So, I've been wanting to get Heaven's Shadow in a few more hands who will hopefully do actual reviews of it. This thing seems to sell like a lead balloon, but I think it's still a good enough game for the price and I think getting some eyes on who can then share that fact with the world would be helpful.
Trouble is, I don't know where to even look for review submissions anymore. RPGnet's mailing address points to a Half-Price Books. I've contacted Pundit, D6 Magazine, and sent a copy to Dan Davenport, but beyond that I've run out of ideas.
Any advice from fellow creators here? Or just places you folks go to get reliable info on new games and such?
Quote from: J Arcane;626451So, I've been wanting to get Heaven's Shadow in a few more hands who will hopefully do actual reviews of it. This thing seems to sell like a lead balloon, but I think it's still a good enough game for the price and I think getting some eyes on who can then share that fact with the world would be helpful.
Trouble is, I don't know where to even look for review submissions anymore. RPGnet's mailing address points to a Half-Price Books. I've contacted Pundit, D6 Magazine, and sent a copy to Dan Davenport, but beyond that I've run out of ideas.
Any advice from fellow creators here? Or just places you folks go to get reliable info on new games and such?
What about the various podcasts? I haven't been a regular listener in a while but I remember quite a few reviews coming out of fear the boot, etc...
Same as any small business really, you've got to get your hustle on.
Look up free online marketing on google for a few tips, there are some great resources out there. Set up a facebook page and learn how to use it. Make a few youtube videos introducing it and with the highlights of people actually playing it. Interact with gamers, play it in public, see if the local paper will run a human interest story on this mad hobby. You really have to be active and get people engaged, get them talking about it. Figure out its good points then find the kind of people who like those points.
I'd say marketing your product is anywhere from a third to nine tenths of the effort involved in creative work, depending on how much of a name you've made for yourself. Publishers used to do that but it's a brave new world so learn the ropes! Just from looking at your kickstarter video I would say to project more enthusiasm, people invest in people more so than ideas. Get excited!
Eh. I'm not really looking for general marketing advice, just specifically review sources. I've got my feelers out in the social media places and shit, H&H largely got its attention through Google+ really, it's just specifically actual reviews that are getting hard to find.
When you do the gameplay video, you need a ringer. Get at least one chick who looks hot in nerd glasses to sit at the table. Get a stripper and hose off the makeup, grab a coed from broadcasting school, whatever.
Most of the reviewers I care about are on forums or blogs.
Awfulpurple I could care less.
Podcasts are the biggest waste of time in the universe, you can't bother to write a transcript, I'm not going to bother to pretend you're entertaining for an hour while I'm waiting for information I could read in 5 minutes.
Youtube videos are kind of interesting, short and sweet, most are just reviewing, not trying to hit the geek celebrity lottery. Try the Gentleman Gamer or Game Geeks.
Alex Lucard (http://diehardgamefan.com/diehard/alexlucard/), heck just about everyone over at Diehardgamefan does a great job doing reviews. They really put their time and effort into it and don't just do one paragraph cheap reviews. Tenker's Tavern (http://www.tenkarstavern.com/) is also reliable, albeit more brief.
I used to write a lot of reviews for RPG.net back in the d20 heyday. Supposedly they had a thing where you could apply to get books that were sent to RPG.net, but it didn't work, at least when I was doing it.
Instead, companies would usually contact me direct. You might try that, look through the last few months and see who is writing reviews a lot and send them an email. Look for people who are writing reviews for older products, it's likely they are only doing so because they don't have money to buy new stuff to review.
I read RPG.net reviews because there are many reviewers there who do a good job. Try to get someone to do an Actual Play review if possible.
Try for a KoDT review. Or have someone you trust write one and submit it to them.
OSR bloggers are a good choice too, especially those who have shown an interest going beyond the AD&D Revival.
I wonder if Fight On! would be open to a review. Ask them.
Also, try for the crazy. Have someone write a great review and have them submit it to lots of newspapers who have an online component. Those guys love fresh, free content.
BTW, I think you are okay writing an "author review" if you can be objective and harshly honest about your own work. I believe that many gamers are interested in the author's perspective on why they built the game in this manner.
Good luck and best wishes with H&H. I am working on my own "Gonzo Space Fantasy" RPG (year after year like a total wanker) and I hope you lead the way for my glorious coming!
Quote from: CRKrueger;626461When you do the gameplay video, you need a ringer. Get at least one chick who looks hot in nerd glasses to sit at the table. Get a stripper and hose off the makeup, grab a coed from broadcasting school, whatever.
Hells yeah!
QuoteGood luck and best wishes with H&H. I am working on my own "Gonzo Space Fantasy" RPG (year after year like a total wanker) and I hope you lead the way for my glorious coming!
It seems that, despite its failure, Hulks and Horrors' original campaign has paved the way for a lot of followers.
One of the reasons I'm thinking about doing a bare-bones release now in advance of my second attempt.
Quote from: J Arcane;626460Eh. I'm not really looking for general marketing advice, just specifically review sources. I've got my feelers out in the social media places and shit, H&H largely got its attention through Google+ really, it's just specifically actual reviews that are getting hard to find.
*raises hand*
Just tossing it out there.
Yeah, J, Tommy's a great choice.
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;626616*raises hand*
Just tossing it out there.
PM me an email addy and I will comp you the digital package. :)
Quote from: J Arcane;626577It seems that, despite its failure, Hulks and Horrors' original campaign has paved the way for a lot of followers.
I won the PolyCon game design prize in 2008 for my gonzo sci-fantasy RPG Goreblade: Heavy Metal Roleplaying which has been whacked about year after year because of many whiny and wanky excuses on my part (redid the system, redid the theme, redid the setting, etc). Instead of just getting the damn thing out there via PDF/POD, I have been spanking the thing into bits trying to "make it perfect" over and over again.
I fear that unless I get off my ass in 2013, both you and Silverlion will have your "D&D in Spaaace" games sitting on shelves while I am still playing with my dork.
Quote from: J Arcane;626577One of the reasons I'm thinking about doing a bare-bones release now in advance of my second attempt.
This might be a good marketing option, especially if you let all the PDF buyers know that they get the "AH&H" version for free when you finish it.
If you sell it POD and give them the PDF too, I doubt they would be upset to get another dead tree when your full-version arrived, especially if they get the PDFs for free.
I don't know if this has been done before.
If you can get a following for the bare bones version maybe by free or low cost distribution, perhaps you would be able to launch a Kickstarter for the AH&H version.
The latter was the idea. H&H was a cool as fuck project and that I think a fair amount of people were very interested in, but not being able to see it for themselves, and coming from a new face on the scene (as a designer anyway), plus being on IGG instead of Kickstarter proper, put a lot of people off I think.
But if I release an artless "H&H Basic" now, I already know that quite a few of those fires are still burning, and those who've come along and announced stuff since then only seems to remind people "Hey, but whatever happened to Hulks and Horrors?"
So, I am finishing writing H&H as is now (just need to wrap the DM's section and maybe an adventure), and I'm going to publish it as a free PDF with a low-cost POD option ($10-15 depending on page count).
Then from there I can hopefully get more eyes on and people can see for themselves if they want to pitch in for a kickstart of a full fledged illustrated and expanded edition. I've still got Tim and Evan on board and I've been speaking to Khairul Hisham as well about bringing some art, and I got a lead on a great SF painter as well, so I think I can come out swinging for the fences, especially if I can get the promo video shot that I want before I lose access to the campus Chromakey system.
The art I saw on your IGG page was very good.
Your plan sounds solid. I definitely recommend launching H&H with an intro adventure in your basic, and perhaps a slew of them in your final version. One of the flaws I notice with most small press RPGs is a lack of adventures.
And a promo video with Chromakey? That sounds kinda cool.
Ask Pseudo, he'd do one for you, I'm sure.
I second KoDT, also look at doing an ad there. 35,000 readers dude.
I really like Kurt Weigel (Game Geeks) (http://www.youtube.com/user/pugknowspro). Only gaming vlog I bother following. I'm almost sure he only does hardcopy reviews, like Pundit. But maybe worth a shot since he's got over 6,000 subscribers on YouTube.
Knights of the Dinner Table. Beyond that...the electronic based marketing folks have mentioned in the thread.
I'd be very careful about KotDT. At least one of the reviewers seems to have a preconceived notion of the product he's reviewing before he actually gets it. For example, I sent a product that is designed for portable rules lite rpging (Compact Heroes). Some of his chief complaints were that it didn't have as much detail as full rpg books (well duh, that was the whole point--not having to carry around rpg books), and he complained about several things that didn't have rules when in fact they were in the rules (like handling skill checks). Which is odd in itself because he also complained that the rules were only 3 pages long, so I would think it would have been a fast read and those supposed missing rules would have been easy to find. I'm not saying my game is perfect or anything, but most of the criticism was either misplaced, or outright false.
The really unfortunate thing is that because KotDT is widely read, I could literally track a huge drop off in sales right when that issue came out.
No, I'm not bitter ;)
Send it to Tommy. His reviews are always thorough and well written.
-clash
Already did. ^^
I also sent copies to the Featured Reviewers circle on DTRPG. Not sure if it'll come to anything, but it can't hurt.
Quote from: J Arcane;626858Already did. ^^
I also sent copies to the Featured Reviewers circle on DTRPG. Not sure if it'll come to anything, but it can't hurt.
I have very little to do with the featured reviewers aside from Tommy, and Rob M'uad-dib when he was a featured reviewer, so I can't help you much there.
-clash
Quote from: Sacrosanct;626828I'd be very careful about KotDT. At least one of the reviewers seems to have a preconceived notion of the product he's reviewing before he actually gets it. For example, I sent a product that is designed for portable rules lite rpging (Compact Heroes). Some of his chief complaints were that it didn't have as much detail as full rpg books (well duh, that was the whole point--not having to carry around rpg books), and he complained about several things that didn't have rules when in fact they were in the rules (like handling skill checks). Which is odd in itself because he also complained that the rules were only 3 pages long, so I would think it would have been a fast read and those supposed missing rules would have been easy to find. I'm not saying my game is perfect or anything, but most of the criticism was either misplaced, or outright false.
The really unfortunate thing is that because KotDT is widely read, I could literally track a huge drop off in sales right when that issue came out.
No, I'm not bitter ;)
Send a letter to Jolly pointing out where the review was objectively, provably, factually wrong, and ask for a rebuttal and/or retraction, listing your sales data as evidence that harm was done. The guys over there seem pretty reasonable.
Yeah, I'm generally of the mind that publishers shouldn't meddle in reviews, but I think when actual factual errors are involved, requesting a retraction is perfectly fair.
Quote from: The Butcher;626756I really like Kurt Weigel (Game Geeks) (http://www.youtube.com/user/pugknowspro). Only gaming vlog I bother following. I'm almost sure he only does hardcopy reviews, like Pundit. But maybe worth a shot since he's got over 6,000 subscribers on YouTube.
He's reviewed a few .pdf's on his show in the past usually as part of some drivethrurpg dealy where he also offers a promotional code for money off drivethru products and such, but yeah kurts a solid reviewer to look at getting a review from(and i believe he's also an judge for the ennies this year).
I like how the OP implies that I am Beyond Respectable, in whatever sense that may be interpreted.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;627069I like how the OP implies that I am Beyond Respectable, in whatever sense that may be interpreted.
RPGPundit
:D
I just wanted to make sure, especially when it comes to paying out of pocket to sent print copies, that whoever I'm sending it to is actually going to review the damned thing.
You've been exemplary in your record on that as I've seen, even reviewing crap I probably wouldn't have done anything with but bin rather than having to read all the way through. :p
Quote from: J Arcane;627114:D
I just wanted to make sure, especially when it comes to paying out of pocket to sent print copies, that whoever I'm sending it to is actually going to review the damned thing.
You've been exemplary in your record on that as I've seen, even reviewing crap I probably wouldn't have done anything with but bin rather than having to read all the way through. :p
Exemplary in this case meaning I have reviewed 100% of the products that I actually received for review. I've never missed one.
RPGPundit
I like the guy from tenfootpole.org , we have similar tastes and he doesn't bullshit or glad-hand.
I find "5 star" Tenkar useless.
I used to consider Kurt Weigel respectable, but I've learned since that he doesn't observe fish on Fridays, and moreover has a latent tendency to Disestablishmentarianism.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;626828I'd be very careful about KotDT. At least one of the reviewers seems to have a preconceived notion of the product he's reviewing before he actually gets it. For example, I sent a product that is designed for portable rules lite rpging (Compact Heroes). Some of his chief complaints were that it didn't have as much detail as full rpg books (well duh, that was the whole point--not having to carry around rpg books), and he complained about several things that didn't have rules when in fact they were in the rules (like handling skill checks). Which is odd in itself because he also complained that the rules were only 3 pages long, so I would think it would have been a fast read and those supposed missing rules would have been easy to find. I'm not saying my game is perfect or anything, but most of the criticism was either misplaced, or outright false.
The really unfortunate thing is that because KotDT is widely read, I could literally track a huge drop off in sales right when that issue came out.
No, I'm not bitter ;)
When a game I have been involved in creating gets a review, I can live with a reviewer not liking the game. That's cool, tastes vary.
But, when a reviewer gets facts wrong, it drives me crazy.
And per your example, not understanding the design goals is rage inducing.
I have Compact Heroes....hey! why is it so Compact!?! :)
Quote from: Bill;627521When a game I have been involved in creating gets a review, I can live with a reviewer not liking the game. That's cool, tastes vary.
But, when a reviewer gets facts wrong, it drives me crazy.
And per your example, not understanding the design goals is rage inducing.
I have Compact Heroes....hey! why is it so Compact!?! :)
As J Arcane mentioned, I am
very hesitant about contacting reviewers after a review. One thing I really want to avoid is coming off as that "that guy" who gets all defensive about a personal product without cause and getting into a public pissing match. It's obvious he doesn't like the game, which is OK, and part of me worries that if I reply with a list of inaccuracies, they'll do the retraction along with a whole new list of things he hates about it. That would sort of defeat the purpose I guess. I mean, it seems to me that he rushed to judgement in the first review, so pointing out mistakes would just make the matter worse.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;627536As J Arcane mentioned, I am very hesitant about contacting reviewers after a review. One thing I really want to avoid is coming off as that "that guy" who gets all defensive about a personal product without cause and getting into a public pissing match. It's obvious he doesn't like the game, which is OK, and part of me worries that if I reply with a list of inaccuracies, they'll do the retraction along with a whole new list of things he hates about it. That would sort of defeat the purpose I guess. I mean, it seems to me that he rushed to judgement in the first review, so pointing out mistakes would just make the matter worse.
Thanking them for the review might be the only option.
Then look for more reviewers and hope they are objective and actually read/test the game.
Once in a while I get a point of fact, rather than opinion or the likes, wrong in a review. If its something that is a question of pure fact (ie. I quote a rule wrong, or miss something in the mechanics) then I really want the writer/publisher to note it, for the sake of accuracy and completion.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;627719Once in a while I get a point of fact, rather than opinion or the likes, wrong in a review. If its something that is a question of pure fact (ie. I quote a rule wrong, or miss something in the mechanics) then I really want the writer/publisher to note it, for the sake of accuracy and completion.
RPGPundit
In complete agreement with Pundit here. If I'm factually wrong, please tell me. I will correct it.
Really. No reviewer would be worth his salt if he couldn't accept that.
On the other hand, there are those review-ees who are not so much pointing out something that was missed as trying to make an argument that a bad review was unfair for entirely non-objective reasons.
RPGPundit