RM made me do bad things with Dragonlance.
Regards,
David R
Please explain, David!
Quote from: One Horse Town;350949Please explain, David!
Well, someone in the group managed to convince us that Krynn was a cool setting to play in....or at least the concept of "the Gods Returning" was something we could explore in a Fantasy setting.
None of us liked the prospect of using
D&D or
AD&D or whatever, so we decided to go with
RM, because some of the other kids were using it and it seemed kinda of cool.
Right off I realized although it was a generic game it really didn't fit the tone of
Dragonlance, but this really didn't bother me, because I didn't really like the tone to begin with.
Let's just say the short campaign was extremely brutal, I'm sorry I can't remember much but I do, recall that the players become obsessed with the
type of damage they inflicted upon their foes.
I'm sorry Dan, if I can dig up some of my extensive notes* , I'll post them here.
*I made comments about what I had observed of my players during play. It was like the scribblings of a mad scientist....
Regards,
David R
I agree that verily Rolemaster is the king of games, other than a brief flirt with AD&D when I was younger, RM was the game I cut my chops on.
I have RM1, RM2, RMSS, SpaceMaster books (sadly I am missing War Law and a couple MERP books).
For the longest time we played in ShadowWorld, toodling about Jaiman and Emer and it generated some of our groups oldest (and possibly funniest) group sayings. When we stopped playing in ShadowWorld we moved into the Grand Campaign and then finally into a long standing campaign world shared by the GM's in the group. For 10 years, from high school, through uni and beyond we played and played, long after ICE folded, up until just after it had reanimated.
In the end we only stopped playing due to the fact that all (but me) of the original members of the group had jobs in the mining industry and have ended up in some of the remotest parts of the country.
Quote from: David R;350957Let's just say the short campaign was extremely brutal, I'm sorry I can't remember much but I do, recall that the players become obsessed with the type of damage they inflicted upon their foes.
That was my experience, too. Much of it, though, was enthusiasm for the crits. Players would go to suicidal lengths to score hits and crits, just to revel in the dismemberment.
When I played another brief game of RM about eight years ago, the crits were just a nice touch, but the constant scanning of tables still got in the way of flow and fun.
Quote from: David R;350957Well, someone in the group managed to convince us that Krynn was a cool setting to play in....or at least the concept of "the Gods Returning" was something we could explore in a Fantasy setting.
None of us liked the prospect of using D&D or AD&D or whatever, so we decided to go with RM, because some of the other kids were using it and it seemed kinda of cool.
Right off I realized although it was a generic game it really didn't fit the tone of Dragonlance, but this really didn't bother me, because I didn't really like the tone to begin with.
Let's just say the short campaign was extremely brutal, I'm sorry I can't remember much but I do, recall that the players become obsessed with the type of damage they inflicted upon their foes.
I'm sorry Dan, if I can dig up some of my extensive notes* , I'll post them here.
*I made comments about what I had observed of my players during play. It was like the scribblings of a mad scientist....
Regards,
David R
Sounds...interesting.
King of Games is a well-deserved moniker. I haven't played for a couple of years but lately I have been pondering starting a full-monty sandbox RMSS campaign. Well, dreaming as my RM group is a long way away and my current group doesn't care for it.
Quote from: tellius;350964I agree that verily Rolemaster is the king of games, other than a brief flirt with AD&D when I was younger, RM was the game I cut my chops on.
I have RM1, RM2, RMSS, SpaceMaster books (sadly I am missing War Law and a couple MERP books).
For the longest time we played in ShadowWorld, toodling about Jaiman and Emer and it generated some of our groups oldest (and possibly funniest) group sayings. When we stopped playing in ShadowWorld we moved into the Grand Campaign and then finally into a long standing campaign world shared by the GM's in the group. For 10 years, from high school, through uni and beyond we played and played, long after ICE folded, up until just after it had reanimated.
In the end we only stopped playing due to the fact that all (but me) of the original members of the group had jobs in the mining industry and have ended up in some of the remotest parts of the country.
Never used Shadow World myself, although i transported the sourcebooks into my own campaigns. Curse of Kabis was the memorable end-game to one campaign.
Quote from: The_Shadow;350967King of Games is a well-deserved moniker. I haven't played for a couple of years but lately I have been pondering starting a full-monty sandbox RMSS campaign. Well, dreaming as my RM group is a long way away and my current group doesn't care for it.
A play by post here? (go on!)
Although i admit to being an RM2 whore myself.
I played the game in a few sessions that were co-GMed by friends in college, circa 1985. To be honest, very little of the system showed through. My character was some kind of sorcerer or illusionist who, either because of brittleness in the system, or just bad luck, had a tendency to suffer system shock and pass out whenever he tried a spell. Nevertheless I had a good time using my wits rather than the mechanics per se, as the group clicked well in a somewhat grimy if not gritty mix of S&S and Warhammer-ish fantasy.
I've never had a strong desire to get into the game, though. It just looks too involved and there are too many editions/variants to worry about. However I've got a copy of Run out the Guns which I'll look at more closely one of these days. It's a stripped-down RM used as the engine for a pirate campaign.
Quote from: One Horse Town;350968Never used Shadow World myself, although i transported the sourcebooks into my own campaigns. Curse of Kabis was the memorable end-game to one campaign.
The saddest thing is that while I have all the rule books I never did collect the Shadow World books, because at that time I never GM'd, just played. I'd love to get them, but not at the price that they go for on ebay (with International shipping). I scour old gaming bins at all the FLGS for a lucky find though.
Quote from: One Horse Town;350935Now that WFRP has fallen off the table for me big time, i hereby pronounce RM as the King of games.
Relate your stories, good or bad, with this bad boy.
Don't be silly! Stone Horizons is the King of Games!
At least until For King and Country comes out...
-clash
A guy on my flgs forum asked what we'd play if we could only play one from now on. I opined that I would want a generic, flexible, scalable system with good ancillary products (like War Law and Silent Death) so I could play war games or fleet games with the same essential product. I wanted a system you could play light or go deep if you wanted. After all that, Rolemaster was the only game left. I love all kinds of games, and I haven't played Rolemaster much lately, except for a Rolemaster Express demo on a bet to prove that it wasn't so complicated. But it's a terrific, often overlooked game. I think some edition confusion/conflict contributes to that, but maybe not much in the grand scheme of things.
I have a bunch of pretty typical game stories about it, but nothing weird or particularly illustrative. It's just always been a good, solid game.
We migrated to Rolemaster after we had played AD&D. My friend liked it because of the Middle Earth sourcebooks. I liked it because of the freedom to create any type of character. We played a couple of years and I mainly played rogues (good armor and good weapon costs). I also wore a chain shirt (AT 13) and used a long sword. And played a high elf.
I never shifted any of my OB to DB. I just attacked and it was wicked fun. The crit charts were a blast and we abused the heck out of the weapon kata rules.
We did not use the standard Rolemaster initiative system. Instead we rolled d100 and added the Agl bonus with the high roller going first.
The world was principally my friend's homebrew with material from the Middle Earth sourcebooks thrown in for good measure.
Our Rolemaster days lasted a couple of years (1983-1985 or so) and then we shifted gears to RQ2 and Stormbringer.
My Homebrew Rolemaster campaign is probably in my top three favourite games ever run.
The highlight is probably the Players charging a Cthuonian base only half way to have on of them scream... 'Hang on, these are Mind Flayers! We are attacking a city of Mind Flayers!"
Quote from: One Horse Town;350935Now that WFRP has fallen off the table for me big time, i hereby pronounce RM as the King of games.
Relate your stories, good or bad, with this bad boy.
Soooo just to be clear your proclaiming one dead game to be the king of games after you've decided you no longer like another recently dead game?
Yeah - that makes sense.
As far as Chartmaster goes we dropped it for something simpler and converted the campaign over to Champions (Fantasy Hero) which we then also got bored off and started playing WFRP 1s ed which lasted for well over a year when that group broke up as people moved away for college and what not.
Yeah, I don't get why WFRP has "fallen off the table" for you...
Is it just cause there's that nasty new thing coming out?
Nah, 1e AD&D is the king of games.
But I will tell you a couple of great Rolemaster stories.
First one's shorter...
We were playing a rolemaster game set in middle earth (not MERP) and were trying to find out why an elven lord "from the east" had apparently gone insane and ridden out with an army of easterlings and elves, sacked Rhun, and was poised to storm across southern Mordor and into Gondor.
Anyway, without too many details, we got close to the king in question and wound up in a close quarters fight with the guy. He's some 5000 year old cat who saw the first dawn, was around when the Simirils were forged, etc. etc. Cuts a swath straight for my character. I hold everything back except one point of offense and just barely parry him back.
My die roll. 99. Followed by 00. Followed by 98.
That was some damn great luck.
The other one is a long, long story that involves a nearly ten year long revenge plot set in motion, totally unknown to me and on my behalf, by my friend Kevin against our mutual friend Rob.
The ultra compressed version is that Rob's character slew a character of mine in the first hour of the first session of Rolemaster (again, middle earth setting) that I'd ever played, and like 5 years later Kevin arranging it so during a game I'd just popped by to "guest star" in with my rip-off of Subotai, I'd have an equal chance to do unto Rob. I did. By piercing his (2 years' run) character through one side of his jaw and out the other with an arrow.
Someday I'll tell the full version which is much more funny.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;351020Nah, 1e AD&D is the king of games.
1E AD&D is a good game but BECMI D&D is better.
As for Rolemaster being the king of games, I'd believe it in a world without D&D, Champions, TFT, etc.
I played MERP / RM in Middle Earth with my crew for many years, and it always was a blast. The best thing about the system is that I don't have any unusual story involving the system apart from the streaks of good / terrible luck you can find in any other RPG. As it usually happens with BRP (king of games for me) the system blends with the background, which is great.
We found that the grittiness of combat was great for Middle Earth, where a well placed stab would end your day or anyone's day. One - hit kills are totally tolkienian IMO. We were not so fond of the magic system, but we solved it through cool descriptions. And those rules for being detected by the Shadow each time you cast a spell are golden.
Quote from: jadrax;350997My Homebrew Rolemaster campaign is probably in my top three favourite games ever run.
The highlight is probably the Players charging a Cthuonian base only half way to have on of them scream... 'Hang on, these are Mind Flayers! We are attacking a city of Mind Flayers!"
Ha! :D
Quote from: kryyst;351005Soooo just to be clear your proclaiming one dead game to be the king of games after you've decided you no longer like another recently dead game?
Yeah - that makes sense.
Never underestimate the power of the badwrongfunnians!
Any one thought about replacing the RM crit system with a deck based one.
So decks for Thrusting, Slashing, Bashing et al. and then you save on the table cross checking malarky which did slow the game down.
I have been thinking about a toally deck based combat system in which each player has a deck based on their skill/weapon etc and hit and damage are determined by a draw and compare from both sides. I used something similar in a CCG and it was pretty effective in a simple abstracted way.
Quote from: kryyst;351005Soooo just to be clear your proclaiming one dead game to be the king of games after you've decided you no longer like another recently dead game?
Rolemaster a dead game? I thought Rolemaster Classic was in print.
I never played Rolemaster, but I have a lot of Rolemaster/Space Master/Shadow World supplements, and I was always able to find things to export to other games. For example I used the space and ground combat rules ("Star Strike" and "Armored Assault") in my GURPS Space Campaign.
However, the best thing about RM still remains (IMHO) the critical hit/fumbles descriptions: "You kill yourself in an amazingly creative way. Allies and enemies looking at you are stunned for three rounds" or "You internalize your spell's energy. Your body explodes in a billion of blinding particles. Allies and enemies within 10 yards take YX damage, and are blinded and stunned for six rounds".
Sadly, I never found the time to adapt these tables for other systems.
Our group has been playing Rolemaster as our main game for over 20 years, and i completely agree with the OP!
We have played very short campaigns, one which spanned nearly 8 years, by webcam, by email and now by fantasy grounds. I think it is fair to say that if i could only ever play 1 game, RM would be it.
My dreams have now come true, and i am about to have a RM book published!
Long live RM!
I think Rolemaster is the King of Rules for games. There may have never been more for any system. To me, making those rules mandatory for the GM means the game is near unplayable for most everyone. And the rules are not necessarily playable either as nonuniform as they are. (not the dice rolls, but the result rules)
That and probably the worst GM book in the history of the game make it a nonstarter for me.
I remember using Spell Law with Basic D&D back at college. I vaguely recall spending ages rolling up a character for an introductory 1 on 1 with my housemate. I died in the first encounter with a giant spider or two. That was enough for me.
To be fair my housemate ran a group that would spend the whole of Sunday at it for months on end, so fair play there.
Quote from: Joshua Ford;351070I remember using Spell Law with Basic D&D back at college. I vaguely recall spending ages rolling up a character for an introductory 1 on 1 with my housemate. I died in the first encounter with a giant spider or two. That was enough for me.
I think that this is more of a GM-style issue than an RM-specific problem. I have had characters die in the first encounter of an AD&D game as well as RM games.
RM is more difficult for a new group to just pick up and play for new players than some games, but it is not a complex game. If that first session you triad had been with me as GM, it would have gone completely differently!
(Not that i am adverse to characters dying. If they persist in doing stupid things or are very unlucky, they will die. But that is life)
The thread title seems to me so self-evident as to preclude further meaningful discussion.
Still, to be helpful I will say that I played RM for years back in the day, and had a great time with it. Huge fun, got a bit bloated with all the supplements I recall. Once you learned the rules, it was pretty fast to play, of course getting to that point did require a bit of time...
Quote from: bottg;351072I think that this is more of a GM-style issue than an RM-specific problem. I have had characters die in the first encounter of an AD&D game as well as RM games.
RM is more difficult for a new group to just pick up and play for new players than some games, but it is not a complex game. If that first session you triad had been with me as GM, it would have gone completely differently!
(Not that i am adverse to characters dying. If they persist in doing stupid things or are very unlucky, they will die. But that is life)
Oh I know - I think it was the amount of time I'd spent creating the character and despite that he was still finished off in short order.
I still have Spell Law and Arms Law upstairs, if only because I like reading the critical tables and they've given my ideas.
Nice to know you'd be gentle with me on the first time though ;)
MERP, with various bits of Rolemaster taped on (e.g. Arms Law), was my game of choice from 1985-1988 (high school years). We played a lot of it, almost every week, for three years straight.
Good times. Although I made some questionable decisions as GM. (Mind-flayers and characters from other novels should not have been introduced in Fourth Age Eriador. *sigh*)
I tried to play RMSS in autumn 1999, but hated it. Should have stuck with MERP.
I would like to give RMX a spin sometime, to see if it shares the spirit of MERP. I would use a homebrew setting this time, though, as I'm not presently interested in running games in Middle-earth.
Quote from: Joshua Ford;351081Oh I know - I think it was the amount of time I'd spent creating the character and despite that he was still finished off in short order.
I still have Spell Law and Arms Law upstairs, if only because I like reading the critical tables and they've given my ideas.
Nice to know you'd be gentle with me on the first time though ;)
I think that RM is a special case with new players. If they play in a game where every combat takes 4 hours, there are hundreds of tables to look up, character creation takes 3 hours and their new character dies in the first fight, they get a bad impression of the game and this colours their view thereafter.
This of course does happen sometimes in RM, but is not representative of the vast majority of games. RM run by a good, experienced GM is an awesome experience.
EDIT: I might even think about running some con games next year for newbies just to show them how much fun RM can be!
Quote from: bottg;351057My dreams have now come true, and i am about to have a RM book published!
Lucky man! What is it?
Quote from: One Horse Town;351087Lucky man! What is it?
Some information is already out there, and i don't think it is a secret any longer!
It is a Rome campaign setting for RM Classic (and obviously RM2). There are races, training packages, weapons, armour, new magic and combat styles and new monsters. There is also a fairly thorough description of the setting itself, as well as advice on types of campaign etc. As written it is Rome + some magic (although the magic is commensurate with the setting) although it would be easy to do pure historical or all out Gonzo Rome-stylie!
Quote from: bottg;351091Some information is already out there, and i don't think it is a secret any longer!
It is a Rome campaign setting for RM Classic (and obviously RM2). There are races, training packages, weapons, armour, new magic and combat styles and new monsters. There is also a fairly thorough description of the setting itself, as well as advice on types of campaign etc. As written it is Rome + some magic (although the magic is commensurate with the setting) although it would be easy to do pure historical or all out Gonzo Rome-stylie!
This sounds great! Consider yourself having sold one copy already. :)
I don't know if Rolemaster is the king of games, maybe that's saying too much, but what I'm sure of, is that Rolemaster is the king of RPGs with damage charts. I like the damage charts of Warhammer, Hârnmaster, The Riddle of Steel, but the crit charts of Rolemaster are my favorite. No doubt.
Quote from: bottg;351091Some information is already out there, and i don't think it is a secret any longer!
It is a Rome campaign setting for RM Classic (and obviously RM2). There are races, training packages, weapons, armour, new magic and combat styles and new monsters. There is also a fairly thorough description of the setting itself, as well as advice on types of campaign etc. As written it is Rome + some magic (although the magic is commensurate with the setting) although it would be easy to do pure historical or all out Gonzo Rome-stylie!
Let me know when it is out, I'd love to grab it! :)
Quote from: tellius;351128Let me know when it is out, I'd love to grab it! :)
Excellent :)
There are a few last bits to finalise (i understand that the east coast snowstorms in the US arn't helping!) and then it should be released. It could be any day now.
When he said 'Rolemaster is the King of Games', I read it in the same vein as Budweiser: The King of Beers, The King of Queens sitcom, or maybe Michael Jackson the King of Pop. Not really a complement in my book.
IMO, Rolemaster is the Emerson, Lake & Palmer of Games. Big, bombastic prog fantasy with an emphasis on virtuoso chops over three-chord riffage. Good for ambience but you just can't dance to it. The best you can hope for is some interpretive flailing about that's not very entertaining if you're not high.
P.S. T&T would have to be the Jerry Lee Lewis of Gaming. Old-school drunken rocker ruined over a naive 15 year old.
Quote from: bottg;351083I think that RM is a special case with new players. If they play in a game where every combat takes 4 hours, there are hundreds of tables to look up, character creation takes 3 hours and their new character dies in the first fight, they get a bad impression of the game and this colours their view thereafter.
This of course does happen sometimes in RM, but is not representative of the vast majority of games. RM run by a good, experienced GM is an awesome experience.
This is extremely similar to experiences with GURPS. Except that I've found the vast majority of game sessions (in both GURPS and RM) really do have that absurd and dull level of detail. I think it's because of the sort of GM attracted to them. If you're the sort who likes to keep things moving, you probably won't choose GURPS/RM. If you're the sort who likes to spend hours on details, you'll
love GURPS/RM. And part of passionate love for something is being unable to comprehend that others may not love it as passionately.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;351176And part of passionate love for something is being unable to comprehend that others may not love it as passionately.
This is true! I can get a bit irate sometimes when someone posts how incredibly complex RM is or how it is just thousands of tables. It is not like this at all for me, and then i have to remind myself of that bit:
for meEveryone has different tastes, but i also think people should try games before they dismiss them totally.
Relevant to complexity, Greg Porter recently had this to say (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=11414111&postcount=25) about GURPS.
"Part of what I wanted to do with EABA was to not have some of the perceived problems with excellent (but aging) systems like GURPS and Hero. GURPS can do just about everything. It has had 20 years to shoehorn in special rules for just about every side case you can imagine. And you have to look each and every one of them up."
Much the same could be said of Rolemaster, unfortunately. One of the reasons I gave up on it was drowning criticals. I mean, seriously...
I prefer systems with emergent complexity, like chess - the basic rules can be written on less than a page, but there are an extraordinary number of possible game sessions that came out from those rules. From simplicity to complexity.
RM, GURPS, etc front-load the complexity. This puts off newbies and the typical lazy gamer.
The genius of D&D and similar systems is that - pre-4e, anyway - they were simple at low-level, and more complex at high-level. Thus you could learn the complex parts of the system in play, as you played on more choices opened up to you.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;351213One of the reasons I gave up on it was drowning criticals. I mean, seriously...
I've been playing for decades and never noticed drowning criticals. I guess it's buried in one of the RM2 Companions, which are ENTIRELY OPTIONAL RULES. So it's not a matter of
oh gawd I have to remember to use this table if drowning ever comes up, but
hey you failed your moving maneuver to cross the river? cool...I saw this table which might just add flavour and drama to the situation.
And if the GM doesn't know about the table or can't be assed to use it, that is fine too. Which is exactly how my games run...90% time we just use the elegant core, but if the player wants to run with alchemy or I have a bad guy who creates golems, there's a stack of extra rules for those things which all add fun to the game.
Yeah, that's what people say about GURPS, too, and used to say about D&D3.5 with its four zillion feats.
"Oh but it's all optional!"
Which is true, but also bollocks. Because if it's there in print, people tend to want to use it - at least if they think it'll advantage their character.
"Okay, you start drowning, you're going to die."
"Shouldn't we roll for drowning criticals? Then I might live."
"I suppose so..."
And once the rule has been looked up and used once rather than just a GM ruling, it'll be looked up and used again.
This is less so in long-established groups, where most accept a single set of rules which don't change much over the years. But in a typical game group with (relatively) frequently changing membership, you get a lot more, "hey, let's use the new 101 Magical Doorknobs, my character is all about the doorknobs!"
It's true that I had a long-established group with a good dynamic and no real rules lawyers, so that helped. But as far as the 101 Magic Doorknobs syndrome goes, it can actually be a positive. In my group generally each PC had a couple of areas of specialisation, and we would enjoy going to town using the rules in that area, for example the bard's performances or item crafting.
So perhaps it does come down to group dynamics, or lack of ass hattery. But it's the same in rules light games for different reasons. I'm glad that someone created the baroque wonders of RM, I couldn't play it exclusively but it scratches a certain itch.
And I just had an enjoyable 10 minutes searching my books for Drowning Criticals (Companion VII) so that in itself is a value I don't get from Risus.
My asperger's therapy recommences tomorrow. :p
Some of my group played the hell out of RM (usually combined with MERP into an hybrid abomination they called "RoleMERP") back in the day. Being a latecomer to this particular group, I wasn't around back then.
One of them wants to run RM, and I've recently sat down to create my first character.
Ugh. Felt like middle school math homework, it did.
What else can I say? Rifts is still my favorite game setting, and I've dropped it because of the clunky character creation (I'm working on a variation of theRPGPundit's fix right now). I tend to gravitate towards games like pre-3e D&D and Savage Worlds which feature really quick character creatioin. Hell, GURPS is about as crunchy as I'm usually willing to get. And I'd have never played D&D 4e if it were not for the free version of the Character Builder.
Rest assured that I'll give it a try, but character creation did rub me the wrong way...
I adore this game, after RuneQuest this was the 2nd BIG game I got into. 1st Edition.
Its an absolute beast to run, what with all those tables and charts, and the title of the 2nd worst set of poorly laid out rules, (behind In Nomine).
You have a choice to either make your own streamlined set of charts, divide the labour up, i.e. someone has the weapon charts, someone has the critical charts, or bite the bullet and do it all yourself.
Obviously I'm a big RM fan but I have to say I'm pretty much done with it. I won't go back into my attitudes on the backflip but it's gone beyond that now and I'm done. I'll probably finish up the article on running sporting events for the Guild Companion after Christmas but then, unless something earthshaking happens at ICE I'm finished.
Quote from: David Johansen;351266Obviously I'm a big RM fan but I have to say I'm pretty much done with it. I won't go back into my attitudes on the backflip but it's gone beyond that now and I'm done. I'll probably finish up the article on running sporting events for the Guild Companion after Christmas but then, unless something earthshaking happens at ICE I'm finished.
I can understand feeling pretty meh about the current ICE as well, having dealt with them during the RM Classic project. But I generally feel that Tim, Bruce and Heike have done their best over the last 8 years. Yes, they have made some decisions which in hindsight haven't worked out that well. At this point the market has slipped away and even a souped-up new edition which reconciles RM2 and RMFRP and has great production values wouldn't sell all that much. Consequently I think ICE has pretty much given up and is on a shoestring both for money and energy.
Which is all a shame, but we have the game itself and it's not going anywhere.
No, the problem is that I'm tired of the edition war and bitter that RMSS will receive no more support. Nor will a new tiered edition help. The detailed tier will get bumped to a long promised supplement that never materializes.
I'm not sure ICE has the will and vision left to bring a new edition to market in any case.
If sales have slipped it's because us fans end up fighting over the edition every time it comes up. I've said I was done before but at this point the only way I'd want to be involved is if I owned the property.
Otherwise my time and energy are better spent on my own projects.
Quote from: David Johansen;351316No, the problem is that I'm tired of the edition war and bitter that RMSS will receive no more support.
On this score, i do have an RMSS version of the Rolemaster Rome book, and am quite happy to make conversion notes available as a free download to people who buy the main one. This is obviously not quite as good as a full RMSS version, but the majority of the book is either cross-version or setting material.
One of my favorite Rolemaster moments had to be when Stump the Dwarf Fighter in our party saved our ass from an Unnatural 66 encounter roll.
Our GM at the time was a total ass, and didn't particularly care for the way we were going. When we rolled a 66, it was perfect timing for him to drop some Elder Giant Demon on us.
I was playing a Sage, and was generally considered useless in combat at the time, though that soon changed...more on that in a moment.
So this 15' tall red-horned monstrosity is sitting in our way. Now, not one of us was over 7th level at the time. But you know what they say about Rolemaster combat....there's always a chance.
Was there ever!
Stump was belligerent. Very belligerent. Attack first, ask questions later. Usually, he has the chops to pull it off, but he knew that if he got close to this thing and whatever giant-ass sword and flaming whip it was holding, he was done for.
So after getting initiative, he announced he was throwing his battleaxe. Penalties and all that, but he kissed his percentile dice and sent them a'rollin'. He open-ended with like a 98, which meant he rolled again.
He open-ended again.
He open-ended again, barely.
He rolled a 78, which didn't open-end, but which put his total attack roll at well over 400.
Time for the critical hit roll--it was a 90-something.
Bottom line, the axe plants itself deep in the damned thing's forehead. It dissipates, banished from the mortal plane for 100 years.
....
.....
My second Rolemaster story has to do with my Sage. Now, I was not much use in a fight--not a pure spell caster, crappy to hit with my crappy rapier. I did have a shortbow, which I had diligently been putting some (oh-so-expensive) ranks into. But whereas other people had Kill Numbers into the dozens, I had none. And here I am at 7th level!
Well, the city our party lived in was seized by this group of vampires. They mind-enslaved the town guards, and sent groups to attack us all at our places of residences. My house was a scholar's retreat, full of maps, treatises, manuscripts, scrolls, and everything else you'd expect.
They set the thing on fire. I arrived too late from my travels to do anything but watch it burn.
8 guards and our group's resident traitor, a cavalier, slowly advanced on me.
The roof, the roof, the roof was on fire.
All my books, my manuscripts, my writings, gone.
My scholar went batshit.
In-game, I had just discovered an herb that granted haste-like abilities when ingested properly. Addictive as hell.
I downed the stuff like candy, screamed, and took out my shortbow.
I literally could not miss that night. I killed 4 guards in 4 rounds. The 5th round, with the line-of-sight cleared, I took out the commanding cavalier, with a critical that sent him spinning backward 20 feet, his heart burst by a dead-on arrow.
My allies showed in time to finish off the rest. I think, by then, there were 1 or 2 alive, maybe one more on the ground.
You don't mess with a man's library.
If we're counting MERP in the Rolemaster category then I just might agree with you. I have years of fond memories with that game and would love to get a game going again. Sadly, no one around here wants to play it.
-=Grim=-
Quote from: Akrasia;351103This sounds great! Consider yourself having sold one copy already. :)
AND IT IS HERE!!
It has taken a while, and there have been some unforseen obstacles, but it is finally released. I refer you to the appropriate ad:
Rolemaster Rome (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=16390)
Quote from: bottg;358858AND IT IS HERE!!
It has taken a while, and there have been some unforseen obstacles, but it is finally released. I refer you to the appropriate ad:
Rolemaster Rome (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=16390)
Excellent! :hatsoff:
Will a print version be available at some point?
Quote from: Akrasia;358905Excellent! :hatsoff:
Will a print version be available at some point?
That is the plan, but i am not sure on timescales
So what are the differences between the editions? How different are RMFRP and RMC and RM Express? How express is RM Express? What actual books are included in the RM Express 3-book and 6-book bundles? I like the idea of Classic I think, but I don't know having not ever played RM in any form, or even looked through the books. I have an idea for a campaign setting that has been rattling around in my head for awhile now (years really) but have not yet found a system that I think would do it full justice.
Quote from: Sigmund;358953So what are the differences between the editions? How different are RMFRP and RMC and RM Express? How express is RM Express? What actual books are included in the RM Express 3-book and 6-book bundles? I like the idea of Classic I think, but I don't know having not ever played RM in any form, or even looked through the books. I have an idea for a campaign setting that has been rattling around in my head for awhile now (years really) but have not yet found a system that I think would do it full justice.
RMC is just Rolemaster 2 rewritten and cleaned up. It has a more basic single skill system.
RMFRP is basically RMSS redone and streamlined a bit from what I hear. It has a more complex character creation (Training Packages), and complex skill tree system (Skill Categories and Skills) than RMC.
RMX from the description, looks like MERP rewritten and turned into generic fantasy. A simpler and streamlined version of RMC.
Quote from: CRKrueger;358956RMC is just Rolemaster 2 rewritten and cleaned up. It has a more basic single skill system.
RMFRP is basically RMSS redone and streamlined a bit from what I hear. It has a more complex character creation (Training Packages), and complex skill tree system (Skill Categories and Skills) than RMC.
RMX from the description, looks like MERP rewritten and turned into generic fantasy. A simpler and streamlined version of RMC.
Thank you, although I don't know what RM2 was/is like, and I don't know what RMSS is or is like either.
Well, Rolemaster started out as a series of generic D&D supplements for combat and magic, later character creation and campaign rules were added on. Essentially RM is AD&D+. The "A" is an important distinction. Each profession buys skills at different prices and has different limits on how much a skill can be developed per level. The weapon verses armour type thing is very fundamental to the combat system. Spells are organized into Realms that reflect they style of casting and purchased as lists of related spells, such as Fire Law.
RM2 is just RM1 cleaned up and repackaged as a self contained roleplaying game. It has fewer skills than RMSS and one less layer of detail in the skill system. Stats are more random and stat gain rolls require a chart check. Since every skill has a cost specific to each profession the addition of skills or professions creates a really big mass of charted data (even for RM). Most new professions just rearrange profession bonuses and use a preexisting profession's development costs. For instance a Hero uses a Fighter's development rates. The range of options in the various companions pretty much ensured that no two groups were playing the same game.
Hence the need for a Standard System.
RMSS has more skills organized into categorys and proficiency must be developed in both skill and category. Skills are priced by category. Really I think that's where the main debate lies, if you could just buy one, the other, or both without being penalized I think both camps would be satisfied. RMSS has around 600 skills. However this is partly because spell lists and body development are treated as skills. There's also some acrimony over special skills that are developed faster or slower. Training packages are also introduced, allowing a character to buy a fixed skill package at a discount in exchange for being older. It's a great feature that helps to control the profession bloat issue but it could have been executed a little better.
RMSS characters have much better starting skills. Indeed a first level fighter can present a credible threat to a tenth level fighter. They can take a little longer to make but there are ways to streamline it considerably. RMSS is also very well supported with a wide range of supplements and a companion sf game. RM2 had this feature but most aren't available due to difficulties with locating the authors and artists.
RMfrp was a somewhat misguided attempt to make RMSS more accessible and bridge the gap with RM2 fans. It's okay as a sampler or a cheaper starting point. The organization doesn't make much sense in the context of a single volume game but it's not the absolute organizational disaster that Spacemaster Privateers is. There are things that really should be in there like the Grappling critical table but it's complete enough to get a feel for the game.
RMX is a RM2 / RMC based starter game that cuts down things much as RMfrp does though even I'll admit it's a better book than RMfrp.
Quote from: David Johansen;359023Well, Rolemaster started out as a series of generic D&D supplements for combat and magic, later character creation and campaign rules were added on. Essentially RM is AD&D+. The "A" is an important distinction. Each profession buys skills at different prices and has different limits on how much a skill can be developed per level. The weapon verses armour type thing is very fundamental to the combat system. Spells are organized into Realms that reflect they style of casting and purchased as lists of related spells, such as Fire Law.
RM2 is just RM1 cleaned up and repackaged as a self contained roleplaying game. It has fewer skills than RMSS and one less layer of detail in the skill system. Stats are more random and stat gain rolls require a chart check. Since every skill has a cost specific to each profession the addition of skills or professions creates a really big mass of charted data (even for RM). Most new professions just rearrange profession bonuses and use a preexisting profession's development costs. For instance a Hero uses a Fighter's development rates. The range of options in the various companions pretty much ensured that no two groups were playing the same game.
Hence the need for a Standard System.
RMSS has more skills organized into categorys and proficiency must be developed in both skill and category. Skills are priced by category. Really I think that's where the main debate lies, if you could just buy one, the other, or both without being penalized I think both camps would be satisfied. RMSS has around 600 skills. However this is partly because spell lists and body development are treated as skills. There's also some acrimony over special skills that are developed faster or slower. Training packages are also introduced, allowing a character to buy a fixed skill package at a discount in exchange for being older. It's a great feature that helps to control the profession bloat issue but it could have been executed a little better.
RMSS characters have much better starting skills. Indeed a first level fighter can present a credible threat to a tenth level fighter. They can take a little longer to make but there are ways to streamline it considerably. RMSS is also very well supported with a wide range of supplements and a companion sf game. RM2 had this feature but most aren't available due to difficulties with locating the authors and artists.
RMfrp was a somewhat misguided attempt to make RMSS more accessible and bridge the gap with RM2 fans. It's okay as a sampler or a cheaper starting point. The organization doesn't make much sense in the context of a single volume game but it's not the absolute organizational disaster that Spacemaster Privateers is. There are things that really should be in there like the Grappling critical table but it's complete enough to get a feel for the game.
RMX is a RM2 / RMC based starter game that cuts down things much as RMfrp does though even I'll admit it's a better book than RMfrp.
Wow, sounds like RMX would be about as much as I'd be willing to invest actually. Thanks for the more detailed breakdown, that's what I needed. I'm thinking about picking up the RMX 6 book bundle.
Just keep it in mind that you're looking at a very minimal version of the rules. The full game looks scary but it's really not that bad.
To my own thinking Rolemaster's advantage over D&D is that it does more. When you cut that back too much you're better off playing D&D. And this is I who have been rightfully accused of fighting a one man war against D&D saying that.
Quote from: David Johansen;359037Just keep it in mind that you're looking at a very minimal version of the rules. The full game looks scary but it's really not that bad.
To my own thinking Rolemaster's advantage over D&D is that it does more. When you cut that back too much you're better off playing D&D. And this is I who have been rightfully accused of fighting a one man war against D&D saying that.
So is your opinion that RMX isn't worth it? Is RMX the point where I might as well play DnD, or is it still enough to be more than DnD but less than other RMs?
I guess it depends what you want. RMX is still a more coherent game than any edition of D&D it just doesn't do a whole lot MORE.
Quote from: Sigmund;359159So is your opinion that RMX isn't worth it? Is RMX the point where I might as well play DnD, or is it still enough to be more than DnD but less than other RMs?
RMX is definitely worth checking out. The PDF is only 5 USD and the print version 10 USD. It has enough to run a campaign. If you want to flesh it out a bit, you could always pick up an 'Express Addition' (only 2 USD each).
Quote from: David Johansen;359169I guess it depends what you want. RMX is still a more coherent game than any edition of D&D it just doesn't do a whole lot MORE.
Good to know. I think I might check it out.
Quote from: Akrasia;359192RMX is definitely worth checking out. The PDF is only 5 USD and the print version 10 USD. It has enough to run a campaign. If you want to flesh it out a bit, you could always pick up an 'Express Addition' (only 2 USD each).
What is contained in the "Express Additions"? Are thy what come in the 3 and 6 book bundles? Huh, now I can't find the bundles... also, I see where the differences between RMX and RMC are explained, missed that before.
I have now completed an RMFRP/RMSS Conversion document for Rolemaster Rome, to allow it to be used with those versions of the game!
Do you have a link to that? I can mention it in my review that I'm finishing up.
Quote from: Zachary The First;360583Do you have a link to that? I can mention it in my review that I'm finishing up.
It is now part of the download, and you could probably get it from your RPGNow account, but i will also email you that now.
As promised, here's my review of Rolemaster Rome (http://www.rpgblog2.com/2010/02/review-rolemaster-rome.html)!
Quote from: Zachary The First;360660As promised, here's my review of Rolemaster Rome (http://www.rpgblog2.com/2010/02/review-rolemaster-rome.html)!
Good review! Thanks for that.
I personally found the game cumbersome and overly complex. The various Rolemaster pieces did not mesh well (little balance), so you could not cross genre things easily. Most of the people I played with could not make heads or tails of the books. A few tried to play it, but it didn't work for them. The books were really pretty though.
MERPS made more sense and was better recieved.
Note I said Most people. There was a group that managed to make the game playable. Each player had a character binder. The character binder had the pages (and charts) in various the rulebooks that applied to the character copied and put in plastic holders. So each character's binder had about 30 pages, some more (magic users), a few less. (Each character ran you about six bucks (way back when).) With the charts and a lot of practice, they managed to be quite efficient in their combat times. In fact, they played through many really big combats in less time than most player groups (they made a point of trying to play fast).
Quote from: MoonHunter;360880I personally found the game cumbersome and overly complex. The various Rolemaster pieces did not mesh well (little balance), so you could not cross genre things easily. Most of the people I played with could not make heads or tails of the books. A few tried to play it, but it didn't work for them. The books were really pretty though.
MERPS made more sense and was better recieved.
Note I said Most people. There was a group that managed to make the game playable. Each player had a character binder. The character binder had the pages (and charts) in various the rulebooks that applied to the character copied and put in plastic holders. So each character's binder had about 30 pages, some more (magic users), a few less. (Each character ran you about six bucks (way back when).) With the charts and a lot of practice, they managed to be quite efficient in their combat times. In fact, they played through many really big combats in less time than most player groups (they made a point of trying to play fast).
There are some important points about Rolemaster here. Some people just don't get on with it. I wonder what your final opinion might have been had you played RM with the organised group though?
Also, if you are organised, and have all of the necessary charts copied and to hand, RM does indeed move very fast.
RM is a piece of piss once you get familiar with it. D&D 3 & 4 are far more complex.
RMX is a great deal and pretty well organized. I still prefer HARP for getting in and playing (and HARP Lite is a free complete PDF) and its tweakable magic over spell lists but its organization is lackluster and Rolemaster has a certain feel to it. Both really could have benefited from a good chargen program, one was promised for HARP but never materialized.
Quote from: Sigmund;359221What is contained in the "Express Additions"? Are thy what come in the 3 and 6 book bundles? Huh, now I can't find the bundles... also, I see where the differences between RMX and RMC are explained, missed that before.
Each typically has 1 or 2 new classes and also races and a new type of magic or spell caster. Very good and cheap stepping stones from RMX. Not sure if they're best bought in order or if it's fine to pick and choose. IMO a better option than buying 3+ Law books for learning and cost. That's another thing I liked about HARP, one core book but that's not as feasible for Rolemaster.
I did like MERP and Spell Law back in the first edition days.
In my experience the only D&D players who have actually read the rules through are the munchkins.
Rolemaster is an intimidating read and it doesn't really do a great job of teaching you to use it.
And it takes some experience to get used to it.
As I've said many times, on average, a combat round will take you longer but things will die faster.
Because I'm lazy I only read the first twenty or so posts... so I'm not going to correct for thread drift. Fuck you, this is MY place...
Anyway.
Many years ago I was playing MERP with the local GM dude, who had a hard on for... um... something. We always spent a long time wandering in the wilderness going to the adventures and scrabbling hard for every little morsel of food... never mind the XP.
This was in any game, mind you, not just the MERP. Miracle of miracles, we started in a single day's travel from town and soon entered, did some investigations, lost at least one character to a suicidal charge against the main keep in town for reasons best left to speculation and san loss.
After many weeks in town (real weeks... it was something like two days for our party I think...) we finally get a lead on an adventure of some sort and leave town.
During the boring ass road trip portion the mighty elf archer of doom decides he's going to shoot some random birds. For food or sport or what have you...
Random. Birds.
THis guy (an optimizer, though how good I can't say) pulls his dice, rolls 'em and winds up with a modified 100+ die roll. I don't recall the exact amount, but we all agreed it was a good solid shot, with a nice solid die roll to back it up, if not 'super duper'.
The GM looks up from his screen, clears his throat to get our attention, and calmly tells us he missed hugely. It appeared to be that, all modifiers taken into account, the difficultly of shooting a random bird on the wing was something over 150... which meant that our superhuman (elf) archer/sniper at first level could only succeed on a critical success.
We all looked at each other, looked at our character sheets and...
Not a one of us showed up the next week.
Yes, virginia, at least the way it was being run at THAT table, RM was the king of games, if you meant by 'king' that it made you suck even harder at first level than D&D did.
Heh, sometimes my campaigns look like that. I think he probably had a hard on for structure and proceedures.
My own problem stems from trying to get PCs to take initiative in a sandbox. Yes that can be code for came unprepared to GM. If you don't have players who can handle that you end up looking for random encounters.
On the other hand, some of my very best games came out of sandbox play and improvisation.