Greetings!
I was reading somewhere where someone said that traps and such are included in dungeon modules simply to give the useless Rogue something to do.
I thought that such an assessment seemed to be pretty cynical. Certainly, yes, it is very nice to have a skilled Rogue in the group able to go forward and disarm traps, and aid in discovering and recovering, fine treasures. I don't however see the inclusion of traps to be merely a mechanical piñata to help provide something entertaining and useful for Rogues to do, so they don't just somehow stand around, twiddling their thumbs.
Historically, ancient ruins and palaces, as well as fortresses and such have in fact been fortified with a variety of traps. It isn't stretching the verisimilitude much to think that in a hypothetical campaign world, various wizards, warlords, barbarian chieftains and priests alike would desire whatever ruins, tombs, and fortresses to be additionally fortified with normal mechanical traps, as well as magical traps.
Having Rogues in the group is a wise policy, and dealing with traps while searching through a variety of ruins, abandoned fortresses, ancient wizard towers, or lost temples, seems to be a very realistic threat and a dynamic that any group should always remain conscious of. On a practical level, a series of strong traps can injure, kill, or otherwise frustrate and delay a group considerably. Rescuing endangered comrades, healing those injured, being forced to deal with wandering monsters or other guardians that have arrived because the party was dealing with some encountered traps--that all creates not only drama and tension, but also generates resource management skills, encouraging tactics and good strategy. All of which is encountered in an environment that makes sense.
Beyond all of that--watch how Rogue characters deal with the stress and pressure of making dice rolls, skill checks, and a variety of decisions and choices while encountering a diversity of traps, with rich treasures in the offing, or a comrade's life hanging in the balance!
Definitely solid entertainment!
Do you make use of Rogues in your groups? How about employing traps and such in your dungeons and fortresses? I have always liked the whole dynamic and the entertainment from it all. Good stuff!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I have traps, but only where it makes sense to have them. Often traps are setting dependant. What makes sense in one setting might be nonsensical in another. But then the same argument could be made for monsters. But, yes, I use traps and rogue characters in my games.
I don't use traps often, but mostly cuz I forget to add them or consider them when crafting dungeons or similar locations, which I see as a personal failing. I have also seen people make the claim that traps exist mostly to give rogues something to do, and I can see where they're coming from (and it might be the case that some DMs use them too frequently), but I tend to agree with the OP that traps have a place in the game and where historically used to guard treasure or sensitive locations from trespassers.
Even today alarms are fairly common, which is a non-lethal variant of traps. If we were playing a contemporary or cyberpunk setting, would you say that the GM adding security systems and computers to a building is doing so just to give hackers something to do? Or would they be an important feature of the genre? Same deal with traps and rogues.
Traps exist because they're a plausible challenge characters are likely to encounter while adventuring and rogues are necessary because not everyone can perform every role in the team. Which is why every team-focused story involving a heist or group of mercenaries breaking into a facility to rescue an asset or retrieve a stolen formula or whatever includes people with a diverse set of skills, including specialists trained to handle specialized situations, like breaking into vaults, hacking security systems or analyzing data to assess their integrity, etc.
Traps I've used in the past (not counting stuff from modules):
The Teeter-totter room from Grimtooth's Traps (that was fun)
Rope bridge with bells and chimes hanging from it (used to alert guards at the opposite end; that was fun)
A cursed ring that hits you with lightning when you put it on (players found it in a pile of ashes, and noped right out of that)
Guillotine doorway from Grimtooth's Traps (players spotted the blood stains on the floor, and noped right out of that)
Pillar of Ooze (easiest trap to avoid; just don't touch it. Of course somebody decided to lick it.)
Hallway of flammable gas (of course the players walked through with lit torches)
Traps I want to use in the future:
Chamber of non-magical silence (a waterfall in a cave with certain acoustic properties causes a non-magical version of a permanent Silence spell)
Sprinkler System (water from the ceilings puts out fires and reveals invisible creatures; I like water-based traps for their potential to ruin spellbooks)
Spell Mimic (what appears to be a spell recorded in a scroll or spellbook isn't what it seems; when the spell is copied, the book or scroll it is copied into becomes a spellcasting mimic)
Quote from: SHARK;1116254I was reading somewhere where someone said that traps and such are included in dungeon modules simply to give the useless Rogue something to do.
The stupid and the willfully ignorant tend to make declarations like that. Anyone can search for traps. Rogues just find them better and can disarm them easier.
Pretty sure dungeons with traps predate rogues and thieves.
Quote from: Joey2k;1116333Pretty sure dungeons with traps predate rogues and thieves.
Yes, but the nature of traps and locked doors changed with the introduction of the thief, or at least the way they were GMed changed. Well, actually, for me it didn't change because by the time I started playing (Holmes) the Thief was part of the game. Locks and trapped chests and such were played as exclusively in the domain of the thief to bypass (well, the fighter with an axe could bypass some of them...). And then I noticed in my own GMing that it really felt like I was presenting challenges for the thief where the only purpose really was to make the thief feel useful. I would run things differently today and allow other ways to bypass locks and traps, but I definitely went through a period where there was circular justification of thieves and traps and locks.
Quote from: VisionStorm;1116277I don't use traps often, but mostly cuz I forget to add them or consider them when crafting dungeons or similar locations, which I see as a personal failing. I have also seen people make the claim that traps exist mostly to give rogues something to do, and I can see where they're coming from (and it might be the case that some DMs use them too frequently), but I tend to agree with the OP that traps have a place in the game and where historically used to guard treasure or sensitive locations from trespassers.
Even today alarms are fairly common, which is a non-lethal variant of traps. If we were playing a contemporary or cyberpunk setting, would you say that the GM adding security systems and computers to a building is doing so just to give hackers something to do? Or would they be an important feature of the genre? Same deal with traps and rogues.
Traps exist because they're a plausible challenge characters are likely to encounter while adventuring and rogues are necessary because not everyone can perform every role in the team. Which is why every team-focused story involving a heist or group of mercenaries breaking into a facility to rescue an asset or retrieve a stolen formula or whatever includes people with a diverse set of skills, including specialists trained to handle specialized situations, like breaking into vaults, hacking security systems or analyzing data to assess their integrity, etc.
Greetings!
That's right, VisionStorm! Different specialists and members of a team can have some very critical skills!
I've always thought Rogues are awesome. Even back in the day, as *Thieves*;)
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Omega;1116332The stupid and the willfully ignorant tend to make declarations like that. Anyone can search for traps. Rogues just find them better and can disarm them easier.
Depends on the game (and edition). I have seen some where a special ability is required to even attempt finding/disarming traps (without just setting it off and hoping for the best). I'm not particularly fond of such rulesets.
Quote from: Winterblight;1116273I have traps, but only where it makes sense to have them. Often traps are setting dependant. What makes sense in one setting might be nonsensical in another. But then the same argument could be made for monsters. But, yes, I use traps and rogue characters in my games.
Same, I'll use traps where they seem appropriate. They're good fun if not overused.
I run OD&D via S&W:WB so there's no thief class, but I certainly have traps common in campaigns. Players get creative when the class options are Cleric, Mage and Fighter, both in the use of spells and mundane objects to detect and overcome traps.
I personally like traps that do more than damage. Alarms are fun, but more fun are traps that alter options for the players. AKA, a trap that brings down a wall behind them, or a trap that slides them down a dungeon level, or a trap that teleports them elsewhere, or worse, a trap that only affects one or part of the party.
Rogues are not just good for traps.
They also have their great backstab ability if used properly in sync with other characters in combat.
They also have some very useful knowledge skills.
They're great at sneaking ahead and finding out information in advance.
And yeah, they're good at detecting/removing traps.
For whatever reason, they're one of the most fun classes to play in DnD.
Yes actually from a design perspective I prefer rogues/thieves not to be any better at traps than anyone else. I want the whole party to get involved with traps, not just the thief. Maybe within the game framework is an option to specialise in traps in some way - but it's not just for the rogue. The thief is more a of stealth/scout/ambush specialist, with a few tricks up his sleeve.
I like Thieves, or burglars for those old enough to remember one of the reasons the class was added to D&D in the first place. I especially like, and continue to allow the Thief class from Warlock! the Caltech D&D variant to be included in my D&D games. I never did much like when the class name was changed to "rogue" as always felt that the thieves job was to get into places where the other party members couldn't. That they were the specialist at disarming traps because of the additional protections that are put in place to protect valuable treasures, strongholds & fortifications, and of course, dungeon complexes. It made sense that there was a member of the party that was not as adept at combat as a fighter, but that spent their time training and adding specific skills to stealthily scout, to gain entry or access to, and to break into and enter, and disarm traps, and decipher ancient and magical languages, and solve riddles and cyphers.
Some of our best D&D games have revolved around things the party thieves either did, or failed to do. In one recent game we had a thief who invariantly slept through the night, was surprised often in melee, and was difficult to wake often being the last to defend the party during hostile nocturnal encounters. No late night romps through Taverns, Dens, and Gambling halls for this thief, early to bed, and early to rise... In another game the party thief was the classic kleptomaniac, stealing even from the party members whenever and wherever he could, right up until the time the fighter caught him in the act, and beat him senseless. The party did totally rely on this thief though when it came to gaining intel on a target location, or when they entered the dungeons and were sussing their way through trap infested hallways and rooms.
Regretfully, I often forget to include traps (and when I do they're usually not particularly clever... I can't count the number of times I've run through lazily reflavored versions of the Indiana Jones traps :o), however thief and rogue-types have always been valuable in my campaigns; there is still plenty to do! I suppose it also helps that it's fairly easy for any PC to pick up a handful of rogue skills for use in a pinch such as lockpicking, search, sleight of hand or smuggling; due to the open nature of classless systems, it's slightly more straightforward to ease up on designated party roles.
Quote from: danskmacabre;1116607Rogues are not just good for traps.
They also have their great backstab ability if used properly in sync with other characters in combat.
They also have some very useful knowledge skills.
They're great at sneaking ahead and finding out information in advance.
And yeah, they're good at detecting/removing traps.
For whatever reason, they're one of the most fun classes to play in DnD.
Stabby-stabby is one of my favorite uses for rogues, and proof rogues aren't just for trap finding. Whenever I make a rogue I tend to go for the stealthy scout build focused on sniping, stabbing and spying. Only thing rogues aren't good for is tanking.
Quote from: Antiquation!;1116694Regretfully, I often forget to include traps (and when I do they're usually not particularly clever... I can't count the number of times I've run through lazily reflavored versions of the Indiana Jones traps :o), however thief and rogue-types have always been valuable in my campaigns; there is still plenty to do! I suppose it also helps that it's fairly easy for any PC to pick up a handful of rogue skills for use in a pinch such as lockpicking, search, sleight of hand or smuggling; due to the open nature of classless systems, it's slightly more straightforward to ease up on designated party roles.
Yeah, I need to make some trap tables or something one of these days, maybe pin some sticky notes on my books, cuz I often forget them too. Locked stuff is more common, cuz it's easier to remember people don't just leave values within easy reach--I just need to remember sometimes they use traps too. Strategic sneaking, out of the rogue-type characters' repertoire, tends to see the most use on my campaigns, though.
I prefer classless systems as well, but often end up playing D&D regardless, where class can be a factor (though, not as much in recent editions).
Quote from: VisionStorm;1116715Stabby-stabby is one of my favorite uses for rogues, and proof rogues aren't just for trap finding. Whenever I make a rogue I tend to go for the stealthy scout build focused on sniping, stabbing and spying. Only thing rogues aren't good for is tanking.
Yeah, I need to make some trap tables or something one of these days, maybe pin some sticky notes on my books, cuz I often forget them too. Locked stuff is more common, cuz it's easier to remember people don't just leave values within easy reach--I just need to remember sometimes they use traps too. Strategic sneaking, out of the rogue-type characters' repertoire, tends to see the most use on my campaigns, though.
Yes, for sure! I often find when I have a player build a thief-y type, they often end up doing a lot of filching and things too. Players do love stealing other peoples stuff... whether it's valuable or not. In my last campaign, one PC got sour at another and spent 6 sessions in a row secretly pick pocketing her character's cigarettes over and over again. Then the thief got in a car crash, the victim's PC went to drag him out of the wreck, finding her crumpled smokes and tobacco dribbling out of his pockets... caught red-handed! Luckily he was already unconscious so she had little cause to beat the tar out of him, at least at that time. Later she did knock him out cold over a separate dispute (her PC was a boxer, his... wasn't)... :)
Quote from: VisionStorm;1116715I prefer classless systems as well, but often end up playing D&D regardless, where class can be a factor (though, not as much in recent editions).
Yeah, recent editions of D&D seem to be more forgiving about that. Of course, it can become a problem for certain player types if there isn't any niche protection
at all. Though it seems to vary, some do love playing the "we're all surgeons! Wait no, we're all butlers!"-type campaigns.
I enjoy class-based differences, and I love Thieves as an archetype. That said, I don't much enjoy Thieves in games where they are essentially useless, but as a homebrew guy I'd rather change the game to make better Thieves than eliminate them.
In my homebrew, "finding and removing traps" is generalized into Searching and Precision skills. Everyone can do it; Thieves are just much better at it. Thieves are also the Poison experts in my game, a facet reserved for them (and generally a carefully guarded knowledge).
I thought I'd miss the Thief when running S&W:WB, but it was amazing how swiftly the players adapted to No Thieves / All Thieves and suddenly, the Mage was doing sneaky stuff since he's not in armor, and the Cleric poked around for traps because he was wise and wearing armor, while Fighters wore the Elven Cloak and Boots because it made them great scouts and able to launch surprise attacks.
What's a rogue? We use thieves.
Their climb sheer walls ability is worth the class alone. So many uses.
Used some traps tonight placed by a Kobold Trapsmith from the Tome of Beasts. First few were bypassed easily, but then the paladin stepped on the false step that ignited a choke bomb of smoking fumes...and then stumbled forward into the (now obscured by smoke) tripwire that dropped a skullpopper (weight swinging on a rope) that smacked her and knocked her down a few steps. It was pretty amusing to everyone at the table.
I rarely make traps very complex. I tend to prefer simple traps, if no more than as a matter of emulation. There needs to be a very good reason for a very complicated trap.
Big Indiana Jones fan so I love traps and environmental hazards. The wife and I are going to see Jumanji 2 tonight and I'd be hard pressed to call any of those characters thieves/rogues. Allan Quartermain, Jack Colton, and just about any pulp adventurer all fit the bill. Also hardly any of them actually disarm the traps.
A veteran GI in Vietnam would hardly qualify as a thief/rogue either but were dealing with detecting/disarming/setting traps and navigating difficult terrain/ruins similar to anything out of D&D.
Thieves are just where those skills got codified and now they're a sacred cow.
Greetings!
Well, certainly the Pulp traditions embrace vivid foundations for Rogues and a particular set of skills. Such ideas translate fairly well even into a medievalesque, fantastic milieu. I am also reminded that even within our own modern times, in the military, we have embraced some of the imagery and role exemplified by the Rogue. In the Marine Corps, for example, in the Infantry, we always have a member of each four-man Fire Team designated as the Scout. A Fire Team is composed of a Fire Team Leader, a Scout, a Grenadier--(Grenadiers are Marines that are equipped with a grenade launcher)--and a SAW Gunner (Machine Gunner). Three such four-man Fire Teams make up a Marine Infantry Squad, led by a Squad Leader. Marine Scouts in the field often perform roles very similar to what the Rogue does in D&D. Scouting, reconnaissance, disarming traps, intel gathering, setting up and coordinating ambushes, as well as leading the rest of the Marine squad through difficult terrain. While there are not strict physical standards required for Scouts which differentiate them from their fellow Marines, in practice the Scouts are selected or encouraged from men that are generally smaller in stature, naturally quiet and stealthy, talented in swift, graceful movement, keenly observant, and generally more skilled in maneuvering and celebrated for their agility and woodcraft.
D&D Rogues seem to fit the bill fairly well, even from a modern operational philosophy. The Adventuring Party, often composed of 4 to a dozen members, seems to have a need for such a character, or several, in view of their typical escapades and missions, both in above-ground ruins, as well as subterranean dungeons and cavern complexes.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
In terms of actual trap usage I like the big flashy traps that are complicated (due to reading too much Grimtoof in my formative RPG years) but agree that they are really hard to justify. I just wrapped up Tomb of Annihilation and they made a half-hearted attempt at explaining how everything was powered and reset but was still really flimsy.
If you aren't doing the dungeonpunk of 3-5 editions then staying with the more realistic claymore/punji pit/tripwire type stuff makes more sense. Apart from traps that are literally just magic like glyphs or snake sigils, etc.