So, Reign is silly in some places, like the bit about men riding side-saddle.
But forget that for the moment -- the issue is what you could do with Reign.
Reign posits that there are two levels -- the party and the company. If the party wants back-up they can take some NPCs from the company. If the party has extra coin, they can invest in the company.
This is a return to the basics.
The earliest wargames had armies. D&D in the 1970's had huge mobs of followers. AD&D had extensive castle-building. The Buffy/Angel/Serenity games emphasized group resources. Ars Magica had grogs and chantries. Etc.
Reign specifies a few measurements for companies:
1. Might (military force and physical security)
2. Treasure (financial backbone and ready cash)
3. Territory (land and buildings)
4. Influence (the social connections necessary to hear and utter gossip)
5. Sovereignty (how much the members construct their personal identities on the basis of membership, how willingly they put the group's interests before their own)
Player-characters can start with Wealth and Followers. If players pool their coins and flunkies, a four-person team could field a force with Might 3 and Treasure 3, and all other stats presumably 0.
It's obvious that if you start off with a company that has coin and swords, the most likely thing to do is use that coin as the ever-ready sinews of war, and take over a territory that has something desirable -- buildings, loot, citizens, etc.
Conceivably one could start with different kinds of companies. Perhaps the GM would allow a small amount of starting territory, and allow a border war to expand it.
In game terms, I see it as easy to start with a Might-and-Treasure company, and harder to start as anything else. I'd be interested if anyone has used these rules to run (e.g.) a starting company that was strong in Influence.
Quote from: riprockReign posits that there are two levels -- the party and the company. If the party wants back-up they can take some NPCs from the company. If the party has extra coin, they can invest in the company.
This is a return to the basics.
The earliest wargames had armies. D&D in the 1970's had huge mobs of followers. AD&D had extensive castle-building. The Buffy/Angel/Serenity games emphasized group resources. Ars Magica had grogs and chantries. Etc.
And if it's what I imagine it will be, A Song of Ice and Fire (Green Ronin) will be another one of those. :cool:
Quote from: riprockIn game terms, I see it as easy to start with a Might-and-Treasure company, and harder to start as anything else. I'd be interested if anyone has used these rules to run (e.g.) a starting company that was strong in Influence.
The Company generation advice given in REIGN is to give a certain amount of points to the players (1 or 2 per player) and let them spend it to construct their company; that's how I did it in my REIGN game, at least. Note that:
- You do have to have
some Sovereignty, because if it hits 0 the Company dissolves - if nobody cares whether the company sinks or swims, nobody's got any good reason to stick around, and everyone deserts, betrays, backstabs or embezzles the Company to tiny pieces.
- PCs could, indeed, pool all of their stuff to boost the Company's Might and Treasure at game start. However, the PCs who do this will then end up much weaker than they otherwise would have been because it'd take some pretty heavy investments of character building points to get a decent amount of stuff. Note also that once you've invested that stuff it's common property - the PC who donated it can no longer assume they'll have that money or those men available, especially if the Company needs funds and troops to run a war this month...
- REIGN seems to assume, but never states outright, that the PCs run the Company. At the very least, I think the
players should be running the Company and making Company-level decisions, even if their PCs are just a bunch of plebs.
- Stolze reckons that you can get interesting results by having weak PCs attached to strong Companies (in which case they have to rely on the Company's resources a lot more, and the Company aspects of the game are emphasised), or by having strong PCs attached to weak Companies (in which case direct action on the part of the PCs is going to be emphasised, and the Company is going to be - initially, at least - a somewhat less important aspect of the game).
Quote from: WarthurThe Company generation advice given in REIGN is to give a certain amount of points to the players (1 or 2 per player) and let them spend it to construct their company; that's how I did it in my REIGN game, at least. Note that:
- You do have to have some Sovereignty, because if it hits 0 the Company dissolves - ...
- PCs could, indeed, pool all of their stuff to boost the Company's Might and Treasure at game start. However, the PCs who do this will then end up much weaker than they otherwise would have been because it'd take some pretty heavy investments of character building points to get a decent amount of stuff. ..
I missed the bit about 1 or 2 points per player. Thanks for that.
Also, you make a good point about 0 Sovereignty companies not lasting for any length of time. I had wondered how that would fit together with pooling Followers. Even if the company had 0 Sovereignty, could the Followers still be loyal to their leader PCs? That question may have no precise answer, and it might be better to just hand out the PCs points for sovereignty rather than elaborate a shaky theoretical edifice.
Obviously I haven't read the book carefully enough and I should give it another look before speculating further, but clearly one can start with nontraditional companies - e.g. those 4 players might choose Influence 3 Sovereignty 1 to create a petty, back-stabbing clique of courtiers with no common funds, army, or territory.
Quote from: riprockThe earliest wargames had armies. D&D in the 1970's had huge mobs of followers. AD&D had extensive castle-building. The Buffy/Angel/Serenity games emphasized group resources. Ars Magica had grogs and chantries. Etc.
Reign specifies a few measurements for companies:
1. Might (military force and physical security)
2. Treasure (financial backbone and ready cash)
3. Territory (land and buildings)
4. Influence (the social connections necessary to hear and utter gossip)
5. Sovereignty (how much the members construct their personal identities on the basis of membership, how willingly they put the group's interests before their own)
Interesting, keep wanting to check out Reign. Is it mainly for playing kingdoms or can it do merc groups like The Black or White companies (fantasy / 100 Years War), or "corporations" like guilds, Ghostbusters, and Wolfram & Hart? Do the players have to all be in the same company, or can they have opposing companies or even one company per player?
Hrm, from the above methinks this could be used to run a Tekumel clan campaign, or a temple secret society power building game. :pundit: Tekumel has had many wargame rules over the years. The original Tekumel game, Empire of the Petal Throne was an outgrowth of OD&D and included domain managing (down to the level of detail of having taxation) and mass combat rules.
4 & 5 would be about equal as group comes first and social life is as deadly as physical combat on Tekumel. 2 (if financial backbone includes credit) & 3 below that as the lands and populations are vast & control of them & credit fickle or unchanging. 1 would be lowest as war is usually ritual, brutal and fast but life is cheap and threat of violence almost omnipresent.
Quote from: Casey777Interesting, keep wanting to check out Reign. Is it mainly for playing kingdoms or can it do merc groups like The Black or White companies (fantasy / 100 Years War), or "corporations" like guilds, Ghostbusters, and Wolfram & Hart?
Any and all. It scales very neatly based on the stats you assign.
QuoteDo the players have to all be in the same company, or can they have opposing companies or even one company per player?
Hmm. I hadn't really considered that before. I'd always assumed -- and the company rules certainly seem to be written toward -- single-company play with all players contributing to its play. Generally, the company is intended as a sort of abstract mega-character that all of the players help control, a way for them to make an impact on a much grander scale. I suppose, theoretically, each player could create a company for himself.
QuoteHrm, from the above methinks this could be used to run a Tekumel clan campaign, or a temple secret society power building game.
A Tsolyáni clan would be a
perfect example of a
Reign company (see riprock's explanation of the company characteristics in his original post).
!i!
The following is a pseudo-medieval city statted up for Reign. The City is assumed to have some ruthless and powerful government -- whether that is an autocrat, a council of schemers, a theocracy, etc. is up to the GM. The City Government has access to a certain number of assassins, but these are not battlefield warriors and thus are not reflected as a Might score. Taken as a whole, the City might be evaluated as:
Might:3,1,1 (i.e. the City has three armed forces)
Treasure:2 (the City as such does not have much spare cash, although some of its citizens do)
Territory:3 or 4 depending on how one interprets geography
Influence: 3
Sovereignty: 3 (the City is deeply divided but well-managed)
Note that Might 4 would allow two separate Might 3 armies, and this City is not sufficiently optimized to allow that level of force. This city has a high population and a tech level higher than most groups in the Reign rules. The City's elites attempt to enforce a strict system of social class and reputation to ensure that disruptive lower-class elements cannot rise at all, and that ambitious law-abiding elements cannot rise far or fast.
Note that the city changes over time: poachers, bandits, and brothels frequently go out of business; courtiers whose salons cost too much may close their doors and retreat to private life.
Note that many highly-skilled professions, such as physicians, apothecaries, and locksmiths, exist in the city, but charge very steep prices and cater only to the very wealthy. Thus, while they may be attached to a Courtier's Salon, they do not form highly-skilled trade unions.
City-dwellers have access to bathhouses, but they must compete fiercely to make ends meet. In theory, swords are legal within the city, but armor is regulated. In practice, many people wear concealed armor, and the climate is cold enough that normal clothing often functions as padded armor. Frequently ambitious city-dwellers are reduced to poverty. The elites of the City are well-informed about city gangs, and have some notion of where the bandits hide, but they prefer to maintain the status quo. In particular, they prefer all miscreants to concentrate in the city, where they can be controlled and killed if necessary. They also want the rural populace to be healthy, well-fed, and not unfamiliar with weapons, in case a mass levy becomes necessary. While the City Government would prefer to organize such efforts as an increase of troops or an improvement of culture, they are often preoccupied with the details of tax collection and the latest gang wars.
Descriptions follow for seven unique organizations and nine non-unique organization types. Many other demographics within the city are not suitable for organization status. E.g. a mom-and-pop tavern that rents its property from a landlord has no significant wealth, land, or non-family employees, so it is essentially two NPC characters, a husband and wife, rather than an NPC organization. On the other end of the social scale, a solitary, patrician miser with Wealth 5 might be a landlord, but has no personal bodyguards, servants, or organization.
unique organizations:
1.Squires of the Road (police, tax collectors, road maintainers, building inspectors, gate guards, notaries) (upper class) (During peace, the squires are a competent riot squad; during war they are couriers.) (This is the ideal place to stick a semi-intelligent and socially acceptable son of the gentry while one is trying to find a more permanent place for him. Even if they never advance to high positions of power, these gentlemen are always comfortable. Some of the incorrigibly academic Squires have close connections with the Aquaduct Fraternity. The elite ranks are competent cartographers, and they constantly re-survey the terrain surrounding the city-state. These cartographers have close and cordial ties with the City-State External Professional Army. The Squires of the Road will drag tax debtors to the City Workhouse, but they have no organizational communication with the Workhouse. The Squires of the Road studiously abstain from noticing gang battles until they are mostly completed, whereupon the Squires solemnly ride onto the scene to arrest the losing side as it bleeds to death.)
Might: 1
Treasure: 2
Territory: 1 (all roads, all gates, small tax office)
Influence: 3
Sovereignty: 3
2.City-State Home Guard Militia (mostly elderly middle-class)
(During peace, the home guard is a retirement home for crippled ex-soldiers; during war it is the last line of defense. They are generally irascible, xenophobic war-mongers, and very proud of it. While old and unhealthy, they compensate with extra ferocity. This is sufficient only if the fighting is close to home: these old men cannot march or withstand cold nights in soldiers' tents.)
Might: 1 or 0 (depending on the latest medical developments)
Treasure: 1
Territory:0
Influence:0
Sovereignty:3
3.City-State External Professional Army (rank-dependent class, officers=upper, ranks = middle)
(The external army is professional, well-managed, and well-paid enough to sleep anywhere, eat almost anything, and fight anyone. Their particular concerns are bandits, farmers who might try to evade taxes, and farmers who might try a career transition to banditry. The External Professional Army has quartermasters with numerous caches of weapons, supplies, and food; it likewise has career officers with extensive written plans for how and when to implement martial law if necessary. The army attempts to screen out recruits with prior criminal associations. Many army personnel would strongly prefer to use open violence to exterminate the criminal gangs of the city, but the government refuses permission to such schemes.)
Might: 3
Treasure: 3
Territory:1 (barracks within city, several practice areas and "tent cities" outside city walls)
Influence:0
Sovereignty:3
4.Fraternity of Aquaduct Technicians (maintain bathhouses, reservoirs, pipes, fountains) (middle class)
(This is an ideal place to stick the inconvenient son who refuses to stop reading books and messing around with toy steam engines. They are typical the un-businesslike, impractical sons of the gentry, but they are good at mathematics and civil engineering. They sometimes help the Squires of the Road with highly technical matters, such as how to use gravel and cobblestones to make a solid road. They are officially authorized by the City Government to send the Senior Representative to the Drainage Council. The junior reps are from the Putrefactors and the Barge & Canal Guild.)
Might:0
Treasure:2
Territory:1 (reservoirs, elevated aqueducts, pump houses, small offices)
Influence:1
Sovereignty:3
5.Putrefactors (undertakers, street cleaners, sewer maintainers, garbagemen, spies) (lower class)
(These unique gentlemen have an unusual amount of influence with the City Government because they are the best surveillance system in the city. No one can go on the street without being seen by a Putrefactor. No one can die in public without a Putrefactor taking the body. No one can suddenly take on a secret tenant without a Putrefactor noticing the extra garbage and offal. In times of crisis, the Putrefactors use their semi-secret, highly fortified underground tunnel system for military transport. Most of the time, it is used only by trusted Putrefactors and the City Government elite. Exceptionally skilled Putrefactor spies are given military-quality close-quarters combat training and used as assassins by the City Government. They retain access to the secret tunnels, but they keep their training secret from lower-ranked Putrefactors.)
Might:0
Treasure:1
Territory:1 (semi-secret, highly defensible underground tunnel network, sewer channels)
Influence:3
Sovereignty:3
6.Barge & Canal Guild (maintain canals, transport goods on canals) (lower-lower class)
(These hard-working honest folk are mostly incapable of holding down more pleasant jobs. Steering a barge is the least desired job in the city, even if mules are available for a little extra power. This guild is also responsible for maintaining a few drainage ditches. They are bullied by the Putrefactors much of the time. The canals breed vast numbers of stinging insects and a considerable amount of disease. Many bargemen die from exhaustion, preventable hygiene-related diseases, and contaminated food. Those who quit often drift into criminal street gangs.)
Might:0
Treasure:1
Territory:1 (canal network both inside and outside city walls)
Influence:0
Sovereignty:3
7.City Workhouse (employer of last resort for impoverished citizens) (middle class)
(This unique and highly regulated facility serves to keep most city-dwellers in line by showing them whither the Squires of the Road will drag them if they fail to pay their taxes. The workers are technically not slaves, but rather in debt to the City. Unless ransomed, they will die from hard labor, poor sanitation, and inadequate food. The guards are well-trained and highly disciplined, but not a battlefield force. The overseers and guards are highly disciplined and maintain a very professional attitude, while the workers are prisoners and as such have no loyalty to the organization. The overseers are mostly selected from the most obedient and reliable members of the middle class.)
Might:0
Treasure:1
Territory:1 (prison-like workhouse, with sturdy locks to keep workers in and rescuers out)
Influence:0
Sovereignty:3 (for overseers and guards only)
--
Non-unique organizations
1.Typical Gentleman's Club (upper class) (more than a dozen in the city)
(These are the resorts of the under-talented scions of privilege. They typically offer rich food, private instruction in fencing, overpriced wine and private parties. They collect steep dues from members and spend lavishly on luxuries. They are the kind of men who will get scratched faces from over-agitated prostitutes, sew salt into the wounds, and tell their friends that the scars were gained in duels against dacoits. They gossip incessantly, but no one listens. All the members are armed, but so completely undisciplined that they cannot eat as a group, much less fight as a group. Very often they will fight duels with each other, so at the GM's option, the club may be able to find a few semi-skilled swordsmen at any given time. Very rarely, they will engage in street battles with lower-class gangs. If any gentleman at this sort of club becomes skilled enough to actually carry out assassinations, the club ceases to be his group and he either starts a new company or transitions to an existing organization -- typically a city criminal gang.)
Might:0
Treasure:2
Territory:1 (townhouses, mansions, gymnasiums)
Influence:1
Sovereignty:2
2.Typical Courtier's Salon (upper class) (about half a dozen in the city)
(Many offspring of the upper classes, both male and female, end up spending vast amounts of time gossipping in a courtier's salon. These concatenations of privileged idleness require vast sums to maintain, but they produce a fair amount of painting, theatrical performances, musical compositions, etc. The host or hostess is invariably of an old patrician bloodline, and usually has 9 or 10 personal Wealth and threat-level 3 Followers at level 5 (i.e. 15 individual fighters). This salon exists to collect wealth from rented land and buildings, and to re-invest money into fine art. As such, salons contain a diverse array of clever, ambitious individuals, jockeying for social position and access to the host/hostess. Frequently, the ambitious and talented from salons will seek out professional criminals to assassinate rivals.)
Might: 0
Treasure: 3
Territory: 1
Influence:3
Sovereignty:2 or 1 (depending on frequency of assassinations)
3.Typical Warehouse Merchant (middle class) (about four dozen in the city)
(The typical warehouse merchant buys raw materials (e.g. grain, flax, wood) by contracts arranged far in advance with large farm owners. The goods are transported by canal.)
Might:1 (bodyguards available 24/7)
Treasure:2
Territory:1(large stone warehouse with road and canal connections, shop space in front, office space on upper floors)
Influence:1
Sovereignty:3
4.Typical Skilled Craft Guild (lower-middle class) (about two dozen within the city)
(These honest, hard-working folks are proud of various skills, such as carpentry or tailoring, but will never rise socially. They have a vested interest in keeping trade secrets and will try to persuade unskilled workers to go back to the farms. Rarely, for a fee, they will accept apprentices. They are prime targets for thieves from organized criminal gangs.)
Might:0
Treasure:0 or 1
Territory:0
Influence:1
Sovereignty:3
5.Typical Licensed Brothel (prostitution, vices such as exotic drugs, gambling, spies) (upper-lower class)
(variable number in operation: minimum half a dozen operating at one time, subject to frequent bankruptcy)
(The members of this guild do not typically live to very old ages, and their working lives are limited. Their profits are mostly confiscated by the Squires of the Road, who also issue their licenses. Some of the reliable spies are given work as street-cleaners for the Putrefactors after their looks have faded.)
Might:0
Treasure:1
Territory:0 (all houses are rented, usually from a Courtier's Salon)
Influence:2
Sovereignty:2
6.Typical Criminal Organization (upper-lower class) (no more than half a dozen at any one time, subject to extermination in gang wars)
(The members of this guild typically die by violence. They fence stolen goods, they smuggle supplies to bandits, they crave money as a means to power. They frequently loan money to and extort money from brothels. Rarely, for a high price, they will assassinate targets who seem to have no powerful friends. They are dangerous, professional criminals, but the city-state's elite are smart enough to be familiar with them and to anticipate their moves. Frequently, they take out their frustrations by fighting gang wars against each other. Rarely, their pride moves them to fight duels and street battles against patricians. While they could easily assassinate a huge number in the city, that would bring about immediate martial law and a confrontation with the combined forces of the External Army and the Squires of the Road. Very rarely, the City Government assassinates a high-ranking criminal, typically framing a competitor organization. New members typically come from discontented farmers, discouraged poachers, displaced brothel workers, and foreigners. )
Might:2
Treasure: 2 or 3
Territory: 1 (several rented "safe houses")
Influence:1
Sovereignty:2 or 3
7.Typical Large Farm Estate Within City-State (lower class) (many dozens exist, outside the city walls)
(These estates are dominated by wealthy land-owners, propped up by the frequent visits of the Squires of the Road. If the squires ever were to stop visiting, the farms would immediately suffer a crisis as farm workers would either attempt pilfering, riot, public disorder, or contract-breaking. However, the City-State encourages these bucolic peasants to practice archery and spear-fighting, and to volunteer for the External Professional Army if they feel any inclination to violence. Farmers try to keep clean with sponge baths and -- if they are lucky -- saunas.)
Might:0
Treasure:1
Territory:1 (farmhouses, barns, fields)
Influence:0
Sovereignty:3
8.Typical Poacher Gang (lower class) (about half a dozen gangs, outside city walls, subject to slow decay by attrition)
(These runaway farmers don't like getting up early to milk the livestock. They live in the deep forest, refuse to be counted or to pay taxes, and try to poach the city's deer. Much of the time they end up eating rat, chipmunk, and raccoon instead, having discovered that making arrows is harder than it looks. The most competent and ambitious might become bandits some day. The less competent might enter the city and end up working for a Typical Criminal Organization.)
Might: 1
Treasure: 0
Territory:0
Influence: 0
Sovereignty: 1 or 2
9.Typical Bandit Gang (lower class) (less than half a dozen gangs, outside city walls, subject to frequent bankruptcy) (These cut-throats are ruthless, inventive, and completely willing to run away in order to fight another day. Any tax-collecting party that gets too far away from reinforcements will fall prey to these killers. They could be persuaded by a small sum of money to take up terrorism in this land, or in any other. Unlike city criminals, these bandits can barely restrain their bloodlust.)
Might:2
Treasure:1
Territory:1 (several spartan camps maintained to military standards of hygiene)
Influence:0
Sovereignty:2 or 3
Quote from: riprockAlso, you make a good point about 0 Sovereignty companies not lasting for any length of time. I had wondered how that would fit together with pooling Followers. Even if the company had 0 Sovereignty, could the Followers still be loyal to their leader PCs? That question may have no precise answer, and it might be better to just hand out the PCs points for sovereignty rather than elaborate a shaky theoretical edifice.
My interpretation: if you've pooled your followers, they're no longer "your" followers, they're the Company's resources that you might just happen to use frequently. If the Company hits 0 Sovereignty, they get pissed off and go home like everyone else. You
might be able to convince them to re-enter your personal service (paying the XP to buy the "Followers" advantage again), but it'd require some fancy persuasion.
If you want to be sure you have followers which are yours, you need to buy the relevant advantage and
not give them up to be part of the communal Company pool. If you have enough Followers, of course, you can use them to back up and reinforce the Company's Might when necessary.
Quote from: Casey777Interesting, keep wanting to check out Reign. Is it mainly for playing kingdoms or can it do merc groups like The Black or White companies (fantasy / 100 Years War), or "corporations" like guilds, Ghostbusters, and Wolfram & Hart?
All of the above should work just fine in REIGN.
QuoteDo the players have to all be in the same company, or can they have opposing companies or even one company per player?
The rules seem to assume that the players are all in the same Company, but there's absolutely nothing stopping you from running it as a PvP, Company-vs.-Company game.
Here's a question:
Suppose Invader A is:
Might 3
Territory 0
Treasure 3
Influence 0
Sovereignty 3
And Country B is:
Might 2
Territory 3
Treasure 2
Influence 2
Sovereignty 2
Invader A attacks twice in a month, reducing Sovereignty of B first to 1, then to 0. Invader A has a point of Might left to maintain order, and after the month passes, Country B is entirely ruled by Invader A; the old government is no more.
Because Country B had more points, Invader A is entitled to add 2 points. But since the mingling of territory is not willing, Invader A should lose some Sovereignty. Suppose Invader A insists on keeping tight discipline, so it adds a point of Sovereignty to get back to 3.
This means there is only one point to be added. If it's Influence, I guess that means that Invader A's army is still living in tents, but they know some local people so that they can get gossip. If it's Territory, I guess that means that they are the undisputed owners of several buildings that serve as their headquarters, but they still have no influence.
Alternately, one can say that Invader A allows Sovereignty to drop, but takes a point of Territory plus a point of Influence. Either way, it goes from a nine-point company to a ten-point company... unless the GM decides it didn't lose sovereignty from invasion, in which case it goes from 9 points to 11 points. To me, the rules don't seem very clear on whether violent invaders should lose Sovereignty by invading. Common sense would suggest that newly invaded citizens would be less than thrilled, and victorious troops would tend to loot and disobey orders, so it would make sense to me. (Judging from p. 137, I would say that Invader A only loses sovereignty if they try to sugar-coat it. If they're honest enough to say, "Yes, we slaughtered your rulers," then I wouldn't penalize them the point of Sovereignty. However, if they do try to sugar-coat it, it looks like their conquest is a "mingling" and therefore Invader A should be able to get the full 3 Territory and 2 Influence, going from a 9-point army to a 13-point country in one fell swoop. That's certainly faster than doing it two points at a time with small, measured conquests.)
Assuming it wants to take over all the old territory of the former government, it has a lot of expansion to do. Presumably Territory is the most vital stat -- the best tactic is to use the two dots of improvement to seize 2 points of Territory, which makes perfect sense considering that there is a 3-point slice of Territory that had a government until last month.
Given Territory, it is easier to make rolls on Improving the Culture (Territory+Treasure boosts Sovereignty) and Rise in Stature (Sovereignty and Treasure boosts Influence).
Edit:
Whatever the result, suppose the next target is Country C, with
Might 4
Territory 2
Treasure 6
Influence 4
Sovereignty 6.
Assuming Invader A manages to conquer it, Invader A is entitled to boost two points -- but suppose it wants to merge with the target so as to get that Treasure 6. Such a merger would require conquest, of course ... but the boost to Treasure would be more than 2 points. From p.143, it looks to me as if Invader A can choose to go from Treasure 3 to Treasure 5 by conquest, but the only way to get to Treasure 6 from Country C is to somehow negotiate a legal, willing merger. However, p. 137 seems to contradict this.
Another example:
Invader X has
Might 3
Territory 0
Treasure 3
Influence 0
Sovereignty 3
Victim Y has
Might 2
Territory 3
Treasure 3
Influence 3
Sovereignty 2
After Invader X conquers and assimilates Victim Y, I believe the result will have:
Might 3
Territory 3
Treasure 4
Influence 3
Sovereignty 2.
That's a grotesquely huge 6-point leap from a relatively doable conquest.
Quote from: riprockThis means there is only one point to be added. If it's Influence, I guess that means that Invader A's army is still living in tents, but they know some local people so that they can get gossip. If it's Territory, I guess that means that they are the undisputed owners of several buildings that serve as their headquarters, but they still have no influence.
This assumes that they aren't snatching any territory or loot as part of their invasion actions, which they really
should be doing, unless they are actually going for a scorched-earth policy where they salt the earth and render down all the cultural artifacts of Country B.
QuoteAlternately, one can say that Invader A allows Sovereignty to drop, but takes a point of Territory plus a point of Influence. Either way, it goes from a nine-point company to a ten-point company... unless the GM decides it didn't lose sovereignty from invasion, in which case it goes from 9 points to 11 points. To me, the rules don't seem very clear on whether violent invaders should lose Sovereignty by invading. Common sense would suggest that newly invaded citizens would be less than thrilled, and victorious troops would tend to loot and disobey orders, so it would make sense to me.
I would say that conquering armies should not arbitrarily lose Sovereignty.
Country B hasn't been subject to a forcible merger if its Sovereignty is reduced to 0 - it's
destroyed, the state apparatus is scattered, the nation is no more and nobody feels any special loyalty towards it (this is assuming that the Company modelled by "Country B" is the state apparatus of Country B). If the GM feels that there should be some kind of resistance movement from the citizenry he could put together a separate Company, but the Sovereignty of Rebellion C shouldn't have anything to do with that of Invader A.
Whilst looting and pillaging could be seen as a failure of discipline, two points:
- It's only a failure of discipline if you order your soldiers not to indulge in it in the first place. Populist generals may wish to simply let the soldiers have their fun for morale purposes.
- Victory makes you popular. Sure, maybe the soldiers are being a bit boisterous, but they also think you, the general, are the bee's knees for leading them to victory. This effect should counteract any slight discipline problems.
QuoteAssuming it wants to take over all the old territory of the former government, it has a lot of expansion to do. Presumably Territory is the most vital stat -- the best tactic is to use the two dots of improvement to seize 2 points of Territory, which makes perfect sense considering that there is a 3-point slice of Territory that had a government until last month.
Bear in mind that Territory doesn't just represent quantity of land - it also represents quality of land, and the general productiveness of its occupants. Your territory is only 1 after a successful invasion? Well, clearly most of the land has been wrecked - the economy's in tatters, the fields are bare, and the nation in general simply isn't being very productive.
Quote from: WarthurI would say that conquering armies should not arbitrarily lose Sovereignty.
Country B hasn't been subject to a forcible merger if its Sovereignty is reduced to 0 - it's destroyed, the state apparatus is scattered, the nation is no more and nobody feels any special loyalty towards it (this is assuming that the Company modelled by "Country B" is the state apparatus of Country B). If the GM feels that there should be some kind of resistance movement from the citizenry he could put together a separate Company, but the Sovereignty of Rebellion C shouldn't have anything to do with that of Invader A.
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Bear in mind that Territory doesn't just represent quantity of land - it also represents quality of land,
Aha, good point on Territory.
As for reducing Sovereignty to 0 destroying a company, that's a big change in my thinking. That would imply that all its stats go to zero, and there's no points left for a merger.
By contrast, reducing Territory to 0 while leaving Sovereignty intact means that there's someone with whom a peace treaty can be signed.
So to capture a prize with a lot of points, reduce Territory and one other stat, excluding Sovereignty, to Zero. At that point, the non-zero Sovereignty will allow the remnants of the government to sign over their remaining points.
Consider a case with two fire wizards. Together, the two wizards fight as a Might 3 army, but unlike an army, they can fight every day, not three times a month.
The wizards have an entourage that is just a cult. It's Sovereignty 6, and zero in everything else. So they're dressed in rags, but they are coherent.
Suppose the wizards reduce Territory and Might down to 0 in some victim kingdom. The merger is unwilling, of course.
That means when the dust clears, the new merger has the old Might rating of the conquered kingdom, the old Territory, the old Treasure, the old Influence -- and Sovereignty 5. Of course, points are lost if Treasure or Territory had been captured before, so the best targets are Might and Influence.
Edit- Actually, if the GM allows the players to loot a Treasure 3 company and receive 9 Wealth, then bring Territory down to 0, perhaps the new merger could start with Treasure 0 then get bumped back to Treasure 3 when the players re-invest the loot.
As Fred Forsyth wrote in "The Dogs of War," stealing a whole country has a certain style.
E.g.
If "raiding" is done successfully, the attacked gains Treasure 1 and the defender has treasure x-1. But that means when the dust clears, the resulting merger will only have x-1 Treasure! So Might and Influence are better targets, because they regenerate -- or so it looks from reading the rules.
Also, "unconventional warfare" requires an "influence plus might" roll to do the deed, and another roll at -2d to escape, so a hypothetical Sovereignty 6 zero everything else company would provide zero support to a Might 3 virtual army of mages.
Quote from: riprockAha, good point on Territory.
As for reducing Sovereignty to 0 destroying a company, that's a big change in my thinking. That would imply that all its stats go to zero, and there's no points left for a merger.
Not quite; as the REIGN rules for conquest specify, you do get to grab a few points as the thing crumbles, unless your Company is sufficiently bigger than the one you've just "killed" that it doesn't have anything worth taking.
Bear in mind that the Company chapter has different rules for mergers than for conquests.
QuoteBy contrast, reducing Territory to 0 while leaving Sovereignty intact means that there's someone with whom a peace treaty can be signed.
So to capture a prize with a lot of points, reduce Territory and one other stat, excluding Sovereignty, to Zero. At that point, the non-zero Sovereignty will allow the remnants of the government to sign over their remaining points.
Again, not quite. If you put enough of a squeeze on people, they could well agree to a merger, but it's not as simple as "handing over points".
QuoteConsider a case with two fire wizards. Together, the two wizards fight as a Might 3 army, but unlike an army, they can fight every day, not three times a month.
Well, system-wise they can't. If they fight as a Might 3 army, then they can take part in 3 military-scale actions per month. That's pretty fucking good going for two individuals, but they can't take on armies on a daily basis.
QuoteSuppose the wizards reduce Territory and Might down to 0 in some victim kingdom. The merger is unwilling, of course.
Actually, reducing Territory and Might is the other way you destroy companies, so the wizards and their cult get to take 2 points. To get a merger, they'd have to, say, reduce Might to 0 and Territory to 1, and then say "You wanna surrender,
bitches?" If the kingdom in question surrenders, they get to merge, if it doesn't, well, they'll have to satisfy themselves with the two points.
And bear in mind they can snatch bits of Treasure and Territory in the course of their "invade" actions, on top of the bonus points for conquest.
QuoteE.g.
If "raiding" is done successfully, the attacked gains Treasure 1 and the defender has treasure x-1. But that means when the dust clears, the resulting merger will only have x-1 Treasure! So Might and Influence are better targets, because they regenerate -- or so it looks from reading the rules.
Only if you have a successful merger as opposed to a conquest.
Quote from: WarthurWell, system-wise they can't. If they fight as a Might 3 army, then they can take part in 3 military-scale actions per month. That's pretty fucking good going for two individuals, but they can't take on armies on a daily basis.
Clearly I don't understand the rules.
If you have two Fire Dancers who can successfully cast the biggest spell, Cataclysmic Transformation, each is a Might 2 army. They can merge into a Might 3 army. (Although in a free downloadable supplement, Stolze gloats about how hard it is to get the rolls necessary to keep Fire Dancer magic going...)
If the fire dancers are just running around as private individuals, they get to cast the spell every day, right?
So somehow, once they are considered an Army, they can only fight battles three times a month?
That's very counter-intuitive to me.
Might rolls are somewhat abstract by nature. I assume they get only three attacks per month because the game assumes that such things like traveling, resting or wound recovery have to happen between those battles.
Quote from: riprockClearly I don't understand the rules.
If you have two Fire Dancers who can successfully cast the biggest spell, Cataclysmic Transformation, each is a Might 2 army. They can merge into a Might 3 army. (Although in a free downloadable supplement, Stolze gloats about how hard it is to get the rolls necessary to keep Fire Dancer magic going...)
If the fire dancers are just running around as private individuals, they get to cast the spell every day, right?
They can cast the spell every day, yes - so long as they can keep dancing.
For an entire battle.
Frankly, it's amazing they can keep it up as long as they do. I see nothing wrong with saying that after doing this about three times in a month (and channelling the most powerful magics available to them in the bargain) they end up more than a little exhausted.
Alternately, you can say that there's only so much they can do in a month. Say they win the battle and they choose to take territory from the guys who lost; fine. But claiming Territory isn't just about standing there and saying "yo, this is mine", it also entails getting your people in positions of authority and establishing control there, it entails securing the place so the enemy don't just sneak back in and undo all your good work. You can appreciate how two guys with a number of cultist cheerleaders might need to stop and take a while to consolidate before moving on, whereas a conventional army could go through that whole process much more efficiently.
Bottom line: the Company rules entail a certain amount of abstraction, and (especially in far-out cases like this) you need to spin things a little to make them make sense.