Greetings!

I was reading somewhere where someone said that traps and such are included in dungeon modules simply to give the useless Rogue something to do.

I thought that such an assessment seemed to be pretty cynical. Certainly, yes, it is very nice to have a skilled Rogue in the group able to go forward and disarm traps, and aid in discovering and recovering, fine treasures. I don't however see the inclusion of traps to be merely a mechanical piñata to help provide something entertaining and useful for Rogues to do, so they don't just somehow stand around, twiddling their thumbs.

Historically, ancient ruins and palaces, as well as fortresses and such have in fact been fortified with a variety of traps. It isn't stretching the verisimilitude much to think that in a hypothetical campaign world, various wizards, warlords, barbarian chieftains and priests alike would desire whatever ruins, tombs, and fortresses to be additionally fortified with normal mechanical traps, as well as magical traps.

Having Rogues in the group is a wise policy, and dealing with traps while searching through a variety of ruins, abandoned fortresses, ancient wizard towers, or lost temples, seems to be a very realistic threat and a dynamic that any group should always remain conscious of. On a practical level, a series of strong traps can injure, kill, or otherwise frustrate and delay a group considerably. Rescuing endangered comrades, healing those injured, being forced to deal with wandering monsters or other guardians that have arrived because the party was dealing with some encountered traps--that all creates not only drama and tension, but also generates resource management skills, encouraging tactics and good strategy. All of which is encountered in an environment that makes sense.

Beyond all of that--watch how Rogue characters deal with the stress and pressure of making dice rolls, skill checks, and a variety of decisions and choices while encountering a diversity of traps, with rich treasures in the offing, or a comrade's life hanging in the balance!

Definitely solid entertainment!

Do you make use of Rogues in your groups? How about employing traps and such in your dungeons and fortresses? I have always liked the whole dynamic and the entertainment from it all. Good stuff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I have traps, but only where it makes sense to have them. Often traps are setting dependant. What makes sense in one setting might be nonsensical in another. But then the same argument could be made for monsters. But, yes, I use traps and rogue characters in my games.

I don't use traps often, but mostly cuz I forget to add them or consider them when crafting dungeons or similar locations, which I see as a personal failing. I have also seen people make the claim that traps exist mostly to give rogues something to do, and I can see where they're coming from (and it might be the case that some DMs use them too frequently), but I tend to agree with the OP that traps have a place in the game and where historically used to guard treasure or sensitive locations from trespassers.

Even today alarms are fairly common, which is a non-lethal variant of traps. If we were playing a contemporary or cyberpunk setting, would you say that the GM adding security systems and computers to a building is doing so just to give hackers something to do? Or would they be an important feature of the genre? Same deal with traps and rogues.

Traps exist because they're a plausible challenge characters are likely to encounter while adventuring and rogues are necessary because not everyone can perform every role in the team. Which is why every team-focused story involving a heist or group of mercenaries breaking into a facility to rescue an asset or retrieve a stolen formula or whatever includes people with a diverse set of skills, including specialists trained to handle specialized situations, like breaking into vaults, hacking security systems or analyzing data to assess their integrity, etc.

Traps I've used in the past (not counting stuff from modules):

The Teeter-totter room from Grimtooth's Traps (that was fun)
Rope bridge with bells and chimes hanging from it (used to alert guards at the opposite end; that was fun)
A cursed ring that hits you with lightning when you put it on (players found it in a pile of ashes, and noped right out of that)
Guillotine doorway from Grimtooth's Traps (players spotted the blood stains on the floor, and noped right out of that)
Pillar of Ooze (easiest trap to avoid; just don't touch it. Of course somebody decided to lick it.)
Hallway of flammable gas (of course the players walked through with lit torches)

Traps I want to use in the future:
Chamber of non-magical silence (a waterfall in a cave with certain acoustic properties causes a non-magical version of a permanent Silence spell)
Sprinkler System (water from the ceilings puts out fires and reveals invisible creatures; I like water-based traps for their potential to ruin spellbooks)
Spell Mimic (what appears to be a spell recorded in a scroll or spellbook isn't what it seems; when the spell is copied, the book or scroll it is copied into becomes a spellcasting mimic)

Quote from: SHARK;1116254I was reading somewhere where someone said that traps and such are included in dungeon modules simply to give the useless Rogue something to do.

The stupid and the willfully ignorant tend to make declarations like that. Anyone can search for traps. Rogues just find them better and can disarm them easier.

Pretty sure dungeons with traps predate rogues and thieves.

Quote from: Joey2k;1116333Pretty sure dungeons with traps predate rogues and thieves.

Yes, but the nature of traps and locked doors changed with the introduction of the thief, or at least the way they were GMed changed. Well, actually, for me it didn't change because by the time I started playing (Holmes) the Thief was part of the game. Locks and trapped chests and such were played as exclusively in the domain of the thief to bypass (well, the fighter with an axe could bypass some of them...). And then I noticed in my own GMing that it really felt like I was presenting challenges for the thief where the only purpose really was to make the thief feel useful. I would run things differently today and allow other ways to bypass locks and traps, but I definitely went through a period where there was circular justification of thieves and traps and locks.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1116277I don't use traps often, but mostly cuz I forget to add them or consider them when crafting dungeons or similar locations, which I see as a personal failing. I have also seen people make the claim that traps exist mostly to give rogues something to do, and I can see where they're coming from (and it might be the case that some DMs use them too frequently), but I tend to agree with the OP that traps have a place in the game and where historically used to guard treasure or sensitive locations from trespassers.

Even today alarms are fairly common, which is a non-lethal variant of traps. If we were playing a contemporary or cyberpunk setting, would you say that the GM adding security systems and computers to a building is doing so just to give hackers something to do? Or would they be an important feature of the genre? Same deal with traps and rogues.

Traps exist because they're a plausible challenge characters are likely to encounter while adventuring and rogues are necessary because not everyone can perform every role in the team. Which is why every team-focused story involving a heist or group of mercenaries breaking into a facility to rescue an asset or retrieve a stolen formula or whatever includes people with a diverse set of skills, including specialists trained to handle specialized situations, like breaking into vaults, hacking security systems or analyzing data to assess their integrity, etc.

Greetings!

That's right, VisionStorm! Different specialists and members of a team can have some very critical skills!

I've always thought Rogues are awesome. Even back in the day, as *Thieves*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Omega;1116332The stupid and the willfully ignorant tend to make declarations like that. Anyone can search for traps. Rogues just find them better and can disarm them easier.

Depends on the game (and edition). I have seen some where a special ability is required to even attempt finding/disarming traps (without just setting it off and hoping for the best). I'm not particularly fond of such rulesets.

Quote from: Winterblight;1116273I have traps, but only where it makes sense to have them. Often traps are setting dependant. What makes sense in one setting might be nonsensical in another. But then the same argument could be made for monsters. But, yes, I use traps and rogue characters in my games.

Same, I'll use traps where they seem appropriate. They're good fun if not overused.

I run OD&D via S&W:WB so there's no thief class, but I certainly have traps common in campaigns. Players get creative when the class options are Cleric, Mage and Fighter, both in the use of spells and mundane objects to detect and overcome traps.

I personally like traps that do more than damage. Alarms are fun, but more fun are traps that alter options for the players. AKA, a trap that brings down a wall behind them, or a trap that slides them down a dungeon level, or a trap that teleports them elsewhere, or worse, a trap that only affects one or part of the party.

Rogues are not just good for traps.
They also have their great backstab ability if used properly in sync with other characters in combat.
They also have some very useful knowledge skills.
They're great at sneaking ahead and finding out information in advance.
And yeah, they're good at detecting/removing traps.

For whatever reason, they're one of the most fun classes to play in DnD.

Yes actually from a design perspective I prefer rogues/thieves not to be any better at traps than anyone else. I want the whole party to get involved with traps, not just the thief. Maybe within the game framework is an option to specialise in traps in some way - but it's not just for the rogue. The thief is more a of stealth/scout/ambush specialist, with a few tricks up his sleeve.

I like Thieves, or burglars for those old enough to remember one of the reasons the class was added to D&D in the first place. I especially like, and continue to allow the Thief class from Warlock! the Caltech D&D variant to be included in my D&D games. I never did much like when the class name was changed to "rogue" as always felt that the thieves job was to get into places where the other party members couldn't. That they were the specialist at disarming traps because of the additional protections that are put in place to protect valuable treasures, strongholds & fortifications, and of course, dungeon complexes. It made sense that there was a member of the party that was not as adept at combat as a fighter, but that spent their time training and adding specific skills to stealthily scout, to gain entry or access to, and to break into and enter, and disarm traps, and decipher ancient and magical languages, and solve riddles and cyphers.

Some of our best D&D games have revolved around things the party thieves either did, or failed to do. In one recent game we had a thief who invariantly slept through the night, was surprised often in melee, and was difficult to wake often being the last to defend the party during hostile nocturnal encounters. No late night romps through Taverns, Dens, and Gambling halls for this thief, early to bed, and early to rise... In another game the party thief was the classic kleptomaniac, stealing even from the party members whenever and wherever he could, right up until the time the fighter caught him in the act, and beat him senseless. The party did totally rely on this thief though when it came to gaining intel on a target location, or when they entered the dungeons and were sussing their way through trap infested hallways and rooms.

Regretfully, I often forget to include traps (and when I do they're usually not particularly clever... I can't count the number of times I've run through lazily reflavored versions of the Indiana Jones traps ), however thief and rogue-types have always been valuable in my campaigns; there is still plenty to do! I suppose it also helps that it's fairly easy for any PC to pick up a handful of rogue skills for use in a pinch such as lockpicking, search, sleight of hand or smuggling; due to the open nature of classless systems, it's slightly more straightforward to ease up on designated party roles.