I am no fan of Pathfinder, but I acknowledge its success. Clearly Paizo is selling lots of books and PDFs. However, everything you could possibly need to make any character for levels 1-20 is in the free online Pathfinder SRD. And on the GM side, there are more monsters and GM stuff in the SRD than you'll ever need. It's all there. You don't need to ever buy a book...but Paizo is selling lots of books.
Why?
Could this money-making model work for a non-D&D game?
I think most gamers still use books and they are nice to look at. Some of the prettiest books ever made for RPGs.
SRDs tend to be minimal with almost no fluff or explanation, which makes them harder to get to grips with. An online SRD is also a bit harder to reference than a book, even with a mobile device. Pathfinder being a monster book, it's probably easier to remember that a rule is about 1/2 inch into the page count than actually use page numbers.
Also, SRDs are advertising - lets potential customers get a look at what they're buying into. A good alternative to pirated soft copies from the publisher's viewpoint, although of course piracy is one of the best form of advertising there is.
I run my game from the SRD when I'm writing up things ahead of time, but during play there is just no substitute for a book in your hand.
Plus, they keep crapping up the SRD with all this third party garbage.
Quote from: Spinachcat;481547I am no fan of Pathfinder, but I acknowledge its success. Clearly Paizo is selling lots of books and PDFs. However, everything you could possibly need to make any character for levels 1-20 is in the free online Pathfinder SRD. And on the GM side, there are more monsters and GM stuff in the SRD than you'll ever need. It's all there. You don't need to ever buy a book...but Paizo is selling lots of books.
Why?
Some people like the pretty art.
Some people want to support the folks making the game.
Some people prefer to have a hard copy.
I'm essentially no longer buying physical books. The only exception are RPG manuals: It's a lot easier to reference multiple physical books simultaneously. And there's lots of stuff that I can actually find in a physical rulebook faster and easier than I can find it even with the search functions in most SRDs.
(With that being said, the only time I'm referencing physical books any more is when I'm actually at the game table. When I'm prepping games I'm pretty much glued to the online SRDs and PDFs.)
Gamers tend to get bored of the same game over time.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Spinachcat;481547I am no fan of Pathfinder, but I acknowledge its success. Clearly Paizo is selling lots of books and PDFs. However, everything you could possibly need to make any character for levels 1-20 is in the free online Pathfinder SRD. And on the GM side, there are more monsters and GM stuff in the SRD than you'll ever need. It's all there. You don't need to ever buy a book...but Paizo is selling lots of books.
Why?
Could this money-making model work for a non-D&D game?
I don't know about other people but I want something I can leaf through at the table and can physically in my hand. I want a product, not a document.
Another issue for me is I have a hard time reading on a computer screen. I can do it for about 30 minutes before getting a headache. So while I am happy to use the SRD once in a while, I'd much rather have the actual book.
In terms of a business model, i think it works great for them. It ensures there is a large number of other publishers actively supporting the core product, which I think just keeps bringing more people to the table.
So...people enjoy the page-flipping, and sometimes find the computer screen hard to look at for long periods (funny, since I have the same problem with glossy paper).
So when e-readers provide better bookmarking, faster page turns, and a cleaner screen, everybody will be aboard, right?
Quote from: RPGPundit;481594Gamers tend to get bored of the same game over time.
I'm spinning this off on a thread of its own, as this is relevant to my interests.
This isn't about pdfs, this is about SRDs.
-clash
Specifically, the Pathfinder SRD is unusual in being online rather than an editable document like most others. That alone makes it harder to use - it's much easier to print off a document, even if most SRDs have very little formatting. I got a copy of the core book in the end because it's just too much trouble looking through the web-SRD.
But an SRD is not really a substitute for a rulebook even if you are into electronic format. They are meant to be used by 3rd party publishers in developing supplements, not by gamers looking for a set of rules to play with.
SRDs, as has been said, are adverts for a game. Want to try a game? Pick up the SRD and play a few sessions. Still like it? Then buy the other supplements.
However, they encourage other publishers to extend a game. Small companies don't have the resources or time to produce many supplements per year. Having an SRD available, and an OGL, allows other small companies to produce things for the game. What's the advantage of this? After all it doesn't make a profit for the first company. It keeps the momentum going and allows companies to build product ranges and to link supplements together.
Quote from: Novastar;481614So...people enjoy the page-flipping, and sometimes find the computer screen hard to look at for long periods (funny, since I have the same problem with glossy paper).
So when e-readers provide better bookmarking, faster page turns, and a cleaner screen, everybody will be aboard, right?
I could see a lot of value in a game doc that did it right. By that, I mean something more than a bookmarked PDF - a supplement presented in a way that wouldn't just be nicely cross-referenced, but would allow you to expand on it with your own notes, and group/reorder information based on your own criteria. Say, you have a city with various factions, persons and locales... and if you wanted to run a large-scale confrontation between The Dealers of the Whelming and The Church of the Briny Depths, you could easily cluster the available blocks of information to suit that purpose, then break it up and build another, location-centred cluster to run a street chase. Sort of like what Google+ seems to be doing in social networking, but with a document.
Now that would be added value. (And would deserve extra compensation for the publisher/author.)
QuoteI am no fan of Pathfinder, but I acknowledge its success.
And that makes you wiser than most.....;D
But to answer your question from my perspective. I have the full subscription for PF because I prefer the book in my hands.
I am not a fan of all the technological crap so a book is the only thing that will suffice. Technological crap is not allowed at my table so if they have the SRD only on laptop, the players are SOL.
Quote from: Novastar;481614So when e-readers provide better bookmarking, faster page turns, and a cleaner screen, everybody will be aboard, right?
100% .. though I would say the screen is there for me. The other functionality not so much. And as much as I love my eReader, tablet, laptop, and my phone, none of them have even come close to a replacement to having a physical book to use and share around a table while gaming.
However, on the specifics of an SRD, it is invaluable when I am sitting on my arse on the bus for coming up with campaign ideas and need a quick reference (yay for smartphones) .
Quote from: Spinachcat;481547I am no fan of Pathfinder, but I acknowledge its success. Clearly Paizo is selling lots of books and PDFs. However, everything you could possibly need to make any character for levels 1-20 is in the free online Pathfinder SRD. And on the GM side, there are more monsters and GM stuff in the SRD than you'll ever need. It's all there. You don't need to ever buy a book...but Paizo is selling lots of books.
Why?
Could this money-making model work for a non-D&D game?
I honestly don't think it is a money-making model for D&D games, either, but it does help generate interest.
Here are my possible plans: Make a very, very barebones document with task resolution and character generation. Lots of charts and tables, very few paragraphs or lists.
Task resolution would include spells/skills/meta-quirks, but only the mechanics to resolve. No lists, or no extensive lists anyway. Maybe a shortish list of skills you would expect in any game or genre; literacy, weapon use, tech skills, and a few example skill packages like martial arts that incorporate hand-to-hand, weapon and defence skills as a demo of how skill packages work.
Character generation would describe how to create and the mechanics for improvement. Maybe a demonstration level or two, but nothing extensive. Examples on how to package skills/meta-quirks to make a 'class'. Bog standard fantasy races; Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, with a few example racial skills for each. Big, big caveats on both of these that none of it is engraved in stone, and actual published rules may modify, contradict or (very, very rarely) utterly discard certain parts.
Finally, a miscellaneous section for creating opponents that aren't just hastily cobbled together NPCs from the first two parts of the rules. A couple of examples of special attacks and defences in a table or two, a broad idea on how many attacks and what range of damage is appropriate based on the players, convert to pdf, and drop it on an unsuspecting internet.
Wrap the whole thing up with zero art, slap a Creative Commons by-nc-sa sticker on it and send it out the door with a whopping $0 price tag. Make your own content, or wait for stuff to get published. Keep a few printouts handy; it should be kept to under 24pages, but with proper formatting, there will be no problems handing out the character generation part for everyone, as well as the task resolution charts and whatnot. No worrying about someone forgetting their pdf/laptop, or simply not buying the book/pdf in the first place.
It's still in the very rough planning stages, but any kind of stripped down rules like that should absolutely be treated as marketing material. Much like movie trailers show the exciting bits and video game demos offer a level or two for getting people interested, it should be fairly bare-bones. Not even as much as most quick start games offer, just the essentials to get a complete stranger up to speed with the basics of getting things done at the table.
Quote from: Novastar;481614So when e-readers provide better bookmarking, faster page turns, and a cleaner screen, everybody will be aboard, right?
Possibly. But probably not.
Like I say, for works which I read from cover-to-cover I'm already pretty much completely converted to e-books. But there are too many things I do with RPG manuals that an electronic interface is unlikely to duplicate any time soon.
Partly it's the quick-flipping to a specific "region" in the book and then rapidly narrowing it down. Very good indexing, Google searching, and hte like could improve that. But more importantly it's the "multiple documents" problem.
A simple example from my game last night:
- A copy of the module flipped open to the current page.
- A copy of the map.
- A copy of the rulebook opened to the rules I was currently using.
- A copy of the Monster Manual I was keeping open to the two stat blocks I was using (often looking at both pages simultaneously).
- A copy of a different monster book open to a different stat block.
- A copy of the Spell Compendium flipped open to a spell that one of my monsters could use.
In addition to that I had my campaign status document and the combat log on the table in front of me.
This is not unusual. Duplicating this kind of utility is not just a matter of "better bookmarking" or search functions. It requires ubiquitous (and cheap) digital displays. That'll happen some day; but we're still at least a decade away from it. (Probably more.)