RuneQuest II Empires
Song of Ice and Fire Roleplaying
HarnManor

I have those three and are pretty familiar with them.

ACKS
An Echo Resounding
Reign
These all have some type of systems that I'm not that familiar with.

Is there anyone who knows the first three products, who can give me the short version of how they compare to the bottom threeo products, or anything else that you know of for domain management, economies, etc.

Pathfinder has some fairly portable rules

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/kingdom-building

I don't have the first three, so can't compare to the one on the second list that I have, ACKS. But ACKS is basically like Companion D&D - you get X amount of money per family per month.

I know ACKS and Reign, as well as RQ2 Empires. Not familiar with Harn or SoIaF. Skimmed AER once.

ACKS is for the most part a revision and refinement of the Companion set subsystem, which is fairly hardcore simulationist. You calculate income by calculating the number of families in the domain and the availability of natural resources. Of course there's plenty of abstraction but there's quite a bit of concern towards nitty-gritty and a modicum of number-crunching. It also expands on the henchmen and hireling morale subsystem to set up rules for empires ruled by vassals. Distinct entries cover criminal empires and Travelleresque mercantile ventures.

Reign is very, very abstract. Organizations are called Companies and get a character sheet of their own, with Company-specific attributes. It's similar to RQ2 only far more flexible; a Company can be a vast empire or a church or a mercantile outfit, among others. In addition to attributes, they get perks and drawbacks of their own to reflect things such as fanatical followers or spy networks.

I don't know most of these, but An Echo, Resounding reads like a pretty good abstract system which is supposed to work 'underneath' the actual adventuring - the heroes go to do this-and-that, and meantime this is how their lands develop.

Basically, every location - villages, towns, fishing sites, etc. - has three values for Military, Economic and Social potential. When you build something - say, a church, or a unit of militia - it uses up some of those points, but some buildings can also give you more points to use besides whatever other advantage they provide. (Of course there's more it, like solving problems that prevent a location from reaching its full potential, but this is just a quick description.) One thing it doesn't really do - and as I understand, this is rather different from ACKS - is give you specific numbers on how many gold coins (or gold coins' worth of goods) are being produced and spent: the system abstracts all that away, even though there IS an option to withdraw cash from the economy. It also ties PC development into the management game: as you gain XP during your adventures, you also gain various special bonuses to your management and army-leading skills.


Another option you might want to consider is the domain system from Melan's Sword & Magic game. It's really simple, specifically geared towards the question of How much gold is flowing into my coffers?, but also gives you various management options like developing and safeguarding your lands, etc.. If you're looking for a simple system that runs in the background while the heroes are adventuring, it's really great for that.
The catch is, it's not available in English. However, if someone actually asks for it, I'd be happy to knock together a quick bullet-point version of the rules with the prose removed, it really shouldn't be a big deal.

PS: Melan's an economist, and his rules are vaguely based on actual regional development theory.

I've read Chivalry and Sorcery first and third edition, AD&D 1e DMG, D&D Companion, Warhammer Mighty Empires (the old boxed game), Settlers of Catan, Avalon Hill's Civilization.  Since I really haven't read many recent realm management supplements I'll be watching this thread with interest.

I've been playing around with the idea for Dragon Shadowed Lands.  But I haven't gotten much beyond that hexes will only be able to support a certain population and man power (or whatever you call it these days) will be the main currency.

I waffle between the idea that overly detailed realm management is a distraction from roleplaying and needs to be abstract and simple and the idea that realm management should be a game unto itself.  I'll probably wind up writing both as that's what I usually do.

Pendragon has local level (one village) and noble level (barony or above) rules. The core rules has villages but you need to pick up the Book of the Estate to play nobles, and only for the early periods.

Depends.  What are you looking for, smooth playability or accuracy?

Of the ones you mentioned that I'm familiar with, ACKS is the best. For details about it you should try to find my review of ACKS in the reviews forum.

In any case, it depends on how much attention you want to give the subject; I assume a lot, since you're asking?

Quote from: Ravenswing;756170Depends.  What are you looking for, smooth playability or accuracy?

Definitely accuracy over abstractness, and I guess completeness overall, taking into account multiple aspects of a realm.

Quote from: RPGPundit;756568Of the ones you mentioned that I'm familiar with, ACKS is the best. For details about it you should try to find my review of ACKS in the reviews forum.

In any case, it depends on how much attention you want to give the subject; I assume a lot, since you're asking?

Yes, quite a bit.  I don't have a problem even with a completely separate realm minigame, the players are interested in more detail and mechanics, rather then make a few rolls for the stuff that happens between adventures.

I've started reading the ACKS domain rules.

Quote from: JeremyR;755957Pathfinder has some fairly portable rules.

I didn't know PF had such complete official and unoffical SRD sites.  That's a great reference, thanks.

Quote from: Premier;755985However, if someone actually asks for it, I'd be happy to knock together a quick bullet-point version of the rules with the prose removed, it really shouldn't be a big deal.

I wouldn't want to put you out, but if you have the time, that would be greatly appreciated.

Quote from: Crabbyapples;756111Pendragon has local level (one village) and noble level (barony or above) rules. The core rules has villages but you need to pick up the Book of the Estate to play nobles, and only for the early periods.

Nice, didn't think about Pendragon, have to check that out too.

Quote from: CRKrueger;756578Nice, didn't think about Pendragon, have to check that out too.

I know I forgot something. The Book of the Manor is pretty much necessary for long-term detailed domain management.

Quote from: CRKrueger;755950RuneQuest II Empires
Song of Ice and Fire Roleplaying
HarnManor

I have those three and are pretty familiar with them.

ACKS
An Echo Resounding
Reign
These all have some type of systems that I'm not that familiar with.

Is there anyone who knows the first three products, who can give me the short version of how they compare to the bottom threeo products, or anything else that you know of for domain management, economies, etc.

HarnManor excels at simulating the management of a single estate. Roughly at Classic Traveller level of quality and detail.

ACKS is focus on the level above that. It has estate rules but it designed to calculate out an entire realm worth of estates as well.

A Song of Ice and Fire has a good abstract system for handling the resource and detail of noble houses. Where ACKS basic unit is the estate, Harn is the Manor, ASOIAF basic unit is the noble house.

My experience that none of them quite covers everything. Which works best depends on what you want to focus on. As for me I use Harnmanor and Harn material a lot. I would turn to ACKS for the other types of "estates' like mages guild, thieves guild, etc. And mine ASOIAF for details on a noble house as a whole.

If you look into the math behind ACKS you will discover that it can easily be scaled down one more step to cover manors. I believe the designer has said that even he felt that was just a little too much detail. The other nice thing about ACKS' domain system is how well it ties into the rest of D&D's gameplay conceits: high-level rulers, rulers who still adventure, wizard-built dungeons, etc. It also dovetails nicely into other areas that the PCs can get involved in, like high-level magic research, running thieves' guilds, becoming the dominant religion, and, of course, raising armies to crush your enemies and drive them before you while listening to the lamentations of their women. But I digress...

The domain system in ACKS isn't so much a mini-game as it is a driver of D&D-style adventure. It's also pretty crunchy, as it's of a more simulationist bent. An Excel spreadsheet can be very handy (which I know turns a lot of people off), but by no stretch of the imagination is it necessary; the whole thing can be handled just fine on scratch paper.

For a really great example of how the domain system in ACKS works in play, see the play reports here, here, and here. Hope that helps.

Oh, and if you're using the ACKS domain stuff, I'd highly recommend Domains at War for the inevitable clash of armies that results; the Kickstarter is just coming to a conclusion and it should be available later this month.

Quote from: CRKrueger;756575Definitely accuracy over abstractness, and I guess completeness overall, taking into account multiple aspects of a realm.

In which case I've never seen a set of company-published rules that fit your bill.  The following paragraph from the Pathfinder rules link posted above is telling:

QuoteThese rules assume that all of the kingdom's leaders are focused on making the kingdom prosperous and stable, rather than oppressing the citizens and stealing from the treasury. Likewise, the rules assume that the leaders are working together, not competing with each other or working at odds. If the campaign begins to step into those areas, the GM is free to introduce new rules to deal with these activities.

Seriously?  Everyone has the best interests of the land in mind, and everyone agrees on what those interests are?  Everyone's competent, and no one's out to screw things up?  And -- presumably -- the next realm over isn't trying any funny business?

That's one of the major hurdles right there.

Quote from: Ravenswing;757128In which case I've never seen a set of company-published rules that fit your bill.

I think your interpretation of his requirements is more than a little ridiculous. By that measure nothing short of a simulation will suffice. But it's a game, remember? Anyway, not to try and pitch ACKS as being perfect, but it deals with the issues you've brought up: asking boons of subordinates, vassals rebelling, over taxation, slavery, tyranny, and, of course, funny business being conducted by the neighbours (potentially being much of the challenge of domain-level play). Again, if you're more on the simulationist side of the game (which is not the same thing as running an historical simulation), it delivers a very, very cool, gameable take on domains.