I just watched this excellent and informative video by Hedgehobbit:
[video=youtube;DmkyTrdb48c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmkyTrdb48c[/youtube]
It put Bushido on my radar and I wanted to know if folks can recommend other medium complexity RPGs with no or limited player narrative fiat?
Specifically, I'm looking for games like D&D (2e and earlier only), Classic Traveller and BRP (e.g., Call of Cthulhu (6e and earlier only)).
Bonus if they are Old School.
I'm not interested in retroclones.
For me "medium complexity" means, Barbarians of Lemuria is too lite and GURPS is too crunchy.
Additionally by way of example, Savage Worlds is the exact opposite of what I'm looking for:
* Complexity: with the Wild Die, the core mechanic is IMHO more complex than D&D.
* Non-standard resolution: I don't even have a deck of cards
* Player narrative fiat: a no-no
Many thanks in advance!
So games in addition to the ones you mention... early D&D, Traveller, and BRP?
But not those?
I like Unisystem (Armageddon, Witchcraft, All Flesh Must Be Eaten) and D6 (Star Wars)... but IIRC D6 has 'wild dice' too.
GURPS Vorkosigian is a single volume sf game.
Okay, let's see, medium eh? Tunnels and Trolls (yes it is) and Mercenary Spies and Private Eyes come to mind.
James Bond 007, Dark Conspiracy, Villains and Vigilantes, Daredevils, Mechanoid Invasion Book III (the best version of the Palladium rpg)
Quote from: Nuolde;909031Specifically, I'm looking for games like D&D (2e and earlier only), Classic Traveller and BRP (e.g., Call of Cthulhu (6e and earlier only)).
If you like BRP and CoC you might be interested in other games built on the same system. Runequest, Stormbringer/Elric, and Hawkmoon are a few that come to mind right away. (Stormbringer and Elric are the same game, as best as I can tell, but with different titles and somehow different flavor. Maybe someone who is an expert can tell me what makes them different.) Most of Chaosium's product line from the era used the same fundamental rules set, so there may be others I've forgotten about.
Quote from: David Johansen;909035Tunnels and Trolls (yes it is) and Mercenary Spies and Private Eyes come to mind.
I used to play T&T 5E regularly and I agree that it fits your criteria pretty well.
MS&PE is an interesting game in that it is essentially T&T 5E but with an elaborate skill system bolted on. Kind of neat, if you like that additional layer of character depth without much sacrifice of game flow rate.
Tunnels & Trolls: More like low complexity.
BX D&D: Also leaning to low complexity.
Quote from: Nuolde;909031It put Bushido on my radar and I wanted to know if folks can recommend other medium complexity RPGs with no or limited player narrative fiat?
Player narrative fiat wasn't a thing back in the day. The closest any game was luck points or Jame Bond's Hero points. Mostly used to change the outcome of a specific roll. Narrative mechanics had their origins in the creators and fans of roleplaying heavy games like Ars Magica and Vampire the Masquerade. Those games originated in the 1990s
Quote from: Nuolde;909031I'm not interested in retroclones.
(Rolling eyes) You just looking to read rather than play?
Quote from: Nuolde;909031Specifically, I'm looking for games like D&D (2e and earlier only), Classic Traveller and BRP (e.g., Call of Cthulhu (6e and earlier only)).
Using this list.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_pen_and_paper_role-playing_games
Boot HillA Wild West RPG put out by TSR, came out in three editions. Probably you should try to find the 2nd edition.
Metamorphsis Alpha/Gamma WorldAnother set of TSR Games. MA is set on a huge generation starship, GW builds on the mechanics of MA and uses a post-apocalyptic setting. Get first edition Gamma World if you want old school. MA has an affordable reprint of the original.
Star FrontiersYes another TSR Sci-Fi RPG, this one is more straightforward science fiction. Doesn't offer much in terms of world building but it is eminently playable. There is a semi-official site with the original material here. http://starfrontiersman.com/. They have permission to host the material but it is not commercial. This sprung up when Wizards a allow a bunch of sites to host content for discontinued TSR games (Dragonlance, Birthright, etc) in the early 2000s. Some of those site had their permission revoked, this one didn't.
The Fantasy TripGURPS progenitor and far less complicated. There is a thread on this forum that has an ongoing discussion about the game. Unfortunately the owner of the rights has disappeared so all there is, either buy from the collectors market or find one of the retro-clones.
Top SecretTSR's Secret Agent Game. The first edition is pretty solid and old school. But the 2nd edition has more material.
Continuing, Dragonquest is out as most of FGU's games, Universe as well.
ChampionsStarting with the 4th edition and continuing to the present 6th edition Champion and the Hero System became a universal system as complex as GURPS, however the 2nd and 3rd edition of the came was short and to the point and eminently playable. Building a character is about is a complex as making a Classic Book 2 Traveller starship. The big issue, as with all editions of Champion, is how to use the list of generic effect to make the superpower you want.
Marvel Superhero/Conan the RPGBoth of the these used a variant of the FASERIP mechanics which uses a action table as the core mechanics. Especially Marvel is beloved by many and has a unique writing style that is fun to read. There is a very unofficial site where you can find the originals and I won't me linking too as unlike Star Frontiers they don't have explicit permission to do what they are doing. There also FASERIP retro-clones floating around.
I am not going to recommend Rolemaster or Middle Earth Roleplaing. MERP probably be within your desired complexity but just barely. However it is expensive to obtain on the collector's market.
PacesetterPacesetter came out with a series of games like Chill, Star Ace, Timemaster. Some of these have current reprint of the originals. I lump these together because they all use the Pacesetter house system.
HarnmasterThe first edition rules are about as complex as BRP. Uses percentile and doesn't use hit points. Instead you accumulate injury which reduces your ability to succeed on ability checks/saves and skill rolls. Every hit has some type of saving throw involved, usually a characteristic roll. These saving throws are where the really bad things happen like amputation, knockout, death, etc. Injury makes it more difficult to save. Works quite elegantly in play and way faster than other systems of similar complexity. One of the few RPGs where i seen players actually roleplay combat as the injury system makes it crystal clear what happening to the character and his opponents. And yes I am a big fan of this game.
FASA Star TrekAn oldie but goodie in a 1st edition and 2nd edition version. If you start piling on all the supplement the game can get a bit complex but the core books are solid. Probably has the best system for RPG Starship combat ever made. You could play the combat system like a wargame, player vs. player with both marking up record sheets. However when you use it in a campaign, they cleverly divided up the different things you have to do into control panels for each player (enginnering, helm, communication/damage control, science, etc). It operate with a minimum of fiddling around with the rules and the biggest issues is not the mechanics but the players having to communicate as a team vs. the GM running their opponent.
I would go with 1st edition as it more old school. 2nd edition is fine but it complexity starts edging toward the high end as they not only cleaned up rules but expanded things.
And yes I am a fan of both editions of FASA Star Trek.
Not going to recommend Twilight 2000 or 2300AD. Not going to recommend Palladium Fantasy or Rifts either. All these games are on the complex end of the scale.
You may want to give Ghostbuster RPG a try, or Warhammer 1st edition.
That about it for me, Enjoy!
Quote from: Omega;909069Tunnels & Trolls: More like low complexity.
You know, this is a really weird false idea that people have. Let's look at the list. Strength and Dexterity requirements for weapons. Huge list of specific weapons with their own stats. Armor as damage reduction with fighters getting a multiplier. Fractional racial stat multipliers. Open ended saving throws. Missile weapon to hit multiplier table. Even combat is actually pretty complex with missile weapons and attack spells causing damage whether the fight is won or not and the option for group or individual combat totals. It's fast and loose but it's not really simple.
Quote from: David Johansen;909081You know, this is a really weird false idea that people have. Let's look at the list. Strength and Dexterity requirements for weapons. Huge list of specific weapons with their own stats. Armor as damage reduction with fighters getting a multiplier. Fractional racial stat multipliers. Open ended saving throws. Missile weapon to hit multiplier table. Even combat is actually pretty complex with missile weapons and attack spells causing damage whether the fight is won or not and the option for group or individual combat totals. It's fast and loose but it's not really simple.
Not sure what version you are basing off then since combat is a pretty easy sort of contest roll with a gradual degredation of potency.
And since when was a list of weapons to buy "complexity"?
Hello all,
Thanks much for the replies and feedback!
Also, sorry for vagueness on “
player narrative fiat”- I’m specifically not interested in player metagaming currency.
However, something that “flows from the
character” (yes, that’s a Star Wars joke), such as Willpower in Exalted, Force Points in d6 Star Wars or an M-U's Wish spell are fine.
Quote from: Simlasa;909034So games in addition to the ones you mention... early D&D, Traveller, and BRP?
But not those?
I like Unisystem (Armageddon, Witchcraft, All Flesh Must Be Eaten) and D6 (Star Wars)... but IIRC D6 has 'wild dice' too.
Yes, I'm quite familiar with early D&D, Traveller, and BRP, thanks.
I'd forgotten about All Flesh Must Be Eaten, thanks!
Quote from: finarvyn;909065If you like BRP and CoC you might be interested in other games built on the same system. Runequest, Stormbringer/Elric, and Hawkmoon are a few that come to mind right away. (Stormbringer and Elric are the same game, as best as I can tell, but with different titles and somehow different flavor. Maybe someone who is an expert can tell me what makes them different.) Most of Chaosium's product line from the era used the same fundamental rules set, so there may be others I've forgotten about.
I used to play T&T 5E regularly and I agree that it fits your criteria pretty well.
MS&PE is an interesting game in that it is essentially T&T 5E but with an elaborate skill system bolted on. Kind of neat, if you like that additional layer of character depth without much sacrifice of game flow rate.
Stormbringer is one I've been interested in, but I believe it's OOP?
MS&PE is a thing that I didn’t knew existed!
Quote from: estar;909070(Rolling eyes) You just looking to read rather than play?
Well, as a GM, I do have a captive audience... *evil GM cackle* :D
Also, re retroclones specifically, personally I prefer to start with the source material and make the interpretations/alterations that I think are important. If I want someone else's take on the source material, there are plenty of videos, forums and blogs. :D
The Pacesetter games are things that I didn’t knew existed!
"Old school" pretty much precludes "player narrative fiat," in my book any way, but I get the aversion and thus the clarification.
You should check out Stormbringer or its various incarnations (4 editions I think, 6 including Elric! and Magic World). They are all out of print but you can find them used pretty reasonably. Runequest 6, soon to be Mythras, is awesome but it is slightly more complex. These and other Chaosium style d100 based games (Cthulhu, Openquest, BRP) are 90-95% compatible. These are my go-to games so naturally I recommend them, (GURPs and TFT are certainly great games as well - though the latest edition of GURPs is way Crunchy), but it really depends on what you want to do with your game... a little more information would be helpful.
Estar has a point that retroclones are often more clearly written and organized than the originals.
D&D 5e
It's not a retroclone but it has something of that vibe and style of play. Mechanically, it's much simpler that D&D 3.X (I include Pathfinder here) or D&D4. it uses a D20+bonuses>=target number mechanic. Skill checks are attribute checks. Characters that are proficient in a skill get a standard proficiency bonus based on level. Level 1-4 characters get a +2. It has inspirations but they are not really a meta mechanic. They are a one time bennie for doing something cool or good role-playing however the DM defines that. They let you roll a D20 twice and pick the one you want to use once.
Quote from: Omega;909082Not sure what version you are basing off then since combat is a pretty easy sort of contest roll with a gradual degredation of potency.
And since when was a list of weapons to buy "complexity"?
5th edition, though the later editions are more complex.
It's the complexity of having to find a weapon you can use and each weapon having different stats.
And combat isn't really all that simple, for instance in group combat you have to divide the hits evenly amongst the party. People bitch about division in GURPS all the time but not in Tunnels and Trolls.
Also I forgot scalable spells that require multiplication.
Incidentally I like Tunnels and Trolls but it's not really as dead simple as people seem to think.
Quote from: Madprofessor;909143"Old school" pretty much precludes "player narrative fiat," in my book any way, but I get the aversion and thus the clarification.
You should check out Stormbringer or its various incarnations (4 editions I think, 6 including Elric! and Magic World). They are all out of print but you can find them used pretty reasonably. Runequest 6, soon to be Mythras, is awesome but it is slightly more complex. These and other Chaosium style d100 based games (Cthulhu, Openquest, BRP) are 90-95% compatible. These are my go-to games so naturally I recommend them, (GURPs and TFT are certainly great games as well - though the latest edition of GURPs is way Crunchy), but it really depends on what you want to do with your game... a little more information would be helpful.
Just to add a few additional details:
Magic World is
Stormbringer/Elric after Chaosium lost the license and had to remove its Moorcockian skin. That is a good or bad thing depending on what you want to do with it.
The first edition of
Stormbringer is incredibly random. Your new character might be a powerful sorcerer or he might be a leprous beggar. We had a lot of fun with it in the day, as it is a fairly deadly game even for powerful characters, so we would just play the hell out of whatever we got, then roll up something entirely new and random when they died. It's definitely not a style that all players can embrace. Later editions are a lot more balanced, which is both a good and bad thing.
It is also worth mentioning
Elric of Melnibone for Mongoose's RQII. While
Stormbringer is a fantastic game, it is a fairly loose interpretation of how magic works in the books.
Elric of Melnibone is much closer the books. It's done by the authors of RQ6/Mythras, and is basically 100% compatible, as opposed to the usual 90-95% compatibility you get with BRP.
QuoteEstar has a point that retroclones are often more clearly written and organized than the originals.
So true. I have been running D&D B/X for my nephews. I still have the original boxed sets, but I got
Labyrinth Lord so that I had a copy my nephews could abuse. I've found it far easier to work from.
There are also just some games that are fantastic in their own right in the OSR scene as well.
Quote from: Madprofessor;909143Estar has a point that retroclones are often more clearly written and organized than the originals.
My view it works out best to use both. By all means read the original, and then read the retro-clone to get another take on the same game. Then come up with what you are going to use for your campaign. Most referee kitbash their campaigns anyway.
For example Philotomy's Musings (http://www.grey-elf.com/philotomy.pdf) are a great companion to OD&D, and Swords & Wizardry has a readily editable word doc that you can cut and paste out of to make any type of supporting stuff you need.
Quote from: David Johansen;9092075th edition, though the later editions are more complex.
It's the complexity of having to find a weapon you can use and each weapon having different stats.
And combat isn't really all that simple, for instance in group combat you have to divide the hits evenly amongst the party. People bitch about division in GURPS all the time but not in Tunnels and Trolls.
Also I forgot scalable spells that require multiplication.
Incidentally I like Tunnels and Trolls but it's not really as dead simple as people seem to think.
Actually combat damage is not divided evenly unless the group wants to divide it that way. The side that loses a round of combat decides how they want to divide the hits they take. Usually the bulk of the hits go to Warriors wearing heavy armour, armour absorbs hits and Warriors get to double armour protection so it makes sense for them to be allocated the hits which are then absorbed by armour.
The current Deluxe Tunnels & Trolls adds to the weapon charts, which always had minimum attribute requirements, options for customizing weapons.
Limted or no player fiat is a tricky one with T&T. The heart of resolution is the Saving Roll. In combat and other situations in which the players may want to try a trick or something unusual the GM sets a difficulty level and has the player make a Saving Roll. But teh difficulty is always set by the GM, so it is never a certainty.
Talislanta 2e or 3e are good candidates for the OP. Free to download these days. Once you get to 4e it starts to get a bit narrative-y in the magic system, but still not too much.
Quote from: yosemitemike;909197D&D 5e
It's not a retroclone but it has something of that vibe and style of play. Mechanically, it's much simpler that D&D 3.X (I include Pathfinder here) or D&D4. it uses a D20+bonuses>=target number mechanic. Skill checks are attribute checks. Characters that are proficient in a skill get a standard proficiency bonus based on level. Level 1-4 characters get a +2. It has inspirations but they are not really a meta mechanic. They are a one time bennie for doing something cool or good role-playing however the DM defines that. They let you roll a D20 twice and pick the one you want to use once.
I do like that WotC has moved the dial back w/5e toward older editions in certain ways but IMHO hit points for Thieves and M-Us are way too high (d8 (!!!) and d6, respectively).
In OD&D and B/X, Thieves have d4 hit dice. They are meant to die horribly. :D
Quote from: Baulderstone;909208Just to add a few additional details:Magic World is Stormbringer/Elric after Chaosium lost the license and had to remove its Moorcockian skin. That is a good or bad thing depending on what you want to do with it.
The first edition of Stormbringer is incredibly random. Your new character might be a powerful sorcerer or he might be a leprous beggar. We had a lot of fun with it in the day, as it is a fairly deadly game even for powerful characters, so we would just play the hell out of whatever we got, then roll up something entirely new and random when they died. It's definitely not a style that all players can embrace. Later editions are a lot more balanced, which is both a good and bad thing.
That sounds pretty damn cool.
Quote from: estar;909214My view it works out best to use both. By all means read the original, and then read the retro-clone to get another take on the same game. Then come up with what you are going to use for your campaign. Most referee kitbash their campaigns anyway.
For example Philotomy's Musings (http://www.grey-elf.com/philotomy.pdf) are a great companion to OD&D, and Swords & Wizardry has a readily editable word doc that you can cut and paste out of to make any type of supporting stuff you need.
I don't agree with everything, but Philotomy's Musings is overall quite excellent.
Quote from: Arminius;909240Talislanta 2e or 3e are good candidates for the OP. Free to download these days. Once you get to 4e it starts to get a bit narrative-y in the magic system, but still not too much.
I have Talislanta 1e, but will have to look at 2e & 3e, thanks!
Another RPG collection thread.
Quote from: Nuolde;909341I do like that WotC has moved the dial back w/5e toward older editions in certain ways but IMHO hit points for Thieves and M-Us are way too high (d8 (!!!) and d6, respectively).
In OD&D and B/X, Thieves have d4 hit dice. They are meant to die horribly. :D
I have found that to be unpopular with players. I can't imagine why.
Stormbringer - Try to get the last Chaosium Edition (5th). If you like RuneQuest and Call of Cthulhu, it's pretty much completes the 'trilogy' of original Chaosium games.
Mythras/RuneQuest 6 - Not sure if this is a retroclone or not, and the combat system sometimes draws sharp breaths from BRP fans, but it's a great comprehensive and committed attempt at doing a generic, gritty BRP game with some good supplements.
Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0 - Straight shooting system, even if the game world is dated (almost literally soon!)
Champions - possibly - although I find it way to complex, personally. Certainly old school though.
Pendragon - Polished/modified version of BRP, specific to Authurian gaming.
And for the point of asking the question, does Old School totally preclude things like Amber and Ars Magica?
Quote from: yosemitemike;909358I have found that to be unpopular with players. I can't imagine why.
At my table, the role of thief generally goes to the most clever and daring player. IMHO, giving a thief too many HP changes the feel and tone of a game by altering the risk/reward ratio.
But, then again, as a GM, I emphasize and encourage player skill over character abilities. YMMV :D
Quote from: TrippyHippy;909387Stormbringer - Try to get the last Chaosium Edition (5th). If you like RuneQuest and Call of Cthulhu, it's pretty much completes the 'trilogy' of original Chaosium games.
Mythras/RuneQuest 6 - Not sure if this is a retroclone or not, and the combat system sometimes draws sharp breaths from BRP fans, but it's a great comprehensive and committed attempt at doing a generic, gritty BRP game with some good supplements.
Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0 - Straight shooting system, even if the game world is dated (almost literally soon!)
Champions - possibly - although I find it way to complex, personally. Certainly old school though.
Pendragon - Polished/modified version of BRP, specific to Authurian gaming.
And for the point of asking the question, does Old School totally preclude things like Amber and Ars Magica?
Thanks for the suggestions!
Amber is diceless, which is IMHO another hallmark of New School. Don't get me wrong- I'm not saying that New School is bad, just that it's not what I want to GM. :D
I really like Ars Magica as a player, but it's a bit too crunchy for me as a GM. :D
Quote from: Nuolde;909520Amber is diceless, which is IMHO another hallmark of New School. Don't get me wrong- I'm not saying that New School is bad, just that it's not what I want to GM. :D
I really like Ars Magica as a player, but it's a bit too crunchy for me as a GM. :D
Its a tricky one, as they are old games, but are still definitely abticedents of 'New School' sensibilities. Indeed, I think most of the ideas in 'new' games can be found in older games - Toon, Paranoia, Ghostbusters, Prince Valiant, Minds Eye Theatre (Live action Vampire), Over The Edge, Amber and Ars Magica. Sometimes the distinction is blurred.
In the case of Ars Magica, check out an early edition (1st or 2nd). You'll be surprised at just how much simpler it was when it started.
Amber dice-less also depends on a lot of player nararitive fiat. Many things in the game happen because and how the players say they do. With the right GM and players it can be excellent, with others, not so much. It also is not what I would call Old School.
Quote from: DavetheLost;909221Limted or no player fiat is a tricky one with T&T. The heart of resolution is the Saving Roll. In combat and other situations in which the players may want to try a trick or something unusual the GM sets a difficulty level and has the player make a Saving Roll. But teh difficulty is always set by the GM, so it is never a certainty.
The saving roll system is totally a fiat system which is one of the reasons T&T has a reputation for simplicity but the fiat isn't "narrative fiat" it's "how hard do you think that should be" fiat with virtually no guide lines as to what a fair difficulty level is.
I like thieves having a little more hit points than magic-users.
Quote from: RPGPundit;910532I like thieves having a little more hit points than magic-users.
Yes, that doesn't break my sense of verisimilitude.
However, giving thieves the same hp as clerics (as in 5e D&D) does break my sense of verisimilitude (it strikes me as far to video-gamey).
IMHO, if you want to play a stealthy PC who can stand up in the front line of battle, you should play a fighter-type and use player skill to make him/her stealthy. :D
Has every game been mentioned yet? Who won?
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;912562Has every game been mentioned yet? Who won?
Dont think anyone mentioned Rifts yet. :)
Quote from: RPGPundit;910532I like thieves having a little more hit points than magic-users.
Agreed it gives them enough cushion to actually do there job.
After all its not like a thief sits on his ass all day reading about magic the way the mage dose.
And they are likely athletic and agile while they may not be the strongest and they most defiantly aren't made out of tissue paper.
Quote from: Nuolde;912545Yes, that doesn't break my sense of verisimilitude.
However, giving thieves the same hp as clerics (as in 5e D&D) does break my sense of verisimilitude (it strikes me as far to video-gamey).
IMHO, if you want to play a stealthy PC who can stand up in the front line of battle, you should play a fighter-type and use player skill to make him/her stealthy. :D
My preferred breakdown for wizard/thief/cleric/fighter is either d4/d6/d8/d10 or d4/d6/d6/d8.