I've had a running theme in my games of characters undergoing personal transformations and then swapping around their class levels to match their changed self. A Fighter becoming a Paladin, etc. This isn't multiclassing the traditional way since it's changing past levels to represent what the character cares about now.
However, you can't just wake up and be changed. It has to involve important formative events, training, etc.
I have a player who plays a Cleric. They were inspired by a recent mage duel to want to change one of their Cleric levels to a Wizard level. I found the justification acceptable, but the question is, how long should this take?
Learning to be a wizard is different than becoming a believer (cleric) or embracing an oath (paladin). You have to pore over tomes and study for a long period of time.
How long sounds reasonable to switch over? On the one hand, I want it to be short enough that it's a practical choice during the actual campaign, instead of something they never do. On the other hand, if it's too simple it might make the concept of being a wizard seem too easy.
Right now the condition is finding a teacher at a wizard school who'll instruct him for a time. But how long? A day? A week? Months? Years?
Did previous D&D editions say anything about this kind of thing?
I would think the bigger issue would be to give back the Devine power entrusted to him.
Some deities might take that personal.
Sounds like people just don't like the class they picked and want a redo. How much internal consistency do you want in you campaign? Do you care about it being completely meta-gamey or not? If you want internal consistency then if a PC can "retrain" then an NPC can as well; and your campaign world should reflect that reality.
It could be interesting, especially among religions and such who don't want to lose their Clerics to flashy Wizards.
It also makes no difference in reality how long it takes in game, it could take 10 years but that could be three rolls and 15 minutes at the table. The trouble is other players may have other plans and may not want their characters to wait around years while someone retrains. If you are talking something as "simple" as going from Cleric 10 to Cleric 9 / Wizard 1 I'd say in game months. But from Cleric 10 to Cleric 5 / Wizard 5 in game years. I'm a fan of nonlinear equations maybe 3 months^n where n is the number of levels you want to retrain.
AD&D had a system for losing your class, such as the Paladin being demoted to Fighter. The AD&D Bard is probably the only example as to become a bard you had to be a fighter a few levels, a rogue then study druids which cause them to become a Bard.
But this sort of wishy-washy is usually the sort of thing you see in the characters backstory. "Tristan studied to become a wizard. But before getting anywhere found the sword suited him better." or "Jane started her life as a lowly street urchin filching things for a living. Then one day she swiped a holy symbol and in it saw hope for a better life and so became a paladin." whatever they were before becoming a 1st level PC is just background possibly backed up with skill selections.
Allowing the players to just up and change class willy nilly doesnt sound right. Normally players just make a new character. Or in say AD&D you changed classes and sometimes never looked back.
I might let a player change their 5e PC class from Fighter to Paladin, I allowed Knight to Warlord in 4e. But it's a total swap, no cherry picking levels.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1017442I've had a running theme in my games of characters undergoing personal transformations and then swapping around their class levels to match their changed self. A Fighter becoming a Paladin, etc. This isn't multiclassing the traditional way since it's changing past levels to represent what the character cares about now.
However, you can't just wake up and be changed. It has to involve important formative events, training, etc.
I have a player who plays a Cleric. They were inspired by a recent mage duel to want to change one of their Cleric levels to a Wizard level. I found the justification acceptable, but the question is, how long should this take?
Learning to be a wizard is different than becoming a believer (cleric) or embracing an oath (paladin). You have to pore over tomes and study for a long period of time.
How long sounds reasonable to switch over? On the one hand, I want it to be short enough that it's a practical choice during the actual campaign, instead of something they never do. On the other hand, if it's too simple it might make the concept of being a wizard seem too easy.
Right now the condition is finding a teacher at a wizard school who'll instruct him for a time. But how long? A day? A week? Months? Years?
Did previous D&D editions say anything about this kind of thing?
Not really. I was always lenient about switching some classes since I wanted players to be able to have characters more like the ones in fiction. For example, is Robin Hood a fighter, a thief or both? I allow fighter/thief switches without the high stats required for other class changes. I also allow other characters with scores under 17 in the required stats (the usual bar for dual-classing) to learn levels in a new class if they have an instructor or role model (including PCs on an adventure). A PC with 17 or higher can just switch because they're assumed to have so much raw talent.
Quote from: Headless;1017478I would think the bigger issue would be to give back the Devine power entrusted to him.
Some deities might take that personal.
In AD&D, 1st and 2nd-level spells were from the cleric's own wisdom, so I'd let the former cleric keep those.
Q: Retraining class levels?
A: Kind of seems like you'd be better off with a game that doesn't rely on classes, but I did have an AD&D game way back when in high school where a player got tired of being a fighter and wanted to become a wizard, so first he had to find someone willing to teach him, then his fighter PC was essentially retired for a few months of game time before he rejoined as a 1st level magic-user. He still had all his hit points and fighterly knowledge to draw on, and for purposes of saving throws we just used whatever was better (4th level fighter vs. 1st level magic-user) until his m-u levels overtook his fighter levels (never got that far). I'm trying to remember how we determined how much experience was needed to gain another level but can't for the life of me recall. Fortunately I didn't use undead or level-draining situations so that quandary never came into play. He couldn't wear armor and use his fighter weapons despite trying to make a case for it, to which I was sympathetic as that stuff never made sense to me anyway but the rules are the rules :D but mainly it didn't seem fair to the other players.
If you throw in magic, you could allow a Wish to accomplish this as it's along the lines of "what would my life have been like if I had done x instead of y" that appears with some regularity in fiction.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1018093If you throw in magic, you could allow a Wish to accomplish this as it's along the lines of "what would my life have been like if I had done x instead of y" that appears with some regularity in fiction.
Only if you end wishing you had your old life back and wake up wondering if it was all just a dream.
Quote from: Dumarest;1018094Only if you end wishing you had your old life back and wake up wondering if it was all just a dream.
True, but gameplay doesn't perfectly match the fiction in all cases. I have allowed a player to use a
Wish to change their background (5e) from Urchin to Noble about 7 levels into a game. It was mostly for flavor, but he did end up missing the skills and tool proficiencies of his old life.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1018141True, but gameplay doesn't perfectly match the fiction in all cases.
Jeez, I would hope not or I'm better off reading a book.
I hate Multi-classing.
Retraining? No. Dwarf the fuck up and choose or go fuck off.
Multi-classing or dual-classing, sure. I'd go with dual-classing.
Better ask your God or your Church, though.
The AD&D DMG starting age for a human mage was something like 20+2d8 years. Implied from this was that training to be a mage could take a while, conceivably a couple of decades. Of course, not all of that had to be magic studies... the apprentice mage would do what a lot of interns and entry level workers do today: get coffee, run errands, rustle up the meals, basically be a servant, much like Mickey Mouse in the Sorcerer's Apprentice. (All of course to build discipline and learn obedience, says the mage, before he lies down for his third nap of the day.) But yeah, there could be fast track if the PC wants to spend the denario. Say 4 years, but it would still take some work.
Usually. But because adventurers typically get involved with crazy shit, there's no shortage of faster tracks. Wishes, actions by a deity, crazy machines in dark dungeons that grant cool powers, influence of an artifact, whatever your imagination can come with, anything that serves to justify the switch. Just make it cool. But you are already there.
Mechanically I'd advise you to stay away from 3.0 era mix and match level dipping as that will lead to unfortunate ends. You are better off with standard double-classing, relaxing multi-classing or using 2.0 era type DIY kits.
A quick example of a kit for Bob the Magic Fighter, who though an incredible series of fascinating campaign events, discovered that he had a latent ability for magic.
Bob gets a first level spell at 3rd level, a second first level spell at 6th, and a 2nd level spell at 9th. ETC. Normal caster rules apply. Done. (I like to have different levels of benefits so there's stuff to look forward to )
It's mechanically light, doesn't break the class system, and adds a lot of flavour. If your player is a frustrated munchkin, he will complain its an underpowered build, at which point, you calmly rescind the offer and steal his dice bag. Otherwise, good to go.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1018414I hate Multi-classing.
That's a reasonable view. I hate classes in general, but if I agree to play a game with them I'm not going to complain about class restrictions.
Quote from: saskganesh;1018563The AD&D DMG starting age for a human mage was something like 20+2d8 years. Implied from this was that training to be a mage could take a while, conceivably a couple of decades. Of course, not all of that had to be magic studies... the apprentice mage would do what a lot of interns and entry level workers do today: get coffee, run errands, rustle up the meals, basically be a servant, much like Mickey Mouse in the Sorcerer's Apprentice. (All of course to build discipline and learn obedience, says the mage, before he lies down for his third nap of the day.) But yeah, there could be fast track if the PC wants to spend the denario. Say 4 years, but it would still take some work.
Usually. But because adventurers typically get involved with crazy shit, there's no shortage of faster tracks. Wishes, actions by a deity, crazy machines in dark dungeons that grant cool powers, influence of an artifact, whatever your imagination can come with, anything that serves to justify the switch. Just make it cool. But you are already there.
Mechanically I'd advise you to stay away from 3.0 era mix and match level dipping as that will lead to unfortunate ends. You are better off with standard double-classing, relaxing multi-classing or using 2.0 era type DIY kits.
What is dual classing?
Also, isn't the fastest "fast track" just multi classing?
It takes 20 years to be a wizard at level 1, but once you're gaining levels you can just pick wizard and get it in the 1 week of game time it takes to level up. Which I always thought was a weird thing.
Yeah, which is why it's dumb. These aren't just jobs; level 1 in a class represents a very significant amount of training (years!). That's why level 1 fighters were called 'veterans'.
Dual classing was in AD&D where a character would change classes at a certain point and start gaining XP in the new class and only that class. He would retain the skills of the first class, but would not be able to use them until his new class level matched that of the first class. (He would of course, retain hit points already earned). It was for humans only as only demi's could multiclass ( I guess this was dropped later in 3.0). A double classer would need to have a prerequisite stat of at least 17 for the new class.
Example, Bob the Fighter makes it to 5th level. He has 50 hit points. For some fantastic reason his intelligence has gone up to 17, making it possible for him to switch to Magic User. He starts anew as a 1st level mage (with 50 hit points!) . He can't use fighter weapons, armor, gear , THACO, saves, until her becomes a 5th level MU, then he can mix and match as appropriate. If he does backslide in an adventure, he forfeits earned XP for that session, because he is not advancing as a mage.
A little clunky, but it works to a degree because there is a mechanical cost. It's rare and not something to be done lightly. Nobody is picking up a level of barbarian over the weekend so they have a daily at will rage ability.
Quote from: saskganesh;1019080Dual classing was in AD&D where a character would change classes at a certain point and start gaining XP in the new class and only that class. He would retain the skills of the first class, but would not be able to use them until his new class level matched that of the first class. (He would of course, retain hit points already earned). It was for humans only as only demi's could multiclass ( I guess this was dropped later in 3.0). A double classer would need to have a prerequisite stat of at least 17 for the new class.
Example, Bob the Fighter makes it to 5th level. He has 50 hit points. For some fantastic reason his intelligence has gone up to 17, making it possible for him to switch to Magic User. He starts anew as a 1st level mage (with 50 hit points!) . He can't use fighter weapons, armor, gear , THACO, saves, until her becomes a 5th level MU, then he can mix and match as appropriate. If he does backslide in an adventure, he forfeits earned XP for that session, because he is not advancing as a mage.
A little clunky, but it works to a degree because there is a mechanical cost. It's rare and not something to be done lightly. Nobody is picking up a level of barbarian over the weekend so they have a daily at will rage ability.
Hmm the only part that doesn't make sense is, why does he have to wait 5 levels to use his old Fighter stuff?
He doesn't, really, but he earns no XP if he uses them before his new class level exceeds his old class level (so level 6 in this example).
AD&D isn't really based on realism or logic except where convenient (read EGG's essay in the DMG on pg. 9 "APPROACHES TO PLAYING ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS" where he discusses dropping realism/logic wherever it gets in the way of what he's trying to do).
So the fighter has to wait until level 6 because that makes the process different, and in many ways less convenient, than a demi-human multi-class. It's couched in verbiage about how a human dual-class has to totally focus on what they're doing now instead of how they used to do things, but that's all blah-blah smoke and mirrors. Having multiple classes is supposed to be a primarily non-human thing. Humans can switch, and eventually synthesize, but they require much higher scores than a demi multi to even qualify for this path, and it's not as smooth for them.
Mac: he did not have to wait, he could have switched at L2 if he wanted (and if he had 17 INT). I picked L5 so he would have 50 hit points, which is considerable for a mage.
Thanks to EOTB to pointing out L6 is needed for synthesis.