Quote from: Zachary The First;353422Yeah...I really don't think that's the case.

Look, I'm a RPG blogger.  Occasionally, the elephant in the room of WotC/4e is going to come up.  I don't think I've been too mean-spirited with what I write, and I seriously doubt my pissant site with ~600 subscribers is causing widespread hurt and consternation.

Not individually, no. In the aggregate I think this behavior contributes to an overall negative to the hobby- it makes it suck a little, and I resent that. One thing I am annoyed with is how it's ok to say anything about 4e or 4e fans, but people get really sensitive and hurt when anyone responds back. But isn't that the baseline rules of engagement?

QuoteAs for the old-school blogs, if I had the time this morning, I'm pretty sure I could furnish you with a robust list of recently updated ones.  I'm not sure if you do your reading through RSS feeds or what, but attrition is natural part of blogging.  People get burnt out (as I did with my previous effort).  I still learn about a new blog of that type every other week or so.

There's tons of blogs, of all types it isn't a competition. (Even if someone were to make it a competition, the results would be such that we would look at it and say "Wow.. that's really not a competition".) And 80% of the recently updated ones would be retrospectives of paperback novels people got from the library during the 1970s or articles like "here's my thoughts on bullywugs..what if they had robots?". Blogging and gaming are separate hobbies. Gaming and hanging around on forums are separate hobbies.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;353426Not individually, no. In the aggregate I think this behavior contributes to an overall negative to the hobby- it makes it suck a little, and I resent that.

There are a lot of 4e bloggers I respect, and generally read.  I don't have to like their game, and they don't have to like mine.  One of my co-hosts on RPG Circus is a 4e player, and we find plenty to discuss.  It isn't an absolute.  I seem to get on with most players just fine, it's advocates that have an issue, if at all.  Overall, my site deals with WotC infrequently; most articles are positive regarding other topics.

Quote from: Abyssal MawOne thing I am annoyed with is how it's ok to say anything about 4e or 4e fans, but people get really sensitive and hurt when anyone responds back. But isn't that the baseline rules of engagement?

Well...

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;353419You only think you are attacking WOTC. What you are actually doing is attacking regular, normal, innocent people who have no idea what you are problem is, who are playing a game. It's desperate and sickening.

I think there's plenty of sensitivity to go around, regardless of game.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;353400I suspect he means revisionism like "old school means you never use miniatures" which was argued at this very site by an assortment of intellectual midgets.

Well, here's an interesting point of reference. Winter's overall conclusion was that the use of minis wasn't widespread in those areas of D&D where they are prominent today - as in, used to indicate the shifting positions of combatants  - as opposed to areas in which they were used more frequently (e.g. to indicate marching order).

My knowledge, and recollection, of the OSR blogosphere on that topic is very hazy/incomplete, but I really can't recall anyone contesting that conclusion (a conclusion about the general scene back then, and not about how it was in their own group). What I do remember is that people brought up that quote by Gygax on Enworld in which he says he never ever used minis in his own D&D games (never mind him recommending them for table use in the 1e core books), or Old Geezer reporting that on this site by drawing on his personal experience.

I'm sure that's a sort of self-validation for people who dislike use of minis, and dislike 4E's reliance on them. But what's so dishonest about that - sc. about 1. agreeing with Steve Winter's conclusions in the DDI article and 2. quoting Gygax?

Quote from: Windjammer;353436I'm sure that's a sort of self-validation for people who dislike use of minis, and dislike 4E's reliance on them. But what's so dishonest about that - sc. about 1. agreeing with Steve Winter's conclusions in the DDI article and 2. quoting Gygax?

Absolutely nothing is wrong with that until you start to use that to support some kind of thesis that "great wrongs have been done". At that point, propriety and proportionality are (let's just admit it) out the window.

If the issue is historic authenticity (which 4E makes no claims at being a historical anything) than thats fine. But in that case people should really take a look at the actual miniatures rules of games like Dragonquest. This is a side issue. It was like a 200 page flamewar a year ago.

Quote from: Hairfoot;353409Since I've been posting on this site, Abyssal Maw and Seanchai have been deeply offended that many people dare to not like 4E...

Actually, as you don't sit at my table, I don't give a fuck what you like or dislike. What I do care about, however, is the bullshit you try to peddle...

Seanchai

Quote from: Zachary The First;353434There are a lot of 4e bloggers I respect, and generally read.  I don't have to like their game, and they don't have to like mine.  One of my co-hosts on RPG Circus is a 4e player, and we find plenty to discuss.  It isn't an absolute.  I seem to get on with most players just fine, it's advocates that have an issue, if at all.

Zach, first of all I don't see anything that bad about being an advocate, but I should point out, that's almost literally all the so-called OSR does. You would be hard pressed to find some 4E blog out there telling people to like 4E, (you'll find people talking about games they played or monsters they made up or rules they found problems or solutions for) but not so with retro-flavor of the month. Half of the posts are literally ad copy. Check out this book.. use it! Order it here! Buy this thing! Support this other game! Check what this guy over there said about this other thing you should be playing!

How do you guys not see this?

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;353400I suspect he means revisionism like "old school means you never use miniatures" which was argued at this very site by an assortment of intellectual midgets.

Among others. With the advent of new editions of the game, particularly 4e, there sprang up a plethora of claims about OD&D and AD&D that bear little resemblance to the games themselves. That there was a large disconnect between those games and miniatures or that miniatures weren't really used is one...

Seanchai

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;353454Zach, first of all I don't see anything that bad about being an advocate, but I should point out, that's almost literally all the so-called OSR does. You would be hard pressed to find some 4E blog out there telling people to like 4E, (you'll find people talking about games they played or monsters they made up or rules they found problems or solutions for) but not so with retro-flavor of the month. Half of the posts are literally ad copy. Check out this book.. use it! Order it here! Buy this thing! Support this other game! Check what this guy over there said about this other thing you should be playing!

How do you guys not see this?

Where did I say the OSR didn't have advocates?  I'm one, and I blog about the stuff that excites me, just like I'm sure you want to talk about stuff that excites you with 4e.  If Swords & Wizardry gets a new release, it's news, and I'm going to blog about it, if I like it.

It's human nature to want to share what gets us excited.  It's probably also human nature to respond negatively when people disdain or dismiss the things we like.  And that's whether it's someone talking trash about Gygax, someone saying they had a shitty time in the RPGA, or a game designer dismissing or ignoring game elements we found entertaining.

Honest to God, I have no beef with 4e players.  None.  I read the AP recaps, and have even cribbed a few ideas.  I don't care for the game, and I really don't like the company (even though I do like some of the folks working there).  When I write about it at all, it's in those terms.  I'd wager just about all of my articles mentioning 4e in any capacity were about WotC pulling their pdfs without notice, the cluster that was the GSL, or some perception about the system.

An attack on a game or company isn't an attack on the players, unless I say something like "only Grade-A twits play that game".  I don't think I've ever done that, and would be the first to apologize if I had.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;353414You don't see it because you are one of them.

Always the accusation you level at your detractors.  I laughed out loud at this -- it was so cute.

!i!

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;353454How do you guys not see this?

If you would just get off the cross you made for yourself, your viewpoint wouldn't suffer so much.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;353474Always the accusation you level at your detractors.  I laughed out loud at this -- it was so cute.

!i!

Dude, if you want to talk to me about something, then actually make the effort.

We all have our blindspots and we all tend to cut our own people a break whenever we start thinking in terms of "our own people".  Yes, I am a big ol' cheerleader for the stuff I like.  Yes I talk it up.  But I can't just click over to wizards.com to see what the newest hotness is and neither can other people who share my preferences.  Pretty much every time I think to myself "maybe it's a waste of time to tell people this has come out" I get at least one enthusiastic thank-you in the comments.

Quote from: jrients;353499We all have our blindspots and we all tend to cut our own people a break whenever we start thinking in terms of "our own people".  Yes, I am a big ol' cheerleader for the stuff I like.  Yes I talk it up.  But I can't just click over to wizards.com to see what the newest hotness is and neither can other people who share my preferences.  Pretty much every time I think to myself "maybe it's a waste of time to tell people this has come out" I get at least one enthusiastic thank-you in the comments.

Well, maybe you misinterpreted what I said: I said there's absolutely nothing wrong with liking things. It's enthusiasm, and that's a positive, great thing. Yes, even for stuff I am not personally interested in or care about.

Of course if you like the wrong thing, that gets spun as "Zealotry". It's projection.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;353508Of course if you like the wrong thing, that gets spun as "Zealotry". It's projection.

I dunno.  Sometimes it's projection and sometimes it's zealotry by any reasonable standard.  Back in my rpgnet days I recall a lot of "What system should I use?" threads getting hijacked by well-intentioned Exalted or Wushu spazzes.

Quote from: jrients;353499We all have our blindspots and we all tend to cut our own people a break whenever we start thinking in terms of "our own people".  Yes, I am a big ol' cheerleader for the stuff I like.  Yes I talk it up.  But I can't just click over to wizards.com to see what the newest hotness is and neither can other people who share my preferences.  Pretty much every time I think to myself "maybe it's a waste of time to tell people this has come out" I get at least one enthusiastic thank-you in the comments.

Exactly.  I see the distributed network aspect of the OSR/indie D&D/gonzo rules-lite/whatever scene as a strength, not as a weakness.  So what if half of the OSR/etc consists of people bringing cool things to other people's attention?  I'd much rather get switched on to nifty new stuff by reading guys like Jeff and Akrasia than get the Approved Company Line from the Approved Company House Organ.  I'm pretty sure I outgrew the latter tendency soon after Unearthed Arcana was released.

YMMV, of course.