My how the mighty have fallen. Par the usual course it seems that either Kevin rewrote major sections of the book or the Freelancer missed the point of what Lazlo is on Rifts Earth. Beyond the hardcore fans most fans imo will consider this one of the worst Rifts books. If what the review says is true much of the manuscript makes no sense. For example one of the complaints is despite Lazlo being the equivalent of Wikipedia for magic NO one will sell magic spells no matter how harmless for fear it might be used against Lazlo or against someone else. Despite being surrounded by enemies they only just fielded an major army in the last decade. Sigh. Well at least the company has been in business in the last 30 years the review:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1250706991690870/permalink/3483051988456348/

Does Palladium Books or by extension Kevin do actual editing anymore. Something many fans were waiting years for and we get a manuscript that makes no sense and routinely contradicts itself.

Sounds like a Typical Rifts book.

Quote from: sureshot on December 06, 2020, 01:56:06 AM
My how the mighty have fallen. Par the usual course it seems that either Kevin rewrote major sections of the book or the Freelancer missed the point of what Lazlo is on Rifts Earth. Beyond the hardcore fans most fans imo will consider this one of the worst Rifts books. If what the review says is true much of the manuscript makes no sense. For example one of the complaints is despite Lazlo being the equivalent of Wikipedia for magic NO one will sell magic spells no matter how harmless for fear it might be used against Lazlo or against someone else. Despite being surrounded by enemies they only just fielded an major army in the last decade. Sigh. Well at least the company has been in business in the last 30 years the review:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1250706991690870/permalink/3483051988456348/

Does Palladium Books or by extension Kevin do actual editing anymore. Something many fans were waiting years for and we get a manuscript that makes no sense and routinely contradicts itself.

  Well, I find expecting anything that looks at all like a real world relation to human behavior or logistics in rifts  is an exercise in futility.  The coalition as a cheap ripoff merge of the Empire from Star wars and the Imperium of man from 40k is beyond nonsense as well.  They have more super tech soldiers from a small region of the post apocalypse of the USA, despite not allowing soldiers or citizens to read or write?  I get the author wants to paint them as nazis, but reality is, there would about zero need to get humans to get together and have a great deal of animosity for non human invaders, or even from non humans who are here not of their will and are non violent.  Resources after an apocalypse would be tight (well, unless you are one of the military super powers..) and no one is going to welcome a new arrival who has unknown allegiance or intentions to compete with their kids for a meal.   

   I use the Coalition as a force of nature in the background.  Like a bland federal government, that DOES NOT declare war on magic super powers, since that would in anything that used the reality of the rifts world end in all the leadership of the coalition in a day.  Why do magic users not simply hire a dragon to teleport where the emperor is, and kill him and all his staff in about 10 seconds?  A force  that bans something, usually does so because it wants to be the only owners of such a thing, so if the CS were magic using and looking to regulate/get rid of magic in the "wild" that would make sense.  But fearing it and then not using any element of it to counter magic?  You can have all the psi stalkers around to sniff out the polymorphed dragon you want, but it will not save the 100-200 people it teleports in to slaughter in assassination missions. 

   I always felt KS created something interesting, but completely bonkers and not just in the mish mash, but in applying any sort of consistent behavior to the people in the world as well.  I had the books back in the mid 90's, and I enjoyed the concepts and played the game a bit.  I find Savage Rifts plays better to my taste, but now a days the whole meta has the CS being much more the overt bad guys in that setting instead of a force of nature in the background (which that shift started during the whole meta conquering idea back then too). 

   To stick to the OP, I will likely keep getting the Savage Rifts supplements to the Rifts world, but I gave up on the parent system a long time ago.  Back then when KS would SWEAR he never played dungeons and dragons and only made up his own games from the start.  At least now in interviews he admits to playing D&D.

Quote from: oggsmash on December 06, 2020, 08:45:19 AM

Quote from: sureshot on December 06, 2020, 01:56:06 AM
My how the mighty have fallen. Par the usual course it seems that either Kevin rewrote major sections of the book or the Freelancer missed the point of what Lazlo is on Rifts Earth. Beyond the hardcore fans most fans imo will consider this one of the worst Rifts books. If what the review says is true much of the manuscript makes no sense. For example one of the complaints is despite Lazlo being the equivalent of Wikipedia for magic NO one will sell magic spells no matter how harmless for fear it might be used against Lazlo or against someone else. Despite being surrounded by enemies they only just fielded an major army in the last decade. Sigh. Well at least the company has been in business in the last 30 years the review:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1250706991690870/permalink/3483051988456348/

Does Palladium Books or by extension Kevin do actual editing anymore. Something many fans were waiting years for and we get a manuscript that makes no sense and routinely contradicts itself.

  Well, I find expecting anything that looks at all like a real world relation to human behavior or logistics in rifts  is an exercise in futility.  The coalition as a cheap ripoff merge of the Empire from Star wars and the Imperium of man from 40k is beyond nonsense as well.  They have more super tech soldiers from a small region of the post apocalypse of the USA, despite not allowing soldiers or citizens to read or write?  I get the author wants to paint them as nazis, but reality is, there would about zero need to get humans to get together and have a great deal of animosity for non human invaders, or even from non humans who are here not of their will and are non violent.  Resources after an apocalypse would be tight (well, unless you are one of the military super powers..) and no one is going to welcome a new arrival who has unknown allegiance or intentions to compete with their kids for a meal. 

Like anything from Rifts, I find it helps to heavily "interpret" the setting, and ignore some of Kevin's indulgences.

My CS has outlawed certain literature, but not literacy, for example. Being too smart for your own good is possible, but being able to write your name won't get you shot.

I like my Rifts much more post-apoc and less superhero/sci-fi ultratech. Enclaves of magic or tech are rare and insulated. Extending yourself gets you eaten by demons or monsters. The CS puts up the best front, but can only project their power so far.

Quote
   I use the Coalition as a force of nature in the background.  Like a bland federal government, that DOES NOT declare war on magic super powers, since that would in anything that used the reality of the rifts world end in all the leadership of the coalition in a day.  Why do magic users not simply hire a dragon to teleport where the emperor is, and kill him and all his staff in about 10 seconds?  A force  that bans something, usually does so because it wants to be the only owners of such a thing, so if the CS were magic using and looking to regulate/get rid of magic in the "wild" that would make sense.  But fearing it and then not using any element of it to counter magic?  You can have all the psi stalkers around to sniff out the polymorphed dragon you want, but it will not save the 100-200 people it teleports in to slaughter in assassination missions. 

   I always felt KS created something interesting, but completely bonkers and not just in the mish mash, but in applying any sort of consistent behavior to the people in the world as well.  I had the books back in the mid 90's, and I enjoyed the concepts and played the game a bit.  I find Savage Rifts plays better to my taste, but now a days the whole meta has the CS being much more the overt bad guys in that setting instead of a force of nature in the background (which that shift started during the whole meta conquering idea back then too). 

   To stick to the OP, I will likely keep getting the Savage Rifts supplements to the Rifts world, but I gave up on the parent system a long time ago.  Back then when KS would SWEAR he never played dungeons and dragons and only made up his own games from the start.  At least now in interviews he admits to playing D&D.

Well, firstly Dragons in Rifts aren't that powerful. They have a lot of MDC, but don't do so much mega-damage. A full conversion Borg or CS Juicer could give them a run for their money, and the CS has tons of them plus Skelebots handy as security and guards.

A much better assassin would be one of those Lasae Demons, that are just a few inches tall, but are MDC creatures that do mega-damage. One of those boogers could hide in Prosek's bathroom a kill him while he's taking a shit. But then that's a problem with the MD system. And it would have to sneak past all the Dog Boys and Psi-Stalkers.

But really, the problem isn't magic. The problem is teleportation, specifically. If you put teleportation on the table, without some serious restrictions, you run into all kinds of silliness, like Transporter Bombs...

I love the Rifts setting but I hate the Palladium ruleset, so I only engage with it nowadays through Savage Worlds. Considering their link to the Tomorrow Legion, I have little doubt that Lazlo will be refined and polished back into a land of wonder, goodness, and better-than-you-at-everything-and-morally-superior-too by the time it's fully detailed Savage Rifts.

I was no expecting a "land of wonder, goodness, and better-than-you-at-everything-and-morally-superior-too" that is boring. It seems that the book was written by two people. The original freelancer and Kevin S and the second either could be bothered to read the manuscript or thought we would notice how his so called "vision" would ruin the book.

Unless the original reviewer is lying the book makes no sense.

-Welcome to Lazlo the Walmart of magic...don't expect us to sell you any of it because you might attacks us with r hurt other people.

-Unlike that evil RACIST CS we accept anyone and everyone intoi our magical school. We just make it 100 times more harder when the CS is willing to field cannon fodder.

-WE don't need an army because of our moral superiority that alone will protect us from the CS and all our other enemies. (Tolkeen Is wiped put by the CS). Shit shit we do need an army lets field one

-They are presented as being able to product the magical version of tech with the manufacturing abilities to do so yet because lets make inferior stuff because not of any kind of sense because of reasons and feels.

I could go on yet for fuck sake what is Kevin S thinking.

  Dragons do tons of damage, can polymorph to any shape and no, a juicer or borg has no chance against a dragon.  Do you mean a dragon hatchling?

Quote from: oggsmash on December 06, 2020, 12:46:24 PM
  Dragons do tons of damage, can polymorph to any shape and no, a juicer or borg has no chance against a dragon.  Do you mean a dragon hatchling?

No, I mean an adult dragon. Take a Great Horned Dragon, advertised as " the most feared and powerful of all dragons".
Does 6D6 mega-damage with a punch (dragon punch!) or it's fire breath. That's about the damage of a heavy firearm like a rail gun or plasma gun.
It can do 1D6x10 + 20 MD with a power punch that takes two attacks. A mini-missile volley or burst* from a heavy weapon does more.
*Rifts and burst rules, another can of worms...

A full conversion borg (running from memory here) can have about 700 MDC with full body conversion and heavy borg armor. It can soak quite a few of even the power punches from a dragon. And a Juicer has substantial bonuses to dodge it's attacks.

Toe to toe, the Dragon does have an average of 4,500 MDC, which means it takes a ton of damage to knock it down, even with focused fire from heavy weapons. But the CS usually deploys squads of troops. I wouldn't be shocked to see a squad of skelebots and a pair of full conversion borg guards handy at any important CS person's "lair".

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 06, 2020, 01:19:01 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on December 06, 2020, 12:46:24 PM
  Dragons do tons of damage, can polymorph to any shape and no, a juicer or borg has no chance against a dragon.  Do you mean a dragon hatchling?

No, I mean an adult dragon. Take a Great Horned Dragon, advertised as " the most feared and powerful of all dragons".
Does 6D6 mega-damage with a punch (dragon punch!) or it's fire breath. That's about the damage of a heavy firearm like a rail gun or plasma gun.
It can do 1D6x10 + 20 MD with a power punch that takes two attacks. A mini-missile volley or burst* from a heavy weapon does more.
*Rifts and burst rules, another can of worms...

A full conversion borg (running from memory here) can have about 700 MDC with full body conversion and heavy borg armor. It can soak quite a few of even the power punches from a dragon. And a Juicer has substantial bonuses to dodge it's attacks.

Toe to toe, the Dragon does have an average of 4,500 MDC, which means it takes a ton of damage to knock it down, even with focused fire from heavy weapons. But the CS usually deploys squads of troops. I wouldn't be shocked to see a squad of skelebots and a pair of full conversion borg guards handy at any important CS person's "lair".

They have zero chance of keeping the emperor alive in his nightie when that dragon pops in on him.  And if the fight turns south for the dragon?  He teleports away and the second one pops in.  There will not be squads of anything in the emperor's bedroom.  Juicer or borg have no chance.   I would also assume a dragon teleporting in for such a mission is going to have a massive gun.

And I am also assuming just a dragon popping into the bedroom.  Why would a shifter not be able to just open a portal and we have a whole army of demons and dragons come piling into the bed with the good emperor.  Who effectively has NO countermeasures to magic.  You even said, they can just put a tac nuke in his room, and he is done.  The whole idea of a war against such a force is just dumb. 

I remember reading somewhere that all major Coalition cities especially Chi-town are immune to that kind of tactic. Kind of convenient don't you think.

Part two of the review slightly better yet either the freelancer or Kevin keep forgetting that Lazlo since the beginning is presented as being the magical version of a technological powerhouse. so why are their creations worse than the regular tech versions:

Rifts – Lazlo Raw Review, Part 2

This is the second part of my review of the Lazlo (raw) book. This has been written in the expectation that the reader has already read the first part. As such, it will contain spoilers. Out of respect for Palladium's wishes, this review, like the first part, will use paraphrasing in place of exact quotes from the material.

A vital part of nation-state is its economy. That fact is axiomatic and so I am pleased that the writer clearly took the time and put thought into the economy of Lazlo. Yes, I feel that some parts of it don't make much sense but one part that he gets exactly right is how Lazlo's position on the Great Lakes would make it a major shipping and transshipping hub. Indeed, he states that a little over a quarter of its annual income is generated by virtue of being a major trade hub (page 42). The writer also gave thought to the fact that, with their magic and techno-magic, Lazlo can easily engage in trade with other dimensions as well as act as a natural shipping and transshipping hub on an interdimensional scale. In that way, it is much like Center in The Three Galaxies. This is one part of the book that I have much praise for.

Another area covered by the book is new OCCs. A total of six are presented however four of them amount to small variations of the same concept; Peace Officer/Detective. One is a standard Peace Officer type, the OCC that would be responding to traffic accidents, robberies, domestic violence calls and other common crimes and situations. The next one combines the functions of Peace Officer Sergeant/Lieutenant and a Detective. Two of the others are also what amounts to Peace Officers but they are specialists focused on dealing with ghosts and other entities. One is what amounts to a Stealth Mage. Members of that OCC are for the most part, members of the Lazlo Intelligence Agency. The last one is a TW Borg.

I'd like to expand on that point for a moment. At first, it seems that having four different variations on Peace Officer seems redundant and to be fair, there is some truth to that viewpoint. They could be reduced by making them different MOS skill packages of the same OCC. That said, there is a point to them that makes sense for Lazlo. According to previously published material, just about every time a rift is opened, on purpose or accidently, something unwanted comes out. The writer clearly remembered this and put thought into how Lazlo, a society and nation with high levels of magic, psionics and technology, would respond. Two of the OCCs are that response as they are specialized anti-ghost/entity agents They are roughly analogous to the Coalition's NTSET OCCs, such as the NTSET Protector and the NTSET Psi-Hound (WB 11, pages 187-189). As with the attention to detail on Lazlo' economy, I commend the writer on this aspect. Yes, I think the number of OCCs could be reduced but it was good to see that thought was put into this aspect of the game mechanics/setting.

My reaction to the TW Borg OCC is mixed. On the one hand, it is good to see that some thought was put into the concept of how a full conversion borg would be constructed by a nation-state with access to high technology and magic/techno-wizardry. On the other hand, while clearly some thought went into it, it fails to fully realize the potential of those respective disciplines. The result was a borg that is in some ways inferior to existing borgs that rely strictly on technology and have no magic components whatsoever.

For example, compare the lowest speed attribute for a Combat Borg from Rifts Ultimate Edition (page 47) to the maximum possible for the Lazlo TW Borg; 132 (90MPH) Vs 88 (60 MPH), respectively. Why is there any difference between the two? The basic frame of each borg is or should be, based on technology. Technology that is well known, widely distributed and readily attainable. As I noted previously, there is absolutely no logical reason why Lazlo's technology would lag so far behind Northern Gun or the Coalition States. Therefore the basic chassis of a combat borg for Lazlo should be virtually identical to anything that the CS or NG can produce.

The TW Borg OCC is riddled with inconsistencies and just plain short comings just like the terrible speed rating. Another example is an optional flight system. If installed, it gives the TW Borg the ability to fly 75MPH (150MPH on ley-lines) at a maximum altitude of 10,000ft. (page 126). Now compare that to a bionic jetpack from the Bionics Sourcebook, which allows a borg to travel at 200MPH on or off a ley-line, at an altitude of 6000ft. Yes, the maximum altitude of the TW Borg is superior however as a matter of practical tactical ability, it would be better to have the extra speed, rather than the higher altitude. The point is that since Lazlo has both high technology and magic, they should be able to combine the best of both, not suffer such downgrades in performance.

I believe that these lackluster aspects of the TW Borg stems from the approach of the writer, which seems to be start with magic, then apply technology rather than start with technology, then apply magic. That may seem like semantics but it isn't. If you start with magic and then slap on technology, you get what we have seen time and again throughout the books; inferior equipment, almost always looking shoddy and with no standardization. If you start with technology and then look for places where a considered application of magic could be used to enhance the native abilities of technology, you get a product that is superior to pure technology or pure magic. That is what we should be seeing from Lazlo across the board but we aren't.

Case in point, the Lazlo TW Borg isn't a standardized chassis (page 120). There is simply no reason for that. Lazlo has the benefit of decades of their own, organic TW development, plus access to several TW researchers from Tolkeen as well as access to technology from not just across the planet but from other dimensions. That means they have the benefit of learning from all those other people's mistakes, rather than have to make their own mistakes and learn that way. In other words, they already know what works and what doesn't. Refining a design from prototype to production model should have been ridiculously easy for them. We shouldn't be seeing what can only be described as a prototype. We should be seeing a fully realized and developed model of Borg.

Imagine for instance if the TW Borg had started with the standard, commonly available borg chassis. The one that is already faster even at the lowest end of its performance envelope. Now add a TW module to it that capitalizes on the "Full Throttle" spell from Mercenary Adventures. It increase the speed of a vehicle by 40%. By building that into a TW module and installing that into a TW Borg chassis as either a built in or optional component, the result would be a borg capable of running 40% faster than a pure technology borg. That is a significant performance increase by any measure. Unfortunately this book, like the ones before it with regards to techno-wizardry, focuses on magic first, technology second.

I feel it is important to say again, to keep in mind this is the first draft of the book. Palladium has stated that upfront. So as with any first or rough draft, there was bound to be errors and missteps. I am hopeful that Palladium will consider this review to be what I intended it to be; constructive criticism. An opportunity to take a look at their rough draft and make the necessary adjustments and refinements to eventually publish a fully matured and thoughtful book.

Quote from: oggsmash on December 06, 2020, 01:37:22 PM
And I am also assuming just a dragon popping into the bedroom.  Why would a shifter not be able to just open a portal and we have a whole army of demons and dragons come piling into the bed with the good emperor.  Who effectively has NO countermeasures to magic.  You even said, they can just put a tac nuke in his room, and he is done.  The whole idea of a war against such a force is just dumb.

The whole idea of such a force that can teleport whatever, whenever is just dumb. Shifters tossing tac nukes around to smite their enemies. Monsters teleporting in and out on a whim. No one and no thing would be safe, unless they had powerful magic defenses, and in short order there would be a tiny handful of such shielded sites, and everyone else getting crapped on. Like I said, it's not magic, but specifically the teleport spell/ability that's the problem.

A Rifts book, not making any sense?  Why I never.

I really do appreciate Rifts for being a balls to the wall batshit crazy setting, but like others have mentioned it does require a fair bit of tweaking from a GM to smooth over the rough patches.  The Coalition being a dictatorship paranoid of magic does make sense, given that magic blew up a large percentage of humanity and got another large percentage eaten/enslaved/both by demons and Cthulhus.  And keeping an underclass uneducated so your dirt farmers don't get uppity ideas about things like voting, that makes sense too.  A blanket ban on all literacy on the other hand is nonsensical, since you need someone sufficiently-educated to build and maintain your giant skull robots.  So, tweaking.

 Rifts book not making any sense in this case is so much worse. Its one thing when it makes no sense. another when it contradicts itself. Lazlo is a centre of learning and knowledge for all of North america if not Rifts Earth. Yet somehow they won't sell you a spell because it might be used against them or someone else. They are surrounded by enemies on all sides yet just think of making an army in the last 20 or 10 years.

As I said two possibly conflicting versions of Rifts Earth Freelancer and Kevin S and smashed together like a Square peg in a round hole rather tan trying to make it a cohesive whole. As it stands the book requires a massive rewrite to make any sense.