Wasn't sure if this belonged here or in the rpg pundits own thread, but anyway I wanted to discuss what we can actually do about the SJWs in the hobby. I've been fighting the good fight for a while now, standing up to those sjw bullies whenever they pop their stupid little heads up. Usually i'll use logic and reason, other times i'll use sarcasm and mockery if i think they're too dense to get the former but it always ends the same. A banning from whatever website or platform it's being discussed on. Normally I wouldn't give a flying rats ass about being banned from a politically charged cesspool, but i'm starting to despair as one community after another falls to this cult. I use community as in specific groups, such as discords, facebook groups and internet forums. Othertimes it will be a game company who made a game i really used to enjoy, though i find it harder and harder to actually enjoy content while trying to overlook the obvious jabs and commentary in their actual products.
I'll buy into a game series, spend my hard earned cash on a line of products and get involved with other players finding people to play the game or discuss the hobby with. It seems great but then give it a year or so and next thing you know either the majority of the online communities or the company itself falls to woke bullshit. Often times you have a group or two that establishes itself as the officially sanctioned unofficial group, (see Genesys RPG, or Savage Worlds). The devs are usually part of that community and use it as an official platform to put out information or interact with their fans. So getting banned from a community is pretty can be pretty upsetting especially when you've already invested heavily into the game line. A bit anecdotal here, but I was banned from a community for discussing the half orcs and their origins. After talking with the admin I was told in no uncertain terms that if I had not been "right leaning" I would not have been banned and instead probably given a warning. I probably have around 400 dollars in physical merchandise from the game company associated in books and game aids. On the other hand with the Genesys RPG, there is an unofficial group that has set itself up as the defacto "community" and acts as if they were speaking on behalf of fantasy flight games and the rpg system, and the actual owners of the game don't seem to care.
Expanding this into OSR, i've found that OSR game communities are hit or miss and lately have been more miss than hit. I'm practically going blind from all the fucking rainbows. Hell even the WHFRP and 40k sites are going more and more woke to a disgusting degree. Not sure how a game with a literal rape monster ever got woke. I invested heavily into 5e D&D when it first came out as well until they got all woke (tomb of annihilation was the last straw for me) now they sit in a box in the attic.
Anyway the point to all this rambling besides just blowing off steam at my frustrations is how do we reasonably oppose these people and successfully gatekeep our hobby without getting yeeted from the internet or pretty much insta banned from a community. It has made me very hesitant to want to pick up new games because I hate to invest my time and money into a game where the devs hate me and would see me put in a fucking gulag if they could and what is apolitical or not woke today, won't necessarily be still apolitical or not woke tomorrow.
TL;DR How do we gatekeep the sjws/progressive nonsense without getting instantly yeeted off the internet.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxglAzZ-zTY
Honestly, I would say do not give money to people who tell you they hate you or who want a very distinct display of bowing and scraping (ie, it is not enough to not be racist, you must be ANTIracist, which sounds a lot to me like ratting on people as the thought police. It is not enough to be tolerant of everyone's sexual degeneracies, you must openly accept them and expose your children to them, etc) and I personally have never cared to play any RPGs with strangers. Expand your player groups by bringing more friends to the hobby. People always talk about not liking some of the newer player base brought in by the interwebs and critical role, I think a lot of older gamers do not actively recruit their friends to play games. I know I did not for a long time, and I am still apprehensive about adding people to our player group.
As for being removed from the internet or even having something spiral to disaster where you can literally get removed from professional life...I would say do not take part in social media. It is literally voluntary cancer.
Next is support the people who seem to think the purpose of gathering to play games, is to play the games. I do think there is something to the idea that any organization that is not actively conservative will become more liberal has some truth to it. In this case though, the idea that can be 'conserved" is no real life drama, ever. That is a principle worth conserving for gaming IMO.
When one of our OSR spaces is destroyed, we must make a new one, and flock to the spaces of like-minded people.
We can support projects that don't preach hatred against us.
We shouldn't try to be an army of a million men, but rather a million armies of one man.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 03, 2021, 02:52:10 PM
When one of our OSR spaces is destroyed, we must make a new one, and flock to the spaces of like-minded people.
We can support projects that don't preach hatred against us.
We shouldn't try to be an army of a million men, but rather a million armies of one man.
I would add a necessary addendum to this: We need to reach out and bring new people into the fold. Without outreach this is plan of attrition where we get ground down. If we bring new players into our midsts... then we have the advantage. Our GM's are better. Our games are better. The best way to serve ourselves and our aims is to take their players from them and show them.
Remember - WE have been here longer than them. They own the name. We own the spirit.
When I spoke out against the hate mob attacking Bob Bledsoe Jr all I got was grief from both sides. It was clear to me at that point that "the SJWs" were not the problem, merely a symptom of the problem. The issue is the entire idea that there's a line where if someone believes anything beyond that line, they need to be banned from RPGs. All that we have now are groups of people arguing as to where the line should be drawn. But any time you have such a line, it will always be moved to include more and more people. That part is inevitable.
The moment you say something like "D&D has always been Inclusive" or "D&D has always been Diverse" you've lost the argument because you are making the case that inclusivity and diversity are qualities on which an RPG should be judge. And if a little Inclusiveness is good, more Inclusiveness is better. So, one again you are simply arguing on how high a percentage of straight while males are allowed to play a game before that game is bad.
We need to completely reject the idea that RPGs should be judge on such criteria. That is the only way out of this mess.
Quote from: Ocule on July 03, 2021, 11:07:15 AMIt has made me very hesitant to want to pick up new games because I hate to invest my time and money into a game where the devs hate me and would see me put in a fucking gulag if they could and what is apolitical or not woke today, won't necessarily be still apolitical or not woke tomorrow.
This is the best course of action. Avoid the RPG industry and make your own games.
I think we have to fight on each site, each forum and keep a torch lit.
I am a refugee from another site. As soon as you start winning an argument, they impose restrictions on the language that you can use. Over an ENWorld, you cannot use the words ideology, political, sjw and many others. This is meant to cripple your ability to debate.
Worse, they further restrict words you use to fairly debate. Recently they banned someone for using the word "cancelled."
Nonetheless, we have to buck up and keep debating. Sucks to be be dogpiled and ultimately banned but sucks worse to hide in a cave and leave others without hope.
We have to encourage others actively and let our logic and reality based arguments shine. And then also regroup and replenish and hang out on sites with actual free speech like this one.
Simultaneously we have to STOP giving them money.
Ultimately it might be phyrric victory anyway at best but I prefer not to go out like a bitch.
We could restrict words too. Like if someone uses the word "Bigot", "racist", "ableist", "[whatever]phobe", in any sort of accusatory way, they could get banned for "inciting hatred" or some such.
I shake my head when I see "stop giving them money" because they don't need money from the people they "hate." OTOH, the people that keep saying this are often the ones that need your money, so the message sounds very self-serving.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 03, 2021, 05:38:48 PM
We could restrict words too. Like if someone uses the word "Bigot", "racist", "ableist", "[whatever]phobe", in any sort of accusatory way, they could get banned for "inciting hatred" or some such.
You don't support free speech by restricting it.
1. Start a private Discord or other site invitation only for people who are not fucking retarded.
2. Choose small sites of SJW activity.
3. Gang rush them repeatedly until they leave or you are banned.
4. If banned, immediately create new account there and get back in the saddle.
5. Lather, rinse, repeat until the dirt is washed away. Make the admins of the site understand that allowing SJW behavior has consequences.
Quote from: Ocule on July 03, 2021, 11:07:15 AM
TL;DR How do we gatekeep the sjws/progressive nonsense without getting instantly yeeted off the internet.
You need to start doing what the comic book creators have done, now that Marvel and DC are in a woke death spiral. They use Indiegogo (not Kickstarter, which is gatekept by the woke) to sell comics and provide customer service. Indiegogo is an online store for products after their fulfillment. SJWs can't cancel anyone because creators there work for themselves. Not for a woke company.
RPG creators that care about quality and care about their customers should be using Indiegogo also. Kickstarter is where all the democrats hang out.
And YouTube is a must, you can't promote your product until you build up a customer base with your channel.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2021, 07:15:35 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 03, 2021, 05:38:48 PM
We could restrict words too. Like if someone uses the word "Bigot", "racist", "ableist", "[whatever]phobe", in any sort of accusatory way, they could get banned for "inciting hatred" or some such.
You don't support free speech by restricting it.
Why not use the weapons and tactics of the enemy against them? No one gives a damn about our free speech.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2021, 07:14:15 PM
I shake my head when I see "stop giving them money" because they don't need money from the people they "hate." OTOH, the people that keep saying this are often the ones that need your money, so the message sounds very self-serving.
I have to question this one too. They do need our money. The SJW's don't buy games. They don't play games. And yet the large gaming companies are kowtowing to them.
Regular people are in the middle, spending their money, watching their favorite games slip closer, and closer into becoming un-fun, marxist propaganda tools. They too will eventurally be alienated, and the game designing dionsaurs will die off, while clever, designers will be able to sell their games to a fun-starved populace.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 03, 2021, 05:38:48 PM
We could restrict words too. Like if someone uses the word "Bigot", "racist", "ableist", "[whatever]phobe", in any sort of accusatory way, they could get banned for "inciting hatred" or some such.
It's literally harassment. Easily worth banning.
If you want to get a little more clever simply say that all religious ideas are welcome, and persecution of others over religious beliefs is unacceptable.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2021, 07:14:15 PM
I shake my head when I see "stop giving them money" because they don't need money from the people they "hate." OTOH, the people that keep saying this are often the ones that need your money, so the message sounds very self-serving.
I think the comic book industry felt this way for a long time. I am not so sure the bean counters in that industry agree with it now.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2021, 07:15:35 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 03, 2021, 05:38:48 PM
We could restrict words too. Like if someone uses the word "Bigot", "racist", "ableist", "[whatever]phobe", in any sort of accusatory way, they could get banned for "inciting hatred" or some such.
You don't support free speech by restricting it.
You won't have free speech if you allow the woke in.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 03, 2021, 08:27:41 PM
The SJW's don't buy games. They don't play games.
I'm not sure where you get this idea from; I have a very woke couple in the extended circle that I game with from time to time. They buy more games than anyone in the group other that myself and one other guy (but he exclusively buys board games). And yes, they play everything that they buy along with whatever the rest of us buy too. Of course, some will say they must not be "True SJWs" if they are buying & playing games, but the headaches that result from having out of game conversations with them tell me otherwise.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 03, 2021, 08:19:19 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2021, 07:15:35 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 03, 2021, 05:38:48 PM
We could restrict words too. Like if someone uses the word "Bigot", "racist", "ableist", "[whatever]phobe", in any sort of accusatory way, they could get banned for "inciting hatred" or some such.
You don't support free speech by restricting it.
Why not use the weapons and tactics of the enemy against them? No one gives a damn about our free speech.
Well, that's one way to destroy your own position without your "enemy" having to do a damn thing. You want to do suicide tactics, that's on you, but that's just stupid in the long run.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 04, 2021, 12:12:29 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2021, 07:15:35 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 03, 2021, 05:38:48 PM
We could restrict words too. Like if someone uses the word "Bigot", "racist", "ableist", "[whatever]phobe", in any sort of accusatory way, they could get banned for "inciting hatred" or some such.
You don't support free speech by restricting it.
You won't have free speech if you allow the woke in.
I know a few rather woke people IRL. They never try to stop me from speaking even when they don't necessarily like what I have to say. Maybe the real answer is that it's best to have face to face conversations rather than social media exchanges because the internet turns people into assholes--both in encouraging them to act that way and increasing the perception of that even when that isn't the intent.
The Liberal woke agenda is Racist and evil. They are literally telling people they are lesser and unworthy because of their skin color. That used to be EVERYONES definition of evil.
I have leftist friends and family that I love and we can have different views and that's fine, having evil views that cause misery and death is not fine and I confront them every single time. For the longest time I didn't want to rock the boat and their ideology while I felt was wrong..it wasn't evil. I didn't want confrontation so I just let it slide.
This just isn't the case anymore and I'm starting to think never was. It's everywhere, it's coming at me from every side. People who I considered good people are saying this most horrible things and I have no choice, I confront those ideas and those I can get to engage with my logically and with emotional maturity I have started to reach. Those that I can't reach have started to cut me off and double down in their insanity.
This is hard. I don't want to do this but if we just ignore it and keep our heads down we know from history what this brings.
Confront ideas and thoughts not people. Those horrible evil ideas could never survive in the light of debate. They never could, it's only in silence and fear that they gain in power. That's why they seek to shut down any debate. They know what it brings.
Quote from: Gameogre on July 04, 2021, 09:26:14 AM
The Liberal woke agenda is Racist and evil. They are literally telling people they are lesser and unworthy because of their skin color. That used to be EVERYONES definition of evil.
I have leftist friends and family that I love and we can have different views and that's fine, having evil views that cause misery and death is not fine and I confront them every single time. For the longest time I didn't want to rock the boat and their ideology while I felt was wrong..it wasn't evil. I didn't want confrontation so I just let it slide.
This just isn't the case anymore and I'm starting to think never was. It's everywhere, it's coming at me from every side. People who I considered good people are saying this most horrible things and I have no choice, I confront those ideas and those I can get to engage with my logically and with emotional maturity I have started to reach. Those that I can't reach have started to cut me off and double down in their insanity.
This is hard. I don't want to do this but if we just ignore it and keep our heads down we know from history what this brings.
Confront ideas and thoughts not people. Those horrible evil ideas could never survive in the light of debate. They never could, it's only in silence and fear that they gain in power. That's why they seek to shut down any debate. They know what it brings.
I think this is it. If enough people stop sticking their heads in the sand, and just simply say "No" to this crap, it will fizzle out. The problem is that requires someone to stand up to their peer group. And that risks alienation. That's rough.
I think the big pushback is a result of the wokesters getting so full of themselves, that even head-in-sand people can't stand it anymore.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 04, 2021, 12:12:29 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2021, 07:15:35 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 03, 2021, 05:38:48 PM
We could restrict words too. Like if someone uses the word "Bigot", "racist", "ableist", "[whatever]phobe", in any sort of accusatory way, they could get banned for "inciting hatred" or some such.
You don't support free speech by restricting it.
You won't have free speech if you allow the woke in.
Sure you will. Just don't give them to power to censor.
Quote from: Pat on July 04, 2021, 11:07:54 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 04, 2021, 12:12:29 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2021, 07:15:35 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 03, 2021, 05:38:48 PM
We could restrict words too. Like if someone uses the word "Bigot", "racist", "ableist", "[whatever]phobe", in any sort of accusatory way, they could get banned for "inciting hatred" or some such.
You don't support free speech by restricting it.
You won't have free speech if you allow the woke in.
Sure you will. Just don't give them to power to censor.
It's not Censorship. It's Consequences. [/s]
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 04, 2021, 07:09:58 AM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 03, 2021, 08:27:41 PM
The SJW's don't buy games. They don't play games.
I'm not sure where you get this idea from; I have a very woke couple in the extended circle that I game with from time to time. They buy more games than anyone in the group other that myself and one other guy (but he exclusively buys board games). And yes, they play everything that they buy along with whatever the rest of us buy too. Of course, some will say they must not be "True SJWs" if they are buying & playing games, but the headaches that result from having out of game conversations with them tell me otherwise.
This is the real question: how much of the market does woke account for in terms of purchases regardless of number of people.
For example, I was buying "a lot" and completely stopped due to sjw nonsense a while back. Some people buy e phb and move on. Clearly I count as more than one of them in terms of revenue.
Your anecdotal point is well taken: do sjw folks actually comprise a lot of the market? I don't have data. Let's go with Pundit and others and assume this shit is noxious to most people, more than 50%.
Most folks are nonetheless just going with the flow anyway and buying it while holding their nose if these assumptions are true. Those are the people who need to be reached and brought on board with boycotting bullshit. That's the me of yesterday judging from my bookshelf.
There are not enough committed anti-sjw folks to make a big enough market difference is my guess unless more of us are whales in terms of purchasing power or allocated purchasing power.
As such, voting with wallet is likely to be insufficient. Same people also have to win the war of ideas and spread the word moving forward.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 04, 2021, 12:12:29 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2021, 07:15:35 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 03, 2021, 05:38:48 PM
We could restrict words too. Like if someone uses the word "Bigot", "racist", "ableist", "[whatever]phobe", in any sort of accusatory way, they could get banned for "inciting hatred" or some such.
You don't support free speech by restricting it.
You won't have free speech if you allow the woke in.
If you ban any using the word "bigot" then that isn't free speech. On the other hand, as I said, in the current environment, I don't think that MAGA-hat-wearer gamers and BLM-shirt-wearing gamers will be able to game together in peace. Thus, I think allowing full free speech isn't compatible with a focus on fun, non-political gaming together.
You can either have a free-for-all convention space that could be disrupted by political arguments and confrontations, or you can have a moderated convention space that focuses on gaming.
IMO, the latter is fine. A game convention isn't a public forum. Organizers can and should ban people for saying things that are legal speech, but disruptive to the gaming environment.
Quote from: jhkim on July 04, 2021, 11:42:14 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 04, 2021, 12:12:29 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2021, 07:15:35 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 03, 2021, 05:38:48 PM
We could restrict words too. Like if someone uses the word "Bigot", "racist", "ableist", "[whatever]phobe", in any sort of accusatory way, they could get banned for "inciting hatred" or some such.
You don't support free speech by restricting it.
You won't have free speech if you allow the woke in.
If you ban any using the word "bigot" then that isn't free speech. On the other hand, as I said, in the current environment, I don't think that MAGA-hat-wearer gamers and BLM-shirt-wearing gamers will be able to game together in peace. Thus, I think allowing full free speech isn't compatible with a focus on fun, non-political gaming together.
You can either have a free-for-all convention space that could be disrupted by political arguments and confrontations, or you can have a moderated convention space that focuses on gaming.
IMO, the latter is fine. A game convention isn't a public forum. Organizers can and should ban people for saying things that are legal speech, but disruptive to the gaming environment.
I agree with this in theory, However in practice it means you will keep your mouth shut when people espouse the wonders of the BLM organization and movement, and be promptly banned for saying there are gamers out there who have no interest in gender identity issues. So it is not in any way moderated in a centrist way.
Quote from: oggsmash on July 04, 2021, 11:48:33 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 04, 2021, 11:42:14 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 04, 2021, 12:12:29 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2021, 07:15:35 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 03, 2021, 05:38:48 PM
We could restrict words too. Like if someone uses the word "Bigot", "racist", "ableist", "[whatever]phobe", in any sort of accusatory way, they could get banned for "inciting hatred" or some such.
You don't support free speech by restricting it.
You won't have free speech if you allow the woke in.
If you ban any using the word "bigot" then that isn't free speech. On the other hand, as I said, in the current environment, I don't think that MAGA-hat-wearer gamers and BLM-shirt-wearing gamers will be able to game together in peace. Thus, I think allowing full free speech isn't compatible with a focus on fun, non-political gaming together.
You can either have a free-for-all convention space that could be disrupted by political arguments and confrontations, or you can have a moderated convention space that focuses on gaming.
IMO, the latter is fine. A game convention isn't a public forum. Organizers can and should ban people for saying things that are legal speech, but disruptive to the gaming environment.
I agree with this in theory, However in practice it means you will keep your mouth shut when people espouse the wonders of the BLM organization and movement, and be promptly banned for saying there are gamers out there who have no interest in gender identity issues. So it is not in any way moderated in a centrist way.
That's the trick, ain't it? A few vocal assholes make things political, and then you either have to let them walk all over everyone else, or push back and get accused of "making things political".
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 04, 2021, 12:30:56 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on July 04, 2021, 11:48:33 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 04, 2021, 11:42:14 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 04, 2021, 12:12:29 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2021, 07:15:35 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 03, 2021, 05:38:48 PM
We could restrict words too. Like if someone uses the word "Bigot", "racist", "ableist", "[whatever]phobe", in any sort of accusatory way, they could get banned for "inciting hatred" or some such.
You don't support free speech by restricting it.
You won't have free speech if you allow the woke in.
If you ban any using the word "bigot" then that isn't free speech. On the other hand, as I said, in the current environment, I don't think that MAGA-hat-wearer gamers and BLM-shirt-wearing gamers will be able to game together in peace. Thus, I think allowing full free speech isn't compatible with a focus on fun, non-political gaming together.
You can either have a free-for-all convention space that could be disrupted by political arguments and confrontations, or you can have a moderated convention space that focuses on gaming.
IMO, the latter is fine. A game convention isn't a public forum. Organizers can and should ban people for saying things that are legal speech, but disruptive to the gaming environment.
I agree with this in theory, However in practice it means you will keep your mouth shut when people espouse the wonders of the BLM organization and movement, and be promptly banned for saying there are gamers out there who have no interest in gender identity issues. So it is not in any way moderated in a centrist way.
That's the trick, ain't it? A few vocal assholes make things political, and then you either have to let them walk all over everyone else, or push back and get accused of "making things political".
Yeah, and the same people saying such a thing and feeling a moderated, private Con is ok with doing some things they think will keep the peace; likely shit a brick if a baker doesnt want to bake a cake for a gay wedding because he is christian.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on July 03, 2021, 03:55:09 PMWe need to completely reject the idea that RPGs should be judge on such criteria. That is the only way out of this mess.
Yes. The reason why SJWs loose every battle but win the war, is because their nonsense true-isms have been brainwashed into public belief by repitition.
Quote from: oggsmash on July 04, 2021, 11:48:33 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 04, 2021, 11:42:14 AM
If you ban any using the word "bigot" then that isn't free speech. On the other hand, as I said, in the current environment, I don't think that MAGA-hat-wearer gamers and BLM-shirt-wearing gamers will be able to game together in peace. Thus, I think allowing full free speech isn't compatible with a focus on fun, non-political gaming together.
You can either have a free-for-all convention space that could be disrupted by political arguments and confrontations, or you can have a moderated convention space that focuses on gaming.
IMO, the latter is fine. A game convention isn't a public forum. Organizers can and should ban people for saying things that are legal speech, but disruptive to the gaming environment.
I agree with this in theory, However in practice it means you will keep your mouth shut when people espouse the wonders of the BLM organization and movement, and be promptly banned for saying there are gamers out there who have no interest in gender identity issues. So it is not in any way moderated in a centrist way.
Is that true of local conventions in conservative areas? I'm in the SF Bay Area, and that's a fair cop here -- but I would think it depends who is moderating it. I don't have a problem with any of centrist or left-leaning or right-leaning moderation, but centrist isn't the same as free-for-all. It would still be effectively banning people outside the mainstream as disruptive. It means that people with radical views need to keep their mouths shut and not speak up about the centrist stuff being expressed.
Quote from: oggsmash on July 04, 2021, 12:34:42 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 04, 2021, 12:30:56 PM
That's the trick, ain't it? A few vocal assholes make things political, and then you either have to let them walk all over everyone else, or push back and get accused of "making things political".
Yeah, and the same people saying such a thing and feeling a moderated, private Con is ok with doing some things they think will keep the peace; likely shit a brick if a baker doesnt want to bake a cake for a gay wedding because he is christian.
Everyone has their differing lines about what is the line between acceptable discrimination, and unacceptable discrimination. Some of this will depend on the venue, and some will be on what is being discriminated on.
To keep this on gaming: For me, a private game is absolutely in their rights to ban from someone from joining if they are gay -- but I don't think it would be acceptable for a typical game store to ban customers for being gay. A game convention is somewhere in between. I don't know what the equivalent would be: A Christian GM who doesn't allow gay players or perhaps gay characters in their game?
Quote from: jhkim on July 04, 2021, 04:45:56 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on July 04, 2021, 11:48:33 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 04, 2021, 11:42:14 AM
If you ban any using the word "bigot" then that isn't free speech. On the other hand, as I said, in the current environment, I don't think that MAGA-hat-wearer gamers and BLM-shirt-wearing gamers will be able to game together in peace. Thus, I think allowing full free speech isn't compatible with a focus on fun, non-political gaming together.
You can either have a free-for-all convention space that could be disrupted by political arguments and confrontations, or you can have a moderated convention space that focuses on gaming.
IMO, the latter is fine. A game convention isn't a public forum. Organizers can and should ban people for saying things that are legal speech, but disruptive to the gaming environment.
I agree with this in theory, However in practice it means you will keep your mouth shut when people espouse the wonders of the BLM organization and movement, and be promptly banned for saying there are gamers out there who have no interest in gender identity issues. So it is not in any way moderated in a centrist way.
Is that true of local conventions in conservative areas? I'm in the SF Bay Area, and that's a fair cop here -- but I would think it depends who is moderating it. I don't have a problem with any of centrist or left-leaning or right-leaning moderation, but centrist isn't the same as free-for-all. It would still be effectively banning people outside the mainstream as disruptive. It means that people with radical views need to keep their mouths shut and not speak up about the centrist stuff being expressed.
Quote from: oggsmash on July 04, 2021, 12:34:42 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 04, 2021, 12:30:56 PM
That's the trick, ain't it? A few vocal assholes make things political, and then you either have to let them walk all over everyone else, or push back and get accused of "making things political".
Yeah, and the same people saying such a thing and feeling a moderated, private Con is ok with doing some things they think will keep the peace; likely shit a brick if a baker doesnt want to bake a cake for a gay wedding because he is christian.
Everyone has their differing lines about what is the line between acceptable discrimination, and unacceptable discrimination. Some of this will depend on the venue, and some will be on what is being discriminated on.
To keep this on gaming: For me, a private game is absolutely in their rights to ban from someone from joining if they are gay -- but I don't think it would be acceptable for a typical game store to ban customers for being gay. A game convention is somewhere in between. I don't know what the equivalent would be: A Christian GM who doesn't allow gay players or perhaps gay characters in their game?
Nobody is talking about banning people for being gay, and you know it. Minus 5 points from House Jhkim.
Quote from: jhkim on July 04, 2021, 04:45:56 PM
To keep this on gaming: For me, a private game isis absolutely in their rights to ban from someone from joining if they are gay -- but I don't think it would be acceptable for a typical game store to ban customers for being gay. A game convention is somewhere in between. I don't know what the equivalent would be: A Christian GM who doesn't allow gay players or perhaps gay characters in their game?
WTF?
You proclaim that you want to keep this on gaming and then try to turn it into a discussion on whether or not homophobia is acceptable? Did you include this just to get your daily quota of Christian bashing in?
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 04, 2021, 05:29:51 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 04, 2021, 04:45:56 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on July 04, 2021, 12:34:42 PM
Yeah, and the same people saying such a thing and feeling a moderated, private Con is ok with doing some things they think will keep the peace; likely shit a brick if a baker doesnt want to bake a cake for a gay wedding because he is christian.
Everyone has their differing lines about what is the line between acceptable discrimination, and unacceptable discrimination. Some of this will depend on the venue, and some will be on what is being discriminated on.
To keep this on gaming: For me, a private game is absolutely in their rights to ban from someone from joining if they are gay -- but I don't think it would be acceptable for a typical game store to ban customers for being gay. A game convention is somewhere in between. I don't know what the equivalent would be: A Christian GM who doesn't allow gay players or perhaps gay characters in their game?
Nobody is talking about banning people for being gay, and you know it. Minus 5 points from House Jhkim.
Nobody was talking about fucking wedding cakes either, but somehow you didn't object to oggsmash bringing those up to score points.
Here's the question -- let's compare a liberal-dominated convention like Big Bad Con in Oakland, and a hypothetical conservative-dominated convention. How would these be different in practice either for
(1) a married gay couple,
and
(2) a conservative Christian couple who are vocally opposed to gay marriage
I don't think there's a practical way to make both of these demographics happy at the convention. If the conservative Christian players have to play with a bunch of gay players, I don't think they'll be happy - and conversely, if the gay players have to play with a bunch of conservative Christians, I don't think they'll be happy.
Quote from: jhkim on July 04, 2021, 06:39:14 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 04, 2021, 05:29:51 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 04, 2021, 04:45:56 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on July 04, 2021, 12:34:42 PM
Yeah, and the same people saying such a thing and feeling a moderated, private Con is ok with doing some things they think will keep the peace; likely shit a brick if a baker doesnt want to bake a cake for a gay wedding because he is christian.
Everyone has their differing lines about what is the line between acceptable discrimination, and unacceptable discrimination. Some of this will depend on the venue, and some will be on what is being discriminated on.
To keep this on gaming: For me, a private game is absolutely in their rights to ban from someone from joining if they are gay -- but I don't think it would be acceptable for a typical game store to ban customers for being gay. A game convention is somewhere in between. I don't know what the equivalent would be: A Christian GM who doesn't allow gay players or perhaps gay characters in their game?
Nobody is talking about banning people for being gay, and you know it. Minus 5 points from House Jhkim.
Nobody was talking about fucking wedding cakes either, but somehow you didn't object to oggsmash bringing those up to score points.
1. That doesn't make what you typed any better.
2. To be quite honest, I'm still having trouble parsing what oggsmash typed. That's why I haven't replied. At best/worst, the comparison is so tenuous that it's not applicable. That's a far cry from insinuating that the contention of the thread is directly related to banning gay people from conventions.
QuoteHere's the question -- let's compare a liberal-dominated convention like Big Bad Con in Oakland, and a hypothetical conservative-dominated convention. How would these be different in practice either for
(1) a married gay couple,
and
(2) a conservative Christian couple who are vocally opposed to gay marriage
I don't think there's a practical way to make both of these demographics happy at the convention. If the conservative Christian players have to play with a bunch of gay players, I don't think they'll be happy - and conversely, if the gay players have to play with a bunch of conservative Christians, I don't think they'll be happy.
It's anecdotal, so take it with a grain of salt, but most conservative religious people I've heard talk about this kind of issue don't have a problem with associating with gay people.
What about gay conservatives? Or liberals who hate gays? I think being gay is not relevant, and I will criticize oggsmash in that bringing up the gay wedding cake topic has apparently opened the door to you attempting to take us on an irrelevant tangent.
Quote from: jhkim on July 04, 2021, 06:39:14 PM
I don't think there's a practical way to make both of these demographics happy at the convention. If the conservative Christian players have to play with a bunch of gay players, I don't think they'll be happy - and conversely, if the gay players have to play with a bunch of conservative Christians, I don't think they'll be happy.
Why do you think that?
Quote from: jhkim on July 04, 2021, 06:39:14 PMI don't think there's a practical way to make both of these demographics happy at the convention. If the conservative Christian players have to play with a bunch of gay players, I don't think they'll be happy - and conversely, if the gay players have to play with a bunch of conservative Christians, I don't think they'll be happy.
Depends on the sort and the principles. If the conservative christians are very by the book and can't even handle stuff like imaginary pantheons, then its unlikely they will be happy in the convention at all.
If the gay group demands that everything cater to their fetish and get upset when people disagree they will also be unlikely to be happy in the convention at all.
But if both sides have some decency to indulge some level of imagination and leave politics away, if for a while, then they can get along. Both sides can get along if they WANT to get along fundementally.
SJW principles is to NOT get along. Anything short of utopian dominance of their ideals, and their ideals alone, is blasthemous.
Can christians have the same issue? Yes. But they have lost a ton of influence and its the SJWs leading the charge in almost every institution.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 04, 2021, 07:00:15 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 04, 2021, 06:39:14 PMI don't think there's a practical way to make both of these demographics happy at the convention. If the conservative Christian players have to play with a bunch of gay players, I don't think they'll be happy - and conversely, if the gay players have to play with a bunch of conservative Christians, I don't think they'll be happy.
Depends on the sort and the principles. If the conservative christians are very by the book and can't even handle stuff like imaginary pantheons, then its unlikely they will be happy in the convention at all.
If the gay group demands that everything cater to their fetish and get upset when people disagree they will also be unlikely to be happy in the convention at all.
But if both sides have some decency to indulge some level of imagination and leave politics away, if for a while, then they can get along. Both sides can get along if they WANT to get along fundementally.
SJW principles is to NOT get along. Anything short of utopian dominance of their ideals, and their ideals alone, is blasthemous.
Can christians have the same issue? Yes. But they have lost a ton of influence and its the SJWs leading the charge in almost every institution.
At this point in the conversation, I think my concern is
activism. I'd be equally put off if somebody came in and wanted to make the convetnion about LGBTQ issues, or how demons in D&D make the game satanic, or a guy with a boot on his head wanted to use the convention to talk about libertarian values.
Some minor creep is inevitable when a GM puts their spin on an adventure about gay dragons. (I'd probably just laugh at that idea) but I can just walk away from a game I think is getting preachy. But when the convention itself fosters an environment of evangelizing about out of game topics, that's when I get irate.
Before selling any ticket/badge for the con, you have the prospect buyer fill out a form/questionaire:
Sex?
Can you get along with those that think different than you?
Is ANTIFA a terrorist organization? Yes or no.
Please tell us something about you.
Maybe the last question alone could be enough, after all the wokeraty will put their pronouns.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 04, 2021, 07:08:50 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 04, 2021, 07:00:15 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 04, 2021, 06:39:14 PMI don't think there's a practical way to make both of these demographics happy at the convention. If the conservative Christian players have to play with a bunch of gay players, I don't think they'll be happy - and conversely, if the gay players have to play with a bunch of conservative Christians, I don't think they'll be happy.
Depends on the sort and the principles. If the conservative christians are very by the book and can't even handle stuff like imaginary pantheons, then its unlikely they will be happy in the convention at all.
If the gay group demands that everything cater to their fetish and get upset when people disagree they will also be unlikely to be happy in the convention at all.
But if both sides have some decency to indulge some level of imagination and leave politics away, if for a while, then they can get along. Both sides can get along if they WANT to get along fundementally.
SJW principles is to NOT get along. Anything short of utopian dominance of their ideals, and their ideals alone, is blasthemous.
Can christians have the same issue? Yes. But they have lost a ton of influence and its the SJWs leading the charge in almost every institution.
At this point in the conversation, I think my concern is activism. I'd be equally put off if somebody came in and wanted to make the convetnion about LGBTQ issues, or how demons in D&D make the game satanic, or a guy with a boot on his head wanted to use the convention to talk about libertarian values.
Some minor creep is inevitable when a GM puts their spin on an adventure about gay dragons. (I'd probably just laugh at that idea) but I can just walk away from a game I think is getting preachy. But when the convention itself fosters an environment of evangelizing about out of game topics, that's when I get irate.
You got it.
When I help people in my job, I help them. That I am a straight Ostensibly Christian dude is immaterial. I help everyone.
When I play D&D or whatever, I play. I don't tell others how to feel, correct them suppress them or whatever.
In some magical world, people come together for common purpose and leave each other alone otherwise.
If I am on a diet, I watch what I eat; I don't police everyone else. My buddy can eat a 3000 calorie meal. As long as he does not hassle me about my salad, we can have dinner together. That's the same with rpg or other games for me. Shut up an play. It's the reason we are hanging out.
Once he starts bitching me out for eating meat, having a beer with my dinner or whatever, we got a problem. We have lost sanity when we think it is our responsibility to live others lives. A convention. Does not have to be so dissimilar. Leave me alone. I am playing colonialist (if you say so) classic D&D and you are playing thirsty sword plungers. Me joining the sword swallowers and complaining I don't like that is absurd.
Sjw gotta understand my character is developing a stronghold. Don't participate if you don't like it. Other events can cater to your preferences
GCNCoC (Gaming Conventions No Code Of Conduct)
Gaming Conventions No Code Of Conduct is a groundbreaking new idea. Designed to help you find communities and conventions that will not get stuck endlessly debating how atendees should behave in their events, only to be found to never be fully resolved to anyone's liking.
What if... we all agreed?
1. We are all adults. Capable of having adult discussions.
2. We don't accept politics at the table/event/convention/store, we don't care if you're liberal or conservative, black or white, straight or gay, or
anything in between! In fact, we won't bring it up, or ask. We simply do not care.
3. Nothing else matters!
Quote from: jhkim on July 04, 2021, 06:39:14 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 04, 2021, 05:29:51 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 04, 2021, 04:45:56 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on July 04, 2021, 12:34:42 PM
Yeah, and the same people saying such a thing and feeling a moderated, private Con is ok with doing some things they think will keep the peace; likely shit a brick if a baker doesnt want to bake a cake for a gay wedding because he is christian.
Everyone has their differing lines about what is the line between acceptable discrimination, and unacceptable discrimination. Some of this will depend on the venue, and some will be on what is being discriminated on.
To keep this on gaming: For me, a private game is absolutely in their rights to ban from someone from joining if they are gay -- but I don't think it would be acceptable for a typical game store to ban customers for being gay. A game convention is somewhere in between. I don't know what the equivalent would be: A Christian GM who doesn't allow gay players or perhaps gay characters in their game?
Nobody is talking about banning people for being gay, and you know it. Minus 5 points from House Jhkim.
Nobody was talking about fucking wedding cakes either, but somehow you didn't object to oggsmash bringing those up to score points.
Here's the question -- let's compare a liberal-dominated convention like Big Bad Con in Oakland, and a hypothetical conservative-dominated convention. How would these be different in practice either for
(1) a married gay couple,
and
(2) a conservative Christian couple who are vocally opposed to gay marriage
I don't think there's a practical way to make both of these demographics happy at the convention. If the conservative Christian players have to play with a bunch of gay players, I don't think they'll be happy - and conversely, if the gay players have to play with a bunch of conservative Christians, I don't think they'll be happy.
That just proves you don't have a clue what you are talking about. YOU and people like you are the only ones who care about someone's sexuality at the game table. I'm about as Christian as you can get and not be a Preacher and I have people of all sexualities at my tables. I'm playing D&D, I care how fun you are to game with and don't give a rats ass about anything else. Now I have friends and table top mats I play with and not one of them has ever seemed unhappy about it. How is some stranger im just sitting down to play D&D with supposed to know im a Christian anyway? Or how do I know their sexuality?? This is all hogwash used to disguise your own crazy bias!
Quote from: Gameogre on July 04, 2021, 10:37:12 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 04, 2021, 06:39:14 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 04, 2021, 05:29:51 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 04, 2021, 04:45:56 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on July 04, 2021, 12:34:42 PM
Yeah, and the same people saying such a thing and feeling a moderated, private Con is ok with doing some things they think will keep the peace; likely shit a brick if a baker doesnt want to bake a cake for a gay wedding because he is christian.
Everyone has their differing lines about what is the line between acceptable discrimination, and unacceptable discrimination. Some of this will depend on the venue, and some will be on what is being discriminated on.
To keep this on gaming: For me, a private game is absolutely in their rights to ban from someone from joining if they are gay -- but I don't think it would be acceptable for a typical game store to ban customers for being gay. A game convention is somewhere in between. I don't know what the equivalent would be: A Christian GM who doesn't allow gay players or perhaps gay characters in their game?
Nobody is talking about banning people for being gay, and you know it. Minus 5 points from House Jhkim.
Nobody was talking about fucking wedding cakes either, but somehow you didn't object to oggsmash bringing those up to score points.
Here's the question -- let's compare a liberal-dominated convention like Big Bad Con in Oakland, and a hypothetical conservative-dominated convention. How would these be different in practice either for
(1) a married gay couple,
and
(2) a conservative Christian couple who are vocally opposed to gay marriage
I don't think there's a practical way to make both of these demographics happy at the convention. If the conservative Christian players have to play with a bunch of gay players, I don't think they'll be happy - and conversely, if the gay players have to play with a bunch of conservative Christians, I don't think they'll be happy.
That just proves you don't have a clue what you are talking about. YOU and people like you are the only ones who care about someone's sexuality at the game table. I'm about as Christian as you can get and not be a Preacher and I have people of all sexualities at my tables. I'm playing D&D, I care how fun you are to game with and don't give a rats ass about anything else. Now I have friends and table top mats I play with and not one of them has ever seemed unhappy about it. How is some stranger im just sitting down to play D&D with supposed to know im a Christian anyway? Or how do I know their sexuality?? This is all hogwash used to disguise your own crazy bias!
Gameogre gets it.
WOTC D&D is CCP-CRT-D&D
Quote from: jhkim on July 04, 2021, 06:39:14 PM
(1) a married gay couple,
and
(2) a conservative Christian couple who are vocally opposed to gay marriage
I don't think there's a practical way to make both of these demographics happy at the convention.
They could all shut up about gay marriage stuff and play D&D together? IME in real life that is what actually happens!!! :-O
Quote from: S'mon on July 05, 2021, 11:04:15 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 04, 2021, 06:39:14 PM
(1) a married gay couple,
and
(2) a conservative Christian couple who are vocally opposed to gay marriage
I don't think there's a practical way to make both of these demographics happy at the convention.
They could all shut up about gay marriage stuff and play D&D together? IME in real life that is what actually happens!!! :-O
Pretty much. I count half-a-dozen gays among my various game groups with no problems despite my being well known among my friends as "Captain Catholic" because I actually live my faith, but part of that Faith is "always preach the Gospel; if necessary use words", "Love the Sinner; Hate the Sin" and "we're ALL sinners so don't go picking at someone else's splinters until you've pulled the beam from your own eye."
Frankly, any good Christian knows they'll never convert anyone if they're getting in other people's faces (in my experience those who do are more often self-righteous rather righteous), but I've gotten five members of my gaming circle and their families to join my Church expressly by NOT pushing so they felt safe coming to me when they did have questions.
As long as they're not asking me to bow in obeisance to their lifestyle and don't raise a stink about me silently praying before I eat or not eating meat on Fridays or not being free to game on Sunday mornings and Holy Days of Obligation, I'll game with anyone and I suspect the vast majority of Christians will too.
Playing devils advocate: There are intolerant christians as much as there are intolerant people of every category.
But again, if you want to have fun as a group in a imaginary world, if thats what everybody wants in good faith, the game will happen.
I have a largely SJW girl in my group. I find her politics utterly idiotic , but shes a good gamer, and shes been a reliable player in my games and I value her as a player and she values my game.
I believe promotion of GOOD FAITH arguments is critical to difusion of tensions, moreso then censorship of opinions. The reason why so much SJW stuff has cultural power is that it rides on some level of censorship coming from the 'family values/religous' right of the 70s-90s.
Oposition to the SJW game has to really up their optics game, and reject the baseline SJW principles of virtue as they are just downright incompatible with anything but themselves.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 05, 2021, 12:23:13 PM
Quote from: S'mon on July 05, 2021, 11:04:15 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 04, 2021, 06:39:14 PM
(1) a married gay couple,
and
(2) a conservative Christian couple who are vocally opposed to gay marriage
I don't think there's a practical way to make both of these demographics happy at the convention.
They could all shut up about gay marriage stuff and play D&D together? IME in real life that is what actually happens!!! :-O
Pretty much. I count half-a-dozen gays among my various game groups with no problems despite my being well known among my friends as "Captain Catholic" because I actually live my faith, but part of that Faith is "always preach the Gospel; if necessary use words", "Love the Sinner; Hate the Sin" and "we're ALL sinners so don't go picking at someone else's splinters until you've pulled the beam from your own eye."
Frankly, any good Christian knows they'll never convert anyone if they're getting in other people's faces (in my experience those who do are more often self-righteous rather righteous), but I've gotten five members of my gaming circle and their families to join my Church expressly by NOT pushing so they felt safe coming to me when they did have questions.
As long as they're not asking me to bow in obeisance to their lifestyle and don't raise a stink about me silently praying before I eat or not eating meat on Fridays or not being free to game on Sunday mornings and Holy Days of Obligation, I'll game with anyone and I suspect the vast majority of Christians will too.
"we're ALL sinners so don't go picking at someone else's splinters until you've pulled the beam from your own eye." THIS IS HUGE! Speaking as a Christian if I hear another Christian screaming about someone else sin I do a double take and see who it is that's yelling because 9/10 if your over reacting to someone else issues your trying to draw someone's attention(prob yourself) away from your own.
It's hard enough struggling to keep your own soul from nose diving, Ain't got the time or energy to worry about everyone else as well. You do you and if you fuck up that's between you and god.
Sorry lol back to your regularly non-faith posting 8)
I mean the issue hasn't ever really been whether or not to include gays or whatever in the game but finding yourself on the outside of the new gatekeepers because you're the wrong color, political persuasion or just don't want to be preached at. I mean how many times do we need to reform our groups and communities? We get chased out like stray dogs make a new community just to have the same shit happen again in the new community. I found savage worlds after swearing off wotc, and paizo both, now they look like they could go either way. Especially after watching how quick new tsr got yeeted, I'd be surprised if dtrpg didn't somehow retaliate as well against their products.
Back to the subject of stopping D&D SJWs, here is my personal strategy:
1. Call them out for hypocrisy, and double standards whenever possible.
2. When they claim X (for example Ernie Gygax is transphobic because of recent statements) wake them PROVE it. Ask for quotes, demand proof. Sure they will just ban you or block you, and accuse you of being a "ist" but that's only because they lost the argument, and deep down probably know it.
3. Refuse to buy material from companies who cow tow to woke agenda. This includes attending conventions. Write the company expressing your displeasure and let them know you will not only never buy another product from them until they become politically neutral, but you will publicly encourage others to as well.
4. (or maybe 3b?) Box up all your material from said company and RETURN it with your letter of admonishment. This is putting your money where your mouth is. Sure, they got your cash, but returning your PHB and DMG shows you aren't playing around. If they get thousands of books returned, it will send a stronger message than just a terse email.
5. Buy from companies who refuse to play the woke game. RPG Pundent, Venger Satanis are just 2 of many designers/publishers who are either right leaning, or neutral that produce quality products.
Quote from: Godsmonkey on July 05, 2021, 01:52:58 PM
Back to the subject of stopping D&D SJWs, here is my personal strategy:
1. Call them out for hypocrisy, and double standards whenever possible.
2. When they claim X (for example Ernie Gygax is transphobic because of recent statements) wake them PROVE it. Ask for quotes, demand proof. Sure they will just ban you or block you, and accuse you of being a "ist" but that's only because they lost the argument, and deep down probably know it.
3. Refuse to buy material from companies who cow tow to woke agenda. This includes attending conventions. Write the company expressing your displeasure and let them know you will not only never buy another product from them until they become politically neutral, but you will publicly encourage others to as well.
4. (or maybe 3b?) Box up all your material from said company and RETURN it with your letter of admonishment. This is putting your money where your mouth is. Sure, they got your cash, but returning your PHB and DMG shows you aren't playing around. If they get thousands of books returned, it will send a stronger message than just a terse email.
5. Buy from companies who refuse to play the woke game. RPG Pundent, Venger Satanis are just 2 of many designers/publishers who are either right leaning, or neutral that produce quality products.
The mistake you make is thinking they have a conscience. Hypocrisy isn't a bug in their ideology, its a FEATURE. They are the Anointed so they don't have to abide by the same standards as the "Oppressors." Their proof that Gygax is a monster who needs to die is that someone else on Twitter said he was; no further proof needed.
The woke are literally... as in by the book definition of the term... INSANE. Their beliefs are not rooted in reality and are so sheltered from reality that I read earlier today that a group of Antifa snowflakes decided to pick a fight with an MS-13 gang member in LA because they weren't acknowledging their gender identities or some SJW poppycock. When you think its a good idea to attack a member of a gang known for hunting their enemies down and leaving their heads on fence posts as an example then you have the self-preservation instincts of a rock and should be in an asylum as a danger to yourself and others.
There is no point in engaging with the SJWs when they attack someone in gaming. They won't change their minds. They won't wake up to how hateful and destructive they're being. The ONLY thing to do is tell them to fuck off and, if the target actually has a decent product, support them by buying it.
Quote from: Gameogre on July 04, 2021, 10:37:12 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 04, 2021, 06:39:14 PM
Here's the question -- let's compare a liberal-dominated convention like Big Bad Con in Oakland, and a hypothetical conservative-dominated convention. How would these be different in practice either for
(1) a married gay couple,
and
(2) a conservative Christian couple who are vocally opposed to gay marriage
I don't think there's a practical way to make both of these demographics happy at the convention. If the conservative Christian players have to play with a bunch of gay players, I don't think they'll be happy - and conversely, if the gay players have to play with a bunch of conservative Christians, I don't think they'll be happy.
That just proves you don't have a clue what you are talking about. YOU and people like you are the only ones who care about someone's sexuality at the game table. I'm about as Christian as you can get and not be a Preacher and I have people of all sexualities at my tables. I'm playing D&D, I care how fun you are to game with and don't give a rats ass about anything else. Now I have friends and table top mats I play with and not one of them has ever seemed unhappy about it. How is some stranger im just sitting down to play D&D with supposed to know im a Christian anyway? Or how do I know their sexuality?? This is all hogwash used to disguise your own crazy bias!
Gameogre - you're speaking as if I'm talking about all Christians, when I specified a couple
"who are vocally opposed to gay marriage" - which is the important part about that. It sounds to me like you are not vocally opposed to gay marriage. I can't tell if you privately oppose gay marriage, but even if so, it doesn't sound like you're vocal about it.
Personally, I am a Christian who is supportive of gay marriage. I was raised in a Presbyterian church, and the way I first learned about gay people as a kid was when a gay couple brought their adopted baby in for baptism - and our congregation pledged its support as we do with all baptisms. My congregations have always been pro-gay-marriage. My current church is UU (uufrc.org), and I've been acting as worship associate regularly for the past year. I don't think there is anything inherent in Christianity that opposes gay marriage or other LGBT acceptance.
As far as knowing the couple's sexuality -- normally when I play with a married couple, it is clear that they are a couple. They'll typically include that with introductions - like "Hi, I'm Renee and this is my husband Daniel." Even if they don't explicitly say it, it is generally clear from body language and verbal cues. The same is true of other close relations - like if I play in a game with my son, we'll typically mention this in introductions, and/or people will comment on our similarity. I would consider it odd if I *didn't* know that two people I was playing with were married.
I don't know the view of people who are vocally opposed to gay marriage. However, I play with plenty of gay and queer gamers. In my experience, most don't like associating socially with people who are opposed to gay marriage.
Quote from: jhkim on July 05, 2021, 02:58:28 PM
Gameogre - you're speaking as if I'm talking about all Christians, when I specified a couple "who are vocally opposed to gay marriage" - which is the important part about that. It sounds to me like you are not vocally opposed to gay marriage. I can't tell if you privately oppose gay marriage, but even if so, it doesn't sound like you're vocal about it.
You bring up a type of "conservative" Christian rare enough to qualify as a fucking unicorn (i.e. the kind the Left can't shut up about, like that group of religious nuts who protest military funerals and have a total nationwide membership of less than 30 people; or 0.00001% of the population) while implying there's enough of them to present an actual problem.
Frankly, the answer is; eject whoever can't stop obsessing about people's genitalia and/or engages in PDA's at tables surrounded by complete strangers regardless of gender as disruptive of others' fun. If they can't let it rest or keep their hands to themselves for a four hour game slot they aren't really there to game anyway.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 05, 2021, 02:44:30 PM
The mistake you make is thinking they have a conscience. Hypocrisy isn't a bug in their ideology, its a FEATURE. They are the Anointed so they don't have to abide by the same standards as the "Oppressors." Their proof that Gygax is a monster who needs to die is that someone else on Twitter said he was; no further proof needed.
I concur with Chris24601's thoughts on SJWs and would expand even further. They do not even acknowledge their hypocrisy. You have to read Herbert Marcuse's "Repressive Tolerance" to understand the full depth of their ideology. I've blogged about it extensively elsewhere with point by point elaborations; here, let's just summarize the doctrine of repressive tolerance in plain English:
1. Tolerance is only to be extended to truth.
2. Only leftism is objectively true, and anything other than leftism is not.
3. Therefore tolerance is only to be extended to leftism.
4. Anyone who disagrees with this has been indoctrinated by the right wing. To the extent that the majority of people disagree, that means the majority of people are indoctrinated.
5. Since most people are indoctrinated, leftists must break the indoctrination so that they can grasp the truth of leftism.
6. To break the indoctrination, leftists must promote left-wing thought and suppress right-wing thought.
7. Promoting left-wing thought is accomplished by changing "established universes of meaning" and actively presenting "information slanted in the opposite direction," e.g. by political correctness and propaganda.
8. Suppressing right-wing thought is accomplished by withdrawing the freedom of speech, press, and assembly for anyone who disagrees with leftists on race, gender, religion, armament, public services, social security, or healthcare, e.g. deplatforming us entirely.
9. If necessary to withdraw these freedoms, leftists must operate at such scale that the actions cease to be non-violent and become revolutionary violence.
10. Leftists who use revolutionary violence are not to be condemned by any leftists.
I could, if you want, back up each and every bullet point above with paragraph-length quotes by Herbert Marcuse and other New Leftists; but it's painful to read. In brief, the doctrine holds that left-wing speech, assembly and action must be praised and promoted; while right-wing speech, assembly, and action must be condemned, suppressed, and punished. It's not hypocrisy when they do that. It's their stated manifesto, with an elaborate ideological edifice to justify it.
Quote from: jhkim on July 05, 2021, 02:58:28 PM
I don't know the view of people who are vocally opposed to gay marriage. However, I play with plenty of gay and queer gamers. In my experience, most don't like associating socially with people who are opposed to gay marriage.
One of my players is gay and married or at least very long term partnered. He gets on fine with conservative gamers - I'd say he was fairly conservative himself - but he does get annoyed by some of the SJW snowflakes he encounters online whose identity is focused on 'privilege' and 'oppression'.
Quote from: amacris on July 05, 2021, 03:20:22 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 05, 2021, 02:44:30 PM
The mistake you make is thinking they have a conscience. Hypocrisy isn't a bug in their ideology, its a FEATURE. They are the Anointed so they don't have to abide by the same standards as the "Oppressors." Their proof that Gygax is a monster who needs to die is that someone else on Twitter said he was; no further proof needed.
I concur with Chris24601's thoughts on SJWs and would expand even further. They do not even acknowledge their hypocrisy. You have to read Herbert Marcuse's "Repressive Tolerance" to understand the full depth of their ideology. I've blogged about it extensively elsewhere with point by point elaborations; here, let's just summarize the doctrine of repressive tolerance in plain English:
1. Tolerance is only to be extended to truth.
2. Only leftism is objectively true, and anything other than leftism is not.
3. Therefore tolerance is only to be extended to leftism.
4. Anyone who disagrees with this has been indoctrinated by the right wing. To the extent that the majority of people disagree, that means the majority of people are indoctrinated.
5. Since most people are indoctrinated, leftists must break the indoctrination so that they can grasp the truth of leftism.
6. To break the indoctrination, leftists must promote left-wing thought and suppress right-wing thought.
7. Promoting left-wing thought is accomplished by changing "established universes of meaning" and actively presenting "information slanted in the opposite direction," e.g. by political correctness and propaganda.
8. Suppressing right-wing thought is accomplished by withdrawing the freedom of speech, press, and assembly for anyone who disagrees with leftists on race, gender, religion, armament, public services, social security, or healthcare, e.g. deplatforming us entirely.
9. If necessary to withdraw these freedoms, leftists must operate at such scale that the actions cease to be non-violent and become revolutionary violence.
10. Leftists who use revolutionary violence are not to be condemned by any leftists.
I could, if you want, back up each and every bullet point above with paragraph-length quotes by Herbert Marcuse and other New Leftists; but it's painful to read. In brief, the doctrine holds that left-wing speech, assembly and action must be praised and promoted; while right-wing speech, assembly, and action must be condemned, suppressed, and punished. It's not hypocrisy when they do that. It's their stated manifesto, with an elaborate ideological edifice to justify it.
Aye. This is why I get so annoyed by Nice Liberals who say the SJW Left "Mean Well, They Have Good Intentions, But...". They do not mean well, they do not have good intentions. Their intentions are highly malign.
Quote from: Godsmonkey on July 05, 2021, 01:52:58 PM
Back to the subject of stopping D&D SJWs, here is my personal strategy:
1. Call them out for hypocrisy, and double standards whenever possible.
2. When they claim X (for example Ernie Gygax is transphobic because of recent statements) wake them PROVE it. Ask for quotes, demand proof. Sure they will just ban you or block you, and accuse you of being a "ist" but that's only because they lost the argument, and deep down probably know it.
3. Refuse to buy material from companies who cow tow to woke agenda. This includes attending conventions. Write the company expressing your displeasure and let them know you will not only never buy another product from them until they become politically neutral, but you will publicly encourage others to as well.
4. (or maybe 3b?) Box up all your material from said company and RETURN it with your letter of admonishment. This is putting your money where your mouth is. Sure, they got your cash, but returning your PHB and DMG shows you aren't playing around. If they get thousands of books returned, it will send a stronger message than just a terse email.
5. Buy from companies who refuse to play the woke game. RPG Pundent, Venger Satanis are just 2 of many designers/publishers who are either right leaning, or neutral that produce quality products.
1. Complaining about a double standard is a complete waste of time with leftist ideologues who go as far as these dipshits do. They have no principles and no standards. Telling a cheater he is breaking the rules is not going to do a damn thing IMO.
2. Asking for proof is a complete waste of time, because these people believe in "their truth", and honestly are on a crusade/jihad. All they care about is the means to an end, no principles, no standards. Pushing rules on people who cheat like hell or simply do not care about rules is not going to help at all.
3. This could have some effect. However, I think it is a drop in the ocean. These corporations watch the enormous corporations that promote the woke. The multinationals control the dialogue, know the average iq in the USA is dropping every year and know people will just bleat and do as they are told. I agree with doing, I just would not expect results.
4.That IMO can have a tiny effect. If you were to record yourself taking the products out and burning them, and explaining you know its your money you are burning, could have some viral effect that triggers what you describe (more people doing likewise or sending their stuff back to them..which I am against this, they are just going to sell the used books and products again as used). A viral video would get some attention though, be prepared for the twitter gang to make sure every one knows where you work and live if you do it.
5. This one is the best for sure, and one that I think gets results. As an aside, what products does Venger put out? I got three books recently that Pundit wrote, and they are very good.
Quote from: S'mon on July 05, 2021, 04:46:04 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 05, 2021, 02:58:28 PM
I don't know the view of people who are vocally opposed to gay marriage. However, I play with plenty of gay and queer gamers. In my experience, most don't like associating socially with people who are opposed to gay marriage.
One of my players is gay and married or at least very long term partnered. He gets on fine with conservative gamers - I'd say he was fairly conservative himself - but he does get annoyed by some of the SJW snowflakes he encounters online whose identity is focused on 'privilege' and 'oppression'.
I think, as Douglas Murray is wont to say, that is the difference between a Gay and a Queer.
Quote from: oggsmash on July 05, 2021, 05:26:38 PM
Quote from: Godsmonkey on July 05, 2021, 01:52:58 PM
Back to the subject of stopping D&D SJWs, here is my personal strategy:
1. Call them out for hypocrisy, and double standards whenever possible.
2. When they claim X (for example Ernie Gygax is transphobic because of recent statements) wake them PROVE it. Ask for quotes, demand proof. Sure they will just ban you or block you, and accuse you of being a "ist" but that's only because they lost the argument, and deep down probably know it.
3. Refuse to buy material from companies who cow tow to woke agenda. This includes attending conventions. Write the company expressing your displeasure and let them know you will not only never buy another product from them until they become politically neutral, but you will publicly encourage others to as well.
4. (or maybe 3b?) Box up all your material from said company and RETURN it with your letter of admonishment. This is putting your money where your mouth is. Sure, they got your cash, but returning your PHB and DMG shows you aren't playing around. If they get thousands of books returned, it will send a stronger message than just a terse email.
5. Buy from companies who refuse to play the woke game. RPG Pundent, Venger Satanis are just 2 of many designers/publishers who are either right leaning, or neutral that produce quality products.
1. Complaining about a double standard is a complete waste of time with leftist ideologues who go as far as these dipshits do. They have no principles and no standards. Telling a cheater he is breaking the rules is not going to do a damn thing IMO.
2. Asking for proof is a complete waste of time, because these people believe in "their truth", and honestly are on a crusade/jihad. All they care about is the means to an end, no principles, no standards. Pushing rules on people who cheat like hell or simply do not care about rules is not going to help at all.
3. This could have some effect. However, I think it is a drop in the ocean. These corporations watch the enormous corporations that promote the woke. The multinationals control the dialogue, know the average iq in the USA is dropping every year and know people will just bleat and do as they are told. I agree with doing, I just would not expect results.
4.That IMO can have a tiny effect. If you were to record yourself taking the products out and burning them, and explaining you know its your money you are burning, could have some viral effect that triggers what you describe (more people doing likewise or sending their stuff back to them..which I am against this, they are just going to sell the used books and products again as used). A viral video would get some attention though, be prepared for the twitter gang to make sure every one knows where you work and live if you do it.
5. This one is the best for sure, and one that I think gets results. As an aside, what products does Venger put out? I got three books recently that Pundit wrote, and they are very good.
I know much of this is pissing into a fan. However, there are a few people who will read the debates, and see past the woke outrage, and recognize the truth.
While I do see your point about returning the books, I dont know if WotC would sell used copies. And of course one could deface the books rendering them unsellable when returning them. and dont just send them to the companies, send them to the President of Hasbro.
Quote from: Godsmonkey on July 05, 2021, 07:04:27 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on July 05, 2021, 05:26:38 PM
Quote from: Godsmonkey on July 05, 2021, 01:52:58 PM
Back to the subject of stopping D&D SJWs, here is my personal strategy:
1. Call them out for hypocrisy, and double standards whenever possible.
2. When they claim X (for example Ernie Gygax is transphobic because of recent statements) wake them PROVE it. Ask for quotes, demand proof. Sure they will just ban you or block you, and accuse you of being a "ist" but that's only because they lost the argument, and deep down probably know it.
3. Refuse to buy material from companies who cow tow to woke agenda. This includes attending conventions. Write the company expressing your displeasure and let them know you will not only never buy another product from them until they become politically neutral, but you will publicly encourage others to as well.
4. (or maybe 3b?) Box up all your material from said company and RETURN it with your letter of admonishment. This is putting your money where your mouth is. Sure, they got your cash, but returning your PHB and DMG shows you aren't playing around. If they get thousands of books returned, it will send a stronger message than just a terse email.
5. Buy from companies who refuse to play the woke game. RPG Pundent, Venger Satanis are just 2 of many designers/publishers who are either right leaning, or neutral that produce quality products.
1. Complaining about a double standard is a complete waste of time with leftist ideologues who go as far as these dipshits do. They have no principles and no standards. Telling a cheater he is breaking the rules is not going to do a damn thing IMO.
2. Asking for proof is a complete waste of time, because these people believe in "their truth", and honestly are on a crusade/jihad. All they care about is the means to an end, no principles, no standards. Pushing rules on people who cheat like hell or simply do not care about rules is not going to help at all.
3. This could have some effect. However, I think it is a drop in the ocean. These corporations watch the enormous corporations that promote the woke. The multinationals control the dialogue, know the average iq in the USA is dropping every year and know people will just bleat and do as they are told. I agree with doing, I just would not expect results.
4.That IMO can have a tiny effect. If you were to record yourself taking the products out and burning them, and explaining you know its your money you are burning, could have some viral effect that triggers what you describe (more people doing likewise or sending their stuff back to them..which I am against this, they are just going to sell the used books and products again as used). A viral video would get some attention though, be prepared for the twitter gang to make sure every one knows where you work and live if you do it.
5. This one is the best for sure, and one that I think gets results. As an aside, what products does Venger put out? I got three books recently that Pundit wrote, and they are very good.
I know much of this is pissing into a fan. However, there are a few people who will read the debates, and see past the woke outrage, and recognize the truth.
While I do see your point about returning the books, I dont know if WotC would sell used copies. And of course one could deface the books rendering them unsellable when returning them. and dont just send them to the companies, send them to the President of Hasbro.
In real life, there are many who will listen. On the internet, none.
Quote from: S'mon on July 05, 2021, 04:49:54 PM
Aye. This is why I get so annoyed by Nice Liberals who say the SJW Left "Mean Well, They Have Good Intentions, But...". They do not mean well, they do not have good intentions. Their intentions are highly malign.
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
QuoteThe SJW's don't buy games. They don't play games. And yet the large gaming companies are kowtowing to them.
Sorry to say it mate, but yeah they do. Quite a lot. Probably more than conservatists. (And I mean I'm not even surprised).
Been on enough various RPG facebook groups run by leftists to see they are clearly also gamers. Deluding ourselves in this regard won't help.
Also in younger generations amount of SJWs are way higher than among overall population - and those shall be consoomers.
QuoteThis is the real question: how much of the market does woke account for in terms of purchases regardless of number of people.
The problem is normies in West are generally on board with social progresssivists - even if not with various full blown anarchocommunist queer factions or XIR neopronouns.
So the WOTC or MCU level of woke catering will be tolerated by them, and WOTC or MCU will not go full Thirsty Sword Lesbians way at least not in this generation.
QuoteHow is some stranger im just sitting down to play D&D with supposed to know im a Christian anyway?
In my playing such things usually are revealed in banter.
QuoteGameogre - you're speaking as if I'm talking about all Christians, when I specified a couple "who are vocally opposed to gay marriage" - which is the important part about that. It sounds to me like you are not vocally opposed to gay marriage. I can't tell if you privately oppose gay marriage, but even if so, it doesn't sound like you're vocal about it.
Define vocally.
Look I'm vocally oppossed to Lutheranism and Calvinism - I'd still game with such filthy heretics, if game was good.
QuoteIn my experience, most don't like associating socially with people who are opposed to gay marriage.
Well their call. But that only gives credence to theory that it's left who is more picky about people around table.
Quote from: Dapig on July 03, 2021, 05:21:31 PM
I think we have to fight on each site, each forum and keep a torch lit.
I am a refugee from another site. As soon as you start winning an argument, they impose restrictions on the language that you can use. Over an ENWorld, you cannot use the words ideology, political, sjw and many others. This is meant to cripple your ability to debate.
Worse, they further restrict words you use to fairly debate. Recently they banned someone for using the word "cancelled."
Nonetheless, we have to buck up and keep debating. Sucks to be be dogpiled and ultimately banned but sucks worse to hide in a cave and leave others without hope.
We have to encourage others actively and let our logic and reality based arguments shine. And then also regroup and replenish and hang out on sites with actual free speech like this one.
This is right. Basically when people can't back their arguments with logic and reason, or even the occasional spirited rude comments, the weak sisters of the group go to "mommy" (aka heavily moderation) to make sure that only those who think like they do are allowed to say and think what the group wants.
Back in its heyday, for example, I used to love "Aint it Cool News", not for its articles- they were lame- but the forums were a free for all, almost no moderation- so there were insults along with debate. And what came out of it, was fun, nonsense, and some good intellectual conversation.
I used to go to Comic Book Resources, but after a couple of incidents, that forum became so heavily moderated, you couldn't say "boo" without being banned. I was banned for something so mild... I can't even remember what it was for. Questioning a writer's talent, I think, for Christ's sake, on a comic book forum. Not even in a rude way.
Anyway, short version, censorship isn't a way to go, imo. Hopefully this board remains a forum for open discussion for rpgs!
Something Awful's forums were surprisingly polite back in the day. Partly because you had to pay to get on, and being a cocksucker meant you could get shitcanned and out the ten bucks or so.
I've never had a problem with moderation. What I have a problem with is inconsistent or blatant favoritism in moderation.
This is why RPGnet is shit, and will continue to be shit.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 06, 2021, 11:20:57 AM
Something Awful's forums were surprisingly polite back in the day. Partly because you had to pay to get on, and being a cocksucker meant you could get shitcanned and out the ten bucks or so.
I've never had a problem with moderation. What I have a problem with is inconsistent or blatant favoritism in moderation.
This is why RPGnet is shit, and will continue to be shit.
And it's not just them!
Mid argument, just when you are making a point a certain site let's you know the word, a neutral word is verboten. If you can't win with logic, just steal words from your mouth....
Quote from: Dapig on July 06, 2021, 12:39:34 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 06, 2021, 11:20:57 AM
Something Awful's forums were surprisingly polite back in the day. Partly because you had to pay to get on, and being a cocksucker meant you could get shitcanned and out the ten bucks or so.
I've never had a problem with moderation. What I have a problem with is inconsistent or blatant favoritism in moderation.
This is why RPGnet is shit, and will continue to be shit.
And it's not just them!
Mid argument, just when you are making a point a certain site let's you know the word, a neutral word is verboten. If you can't win with logic, just steal words from your mouth....
Just say the word and the site, dude. Pretty certain Pundit's not going to yell at you for samizdat.
Quote from: S'mon on July 05, 2021, 04:46:04 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 05, 2021, 02:58:28 PM
I don't know the view of people who are vocally opposed to gay marriage. However, I play with plenty of gay and queer gamers. In my experience, most don't like associating socially with people who are opposed to gay marriage.
One of my players is gay and married or at least very long term partnered. He gets on fine with conservative gamers - I'd say he was fairly conservative himself - but he does get annoyed by some of the SJW snowflakes he encounters online whose identity is focused on 'privilege' and 'oppression'.
That's cool.
However, I feel like you've replace "anti-gay-marriage" (my words) with broader "conservative" - similar to how Gameogre replaced "Christian".
In general, gay people tend to lean liberal as a demographic - but almost no gay people are specifically anti-gay-marriage -- and in my experience, they tend to react poorly to people who are vocally anti-gay-marriage.
For example, back in 2008, I went out on my street corner with my son with signs opposing California Prop 8 that would ban gay marriage. There were also a bunch of members of the local Pentecostal Church holding signs supporting Prop 8. We were able to speak respectfully and our kids played some together and shared some ice cream. However, when I spoke of this with my gay friends, I recall some said that they didn't think they'd be able to do this. They felt it would be difficult to be respectful in the face of people picketing to deny them marriage rights, because they were inherently not being treated with respect by those church members.
I can't tell if this is different from your experience, because you're talking more broadly about just being "conservative" as opposed to "anti-gay-marriage".
Quote from: jhkim on July 06, 2021, 05:26:59 PM
Quote from: S'mon on July 05, 2021, 04:46:04 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 05, 2021, 02:58:28 PM
I don't know the view of people who are vocally opposed to gay marriage. However, I play with plenty of gay and queer gamers. In my experience, most don't like associating socially with people who are opposed to gay marriage.
One of my players is gay and married or at least very long term partnered. He gets on fine with conservative gamers - I'd say he was fairly conservative himself - but he does get annoyed by some of the SJW snowflakes he encounters online whose identity is focused on 'privilege' and 'oppression'.
That's cool.
However, I feel like you've replace "anti-gay-marriage" (my words) with broader "conservative" - similar to how Gameogre replaced "Christian".
In general, gay people tend to lean liberal as a demographic - but almost no gay people are specifically anti-gay-marriage --
https://theconversation.com/gay-rebels-why-some-older-homosexual-men-dont-support-same-sex-marriage-86205
https://www.cooperhewitt.org/2019/06/05/gays-against-gay-marriage-2/
https://theconversation.com/why-same-sex-marriage-is-not-the-ultimate-tool-for-queer-liberation-103702
http://www.againstequality.org/stuff/against-equality-queer-critiques-of-gay-marriage/
I don't know exactly how many gay people are critical or downright against gay marriage, but it's a notable amount that have argued against it, primarily on the queer criticism that marriage itself is conservative and restrictive.
I do appreciate the freedom here...
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 06, 2021, 05:43:20 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 06, 2021, 05:26:59 PM
In general, gay people tend to lean liberal as a demographic - but almost no gay people are specifically anti-gay-marriage --
https://theconversation.com/gay-rebels-why-some-older-homosexual-men-dont-support-same-sex-marriage-86205
https://www.cooperhewitt.org/2019/06/05/gays-against-gay-marriage-2/
https://theconversation.com/why-same-sex-marriage-is-not-the-ultimate-tool-for-queer-liberation-103702
http://www.againstequality.org/stuff/against-equality-queer-critiques-of-gay-marriage/
I don't know exactly how many gay people are critical or downright against gay marriage, but it's a notable amount that have argued against it, primarily on the queer criticism that marriage itself is conservative and restrictive.
OK, fair cop that they exist.
Still, in my experience, this radical anti-marriage stance is a very small minority. Further, I suspect the anti-marriage contingent (i.e. who say marriage is itself conservative and restrictive) would be even less compatible with conservative Christians like my local Pentecostals.
I don't think it drives against the general point that in the current climate, there are mutually incompatible groups of gamers.
Quote from: jhkim on July 06, 2021, 06:20:47 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 06, 2021, 05:43:20 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 06, 2021, 05:26:59 PM
In general, gay people tend to lean liberal as a demographic - but almost no gay people are specifically anti-gay-marriage --
https://theconversation.com/gay-rebels-why-some-older-homosexual-men-dont-support-same-sex-marriage-86205
https://www.cooperhewitt.org/2019/06/05/gays-against-gay-marriage-2/
https://theconversation.com/why-same-sex-marriage-is-not-the-ultimate-tool-for-queer-liberation-103702
http://www.againstequality.org/stuff/against-equality-queer-critiques-of-gay-marriage/
I don't know exactly how many gay people are critical or downright against gay marriage, but it's a notable amount that have argued against it, primarily on the queer criticism that marriage itself is conservative and restrictive.
OK, fair cop that they exist.
Still, in my experience, this radical anti-marriage stance is a very small minority. Further, I suspect the anti-marriage contingent (i.e. who say marriage is itself conservative and restrictive) would be even less compatible with conservative Christians like my local Pentecostals.
I don't think it drives against the general point that in the current climate, there are mutually incompatible groups of gamers.
Oh, I agree with you there. I just don't think the dividing line is homosexuality. I think the incompatible groups are the ones trying to turn the RPG space into an ideological battleground over personal politics.
All your points is based on very small minorities.
Your bias sees these tiny little minorities as vast numbers.
Everything the left does is based on this. The Vast majority of people on any sexuality, religion, Political party or any other way you want to divide up people are fine with each other unless they are MADE to feel attacked.
That's all that the left and the media do and frankly is what I have seen you do here. Try to divide and make people feel like they are under fire or that other people feel like they are under fire.
You want to see fire and attackers around every corner and they just are not there. You seize on any evidence and want to trumpet it as if it's everywhere. It's not but it will NEVER go away. Human beings are flawed and 15% of us at any one time are just fucking nuts. Those nutters will hate group A and the nutters in group A will hate group B and the nutter in group B will hate group C and....it goes on forever.
The 85% of us that are not currently nutters just have to say "Shut Up and Sit down". Not try and change the lay of the land based on those few nutballs.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 06, 2021, 06:55:36 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 06, 2021, 06:20:47 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 06, 2021, 05:43:20 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 06, 2021, 05:26:59 PM
In general, gay people tend to lean liberal as a demographic - but almost no gay people are specifically anti-gay-marriage --
https://theconversation.com/gay-rebels-why-some-older-homosexual-men-dont-support-same-sex-marriage-86205
https://www.cooperhewitt.org/2019/06/05/gays-against-gay-marriage-2/
https://theconversation.com/why-same-sex-marriage-is-not-the-ultimate-tool-for-queer-liberation-103702
http://www.againstequality.org/stuff/against-equality-queer-critiques-of-gay-marriage/
I don't know exactly how many gay people are critical or downright against gay marriage, but it's a notable amount that have argued against it, primarily on the queer criticism that marriage itself is conservative and restrictive.
OK, fair cop that they exist.
Still, in my experience, this radical anti-marriage stance is a very small minority. Further, I suspect the anti-marriage contingent (i.e. who say marriage is itself conservative and restrictive) would be even less compatible with conservative Christians like my local Pentecostals.
I don't think it drives against the general point that in the current climate, there are mutually incompatible groups of gamers.
Oh, I agree with you there. I just don't think the dividing line is homosexuality. I think the incompatible groups are the ones trying to turn the RPG space into an ideological battleground over personal politics.
Pretty much. That's why I offer as the general rule for MAGACon to be...
"Behavior deemed disruptive to a game session by the GM; ex. not dropping non-session related discussions when asked and continuing public displays of affection at the gaming table when asked to stop; is grounds for expulsion from the session without refund."That safely covers both of Jhkim's extremes without prejudice. Frankly, a heterosexual couple who couldn't keep their hands off each other would be just as disruptive at a typical convention game table as a homosexual one and the guy who won't shut up about UFO conspiracy theories or their favorite recipes is every bit as disruptive as the one who won't shut up about gay marriage long enough to actually game.
The criteria is... "is the action disruptive of other people's fun? If yes, expel them from the session."
Quote from: Gameogre on July 06, 2021, 07:16:39 PM
That's all that the left and the media do and frankly is what I have seen you do here. Try to divide and make people feel like they are under fire or that other people feel like they are under fire.
You want to see fire and attackers around every corner and they just are not there. You seize on any evidence and want to trumpet it as if it's everywhere. It's not but it will NEVER go away. Human beings are flawed and 15% of us at any one time are just fucking nuts. Those nutters will hate group A and the nutters in group A will hate group B and the nutter in group B will hate group C and....it goes on forever.
The 85% of us that are not currently nutters just have to say "Shut Up and Sit down". Not try and change the lay of the land based on those few nutballs.
But it seems to me that people like VengerSatanis and many others here are precisely complaining about being told "Shut Up and Sit Down" by the current game convention organizers like GenCon and others. They are pushing back because they feel that they are under fire. I didn't start that talk - I responded to VengerSatanis' complaint.
And I haven't said anything against this. I'm in support of suggestions like Chris24601's talk of a "MAGAcon" - not because I agree with his politics, but because I think people should have their choice of what game convention to attend. People should be free to organize a MAGAcon or a communist game convention or any other, and gamers attend whichever ones they like. To the extent that some other liberals would try to shut down a MAGAcon simply for existing, I'm opposed to that.
I don't think anyone should have to shut up and sit down. It's a game they're playing for fun.
What I am saying is that I don't think there is any way to please the 7.5% most left-leaning gamers and 7.5% most right-leaning gamers at the same convention. If you please one side, the other will be unhappy, and vice-versa.
Quote from: jhkim on July 06, 2021, 09:03:59 PM
But it seems to me that people like VengerSatanis and many others here are precisely complaining about being told "Shut Up and Sit Down" by the current game convention organizers like GenCon and others. They are pushing back because they feel that they are under fire. I didn't start that talk - I responded to VengerSatanis' complaint.
Uhhh, no. People like VS are being told what they have to say and not say. They're not being told to "Shut up about politics and play"; they're being told "You must say this, you must not say that, and your silence on political matters is unacceptable." There's a world of difference between those stances (but we all know you are all about relativism and willfully blind to any distinctions that would challenge it).
Quote from: jhkim on July 06, 2021, 09:03:59 PM
But it seems to me that people like VengerSatanis and many others here are precisely complaining about being told "Shut Up and Sit Down" by the current game convention organizers like GenCon and others. They are pushing back because they feel that they are under fire. I didn't start that talk - I responded to VengerSatanis' complaint.
Are you reading the same thread? Because I don't see anyone in the group of people you're talking to saying they want to express their own political views at gaming conventions. No, they're saying they don't want politics forced on them. Multiple people have responded to your example of an anti-gay marriage couple with roughly the equivalent of "they should shut up too. We just want to game."
Quote from: Pat on July 06, 2021, 09:22:53 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 06, 2021, 09:03:59 PM
But it seems to me that people like VengerSatanis and many others here are precisely complaining about being told "Shut Up and Sit Down" by the current game convention organizers like GenCon and others. They are pushing back because they feel that they are under fire. I didn't start that talk - I responded to VengerSatanis' complaint.
Are you reading the same thread? Because I don't see anyone in the group of people you're talking to saying they want to express their own political views at gaming conventions. No, they're saying they don't want politics forced on them. Multiple people have responded to your example of an anti-gay marriage couple with roughly the equivalent of "they should shut up too. We just want to game."
But but... don't you understand? Their beliefs aren't political! They are TRUTH! Only people with political agendas would try to deny TRUTH!
Sarcasm obviously intended... kinda; because that is how they see it. Obsession with genetalia and it's use is the core of their existence and so to deny or ignore it is to deny their very existence.
Eventually we're either going have to re-establish insane asylums or put the nutters down because they will not leave the vast majority alone and are increasingly trying to ruin and endanger the lives of those who don't succumb to their narcissistic demands.
Until then, at least I got an idea for my next adventure site in the campaign I'm running; a ruined asylum haunted by the angry ghosts of the mad trying to force their delusions on all who enter.
To what degree are we supposed to be invested in the personal beliefs, hangups and retarded framing of reality of the people around us when we're trying to play elf-games?
The answer is none.
It's like that.
Quote from: jhkim on July 06, 2021, 05:26:59 PM
Quote from: S'mon on July 05, 2021, 04:46:04 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 05, 2021, 02:58:28 PM
I don't know the view of people who are vocally opposed to gay marriage. However, I play with plenty of gay and queer gamers. In my experience, most don't like associating socially with people who are opposed to gay marriage.
One of my players is gay and married or at least very long term partnered. He gets on fine with conservative gamers - I'd say he was fairly conservative himself - but he does get annoyed by some of the SJW snowflakes he encounters online whose identity is focused on 'privilege' and 'oppression'.
That's cool.
However, I feel like you've replace "anti-gay-marriage" (my words) with broader "conservative" - similar to how Gameogre replaced "Christian".
In general, gay people tend to lean liberal as a demographic - but almost no gay people are specifically anti-gay-marriage -- and in my experience, they tend to react poorly to people who are vocally anti-gay-marriage.
For example, back in 2008, I went out on my street corner with my son with signs opposing California Prop 8 that would ban gay marriage. There were also a bunch of members of the local Pentecostal Church holding signs supporting Prop 8. We were able to speak respectfully and our kids played some together and shared some ice cream. However, when I spoke of this with my gay friends, I recall some said that they didn't think they'd be able to do this. They felt it would be difficult to be respectful in the face of people picketing to deny them marriage rights, because they were inherently not being treated with respect by those church members.
I can't tell if this is different from your experience, because you're talking more broadly about just being "conservative" as opposed to "anti-gay-marriage".
I'm not sure exactly what you're saying.
IME:
1. Radical Christians who can't shut up about gay marriage long enough to play D&D are not the sort of people to play D&D; they probably think it's the work of Satan.
2. Normal gay people have no problem playing D&D with Christians and conservatives, nobody goes on about gay marriage at the game table.
3. There are a lot of social justice snowflakes on left-coast USA and a few other enclaves who have a highly distorted, media induced view of Christians & conservatives, causing them to be radicalised and intolerant. These people tend to drive away other sorts of gamers including many normal gay people.
Quote from: Dapig on July 03, 2021, 05:21:31 PM
...
I am a refugee from another site. As soon as you start winning an argument, they impose restrictions on the language that you can use. Over an ENWorld, you cannot use the words ideology, political, sjw and many others. This is meant to cripple your ability to debate.
...
They must restrict words because they have no real answer to the truth.
The real truth is this:
Quote from: tenbones on July 07, 2021, 12:33:38 AM
To what degree are we supposed to be invested in the personal beliefs, hangups and retarded framing of reality of the people around us when we're trying to play elf-games?
The answer is none. ...
Because this!
Quote from: S'mon on July 07, 2021, 05:58:43 AM
...
IME:
1. Radical Christians who can't shut up about gay marriage long enough to play D&D are not the sort of people to play D&D; they probably think it's the work of Satan.
2. Normal gay people have no problem playing D&D with Christians and conservatives, nobody goes on about gay marriage at the game table.
3. There are a lot of social justice snowflakes on left-coast USA and a few other enclaves who have a highly distorted, media induced view of Christians & conservatives, causing them to be radicalised and intolerant. These people tend to drive away other sorts of gamers including many normal gay people.
If you show up to play, and are a good player – Nobody fucking cares!
Never have. This is not hard.
Nobody cares about outliers, edge cases, what if's, and "what about potential scenario x".
You want to keep wringing your hands, clutching your pearls, and keeping your smelling salts close at hand because some evil "christian" might jump out of the woodpile to oppress you... go right ahead.
The rest of us will be having fun playing elf-games.
So back on topic:
How do we defeat the SJW's?
Venger was right on this point:
We need to build our own Kingdoms.
The apolitical "gaming is for everyone" stance is not for the SJW's, it is for the normies.
We need outreach to show people that there are other ways to play "D&D", and to bring them into the fold.
Maybe even have them play non-fantasy games too...
Because ultimately, tenbones is right:
Quote from: tenbones on July 03, 2021, 03:23:26 PM
...
I would add a necessary addendum to this: We need to reach out and bring new people into the fold. Without outreach this is plan of attrition where we get ground down. If we bring new players into our midsts... then we have the advantage. Our GM's are better. Our games are better. The best way to serve ourselves and our aims is to take their players from them and show them.
Remember - WE have been here longer than them. They own the name. We own the spirit.
These people are riding high on a pop-culture wave of popularity that they had nothing to do with. 5e had silly lucky timing, and they are acting like it will go on forever.
It will not.
WOTC will fuck it up.
And if we grow enough, someone on our side will be in a position to be the next pathfinder to WOTC's 6e woke abortion.
That is the goal. But make no mistake; it is one tall fucking order.
Quote from: S'mon on July 07, 2021, 05:58:43 AM
I'm not sure exactly what you're saying.
I think the gay marriage point is a dead end here - in retrospect, I regret engage when oggsmash brought it up. My point is simply that in the current political climate, the most left-leaning gamers and the most right-leaning gamers probably aren't happy gaming together.
Let me take a more concrete example. I currently game mostly at my local game conventions in the SF Bay Area - like Big Bad Con, Pacificon, and ConQuest. Here, a majority of the players and organizers are heavily left-leaning, and there are lots of left-leaning practices, like providing pronoun ribbons to put on one's convention badges. I think Venger is right that a MAGA-hat-wearing gamers would not be welcomed there, while BLM-shirt-wearing gamer would be. I don't think that they would be officially thrown out for that reason, but I'm sure it wouldn't work out well.
On the other hand, if a gamer doesn't mention any politics, as far as I know, they are welcome to play. There is no swearing-in ceremony that requires anyone to swear to liberal principles. The liberalness just shows up in the social practices and themes of the games played.
My question is: Would posters here be comfortable coming to these conventions and not mentioning politics? If not, then what changes could the organizers do that would convince you to come? It seems to me that many people here are expressing general disinterest in this, just like Jaeger posted:
Quote from: Jaeger on July 07, 2021, 04:07:17 PM
How do we defeat the SJW's?
Venger was right on this point:
We need to build our own Kingdoms.
The apolitical "gaming is for everyone" stance is not for the SJW's, it is for the normies.
We need outreach to show people that there are other ways to play "D&D", and to bring them into the fold.
I'm good with this, and I might even try playing the other ways, even though I'm generally happy with the games I'm currently playing.
Quote from: jhkim on July 07, 2021, 05:10:17 PM
My question is: Would posters here be comfortable coming to these conventions and not mentioning politics? If not, then what changes could the organizers do that would convince you to come?
There's a big difference between a convention banning politics of all stripes, and a very biased and political convention where people who don't agree are expected to shut up.
Nobody except you is bringing up the latter case.
Quote from: jhkim on July 07, 2021, 05:10:17 PM
Quote from: S'mon on July 07, 2021, 05:58:43 AM
I'm not sure exactly what you're saying.
I think the gay marriage point is a dead end here - in retrospect, I regret engage when oggsmash brought it up. My point is simply that in the current political climate, the most left-leaning gamers and the most right-leaning gamers probably aren't happy gaming together.
Let me take a more concrete example. I currently game mostly at my local game conventions in the SF Bay Area - like Big Bad Con, Pacificon, and ConQuest. Here, a majority of the players and organizers are heavily left-leaning, and there are lots of left-leaning practices, like providing pronoun ribbons to put on one's convention badges. I think Venger is right that a MAGA-hat-wearing gamers would not be welcomed there, while BLM-shirt-wearing gamer would be. I don't think that they would be officially thrown out for that reason, but I'm sure it wouldn't work out well.
On the other hand, if a gamer doesn't mention any politics, as far as I know, they are welcome to play. There is no swearing-in ceremony that requires anyone to swear to liberal principles. The liberalness just shows up in the social practices and themes of the games played.
My question is: Would posters here be comfortable coming to these conventions and not mentioning politics? If not, then what changes could the organizers do that would convince you to come? It seems to me that many people here are expressing general disinterest in this, just like Jaeger posted:
Quote from: Jaeger on July 07, 2021, 04:07:17 PM
How do we defeat the SJW's?
Venger was right on this point:
We need to build our own Kingdoms.
The apolitical "gaming is for everyone" stance is not for the SJW's, it is for the normies.
We need outreach to show people that there are other ways to play "D&D", and to bring them into the fold.
I'm good with this, and I might even try playing the other ways, even though I'm generally happy with the games I'm currently playing.
Yeah, because ribbons or badges with pronouns totally aren't political...
A MAGA hat wearing gamer would probably be thrown out and probable curbstomped by the antifart goons in the con, with the con latter baning said gamer while turning a blind eye to the antifart goons actions.
Those conventions ARE political, they have clearly choosen a side and are busy telling everybody which side that is. By using said pronoun ribbons or whatever.
But you are telling us they wouldn't throw out a MAGA hat wearing gamer? Come on, not even you believe what you wrote.
Quote from: jhkim on July 07, 2021, 05:10:17 PM
Quote from: S'mon on July 07, 2021, 05:58:43 AM
I'm not sure exactly what you're saying.
I think the gay marriage point is a dead end here - in retrospect, I regret engage when oggsmash brought it up. My point is simply that in the current political climate, the most left-leaning gamers and the most right-leaning gamers probably aren't happy gaming together.
Let me take a more concrete example. I currently game mostly at my local game conventions in the SF Bay Area - like Big Bad Con, Pacificon, and ConQuest. Here, a majority of the players and organizers are heavily left-leaning, and there are lots of left-leaning practices, like providing pronoun ribbons to put on one's convention badges. I think Venger is right that a MAGA-hat-wearing gamers would not be welcomed there, while BLM-shirt-wearing gamer would be. I don't think that they would be officially thrown out for that reason, but I'm sure it wouldn't work out well.
On the other hand, if a gamer doesn't mention any politics, as far as I know, they are welcome to play. There is no swearing-in ceremony that requires anyone to swear to liberal principles. The liberalness just shows up in the social practices and themes of the games played.
My question is: Would posters here be comfortable coming to these conventions and not mentioning politics? If not, then what changes could the organizers do that would convince you to come? It seems to me that many people here are expressing general disinterest in this, just like Jaeger posted:
I live in the Pacific Northwest, Seattle area, and there's a constant undertone of progressive politics when I go out in public to game. My local gaming pub does the "We're inclusive!" rainbow flag thing, and there's plenty of cons that advertise their LGBTQ+ friendliness. At this point, I just roll my eyes and play my games.
It's not a deal breaker... yet. But I'm constantly reminded that there is a hegemony of thought here, and some animals are more equal than others.
We beat them by not buying their products. If enough people buy their products they will keep making them. Plain and simple.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 07, 2021, 07:08:33 PM
I live in the Pacific Northwest, Seattle area, and there's a constant undertone of progressive politics when I go out in public to game. My local gaming pub does the "We're inclusive!" rainbow flag thing, and there's plenty of cons that advertise their LGBTQ+ friendliness. At this point, I just roll my eyes and play my games.
It's not a deal breaker... yet. But I'm constantly reminded that there is a hegemony of thought here, and some animals are more equal than others.
Thanks, Ratman. That sounds similar to the SF Bay Area. I also go to AmberCon Northwest in Portland, which is actually a little less explicitly progressive than the local Bay area conventions, but still has progressive influence and progressive-leaning attendees. The most left-leaning convention I've been to is probably Big Bad Con.
The general point here is that I have nothing against apolitical games - but I also have nothing against liberal-theme games or conservative-themed games. I don't think anyone is changing their politics over the games they play - they are just selecting games that fit their politics. A lot of people on both sides believe that the games of the opposing side need to get stamped out - I think that's futile.
With conventions, I welcome people running different conventions. I don't think there's a perfect solution where all the liberal Seattle-area gamers are happy and all the conservative gamers are also equally happy. There will be lots of little choices that each side will differ on. There can be centrist cons, or conservative cons, or liberal cons - but I don't think there's a con that everyone will be happy with. Most posters here probably don't care about whether the progressive Seattle crowd are happy, and that's fine -- run cons to please the people you care about.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 07, 2021, 05:48:06 PM
Those conventions ARE political, they have clearly choosen a side and are busy telling everybody which side that is. By using said pronoun ribbons or whatever.
But you are telling us they wouldn't throw out a MAGA hat wearing gamer? Come on, not even you believe what you wrote.
No, I agree that they have chosen a side and that they are political. I agree that pronoun use is political. I said that a MAGA hat wearing gamer would not be welcome, and would run into trouble. I don't think they would officially be thrown out for the reason of hat wearing, but more likely, they'd get into an argument with a con regular and they would be booted for being "disruptive" or similar.
Quote from: jhkim on July 07, 2021, 07:46:20 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 07, 2021, 07:08:33 PM
I live in the Pacific Northwest, Seattle area, and there's a constant undertone of progressive politics when I go out in public to game. My local gaming pub does the "We're inclusive!" rainbow flag thing, and there's plenty of cons that advertise their LGBTQ+ friendliness. At this point, I just roll my eyes and play my games.
It's not a deal breaker... yet. But I'm constantly reminded that there is a hegemony of thought here, and some animals are more equal than others.
Thanks, Ratman. That sounds similar to the SF Bay Area. I also go to AmberCon Northwest in Portland, which is actually a little less explicitly progressive than the local Bay area conventions, but still has progressive influence and progressive-leaning attendees. The most left-leaning convention I've been to is probably Big Bad Con.
The general point here is that I have nothing against apolitical games - but I also have nothing against liberal-theme games or conservative-themed games. I don't think anyone is changing their politics over the games they play - they are just selecting games that fit their politics. A lot of people on both sides believe that the games of the opposing side need to get stamped out - I think that's futile.
With conventions, I welcome people running different conventions. I don't think there's a perfect solution where all the liberal Seattle-area gamers are happy and all the conservative gamers are also equally happy. There will be lots of little choices that each side will differ on. There can be centrist cons, or conservative cons, or liberal cons - but I don't think there's a con that everyone will be happy with. Most posters here probably don't care about whether the progressive Seattle crowd are happy, and that's fine -- run cons to please the people you care about.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 07, 2021, 05:48:06 PM
Those conventions ARE political, they have clearly choosen a side and are busy telling everybody which side that is. By using said pronoun ribbons or whatever.
But you are telling us they wouldn't throw out a MAGA hat wearing gamer? Come on, not even you believe what you wrote.
No, I agree that they have chosen a side and that they are political. I agree that pronoun use is political. I said that a MAGA hat wearing gamer would not be welcome, and would run into trouble. I don't think they would officially be thrown out for the reason of hat wearing, but more likely, they'd get into an argument with a con regular and they would be booted for being "disruptive" or similar.
Right, they would make up a bullshit "reason" to throw him out. But we all know WHY would they throw him out.
Quote from: amacris on July 05, 2021, 03:20:22 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 05, 2021, 02:44:30 PM
The mistake you make is thinking they have a conscience. Hypocrisy isn't a bug in their ideology, its a FEATURE. They are the Anointed so they don't have to abide by the same standards as the "Oppressors." Their proof that Gygax is a monster who needs to die is that someone else on Twitter said he was; no further proof needed.
I concur with Chris24601's thoughts on SJWs and would expand even further. They do not even acknowledge their hypocrisy. You have to read Herbert Marcuse's "Repressive Tolerance" to understand the full depth of their ideology. I've blogged about it extensively elsewhere with point by point elaborations; here, let's just summarize the doctrine of repressive tolerance in plain English:
1. Tolerance is only to be extended to truth.
2. Only leftism is objectively true, and anything other than leftism is not.
3. Therefore tolerance is only to be extended to leftism.
4. Anyone who disagrees with this has been indoctrinated by the right wing. To the extent that the majority of people disagree, that means the majority of people are indoctrinated.
5. Since most people are indoctrinated, leftists must break the indoctrination so that they can grasp the truth of leftism.
6. To break the indoctrination, leftists must promote left-wing thought and suppress right-wing thought.
7. Promoting left-wing thought is accomplished by changing "established universes of meaning" and actively presenting "information slanted in the opposite direction," e.g. by political correctness and propaganda.
8. Suppressing right-wing thought is accomplished by withdrawing the freedom of speech, press, and assembly for anyone who disagrees with leftists on race, gender, religion, armament, public services, social security, or healthcare, e.g. deplatforming us entirely.
9. If necessary to withdraw these freedoms, leftists must operate at such scale that the actions cease to be non-violent and become revolutionary violence.
10. Leftists who use revolutionary violence are not to be condemned by any leftists.
I could, if you want, back up each and every bullet point above with paragraph-length quotes by Herbert Marcuse and other New Leftists; but it's painful to read. In brief, the doctrine holds that left-wing speech, assembly and action must be praised and promoted; while right-wing speech, assembly, and action must be condemned, suppressed, and punished. It's not hypocrisy when they do that. It's their stated manifesto, with an elaborate ideological edifice to justify it.
Marcuse's take is a good start, but is not complete or comprehensive.
You need two more concepts for it all to click into place.
The first is Carl Schmidt's Friend/Enemy Distinction:
"The specific political distinction to which political actions and motives can be reduced is that between friend and enemy."The second is what defines a religion. This comes from my editor (https://web.archive.org/web/20210305223226/https://www.brianniemeier.com/2019/06/a-tale-of-two-cults.html), Brian Niemeier, who is a trained theologian in addition to an Dragon Award winner:
First, let's define our terms. To qualify as a religion, a group must have three elements:
- Cult: a consistent body of rituals for public worship
- Code: a set of moral rules
- Creed: a canon of shared myths that defines a shared identity
I'll add a further criterion introduced by reader D.J. Schreffler. A religion offers adherents explanations for their past, present, and future.
- The origin story--this is part of the creed.
- Ritual laws for the here and now--see cult and creed above.
- Eschatology--the final chapter of the creed.
That is a good list to put in parallel to Marcuse's Repressive Tolerance quality list because
it exposes Wokeness as a competing religion, and for our purposes what we need to observe is how the SJWs steal the Christian patrimony of moral authority to use for its own cult practices and thus to power their own push to seize and hold every last organ of cultural--and thus political--influence and power.
You want to know why you can't nail them for hypocrisy? Because you can't be a hypocrite to Enemies, and the Cult defines who is Friend and whom is Enemy. You want to know why they give no fucks about your pushbacks? Because you are a heretic and thus deserve to be crushed until you either convert or die. (You can see this happen to every Leonard that turns his coat against us.) You want to know why anti-SJW efforts heretofore are ineffective unless they directly attack their moral authority? This is why.
And if that's a big mindfuck for you, then you've got a much wilder ride ahead of you. For now, this will do. Grok Schmidt and how religions work and you'll go a lot further in dealing with the Death Cult.
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker on July 07, 2021, 09:22:37 PM
You want to know why you can't nail them for hypocrisy? Because you can't be a hypocrite to Enemies, and the Cult defines who is Friend and whom is Enemy. You want to know why they give no fucks about your pushbacks? Because you are a heretic and thus deserve to be crushed until you either convert or die. (You can see this happen to every Leonard that turns his coat against us.) You want to know why anti-SJW efforts heretofore are ineffective unless they directly attack their moral authority? This is why.
And if that's a big mindfuck for you, then you've got a much wilder ride ahead of you. For now, this will do. Grok Schmidt and how religions work and you'll go a lot further in dealing with the Death Cult.
So what do we do about it?
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 07, 2021, 09:45:59 PM
So what do we do about it?
Not that guy, but a step 1 would be to reject tenants of their religeon. Lots of people have been brainwashed into accepting their ideas because they piggyback on better ones.
An example I point to is diversity. Reject it as a part of morality. If you accept that diversity is a virtue in it of itself, then anything done in its name is good.
Diversity is a nuetral trait like something being red or green. Sometimes good, sometimes bad.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 07, 2021, 10:55:10 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 07, 2021, 09:45:59 PM
So what do we do about it?
Not that guy, but a step 1 would be to reject tenants of their religeon. Lots of people have been brainwashed into accepting their ideas because they piggyback on better ones.
An example I point to is diversity. Reject it as a part of morality. If you accept that diversity is a virtue in it of itself, then anything done in its name is good.
Diversity is a neutral trait like something being red or green. Sometimes good, sometimes bad.
You're on the right track.
Wokeism--the Death Cult--is, specifically, a Christian Heresy. This is why it arises in what was Christendom, and can only be spread via piggybacking off memes of a Christian root (i.e. Western Liberalism). This is why it has particular animus for Christianity while making common cause with Islam and not giving two shits about Judaism or any other religion.
Listen to the language--the Rhetoric--they use. It's religious in its tone and presumes authority in its speech, authority that they seek to translate into power. No amount of facts or logic apply here; they are doubly-immune, first because it is not a rational argument and second because opposing them marks you as Enemy to them so they receive dispensation to prey upon you- and often with Establishment approval due to fellow travelers being in control of the institutions. (e.g. the difference between Antifa/BLM's legal issues and those of their targets).
You have to directly attack that authority. Arguing the tenants of their religion is pointless; you're an Enemy so you don't get a say. Go for the throat, and
demand that they confess--in the religious sense foremost--that Jesus Christ is Lord and God raised Him from the dead. Do not stop until they confess or they retreat; if they try the false confession game GO HAM and post that confession EVERYWHERE THEIR PALS WILL SEE IT.
Remember Friend/Enemy? Remember this being a religion? Guess what
confessing to the Enemy religion does?
EVERY SINGLE TIME this happens, they freak out and RUN. Online it's "Fuck this, Block/Protect/Hide" and NEVER do you see them or engage with them again and in meatspace they just LEAVE if they can't cow you into submission. No amount of Muh Atheism works. No non-Christian religions work. Just standing firm, calming repeating the demand until it is met, is sufficient to make them cave.
It IS weird, but it works, and that is why I tell you now that you cannot fight a false religion other than with a true one. You're not Enlightening your way out of this.
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker on July 08, 2021, 02:24:49 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 07, 2021, 10:55:10 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 07, 2021, 09:45:59 PM
So what do we do about it?
Not that guy, but a step 1 would be to reject tenants of their religeon. Lots of people have been brainwashed into accepting their ideas because they piggyback on better ones.
An example I point to is diversity. Reject it as a part of morality. If you accept that diversity is a virtue in it of itself, then anything done in its name is good.
Diversity is a neutral trait like something being red or green. Sometimes good, sometimes bad.
You're on the right track.
Wokeism--the Death Cult--is, specifically, a Christian Heresy. This is why it arises in what was Christendom, and can only be spread via piggybacking off memes of a Christian root (i.e. Western Liberalism). This is why it has particular animus for Christianity while making common cause with Islam and not giving two shits about Judaism or any other religion.
Listen to the language--the Rhetoric--they use. It's religious in its tone and presumes authority in its speech, authority that they seek to translate into power. No amount of facts or logic apply here; they are doubly-immune, first because it is not a rational argument and second because opposing them marks you as Enemy to them so they receive dispensation to prey upon you- and often with Establishment approval due to fellow travelers being in control of the institutions. (e.g. the difference between Antifa/BLM's legal issues and those of their targets).
You have to directly attack that authority. Arguing the tenants of their religion is pointless; you're an Enemy so you don't get a say. Go for the throat, and demand that they confess--in the religious sense foremost--that Jesus Christ is Lord and God raised Him from the dead. Do not stop until they confess or they retreat; if they try the false confession game GO HAM and post that confession EVERYWHERE THEIR PALS WILL SEE IT.
Remember Friend/Enemy? Remember this being a religion? Guess what confessing to the Enemy religion does?
EVERY SINGLE TIME this happens, they freak out and RUN. Online it's "Fuck this, Block/Protect/Hide" and NEVER do you see them or engage with them again and in meatspace they just LEAVE if they can't cow you into submission. No amount of Muh Atheism works. No non-Christian religions work. Just standing firm, calming repeating the demand until it is met, is sufficient to make them cave.
It IS weird, but it works, and that is why I tell you now that you cannot fight a false religion other than with a true one. You're not Enlightening your way out of this.
Greetings!
Amen, Bradford C. Walker!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker on July 08, 2021, 02:24:49 AM
...
It IS weird, but it works, and that is why I tell you now that you cannot fight a false religion other than with a true one. You're not Enlightening your way out of this.
And this is the truth that a lot are still in denial of, even on this board.
So-called 'enlightenment thinking', 'classical liberalism', 'social libertarianism', or just flat out libertarianism and atheism, are only viable positions in a functional civilization so long as they are able to piggyback on a culture that has been saturated with 2000 years of Christian Morality.
As the west has gone away from Christian morality, and has adopted the conflict theory moral standard of determining who is engaging in right and wrong behavior by first determining who is the oppressed vs. the oppressor; all those other post enlightenment Laissez-faire moral stances start to fall apart.
Because they are not based on civilization building morality. They just rode in on the coattails of Western Christian civilizations relative tolerance for sinners who kept to themselves and otherwise didn't rock the boat.
Although I don't care if I game with gay players as I am not there to argue, I am there to game; If they really want to know what I think on a particular issue - I'll tell them. And if it blows up the game, it blows it up.
100% guaranteed to blow it up...
But SJW's don't extend the other side even that curtesy. They are incapable of 'live and let live'.
And you see this in modern gaming, any wrongthink is ruthlessly punished.
NuTSR's twitter was absolutely hounded for their stance on LGBTQP "rights".
Over at ENworld as much as Morris loves to lock down threads when they get "controversial". Under the guise of 'industry news' he has been 'reporting' on every tiny NuTSR faux pas he could find; doing his part to throw as much gasoline on the fire to burn what was perceived by them as a grognard incursion to the ground.
They don't care about how 'inclusive' you are or that you 'don't take sides'. All the fence sitters are gonna get it right up the middle from the SJW death cult the same as everyone else that disagrees with them.
Now if someone has deepish pockets there is an opportunity here.
Both "TSR" trademark holders have changed their names because of the recent Fredo Gygax dumpster fire.
I'd imagine all the TSR trademarks would be for sale at this point...
Just remember it was Christian goons who wanted to burn your D&D books in the 80's.
I keep seeing traps that are set for the un-woke. Usually it will be some pro SJW, pro socialist message, or some anti Capaitalist message that calls anyone who wants to keep what they earn "evil". Anti-Christian messages that tell you that if you do good deeds out of fear of going to Hell, that you aren't really good. Or some message a out how gays have been persecuted since the beginning of time, by whatever group you happen to identify with.
To debate with these people is folly. It is what they want. They want you to expose yourself. They will hit you with every logical fallacy, and narcissist trick. They will gang up on you, call you an "-ist", or a "-phobe", they will cut and paste parts of what you say and show the entire world how evil you are. And if you apologize, they will smell blood, and the feeding frenzy begins.
We keep seeing this over and over. We have to stop falling into the trap. We have to stop taking the bait. We have to stop fighting them on their own turf.
Someone said earlier that they are "eating their own" now. Heck, Rheyden called Joe Biden right wing. If that's not eating your own, I don't know what is.
A place like this, gives us a fair chance, because we have the numbers. But we all know that they could sign up with fake accounts and swarm us. And because we are predisposed to love virtue, truth, and reason, we always cave then they cry oppression.
I am going to show you something that, if one of us said it on any other thread, would be an instant ban:
QuoteHere is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot
Switch the word "republican" with any other group and there would be outrage. Yet we just bend over and take it.
And just so I don't get a warning for posting non-gaming related matereal: RPG gaming groups have always been inclusive because we were persecuted. We were bullied, beat up, insulted, derided by public figures and politicians. So when people of a certain bend start gaslighting us and saying we were "-ist", "-phobic", gate-keepers, I just laugh and shake my head. I am tired of falling into the trap.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 08, 2021, 05:24:24 AM
Just remember it was Christian goons who wanted to burn your D&D books in the 80's.
Nope, sorry...
It was neurotic mothers looking for something to blame for their bad parenting, and a few theological nobody hucksters trying to cash in on a media fueled ratings grab frenzy.
Why were a bunch of theological nobody hucksters given a so much media airtime?
Why were a bunch of no-names with little following outside their local congregations given a national microphone?
No mainstream or world wide Christian Church put out any official statements about "D&D being the devil".
How come the media at the time driving the "Christians say D&D is the devil" narrative never went to the head of any world wide mainstream Christian Church and asked for an official statement on the issue?
Because they knew the answer would go against with their "look at the crazy Christians" narrative that they were establishing. And they so love to conflate the fringe churchians, and the theological zero's of Christianity with every practicing Christian in America.
And apparently it's worked...
I was playing games during the whole so-called "panic" I'm a member of one of the most conservative mainstream Christian Faiths in the US and world wide.
My Church's official stance on D&D? Absolutely nothing. It is a non issue. Never even brought up.
Now did some smaller loosely affiliated churches buy into the media hysteria? Yes. I wouldn't doubt that maybe even some local congregations of a mainstream church may have lost their damn minds.
So yeah, sucks for the guys who had to live with the actions of gullible parents and pastors with their mail-order preaching certificates who bought into the hysteria. And who made themselves feel good by hating on D&D instead of dealing with their own issues...
But let's label the churchian goons for what they really were, and in some cases still are: Idiots.
Not mainstream Christianity.
Don't buy into the media's Black Legend.
Quote from: Ocule on July 03, 2021, 11:07:15 AMUsually i'll use logic and reason, other times i'll use sarcasm and mockery
Sarcasm and mockery is always best. It's important to let them know they are not welcome.
Quoteit always ends the same. A banning from whatever website or platform it's being discussed on. Normally I wouldn't give a flying rats ass about being banned from a politically charged cesspool, but i'm starting to despair as one community after another falls to this cult.
Remember that the only roleplaying they do is pretending to be gamers. So the end result of this is that their community becomes a collection of SJWs who are not interested in gaming, only in policing gaming - but by booting out all the people who actually game, they now have nothing to actually police except one another's speech.
They are irrelevant to the game tables of the world. If you have an open game table and speak to any of them about gaming forums, not one in ten of them will be even vaguely aware of all this bullshit and drama.
Thus, the only proper response is sarcasm and mockery.
I agree with many points about how the enlightenment changed things and the nature of the religousness of the sjw movement, but where it argues its a literal actual desth cult is when it descends into self serving hyperbole and hysteria.
Edit: also believing that you beat sjws by making them confess to jesus is also laughable. And Im a guy pro religion.
Quote from: Jaeger on July 07, 2021, 04:07:17 PM
How do we defeat the SJW's?
Venger was right on this point:
We need to build our own Kingdoms.
The apolitical "gaming is for everyone" stance is not for the SJW's, it is for the normies.
We need outreach to show people that there are other ways to play "D&D", and to bring them into the fold.
Maybe even have them play non-fantasy games too...
Because ultimately, tenbones is right:
Quote from: tenbones on July 03, 2021, 03:23:26 PM
...
I would add a necessary addendum to this: We need to reach out and bring new people into the fold. Without outreach this is plan of attrition where we get ground down. If we bring new players into our midsts... then we have the advantage. Our GM's are better. Our games are better. The best way to serve ourselves and our aims is to take their players from them and show them.
Remember - WE have been here longer than them. They own the name. We own the spirit.
These people are riding high on a pop-culture wave of popularity that they had nothing to do with. 5e had silly lucky timing, and they are acting like it will go on forever.
It will not.
WOTC will fuck it up.
And if we grow enough, someone on our side will be in a position to be the next pathfinder to WOTC's 6e woke abortion.
That is the goal. But make no mistake; it is one tall fucking order.
I'm starting another thread to explore this avenue of thinking with the bolded sentence the focus.
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/bastions-of-gaming/
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 08, 2021, 08:24:55 AM
Edit: also believing that you beat sjws by making them confess to jesus is also laughable. And Im a guy pro religion.
Perhaps, but I don't think starting each game session with a prayer of exorcism over any of the Woke there would be a bad idea either.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 08, 2021, 09:10:51 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 08, 2021, 08:24:55 AM
Edit: also believing that you beat sjws by making them confess to jesus is also laughable. And Im a guy pro religion.
Perhaps, but I don't think starting each game session with a prayer of exorcism over any of the Woke there would be a bad idea either.
Don't look to God to solve this mess for you.
Free will is a bitch.
Quote from: Jaeger on July 08, 2021, 06:29:16 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 08, 2021, 05:24:24 AM
Just remember it was Christian goons who wanted to burn your D&D books in the 80's.
Nope, sorry...
It was neurotic mothers looking for something to blame for their bad parenting, and a few theological nobody hucksters trying to cash in on a media fueled ratings grab frenzy.
Why were a bunch of theological nobody hucksters given a so much media airtime?
Why were a bunch of no-names with little following outside their local congregations given a national microphone?
No mainstream or world wide Christian Church put out any official statements about "D&D being the devil".
How come the media at the time driving the "Christians say D&D is the devil" narrative never went to the head of any world wide mainstream Christian Church and asked for an official statement on the issue?
Because they knew the answer would go against with their "look at the crazy Christians" narrative that they were establishing. And they so love to conflate the fringe churchians, and the theological zero's of Christianity with every practicing Christian in America.
And apparently it's worked...
I was playing games during the whole so-called "panic" I'm a member of one of the most conservative mainstream Christian Faiths in the US and world wide.
My Church's official stance on D&D? Absolutely nothing. It is a non issue. Never even brought up.
Now did some smaller loosely affiliated churches buy into the media hysteria? Yes. I wouldn't doubt that maybe even some local congregations of a mainstream church may have lost their damn minds.
So yeah, sucks for the guys who had to live with the actions of gullible parents and pastors with their mail-order preaching certificates who bought into the hysteria. And who made themselves feel good by hating on D&D instead of dealing with their own issues...
But let's label the churchian goons for what they really were, and in some cases still are: Idiots.
Not mainstream Christianity.
Don't buy into the media's Black Legend.
I didn't say mainstream Christianity. I'm perfectly aware that it was a small but vocal fraction of Christians who ginned up the outrage. Just like the SJW cult we've got now, a few vocal assholes set the tone, and everyone else either falls in line or stays silent and allows the insanity to happen, hoping it will pass them over.
And it wasn't just some nerds playing D&D in the basement who were targeted. That was part of the crazy Satanic Panic phenomenon.
I think I've come a long way from my anti-theist days, and I agree that without religion, a lot of people will simply make up their own wonky secular religions, but Christianity itself is vulnerable, maybe especially vulnerable, to the same SJW mentality.
ok well, just do I am honest with at least myself.
I just had a full blown argument with several of my friends who are also Christian and out of five of us there yelling only two of us would want to attend a D&D convention if we somehow knew ahead of time we would be playing with anyone from the LGBTQ+ community.
Frankly, am shocked. I was telling them about this thread and how fucking ridicules it was when things took a turn I didn't expect.
I'm sad.
Quote from: Gameogre on July 08, 2021, 03:49:34 PM
ok well, just do I am honest with at least myself.
I just had a full blown argument with several of my friends who are also Christian and out of five of us there yelling only two of us would want to attend a D&D convention if we somehow knew ahead of time we would be playing with anyone from the LGBTQ+ community.
Frankly, am shocked. I was telling them about this thread and how fucking ridicules it was when things took a turn I didn't expect.
I'm sad.
Is it because they don't want to associate with gay people in general, or people who identify with the LGBTQ+ community?
Quote from: Gameogre on July 08, 2021, 03:49:34 PM
ok well, just do I am honest with at least myself.
Intelectual honesty and self awareness is key to a happy life. It can be sad at times, but self delusion is worse.
The Age of Enlightenment and the idea of inalienable human rights is the ONLY reason why we have a valid position for defeating the SJWs with anything other than a justification based on violence.
The alternative is either one side slaughters the other in killing fields, or the other side burns the first alive at the stake (or if you want to be more modern about it, helicopter rides).
Pre-Enlightenment Christianity and Foucaultian Postmodernism (SJWs) have the same fundamental ideological notion: MIGHT MAKES RIGHT.
The only difference is Christianity think it's "God's Might" that makes them right. While SJWs think it's their superior semantic ability to develop a more powerful narrative.
The Christians do sound a little less narcissistic at least, but it only goes so far, since as a rule whatever God hates and wants destroyed happens by some miracle to be exactly what they personally hate and want destroyed! Funny how that works out.
Quote from: Gameogre on July 08, 2021, 03:49:34 PM
I just had a full blown argument with several of my friends who are also Christian and out of five of us there yelling only two of us would want to attend a D&D convention if we somehow knew ahead of time we would be playing with anyone from the LGBTQ+ community.
How odd. It's a
game session. What does anyone's gender or sexuality matter? Were they planning on trying to pick someone up for a quickie in the toilets?
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on July 08, 2021, 09:19:44 PM
Quote from: Gameogre on July 08, 2021, 03:49:34 PM
I just had a full blown argument with several of my friends who are also Christian and out of five of us there yelling only two of us would want to attend a D&D convention if we somehow knew ahead of time we would be playing with anyone from the LGBTQ+ community.
How odd. It's a game session. What does anyone's gender or sexuality matter? Were they planning on trying to pick someone up for a quickie in the toilets?
Because they're like vegans, at this point. It's all they can talk about, and they inject their orientation into everything, regardless of how appropriate.
Quote from: GnomeWorks on July 08, 2021, 10:15:33 PM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on July 08, 2021, 09:19:44 PM
Quote from: Gameogre on July 08, 2021, 03:49:34 PM
I just had a full blown argument with several of my friends who are also Christian and out of five of us there yelling only two of us would want to attend a D&D convention if we somehow knew ahead of time we would be playing with anyone from the LGBTQ+ community.
How odd. It's a game session. What does anyone's gender or sexuality matter? Were they planning on trying to pick someone up for a quickie in the toilets?
Because they're like vegans, at this point. It's all they can talk about, and they inject their orientation into everything, regardless of how appropriate.
Did you know one can be vegan and not tell anyone about it?
It's a shocking revelation.
That is not my experience of gay and transgender people.
That is my experience of Social Justice Warriors. But there is only a tiny overlap between the three groups, most SJWs are very much middle class, whitebread and straight.
A while back here there was a thread talking about Pendragon, and someone mentioned playing it for ten years. Someone asked him, how did you go with the religious themes? He said fine, nobody seemed bothered. He was asked about his players' religions. He said, "I don't know."
"How can you play with someone for ten years and not know their religion?"
"We're British."
Be British.
Quote from: Gameogre on July 08, 2021, 03:49:34 PM
ok well, just do I am honest with at least myself.
I just had a full blown argument with several of my friends who are also Christian and out of five of us there yelling only two of us would want to attend a D&D convention if we somehow knew ahead of time we would be playing with anyone from the LGBTQ+ community.
Frankly, am shocked. I was telling them about this thread and how fucking ridicules it was when things took a turn I didn't expect.
I'm sad.
Hey, Gameogre. Sorry to hear that. When I talked to my local Pentecostals, they were very surprised that another Christian would be in support of gay marriage. Despite (or perhaps because of) lots of communication technology, I think people today increasingly are only contacting others of similar views.
I've been trying to think of more ways to do outreach and connect with different communities at my church. We had a service in the spring when a conservative Christian speaker talked - he had become friend with one of our congregation members through Braver Angels ( https://braverangels.org/ ).
Yeah it really was not a pleasant debate.
There point was that if they had this magical power to foretell the future they wouldn't want to play with anyone from the LGBTQ+ community the same way they wouldn't want to play with anyone else who was sinning. Like a man who was cheating on his wife, alcoholic, drug addict, athiest ect.. That you are supposed to hold people accountable for their actions and they just would not be comfortable and able to relax under those conditions.
Then I'm afraid it got rather heated as both sides quoted bible stricture to support their opinions. Because we are all friends we knew stuff about each other that made holding those views rather hypocritical and eventually those facts got thrown around and people got more angry.
After that it kinda all just fell apart. I'm afraid I didn't handle it very well, it was just so unexpected and disorienting. These are people I have known for years and the some of the stuff they were saying just were so wrong and frankly seemed like false characters like holding views I would expect SJW's to try to push that Christians held in order to paint us in a bad light. They fact that they were actually saying these things ...ugg well shit.
So it's just a mess.
I guess they're not too fond of that "judge not, that ye be judged" thing?
Or "love one another"?
Greetings!
There are a variety of social situations where a Christian should exercise *Discernment*. Going to the local game store or a game convention to game, it should be expected that a gamer may encounter all flavours of freaks and weirdos. To one's reasonable ability, just get the game going and have fun. It is not the time or place to wade into a huge political debate--or a theological debate or sermon. Similarly, unless a Christian works at a specifically Christian business, it is common to work with all kinds of different people--different races, different politics, and different religions. I don't know of many businesses that tend to approve of engaging fellow co-workers and colleagues in political or religious debates. Likewise, when a person is attending some kind of school or university, it is best to keep the political and religious commentary to a minimum. Remember the main purpose that you are there for. The same thing applies when gaming in a public venue. It really is that simple.
At your own home, the family, a close friend--of course, it is entirely understandable that a person would want to curate who they let into their group, and into their private home. That shouldn't likewise be a problem to figure out. Invite the kinds of people you want to play with at home, and don't invite people that you don't want to associate with on a long-term basis in such a personal environment. Problem solved. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 08, 2021, 03:36:26 PM
...
I didn't say mainstream Christianity. I'm perfectly aware that it was a small but vocal fraction of Christians who ginned up the outrage. ...
Then please don't say "Christian goons" then.
Because when people say "Christian Goons' or refer to the "anti-D&D Christian movement" they rarely give the qualifier of: "it was a small but vocal fraction of Christians who ginned up the outrage."
Most who hear someone say 'Christian goons' or 'Christians went after D&D' conflate it to mean the person who is making the statement is referring to
all Christians. Because generally that is what the person who is making such statements is trying to do.
"Nutjobs" or "Churchians" or even "Evangelictards" are all worthy substitutes.
"That was part of the crazy Satanic Panic phenomenon." – My critiques still apply. Ginned up media hysteria giving
'no one could possibly buy this much publicity' airtime worth of national platforms to neurotic women and fringe churchians no one ever heard of before.
We need to stop spreading their propaganda for them.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 08, 2021, 03:36:26 PM
... but Christianity itself is vulnerable, maybe especially vulnerable, to the same SJW mentality.
Don't buy into the propaganda. If anything, Christians are generally one of the more resistant groups to SJW influencing. Because Christianity is not a Marxist movement.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 08, 2021, 05:46:27 PM
The Age of Enlightenment and the idea of inalienable human rights is the ONLY reason why we have a valid position for defeating the SJWs with anything other than a justification based on violence.
The idea of inalienable human rights didn't exactly pop into the Enlightenment philosophers heads out of nowhere. They were living in a culture infused with 1600 years or so of Christian morality, thought, ideals, and philosophy. During which the theology of natural law was written about by Christian philosophers such as Albert the Great, and Thomas Aquinas. In Paul's Epistle to the Romans, specifically 2:14–15 is universally acknowledged to be a commentary of even unbelievers being able to recognized within themselves the Moral laws of God, part of which is the sacredness of life.
The "enlightenment concepts" of inalienable human rights were already formed in Christian thought by the reformation. The so-called "contribution" to already existing ideals within Christian morality by enlightenment philosophers consisted largely of removing God from their moral equations.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 08, 2021, 05:46:27 PM
Pre-Enlightenment Christianity and Foucaultian Postmodernism (SJWs) have the same fundamental ideological notion: MIGHT MAKES RIGHT.
Pre-Enlightenment Christian philosophers and reformation theologists say No.
Most are familiar with the Christian prohibitions against murder, stealing, coveting, not bearing false witness, and a few more thou shalt not's...
The SJW's operate under no such prohibitions because they do not believe in objective morality of any kind.
Believing in the word and commandments of God; that there is a clear, unchanging, right and wrong moral code that you do your best to abide by for the good of your eternal soul is a very different thing than believing that forming the correct narrative is all you need to justify whatever you want to do to your enemies.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 08, 2021, 05:46:27 PM
The Christians do sound a little less narcissistic at least, but it only goes so far, since as a rule whatever God hates and wants destroyed happens by some miracle to be exactly what they personally hate and want destroyed! Funny how that works out.
More like:
As a rule, whatever men hate and want destroyed they happen by some miracle to be able to justify and rationalize hating and destroying what they want.
The ability of people to rationalize their bad behavior regardless of their professed belief systems knows no bounds. Using the bad behavior of people acting contrary to their faith to dismiss an entire belief system that is foundational to western civilization is a bit of an overreaction.
Enlightenment ideals were a major part of the French revolution and we all know what a bloody mess that turned into. Yet I don't see modern fans of enlightenment philosophy throwing the baby out with the bath water just yet. Funny how that works out.
Quote from: Jaeger on July 09, 2021, 02:50:05 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 08, 2021, 03:36:26 PM
...
I didn't say mainstream Christianity. I'm perfectly aware that it was a small but vocal fraction of Christians who ginned up the outrage. ...
Then please don't say "Christian goons" then.
No. Not all Christians are/were goons, but these were. I think that's a sufficient deliniation.
QuoteBecause when people say "Christian Goons' or refer to the "anti-D&D Christian movement" they rarely give the qualifier of: "it was a small but vocal fraction of Christians who ginned up the outrage."
And a slient majority of Christians that said nothing and let the goons drive the bus of their faith off a cliff.
QuoteMost who hear someone say 'Christian goons' or 'Christians went after D&D' conflate it to mean the person who is making the statement is referring to all Christians. Because generally that is what the person who is making such statements is trying to do.
"Nutjobs" or "Churchians" or even "Evangelictards" are all worthy substitutes.
"That was part of the crazy Satanic Panic phenomenon." – My critiques still apply. Ginned up media hysteria giving 'no one could possibly buy this much publicity' airtime worth of national platforms to neurotic women and fringe churchians no one ever heard of before.
We need to stop spreading their propaganda for them.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 08, 2021, 03:36:26 PM
... but Christianity itself is vulnerable, maybe especially vulnerable, to the same SJW mentality.
Don't buy into the propaganda. If anything, Christians are generally one of the more resistant groups to SJW influencing. Because Christianity is not a Marxist movement.
https://religionnews.com/2021/05/18/james-lindsay-southern-baptists-crt-al-mohler-hoax-new-discourses-beth-moorerace-ofallon/
Quote from: Jaeger on July 09, 2021, 02:50:05 PM
Then please don't say "Christian goons" then.
Because when people say "Christian Goons' or refer to the "anti-D&D Christian movement" they rarely give the qualifier of: "it was a small but vocal fraction of Christians who ginned up the outrage."
Most who hear someone say 'Christian goons' or 'Christians went after D&D' conflate it to mean the person who is making the statement is referring to all Christians. Because generally that is what the person who is making such statements is trying to do.
You're railing against propaganda while promoting propaganda in your favor. Ratman's statement was clear and precise. You're reading things into it that aren't there, demanding unnecessary qualifiers, and reacting against very mild slurs because they're being applied to a subset of a group to which you belong. None of those are valid complaints.
Quote from: Gameogre on July 09, 2021, 03:28:59 AM
There point was that if they had this magical power to foretell the future they wouldn't want to play with anyone from the LGBTQ+ community the same way they wouldn't want to play with anyone else who was sinning. Like a man who was cheating on his wife, alcoholic, drug addict, athiest ect.. That you are supposed to hold people accountable for their actions and they just would not be comfortable and able to relax under those conditions.
Then I'm afraid it got rather heated as both sides quoted bible stricture to support their opinions. Because we are all friends we knew stuff about each other that made holding those views rather hypocritical and eventually those facts got thrown around and people got more angry.
Quote from: SHARK on July 09, 2021, 04:45:37 AM
There are a variety of social situations where a Christian should exercise *Discernment*. Going to the local game store or a game convention to game, it should be expected that a gamer may encounter all flavours of freaks and weirdos. To one's reasonable ability, just get the game going and have fun. It is not the time or place to wade into a huge political debate--or a theological debate or sermon.
As I read it, the problem among Gameogre's friends wasn't that they couldn't help preaching to the people they saw as sinners - it was that they couldn't relax around them. That sounds similar to a brand of elitism that I've seen in some churches - sometimes even among Unitarian Universalists, who are non-denominational and big on non-judgement. I think it is a feature of psychology some people really want to be part of an "in-group", and that can be stronger than religious values.
I think the most Christian thing to do is to go among sinners and demonstrate to them your values. Seeing Christians live and demonstrate their values is an example to non-Christians - even if it's just how we have fun and be creative. Doing this well spreads the faith without preaching. But there is a mindset to be safe and reassured in one's in-group, and feel superior to sinners rather than helping them.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on July 08, 2021, 09:19:44 PM
Quote from: Gameogre on July 08, 2021, 03:49:34 PM
I just had a full blown argument with several of my friends who are also Christian and out of five of us there yelling only two of us would want to attend a D&D convention if we somehow knew ahead of time we would be playing with anyone from the LGBTQ+ community.
How odd. It's a game session. What does anyone's gender or sexuality matter? Were they planning on trying to pick someone up for a quickie in the toilets?
From Gameogre's follow up, it sounds like the topic came up while BSing about magic effects.
I dunno about anyone else, but my game time is never 100% game business. There's always some socializing and joking and catching up during a session. Plenty of opportunity for side topics to come up.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 09, 2021, 03:04:28 PM
No. Not all Christians are/were goons, but these were. I think that's a sufficient delineation.
I agree that it should be.
But that is typically not the intent most have when such terms are generally used together on most RPG boards.
I can't remember the last time I interacted with someone who delineated it out the way you did.
But then this is the RPGSite, all the other discussions I had were on other Forums, and the typical reply back I or anyone else inevitably got was:
"Well, my experience with Christians and D&D was X, and..*Insert tirade against Christianity here*...".So I'll readily admit to incorrectly interpreting your statement based on past experience with different people.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 09, 2021, 03:04:28 PM
And a slient majority of Christians that said nothing and let the goons drive the bus of their faith off a cliff.
Christians did write articles in defense of D&D. And these efforts are known.
But it was a different era then and it was virtually impossible to compete against the national media narrative.
And while a big deal for D&D players, it was a side show to the larger 'satanic panic' issue. Which for most of mainstream Christianity was largely a non-issue.
I can easily understand why the heads of major religions at the time took one look at the news coverage, went:
"That's so ridiculous, no one's going to believe these nutters.." and changed the channel.
Mistakes made and lessons learned.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 09, 2021, 03:04:28 PM
https://religionnews.com/2021/05/18/james-lindsay-southern-baptists-crt-al-mohler-hoax-new-discourses-beth-moorerace-ofallon/
I know of a bunch more examples myself.
Which is why I said Generally more resilient, not utterly immune.
Quote from: Pat on July 09, 2021, 03:07:17 PM
...
You're railing against propaganda while promoting propaganda in your favor. ...
His statement may have been clear to people on this board who were already familiar with his views on the subject.
When you go to other RPG forums and they get into the whole 'satanic panic' nonsense, they clearly use "Christian did X" along with their personal whipping boy stories to conflate their experience with Christianity in general. It is one of their favorite dead horses, although enough time has passed it comes up far less often than it used to.
So when you use the same wording as the outright haters, is sounds as if you are repeating their sentiments to those of us who have interacted with a lot of haters.
As to propaganda in my favor. Don't believe me. Research for yourself the individuals and their associations who made themselves into prominent "Christians" (and a lot of money) by pushing the
'D&D is the devil' panic button.
Quote from: Jaeger on July 09, 2021, 06:08:26 PM
His statement may have been clear to people on this board who were already familiar with his views on the subject.
When you go to other RPG forums and they get into the whole 'satanic panic' nonsense, they clearly use "Christian did X" along with their personal whipping boy stories to conflate their experience with Christianity in general. It is one of their favorite dead horses, although enough time has passed it comes up far less often than it used to.
So when you use the same wording as the outright haters, is sounds as if you are repeating their sentiments to those of us who have interacted with a lot of haters.
In today's world, I'm going to automatically throw out any argument based on dogwhistles.
I think we need to return to a world where people respond to each other based on the plain meaning of the words they use, instead of using social justice kabbalism to attack people for sending imaginary hidden messages.
Quote from: Jaeger on July 09, 2021, 06:08:26 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 09, 2021, 03:04:28 PM
No. Not all Christians are/were goons, but these were. I think that's a sufficient delineation.
I agree that it should be.
But that is typically not the intent most have when such terms are generally used together on most RPG boards.
I can't remember the last time I interacted with someone who delineated it out the way you did.
But then this is the RPGSite, all the other discussions I had were on other Forums, and the typical reply back I or anyone else inevitably got was: "Well, my experience with Christians and D&D was X, and..*Insert tirade against Christianity here*...".
So I'll readily admit to incorrectly interpreting your statement based on past experience with different people.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 09, 2021, 03:04:28 PM
And a slient majority of Christians that said nothing and let the goons drive the bus of their faith off a cliff.
Christians did write articles in defense of D&D. And these efforts are known.
But it was a different era then and it was virtually impossible to compete against the national media narrative.
And while a big deal for D&D players, it was a side show to the larger 'satanic panic' issue. Which for most of mainstream Christianity was largely a non-issue.
I can easily understand why the heads of major religions at the time took one look at the news coverage, went: "That's so ridiculous, no one's going to believe these nutters.." and changed the channel.
Mistakes made and lessons learned.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 09, 2021, 03:04:28 PM
https://religionnews.com/2021/05/18/james-lindsay-southern-baptists-crt-al-mohler-hoax-new-discourses-beth-moorerace-ofallon/
I know of a bunch more examples myself.
Which is why I said Generally more resilient, not utterly immune.
Quote from: Pat on July 09, 2021, 03:07:17 PM
...
You're railing against propaganda while promoting propaganda in your favor. ...
His statement may have been clear to people on this board who were already familiar with his views on the subject.
When you go to other RPG forums and they get into the whole 'satanic panic' nonsense, they clearly use "Christian did X" along with their personal whipping boy stories to conflate their experience with Christianity in general. It is one of their favorite dead horses, although enough time has passed it comes up far less often than it used to.
So when you use the same wording as the outright haters, is sounds as if you are repeating their sentiments to those of us who have interacted with a lot of haters.
As to propaganda in my favor. Don't believe me. Research for yourself the individuals and their associations who made themselves into prominent "Christians" (and a lot of money) by pushing the 'D&D is the devil' panic button.
I grew up in a poor little rural town in the southeast that is filled with several denominations of Christians. One of my friends was the son of a Baptist preacher. We spent many weekend evenings playing D&D in the basement of the church with his father's blessing. I can't speak for every church in my town back in those days, but this was my experience. In fact, the only time I ever saw evidence of the Satanic Panic was when a game store opened up in town and one, 1, preacher and a few of his followers protested the shop for its infernal nature. Most folks around town laughed about it and even made fun of the preacher. It's not all or nothing.
As far as I can tell, the Satanic Panic was almost entirely an American tradition.
My anecdotal evidence on the whole Satanic panic nonsense being neurotic mothers looking for something to blame is what happened with one of my friends. She found his D&D stuff, put it in a box and dragged the box and my friend to see our priest. She dropped the box in front of our extremely conservative and orthodox priest of the Roman Catholic Church and told him "This is my son's devil worship kit!"
Our priest took one look in the box, gave the box back to my friend, and then sat his mother down to explain what D&D actually was to her.
That was the extent of the "Satanic Panic" in my neck of the woods; one crazy mother who used the Boy Scouts for after school care (which is how we became friends) and was upset that we taught him how to play.
Quote from: Shasarak on July 09, 2021, 07:05:19 PM
As far as I can tell, the Satanic Panic was almost entirely an American tradition.
Being America, I was mostly exposed to the Satanic Panic here. But it was present in other western countries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse
Like most panics, there was a lot of noise about a few extreme cases, but it had very little or no effect on most. I do know kids (at the time) who had their books taken away, but they seemed to be a small minority.
The Satanic Panic myth is literally the Media whipping up a controversy and then wielding its power to humiliate Christians. Very much a "blaming the victim" in this case.
Quote from: Zelen on July 09, 2021, 09:28:00 PM
The Satanic Panic myth is literally the Media whipping up a controversy and then wielding its power to humiliate Christians. Very much a "blaming the victim" in this case.
I have a reply, but we're already going off topic, so I'll let it go for now.
Well now you've all slayed the Satanic Panic.
The SJW problem will be resolved while you're playing "Rainbow Brite the RPG" - in in the gulag with dice made from my bones.
Quote from: tenbones on July 10, 2021, 02:43:57 AM
Well now you've all slayed the Satanic Panic.
The SJW problem will be resolved while you're playing "Rainbow Brite the RPG" - in in the gulag with dice made from my bones.
They better roll me some crits. :D
Yeah the Satanic Panic was not the product of any denomination of Clergy from my memory. It was "Karen" and Jack Chick almost exclusively. Seems "karen" is here again with the SJW types, and there are 100 Jack Chick types as well (he had to work pretty hard at printing those little leaflets) thanks to the internet.
Quote from: tenbones on July 10, 2021, 02:43:57 AM
Well now you've all slayed the Satanic Panic.
The SJW problem will be resolved while you're playing "Rainbow Brite the RPG" - in in the gulag with dice made from my bones.
History is useful if you're taking the right lessons from it.
In this case the important lesson is that the people behind the attacks on traditional roleplaying are nowhere near a majority but a bunch of fringe Karens just like last time who amount to a fractional percent of the population with a disproportionately large megaphone granted it by the mainstream media of its day.
Another important lesson; just like last time the top dog choked at the onslaught and started making changes they thought would appease the Ur-Karens (ex. changing demons and devils into Ba'ator and T'nar'ri) and they're doing it again with the LGBTQWTFBBQ the modern Karens and their Twitter megaphone blasts out 24/7 as The Greater Good!
A final lesson; this was also when counterculture games like Vampire that didn't cow to the Ur-Karens exploded onto the scene and for a time managed to rival TSR's dominance of the market.
Today's counterculture is The Deplorables who oppose the Neo-Moral Majority (note... if you have to call yourself "the majority" you probably aren't) and that's where you're going to find both your market and setting themes.
For example; I bet a fresh take on Robin Hood (the real one who robbed the government and gave back to the taxpayers) would do gangbusters right now.
Quite a good idea, actually.
I'm wondering what you would do. Perhaps I'm not artist enough to think of it, but...
There seems to be a lack of real right-wing cultural product...the memes are pretty clever and mock the left, but I'm not seeing anything like Conan the Barbarian that sets off a bunch of imitators. The last really culturally conservative era I can think of was the 1980s.
You could rebrand, say, Sigmata as a fight against a communist rather than fascist government pretty easily, but I can't think of anything like Vampire that taps into an emerging subculture (in this case goth) and gets that sort of counterculture popularity. A lot of people (not even all on the right) are getting sick of 'woke'/PC, but I don't see much creative ferment yet.
Any suggestions?
The sjw problem is a cultural problem, not a symptom of pure karen-dom.
The SJWs greatest allies are those that say they are "well meaning just not executed well".
Until the cultural institutions of SJWs are rejected, they will keep influencing D&D
On counterculture stuff:
Low magic gun culture stuff. Or pulp adventure or noir.
Lone wolf heroes manly manning by their own rules.
I get the feeling the SJW issue is a front, a fake, that people are manipulating the movement from some unseen front.
Someone is playing chess on a board we can't see.
Too often the movement seems to gear up and head strait away in one direction then suddenly change and move in another direction running over it's own forces.
The goals of the movement are for sure not the ones stated. They clearly do not have the best interests of those they claim to represent at heart because there actions have so gravely negatively effected those very people.
I really do think forces are at work using the weakness in our culture to their best advantage.
Regardless of what side of the political isle you stand on surly you can see we as a people as FAR weaker than we were only a half decade ago. It's only getting worse. Imagine what shape we will be at in another half decade?
My Lutheran pastor when I was a kid frowned on D&D but he mostly thought we should go out for football and have a summer job and socialize instead. Also he thought it was expensive and prurient in a low rent sort of way. But there was no "Satan" or "magic" or "this could make them superstitious or vulnerable to cults" aspect. He saw it as a waste of time, and not developmental; he saw that it made kids bicker and thought we could probably find a better way to spend time and energy. We could go fishing or build bird houses and books shelves, etc. He never tried to take our stuff away or anything.
Oddly the guy who ran the hobby store where I bought most of my AD&D stuff and Ral Partha and Grenadier minis from felt the same way. He kept trying to interest me in planes, trains, and slot cars, and such. He hated to see me rooting around in that gaming ghetto. I was a nerd to other nerds. Bottom of the heap. LOL.
I guess we looked like the viral larping video to my pastor and hobby shop owner. " Fireball! Fireball! Fireball! Sleep!"
Meanwhile, in my corner of the world (the land of winter), the church are not just positive to it, but use it themselves to teach ethics and morals when it is time for confirmation of the youth. They arrange their own conventions and even distribute their own games. They have made about half a dozen games in various genres like fantasy, sci-fi, urban fantasy and historical. I think at least one is a original system while most is probably Basic Roleplaying.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 10, 2021, 12:52:39 PM
The sjw problem is a cultural problem, not a symptom of pure karen-dom.
The SJWs greatest allies are those that say they are "well meaning just not executed well".
Until the cultural institutions of SJWs are rejected, they will keep influencing D&D
I have zero problem with SJWs being "well executed" ;)
Quote from: Null42 on July 10, 2021, 12:26:52 PM
Quite a good idea, actually.
I'm wondering what you would do. Perhaps I'm not artist enough to think of it, but...
There seems to be a lack of real right-wing cultural product...the memes are pretty clever and mock the left, but I'm not seeing anything like Conan the Barbarian that sets off a bunch of imitators. The last really culturally conservative era I can think of was the 1980s.
You could rebrand, say, Sigmata as a fight against a communist rather than fascist government pretty easily, but I can't think of anything like Vampire that taps into an emerging subculture (in this case goth) and gets that sort of counterculture popularity. A lot of people (not even all on the right) are getting sick of 'woke'/PC, but I don't see much creative ferment yet.
Any suggestions?
Maybe a post apocalyptic game, where the "next deadly strain" of COVID actually kills off 70% of the worlds population. Alternately, the vaccine was in reality a form of population control, and 18 months after the majority of people were vaccinated, millions are inflicted with a prion disorder, AKA becoming zombies.
Well armed preppers who avoided the jab are the main survivors, and the goal is to survive.
Yes, derivative AF, but it would trigger the crazies on the left.
Especially if we make it a PbtA game, but grognard the crap out of it.
I haven't followed the whole thread, but one of the things I did when I started a new fantasy game- I just went with Ars Magica.
It's a known game, but it's set in 1220 A.D. There's nothing "woke" about 1220 A.D. Your character can be whatever he or she wants. The PC could be a hermaprodite half-faerie, I don't care. But the peasants and the nobility are going to do what they do, and react how they react. So your PC should be prepared for that. You came to MY game. But, when I advertised my game, no one who wasn't interested in magic, history, and/or both came to the table. Which is pretty much what I expected.
Before that I advertised and ran "Lamentations of the Flame Princess" which went on for 4 years. Which was ... pretty much just D&D with a horror edge. But anyone looking at those books was not going to come to my table and expect a "PC" game.
So just ditch D&D, play something else. There are a ton of games out there, and most people just want to play something. Don't worry about internet keyboard jockeys and play what you want. D&D/WotC is going to advertise and publish whatever seems to be the most "in" thing right now to avoid bad press and make money, and right now "woke" is "in", apparently.
Hell, I don't even disagree with a lot of woke things. Equal rights for all. Good. Fine. Great! I agree. But let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Quote from: zagreus on July 14, 2021, 09:15:56 AMSo just ditch D&D, play something else.
Yes. Attachment to brands is a weakness the woke exploit. Stop thinking brands are your friends.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 14, 2021, 11:17:12 AM
Quote from: zagreus on July 14, 2021, 09:15:56 AMSo just ditch D&D, play something else.
Yes. Attachment to brands is a weakness the woke exploit. Stop thinking brands are your friends.
Oh for sure, Though personally I tend to refer to the whole category of games as dungeons and dragons. Not so much a brand but referring to the origin of the rule set as a concept. I mean most of the osr doesn't have the dnd branding but you're still playing dnd. Might be a little or a lot modified but is still dnd. It's just exhausting changing games every time a company goes woke. And buying their stuff even if my home game doesn't enforce their bullshit is still supporting them. I was really hoping nu tsr wasn't just a cash grab, or isn't harassed and banned into oblivion just to have another company that isn't woke and is openly opposed to it.
I mean earlier in the thread someone mentioned making more original products and is a really good idea. If we can get our products out there, make our own communities and conventions it would really take the wind out of their sails and cripple their ability to financially ruin anyone who doesn't look like they're from Portland.
Quote from: zagreus on July 14, 2021, 09:15:56 AM
I haven't followed the whole thread, but one of the things I did when I started a new fantasy game- I just went with Ars Magica.
It's a known game, but it's set in 1220 A.D. There's nothing "woke" about 1220 A.D. Your character can be whatever he or she wants. The PC could be a hermaprodite half-faerie, I don't care. But the peasants and the nobility are going to do what they do, and react how they react. So your PC should be prepared for that. You came to MY game. But, when I advertised my game, no one who wasn't interested in magic, history, and/or both came to the table. Which is pretty much what I expected.
Before that I advertised and ran "Lamentations of the Flame Princess" which went on for 4 years. Which was ... pretty much just D&D with a horror edge. But anyone looking at those books was not going to come to my table and expect a "PC" game.
So just ditch D&D, play something else. There are a ton of games out there, and most people just want to play something. Don't worry about internet keyboard jockeys and play what you want. D&D/WotC is going to advertise and publish whatever seems to be the most "in" thing right now to avoid bad press and make money, and right now "woke" is "in", apparently.
Hell, I don't even disagree with a lot of woke things. Equal rights for all. Good. Fine. Great! I agree. But let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Yes. This is good advice.
It's not just the games however. By stepping outside D&D you are also stepping outside of fandom. People are deeply invested in D&D in the way they are deeply invested in Star Wars and it all becomes a fandom fight in which the powerless delude themselves they are otherwise.
No one is deeply invested in Ars Magica or Lamentations of the Flame Princess as a fandom. They just want to play a game. So you immediately improve the quality of your pool of potential players.
We need our own convention. It will be a lightning rod moment when it happens.
Make
Adventuring
Great
Again
Con
(still really loving that idea)
As for games, I think a "counter-culture game" is any game that doesn't stuff itself with SJW nonsense. AKA, pick up pretty much any game in the 80s and emulate its lack of idiocy. System and setting mean less for the game to be "counter-culture" than just making a game that's about the game, not some kind of virtue signal (toward either political end).
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2021, 07:15:35 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 03, 2021, 05:38:48 PM
We could restrict words too. Like if someone uses the word "Bigot", "racist", "ableist", "[whatever]phobe", in any sort of accusatory way, they could get banned for "inciting hatred" or some such.
You don't support free speech by restricting it.
Private websites aren't beholden to laws of free speech. Governments are.
I mean, even here, you agreed to abide by the rules, which restrict what you can say. It's not a free speech argument.
Quote from: pdboddy on July 15, 2021, 12:44:55 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2021, 07:15:35 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 03, 2021, 05:38:48 PM
We could restrict words too. Like if someone uses the word "Bigot", "racist", "ableist", "[whatever]phobe", in any sort of accusatory way, they could get banned for "inciting hatred" or some such.
You don't support free speech by restricting it.
Private websites aren't beholden to laws of free speech. Governments are.
I mean, even here, you agreed to abide by the rules, which restrict what you can say. It's not a free speech argument.
Free speech is a foundational principle of Western liberal thought, it's not defined by a law.
This site promotes itself as a site that values free speech. That has nothing to do with the law.
Quote from: Pat on July 15, 2021, 12:48:35 PM
Free speech is a foundational principle of Western liberal thought, it's not defined by a law.
This site promotes itself as a site that values free speech. That has nothing to do with the law.
I suppose you're right.
It's the high road being taken.
However, as it stands, taking the high road is currently a losing proposition.
Quote from: pdboddy on July 15, 2021, 01:02:12 PMHowever, as it stands, taking the high road is currently a losing proposition.
You can't beat SJWs at the low road.
Quote from: pdboddy on July 15, 2021, 01:02:12 PM
It's the high road being taken.
However, as it stands, taking the high road is currently a losing proposition.
Taking the high road on basic principles isn't about winning short-term tactical victories, but it is essential to winning the war.
There's some argument to be made that a cause needs both idealists to keep the them on track, and pragmatists who are willing to compromise in order to win many of the individual battles. Successful activism often seems structured that way.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 15, 2021, 02:03:11 PM
Quote from: pdboddy on July 15, 2021, 01:02:12 PMHowever, as it stands, taking the high road is currently a losing proposition.
You can't beat SJWs at the low road.
You can beat them at their own game, using their own logic. Every now and then, you have to do this.
Quote from: Pat on July 15, 2021, 02:08:10 PM
Quote from: pdboddy on July 15, 2021, 01:02:12 PM
It's the high road being taken.
However, as it stands, taking the high road is currently a losing proposition.
Taking the high road on basic principles isn't about winning short-term tactical victories, but it is essential to winning the war.
There's some argument to be made that a cause needs both idealists to keep the them on track, and pragmatists who are willing to compromise in order to win many of the individual battles. Successful activism often seems structured that way.
I think you need to win a few of the short-term tactical victories in order to win the long-term war.
Quote from: pdboddy on July 15, 2021, 02:21:15 PMYou can beat them at their own game, using their own logic. Every now and then, you have to do this.
You can't because their rules are designed to make them win, and their logic is alien and their own. They want you to play their game so bad because they only win by rigging.
SJWs fear a fair fight more then anything else.
Oh noes!! The Evul, Evul SJWs will not only ruin the hobby, but destroy civilization as well en route to bringing about the heat death of the universe! They're going to send their Lawful Good Squads to force you to play their way! They're going to ban everyone from even OWNING any game that doesn't have George Soros' personal signature on them! All their products will cost $66.60 apiece!
Help us, Obi-MAGA Kenobi! You're our only hope!
(https://i.imgur.com/Bg8rNKL.jpg)
You just put a whole lot of effort into a wet fart :/
Quote from: Ravenswing on July 17, 2021, 02:42:10 PM
Oh noes!! The Evul, Evul SJWs will not only ruin the hobby, but destroy civilization as well en route to bringing about the heat death of the universe! They're going to send their Lawful Good Squads to force you to play their way! They're going to ban everyone from even OWNING any game that doesn't have George Soros' personal signature on them! All their products will cost $66.60 apiece!
Help us, Obi-MAGA Kenobi! You're our only hope!
(https://i.imgur.com/Bg8rNKL.jpg)
What was the point of this post
Quote from: Ocule on July 17, 2021, 03:56:24 PM
Quote from: Ravenswing on July 17, 2021, 02:42:10 PM
Oh noes!! The Evul, Evul SJWs will not only ruin the hobby, but destroy civilization as well en route to bringing about the heat death of the universe! They're going to send their Lawful Good Squads to force you to play their way! They're going to ban everyone from even OWNING any game that doesn't have George Soros' personal signature on them! All their products will cost $66.60 apiece!
Help us, Obi-MAGA Kenobi! You're our only hope!
(https://i.imgur.com/Bg8rNKL.jpg)
What was the point of this post
My evaluation: The fact that most of the abhorrent and obnoxious behaviors in modern culture are coming from (or at least, being defended by) the left, leftists who are not totally encapsulated in their information bubble (like ones who post here), feel the need to cognitively dismiss the fact that this time it's "their" side who are the assholes. So they come up with a series of coping strategies. One of them is to try and show that the most extreme behaviors of the left (behaviors that, when done by the right in the past caused complete condemnation by those same leftists) are actually trivial and not a big deal. That way the leftists can dismiss the behavior without having to come to grips with the fact that many of the previous behaviors from their side that they thought were based on principle were, in fact, based on simple tactical self-interest (otherwise, how can the same people who championed free speech when they were the cultural outcasts totally reverse now that they control the media, etc.?). It's kind of sad, really...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 17, 2021, 04:17:54 PM
Quote from: Ocule on July 17, 2021, 03:56:24 PM
Quote from: Ravenswing on July 17, 2021, 02:42:10 PM
Oh noes!! The Evul, Evul SJWs will not only ruin the hobby, but destroy civilization as well en route to bringing about the heat death of the universe! They're going to send their Lawful Good Squads to force you to play their way! They're going to ban everyone from even OWNING any game that doesn't have George Soros' personal signature on them! All their products will cost $66.60 apiece!
Help us, Obi-MAGA Kenobi! You're our only hope!
(https://i.imgur.com/Bg8rNKL.jpg)
What was the point of this post
My evaluation: The fact that most of the abhorrent and obnoxious behaviors in modern culture are coming from (or at least, being defended by) the left, leftists who are not totally encapsulated in their information bubble (like ones who post here), feel the need to cognitively dismiss the fact that this time it's "their" side who are the assholes. So they come up with a series of coping strategies. One of them is to try and show that the most extreme behaviors of the left (behaviors that, when done by the right in the past caused complete condemnation by those same leftists) are actually trivial and not a big deal. That way the leftists can dismiss the behavior without having to come to grips with the fact that many of the previous behaviors from their side that they thought were based on principle were, in fact, based on simple tactical self-interest (otherwise, how can the same people who championed free speech when they were the cultural outcasts totally reverse now that they control the media, etc.?). It's kind of sad, really...
Greetings!
Yeah, Eirikrautha, the Leftists have a deep-seated mental illness that makes them all gibbering morons.
Just look at all of the absolute idiocy that SJW's are so desperate to pump into the gaming hobby? All of their ideas are divisive, moronic, and hate-filled, and seem to promote a constant obsession with subversion and degeneracy at every opportunity.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
So i guess we aren't supposed to complain or something. Oh well, I wouldn't want valuable emotional labor in the form of a hacked up meme go to waste.
Quote from: palaeomerus on July 17, 2021, 04:39:22 PM
So i guess we aren't supposed to complain or something. Oh well, I wouldn't want valuable emotional labor in the form of a hacked up meme go to waste.
You don't win a meme war with WORDS.
That guy dumped a meme and everybody flipped their lid. I consider that guy the winner in this encounter.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 17, 2021, 05:53:42 PM
Quote from: palaeomerus on July 17, 2021, 04:39:22 PM
So i guess we aren't supposed to complain or something. Oh well, I wouldn't want valuable emotional labor in the form of a hacked up meme go to waste.
You don't win a meme war with WORDS.
That guy dumped a meme and everybody flipped their lid. I consider that guy the winner in this encounter.
Absolutely.
It was an old meme and it was cringe but you root for who you want though. It might as well have been the Sea Lion meme. 2014ish
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 17, 2021, 05:53:42 PM
Quote from: palaeomerus on July 17, 2021, 04:39:22 PM
So i guess we aren't supposed to complain or something. Oh well, I wouldn't want valuable emotional labor in the form of a hacked up meme go to waste.
You don't win a meme war with WORDS.
That guy dumped a meme and everybody flipped their lid. I consider that guy the winner in this encounter.
5 replies to an old meme. War's over, the SJWs have won. ;)
#winning
BTW is Goodman Games SpaceCrawl any good? Been eyeing that one lately.
Quote from: Ravenswing on July 17, 2021, 02:42:10 PM
Oh noes!! The Evul, Evul SJWs will not only ruin the hobby, but destroy civilization as well en route to bringing about the heat death of the universe! They're going to send their Lawful Good Squads to force you to play their way! They're going to ban everyone from even OWNING any game that doesn't have George Soros' personal signature on them! All their products will cost $66.60 apiece!
Help us, Obi-MAGA Kenobi! You're our only hope!
(https://i.imgur.com/Bg8rNKL.jpg)
Someone's nervous at the suggestion we just stop giving a twopenny fuck what the SJW degenerates think, huh?
(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/67669536/theyre-afraid.jpg)
Quote from: Ravenswing on July 17, 2021, 02:42:10 PM
Oh noes!! The Evul, Evul SJWs will not only ruin the hobby, but destroy civilization as well en route to bringing about the heat death of the universe! They're going to send their Lawful Good Squads to force you to play their way! They're going to ban everyone from even OWNING any game that doesn't have George Soros' personal signature on them! All their products will cost $66.60 apiece!
Hey, I got a question.
How come so many of your Lawful Good Squads are Sex offenders?
(https://startupchrist.files.wordpress.com/2021/07/sf-gay-chorus.png?w=1024&h=496&crop=1)
Quote from: Ocule on July 05, 2021, 01:45:53 PM
I mean the issue hasn't ever really been whether or not to include gays or whatever in the game but finding yourself on the outside of the new gatekeepers because you're the wrong color, political persuasion or just don't want to be preached at. I mean how many times do we need to reform our groups and communities? We get chased out like stray dogs make a new community just to have the same shit happen again in the new community. I found savage worlds after swearing off wotc, and paizo both, now they look like they could go either way. Especially after watching how quick new tsr got yeeted, I'd be surprised if dtrpg didn't somehow retaliate as well against their products.
Savage Worlds was kowtoeing to the SJWs a few years ago wo will not surprise me at all if they go full on supporter.
Quote from: Shasarak on July 17, 2021, 10:09:30 PM
Quote from: Ravenswing on July 17, 2021, 02:42:10 PM
Oh noes!! The Evul, Evul SJWs will not only ruin the hobby, but destroy civilization as well en route to bringing about the heat death of the universe! They're going to send their Lawful Good Squads to force you to play their way! They're going to ban everyone from even OWNING any game that doesn't have George Soros' personal signature on them! All their products will cost $66.60 apiece!
Hey, I got a question.
How come so many of your Lawful Good Squads are Sex offenders?
(https://startupchrist.files.wordpress.com/2021/07/sf-gay-chorus.png?w=1024&h=496&crop=1)
We're not interested in you showing off your friends list.
Quote from: Godsmonkey on July 05, 2021, 01:52:58 PM
4. (or maybe 3b?) Box up all your material from said company and RETURN it with your letter of admonishment. This is putting your money where your mouth is. Sure, they got your cash, but returning your PHB and DMG shows you aren't playing around. If they get thousands of books returned, it will send a stronger message than just a terse email.
This is the stupidest thing to do ever.
The company will just laugh at anyone who gave them money then returned the product. They dont care about what you bought.
They care about what you WILL buy. Or wont buy now.
Or they would if they were not under the thumb of the moral outrage brigade as TSR became, or on WOTCs case, thoroughly in the pocket of the cult.
Omve a company get it in their head doing X will lose them money and doing Y will gain them money. No amount of proof otherwise will change that till they lose ALOT of money. Or the company changes hands to someone sane or at least with the backbone to tell these loons to take a hike.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 17, 2021, 11:36:26 PM
We're not interested in you showing off your friends list.
Sorry man, your monthly payment did not come through.
Quote from: Omega on July 17, 2021, 11:32:48 PM
Savage Worlds was kowtoeing to the SJWs a few years ago wo will not surprise me at all if they go full on supporter.
Is this a reference to the Confederate Army thing in Deadlands? Shane pretty clearly answered that. They're revamping the entire Deadlands line and the Confederacy didn't fit into it. I'm actually not sure it *ever* fit into the Deadlands metaplot - which in point of fact, even in the current timeline which they collapse - they last longer than they did in the actual real world. He did it to clean up the narrative which he's tying back into their upcoming Deadlands Medieval. He made a big huge post about it.
If there is some other thing I'm not aware of - I'd love to hear it.
I don't support any of this SJW shit. I sure as fuck will drop Savage Worlds if they start.
Quote from: Jaeger on July 08, 2021, 06:29:16 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 08, 2021, 05:24:24 AM
Just remember it was Christian goons who wanted to burn your D&D books in the 80's.
Nope, sorry...
It was neurotic mothers looking for something to blame for their bad parenting, and a few theological nobody hucksters trying to cash in on a media fueled ratings grab frenzy.
Why were a bunch of theological nobody hucksters given a so much media airtime?
Why were a bunch of no-names with little following outside their local congregations given a national microphone?
No mainstream or world wide Christian Church put out any official statements about "D&D being the devil".
How come the media at the time driving the "Christians say D&D is the devil" narrative never went to the head of any world wide mainstream Christian Church and asked for an official statement on the issue?
Because they knew the answer would go against with their "look at the crazy Christians" narrative that they were establishing. And they so love to conflate the fringe churchians, and the theological zero's of Christianity with every practicing Christian in America.
And apparently it's worked...
I was playing games during the whole so-called "panic" I'm a member of one of the most conservative mainstream Christian Faiths in the US and world wide.
My Church's official stance on D&D? Absolutely nothing. It is a non issue. Never even brought up.
Now did some smaller loosely affiliated churches buy into the media hysteria? Yes. I wouldn't doubt that maybe even some local congregations of a mainstream church may have lost their damn minds.
So yeah, sucks for the guys who had to live with the actions of gullible parents and pastors with their mail-order preaching certificates who bought into the hysteria. And who made themselves feel good by hating on D&D instead of dealing with their own issues...
But let's label the churchian goons for what they really were, and in some cases still are: Idiots.
Not mainstream Christianity.
Don't buy into the media's Black Legend.
Off topic, kinda.
For a while. And then these "moral guardians" insinuated their lies into mainstream religion and eventually we did indeed have them too after us.
As I've mentioned before. One day I was at the library and a priest approached me as started asking me about one of my players. Not long after he vanished.
Years later I bumped into him and found out what happened. The priest had been investigating the kids "satanic cult behavior" and his parents had sent him to military school to "re-educate" him. Whatever came back. It was not my friend who vanished.
Never underestimate just how insidious these cults can be in infiltrating groups.
Quote from: GnomeWorks on July 08, 2021, 10:15:33 PM
Because they're like vegans, at this point. It's all they can talk about, and they inject their orientation into everything, regardless of how appropriate.
BGG. I kid you not. A year or two ago we had someone tell a game designer that they would not buy his game if it had leather in it... because they were vegans...
Quote from: Shasarak on July 09, 2021, 07:05:19 PM
As far as I can tell, the Satanic Panic was almost entirely an American tradition.
Oh it extended to other lands. Just not in the ways it did in the US. Spain and a few other countries for example STILL have regions where RPGs are illegal as they are marked as... gambling. This was an angle tried in the US too when screaming DEVIL! didnt work. But mercifully did not take off. Other countries it did and apparently no one has tried to abolish it as as of 2 weeks ago I was talking to someone in europe who could not play RPGs because of local law.
According to at least two sources though that law is not enforced all over Spain for example. But only in some cities.
Remember. If they cant get you one way they will try to concoct some excuse to get you another way.
Quote from: tenbones on July 18, 2021, 03:19:31 AMIs this a reference to the Confederate Army thing in Deadlands? Shane pretty clearly answered that. They're revamping the entire Deadlands line and the Confederacy didn't fit into it. I'm actually not sure it *ever* fit into the Deadlands metaplot - which in point of fact, even in the current timeline which they collapse - they last longer than they did in the actual real world. He did it to clean up the narrative which he's tying back into their upcoming Deadlands Medieval. He made a big huge post about it.
If there is some other thing I'm not aware of - I'd love to hear it.
I don't support any of this SJW shit. I sure as fuck will drop Savage Worlds if they start.
Only one I can recall was they pressured the designer of some SW sci-fi book to change the art on the cover because it was deemed "sexist". Early forays before the cult got under full steam but even then they were exerting influence. I could be wrong about it being a SW book though. Its been a few years. Think there was a thread on it here?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWMjjASidhE
Here we go. MtG D&D student life and prom.
Good troll SJWs. It's so completely a screw that I find it hard even to be mad. All I can do it nod. Ya got me. I'm done. Well done.
Prom > Problematic murderhobos
HA HA HA HAAA HAA HA HAAAAA HAAAAA HA
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.naijahusband.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F07%2Fmad-scientist-laugh.gif&f=1&nofb=1)
Quote from: palaeomerus on July 18, 2021, 08:36:41 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWMjjASidhE
Here we go. MtG D&D student life and prom.
Good troll SJWs. It's so completely a screw that I find it hard even to be mad. All I can do it nod. Ya got me. I'm done. Well done.
The article in question:
https://archive.is/YGoOO (https://archive.is/YGoOO)
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 18, 2021, 09:22:34 PM
Quote from: palaeomerus on July 18, 2021, 08:36:41 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWMjjASidhE
Here we go. MtG D&D student life and prom.
Good troll SJWs. It's so completely a screw that I find it hard even to be mad. All I can do it nod. Ya got me. I'm done. Well done.
The article in question:
https://archive.is/YGoOO (https://archive.is/YGoOO)
Eh. It's no dumber than a funhouse dungeon or a character funnel. Not my cup of tea, but whatever.
Quote from: Omega on July 18, 2021, 07:11:58 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 09, 2021, 07:05:19 PM
As far as I can tell, the Satanic Panic was almost entirely an American tradition.
Oh it extended to other lands. Just not in the ways it did in the US. Spain and a few other countries for example STILL have regions where RPGs are illegal as they are marked as... gambling. This was an angle tried in the US too when screaming DEVIL! didnt work. But mercifully did not take off. Other countries it did and apparently no one has tried to abolish it as as of 2 weeks ago I was talking to someone in europe who could not play RPGs because of local law.
According to at least two sources though that law is not enforced all over Spain for example. But only in some cities.
Remember. If they cant get you one way they will try to concoct some excuse to get you another way.
Umm, there are notable exceptions to the RPGs = gambling not taking off in the US. In several prisons and jails in the US, RPGs are considered gambling and considered contraband for inmates.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 18, 2021, 10:04:49 PM
Quote from: Omega on July 18, 2021, 07:11:58 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 09, 2021, 07:05:19 PM
As far as I can tell, the Satanic Panic was almost entirely an American tradition.
Oh it extended to other lands. Just not in the ways it did in the US. Spain and a few other countries for example STILL have regions where RPGs are illegal as they are marked as... gambling. This was an angle tried in the US too when screaming DEVIL! didnt work. But mercifully did not take off. Other countries it did and apparently no one has tried to abolish it as as of 2 weeks ago I was talking to someone in europe who could not play RPGs because of local law.
According to at least two sources though that law is not enforced all over Spain for example. But only in some cities.
Remember. If they cant get you one way they will try to concoct some excuse to get you another way.
Umm, there are notable exceptions to the RPGs = gambling not taking off in the US. In several prisons and jails in the US, RPGs are considered gambling and considered contraband for inmates.
Is that largely because of the dice? Would a diceless and cardless RPG be seen differently?
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 19, 2021, 12:42:10 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 18, 2021, 10:04:49 PM
Quote from: Omega on July 18, 2021, 07:11:58 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 09, 2021, 07:05:19 PM
As far as I can tell, the Satanic Panic was almost entirely an American tradition.
Oh it extended to other lands. Just not in the ways it did in the US. Spain and a few other countries for example STILL have regions where RPGs are illegal as they are marked as... gambling. This was an angle tried in the US too when screaming DEVIL! didnt work. But mercifully did not take off. Other countries it did and apparently no one has tried to abolish it as as of 2 weeks ago I was talking to someone in europe who could not play RPGs because of local law.
According to at least two sources though that law is not enforced all over Spain for example. But only in some cities.
Remember. If they cant get you one way they will try to concoct some excuse to get you another way.
Umm, there are notable exceptions to the RPGs = gambling not taking off in the US. In several prisons and jails in the US, RPGs are considered gambling and considered contraband for inmates.
Is that largely because of the dice? Would a diceless and cardless RPG be seen differently?
I think it is more than just the dice, I had a copy of Dragon magazine bought by a customer on eBay and they asked me to ship it to an inmate at a penitentiary in Georgia. I contacted the prison and was told that in no uncertain terms that it was considered contraband, so I didn't ship it and refunded the sale. Have had no desire to look in to the subject further.
In yet another example of why everyone needs to drop WotC like it's a radioactive potato, here's what their parent company believes;
Anyone expecting Hasbro to eventually reign in WotC once WokeD&D starts to hemorrhage money is fooling themselves. Hasbro is in perfect ideological alignment with Woke WotC.
There's going to be a whole market segment for supporting disaffected players who prefer modern design without the woke politics as the push gets more obvious and OSR is not everyone's cup of tea.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 18, 2021, 09:22:34 PM
Quote from: palaeomerus on July 18, 2021, 08:36:41 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWMjjASidhE
Here we go. MtG D&D student life and prom.
Good troll SJWs. It's so completely a screw that I find it hard even to be mad. All I can do it nod. Ya got me. I'm done. Well done.
The article in question:
https://archive.is/YGoOO (https://archive.is/YGoOO)
Thanks GeekyBugle. The woke Ravenloft book was the final nail in the coffin for me, but the article was a "I'm glad I'm not spending anymore money on them" moment. It's like Pundit has said, they really do hate and want the brand to fail. They don't play the game, they just have found a target that they can destroy.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 19, 2021, 12:42:10 AM
Is that largely because of the dice? Would a diceless and cardless RPG be seen differently?
Dice were the thing for a friend of mine who did time. They were still able to game by fashioning spinners out of cardboard as a replacement.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 19, 2021, 08:29:45 AM
In yet another example of why everyone needs to drop WotC like it's a radioactive potato, here's what their parent company believes;
Anyone expecting Hasbro to eventually reign in WotC once WokeD&D starts to hemorrhage money is fooling themselves. Hasbro is in perfect ideological alignment with Woke WotC.
There's going to be a whole market segment for supporting disaffected players who prefer modern design without the woke politics as the push gets more obvious and OSR is not everyone's cup of tea.
As the saying goes, we still have our old books. This is a grand opportunity for 3rd party creators too.
BWAHAHAHAHA!
[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKVZu5ENHog[/youtube]
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 19, 2021, 10:54:48 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 19, 2021, 08:29:45 AM
In yet another example of why everyone needs to drop WotC like it's a radioactive potato, here's what their parent company believes;
Anyone expecting Hasbro to eventually reign in WotC once WokeD&D starts to hemorrhage money is fooling themselves. Hasbro is in perfect ideological alignment with Woke WotC.
There's going to be a whole market segment for supporting disaffected players who prefer modern design without the woke politics as the push gets more obvious and OSR is not everyone's cup of tea.
As the saying goes, we still have our old books. This is a grand opportunity for 3rd party creators too.
Exactly! And I know that an individual DM can really make the game what they want, so someone, maybe lots of ones, will find the Strixhaven book useful. And I'm sure it'll sell loads. I'm shaking my head at even the idea though, that the devs were reminiscing about their college days and decided to make Modern 5e. And the art style of the book is unappealing to me, subjective I know.
Quote from: tenbones on July 18, 2021, 03:19:31 AM
Quote from: Omega on July 17, 2021, 11:32:48 PM
Savage Worlds was kowtoeing to the SJWs a few years ago wo will not surprise me at all if they go full on supporter.
Is this a reference to the Confederate Army thing in Deadlands? Shane pretty clearly answered that. They're revamping the entire Deadlands line and the Confederacy didn't fit into it. I'm actually not sure it *ever* fit into the Deadlands metaplot - which in point of fact, even in the current timeline which they collapse - they last longer than they did in the actual real world. He did it to clean up the narrative which he's tying back into their upcoming Deadlands Medieval. He made a big huge post about it.
If there is some other thing I'm not aware of - I'd love to hear it.
I don't support any of this SJW shit. I sure as fuck will drop Savage Worlds if they start.
The only thing it ever really did in my games is reinforce the idea of alternate history that it wasn't the same timeline you were playing in. It's removal got me suspicious especially since the coyote confederation and Sioux nations were left entirely intact. In my home game because the USA is now United again the power of the Indian nations has been greatly reduced. I was even considering removing the enchantment that made tech more difficult to use in the Sioux nations. A story arc or something about employing sorcerers to kill the thunderbirds responsible for it.
On the other side of things it made deadlands noir easier to run because of the whole world war thing going on.
Quote from: Ocule on July 19, 2021, 11:51:04 AM
Quote from: tenbones on July 18, 2021, 03:19:31 AM
Quote from: Omega on July 17, 2021, 11:32:48 PM
Savage Worlds was kowtoeing to the SJWs a few years ago wo will not surprise me at all if they go full on supporter.
Is this a reference to the Confederate Army thing in Deadlands? Shane pretty clearly answered that. They're revamping the entire Deadlands line and the Confederacy didn't fit into it. I'm actually not sure it *ever* fit into the Deadlands metaplot - which in point of fact, even in the current timeline which they collapse - they last longer than they did in the actual real world. He did it to clean up the narrative which he's tying back into their upcoming Deadlands Medieval. He made a big huge post about it.
If there is some other thing I'm not aware of - I'd love to hear it.
I don't support any of this SJW shit. I sure as fuck will drop Savage Worlds if they start.
The only thing it ever really did in my games is reinforce the idea of alternate history that it wasn't the same timeline you were playing in. It's removal got me suspicious especially since the coyote confederation and Sioux nations were left entirely intact. In my home game because the USA is now United again the power of the Indian nations has been greatly reduced. I was even considering removing the enchantment that made tech more difficult to use in the Sioux nations. A story arc or something about employing sorcerers to kill the thunderbirds responsible for it.
On the other side of things it made deadlands noir easier to run because of the whole world war thing going on.
Zeppelins with dalgrens and gatlings mounted on them should do the trick. Oh and armor plating, can't forget that. Sky Dreadnaughts I say!
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 19, 2021, 11:04:06 AM
BWAHAHAHAHA!
[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKVZu5ENHog[/youtube]
When you can't separate the artist from the art, clearly the hood is code for the KKK and the artist supports them. And if you disagree you support the KKK too!
I still remember some critics (one critic?) of Lovecraft saying how his works were sexually perverse (even, dare I say it, homosexual in nature!) and that his fans must be closeted homosexuals as well. The great monstrous Cthulhu's tentacled face representing Lovecraft's discomfort with the form of the labia. Then smart people stepped in, calmed everyone the fuck down with opinions based more on facts, and now people know better. Now we have to give at least a paragraph of handwringing over how racist Lovecraft was before milking his brand name for our own profit.*
Point being: this sort of "guilt by association" censorship tactic predates the woke kiddies running around. I've seen the conservative right use it a lot, and now I watch the liberal left do it. Almost like it's less politics and more just loud mouths wanting to control people.
Also: why the fuck is it wrong for the baddies to dress like baddies? While I like the mask, to me the hood -humanizes- Cobra Commander and makes him seem more like he could be anyone.
(*I look forward to the day when every discussion of John Lennon -has- to mention how he was an abusive asshole to his family. Mainly because I can't stand the guy's music.)
Quote from: Ocule on July 19, 2021, 11:51:04 AM
Quote from: tenbones on July 18, 2021, 03:19:31 AM
Quote from: Omega on July 17, 2021, 11:32:48 PM
Savage Worlds was kowtoeing to the SJWs a few years ago wo will not surprise me at all if they go full on supporter.
Is this a reference to the Confederate Army thing in Deadlands? Shane pretty clearly answered that. They're revamping the entire Deadlands line and the Confederacy didn't fit into it. I'm actually not sure it *ever* fit into the Deadlands metaplot - which in point of fact, even in the current timeline which they collapse - they last longer than they did in the actual real world. He did it to clean up the narrative which he's tying back into their upcoming Deadlands Medieval. He made a big huge post about it.
If there is some other thing I'm not aware of - I'd love to hear it.
I don't support any of this SJW shit. I sure as fuck will drop Savage Worlds if they start.
The only thing it ever really did in my games is reinforce the idea of alternate history that it wasn't the same timeline you were playing in. It's removal got me suspicious especially since the coyote confederation and Sioux nations were left entirely intact. In my home game because the USA is now United again the power of the Indian nations has been greatly reduced. I was even considering removing the enchantment that made tech more difficult to use in the Sioux nations. A story arc or something about employing sorcerers to kill the thunderbirds responsible for it.
On the other side of things it made deadlands noir easier to run because of the whole world war thing going on.
I'll be honest - I never liked the metaplot of Deadlands anyhow. I have zero interest in metaplots writ-large and my next Deadlands game will likely still have the Confederation, but that's because pretty much any game I run is an "alternate" timeline to whatever a company offers up as "official".
My games tend to go deeper than plot-point/module fare. So by necessity, most metaplots get blown to smithereens on contact. But I'll take what I like and discard what I don't. Easy peasy. I promise no actual Indians, Whites, Mexicans, Blacks or Asians will be harmed at the privacy of my table.
Quote from: tenbones on July 20, 2021, 12:40:46 PM
I'll be honest - I never liked the metaplot of Deadlands anyhow. I have zero interest in metaplots writ-large and my next Deadlands game will likely still have the Confederation, but that's because pretty much any game I run is an "alternate" timeline to whatever a company offers up as "official".
My games tend to go deeper than plot-point/module fare. So by necessity, most metaplots get blown to smithereens on contact. But I'll take what I like and discard what I don't. Easy peasy. I promise no actual Indians, Whites, Mexicans, Blacks or Asians will be harmed at the privacy of my table.
The concept of microaggressions was invented so neither you nor your players have control over whether you or they were harmed, by turning the concept of harm into a slurry of subjectivity and goofy crypto-ism detection. See, the idea is the oppressor is programmed to oppress and can't tell when they are doing it, and the oppressed are like wise conditioned to be oppressed and can't tell when it is happening so to piece the veil of false consciousness they need woke critical theory to train them to be upset so they join in the revolutionary actions. No one can see the truth until they submit to experience guided hysteria and hallucinations. Those who refuse are nekulturny.
That's bear we all have running loose in our mutual corn crib thanks to GeekInc. and WotC/Paizo reprocessing the hobby out of the garage/basement and into a community space.
sigh.
Also as an unsolicited irrelevance:
I believe that if the Confederacy had survived it would have been a 2nd English and French speaking Mexico probably with a lot of Catholic influence growing. It would have had to drop slavery for share cropping since slavery was already dead ending 50 years before the civil war and most of the wealth would have been land ownership by the very rich but maybe not so wealthy. Slaves would probably still exist but mostly in the Caribbean and I expect the Confederacy would have eventually attempted some Gulf island adventurism. Probably some of it would have been lost to Mexico eventually. Probably would have looked like Central America only farther north by WW1 including having its won Simon Bolivar type. I suspect we would have lost Texas and Louisiana in an oil rush where the MA war happens just not in Mexico and a little bit later just to grab some nice oil reserves and ports again.
My reasons for believing this are probably not quite based on history but I do have certain biases on what kind of institution will do what over time and the Confederacy seemed like a Franco-Anglo take on producing a 2nd Mexico with a lot of Papal influence.
Obviously it's not worth much even if I put a lot of work into it. Just by prejudices on old landed gentry type systems and how they plod along.
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 20, 2021, 11:31:29 AM
While I like the mask, to me the hood -humanizes- Cobra Commander and makes him seem more like he could be anyone.
Ah ha! Which means that anyone could be a secret KKK member because everyone already is a secret KKK member!
Well he's a ruthless unknown leader of a violent well armed secret terrorist army who mind controls extorts and murders and subverts and infiltrates at will but at least he doesn't superficially resemble an old racist organization's traditional anonymizing rumble gear...
Sorry to drop in so late...
But after 14 pages, have any of you figured out how you're going to stop us? Is there a plan? Can I help?
I just feel really bad with all this hand wringing and no forward progress, ya know?
Quote from: trechriron on July 23, 2021, 04:23:50 AM
Sorry to drop in so late...
But after 14 pages, have any of you figured out how you're going to stop us? Is there a plan? Can I help?
I just feel really bad with all this hand wringing and no forward progress, ya know?
Kind of you to offer. I'd say if you'd like to help, you can start with re-examining "Social Justice" with a critical mindset. We've talked about a ton of topics here, like this one.
As to the culture war, I think it's just got to grind on. You can't dispel decades of social conditioning all in a day.
Thread title is a bit misleading, should be titled, "How do we avoid being dumped in mass graves alongside the SJWs"
Quote from: trechriron on July 23, 2021, 04:23:50 AM
Sorry to drop in so late...
But after 14 pages, have any of you figured out how you're going to stop us? Is there a plan? Can I help?
I just feel really bad with all this hand wringing and no forward progress, ya know?
Perhaps we need a real solution... a final solution
And before anyone freaks out that was a joke. So far I think our best bet is to create our own communities and games and gatekeep the hell out of them. Work in subtle messages like none woke artwork like the likes of Frazetta or all the cleavage and toxic masculinity they so despise. It's one thing to not include woke bullshit, it's another to actively subvert the woke talking points. Fantasy armor, social classes, ethnically taking into account people migration and travel. You know as late as wwii there were so few black people in Germany that the German government didn't actually have a policy on where they fell in their camps and their court rulings were that it'll have to be case by case because it would be a waste of time for all like 3 black dudes in the country.
So bring on chainmail bikinis, thicc witches, proper complexions and lords and ladies, the harlot table.
I think the message would be clear to those in the cult while remaining subtle enough that normies wouldn't think twice about it. This strategy is right out of their playbook
Go too far woke, and I'll do one of two things:
One, if your stuff is garbage I won't buy it.
Two, if your stuff is useful, I'll just pirate it.
You don't want my money, right? I'm just a racist shitlord, so I'm saving you the trouble of having to accept my filthy lucre either way.
Folks, as my tag indicates I've been on this spinning mudball for over half a century.
"How do we stop the SJWs?"
Answer: you CANNOT.
The problem here is that SJWs are just mindless useful idiots. Yes they can bully and harass, but they are a symptom, not the disease.
I downloaded and watched Pundit's videos a number of times, and while he is right bringing up the names he does bring up- those rotten French "intellectuals"- he fails to mention the Death Star of leftism run amok: The Frankfurt School.
This was an evil institution that fled to America from Germany in the 1930's to escape Hitler's Nazi Germany. This is the source of most of the insane troublemaking theories we have to deal with today, including Postmodernism and of course Critical Theory, which is the real reason alignments have been removed from Dungeon and Dragons material like Ravenloft.
Keep that in mind: SJWs are merely cannon fodder for elites trying to ruin society. Classic Dungeons and Dragons was about Good vs. Evil, which means there had to be clear-cut evil to fight, thus there had to be a clear definition of good. This is a no-no, everything had to be relative (except for whatever the elites despise- those are absolutes), which is why the whole "issue" of transexuality suddenly appeared out of nowhere.
Because the elites have so much money and power their reach is extensive. This is why companies like Wizards of the Coast are not likely to change their tune anytime soon- has Marvel comics gotten the message in spite of the fact that NOBODY is buying their "woke" comics? It's no longer about making or losing money- we're past that point- it's all about brainwashing. The failure of the Baby Boomers to NOT go along with it all in the 1960's and 1970's has created the trouble we have today.
And don't think it's going to stop here. By now we are supposed to go along with "pregnant men" and "trans-women" because it's all relative. Maybe some of you know that during the 2010's there were tests given to determine "relative age," so if someone my age still likes Dungeons and Dragons or video games I'm actually something like 12 years old mentally. Can you see where THAT'S going? That's right- normalizing pedophilia, but if I have the famous mid-1980's poster of Kathy Ireland in the skimpy yellow bikini on my workplace wall I'm a pervert. NAMBLA will be the sort of thing made normal, because of claims that sort of thing went on all the time in Ancient Greece and etc. etc. you all know the tune by now.
Look- just as true evil Orcs must be led by a strong evil power somewhere to really accomplish much, SJWs and leftism must be held together by something because otherwise it must all fall apart.
How many of you here have already noticed that leftism consists of groups with conflicting grievances? There was a woman at some health club several years ago kicked out because she didn't want a "trans-woman" in the locker room with her. Illegals from Mexico hate American blacks. Can you see a scruffy white male SJW getting along with a Black Lives Matter radical?
The definition of rape is always being expanded, now to include vague definitions of "rape by deception." Well, the problem with "trans-women" is obviously nobody wants them. They want to playact at being actual women, but no, I repeat NO (hear that George Soros?) straight normal guy wants to date or romance them. Period.
So if a normal guy is drunk, it's late and dark in a bar, and a "trans-woman" manages to get as far as, say, "second base" with normal guy who has had a few too many to see clearly- does that count as rape, or is it once again a double standard?
So there's the problem, fellow gamers- the SJWs are merely the Orcs, but it's Sauron we have to worry about.
Now- the best way to deal with it is to NOT vote in people who go along with any of it, to spread the word, to do what Pundit does and cook up good alternatives, to NOT fund Hollywood or ANY mainstream media, to avoid any company that goes along with it. This may seem to contradict what I said earlier, but once the money REALLY dries up, and I mean REALLY, not just a few people refusing, then something MUST change. A huge swarm of bees can stop an elephant.
Well just know that I appreciate your voices even if I don't always agree with your politics.
I think the best bet is to just keep playing games you enjoy with people you enjoy. The whole point of this hobby is to gather around a table with people you appreciate and have some fun. I think theRPGsite takes some of this stuff a little too seriously. There are tons of games out there and you can choose to support any number of companies whose ideals match your own.
So. My advice? Stop worrying and start living. Some of us (The SJWs) are fighting for something we believe in. I think the tactics get a bit overboard (I'm more of a lead-by-example type) but the purpose is sound. I wish things weren't so hostile. I also don't believe all the hyperbole about fascist nannies imprisoning grognards because of wrong think. So, try to be reasonable with yourself. Don't always jump to "the worse idea imaginable".
Things are going to be OK. This too shall work itself out.
Quote from: trechriron on July 23, 2021, 04:45:33 PM
Well just know that I appreciate your voices even if I don't always agree with your politics.
I think the best bet is to just keep playing games you enjoy with people you enjoy. The whole point of this hobby is to gather around a table with people you appreciate and have some fun. I think theRPGsite takes some of this stuff a little too seriously. There are tons of games out there and you can choose to support any number of companies whose ideals match your own.
So. My advice? Stop worrying and start living. Some of us (The SJWs) are fighting for something we believe in. I think the tactics get a bit overboard (I'm more of a lead-by-example type) but the purpose is sound. I wish things weren't so hostile. I also don't believe all the hyperbole about fascist nannies imprisoning grognards because of wrong think. So, try to be reasonable with yourself. Don't always jump to "the worse idea imaginable".
Things are going to be OK. This too shall work itself out.
They have literally been trying to remove us from the hobby, and try to make existing products unpalatable to those they despise
Quote from: trechriron on July 23, 2021, 04:45:33 PM
Well just know that I appreciate your voices even if I don't always agree with your politics.
I think the best bet is to just keep playing games you enjoy with people you enjoy. The whole point of this hobby is to gather around a table with people you appreciate and have some fun. I think theRPGsite takes some of this stuff a little too seriously. There are tons of games out there and you can choose to support any number of companies whose ideals match your own.
So. My advice? Stop worrying and start living. Some of us (The SJWs) are fighting for something we believe in. I think the tactics get a bit overboard (I'm more of a lead-by-example type) but the purpose is sound. I wish things weren't so hostile. I also don't believe all the hyperbole about fascist nannies imprisoning grognards because of wrong think. So, try to be reasonable with yourself. Don't always jump to "the worse idea imaginable".
Things are going to be OK. This too shall work itself out.
I live just fine. Gonna go play some Twilight Imperium tomorrow. No worries there.
Maybe if the SJW hadn't gone batshit fucking insane we'd have less to talk about. Something to consider.
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on July 23, 2021, 04:21:59 PM
Folks, as my tag indicates I've been on this spinning mudball for over half a century.
"How do we stop the SJWs?"
Answer: you CANNOT.
The problem here is that SJWs are just mindless useful idiots. Yes they can bully and harass, but they are a symptom, not the disease.
I downloaded and watched Pundit's videos a number of times, and while he is right bringing up the names he does bring up- those rotten French "intellectuals"- he fails to mention the Death Star of leftism run amok: The Frankfurt School.
This was an evil institution that fled to America from Germany in the 1930's to escape Hitler's Nazi Germany. This is the source of most of the insane troublemaking theories we have to deal with today, including Postmodernism and of course Critical Theory, which is the real reason alignments have been removed from Dungeon and Dragons material like Ravenloft.
The Frankfurt School is an interesting topic for where a lot of this stuff originated, but it's been over 50 years, man. The causes have mutated and split and re-merged into whateverthefuck is floating around right now. Shit, James Lindsay's put up hours and hours of content dissecting the history of this stuff. The Frankfurt School is only a tiny piece of the puzzle now.
Quote from: trechriron on July 23, 2021, 04:23:50 AM
Sorry to drop in so late...
But after 14 pages, have any of you figured out how you're going to stop us? Is there a plan? Can I help?
Have you tried to not be a racist?
Could be worth a try.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 23, 2021, 05:37:55 PM
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on July 23, 2021, 04:21:59 PM
Folks, as my tag indicates I've been on this spinning mudball for over half a century.
"How do we stop the SJWs?"
Answer: you CANNOT.
The problem here is that SJWs are just mindless useful idiots. Yes they can bully and harass, but they are a symptom, not the disease.
I downloaded and watched Pundit's videos a number of times, and while he is right bringing up the names he does bring up- those rotten French "intellectuals"- he fails to mention the Death Star of leftism run amok: The Frankfurt School.
This was an evil institution that fled to America from Germany in the 1930's to escape Hitler's Nazi Germany. This is the source of most of the insane troublemaking theories we have to deal with today, including Postmodernism and of course Critical Theory, which is the real reason alignments have been removed from Dungeon and Dragons material like Ravenloft.
The Frankfurt School is an interesting topic for where a lot of this stuff originated, but it's been over 50 years, man. The causes have mutated and split and re-merged into whateverthefuck is floating around right now. Shit, James Lindsay's put up hours and hours of content dissecting the history of this stuff. The Frankfurt School is only a tiny piece of the puzzle now.
Correct. And without denying the toxicity of the Frankfurt School, the current SJW movement is much more directly descended from the degenerate French pseudo-intellectual postmodernists.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2021, 06:59:36 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 23, 2021, 05:37:55 PM
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on July 23, 2021, 04:21:59 PM
Folks, as my tag indicates I've been on this spinning mudball for over half a century.
"How do we stop the SJWs?"
Answer: you CANNOT.
The problem here is that SJWs are just mindless useful idiots. Yes they can bully and harass, but they are a symptom, not the disease.
I downloaded and watched Pundit's videos a number of times, and while he is right bringing up the names he does bring up- those rotten French "intellectuals"- he fails to mention the Death Star of leftism run amok: The Frankfurt School.
This was an evil institution that fled to America from Germany in the 1930's to escape Hitler's Nazi Germany. This is the source of most of the insane troublemaking theories we have to deal with today, including Postmodernism and of course Critical Theory, which is the real reason alignments have been removed from Dungeon and Dragons material like Ravenloft.
The Frankfurt School is an interesting topic for where a lot of this stuff originated, but it's been over 50 years, man. The causes have mutated and split and re-merged into whateverthefuck is floating around right now. Shit, James Lindsay's put up hours and hours of content dissecting the history of this stuff. The Frankfurt School is only a tiny piece of the puzzle now.
Correct. And without denying the toxicity of the Frankfurt School, the current SJW movement is much more directly descended from the degenerate French pseudo-intellectual postmodernists.
The problem is that it is all deliberately interconnected.
Those French Postmodernists, if you look at their destructive ideals, and the chronological sequence of events, actually got them from the Frankfurt School. The fact that it's 2021 doesn't mean anything; the sorts of troublemakers involved are still around, same story, different names. The very subject of one of your own videos RPGPundit- the elimination of alignments in games- is a direct result of the teachings of the Frankfurt School. If everything is "relative" then what can be evil and therefore wrong? This is the seed of the Sexual Revolution, the Drug Culture, and the crime wave of the 1980's- those were "victims" of a racist plutocracy, a vile capitalist society, not well...criminals.
Pol Pot was simply another tumor of the cancer called communism, and the modern version of that was the result of the Bolshevik Revolution...in 1917. Those events happened long ago, yet the very things spoken of here are the same.
Leftists like to look at communism and Marxism as good ideas that simply went wrong, but they refuse to understand that what "went wrong" was EXACTLY the way it was supposed to have turned out all along! This is why the same thing happens over and over again with these efforts no matter where or when: the hideous results are not "failures," but what they were meant to be. Hence the Holodomor (look it up), which went on during the WW2 period, yet the Soviet Union was an "ally."
I haven't seen the latest Player's Handbook but does it still say males are stronger than females of the same species (biological fact)? That is part of Critical Theory, that it's not real. My game isn't even past the pre-alpha stage and that alone has already caused me to get some flak. The idea of a "classless society" is based on the concept of equalism, which leads to a "Harrison Bergeron" society- but I got extra credit in class back in 1981 for pointing out that in that "all equal" society Hazel of the Handicap Police was NOT wearing any handicaps. The radicals in the SJW movement all think they will be the Hazels.
To understand what is happening today you must understand how we got here, and that started over a century ago. It's just that the cancer that eventually kills you always starts as the tiniest of growths and is not noticed.
Face it, folks, what we are seeing and dealing with now is something started long ago and was allowed to grow unchecked. We are stuck with the mess the Baby Boomers and earlier generations failed to put a stop to in its earlier stages.
Just wait until playing any "non-canon" e.g. leftist version of Dungeons and Dragons becomes a copyright violation and a hate crime. Sound crazy? If I went back in time to 1981 and described 2021 do you think anyone would have believed me?
It won't be easy no matter what.
A bit off topic yet related: if you were around decades ago as I was you might have recalled living through a curious "blip" in recent history.
Radical feminism was on the rapid rise throughout the 1970's, especially after Betty Freidan's book came out in the 1960's. The pilot episode of "Wonder Woman" slammed "women are better than men" feminism in your face, it was all over the place, even in movies like "9 to 5."
But then it all toned down in the first half of the 1980's. Look at the more masculine and even traditional shows and movies that came out, the campy "A-Team" actually being red-pilled.
But then it all started up again in the late 1980's. What happened?
Circa 1980 two key events occurred: Ronald Reagan's election and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. It seemed for years as if World War 3 was ready to happen at any moment. It was a time of danger.
Then Gorbechev took power in 1985. Things cooled down, and radicalism was back, reflected in pop culture.
You see the pattern?
Every single time things become dangerous leftism and equalism vanish, because there is no room for it. This is why women were more "liberated" in the 1920's than the 1950's as Robert Hughes pointed out but he got the reason all wrong, it was because the possibility of nuclear war in the 1950's was very real, parts of the world were still recovering from WW2, but in the 1920's it seemed as though the party would never end- until of course 1929.
This concerns me, folks. There is now so much hatred and antagonism in our society that if things go wrong, seriously wrong, "pulling together" will simply be impossible. I've seen how white men would spit on white women and leave them to their fates (likely death) in a "Lucifer's Hammer" or even "Mad Max" situation. Yet SJWs and feminists will absolutely be incapable of facing the cold truth that they themselves are to blame.
Heck, look at the bad blood happening over a game like Dungeons and Dragons! Now imagine something truly serious!
It just makes me...sad. Sad, and very, very tired.
The Frankfurt School was instrumental in influencing any number of elements meant to demoralize western civilization, from modernist art, to the politicization of environmentalist and peace activism, to student riots, the promotion of feminism, and the loosening of sexual mores. I'm not saying all of these things are bad, but the Frankfurt School intended them to be.
However, they're NOT responsible for Postmodernist Philosophy. They were from two different camps of the same vast movement (Marxism). Foucault had no time at all for the Frankfurt School's work. Hell, Habermas (who was from the Frankfurt School) engaged in intense debates with Derrida (postmodernism), and claimed (correctly, I would say) that Derrida's "Deconstructionist" postmodernism would provide no foundation for the creation of a new (marxist) society in the place of the devastation it would cause.
The postmodernists owe much closer connections to the Marxism of Sartre, even though they were also directly rejecting Sartre as being too boring, bourgeois, and conventional for them. I mean, given Foucault's preferred hobbies included giving Tunisian schoolboys HIV (part of what he would have called "Limit Experiences", which he believed were the only type of experiences that gave any meaning to living), I guess Sartre's beat poetry parties and mistresses was just far too mainstream-French for him.
But at those beat poetry jams, Satre was the one who taught various young college students his idea ("Necessary Violence") that absolutely no limits or principles matter in the pursuit of revolution. Among those who were listening to his teaching was a young Vientamese foreign student who would later call himself Pol Pot, and put Sartre's ideas into action.
The concept of "Necessary Violence" is fundamental to Postmodernism, and thus to SJW ideology. The difference is that Foucault and Derrida realized that the first place to apply it is in semantics and rhetoric, to control the NARRATIVE by any means necessary. If you can do that, then you will have a much easier time of killing anyone who opposes you later.
Quote from: Shasarak on July 23, 2021, 05:43:15 PM
Quote from: trechriron on July 23, 2021, 04:23:50 AM
Sorry to drop in so late...
But after 14 pages, have any of you figured out how you're going to stop us? Is there a plan? Can I help?
Have you tried to not be a racist?
Could be worth a try.
Racist or Rapist?
Quote from: Ocule on July 23, 2021, 04:54:33 PM
They have literally been trying to remove us from the hobby, and try to make existing products unpalatable to those they despise
Meh.
People making stuff you don't want is stuff you don't have to buy. People holding cons you don't want to go to means you don't go to those cons. We make our games what we want with who we want.
Put another way: I don't care if a group of transwomen playing Sword Thirsty Lesbians by Evil Hat don't (or do) want me playing their game and buying that book*. None of that interests me, so I'm literally out nothing by it existing. "Well yeah, but they're also trying to take Alignment and Race out of D&D!" So? They can call Race "Ancestry" or "Lineage" or whatever nonsense they want to to pretend the game doesn't fictional species from another, and I can ignore a half-elf adventurer in a wheelchair in some picture**.
(*who the hell needs a dedicated book to justify playing a lesbian? Want to play a lesbian? Find a group that'll welcome you for playing a lesbian, and play a lesbian! The product is a marketing gimmick and it crows it.)
(**it's D&D. Healing spells, magical prosthetics, wishes, body transfers, and more are all options. Much more likely than finding ADA compliant dungeons or castle towers. Either the handicapped person is... well... handicapped, or the wheelchair is just an insensitive costume prop.)
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 24, 2021, 04:57:03 PM
The Frankfurt School was instrumental in influencing any number of elements meant to demoralize western civilization, from modernist art, to the politicization of environmentalist and peace activism, to student riots, the promotion of feminism, and the loosening of sexual mores. I'm not saying all of these things are bad, but the Frankfurt School intended them to be.
However, they're NOT responsible for Postmodernist Philosophy. They were from two different camps of the same vast movement (Marxism). Foucault had no time at all for the Frankfurt School's work. Hell, Habermas (who was from the Frankfurt School) engaged in intense debates with Derrida (postmodernism), and claimed (correctly, I would say) that Derrida's "Deconstructionist" postmodernism would provide no foundation for the creation of a new (marxist) society in the place of the devastation it would cause.
The postmodernists owe much closer connections to the Marxism of Sartre, even though they were also directly rejecting Sartre as being too boring, bourgeois, and conventional for them. I mean, given Foucault's preferred hobbies included giving Tunisian schoolboys HIV (part of what he would have called "Limit Experiences", which he believed were the only type of experiences that gave any meaning to living), I guess Sartre's beat poetry parties and mistresses was just far too mainstream-French for him.
But at those beat poetry jams, Satre was the one who taught various young college students his idea ("Necessary Violence") that absolutely no limits or principles matter in the pursuit of revolution. Among those who were listening to his teaching was a young Vientamese foreign student who would later call himself Pol Pot, and put Sartre's ideas into action.
The concept of "Necessary Violence" is fundamental to Postmodernism, and thus to SJW ideology. The difference is that Foucault and Derrida realized that the first place to apply it is in semantics and rhetoric, to control the NARRATIVE by any means necessary. If you can do that, then you will have a much easier time of killing anyone who opposes you later.
Hmmm. I seem to remember awhile back when I posted something going into the philosophical background of all this stuff a while ago the thread got closed for being off-topic.
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 26, 2021, 02:55:20 PM
(*who the hell needs a dedicated book to justify playing a lesbian? Want to play a lesbian? Find a group that'll welcome you for playing a lesbian, and play a lesbian! The product is a marketing gimmick and it crows it.)
It's not about needing a game just to play a lesbian. It's a tumblr web comic trashing of an anime with lesbianism in it called Revolutionary Girl Utena but the girls were too anime (which is now once again deemed shitlordy) and so it needs a lesson in snark and crowdfunding nonsense.
This is Utena about a girl who goes to a weird all girls military academy for the most famous and powerful people in the world and they wear uniforms and sword fight and duel. It's fetishy as hell and ridiculous but it takes its premise seriously and works as a sort of tragic romance. Think of it as Baki the Grappler but for girls and also for weirdos.
(https://i0.wp.com/blog.onehallyu.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/11942_revolutionary_girl_utena.jpg)
Thirsty Sword Lesbians is a tumblr grotesque of it. It's too dainty and womany.
Evil Hat, are the people who called Cthulhu stuff racist and then brought you "Hey Cthulhu you big fucking nerd, I know you're here, where's my money" the rpg because public domain + wide brand recognition makes the "racism" okay if you snark about it.
They like this no IP licensing but wide brand recognition scam so they decided to make a parody/pastiche NOT-version of Utena, that has fat dumpy people, uggli-face to deflect the male gaze, bad grrl power and trender haircuts, band-aids over cutter marks, and artlessly declares itself to be lesbian in case no one picks up on it.
They crowd funded it so they could be seen pandering and teaching those Utena types what happens when you're too pretty and and not body positive enough.
What happens is cheap ugly instantly dated novelty crap-trash that looks like something a 4th rate R. Crumb groupie farted out to be controversial in 1977 and has sat in the back of an Oat Willie's ever since.
(https://www.cercatoridiatlantide.it/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/TSL_copertina.png)
Quote from: TJS on July 26, 2021, 05:32:40 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 24, 2021, 04:57:03 PM
The Frankfurt School was instrumental in influencing any number of elements meant to demoralize western civilization, from modernist art, to the politicization of environmentalist and peace activism, to student riots, the promotion of feminism, and the loosening of sexual mores. I'm not saying all of these things are bad, but the Frankfurt School intended them to be.
However, they're NOT responsible for Postmodernist Philosophy. They were from two different camps of the same vast movement (Marxism). Foucault had no time at all for the Frankfurt School's work. Hell, Habermas (who was from the Frankfurt School) engaged in intense debates with Derrida (postmodernism), and claimed (correctly, I would say) that Derrida's "Deconstructionist" postmodernism would provide no foundation for the creation of a new (marxist) society in the place of the devastation it would cause.
The postmodernists owe much closer connections to the Marxism of Sartre, even though they were also directly rejecting Sartre as being too boring, bourgeois, and conventional for them. I mean, given Foucault's preferred hobbies included giving Tunisian schoolboys HIV (part of what he would have called "Limit Experiences", which he believed were the only type of experiences that gave any meaning to living), I guess Sartre's beat poetry parties and mistresses was just far too mainstream-French for him.
But at those beat poetry jams, Satre was the one who taught various young college students his idea ("Necessary Violence") that absolutely no limits or principles matter in the pursuit of revolution. Among those who were listening to his teaching was a young Vientamese foreign student who would later call himself Pol Pot, and put Sartre's ideas into action.
The concept of "Necessary Violence" is fundamental to Postmodernism, and thus to SJW ideology. The difference is that Foucault and Derrida realized that the first place to apply it is in semantics and rhetoric, to control the NARRATIVE by any means necessary. If you can do that, then you will have a much easier time of killing anyone who opposes you later.
Hmmm. I seem to remember awhile back when I posted something going into the philosophical background of all this stuff a while ago the thread got closed for being off-topic.
If you want to talk about the Frankfurt school, start a thread about it on the Pundit's forum.
It's one thing when they try to make their own original product and we all laugh or cringe at it. It's another when they find something you're already invested in and try to change it and go so far as to try and erase or change existing products. Kind of like with Star Wars good luck finding the original trilogy without the edits that were retconned in. A lot of older products like adnd and similar material now has a warning on it but it wouldn't surprise me if they started putting their edits in the PDFs even if you already own the copy and are now unable to download the original cut. Getting your hands on any of these originals is now cost prohibitive
Or 5e.... The corruption was subtle in the core rulebook, but every new release gets more and more in your face about it. The irritating part that drives me bananas about this is having introduced people to the game mechanics, having bought into the game rules and a few supplements. It's not a small investment, then they made their true colors known. It's hard getting people to switch systems especially one they just learned
Want to start resisting Frankfurt School/Post-Modernism, SJWs and the like right here and right now?
Stop referring to males and females as "gender." This was pushed by a lowlife by the name of Dr. Money. "Gender" actually refers to nouns in certain languages, such as "la chica" and "el chico."
This was the "foot in the door" that has led to the craziness about six dozen different "genders" in a dimorphic species.
The proper word is SEX. The human race like other animals has two distinct sexes. The dominant sex among Drow is the female sex. The dominant sex on Ayundell overall is the male sex.
By the by- since the Drow are a matriarchal society do you think that is another reason they can no longer be evil?
If my comments about the Frankfurt School are causing trouble please delete them.
Quote from: Ocule on July 26, 2021, 07:45:40 PM
It's one thing when they try to make their own original product and we all laugh or cringe at it. It's another when they find something you're already invested in and try to change it and go so far as to try and erase or change existing products. Kind of like with Star Wars good luck finding the original trilogy without the edits that were retconned in. A lot of older products like adnd and similar material now has a warning on it but it wouldn't surprise me if they started putting their edits in the PDFs even if you already own the copy and are now unable to download the original cut. Getting your hands on any of these originals is now cost prohibitive
Or 5e.... The corruption was subtle in the core rulebook, but every new release gets more and more in your face about it. The irritating part that drives me bananas about this is having introduced people to the game mechanics, having bought into the game rules and a few supplements. It's not a small investment, then they made their true colors known. It's hard getting people to switch systems especially one they just learned
Re: Star Wars OT original cuts, well I'm not saying people should but I would understand if they choose to sail the hihg seas. BTW I'm the happy owner of it.
Re : 5e... Someone or more likely some team should start working on a "retroclone" of it and the related products, 6e, the wokening, can't be too far.
Quote from: Ocule on July 26, 2021, 07:45:40 PMKind of like with Star Wars good luck finding the original trilogy without the edits that were retconned in.
Its easy. Google Despecialized Edition.
The truth is that the internet has made it easier then ever to find and maintain such communities. People have just been conditioned into corporate subservience and loving IPs instead of ideas.
Let D&D rot. It would have rotten eventually. Nothing lasts forever.
I was able to download the original "Star Wars" from the Internet, so they are out there.
Quote from: palaeomerus on July 26, 2021, 05:47:29 PM
(https://www.cercatoridiatlantide.it/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/TSL_copertina.png)
Is the black lady smiling with a sword through her throat or is that just a perspective issue it's on the other side of her neck?
Quote from: Mind Crime on July 27, 2021, 01:09:45 AM
Quote from: palaeomerus on July 26, 2021, 05:47:29 PM
(http://(snip%20shitty%20tumblr%20art))
Is the black lady smiling with a sword through her throat or is that just a perspective issue it's on the other side of her neck?
It's supposed to be on the other side of her neck, judging from her sword's position. But that's what you get with shitty Tumblr art that wouldn't sell even on a fetish site. Whoever drew this should consider a different vocation.
Quote from: Ocule on July 26, 2021, 07:45:40 PM
It's one thing when they try to make their own original product and we all laugh or cringe at it. It's another when they find something you're already invested in and try to change it and go so far as to try and erase or change existing products. Kind of like with Star Wars good luck finding the original trilogy without the edits that were retconned in. A lot of older products like adnd and similar material now has a warning on it but it wouldn't surprise me if they started putting their edits in the PDFs even if you already own the copy and are now unable to download the original cut. Getting your hands on any of these originals is now cost prohibitive
Or 5e.... The corruption was subtle in the core rulebook, but every new release gets more and more in your face about it. The irritating part that drives me bananas about this is having introduced people to the game mechanics, having bought into the game rules and a few supplements. It's not a small investment, then they made their true colors known. It's hard getting people to switch systems especially one they just learned
Well, in some ways I consider sunk costs as a sort of tax, I DO NOT agree with most of the outrageous things the USA spends their money on. But I get no say in paying the taxes. Products I already own, that have decided to take a path I heavily disagree with, well I can at least ignore the parent policy and play with the materials as I like. In very rare cases I *might* "pay a tax" to people I do not like to get something I want, but more and more this is something I try to stay away from. The sorts who want gay college prom are going to infect other people's creations, they have to. Either because their own creative power is extremely limited, or they know things based on what they want to see and do are simply not palatable to the general public.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 18, 2021, 10:04:49 PM
Umm, there are notable exceptions to the RPGs = gambling not taking off in the US. In several prisons and jails in the US, RPGs are considered gambling and considered contraband for inmates.
Thats not a whole state outlawing RPGs.
It doesn't help that certain AAA developers and publishers have added 'loot crate' microtransactions into their video games.
Before you say 'that's different!', yes, it is different. But look at it from the perspective of a none-too-bright politician.
Loot crates are definitely gambling and must be regulated. Pitting the willpower of your 6yo child/brother/cousin against the psychological manipulations of multi-billion dollar global corporations is not at all appropriate. Moreover, it's just made games a hell of a lot more shitty.
Microtransactions are a shady business practice that deserve a lot more scrutiny. It gets wrapped up in the challenge of "Software as a service" vs. ownership of product you've purchased question. Which in simpler terms is a question of whether corporations should hold power, or should people who purchase products hold power.
Quote from: Zelen on July 27, 2021, 10:44:48 PM
Loot crates are definitely gambling and must be regulated. Pitting the willpower of your 6yo child/brother/cousin against the psychological manipulations of multi-billion dollar global corporations is not at all appropriate. Moreover, it's just made games a hell of a lot more shitty.
Microtransactions are a shady business practice that deserve a lot more scrutiny. It gets wrapped up in the challenge of "Software as a service" vs. ownership of product you've purchased question. Which in simpler terms is a question of whether corporations should hold power, or should people who purchase products hold power.
I watched my ex no shit drop entire paychecks on loot crates before. It was depressing, theres a reason shes my ex lol
Quote from: Zelen on July 27, 2021, 10:44:48 PM
"Software as a service" vs. ownership of product you've purchased question. Which in simpler terms is a question of whether corporations should hold power, or should people who purchase products hold power.
Not following this ... are you saying that subscription services are evil, and only desktop software is ok?
Quote from: Zalman on July 28, 2021, 09:51:25 AM
Quote from: Zelen on July 27, 2021, 10:44:48 PM
"Software as a service" vs. ownership of product you've purchased question. Which in simpler terms is a question of whether corporations should hold power, or should people who purchase products hold power.
Not following this ... are you saying that subscription services are evil, and only desktop software is ok?
It can be argued that unless it is open source, you have not owned any software within your lifetime. Even in the very early days, you bought a license to use the software.
Quote from: zircher on July 28, 2021, 02:02:00 PM
Quote from: Zalman on July 28, 2021, 09:51:25 AM
Quote from: Zelen on July 27, 2021, 10:44:48 PM
"Software as a service" vs. ownership of product you've purchased question. Which in simpler terms is a question of whether corporations should hold power, or should people who purchase products hold power.
Not following this ... are you saying that subscription services are evil, and only desktop software is ok?
It can be argued that unless it is open source, you have not owned any software within your lifetime. Even in the very early days, you bought a license to use the software.
Sure. But once you bought the software, you got a copy on physical media that you could install and use without a subscription. That has slowly changed over the years, and not necessarily for the better.
The tendency to subscript-ify software does not make me happy as a customer. Is the juice worth the squeeze? Or are they just charging you a monthly fee and hope you forget to cancel when you stop using the software?
Quote from: Zalman on July 28, 2021, 09:51:25 AM
Quote from: Zelen on July 27, 2021, 10:44:48 PM
"Software as a service" vs. ownership of product you've purchased question. Which in simpler terms is a question of whether corporations should hold power, or should people who purchase products hold power.
Not following this ... are you saying that subscription services are evil, and only desktop software is ok?
It's a complex topic and there's very good technical reasons for wanting certain things both as a user and as a corporation. But the Software-as-a-Service model generally is one in which you as a user have no rights whatsoever. I think in a sane society we would take some serious scrutiny to this to ensure that, at a bare minimum, purchasing a product would enable you access to that product locally in a way that didn't depend on external services.
If I buy the "Digital RPG Book Library" then I think it's fair that I should be able to go and download a copy of all the books I own and have them locally. Even if DigitalLibraryCo later decides they don't like that I once wore a hat they found offensive, and refuse my business, I at least have the product I purchased.
Quote from: Zelen on July 28, 2021, 02:48:52 PM
Quote from: Zalman on July 28, 2021, 09:51:25 AM
Quote from: Zelen on July 27, 2021, 10:44:48 PM
"Software as a service" vs. ownership of product you've purchased question. Which in simpler terms is a question of whether corporations should hold power, or should people who purchase products hold power.
Not following this ... are you saying that subscription services are evil, and only desktop software is ok?
It's a complex topic and there's very good technical reasons for wanting certain things both as a user and as a corporation. But the Software-as-a-Service model generally is one in which you as a user have no rights whatsoever. I think in a sane society we would take some serious scrutiny to this to ensure that, at a bare minimum, purchasing a product would enable you access to that product locally in a way that didn't depend on external services.
And that a corporation couldn't just ban you from using it because you're a meanie that hurts people's feelings.
But the real solution IS open source.
Quote from: Zelen on July 28, 2021, 02:48:52 PM
If I buy the "Digital RPG Book Library" then I think it's fair that I should be able to go and download a copy of all the books I own and have them locally. Even if DigitalLibraryCo later decides they don't like that I once wore a hat they found offensive, and refuse my business, I at least have the product I purchased.
Movies Anywhere (MA) might be a good model. To adapt it to the RPG world, a bunch of the individual companies that have PDF stores would get together and create a service, let's call it RPGs Anywhere (RA). A gamer could then buy Tome of Horrors at Frog God Games, and Lords of Olympus at Precis Intermedia, and link both those accounts to RA. Both products would show up in the gamer's RA library, and RA tells both sites that the gamer owns both these games. If the products are available at both stores, that means they appear in the gamer's library on both sites, and can be downloaded from either. Making the authorization process a one-time thing and persistent, so doesn't require constant verification and can't be revoked on a whim, gives the gamer a sense of ownership and security. Because even if FGG goes belly up, or just stops running a webstore and a PDF download service, the gamer can still download Tome of Horrors from Precis Intermedia. It basically creates a persistent and distributed library, and the more retailers who sign up the stronger it becomes. It might ultimately become a valid alternative to OneBookShelf.
Quote from: Pat on July 28, 2021, 04:15:47 PM
Quote from: Zelen on July 28, 2021, 02:48:52 PM
If I buy the "Digital RPG Book Library" then I think it's fair that I should be able to go and download a copy of all the books I own and have them locally. Even if DigitalLibraryCo later decides they don't like that I once wore a hat they found offensive, and refuse my business, I at least have the product I purchased.
Movies Anywhere (MA) might be a good model. To adapt it to the RPG world, a bunch of the individual companies that have PDF stores would get together and create a service, let's call it RPGs Anywhere (RA). A gamer could then buy Tome of Horrors at Frog God Games, and Lords of Olympus at Precis Intermedia, and link both those accounts to RA. Both products would show up in the gamer's RA library, and RA tells both sites that the gamer owns both these games. If the products are available at both stores, that means they appear in the gamer's library on both sites, and can be downloaded from either. Making the authorization process a one-time thing and persistent, so doesn't require constant verification and can't be revoked on a whim, gives the gamer a sense of ownership and security. Because even if FGG goes belly up, or just stops running a webstore and a PDF download service, the gamer can still download Tome of Horrors from Precis Intermedia. It basically creates a persistent and distributed library, and the more retailers who sign up the stronger it becomes. It might ultimately become a valid alternative to OneBookShelf.
What you're describing is something I mentioned a while back: We need an alternative for TTRPG but it needs to be distributed in such a way that no publisher can be deplataformed.
Only problem I see is that if the writer of Myfarog jumps in you might be forced to host his content. I see no easy solution other than allowing individual publishers to opt out from hosting content from such publishers they don't want to help/promote.
And this creates another problem, lets say the SJWs (since they seem to have more numbers than the myfarog types) create a bunch of accounts, enough as to be more than half the stores...
They could with time corner the store and efectively ban the wrongthinkers.
Maybe not have the publisher mirror shit from anyone but to help hosting the store? And making it work with blockchain.
Quote from: Zelen on July 28, 2021, 02:48:52 PM
But the Software-as-a-Service model generally is one in which you as a user have no rights whatsoever. I think in a sane society we would take some serious scrutiny to this to ensure that, at a bare minimum, purchasing a product would enable you access to that product locally in a way that didn't depend on external services.
Sure, but I noticed you switched mid-paragraph from talking about software as a
service, and owning a
product. Your point seems to be that subscription services eschew rights. I'm not seeing it: the user can always opt to end their subscription.
I do agree that purchasing a product is better than subscribing to a service, for the reasons you mention. Of course, the service model has its own advantages, namely convenience and offloading of responsibility. I also agree with Zircher though: in most cases "purchasing a product" doesn't really ensure ownership of that product in a meaningful way, when it comes to digital assets.
Open-source is one way, as you point out. I think NFTs and dAPPs have tremendous potential as well. As I've mentioned elsewhere on the board, distributed, blockchain-backed software not only protects the user's usage rights, it also provides a distribution model that is immune to censorship.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2021, 02:52:57 PM
But the real solution IS open source.
Agree, and generally speaking I don't think it's possible to have a free society with this much technology around unless you can actually look at its software and validate it's doing what it's doing and not other malicious activities.
Quote from: Zalman on July 28, 2021, 05:41:52 PM
Sure, but I noticed you switched mid-paragraph from talking about software as a service, and owning a product. Your point seems to be that subscription services eschew rights. I'm not seeing it: the user can always opt to end their subscription.
I do agree that purchasing a product is better than subscribing to a service, for the reasons you mention. Of course, the service model has its own advantages, namely convenience and offloading of responsibility. I also agree with Zircher though: in most cases "purchasing a product" doesn't really ensure ownership of that product in a meaningful way, when it comes to digital assets.
That's because I don't agree with the framing of SAAS. Almost any type of transaction can be framed as a "Service." Buying into that framing allows big corporations to sell you a bunch of services, but -- this might sound familiar -- You'll own nothing.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2021, 04:28:11 PM
Quote from: Pat on July 28, 2021, 04:15:47 PM
Quote from: Zelen on July 28, 2021, 02:48:52 PM
If I buy the "Digital RPG Book Library" then I think it's fair that I should be able to go and download a copy of all the books I own and have them locally. Even if DigitalLibraryCo later decides they don't like that I once wore a hat they found offensive, and refuse my business, I at least have the product I purchased.
Movies Anywhere (MA) might be a good model. To adapt it to the RPG world, a bunch of the individual companies that have PDF stores would get together and create a service, let's call it RPGs Anywhere (RA). A gamer could then buy Tome of Horrors at Frog God Games, and Lords of Olympus at Precis Intermedia, and link both those accounts to RA. Both products would show up in the gamer's RA library, and RA tells both sites that the gamer owns both these games. If the products are available at both stores, that means they appear in the gamer's library on both sites, and can be downloaded from either. Making the authorization process a one-time thing and persistent, so doesn't require constant verification and can't be revoked on a whim, gives the gamer a sense of ownership and security. Because even if FGG goes belly up, or just stops running a webstore and a PDF download service, the gamer can still download Tome of Horrors from Precis Intermedia. It basically creates a persistent and distributed library, and the more retailers who sign up the stronger it becomes. It might ultimately become a valid alternative to OneBookShelf.
What you're describing is something I mentioned a while back: We need an alternative for TTRPG but it needs to be distributed in such a way that no publisher can be deplataformed.
Only problem I see is that if the writer of Myfarog jumps in you might be forced to host his content. I see no easy solution other than allowing individual publishers to opt out from hosting content from such publishers they don't want to help/promote.
And this creates another problem, lets say the SJWs (since they seem to have more numbers than the myfarog types) create a bunch of accounts, enough as to be more than half the stores...
They could with time corner the store and efectively ban the wrongthinkers.
Maybe not have the publisher mirror shit from anyone but to help hosting the store? And making it work with blockchain.
Yes, we've talked about it before.
But that's not a really a problem with Movie Anywhere. While most movies seem to be available at most retailers, that not a requirement and is not always the case. There are some Movies Anywhere movies that are available on Apple, but which aren't currently available at other retailers, like Vudu. That just means you can't watch them on Vudu. But on the other hand, if Vudu does start carrying the movie in the future, MA will let Vudu know you own the movie, and you'll be able to watch it on both platforms, even if you bought it over at Apple before it was available on Vudu.
The number of retailers who participate in the MA program is also limited. There are only about a dozen, and they're big. It's not designed for every home video publisher, but for big end retailers like Vudu (formerly Walmart), Google Play Video, Amazon Prime, Apple iTunes, and a couple others. The RPG equivalent would be sites like Warehouse 23, Paizo, and so on. So there would be a filter in place to prevent things like MyFarog, but still at least some variety. A more completely decentralized model that can't be censored at all would be possible, but would require significant changes.
Quote from: Zelen on July 28, 2021, 06:15:43 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2021, 02:52:57 PM
But the real solution IS open source.
Agree, and generally speaking I don't think it's possible to have a free society with this much technology around unless you can actually look at its software and validate it's doing what it's doing and not other malicious activities.
Quote from: Zalman on July 28, 2021, 05:41:52 PM
Sure, but I noticed you switched mid-paragraph from talking about software as a service, and owning a product. Your point seems to be that subscription services eschew rights. I'm not seeing it: the user can always opt to end their subscription.
I do agree that purchasing a product is better than subscribing to a service, for the reasons you mention. Of course, the service model has its own advantages, namely convenience and offloading of responsibility. I also agree with Zircher though: in most cases "purchasing a product" doesn't really ensure ownership of that product in a meaningful way, when it comes to digital assets.
That's because I don't agree with the framing of SAAS. Almost any type of transaction can be framed as a "Service." Buying into that framing allows big corporations to sell you a bunch of services, but -- this might sound familiar -- You'll own nothing.
IMHO not only software, hardware needs to be open too. How do you know the hardware doesn't have any backdoors?
As for RPGs look at the ones with most independent supplements, they all have one thing in common, some sort of license that allows you, for no cost to create the content.
True most licenses are kinda BS since the owner of the game can revoke your right to use it at any time because they feel like it, but still.
Quote from: Pat on July 28, 2021, 06:22:59 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2021, 04:28:11 PM
Quote from: Pat on July 28, 2021, 04:15:47 PM
Quote from: Zelen on July 28, 2021, 02:48:52 PM
If I buy the "Digital RPG Book Library" then I think it's fair that I should be able to go and download a copy of all the books I own and have them locally. Even if DigitalLibraryCo later decides they don't like that I once wore a hat they found offensive, and refuse my business, I at least have the product I purchased.
Movies Anywhere (MA) might be a good model. To adapt it to the RPG world, a bunch of the individual companies that have PDF stores would get together and create a service, let's call it RPGs Anywhere (RA). A gamer could then buy Tome of Horrors at Frog God Games, and Lords of Olympus at Precis Intermedia, and link both those accounts to RA. Both products would show up in the gamer's RA library, and RA tells both sites that the gamer owns both these games. If the products are available at both stores, that means they appear in the gamer's library on both sites, and can be downloaded from either. Making the authorization process a one-time thing and persistent, so doesn't require constant verification and can't be revoked on a whim, gives the gamer a sense of ownership and security. Because even if FGG goes belly up, or just stops running a webstore and a PDF download service, the gamer can still download Tome of Horrors from Precis Intermedia. It basically creates a persistent and distributed library, and the more retailers who sign up the stronger it becomes. It might ultimately become a valid alternative to OneBookShelf.
What you're describing is something I mentioned a while back: We need an alternative for TTRPG but it needs to be distributed in such a way that no publisher can be deplataformed.
Only problem I see is that if the writer of Myfarog jumps in you might be forced to host his content. I see no easy solution other than allowing individual publishers to opt out from hosting content from such publishers they don't want to help/promote.
And this creates another problem, lets say the SJWs (since they seem to have more numbers than the myfarog types) create a bunch of accounts, enough as to be more than half the stores...
They could with time corner the store and efectively ban the wrongthinkers.
Maybe not have the publisher mirror shit from anyone but to help hosting the store? And making it work with blockchain.
Yes, we've talked about it before.
But that's not a really a problem with Movie Anywhere. While most movies seem to be available at most retailers, that not a requirement and is not always the case. There are some Movies Anywhere movies that are available on Apple, but which aren't currently available at other retailers, like Vudu. That just means you can't watch them on Vudu. But on the other hand, if Vudu does start carrying the movie in the future, MA will let Vudu know you own the movie, and you'll be able to watch it on both platforms, even if you bought it over at Apple before it was available on Vudu.
The number of retailers who participate in the MA program is also limited. There are only about a dozen, and they're big. It's not designed for every home video publisher, but for big end retailers like Vudu (formerly Walmart), Google Play Video, Amazon Prime, Apple iTunes, and a couple others. The RPG equivalent would be sites like Warehouse 23, Paizo, and so on. So there would be a filter in place to prevent things like MyFarog, but still at least some variety. A more completely decentralized model that can't be censored at all would be possible, but would require significant changes.
Thing is, the way things are going it will be a long wait till the trend reverses and the current puritans loose their grip on society if ever, and we all know that a new crop of puritans will arise to fill the vacum.
So what we need is a trully decentralized solution that can't be censored.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2021, 06:25:12 PM
IMHO not only software, hardware needs to be open too. How do you know the hardware doesn't have any backdoors?
100%. System76 (https://system76.com) got you covered there.
Quote from: Zalman on July 28, 2021, 07:11:15 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2021, 06:25:12 PM
IMHO not only software, hardware needs to be open too. How do you know the hardware doesn't have any backdoors?
100%. System76 (https://system76.com) got you covered there.
Ryzen, core, xeon CPUs, I don't see a single CPU much less GPU that's opensourced.
What is a "loot crate?" If it's about mobile gaming it is a blind spot, I only use laptops.
I prefer to learn about it from actual people who respond rather than an Internet search.
I want the naughtiness of D&D to come back. It's maybe about half of what I liked about it.
Look, I was never a SMOF so I can't filk worth a toot, but the last couple of editions would not have led to me wasting my time bothering MS paint into producing this.
(https://i.imgur.com/WshdHtD.png)
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on July 28, 2021, 10:07:17 PM
What is a "loot crate?" If it's about mobile gaming it is a blind spot, I only use laptops.
I prefer to learn about it from actual people who respond rather than an Internet search.
It's a phenonmenon on many games, not just mobile games.
You spend real world cash for in-game bennies, that are randomized in a virtual "box" of goodies. Like Experience point boosters, item "skins" (alternate appearances for gear), emotes (social things your character can do, like /cry or /laugh or /tango), in-game currency, and straight up superior gear.
The goal is to have rare items that only occasionally appear in a loot box so you buy a ton of them looking for rare stuff.
I got some loot crates for being a paid subscriber to Star Wars, The Old Republic and it made me so appaled I cancelled my sub and have only played as a "free" account since.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on July 03, 2021, 03:55:09 PM
When I spoke out against the hate mob attacking Bob Bledsoe Jr all I got was grief from both sides. It was clear to me at that point that "the SJWs" were not the problem, merely a symptom of the problem. The issue is the entire idea that there's a line where if someone believes anything beyond that line, they need to be banned from RPGs. All that we have now are groups of people arguing as to where the line should be drawn. But any time you have such a line, it will always be moved to include more and more people. That part is inevitable.
The moment you say something like "D&D has always been Inclusive" or "D&D has always been Diverse" you've lost the argument because you are making the case that inclusivity and diversity are qualities on which an RPG should be judge. And if a little Inclusiveness is good, more Inclusiveness is better. So, one again you are simply arguing on how high a percentage of straight while males are allowed to play a game before that game is bad.
We need to completely reject the idea that RPGs should be judge on such criteria. That is the only way out of this mess.
Quote from: Ocule on July 03, 2021, 11:07:15 AMIt has made me very hesitant to want to pick up new games because I hate to invest my time and money into a game where the devs hate me and would see me put in a fucking gulag if they could and what is apolitical or not woke today, won't necessarily be still apolitical or not woke tomorrow.
This is the best course of action. Avoid the RPG industry and make your own games.
I know I'm late but I just read your comment and I wanted to say: YES. This is the right thing to do. Don't "lose frame". Don't argue on their terms, don't give in to their scale of values, don't get defensive. "Diversity" and "inclusivity" (i.e. shoehorning characters of every possible "minority" for the sake of representation) are not positive nor valuable aspects of a game. It's pushing an agenda, period. They may act oblivious but they know it's part of their manifesto. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a party of straight, white males; especially not in a European fantasy setting. Your game does not need to go out of its way to pander to people who will still feel pissed off.
Wokes are like children testing their parents' strength of character; seeing how far they can get with their tantrum. Give them an inch and you'll have them banning people for not worshipping a gay couple. Stop them in their tracks, otherwise they'll feel enabled.
Quote from: SonTodoGato on July 30, 2021, 12:04:39 AM
Wokes are like children testing their parents' strength of character; seeing how far they can get with their tantrum. Give them an inch and you'll have them banning people for not worshipping a gay couple. Stop them in their tracks, otherwise they'll feel enabled.
I think this is a dangerous analogy. Wokesters are intelligent, dedicated adults. They're more likely to be psychopaths and fanatics, not children. I'm concerned that down playing their mental faculties leads to underestimating the harm they can do.
Quote from: zircher on July 30, 2021, 10:52:04 AM
Quote from: SonTodoGato on July 30, 2021, 12:04:39 AM
Wokes are like children testing their parents' strength of character; seeing how far they can get with their tantrum. Give them an inch and you'll have them banning people for not worshipping a gay couple. Stop them in their tracks, otherwise they'll feel enabled.
I think this is a dangerous analogy. Wokesters are intelligent, dedicated adults. They're more likely to be psychopaths and fanatics, not children. I'm concerned that down playing their mental faculties leads to underestimating the harm they can do.
I don't think they qualify as intelligent by any standard; they don't produce anything of value, they create problems rather than solving them, they have delusional views completely dettached from reality, they have zero consistency in terms of values, lack individual thought, they bring down successful franchises, have dysfunctional, unfulfilling lifestyles, can't play a game without breaking down due to microaggressions and need to drag other people down to their level. However, they are psychopathic, manipulative, dishonest, spiteful, resentful, cruel and act like a hivemind fueled by hatred of their parents shaped by indoctrination mechanisms.
Their sole existence depends on millionaires and billionaires funding them in spite of their constant failure and politicians keeping them alive for their own gain. They need to ban people en masse, block comments, get people fired, social shaming, state coercion, manipulation of the news, lying and cheating so that normal people won't call them out and utterly destroy their narrative.
That being said, the average woke lady is probably just "shit testing" you to get a reaction. Don't give it to her. Don't engage. Laugh it off and carry on.
Ran across this private group on Farcebook a little while ago. Dude just wants a place for folks to post gaming group finder ads without being harassed by the woke crowd. They've only gotta little over 100 members so far, but I figured this would be as good of a place as any to share the link. Join up if you want: https://www.facebook.com/groups/245455460736574/?ref=share
Quote from: Jamfke on August 09, 2021, 10:51:18 PM
Ran across this private group on Farcebook a little while ago. Dude just wants a place for folks to post gaming group finder ads without being harassed by the woke crowd. They've only gotta little over 100 members so far, but I figured this would be as good of a place as any to share the link. Join up if you want: https://www.facebook.com/groups/245455460736574/?ref=share
I'm already there.
One of the better things you can do to "Stop the SJWs" is get off of Facebook.
Quote from: Zelen on August 10, 2021, 10:14:26 AM
One of the better things you can do to "Stop the SJWs" is get off of Facebook.
True. I have almost cut out my interaction there, but it's kind of like crack or meth, once you're hooked it's hard to break away from it completely all at once. That, and it's still sort of useful to see what some normal gamers are up to these days.
Quote from: Jamfke on August 10, 2021, 10:36:27 AM
Quote from: Zelen on August 10, 2021, 10:14:26 AM
One of the better things you can do to "Stop the SJWs" is get off of Facebook.
True. I have almost cut out my interaction there, but it's kind of like crack or meth, once you're hooked it's hard to break away from it completely all at once.
On the other hand, once you *do* quit crack, meth, or Farcebook, it becomes
really really obvious how much better your life is without it.
Quote from: Jamfke on August 10, 2021, 10:36:27 AMThat, and it's still sort of useful to see what some normal gamers are up to these days.
Interesting, I myself haven't gleaned any value whatsoever from that information. YMMV.
Never quite understood the hate for Facebook myself.
I use it to schedule gaming, keep up with family and friends, and post stupid jokes. Like I do on the rest of the internet.
My progressive friends post dumb political shit, and my conservative friends post dumb political shit. I ignore it all.
Most of what pisses me off about Facebook is the advertising, but I hate all advertising, so that's not out of the ordinary.
Wait, what? FB has advertising? I've long ago filtered 99% of that out. I find FB is fine if you avoid the toxic bits. And by now, things like fact checkers are running jokes that earns FB mockery more than anything else.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 29, 2021, 01:12:39 AM
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on July 28, 2021, 10:07:17 PM
What is a "loot crate?" If it's about mobile gaming it is a blind spot, I only use laptops.
I prefer to learn about it from actual people who respond rather than an Internet search.
It's a phenonmenon on many games, not just mobile games.
You spend real world cash for in-game bennies, that are randomized in a virtual "box" of goodies. Like Experience point boosters, item "skins" (alternate appearances for gear), emotes (social things your character can do, like /cry or /laugh or /tango), in-game currency, and straight up superior gear.
The goal is to have rare items that only occasionally appear in a loot box so you buy a ton of them looking for rare stuff.
I got some loot crates for being a paid subscriber to Star Wars, The Old Republic and it made me so appaled I cancelled my sub and have only played as a "free" account since.
So essentially it's a ripoff?
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on August 10, 2021, 05:05:58 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 29, 2021, 01:12:39 AM
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on July 28, 2021, 10:07:17 PM
What is a "loot crate?" If it's about mobile gaming it is a blind spot, I only use laptops.
I prefer to learn about it from actual people who respond rather than an Internet search.
It's a phenonmenon on many games, not just mobile games.
You spend real world cash for in-game bennies, that are randomized in a virtual "box" of goodies. Like Experience point boosters, item "skins" (alternate appearances for gear), emotes (social things your character can do, like /cry or /laugh or /tango), in-game currency, and straight up superior gear.
The goal is to have rare items that only occasionally appear in a loot box so you buy a ton of them looking for rare stuff.
I got some loot crates for being a paid subscriber to Star Wars, The Old Republic and it made me so appaled I cancelled my sub and have only played as a "free" account since.
So essentially it's a ripoff?
It's a gambling system.
Whether you consider it a ripoff is entirely based on your subjective evaluation of whether playing a game is
valuable and if owning convenience or prestige in that game is
valuable.
The more pernicious aspect is since most games are now driven by this model, mainly targeting people who have low impulse control (which is to say, kids, poor, mentally disabled and ill, etc). I have a friend who I know who lives on public assistance because he's not competent to actually work, and has spent tens of thousands of dollars on lootboxes.
Quote from: Zelen on August 10, 2021, 05:43:50 PMIt's a gambling system.
Its an exploitative shitty system that makes it worse for everybody. There is no such thing as a 'good' lootbox system. Even aesthetic one.
Being OK with it, and playing into it is like being OK to benefit from cheaper hot wings at a casino because they make most of their money through gullible people.
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on August 10, 2021, 05:05:58 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 29, 2021, 01:12:39 AM
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on July 28, 2021, 10:07:17 PM
What is a "loot crate?" If it's about mobile gaming it is a blind spot, I only use laptops.
I prefer to learn about it from actual people who respond rather than an Internet search.
It's a phenonmenon on many games, not just mobile games.
You spend real world cash for in-game bennies, that are randomized in a virtual "box" of goodies. Like Experience point boosters, item "skins" (alternate appearances for gear), emotes (social things your character can do, like /cry or /laugh or /tango), in-game currency, and straight up superior gear.
The goal is to have rare items that only occasionally appear in a loot box so you buy a ton of them looking for rare stuff.
I got some loot crates for being a paid subscriber to Star Wars, The Old Republic and it made me so appaled I cancelled my sub and have only played as a "free" account since.
So essentially it's a ripoff?
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/36a209b927f18731aab5cb81feee9cd1/tumblr_mmv3jopZmw1r2lonmo1_500.gif)
OK, so after reading the most recent pages...
You're going to defeat the SJWs by playing video games?
Quote from: trechriron on August 10, 2021, 08:20:02 PMYou're going to defeat the SJWs by playing video games?
And by hating women, minorities, minority women, and jaywalking.
Quote from: trechriron on August 10, 2021, 08:20:02 PM
You're going to defeat the SJWs by playing video games?
No, that would be silly.
Its by playing video games and enjoying them in inappropriate ways with friends.
Loot crates sound like a greedy and cruel ripoff system. They know perfectly well what would happen to kids and the like.
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on August 10, 2021, 09:35:37 PM
Loot crates sound like a greedy and cruel ripoff system. They know perfectly well what would happen to kids and the like.
It is, and they do. They got so much negativity about it they renamed it "surprise mechanics"
Quote from: Wntrlnd on August 11, 2021, 05:33:08 AM
It is, and they do. They got so much negativity about it they renamed it "surprise mechanics"
Surprise! Your bank account is empty.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on July 03, 2021, 03:55:09 PM
When I spoke out against the hate mob attacking Bob Bledsoe Jr all I got was grief from both sides. It was clear to me at that point that "the SJWs" were not the problem, merely a symptom of the problem. The issue is the entire idea that there's a line where if someone believes anything beyond that line, they need to be banned from RPGs. All that we have now are groups of people arguing as to where the line should be drawn. But any time you have such a line, it will always be moved to include more and more people. That part is inevitable.
The moment you say something like "D&D has always been Inclusive" or "D&D has always been Diverse" you've lost the argument because you are making the case that inclusivity and diversity are qualities on which an RPG should be judge. And if a little Inclusiveness is good, more Inclusiveness is better. So, one again you are simply arguing on how high a percentage of straight while males are allowed to play a game before that game is bad.
We need to completely reject the idea that RPGs should be judge on such criteria. That is the only way out of this mess.
Quote from: Ocule on July 03, 2021, 11:07:15 AMIt has made me very hesitant to want to pick up new games because I hate to invest my time and money into a game where the devs hate me and would see me put in a fucking gulag if they could and what is apolitical or not woke today, won't necessarily be still apolitical or not woke tomorrow.
This is the best course of action. Avoid the RPG industry and make your own games.
I agree with this. It's a GAME for crying out loud. The uncrossable line should be nowhere to be found. I don't care if it's a game about killing grandmas (as much as I like grandmas) or raping babies (as much as I hate pedos), or god forbid, a game designed to sell specifically (dare I say it) to men. As long as it stays a game it's fine; it may or may not be my cup of tea but maybe it keeps someone from snapping.
Quote from: Trond on August 11, 2021, 09:50:39 AM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on July 03, 2021, 03:55:09 PM
When I spoke out against the hate mob attacking Bob Bledsoe Jr all I got was grief from both sides. It was clear to me at that point that "the SJWs" were not the problem, merely a symptom of the problem. The issue is the entire idea that there's a line where if someone believes anything beyond that line, they need to be banned from RPGs. All that we have now are groups of people arguing as to where the line should be drawn. But any time you have such a line, it will always be moved to include more and more people. That part is inevitable.
The moment you say something like "D&D has always been Inclusive" or "D&D has always been Diverse" you've lost the argument because you are making the case that inclusivity and diversity are qualities on which an RPG should be judge. And if a little Inclusiveness is good, more Inclusiveness is better. So, one again you are simply arguing on how high a percentage of straight while males are allowed to play a game before that game is bad.
We need to completely reject the idea that RPGs should be judge on such criteria. That is the only way out of this mess.
Quote from: Ocule on July 03, 2021, 11:07:15 AMIt has made me very hesitant to want to pick up new games because I hate to invest my time and money into a game where the devs hate me and would see me put in a fucking gulag if they could and what is apolitical or not woke today, won't necessarily be still apolitical or not woke tomorrow.
This is the best course of action. Avoid the RPG industry and make your own games.
I agree with this. It's a GAME for crying out loud. The uncrossable line should be nowhere to be found. I don't care if it's a game about killing grandmas (as much as I like grandmas) or raping babies (as much as I hate pedos), or god forbid, a game designed to sell specifically (dare I say it) to men. As long as it stays a game it's fine; it may or may not be my cup of tea but maybe it keeps someone from snapping.
I think everyone has their own 'Line-In-The-Sand', and mine is FATAL. However, if you are talking about banning or burning, then I agree. Unless FATAL is included, then I say: BURN THE BITCH! ;D
Quote from: trechriron on August 10, 2021, 08:20:02 PM
OK, so after reading the most recent pages...
You're going to defeat the SJWs by playing video games?
You seem awfully eager for us to get around to defeating the SJWs. Be patient, my friend. Rome wasn't built in a day.
Quote from: consolcwby on August 13, 2021, 10:16:57 PM
I think everyone has their own 'Line-In-The-Sand', and mine is FATAL. However, if you are talking about banning or burning, then I agree. Unless FATAL is included, then I say: BURN THE BITCH! ;D
My point is that I don't really have a line in the sand as far as text/drawings go. If we ban something because of a text, then American Psycho should probably have been banned years ago.
Quote from: Ocule on July 17, 2021, 03:56:24 PM
Quote from: Ravenswing on July 17, 2021, 02:42:10 PM
Oh noes!! The Evul, Evul SJWs will not only ruin the hobby, but destroy civilization as well en route to bringing about the heat death of the universe! They're going to send their Lawful Good Squads to force you to play their way! They're going to ban everyone from even OWNING any game that doesn't have George Soros' personal signature on them! All their products will cost $66.60 apiece!
Help us, Obi-MAGA Kenobi! You're our only hope!
(https://i.imgur.com/Bg8rNKL.jpg)
There isn't one. He's being a whiny bitch.
What was the point of this post
Just as a update to my story upthread a ways.
My issue of faith with my friends came to a head last weekend when I invited some new players to my game. I have known both of them for many years and they are great players even if there D&D 5E love affair must be overlooked. They also happen to be two married men who I have known since 1986 when we went to high school together. Both are aware of my faith and recent experiences with my friends but like me decided to try and give my friends the benefit of the doubt and join our game.
I did warn everyone ahead of time and give everyone a chance to bow out though none did.
I'm happy to report that it seems Christians and Gay Married Couples can indeed sit down to play some rpg's and within two hours be laughing and throwing dice and having a great time. I even waited till hearing back from everyone about next weeks game first in case someone brought up any issue but everyone is onboard for next weeks game!
I feel a lot better now! Maybe next time I will invite a Demorcat! Lol yeah nevermind, lets not get too crazy.
Quote from: Gameogre on August 17, 2021, 08:01:33 AM
Just as a update to my story upthread a ways.
My issue of faith with my friends came to a head last weekend when I invited some new players to my game. I have known both of them for many years and they are great players even if there D&D 5E love affair must be overlooked. They also happen to be two married men who I have known since 1986 when we went to high school together. Both are aware of my faith and recent experiences with my friends but like me decided to try and give my friends the benefit of the doubt and join our game.
I did warn everyone ahead of time and give everyone a chance to bow out though none did.
I'm happy to report that it seems Christians and Gay Married Couples can indeed sit down to play some rpg's and within two hours be laughing and throwing dice and having a great time. I even waited till hearing back from everyone about next weeks game first in case someone brought up any issue but everyone is onboard for next weeks game!
I feel a lot better now! Maybe next time I will invite a Demorcat! Lol yeah nevermind, lets not get too crazy.
Let me guess. Is it because they are gamers who just happen to be gay? They don't define everything about themselves by their 'gayness', they are just a couple of guys who happen to be gay. I'm guessing you also identify as a gamer who happens to be religious. (You may not think of yourself that way, but that is probably how other people see you.) That has been my experience with things like this.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 13, 2021, 10:26:57 PM
... Rome wasn't built in a day.
LOL - hilarious. Love it.
Quote from: jhkim on July 06, 2021, 05:26:59 PM
Quote from: S'mon on July 05, 2021, 04:46:04 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 05, 2021, 02:58:28 PM
I don't know the view of people who are vocally opposed to gay marriage. However, I play with plenty of gay and queer gamers. In my experience, most don't like associating socially with people who are opposed to gay marriage.
One of my players is gay and married or at least very long term partnered. He gets on fine with conservative gamers - I'd say he was fairly conservative himself - but he does get annoyed by some of the SJW snowflakes he encounters online whose identity is focused on 'privilege' and 'oppression'.
That's cool.
However, I feel like you've replace "anti-gay-marriage" (my words) with broader "conservative" - similar to how Gameogre replaced "Christian".
In general, gay people tend to lean liberal as a demographic - but almost no gay people are specifically anti-gay-marriage -- and in my experience, they tend to react poorly to people who are vocally anti-gay-marriage.
Queer Critiques of Gay Marriage
http://www.againstequality.org/stuff/against-equality-queer-critiques-of-gay-marriage/
Quote from: Ocule on July 03, 2021, 11:07:15 AM
Wasn't sure if this belonged here or in the rpg pundits own thread, but anyway I wanted to discuss what we can actually do about the SJWs in the hobby. I've been fighting the good fight for a while now, standing up to those sjw bullies whenever they pop their stupid little heads up. Usually i'll use logic and reason, other times i'll use sarcasm and mockery if i think they're too dense to get the former but it always ends the same. A banning from whatever website or platform it's being discussed on. Normally I wouldn't give a flying rats ass about being banned from a politically charged cesspool, but i'm starting to despair as one community after another falls to this cult. I use community as in specific groups, such as discords, facebook groups and internet forums. Othertimes it will be a game company who made a game i really used to enjoy, though i find it harder and harder to actually enjoy content while trying to overlook the obvious jabs and commentary in their actual products.
I'll buy into a game series, spend my hard earned cash on a line of products and get involved with other players finding people to play the game or discuss the hobby with. It seems great but then give it a year or so and next thing you know either the majority of the online communities or the company itself falls to woke bullshit. Often times you have a group or two that establishes itself as the officially sanctioned unofficial group, (see Genesys RPG, or Savage Worlds). The devs are usually part of that community and use it as an official platform to put out information or interact with their fans. So getting banned from a community is pretty can be pretty upsetting especially when you've already invested heavily into the game line. A bit anecdotal here, but I was banned from a community for discussing the half orcs and their origins. After talking with the admin I was told in no uncertain terms that if I had not been "right leaning" I would not have been banned and instead probably given a warning. I probably have around 400 dollars in physical merchandise from the game company associated in books and game aids. On the other hand with the Genesys RPG, there is an unofficial group that has set itself up as the defacto "community" and acts as if they were speaking on behalf of fantasy flight games and the rpg system, and the actual owners of the game don't seem to care.
Expanding this into OSR, i've found that OSR game communities are hit or miss and lately have been more miss than hit. I'm practically going blind from all the fucking rainbows. Hell even the WHFRP and 40k sites are going more and more woke to a disgusting degree. Not sure how a game with a literal rape monster ever got woke. I invested heavily into 5e D&D when it first came out as well until they got all woke (tomb of annihilation was the last straw for me) now they sit in a box in the attic.
Anyway the point to all this rambling besides just blowing off steam at my frustrations is how do we reasonably oppose these people and successfully gatekeep our hobby without getting yeeted from the internet or pretty much insta banned from a community. It has made me very hesitant to want to pick up new games because I hate to invest my time and money into a game where the devs hate me and would see me put in a fucking gulag if they could and what is apolitical or not woke today, won't necessarily be still apolitical or not woke tomorrow.
TL;DR How do we gatekeep the sjws/progressive nonsense without getting instantly yeeted off the internet.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxglAzZ-zTY
These days, just ignore them. Don't apologize to them. Not ever. If anything, post YouTube videos of how insane they are. See how ComicsGate has beat down SJWs. The SJWs are loosing. Going into hiding, etc.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on September 11, 2021, 03:03:35 PM
Quote from: Ocule on July 03, 2021, 11:07:15 AM
Wasn't sure if this belonged here or in the rpg pundits own thread, but anyway I wanted to discuss what we can actually do about the SJWs in the hobby. I've been fighting the good fight for a while now, standing up to those sjw bullies whenever they pop their stupid little heads up. Usually i'll use logic and reason, other times i'll use sarcasm and mockery if i think they're too dense to get the former but it always ends the same. A banning from whatever website or platform it's being discussed on. Normally I wouldn't give a flying rats ass about being banned from a politically charged cesspool, but i'm starting to despair as one community after another falls to this cult. I use community as in specific groups, such as discords, facebook groups and internet forums. Othertimes it will be a game company who made a game i really used to enjoy, though i find it harder and harder to actually enjoy content while trying to overlook the obvious jabs and commentary in their actual products.
I'll buy into a game series, spend my hard earned cash on a line of products and get involved with other players finding people to play the game or discuss the hobby with. It seems great but then give it a year or so and next thing you know either the majority of the online communities or the company itself falls to woke bullshit. Often times you have a group or two that establishes itself as the officially sanctioned unofficial group, (see Genesys RPG, or Savage Worlds). The devs are usually part of that community and use it as an official platform to put out information or interact with their fans. So getting banned from a community is pretty can be pretty upsetting especially when you've already invested heavily into the game line. A bit anecdotal here, but I was banned from a community for discussing the half orcs and their origins. After talking with the admin I was told in no uncertain terms that if I had not been "right leaning" I would not have been banned and instead probably given a warning. I probably have around 400 dollars in physical merchandise from the game company associated in books and game aids. On the other hand with the Genesys RPG, there is an unofficial group that has set itself up as the defacto "community" and acts as if they were speaking on behalf of fantasy flight games and the rpg system, and the actual owners of the game don't seem to care.
Expanding this into OSR, i've found that OSR game communities are hit or miss and lately have been more miss than hit. I'm practically going blind from all the fucking rainbows. Hell even the WHFRP and 40k sites are going more and more woke to a disgusting degree. Not sure how a game with a literal rape monster ever got woke. I invested heavily into 5e D&D when it first came out as well until they got all woke (tomb of annihilation was the last straw for me) now they sit in a box in the attic.
Anyway the point to all this rambling besides just blowing off steam at my frustrations is how do we reasonably oppose these people and successfully gatekeep our hobby without getting yeeted from the internet or pretty much insta banned from a community. It has made me very hesitant to want to pick up new games because I hate to invest my time and money into a game where the devs hate me and would see me put in a fucking gulag if they could and what is apolitical or not woke today, won't necessarily be still apolitical or not woke tomorrow.
TL;DR How do we gatekeep the sjws/progressive nonsense without getting instantly yeeted off the internet.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxglAzZ-zTY
These days, just ignore them. Don't apologize to them. Not ever. If anything, post YouTube videos of how insane they are. See how ComicsGate has beat down SJWs. The SJWs are loosing. Going into hiding, etc.
This bears repeating. Comicsgate has provided a blueprint for how you can expose these people for who they are with factually entertaining YT videos (Yaboi Zack and Ethan Van Sciver). But they are also producing shit successfully via Indiegogo. The fanbase is there and they will support people who are fighting this nonsense. They literally have money in their pockets and mainstream companies saying "we don't want your Bigot money!". Comicsgate is verifiably winning as more and more pros say "fuck it, I got nothing left to lose" and join up.
Hey, all! This is my first post here, and given how I found the forum I thought this would be the best thread to jump in. My name is Chris Fox. I'm an author by trade and have 40 novels in print, and 1 RPG, which we kickstarted early in 2020.
I've also been a Redditor for 11 years, and have watched it slide from a place of discussion to the echo chamber it is today. It was there I stumbled across this board, because as you can imagine they're not too pleased to see someone thinking for themselves.
I pride myself on giving back to the community. As almost everyone here can attest we were the geeks and outcasts growing up, so we accepted everyone into our hobby. By the 90s there were even *gasp* girls at the tables, many running amazing games.
When Critical Role took off and D&D became mainstream I couldn't believe my eyes. The hobby we'd loved our entire lives was being accepted, and growing, and flourishing. It was amazing!
Then the gatekeeping began. I was told for the first time, quietly of course, that I wasn't welcome at certain cons, or on certain panels because of my skin color. That the books selected for prizes were not selected by content, but rather by the person's identity. I got a real ugly look behind the Hugos and Nebulas.
I didn't understand that what was happening in books was also happening in gaming. And then WoTC started removing "racist" MTG cards. I mean, stone throwing devils? Like, what? Someone help me understand. It bothered me, but it wasn't until people started being called ists or phobes for talking about alignment that I really grasped how far this has really gone.
I've never liked alignment. I removed it from my table in the 90s, because it just felt too restrictive. But it is a part of D&D. Literal good and literal evil exist, and what spells affect them change based on their alignment. I watched poor nerds attempt to calmly explain this, and the response was horrifying.
There was no logic, only blanket ideology. You think gnomes should have a strength penalty, elves should have a dex bonus, and that demons are evil? You're an istophobe, and must repent, or be cleansed. They equate this to real world racism, and genuinely seem to feel that orcs in Middle Earth need just as much help as Uyghur Muslims in china. o.o
I think what makes this so difficult is that we grew up as the tolerant losers, because many of us were badly bullied. And so of course we let them in, and did what we could to make them comfortable. And now I get to watch Tracy Hickman get bullied on his own Facebook page into saying the words. It broke my heart.
I've reached a point where I've said no more. I won't be silent any longer. I took a stand on my YouTube channel. I have instilled hope, and heroism, and agency into my novels, and my RPGs. I will create inspiring culture, exactly how I wish, and I don't care what anyone thinks about it. My casts are diverse. I embrace LGBT+, and yeah I've got a big gay dragon. My best friend grew up trans before we had a word for it. Anyone and everyone is welcome at my table as long as they are kind to others, and there to game.
But I will not be bullied into checking boxes. I will not be told I'm an istophobe unless I bend the knee and make a list of changes. It's so nice not feeling alone any more. I've been hunting for a place like this for over a year. Every last forum I haunted going back to the late 90s has adopted the same diversity-over-content ideology. We need to stay strong, and guard the borders.
We have a huge advantage. There are millions, and millions, and millions of disenfranchised kids out there looking at this madness and saying...that's crazy. They're hunting for alternatives. I know, because I've made my living selling them books for the last six years.
Thanks for having me.
Good to meet you Chris.
Welcome to Mos Eisley. :)
Quote from: ChrisFox on September 12, 2021, 10:49:43 AM
Hey, all! This is my first post here, ...
Thanks for having me.
Awesome introduction, welcome Chris!
Quote from: King_Stannis on September 11, 2021, 08:18:45 PM
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on September 11, 2021, 03:03:35 PM
Quote from: Ocule on July 03, 2021, 11:07:15 AM
Wasn't sure if this belonged here or in the rpg pundits own thread, but anyway I wanted to discuss what we can actually do about the SJWs in the hobby. I've been fighting the good fight for a while now, standing up to those sjw bullies whenever they pop their stupid little heads up. Usually i'll use logic and reason, other times i'll use sarcasm and mockery if i think they're too dense to get the former but it always ends the same. A banning from whatever website or platform it's being discussed on. Normally I wouldn't give a flying rats ass about being banned from a politically charged cesspool, but i'm starting to despair as one community after another falls to this cult. I use community as in specific groups, such as discords, facebook groups and internet forums. Othertimes it will be a game company who made a game i really used to enjoy, though i find it harder and harder to actually enjoy content while trying to overlook the obvious jabs and commentary in their actual products.
I'll buy into a game series, spend my hard earned cash on a line of products and get involved with other players finding people to play the game or discuss the hobby with. It seems great but then give it a year or so and next thing you know either the majority of the online communities or the company itself falls to woke bullshit. Often times you have a group or two that establishes itself as the officially sanctioned unofficial group, (see Genesys RPG, or Savage Worlds). The devs are usually part of that community and use it as an official platform to put out information or interact with their fans. So getting banned from a community is pretty can be pretty upsetting especially when you've already invested heavily into the game line. A bit anecdotal here, but I was banned from a community for discussing the half orcs and their origins. After talking with the admin I was told in no uncertain terms that if I had not been "right leaning" I would not have been banned and instead probably given a warning. I probably have around 400 dollars in physical merchandise from the game company associated in books and game aids. On the other hand with the Genesys RPG, there is an unofficial group that has set itself up as the defacto "community" and acts as if they were speaking on behalf of fantasy flight games and the rpg system, and the actual owners of the game don't seem to care.
Expanding this into OSR, i've found that OSR game communities are hit or miss and lately have been more miss than hit. I'm practically going blind from all the fucking rainbows. Hell even the WHFRP and 40k sites are going more and more woke to a disgusting degree. Not sure how a game with a literal rape monster ever got woke. I invested heavily into 5e D&D when it first came out as well until they got all woke (tomb of annihilation was the last straw for me) now they sit in a box in the attic.
Anyway the point to all this rambling besides just blowing off steam at my frustrations is how do we reasonably oppose these people and successfully gatekeep our hobby without getting yeeted from the internet or pretty much insta banned from a community. It has made me very hesitant to want to pick up new games because I hate to invest my time and money into a game where the devs hate me and would see me put in a fucking gulag if they could and what is apolitical or not woke today, won't necessarily be still apolitical or not woke tomorrow.
TL;DR How do we gatekeep the sjws/progressive nonsense without getting instantly yeeted off the internet.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxglAzZ-zTY
These days, just ignore them. Don't apologize to them. Not ever. If anything, post YouTube videos of how insane they are. See how ComicsGate has beat down SJWs. The SJWs are loosing. Going into hiding, etc.
This bears repeating. Comicsgate has provided a blueprint for how you can expose these people for who they are with factually entertaining YT videos (Yaboi Zack and Ethan Van Sciver). But they are also producing shit successfully via Indiegogo. The fanbase is there and they will support people who are fighting this nonsense. They literally have money in their pockets and mainstream companies saying "we don't want your Bigot money!". Comicsgate is verifiably winning as more and more pros say "fuck it, I got nothing left to lose" and join up.
I must respectfully disagree. I'd say the OSR itself is a great blueprint of how to do things and "comicsgate" is NOT. What we should be striving for in entertainment is decentralization. OSR as a mentality and not an organization or movement. For example, there are quite a few SJW OSR products. But due to the decentralized nature of the OSR that doesn't matter. Pundit can still be right wing and release his products because there is no OSR "industry" with a hierarchy to infiltrate. It doesn't matter that Pundit doesn't like retro clones or the "BroSR. And likewise for them too. Pundit can't decide that those people aren't allowed to be OSR or say they are OSR.
Comicsgate was SUPPOSED to be the same as per Richard Myer's original intent. But what actually happened is that Comicsgate is a "movement" now. A "community" with Ethan Van Sciver at it's head. He has control of what is or isn't Comicsgate And frankly, most Comicsgate products are shit. And those are the ones that actually release on time or have even been fulfilled at all.
What happened is Ethan decided he was going to be "in charge". He also decided he was going to dictate who was "comicsgate" and who was not. And what "Comicsgate" was allowed to publish. This meant that Doug Tennapel was not Comicsgate. Because he disagreed with Ethan. And wanted more Christian centric comics. Which Ethan decided was not allowed. But Zack himself who engaged in the same behaviour as SJWs of laughing at customers and joking when he is a YEAR behind on several of his crowdfunded projects was fine. Because he kissed the ring. As Ethan says, you have to "prove you are Comicsgate" before they pay any attention to you. And when you disagree with Ethan. That's proof you aren't Comicsgate. And this has happened several times. You have a core of people who either release late or mediocre products that are making less and less money every time. And then you have the hangers on who release absolute shit at best. But that's okay because they are comicsgate. But those mean old christians who made Earthworm Jim and still continue to be a success with a customer first mentality aren't really comicsgate for some reason. The whole point of Comicsgate as a MOVEMENT TO PUT THE CUSTOMER FIRST and STOP THE SJW NEPOTISM RESULTING IN BAD COMICS. Has resulted in bad comics that only get released because of the creator kissing enough ass.
The main issue is this. Due to the decentralized nature of the OSR. drama doesn't affect the product. Drama happens all the time in the OSR as we all know. But that's fine. It doesn't mean a former trusted member of "the community" is suddenly taboo and can't identify with the OSR at all. But Comicsgate is rife with the sort of petulant and downright autistic drama that comes from turning a consumer orientated mentality of Customers First into a cult of personality centered around what ONE person wants.
I like Pundit. But I don't want him or anyone else to decide what is or is not acceptable for the OSR.I do not want the OSR to become what Comicsgate is right now. The OSR is the future. It's robust and immune to infiltration because all the SJWs will just be on their islands. Success is determined by demand and not the word of ONE person.
Quote from: ChrisFox on September 12, 2021, 10:49:43 AM
Hey, all! This is my first post here, and given how I found the forum I thought this would be the best thread to jump in. My name is Chris Fox. I'm an author by trade and have 40 novels in print, and 1 RPG, which we kickstarted early in 2020.
I've also been a Redditor for 11 years, and have watched it slide from a place of discussion to the echo chamber it is today. It was there I stumbled across this board, because as you can imagine they're not too pleased to see someone thinking for themselves.
I pride myself on giving back to the community. As almost everyone here can attest we were the geeks and outcasts growing up, so we accepted everyone into our hobby. By the 90s there were even *gasp* girls at the tables, many running amazing games.
When Critical Role took off and D&D became mainstream I couldn't believe my eyes. The hobby we'd loved our entire lives was being accepted, and growing, and flourishing. It was amazing!
Then the gatekeeping began. I was told for the first time, quietly of course, that I wasn't welcome at certain cons, or on certain panels because of my skin color. That the books selected for prizes were not selected by content, but rather by the person's identity. I got a real ugly look behind the Hugos and Nebulas.
I didn't understand that what was happening in books was also happening in gaming. And then WoTC started removing "racist" MTG cards. I mean, stone throwing devils? Like, what? Someone help me understand. It bothered me, but it wasn't until people started being called ists or phobes for talking about alignment that I really grasped how far this has really gone.
I've never liked alignment. I removed it from my table in the 90s, because it just felt too restrictive. But it is a part of D&D. Literal good and literal evil exist, and what spells affect them change based on their alignment. I watched poor nerds attempt to calmly explain this, and the response was horrifying.
There was no logic, only blanket ideology. You think gnomes should have a strength penalty, elves should have a dex bonus, and that demons are evil? You're an istophobe, and must repent, or be cleansed. They equate this to real world racism, and genuinely seem to feel that orcs in Middle Earth need just as much help as Uyghur Muslims in china. o.o
I think what makes this so difficult is that we grew up as the tolerant losers, because many of us were badly bullied. And so of course we let them in, and did what we could to make them comfortable. And now I get to watch Tracy Hickman get bullied on his own Facebook page into saying the words. It broke my heart.
I've reached a point where I've said no more. I won't be silent any longer. I took a stand on my YouTube channel. I have instilled hope, and heroism, and agency into my novels, and my RPGs. I will create inspiring culture, exactly how I wish, and I don't care what anyone thinks about it. My casts are diverse. I embrace LGBT+, and yeah I've got a big gay dragon. My best friend grew up trans before we had a word for it. Anyone and everyone is welcome at my table as long as they are kind to others, and there to game.
But I will not be bullied into checking boxes. I will not be told I'm an istophobe unless I bend the knee and make a list of changes. It's so nice not feeling alone any more. I've been hunting for a place like this for over a year. Every last forum I haunted going back to the late 90s has adopted the same diversity-over-content ideology. We need to stay strong, and guard the borders.
We have a huge advantage. There are millions, and millions, and millions of disenfranchised kids out there looking at this madness and saying...that's crazy. They're hunting for alternatives. I know, because I've made my living selling them books for the last six years.
Thanks for having me.
Welcome to the mosh pit. Don't be afraid to toss some elbows. :D
First of all, remember that the mainstream is against you.
By that I mean the media, academia, leftist advocacy groups (e.g. the SPLC), etc. Also remember this is often because of who you are: a straight white male has three strikes against him already.
Baby Boomers still run things, and there is absolutely NO reasoning with most of them. Just a few days ago one was telling me to shut up- until she noticed I wasn't- and another simply said "I DON'T WANT TO HEAR THIS" and...ran off since I 1) was not in a classroom or such and could not be bullied and 2) I was almost his size.
And the elite- ever hear of George Soros?- isn't going broke.
So what you do is what a rather peculiar fellow known as "Hakim Bey" advised decades ago- sure he was not quite right in the head and never intended for us to use it maybe but like many such people he was spot on in certain ways. He knew "the revolution" was never coming so he advised TAZ: Temporary Autonomous Zone. The idea was you wear your ideals like a turtle's shell, taking it with you, and where things seemed right plant a seed. Since this concept had no central source for anyone to smash, since this means ANYONE could be an enemy of oppressors, it would actually work.
That's how you do it. Run AD&D games with no "woke." If people like it and play it, you've made a start right there. If you are an artist or writer do the same. Don't go to any Hollywood movies, deprive them of your money- and tell anyone else why if they ask. Cancel satellite and cable services. If a commercial bashes you or yours e-mail the company and tell them why you will not buy their products.
It's not easy, opposing the leftists, they can cause you trouble. But the past fifty years have shown that if you give an inch you might as well give up everything, because that is what is going to happen.
The one thing Baby Boomer leftists cannot understand is that they've won. They control it all- THEY ARE "THE MAN," THEY ARE THE MAINSTREAM. Therefore by definition to rebel now means rebelling against THEM and what they've created. And we all know how that bunch feels about that.
Quote from: ChrisFox on September 12, 2021, 10:49:43 AM
Hey, all! This is my first post here, and given how I found the forum I thought this would be the best thread to jump in. My name is Chris Fox. I'm an author by trade and have 40 novels in print, and 1 RPG, which we kickstarted early in 2020.
{snip}
Hey Chris, Good to have you here. I've bought a few of your ebooks on writing (also a would be novelist myself) and subscribe to your mailinglist, and had no idea what you'd been through from SJWs. I hear you. We can be painted as bigots here, but frankly, most of us just want to be left alone and not have holier than though idealogues ruin our hobby.
Quote from: ChrisFox on September 12, 2021, 10:49:43 AM
I embrace LGBT+, and yeah I've got a big gay dragon.
I must admit that the purple colour did give it away.
QuoteKing Tyranno
Comicsgate was SUPPOSED to be the same as per Richard Myer's original intent. But what actually happened is that Comicsgate is a "movement" now. A "community" with Ethan Van Sciver at it's head. He has control of what is or isn't Comicsgate And frankly, most Comicsgate products are shit. And those are the ones that actually release on time or have even been fulfilled at all.
This casts serious doubts on your entire post. I have a pile of great Comicsgate Comic Books that get regularly fulfilled and have been great additions to my comic collections. Not only do they immediately go up in value, but I've created a life long Cyberfrog/Salamandroid fan out of my son who is loving the comics and the toys. Ethan delivers, as do Jon Malin and the other CG members. That's not to mention the other comics that have done very well, including Narwal, Zach, Sweetcast, etc.
Quote
What happened is Ethan decided he was going to be "in charge". He also decided he was going to dictate who was "comicsgate" and who was not. And what "Comicsgate" was allowed to publish. This meant that Doug Tennapel was not Comicsgate. Because he disagreed with Ethan.
And wanted more Christian centric comics. Which Ethan decided was not allowed.
That's not really what happened. Tennapel is fairly anti-homosexual in his views, and CG tries very hard to not to alienate any customers. Tennapel and Miller butted heads hard against that fact and it caused a falling out. Not to mention some of Miller's own actions causing friction. (like signing his name to a dead man's artwork and trying to sell it)... There's way more background there than you are going into.
Quote
But Zack himself who engaged in the same behaviour as SJWs of laughing at customers and joking when he is a YEAR behind on several of his crowdfunded projects was fine.
Lies again. I listen to Zach every day, and he honestly and earnestly engages with his customers. He ran into some issues that caused some issues to be late, but never by a great amount and most customers (including myself have been extremely happy with his offerings and the delivery schedule). Most backers realize they are dealing with an individual small business and don't get offended over a couple of months.
Quote
Because he kissed the ring. As Ethan says, you have to "prove you are Comicsgate" before they pay any attention to you. And when you disagree with Ethan. That's proof you aren't Comicsgate. And this has happened several times. You have a core of people who either release late or mediocre products that are making less and less money every time. And then you have the hangers on who release absolute shit at best. But that's okay because they are comicsgate. But those mean old christians who made Earthworm Jim and still continue to be a success with a customer first mentality aren't really comicsgate for some reason. The whole point of Comicsgate as a MOVEMENT TO PUT THE CUSTOMER FIRST and STOP THE SJW NEPOTISM RESULTING IN BAD COMICS. Has resulted in bad comics that only get released because of the creator kissing enough ass.
Zach never kissed anyone's ring. In fact Zach almost never goes on any CG live streams and is still very successful, but that is mostly because Zach doesn't do or care for livestreams anymore. It is not because he isn't invited. He and EVS disagree on quite a few things, but are still friends and work together daily. Hell, Zach regularly casts doubt on the idea of CG being a formal group. He and EVS have disagreements about that often, but they still stay friends, produce products and keep on rocking.
You keep saying their products are late or mediocre. How many do you own? As someone who owns stacks of them, it sounds like you don't know what you are talking about.
Quote
The main issue is this. Due to the decentralized nature of the OSR. drama doesn't affect the product. Drama happens all the time in the OSR as we all know. But that's fine. It doesn't mean a former trusted member of "the community" is suddenly taboo and can't identify with the OSR at all. But Comicsgate is rife with the sort of petulant and downright autistic drama that comes from turning a consumer orientated mentality of Customers First into a cult of personality centered around what ONE person wants.
Honestly, I wouldn't care at this point, as a little gatekeeping against the SJWs is what's needed. If Pundit and other creators made more money, became more visible and had more and more creators on that didn't buy into the SJW nonsense, I could put up with a little drama on the way.
Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on September 13, 2021, 01:45:29 PM
Honestly, I wouldn't care at this point, as a little gatekeeping against the SJWs is what's needed. If Pundit and other creators made more money, became more visible and had more and more creators on that didn't buy into the SJW nonsense, I could put up with a little drama on the way.
The internet lives for drama. If there isn't any, some nitwits will create it.
Slightly deviating (but still relevant), Bill Willingham (of Fables, among other comics) wrote an interesting Substack column.
https://billwillingham.substack.com/p/why-are-some-comics-pros-so-damn
Now, substitute 'game devs' for 'comics pros'...
Quote from: Ocule on July 03, 2021, 11:07:15 AM
Wasn't sure if this belonged here or in the rpg pundits own thread, but anyway I wanted to discuss what we can actually do about the SJWs in the hobby. I've been fighting the good fight for a while now, standing up to those sjw bullies whenever they pop their stupid little heads up. Usually i'll use logic and reason, other times i'll use sarcasm and mockery if i think they're too dense to get the former but it always ends the same. A banning from whatever website or platform it's being discussed on. Normally I wouldn't give a flying rats ass about being banned from a politically charged cesspool, but i'm starting to despair as one community after another falls to this cult. I use community as in specific groups, such as discords, facebook groups and internet forums. Othertimes it will be a game company who made a game i really used to enjoy, though i find it harder and harder to actually enjoy content while trying to overlook the obvious jabs and commentary in their actual products.
I'll buy into a game series, spend my hard earned cash on a line of products and get involved with other players finding people to play the game or discuss the hobby with. It seems great but then give it a year or so and next thing you know either the majority of the online communities or the company itself falls to woke bullshit. Often times you have a group or two that establishes itself as the officially sanctioned unofficial group, (see Genesys RPG, or Savage Worlds). The devs are usually part of that community and use it as an official platform to put out information or interact with their fans. So getting banned from a community is pretty can be pretty upsetting especially when you've already invested heavily into the game line. A bit anecdotal here, but I was banned from a community for discussing the half orcs and their origins. After talking with the admin I was told in no uncertain terms that if I had not been "right leaning" I would not have been banned and instead probably given a warning. I probably have around 400 dollars in physical merchandise from the game company associated in books and game aids. On the other hand with the Genesys RPG, there is an unofficial group that has set itself up as the defacto "community" and acts as if they were speaking on behalf of fantasy flight games and the rpg system, and the actual owners of the game don't seem to care.
Expanding this into OSR, i've found that OSR game communities are hit or miss and lately have been more miss than hit. I'm practically going blind from all the fucking rainbows. Hell even the WHFRP and 40k sites are going more and more woke to a disgusting degree. Not sure how a game with a literal rape monster ever got woke. I invested heavily into 5e D&D when it first came out as well until they got all woke (tomb of annihilation was the last straw for me) now they sit in a box in the attic.
Anyway the point to all this rambling besides just blowing off steam at my frustrations is how do we reasonably oppose these people and successfully gatekeep our hobby without getting yeeted from the internet or pretty much insta banned from a community. It has made me very hesitant to want to pick up new games because I hate to invest my time and money into a game where the devs hate me and would see me put in a fucking gulag if they could and what is apolitical or not woke today, won't necessarily be still apolitical or not woke tomorrow.
TL;DR How do we gatekeep the sjws/progressive nonsense without getting instantly yeeted off the internet.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxglAzZ-zTY
Thank you for creating this thread. I'm going to read the whole thing today and will reply with some of my own thoughts and suggestions.
For the moment, I just want to post a little something. So, I'm already involved in 18 different RPG projects, and didn't want another thing to have to do... but when I suggested it, no one grasped the end and ran with it. I decided to do it myself (again). It's a satire blog that I'm going to run like The Onion and Babylon Bee.
Welcome to Your Dungeon Is Racist: https://yourdungeonisracist.blogspot.com/
Please share that url around, and if you have an idea you'd like to see explored, let me know. Thanks!
VS
Hmm...
I just felt I had to share. Normally, I'm not "stop the SJWs" or whatever. I'm not that guy. I'm a moderate politically. But...
I was reading about the whole "Jessica Price" thing here on this site, so I went to see what "The Big Purple" was saying, just to get more opinions, because I don't know anything about this stuff- but I was curious. And the amount of bannings and "leave this thread" for - literally nothing!- made me feel sick. Just "I have a little bit of power over a little piece of nothing, and I'm going to act like a big kahuna, just because I can."
I honestly think those moderators are mentally ill, or they must feel so small in their day to day life they have to act like big dogs when they are running that board for a sense of self-esteem.
So, it gave me some insight into the whole thing. Shudder. I'll go wash my brain now.
Quote from: zagreus on September 24, 2021, 08:39:08 AM
Hmm...
I just felt I had to share. Normally, I'm not "stop the SJWs" or whatever. I'm not that guy. I'm a moderate politically. But...
I was reading about the whole "Jessica Price" thing here on this site, so I went to see what "The Big Purple" was saying, just to get more opinions, because I don't know anything about this stuff- but I was curious. And the amount of bannings and "leave this thread" for - literally nothing!- made me feel sick. Just "I have a little bit of power over a little piece of nothing, and I'm going to act like a big kahuna, just because I can."
I honestly think those moderators are mentally ill, or they must feel so small in their day to day life they have to act like big dogs when they are running that board for a sense of self-esteem.
So, it gave me some insight into the whole thing. Shudder. I'll go wash my brain now.
I've got a TBP thread running in the Pundit forum, if you want to check that out.
As a friend of mine noted, some of us just want to be left alone and to play our games. It's not a question of 'I don't like your game, therefore I won't play it'. Nobody gets excited over that.
It's 'I don't like your game and you shouldn't be allowed to play it without me removing the problematic elements'.
And that's how we've come to this state of affairs. Hence the freakout over the 'redlist' Ocule developed. How dare us dirty serfs start taking note of our betters and holding them to task (if nothing else, by refusing to buy their stuff)?
Quote from: zagreus on September 24, 2021, 08:39:08 AM
Hmm...
I just felt I had to share. Normally, I'm not "stop the SJWs" or whatever. I'm not that guy. I'm a moderate politically. But...
I was reading about the whole "Jessica Price" thing here on this site, so I went to see what "The Big Purple" was saying, just to get more opinions, because I don't know anything about this stuff- but I was curious. And the amount of bannings and "leave this thread" for - literally nothing!- made me feel sick. Just "I have a little bit of power over a little piece of nothing, and I'm going to act like a big kahuna, just because I can."
I honestly think those moderators are mentally ill, or they must feel so small in their day to day life they have to act like big dogs when they are running that board for a sense of self-esteem.
So, it gave me some insight into the whole thing. Shudder. I'll go wash my brain now.
Not standing up to the SJWs is how we get women like Jessica Price and all like her. I get it. You want to be the "rational centrist" Antifa firebomb small businesses and steal Air Jordans but someone said the gamer word on twitter therefore both sides are full of extremists.
No. Stand up and say "this is unacceptable behavior.". Being anti SJW is not a political statement. Despite what the media will tell you. It's a return to sanity. You don't have to be right wing to say "I just want to play my games without you people shitting it up." You can still be a "rational centerist" and just fucking say "no" to people.
I saw this stuff happen in real time. I do understand where it's coming from. Being nerdy and having those kinds of interests was not popular. Most people of that persuasion can remember being ostracized and bullied by people. So in fear of being like those mean people the nerds become accepting and well meaning to a fault. The mentality is that LGSes and similar spaces are safe from bad people. You can be gay, lesbian, or just strange in some way and you will be accepted. I had no problem with this for over 20 years. But because nerds are non-confrontational this meant that occasionally someone could turn up and be an absolute sperg with no consequence. It used to be saying to that guy "stop it. You're bothering everyone." was non political. Harmless. The right thing to do. Not that that always happened, sometimes the store owner didn't want to be seen as mean. But it was understandable when those store owners finally put their foot down.
But those spergs then became male feminists, later they started identifying as a sheet of a4 paper neatly folded into a printer. And suddenly it wasn't okay to tell these guys to stop being bastards. It was somehow "sexist" or "transphobic" to tell the 30 year old creep to stop harassing the 16 year old girls who just wanted to play Magic. Over an 8 year period I saw my favorite LGS turn from a place full of all sorts of colorful people including real women and girls who wanted to engage with the hobby to a den of frankly all white 30 to 50 year old mentally ill men who scared off the women due to being creeps and not being told "NO!"by the people in power at the LGS.
This was a microcosom of RPGs and tabletop gaming in general. You're not sexist, you're not bigoted, hell you don't even have to be transphobic to at least point out and stop bad people from doing bad things and stop them from using politics as a deflection for their bad behavior.
Quote from: King Tyranno on September 24, 2021, 09:35:25 AM
Quote from: zagreus on September 24, 2021, 08:39:08 AM
Hmm...
I just felt I had to share. Normally, I'm not "stop the SJWs" or whatever. I'm not that guy. I'm a moderate politically. But...
I was reading about the whole "Jessica Price" thing here on this site, so I went to see what "The Big Purple" was saying, just to get more opinions, because I don't know anything about this stuff- but I was curious. And the amount of bannings and "leave this thread" for - literally nothing!- made me feel sick. Just "I have a little bit of power over a little piece of nothing, and I'm going to act like a big kahuna, just because I can."
I honestly think those moderators are mentally ill, or they must feel so small in their day to day life they have to act like big dogs when they are running that board for a sense of self-esteem.
So, it gave me some insight into the whole thing. Shudder. I'll go wash my brain now.
Not standing up to the SJWs is how we get women like Jessica Price and all like her. I get it. You want to be the "rational centrist" Antifa firebomb small businesses and steal Air Jordans but someone said the gamer word on twitter therefore both sides are full of extremists.
No. Stand up and say "this is unacceptable behavior.". Being anti SJW is not a political statement. Despite what the media will tell you. It's a return to sanity. You don't have to be right wing to say "I just want to play my games without you people shitting it up." You can still be a "rational centerist" and just fucking say "no" to people.
I saw this stuff happen in real time. I do understand where it's coming from. Being nerdy and having those kinds of interests was not popular. Most people of that persuasion can remember being ostracized and bullied by people. So in fear of being like those mean people the nerds become accepting and well meaning to a fault. The mentality is that LGSes and similar spaces are safe from bad people. You can be gay, lesbian, or just strange in some way and you will be accepted. I had no problem with this for over 20 years. But because nerds are non-confrontational this meant that occasionally someone could turn up and be an absolute sperg with no consequence. It used to be saying to that guy "stop it. You're bothering everyone." was non political. Harmless. The right thing to do. Not that that always happened, sometimes the store owner didn't want to be seen as mean. But it was understandable when those store owners finally put their foot down.
But those spergs then became male feminists, later they started identifying as a sheet of a4 paper neatly folded into a printer. And suddenly it wasn't okay to tell these guys to stop being bastards. It was somehow "sexist" or "transphobic" to tell the 30 year old creep to stop harassing the 16 year old girls who just wanted to play Magic. Over an 8 year period I saw my favorite LGS turn from a place full of all sorts of colorful people including real women and girls who wanted to engage with the hobby to a den of frankly all white 30 to 50 year old mentally ill men who scared off the women due to being creeps and not being told "NO!"by the people in power at the LGS.
This was a microcosom of RPGs and tabletop gaming in general. You're not sexist, you're not bigoted, hell you don't even have to be transphobic to at least point out and stop bad people from doing bad things and stop them from using politics as a deflection for their bad behavior.
Thanks- you know, it's funny, I appreciate this response even if I don't personally agree with everything in it. I think this is what separates this site- in particular what's going on over at "the big purple". People can agree to disagree and it's cool.
One of the things I did, when I ran a new game, is I chose Ars Magica as the game I ran. In part because it is set in 1220 A.D. Nothing is politically correct in 1220 AD. So when I recruited new players, they would know that going in. No bitching- we're playing in 1220 AD! This isn't Forgotten Realms, where you can play your precious whatever fantasy land concept. You can play your bizarro concept if you want, and the world will react accordingly.
It does help having mostly players in their 40's, though.
Quote from: King Tyranno on September 24, 2021, 09:35:25 AM
It was somehow "sexist" or "transphobic" to tell the 30 year old creep to stop harassing the 16 year old girls who just wanted to play Magic. Over an 8 year period I saw my favorite LGS turn from a place full of all sorts of colorful people including real women and girls who wanted to engage with the hobby to a den of frankly all white 30 to 50 year old mentally ill men who scared off the women due to being creeps and not being told "NO!"by the people in power at the LGS.
This was a microcosom of RPGs and tabletop gaming in general. You're not sexist, you're not bigoted, hell you don't even have to be transphobic to at least point out and stop bad people from doing bad things and stop them from using politics as a deflection for their bad behavior.
For me, it's non-political to stop 30 to 50 year old creeps of any sort from harassing teenage girls and young women at game stores. I'm signed on for that. I don't play in game stores, but my son does. We both play in a lot of local conventions, and try to stand up for decent behavior standards.
Quote from: jhkim on September 24, 2021, 12:41:44 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on September 24, 2021, 09:35:25 AM
It was somehow "sexist" or "transphobic" to tell the 30 year old creep to stop harassing the 16 year old girls who just wanted to play Magic. Over an 8 year period I saw my favorite LGS turn from a place full of all sorts of colorful people including real women and girls who wanted to engage with the hobby to a den of frankly all white 30 to 50 year old mentally ill men who scared off the women due to being creeps and not being told "NO!"by the people in power at the LGS.
This was a microcosom of RPGs and tabletop gaming in general. You're not sexist, you're not bigoted, hell you don't even have to be transphobic to at least point out and stop bad people from doing bad things and stop them from using politics as a deflection for their bad behavior.
For me, it's non-political to stop 30 to 50 year old creeps of any sort from harassing teenage girls and young women at game stores. I'm signed on for that. I don't play in game stores, but my son does. We both play in a lot of local conventions, and try to stand up for decent behavior standards.
Yes, but the social justice types have created an environment where politics do matter, and even abstaining from the politics is seen as political, and abusive people can and do ride that system into situations where they have some amount of power over others.
I don't care who you are, of course politics matters. Sometimes it's okay to agree to disagree (like what the highest marginal tax rate should be) and sometimes you don't want to associate with someone who's 'solution' to illegal immigration is automated machine guns at the border.
"It's just my opinion, man" isn't a sufficient justification for people to feel compelled to hang out with you just because you're otherwise interested in the same niche hobby.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 24, 2021, 02:39:39 PM
I don't care who you are, of course politics matters. Sometimes it's okay to agree to disagree (like what the highest marginal tax rate should be) and sometimes you don't want to associate with someone who's 'solution' to illegal immigration is automated machine guns at the border.
"It's just my opinion, man" isn't a sufficient justification for people to feel compelled to hang out with you just because you're otherwise interested in the same niche hobby.
We don't need automatic machine guns. Just a wall.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 24, 2021, 02:39:39 PM"It's just my opinion, man" isn't a sufficient justification for people to feel compelled to hang out with you just because you're otherwise interested in the same niche hobby.
" Everything and anything is political" isn't a sufficient justification for people to feel compelled to hang out with you just because you're otherwise interested in the same niche hobby.
Funny how that works both ways.
Quote from: King Tyranno on September 24, 2021, 02:44:18 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 24, 2021, 02:39:39 PM
I don't care who you are, of course politics matters. Sometimes it's okay to agree to disagree (like what the highest marginal tax rate should be) and sometimes you don't want to associate with someone who's 'solution' to illegal immigration is automated machine guns at the border.
"It's just my opinion, man" isn't a sufficient justification for people to feel compelled to hang out with you just because you're otherwise interested in the same niche hobby.
We don't need automatic machine guns. Just a wall.
Or if no wall then at least a bridge
I don't know if you noticed, but the OP is about how SJWs (like me) are taking over the hobby.
Which is weird since I've been playing for 35 years .
But I don't have an issue finding people I enjoy playing with. And I wouldn't enjoy playing with people who can't help but share how the election was stolen (it wasn't), or how I need to do my own research on vaccines from some very disreputable sources (I don't, and if you look at reputable sources the benefits of vaccines are unmistakable), or how 'representation' like including wheelchairs for adventurers somehow ruins the hobby. In this day and age, what I'd consider the worst sorts of MRA incel white-supremacist assholes can't help but reveal themselves, and my gaming is better for it.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 24, 2021, 03:49:14 PM
I don't know if you noticed, but the OP is about how SJWs (like me) are taking over the hobby.
Which is weird since I've been playing for 35 years .
But I don't have an issue finding people I enjoy playing with. And I wouldn't enjoy playing with people who can't help but share how the election was stolen (it wasn't), or how I need to do my own research on vaccines from some very disreputable sources (I don't, and if you look at reputable sources the benefits of vaccines are unmistakable), or how 'representation' like including wheelchairs for adventurers somehow ruins the hobby. In this day and age, what I'd consider the worst sorts of MRA incel white-supremacist assholes can't help but reveal themselves, and my gaming is better for it.
The thread (and the larger discussion) is also about how the SJW movement has enabled shitty, asshole behavior from it's most vocal and prominent proponets.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 24, 2021, 03:49:14 PM
I don't know if you noticed, but the OP is about how SJWs (like me) are taking over the hobby.
Which is weird since I've been playing for 35 years .
But I don't have an issue finding people I enjoy playing with. And I wouldn't enjoy playing with people who can't help but share how the election was stolen (it wasn't), or how I need to do my own research on vaccines from some very disreputable sources (I don't, and if you look at reputable sources the benefits of vaccines are unmistakable), or how 'representation' like including wheelchairs for adventurers somehow ruins the hobby. In this day and age, what I'd consider the worst sorts of MRA incel white-supremacist assholes can't help but reveal themselves, and my gaming is better for it.
Wait an hour. Then edit your post. You'll know why soon. Also why the fuck are you here?
And I thought someone said two seconds ago that you can't spot crazy.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 24, 2021, 03:49:14 PM
I don't know if you noticed, but the OP is about how SJWs (like me) are taking over the hobby.
Which is weird since I've been playing for 35 years .
But I don't have an issue finding people I enjoy playing with. And I wouldn't enjoy playing with people who can't help but share how the election was stolen (it wasn't), or how I need to do my own research on vaccines from some very disreputable sources (I don't, and if you look at reputable sources the benefits of vaccines are unmistakable), or how 'representation' like including wheelchairs for adventurers somehow ruins the hobby. In this day and age, what I'd consider the worst sorts of MRA incel white-supremacist assholes can't help but reveal themselves, and my gaming is better for it.
You sound like a fun, sophist kind of guy.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 24, 2021, 03:49:14 PM
I don't know if you noticed, but the OP is about how SJWs (like me) are taking over the hobby.
Which is weird since I've been playing for 35 years .
But I don't have an issue finding people I enjoy playing with. And I wouldn't enjoy playing with people who can't help but share how the election was stolen (it wasn't), or how I need to do my own research on vaccines from some very disreputable sources (I don't, and if you look at reputable sources the benefits of vaccines are unmistakable), or how 'representation' like including wheelchairs for adventurers somehow ruins the hobby. In this day and age, what I'd consider the worst sorts of MRA incel white-supremacist assholes can't help but reveal themselves, and my gaming is better for it.
I can see you not wanting to play with people whose politics are on the other extreme of yours, but - honestly- how the F is an "adventurer" going to be adventuring in a wheelchair? This is where the game becomes ABOUT representation rather than telling a story/running a game that makes any sense.
Unless the GM is telling a story where the "adventure" is in A) a modern day city or B) magical PC fantasy land with tons of wheelchair accessible ramps or C) said wheelchair bound PC is a high-level wizard and just has her wheelchair float about at will (which also begs the question- why doesn't she have some other sort of solution for her handicap than a "floating wheelchair") isn't it JUST for representation?
Let's send the Wheelchair bound PC, assuming she's a wizard, and send her on a typical adventure- in- let's say Greyhawk. She's dead. Assuming she survives apprenticeship, she doesn't get past first level. It does not happen. Unless it's scenario A or B and the world is built around handicapped characters. And ALL the pseudo-medieval trappings are just completely thrown out. There are other worlds out there, I suppose, but who is playing in those? (i.e. playing D&D in worlds lacking pseudo medieval trappings) How many are playing in games with a ramp to the dangerous situation?
"Oooh, there's a convenient paved ramp to the dragon's lair... Let's go!"
Quote from: zagreus on September 24, 2021, 04:17:52 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 24, 2021, 03:49:14 PM
I don't know if you noticed, but the OP is about how SJWs (like me) are taking over the hobby.
Which is weird since I've been playing for 35 years .
But I don't have an issue finding people I enjoy playing with. And I wouldn't enjoy playing with people who can't help but share how the election was stolen (it wasn't), or how I need to do my own research on vaccines from some very disreputable sources (I don't, and if you look at reputable sources the benefits of vaccines are unmistakable), or how 'representation' like including wheelchairs for adventurers somehow ruins the hobby. In this day and age, what I'd consider the worst sorts of MRA incel white-supremacist assholes can't help but reveal themselves, and my gaming is better for it.
I can see you not wanting to play with people whose politics are on the other extreme of yours, but - honestly- how the F is an "adventurer" going to be adventuring in a wheelchair? This is where the game becomes ABOUT representation rather than telling a story/running a game that makes any sense.
Unless the GM is telling a story where the "adventure" is in A) a modern day city or B) magical PC fantasy land with tons of wheelchair accessible ramps or C) said wheelchair bound PC is a high-level wizard and just has her wheelchair float about at will (which also begs the question- why doesn't she have some other sort of solution for her handicap than a "floating wheelchair") isn't it JUST for representation?
Let's send the Wheelchair bound PC, assuming she's a wizard, and send her on a typical adventure- in- let's say Greyhawk. She's dead. Assuming she survives apprenticeship, she doesn't get past first level. It does not happen. Unless it's scenario A or B and the world is built around handicapped characters. And ALL the pseudo-medieval trappings are just completely thrown out. There are other worlds out there, I suppose, but who is playing in those? (i.e. playing D&D in worlds lacking pseudo medieval trappings) How many are playing in games with a ramp to the dangerous situation?
"Oooh, there's a convenient paved ramp to the dragon's lair... Let's go!"
After a certain point missing limbs just become a minor inconvenience to an adventurer because...magic is a thing.
Quote from: zagreus on September 24, 2021, 04:17:52 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 24, 2021, 03:49:14 PM
I don't know if you noticed, but the OP is about how SJWs (like me) are taking over the hobby.
Which is weird since I've been playing for 35 years .
But I don't have an issue finding people I enjoy playing with. And I wouldn't enjoy playing with people who can't help but share how the election was stolen (it wasn't), or how I need to do my own research on vaccines from some very disreputable sources (I don't, and if you look at reputable sources the benefits of vaccines are unmistakable), or how 'representation' like including wheelchairs for adventurers somehow ruins the hobby. In this day and age, what I'd consider the worst sorts of MRA incel white-supremacist assholes can't help but reveal themselves, and my gaming is better for it.
I can see you not wanting to play with people whose politics are on the other extreme of yours, but - honestly- how the F is an "adventurer" going to be adventuring in a wheelchair? This is where the game becomes ABOUT representation rather than telling a story/running a game that makes any sense.
Unless the GM is telling a story where the "adventure" is in A) a modern day city or B) magical PC fantasy land with tons of wheelchair accessible ramps or C) said wheelchair bound PC is a high-level wizard and just has her wheelchair float about at will (which also begs the question- why doesn't she have some other sort of solution for her handicap than a "floating wheelchair") isn't it JUST for representation?
Let's send the Wheelchair bound PC, assuming she's a wizard, and send her on a typical adventure- in- let's say Greyhawk. She's dead. Assuming she survives apprenticeship, she doesn't get past first level. It does not happen. Unless it's scenario A or B and the world is built around handicapped characters. And ALL the pseudo-medieval trappings are just completely thrown out. There are other worlds out there, I suppose, but who is playing in those? (i.e. playing D&D in worlds lacking pseudo medieval trappings) How many are playing in games with a ramp to the dangerous situation?
"Oooh, there's a convenient paved ramp to the dragon's lair... Let's go!"
Agreed and seconded.
They essentially want to play Superman and not have a vulnerability to kryptonite. The Flash without being limited by the Speed Force. Batman having the strength of Superman. In short all the benefits of a character without can't disadvantages.
Try and say otherwise and one is an abelist incel misogynistic. Fuck the SJW Twitter living cuck soy drinking normies. They can't help but reveal themselves and it makes it easier to just cut them from my gaming and life.
Quote from: zagreus on September 24, 2021, 04:17:52 PM
Unless the GM is telling a story where the "adventure" is in A) a modern day city or B) magical PC fantasy land with tons of wheelchair accessible ramps or C) said wheelchair bound PC is a high-level wizard and just has her wheelchair float about at will (which also begs the question- why doesn't she have some other sort of solution for her handicap than a "floating wheelchair") isn't it JUST for representation?
Worse, it becomes affectation. The appearance of disability as a fashion statement.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 24, 2021, 03:49:14 PM
....
And I wouldn't enjoy playing with people who can't help but share..<snip>..how 'representation' like including wheelchairs for adventurers somehow ruins the hobby.
.....
I wouldn't say it ruins the hobby, but it requires that the DM run a very specific and unusual game, with specific intention to make that concept work.
-Low magic, but the detriments of trying to run a nonmagical wheelchair through swordplay or dungeoneering are hand-waved.
-High magic, but yet healing magic doesn't solve the problem.
Greetings!
*Laughing* Any soy-drinking, sniveling crybaby attempting to play a wheelchair-bound cripple in my world would face a swift and grim fate--as the rest of the athletic, in-shape player characters flee for their lives from pursuing Tyrannosaurs--the slow, lagging-behind cripple would be the first character pounced on and fucking devoured by the Tyrannosaurs!
Awww--time to roll up a new character, cupcake! ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
A wheelchair has been used to help tell some great stories IMHO. Brandon Stark. Xavier. Probably a few others. Physically challenged characters have existed in Mythology as well There are a lot of games out there that have game mechanics that would enable a character concept where a wheelchair bound individual could participate. Sure, in a High Fantasy context; physically challenged characters wouldn't be played unless the player wanted to play one-for whatever reason...I wouldn't object to it. YMMV
If a character can figure out how to bring a centaur to the adventure, then you probably can figure out how to bring a wheelchair on an adventure.
And maybe sometimes that means being carried around some of the time.
Different folks, different strokes. My gaming isn't threatened when others choose to make disadvantaged characters easier to include. I certainly don't feel the need to rain on their parade by announcing in advance that any PC with a disability will get eaten by dinosaurs, rather than give it an honest try. No need to put on training wheels - a character that chooses disadvantages has to overcome those disadvantages - but I can definitely see the appeal.
And yes, there are clearly numerous characters in at least source-adjacent material that deal with limited mobility in one form or another. As for magic as a solution? Depends on the campaign.
I kinda feel like a world with dragons that features numerous retired adventurers who are missing a limb or two makes the world feel more realistic, not less.
Quote from: SHARK on September 24, 2021, 11:38:32 PM
*Laughing* Any soy-drinking, sniveling crybaby attempting to play a wheelchair-bound cripple in my world would face a swift and grim fate--as the rest of the athletic, in-shape player characters flee for their lives from pursuing Tyrannosaurs--the slow, lagging-behind cripple would be the first character pounced on and fucking devoured by the Tyrannosaurs!
Awww--time to roll up a new character, cupcake! ;D
(sarcasm)
Yeah, that reminds me of this dumbass fantasy series where there's a bunch of pathetic, sniveling midgets who can't fight worth a damn, ride, or even run. They're dragged along by the real heroes. In a serious game, the real heroes would have just ditched them and taken their stuff, and those loser snowflakes would have had to roll up new characters.
(/sarcasm)
Seriously, I haven't had much wheelchairs, but I've had lots of fun with other weak and/or disabled characters in my games. I had a previous topic "Cool uses of disabilities in games" (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/cool-uses-of-disabilities-in-games/) that covered some of these, but there are more that come to mind.
Quote from: jhkim on September 25, 2021, 02:41:59 PM
(sarcasm)
Yeah, that reminds me of this dumbass fantasy series where there's a bunch of pathetic, sniveling midgets who can't fight worth a damn, ride, or even run. They're dragged along by the real heroes. In a serious game, the real heroes would have just ditched them and taken their stuff, and those loser snowflakes would have had to roll up new characters.
(/sarcasm)
You're not very good at this. You should avoid black text in the future.
deadDMwalking avoids talking about anything in good faith. Its not worth discussing with him. He feigns politeness, but sees anybody that disagrees with him as a moron/evil/ignorant/ bad person.
This is a person with a mind made up that they have figured out who is good and who is bad, and anything that tries to add nuance to the picture are just duplicitous people trying to avoid judgement.
Quote from: Prairie Dragon on September 25, 2021, 12:05:00 AM
A wheelchair has been used to help tell some great stories IMHO. Brandon Stark. Xavier. Probably a few others. ...
There is a difference between stories, and a game where you have to sit down with three other people to play that a lot of "Combat wheelchair advocates" are missing.
Brandon Stark, Xavier, are fine in their media. But at a gaming table?
Nobody liked old school netrunning mechanics back in the day when everyone else was put on pause, and the hacker ran his little side quest for 20 minutes defeating the ICE in the buildings security.
The latest editions of any cyberpunk game have all taken steps to eliminate that mode of play in their game mechanics.
Specifically because
nobody liked it. Characters with astral projection abilities fall into the same category. Not a common feature in games because it invariably runs into the same old school netrunning issues at the table during play.
RPGs are derivative of wargames. And they work best when the PC group (which are all variants of a Spec Ops team, no matter the genre), are able to seamlessly work
together during the action.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 24, 2021, 05:25:39 PM
Worse, it becomes affectation. The appearance of disability as a fashion statement.
It is also a way of making all the other players in the group continually conform their PCs actions around the specific limitations one character brings to the party.
What's hilarious is that the "combat wheelchair" is being heavily pushed within the D&D sphere as a 'viable' thing.
Yet in all the 'combat wheelchair' art I have seen, the 'PC' still has both legs... WTF!? Do these people not realize that in 5e D&D RAW that the PC will be able to walk the first time they get hit with any kind of magical healing?
Its rather interesting how their
power gaming 'combat wheelchair' fantasy art seems to depict lots of paraplegics, but no amputee's...
To bring it back on topic:
"How do we stop the D&D SJWs now"We Don't. We play the long game, and go around them.
We set up parallel institutions and games, then deny the SJWs entry as they inevitably run everything they control into the ground.
Let them eat cake. It's the only way.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 25, 2021, 12:04:51 PM
If a character can figure out how to bring a centaur to the adventure, then you probably can figure out how to bring a wheelchair on an adventure.
And maybe sometimes that means being carried around some of the time.
Different folks, different strokes. My gaming isn't threatened when others choose to make disadvantaged characters easier to include. I certainly don't feel the need to rain on their parade by announcing in advance that any PC with a disability will get eaten by dinosaurs, rather than give it an honest try. No need to put on training wheels - a character that chooses disadvantages has to overcome those disadvantages - but I can definitely see the appeal.
And yes, there are clearly numerous characters in at least source-adjacent material that deal with limited mobility in one form or another. As for magic as a solution? Depends on the campaign.
I kinda feel like a world with dragons that features numerous retired adventurers who are missing a limb or two makes the world feel more realistic, not less.
See, here's the thing-
I agree with this to a certain extent.
But Brandon Stark wasn't an "ass-kicking adventurer". He was sitting in the back, for the most part. Or he was warging, and gaining intelligence. Or doing some other stuff, and needed to be protected- a lot. If someone wanted to play a handicapped character, and the character was actually handicapped, where it was part of the story. Okay, I'd be for it. Brandon Stark was a noble, needed to be protected, there was a story around it that made sense.
But that's truly not the impression I get from the 5E art anyway. It's "I'm handicapped, and I'm going an adventure to kick some monster ass!".
Uh, no, you're not. You're in a wheelchair. You need the big guy to carry you to the destination. And you need someone to push you. And you'll be travelling in plenty of places where being pushed in a chair just won't be possible. And you need to the warriors to protect you. And there should be a good reason for them to do so. You're a liability. Unless there's a story reason they should do so (aka Brandon Stark) why is this happening?
Another poster mentioned Professor X. Sure, Professor X is a modern day character. That makes sense. Hell, one of my favorite characters is "The Chief" from Doom Patrol.
It's the 5E "I'm in a wheelchair to go dungeon crawling" art that kinda got my goat.
I could see a Wheelchair bound character thriving in Call of Cthulu, where they sit and do research and never confront the mythos- except in tomes brought back by more active investigators. Going to the library and stuff, and staying in a secure location. But they better hope to god the cultists don't find them...
But again, this isn't a fantasy adventure character though. A fantasy adventure character in a wheelchair, I still maintain is pure virtue signaling. Your average player is not George R.R. Martin.
The combat wheelchair problem isn't that its rediculous. Its that the same people that say that chainmail bikinis are rediculous and not to be allowed, insist that this ISN'T rediculous and your not allowed to find them rediculous.
This isn't the first time burger kids fun club characters have appeared in media. But only recently has it been demanded that you MUST adore and love them. Or at least never voice dissent.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 25, 2021, 12:04:51 PM
If a character can figure out how to bring a centaur to the adventure, then you probably can figure out how to bring a wheelchair on an adventure.
If someone wanted to play a centaur, I would not make the campaign "centaur accessible". They would deal with the consequences of being a huge horse person in a human town or dungeon.
Just like a character in a wheelchair.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 25, 2021, 06:36:42 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 25, 2021, 12:04:51 PM
If a character can figure out how to bring a centaur to the adventure, then you probably can figure out how to bring a wheelchair on an adventure.
If someone wanted to play a centaur, I would not make the campaign "centaur accessible". They would deal with the consequences of being a huge horse person in a human town or dungeon.
Just like a character in a wheelchair.
Had this with planescape s goat dudes
In my more 'espionage' fantasy game, I have my party of weirdos disguise themselves all the time to not stand out.
Quote from: Jaeger on September 25, 2021, 04:37:55 PM
Quote from: Prairie Dragon on September 25, 2021, 12:05:00 AM
A wheelchair has been used to help tell some great stories IMHO. Brandon Stark. Xavier. Probably a few others. ...
There is a difference between stories, and a game where you have to sit down with three other people to play that a lot of "Combat wheelchair advocates" are missing.
Brandon Stark, Xavier, are fine in their media. But at a gaming table?
Nobody liked old school netrunning mechanics back in the day when everyone else was put on pause, and the hacker ran his little side quest for 20 minutes defeating the ICE in the buildings security.
The latest editions of any cyberpunk game have all taken steps to eliminate that mode of play in their game mechanics.
Specifically because nobody liked it.
Characters with astral projection abilities fall into the same category. Not a common feature in games because it invariably runs into the same old school netrunning issues at the table during play.
RPGs are derivative of wargames. And they work best when the PC group (which are all variants of a Spec Ops team, no matter the genre), are able to seamlessly work together during the action.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 24, 2021, 05:25:39 PM
Worse, it becomes affectation. The appearance of disability as a fashion statement.
It is also a way of making all the other players in the group continually conform their PCs actions around the specific limitations one character brings to the party.
What's hilarious is that the "combat wheelchair" is being heavily pushed within the D&D sphere as a 'viable' thing.
Yet in all the 'combat wheelchair' art I have seen, the 'PC' still has both legs... WTF!? Do these people not realize that in 5e D&D RAW that the PC will be able to walk the first time they get hit with any kind of magical healing?
Its rather interesting how their power gaming 'combat wheelchair' fantasy art seems to depict lots of paraplegics, but no amputee's...
To bring it back on topic: "How do we stop the D&D SJWs now"
We Don't. We play the long game, and go around them.
We set up parallel institutions and games, then deny the SJWs entry as they inevitably run everything they control into the ground.
Let them eat cake. It's the only way.
Greetings!
Exactly, Jaeger!
If the campaign has sufficient magic to heal characters of severe injuries--then no Player Character is ever going to be stuck in a fucking wheelchair.
If the campaign is generally low-magic, and such healing magic is not available to heal a character stuck in a fucking wheelchair--then the crippled character is a constant liability, and it's just stupid and asinine to consider bringing such a crippled character seeking to accompany the other healthy, normal player characters as they go mountain climbing, swimming across rivers, and delving into subterranean dungeons. Of course, infiltrating subterranean dungeons no doubt often incudes running swiftly up and down stairs, climbing up ropes to scale walls or earth tubes or tunnels, climbing in and out of jagged, steep chasms, or making one's way along treacherous, narrow ledges where people have to hug the wall and proceed single-file, as they overlook a black abyss below them.
Such dangerous environments are often quite challenging even for healthy, athletic, normal people to negotiate successfully. How much more difficult would such endeavors be for a crippled character stuck in a wheelchair? I would say not merely "difficult"--but assuming a low-magic world where such a character cannot get healed of such crippling injuries--it would be simply impossible.
Geesus. Stop with the fucking Fetishization and pandering for virtue-signaling. Stop trying to embrace stupid fucking pandering character ideas designed to keep everyone else's attention and concern on "How can we help the fucking cripple?"--and make up a properly-functioning, normal character to begin with. The rest of the group surely doesn't want to always be carrying the fucking crippled person around, and always needing to make allowances and plans and work-arounds just to accommodate keeping this weak character alive.
It would be far more efficient to let the Tyrannosaurs devour the wheelchair cripple--or retire such a pathetic character at the nearest town and recruit a new character that can actually carry their own weight and keep up with the rest of the group as they go on dangerous adventures.
No outfit of warriors--in ancient times or modern times--would ever bring along some crippled character stuck in a wheelchair. The very idea of such a pathetic character making it out in the wilderness is fucking laughable. Hell, even in our modern era, in uber coddled cities with many, many conveniences and allowances, people in wheelchairs experience far more difficulties and are confronted with impossible activities. In an ancient or medieval environment? The whole idea is just stupid and weird.
As for Xavier and a few others, yeah, they exist in TV/Movies where everyone around them can coddle them, or the Director's can ensure they are never fucked. That isn't dungeon-crawling in a brutal, primitive medieval world.
Even Ivar from Vikings, while an unusual character, is still a character in a TV story, where everything is set and directed to feature him and cater to him. Ivar historically was also a Viking *noble*--so even on some quasi-hstorical basis, had lots of people catering to him, and tolerating him. A *COMMONER* Viking would have been stuck living in the poor section of town down by the fiord, reduced to fishing just to stay alive. A crippled *COMMONER* Viking certainly wouldn't be going raiding with the warriors. He'd be lucky to successfully raid his chicken-coop for eggs every morning.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
There's always Ravenor, the WH40K Inquisitor with god-level psyker powers nested within an armoured, life-supporting hoverchair. If he were an RPG character, he'd be the posterboy for what happens when you let some players go to town with getting points back from flaws along with a GM that doesn't ensure that flaws that don't remain meaningful don't really count as flaws anymore.
Quote from: SHARK on September 25, 2021, 07:55:28 PM
No outfit of warriors--in ancient times or modern times--would ever bring along some crippled character stuck in a wheelchair. The very idea of such a pathetic character making it out in the wilderness is fucking laughable. Hell, even in our modern era, in uber coddled cities with many, many conveniences and allowances, people in wheelchairs experience far more difficulties and are confronted with impossible activities. In an ancient or medieval environment? The whole idea is just stupid and weird.
As for Xavier and a few others, yeah, they exist in TV/Movies where everyone around them can coddle them, or the Director's can ensure they are never fucked. That isn't dungeon-crawling in a brutal, primitive medieval world.
This makes no sense. Xavier isn't a weakling protected by plot. He's a telepath and mind controller who if anything is hugely overpowered. The power he brings to the team is enormous. Most enemies could be simply taken over and become aids that help act further. If anything, it's the opposite - the writers and directors twist the plot around so that for mysterious reasons they *don't* bring him and *don't* use his power to just win automatically.
In an X-men RPG, I think Xavier would be unsuitable as a PC not because he's too weak, but because he's overpowered.
Yes, in a setting with no magic or superpowers at all, then a disabled PC likely doesn't make sense. But given any degree of powers, then yeah - I've seen plenty of characters who had various disabilities but their powers outweighed their weaknesses.
Quote from: SHARK on September 25, 2021, 07:55:28 PM
Even Ivar from Vikings, while an unusual character, is still a character in a TV story, where everything is set and directed to feature him and cater to him. Ivar historically was also a Viking *noble*--so even on some quasi-hstorical basis, had lots of people catering to him, and tolerating him. A *COMMONER* Viking would have been stuck living in the poor section of town down by the fiord, reduced to fishing just to stay alive. A crippled *COMMONER* Viking certainly wouldn't be going raiding with the warriors. He'd be lucky to successfully raid his chicken-coop for eggs every morning.
So what? Are you suggesting that PCs can't be nobles?
In my old vikings campaign, the group would bring their prophetess Silksif with them (who was a PC). She wasn't disabled - but she was no fighter and not particularly athletic. Even if she was disabled, though, they'd still want to bring her along because she was vital. They wanted the spirits on their side - and in game terms, she was magically powerful.
You do your game however you like - but the line of reasoning you have here doesn't make sense. Characters can have powers, including social power, that outweigh weaknesses.
Quote from: jhkim on September 26, 2021, 04:13:13 AM
Quote from: SHARK on September 25, 2021, 07:55:28 PM
No outfit of warriors--in ancient times or modern times--would ever bring along some crippled character stuck in a wheelchair. The very idea of such a pathetic character making it out in the wilderness is fucking laughable. Hell, even in our modern era, in uber coddled cities with many, many conveniences and allowances, people in wheelchairs experience far more difficulties and are confronted with impossible activities. In an ancient or medieval environment? The whole idea is just stupid and weird.
As for Xavier and a few others, yeah, they exist in TV/Movies where everyone around them can coddle them, or the Director's can ensure they are never fucked. That isn't dungeon-crawling in a brutal, primitive medieval world.
This makes no sense. Xavier isn't a weakling protected by plot. He's a telepath and mind controller who if anything is hugely overpowered. The power he brings to the team is enormous. Most enemies could be simply taken over and become aids that help act further. If anything, it's the opposite - the writers and directors twist the plot around so that for mysterious reasons they *don't* bring him and *don't* use his power to just win automatically.
In an X-men RPG, I think Xavier would be unsuitable as a PC not because he's too weak, but because he's overpowered.
Yes, in a setting with no magic or superpowers at all, then a disabled PC likely doesn't make sense. But given any degree of powers, then yeah - I've seen plenty of characters who had various disabilities but their powers outweighed their weaknesses.
Quote from: SHARK on September 25, 2021, 07:55:28 PM
Even Ivar from Vikings, while an unusual character, is still a character in a TV story, where everything is set and directed to feature him and cater to him. Ivar historically was also a Viking *noble*--so even on some quasi-hstorical basis, had lots of people catering to him, and tolerating him. A *COMMONER* Viking would have been stuck living in the poor section of town down by the fiord, reduced to fishing just to stay alive. A crippled *COMMONER* Viking certainly wouldn't be going raiding with the warriors. He'd be lucky to successfully raid his chicken-coop for eggs every morning.
So what? Are you suggesting that PCs can't be nobles?
In my old vikings campaign, the group would bring their prophetess Silksif with them (who was a PC). She wasn't disabled - but she was no fighter and not particularly athletic. Even if she was disabled, though, they'd still want to bring her along because she was vital. They wanted the spirits on their side - and in game terms, she was magically powerful.
You do your game however you like - but the line of reasoning you have here doesn't make sense. Characters can have powers, including social power, that outweigh weaknesses.
Greetings!
I don't care about "X-Men". D&D is the main game being discussed. Telepaths, cyber, whatever special uber superhero powers, whatever. Not relevant. That's an entirely different game, modern/sci-fi, and totally different from D&D set in a medieval world and campaign.
My line of reasoning doesn't make sense? What is confusing?
In a high-magic world, a crippled character stuck in a fucking wheelchair doesn't make any sense whatsoever. They would be magically healed, and thus be normal, and not crippled and be stuck in a ridiculous wheelchair.
In a low-magic world, a crippled character stuck in a fucking wheelchair is a definite and ridiculous liability to the rest of the party, presumably involved in dangerous wilderness journeys and adventures into subterranean dungeons, all of which represents a cascading series of never-ending physical and mobility challenges on a crippled character stuck in a wheelchair. Furthermore, socially and operationally, such a party of adventurers would clearly be better served by simply recruiting a normal, healthy character. Much less of a liability, and much less operational problems, carrying the cripple, worrying about their fucking wheelchair, them being unable to climb up stairs, adders, or ropes, negotiate narrow crevice-like pathways, crawl up and down chasms, swim across rivers, and much more besides. Unless of course, someone is just hellbent on fucking virtue-signaling, and generally enjoys being a liability nd special-attention snowlake that demands constant attention and coddling from others in the group. Out-of-game virtue-signaling BS aside, IN-GAME reasoning just makes the whole prospect of recruiting a crippled character stuck in a fucking wheelchair ridiculous.
That's my line of reasoning. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I've just got a single question. In a game where Warforged are a race and magitech is a thing, why would you want to be confined to a wheelchair when an artificial limb(s) can be built (or conjured, or regenerated)?
EDIT: Just got through reading the entire thread. Others have used this argument to greater effect. Mea culpa.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 25, 2021, 06:36:42 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 25, 2021, 12:04:51 PM
If a character can figure out how to bring a centaur to the adventure, then you probably can figure out how to bring a wheelchair on an adventure.
If someone wanted to play a centaur, I would not make the campaign "centaur accessible". They would deal with the consequences of being a huge horse person in a human town or dungeon.
Just like a character in a wheelchair.
Also of note; horses are shockingly maneuverable compared to what non-horse owners think. We have a 1200 lb. quarter horse who can belly crawl through the two foot gap between the gate and the ground at the front of our barn unless we also close the sliding door most of the way and put a garage can (the big kind the trucks pick up) across the remaining open space. He can turn around in what would be a 5' corridor in D&D. He can also work a door handle with his lips. He does this because he knows where we store the grain and wants more than we actually give him (because more would make him sick) and it's a constant struggle to keep him from figuring ways around those obstacles.
Anyway, sticking a human torso where his neck is, as long as it could lean at same angles his neck could reach wouldn't significantly impact his ability to navigate your typical dungeon. Make the horse-part more pony or donkey sized and there would be very few places a human could go that a centaur couldn't (I even came up with a trait in my system called "oversized" applied to certain creatures to essentially straddle the medium; which it was treated as for most purposes; and large size categories just because of my knowledge of the things that smaller "large creatures" could actually get into).
Getting pissed about people playing wheelchair bound characters is a non-issue nobody should be wasting their time on. If you think it breaks your immersion too much, just don't allow it at your table, it really is that simple. Trying to argue how other people should and shouldn't play their games is exactly the worst kind of SJW nonsense.
I've ran Call of Cthulu and Deadlands games where I've had wheelchair bound characters and it was handled realistically.
I've also ran a recent Cyberpunk Campaign where a character used the Spider Wheelchair that gave them the exact same effective movement of any other character with a few extra bells and whistles.
D&D's magic level is all over the place depending on what setting you're using. If you wanna be 'that guy' who says No to the player who wants to be in a wheel chair and adventure that's on you. But don't tell other people what they should and should not do in their own home games. That just makes you exactly what you hate.
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 26, 2021, 03:37:48 PM
Getting pissed about people playing wheelchair bound characters is a non-issue nobody should be wasting their time on. If you think it breaks your immersion too much, just don't allow it at your table, it really is that simple. Trying to argue how other people should and shouldn't play their games is exactly the worst kind of SJW nonsense.
I've ran Call of Cthulu and Deadlands games where I've had wheelchair bound characters and it was handled realistically.
I've also ran a recent Cyberpunk Campaign where a character used the Spider Wheelchair that gave them the exact same effective movement of any other character with a few extra bells and whistles.
D&D's magic level is all over the place depending on what setting you're using. If you wanna be 'that guy' who says No to the player who wants to be in a wheel chair and adventure that's on you. But don't tell other people what they should and should not do in their own home games. That just makes you exactly what you hate.
No one is saying they're not allowed just that the concept is fucking retarded and that it doesn't make sense in the implied setting of dnd. Would be fine in a low magic intrigue heavy game. It comes off as the player who wants to be blind but can also see better than everyone else like daredevil or even putting zatoichi to shame
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 26, 2021, 07:24:23 AM
I've just got a single question. In a game where Warforged are a race and magitech is a thing, why would you want to be confined to a wheelchair when an artificial limb(s) can be built (or conjured, or regenerated)?
Eberron has artificial limbs, which would work for amputees. If someone has a spinal cord injury, though, possibly artificial legs wouldn't work any better than their flesh legs. Other D&D settings don't necessarily have either Warforged or artificial limbs.
Quote from: Ocule on September 26, 2021, 08:10:54 PM
No one is saying they're not allowed just that the concept is fucking retarded and that it doesn't make sense in the implied setting of dnd. Would be fine in a low magic intrigue heavy game. It comes off as the player who wants to be blind but can also see better than everyone else like daredevil or even putting zatoichi to shame
D&D's official setting is Forgotten Realms, which is high fantasy as fuck and has the built in D&D rules of magic as part of it's setting. So what you just said is complete and total bullshit. Playing characters that are blind but see better than everyone else, and who are bad ass warriors from the backs of wheelchairs is perfectly in line with everything 5th edition has. You may not like it, but that's the official truth.
So try again your argument is invalid.
Quote from: SHARK on September 26, 2021, 05:48:23 AM
My line of reasoning doesn't make sense? What is confusing?
In a high-magic world, a crippled character stuck in a fucking wheelchair doesn't make any sense whatsoever. They would be magically healed, and thus be normal, and not crippled and be stuck in a ridiculous wheelchair.
In a low-magic world, a crippled character stuck in a fucking wheelchair is a definite and ridiculous liability to the rest of the party, presumably involved in dangerous wilderness journeys and adventures into subterranean dungeons, all of which represents a cascading series of never-ending physical and mobility challenges on a crippled character stuck in a wheelchair. Furthermore, socially and operationally, such a party of adventurers would clearly be better served by simply recruiting a normal, healthy character.
(1) High-magic doesn't necessarily mean easy healing. For example, Eberron has a lot of arcane magic and enchantments, but it has less healing than other D&D worlds. This is on healing and resurrection in Eberron,
QuoteNo matter how much gold you throw at the clergy, the fact of the matter is that most NPC priests have no spellcasting ability, but instead have proficiency in History, Religion, and perhaps Performance for delivering particularly effective sermons. NPCs capable of casting divine magic are rare, and even if you do find one, none of them are in the habit of selling miracles.
Source: https://eberron-dnd5e.obsidianportal.com/adventure-log/healing-resurrection-in-eberron
So it depends on the specifics of the high-magic world.
(2) In a low-magic world, what little magic there is can be all the more valuable because of its rarity. I already gave the example of the prophetess Silksif in my vikings game -- which was definitely low magic. She was a poor fighter and athlete, and would otherwise have been a liability on any war mission - but her magical ability was invaluable to the others who had no magic. The same logic would apply to a low-magic D&D world.
--------
These are pretty obvious to me in non-D&D games. I think the challenge in D&D games is that there is no concept of disadvantages or other special features for characters. So it goes against the standard rules to have a character who has any sort of outstanding drawback. But that doesn't mean it's impossible to have house rules to allow such.
The trick is that a disadvantage like missing a limb or being paraplegic needs to be balanced with a corresponding advantage. Depending on how the balancing is done, the character could be too powerful, or not powerful enough.
I haven't done this in any of my D&D games - but in other game systems, having characters with disadvantages of various sorts has meant a lot of cool gaming.
I have noticed a little confusion with people imagining that a character is in a wheelchair because they are physically unable to walk.
Quote from: jhkim on September 26, 2021, 08:42:08 PM
Quote from: SHARK on September 26, 2021, 05:48:23 AM
My line of reasoning doesn't make sense? What is confusing?
In a high-magic world, a crippled character stuck in a fucking wheelchair doesn't make any sense whatsoever. They would be magically healed, and thus be normal, and not crippled and be stuck in a ridiculous wheelchair.
In a low-magic world, a crippled character stuck in a fucking wheelchair is a definite and ridiculous liability to the rest of the party, presumably involved in dangerous wilderness journeys and adventures into subterranean dungeons, all of which represents a cascading series of never-ending physical and mobility challenges on a crippled character stuck in a wheelchair. Furthermore, socially and operationally, such a party of adventurers would clearly be better served by simply recruiting a normal, healthy character.
(1) High-magic doesn't necessarily mean easy healing. For example, Eberron has a lot of arcane magic and enchantments, but it has less healing than other D&D worlds. This is on healing and resurrection in Eberron,
QuoteNo matter how much gold you throw at the clergy, the fact of the matter is that most NPC priests have no spellcasting ability, but instead have proficiency in History, Religion, and perhaps Performance for delivering particularly effective sermons. NPCs capable of casting divine magic are rare, and even if you do find one, none of them are in the habit of selling miracles.
Source: https://eberron-dnd5e.obsidianportal.com/adventure-log/healing-resurrection-in-eberron
So it depends on the specifics of the high-magic world.
(2) In a low-magic world, what little magic there is can be all the more valuable because of its rarity. I already gave the example of the prophetess Silksif in my vikings game -- which was definitely low magic. She was a poor fighter and athlete, and would otherwise have been a liability on any war mission - but her magical ability was invaluable to the others who had no magic. The same logic would apply to a low-magic D&D world.
--------
These are pretty obvious to me in non-D&D games. I think the challenge in D&D games is that there is no concept of disadvantages or other special features for characters. So it goes against the standard rules to have a character who has any sort of outstanding drawback. But that doesn't mean it's impossible to have house rules to allow such.
The trick is that a disadvantage like missing a limb or being paraplegic needs to be balanced with a corresponding advantage. Depending on how the balancing is done, the character could be too powerful, or not powerful enough.
I haven't done this in any of my D&D games - but in other game systems, having characters with disadvantages of various sorts has meant a lot of cool gaming.
Yes, but your prophetess NPC can... walk up the steps, she can get up a hill by herself, she could walk up a mountain pass. She might get winded, presumbably, but she could do it. She probably couldn't climb a mountain but so what, most stereotypical wizards couldn't do it. This kind of scenario is typical when any spellcaster PC adventures with warriors.
And sure, I don't care what other people do with their D&D games. If they want to have a high-level wheelchair bound warrior killing giants, and hewing through trolls with a magic sword... rolling up the mountainside, and through the hills and dales... more power to them, but I just want the right to find it laughably stupid. I since I have that right, I find the concept laughably stupid (and that's the kind of stuff being pitched!)
To each their own, I suppose.
I don't disagree with deadDMwalking, though I'm not filtering by opinion here. I'm playing a game to play the game, not hear other peoples' takes on politics, regardless of what that take is. I don't want to spend my time listening to a player ramble for half an hour, even if their opinion completely lines up with mine; that isn't what I'm there for. As far as I'm concerned, anyone I game with is welcome to have any and every opinion they like, as long as they don't try mashing it in my face or wasting my time.
And yes, someone wanting to roll around in a magic levitating wheelchair that leaves both hands free for them to fight at zero disadvantage would get bounced from my game in a jiffy. I can see reasons for an adventuring group to bring along and protect a disabled member, say a wizened ancient sage with invaluable knowledge, the alchemist who is the only person who can concoct an antidote for the poison affecting the king, the world's premier tactician with some permanent injury from war, what have you. But not the party barbarian.
Quote from: zagreus on September 26, 2021, 10:12:50 PM
Quote from: jhkim on September 26, 2021, 08:42:08 PM
In a low-magic world, what little magic there is can be all the more valuable because of its rarity. I already gave the example of the prophetess Silksif in my vikings game -- which was definitely low magic. She was a poor fighter and athlete, and would otherwise have been a liability on any war mission - but her magical ability was invaluable to the others who had no magic. The same logic would apply to a low-magic D&D world.
Yes, but your prophetess NPC can... walk up the steps, she can get up a hill by herself, she could walk up a mountain pass. She might get winded, presumbably, but she could do it. She probably couldn't climb a mountain but so what, most stereotypical wizards couldn't do it. This kind of scenario is typical when any spellcaster PC adventures with warriors.
The prophetess was a PC, and yes, she could walk. However, my claim is that from my experience with the campaign - it would have worked perfectly well also if she couldn't walk too - like if she were a disabled elderly grandmother. The point is that low magic doesn't mean that magic has no effect. Just a bit of magic can become hugely important if that is the only magic around. In general, for a low-magic campaign, I'd expect a wheelchair-bound character to be something like a prophetess or other magician to fit in.
In a high-magic fantasy campaign, what fits depends on the type(s) of high magic. In Eberron, for example, healing is rare and magic prosthetic limbs are common, so a magic wheelchair seems possible - which could be anything from a frail people-mover to a deadly chariot-like war machine. That allows for a variety of characters, and the magical mechanism fits with the esthetic of Eberron. In another setting, maybe regeneration is common so there wouldn't be a need for such.
Quote from: zagreus on September 26, 2021, 10:12:50 PM
And sure, I don't care what other people do with their D&D games. If they want to have a high-level wheelchair bound warrior killing giants, and hewing through trolls with a magic sword... rolling up the mountainside, and through the hills and dales... more power to them, but I just want the right to find it laughably stupid. I since I have that right, I find the concept laughably stupid (and that's the kind of stuff being pitched!)
For pretty much any character type, there are stupid examples of it. My son was just telling me about a "crazy cat lady" as a Swarmkeeper Ranger, which is a stupid (but funny) idea. I've seen stupid characters of all sorts of types. But the impression I've been getting has been that *all* disabled characters are stupid.
In general, I think it's a lot more plausible for a magically-enhanced PC to kill giants and trolls than a non-magically-enhanced character. For further, it depends on the specifics.
I'm just reading the thread, but I haven't gotten the impression that people think all disabled characters are stupid. Joshua Lackhand or some version is common. People lacking eyes is common.
The issue is that many of our tables are simulationist. I ran a Magitech Chronicles game, which not only has full magical regeneration, but also has cybernetics, so cyberlimbs are possible too.
A character wanted to have an NPC in their background, who was rich, be confined to a hover-wheelchair. There's no in-universe reason why this would be necessary. He could be healed almost instantly, or have an operation in a few hours.
But it was important to the player. Really important. In my game we have covenants between gods and mortals. I had the character in question take a covenant that he would never accept magical healing, and we were able to pull off what the PC wanted.
But I had to be careful. If I didn't have a good reason and just shoehorned it in then 2 of the people at the table would have dropped immediately. It would have destroyed their suspension of disbelief.
And many of the SJW types I run into will crucify you for feeling the need to justify such things. To them inclusion comes first, and if it destroys realism they don't care. But I do. My players do. And we aren't evil people for that, IMO. But we are accused of it nonetheless.
:) I honestly don't understand why you feel bound to include inflexible people in your fun. You and the like-minded others do not have to run every game with such intransigent people. This is shared fun time with shared imagination, if they cannot imagine such a fun they can sit that gathering out and rejoin during another. No harm, no foul! :D
You do not sound like evil people at all for enjoying such a form of pretend.
Quote from: ChrisFox on September 28, 2021, 11:11:16 PM
There's no in-universe reason why this would be necessary. He could be healed almost instantly, or have an operation in a few hours.
Real people refuse 'healing' available in our world - some because they don't think they need fixing. How is 'not wanting to' not a good reason for a rich person who KNOWS that their unusual choice will automatically distinguish them in any room? To me, that's just someone that understands branding.
Quote from: ChrisFox on September 28, 2021, 11:11:16 PM
I'm just reading the thread, but I haven't gotten the impression that people think all disabled characters are stupid. Joshua Lackhand or some version is common. People lacking eyes is common.
I was reacting to posts like these,
Quote from: SHARK on September 24, 2021, 11:38:32 PM
*Laughing* Any soy-drinking, sniveling crybaby attempting to play a wheelchair-bound cripple in my world would face a swift and grim fate--as the rest of the athletic, in-shape player characters flee for their lives from pursuing Tyrannosaurs--the slow, lagging-behind cripple would be the first character pounced on and fucking devoured by the Tyrannosaurs!
Quote from: zagreus on September 24, 2021, 04:17:52 PM
I can see you not wanting to play with people whose politics are on the other extreme of yours, but - honestly- how the F is an "adventurer" going to be adventuring in a wheelchair? This is where the game becomes ABOUT representation rather than telling a story/running a game that makes any sense.
I agree that disabled PCs should be tailored to fit the game-world. Your example of making a wheelchair-bound character fit your magitech world sounds fine to me - and it goes counter to the posts above.
Quote from: jhkim on September 29, 2021, 10:02:25 AM
Quote from: ChrisFox on September 28, 2021, 11:11:16 PM
I'm just reading the thread, but I haven't gotten the impression that people think all disabled characters are stupid. Joshua Lackhand or some version is common. People lacking eyes is common.
I was reacting to posts like these,
Quote from: SHARK on September 24, 2021, 11:38:32 PM
*Laughing* Any soy-drinking, sniveling crybaby attempting to play a wheelchair-bound cripple in my world would face a swift and grim fate--as the rest of the athletic, in-shape player characters flee for their lives from pursuing Tyrannosaurs--the slow, lagging-behind cripple would be the first character pounced on and fucking devoured by the Tyrannosaurs!
Quote from: zagreus on September 24, 2021, 04:17:52 PM
I can see you not wanting to play with people whose politics are on the other extreme of yours, but - honestly- how the F is an "adventurer" going to be adventuring in a wheelchair? This is where the game becomes ABOUT representation rather than telling a story/running a game that makes any sense.
I agree that disabled PCs should be tailored to fit the game-world. Your example of making a wheelchair-bound character fit your magitech world sounds fine to me - and it goes counter to the posts above.
Greetings!
Yes, that's right. What might I have been reacting to in my commentary?
I think Chris Fox realizes the distinction between "disabled" characters that are legitimate, reasonable, and also realistically able to participate and function with an adventuring group, and disabled characters that are just fucking ridiculous and stupid.
My angle on that is yeah, a character that is missing a hand or an eye--while experiencing some definite drawbacks and personal, individual hindrances--such characters are still able to function and participate with the adventuring group in a reasonable and effective manner.
Wheelchair-bound characters don't make the grade, in my mind. They are too crippled in essential, independent mobility and effectiveness to successfully participate and function with an adventuring group out in the wilderness and crawling through dangerous dungeons. Beyond such obvious detrimental issues--the whole reason wheelchair-bound characters are bandied about and inserted is chiefly based in a twisted, political motivation born from a corrupt and poisonous ideology.
No one in decades of gaming has likely had some kind of "problem" or animus towards disabled characters. Until now, though, somehow. And really, the whole argument gets ideologically stupid really quickly. Disabled GAMERS are always welcome, and in general, have never been excluded from gaming as a hobby. Disabled *characters*--on the other hand, well, as mentioned and argued, it depends as to being disabled in what manner, and in what ways, in my mind. Some disabled characters--such as those stuck in a wheelchair--can simply be too disfunctional and crippled--again, reference my points about a high-magic cmpaign, and a low-magic cmpaign. In one, such a cripled disabled character would most certainly be healed--and in the other, the harsh realities of the world--much like our own--make a wheelchair-bound character rediculous and pathetic as a member of an dventuring group.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
[looks up from coffee]
So, have we figured out how to stop the D&D SJWs? As it related to the RPG space?
Has anyone suggested that you can't STOP us? Maybe instead play the games you like and ignore the ones you don't? I think the RPG list of woke companies is stupid BUT there's a silver lining here -- you can use that list to avoid shit you don't like or want to support and (maybe) have some fun playing the games you do want to support? You like having fun still, yes?
Or this more a chest-thumping, tiki-torch wielding, angry man-child tantrum of anguish? If so, I'm here to listen. That's what friends are for.
Quote from: trechriron on September 29, 2021, 05:07:26 PMHas anyone suggested that you can't STOP us?
I was about to go into debate, but then I remembered your two faced and this ideology is key to your sense of superiority over others. It would be like convincing you of the wrongdoing of your god.
Anyway, there have been groups before that have razed things to the ground in the name of their sacred mission, and yet none rule the world in its entirety today. You will be stopped. If not by others, then by the caustic self-destructive nature of your movement.
Quote from: trechriron on September 29, 2021, 05:07:26 PM
Maybe instead play the games you like and ignore the ones you don't?
Dont know if you have seen the list which helps you to find good games?
Might be worth checking out.
Quote from: Shasarak on September 29, 2021, 05:14:29 PM
Quote from: trechriron on September 29, 2021, 05:07:26 PM
Maybe instead play the games you like and ignore the ones you don't?
Dont know if you have seen the list which helps you to find good games?
Might be worth checking out.
Don't know if you read the second paragraph of the post you quoted where he addressed that list.
Might be worth checking out.
Quote from: SHARK on September 29, 2021, 01:37:35 PM
Wheelchair-bound characters don't make the grade, in my mind. They are too crippled in essential, independent mobility and effectiveness to successfully participate and function with an adventuring group out in the wilderness and crawling through dangerous dungeons. Beyond such obvious detrimental issues--the whole reason wheelchair-bound characters are bandied about and inserted is chiefly based in a twisted, political motivation born from a corrupt and poisonous ideology.
No one in decades of gaming has likely had some kind of "problem" or animus towards disabled characters. Until now, though, somehow. And really, the whole argument gets ideologically stupid really quickly. Disabled GAMERS are always welcome, and in general, have never been excluded from gaming as a hobby. Disabled *characters*--on the other hand, well, as mentioned and argued, it depends as to being disabled in what manner, and in what ways, in my mind. Some disabled characters--such as those stuck in a wheelchair--can simply be too disfunctional and crippled--again, reference my points about a high-magic cmpaign, and a low-magic cmpaign. In one, such a cripled disabled character would most certainly be healed--and in the other, the harsh realities of the world--much like our own--make a wheelchair-bound character rediculous and pathetic as a member of an dventuring group.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I mean this tells me you've probably never had any meaningful interaction with a wheelchair bound individual in your life if you see wheelchair using individuals as being "Too crippled in independent mobility". Ever heard murderball? Jesus Christ dude, aren't you a former Marine? The number of Soldiers from the war on terror who've lost multiple limbs, legs included and are just as mobile as anyone else.
That kind of attitude is the worst kind to encounter in this hobby. First, you're blatantly treating wheelchair bound people as effectively being children incapable of even living on their own, and next you're assuming that every differently abled person *WANTS* top be "Fixed" as well. Large portions of the deaf community in particular refuse cochlear ear implants because they don't see anything wrong with their condition.
Must be real welcoming to a dude in a wheelchair who pulls up to your table and asks to play, "No sorry, you can't play a wheelchair bound character, it's unrealistic because I think you're basically invalids incapable of taking care of yourselves."
I'll pull back here and say, your table, your rules. I fully support that, but I think yourself and a lot of other people in this thread need to actually take a look at what people who are in wheelchairs or missing their limbs are truly capable of...and that's the point of being a Player Character, you're supposed to be an extraordinary person to begin with.
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PM
Quote from: SHARK on September 29, 2021, 01:37:35 PM
Wheelchair-bound characters don't make the grade, in my mind. They are too crippled in essential, independent mobility and effectiveness to successfully participate and function with an adventuring group out in the wilderness and crawling through dangerous dungeons. Beyond such obvious detrimental issues--the whole reason wheelchair-bound characters are bandied about and inserted is chiefly based in a twisted, political motivation born from a corrupt and poisonous ideology.
No one in decades of gaming has likely had some kind of "problem" or animus towards disabled characters. Until now, though, somehow. And really, the whole argument gets ideologically stupid really quickly. Disabled GAMERS are always welcome, and in general, have never been excluded from gaming as a hobby. Disabled *characters*--on the other hand, well, as mentioned and argued, it depends as to being disabled in what manner, and in what ways, in my mind. Some disabled characters--such as those stuck in a wheelchair--can simply be too disfunctional and crippled--again, reference my points about a high-magic cmpaign, and a low-magic cmpaign. In one, such a cripled disabled character would most certainly be healed--and in the other, the harsh realities of the world--much like our own--make a wheelchair-bound character rediculous and pathetic as a member of an dventuring group.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I mean this tells me you've probably never had any meaningful interaction with a wheelchair bound individual in your life if you see wheelchair using individuals as being "Too crippled in independent mobility". Ever heard murderball? Jesus Christ dude, aren't you a former Marine? The number of Soldiers from the war on terror who've lost multiple limbs, legs included and are just as mobile as anyone else.
That kind of attitude is the worst kind to encounter in this hobby. First, you're blatantly treating wheelchair bound people as effectively being children incapable of even living on their own, and next you're assuming that every differently abled person *WANTS* top be "Fixed" as well. Large portions of the deaf community in particular refuse cochlear ear implants because they don't see anything wrong with their condition.
Must be real welcoming to a dude in a wheelchair who pulls up to your table and asks to play, "No sorry, you can't play a wheelchair bound character, it's unrealistic because I think you're basically invalids incapable of taking care of yourselves."
I'll pull back here and say, your table, your rules. I fully support that, but I think yourself and a lot of other people in this thread need to actually take a look at what people who are in wheelchairs or missing their limbs are truly capable of...and that's the point of being a Player Character, you're supposed to be an extraordinary person to begin with.
How many of those real persons that are wheelchair bound go exploring dungeons and killing dragons IRL?
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PMAnd next you're assuming that every differently abled person *WANTS* top be "Fixed" as well. Large portions of the deaf community in particular refuse cochlear ear implants because they don't see anything wrong with their condition.
They are also smart enough to demand not to go into combat situations. They can believe whatever the hell they want, but reality is a harsh bitch.
I fucking HATE the term "differently abled" as this stupid ointment to the reality that your
HINDERED compared to a normal person. No amount of twisting the rest of the universe and kicking & screaming will change the truth.
Your not differently abled. You are DIS-ABLED.
Tensers Floating disk has also existed for a long time. Its more practical then any form of wheelchair and demanding dungeons be made wheelchair accessible.
Singed - A person who went to the disability office for all his life.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 29, 2021, 05:39:11 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PMAnd next you're assuming that every differently abled person *WANTS* top be "Fixed" as well. Large portions of the deaf community in particular refuse cochlear ear implants because they don't see anything wrong with their condition.
They are also smart enough to demand not to go into combat situations. They can believe whatever the hell they want, but reality is a harsh bitch.
I fucking HATE the term "differently abled" as this stupid ointment to the reality that your HINDERED compared to a normal person. No amount of twisting the rest of the universe and kicking & screaming will change the truth.
Your not differently abled. You are DIS-ABLED.
Tensers Floating disk has also existed for a long time. Its more practical then any form of wheelchair and demanding dungeons be made wheelchair accessible.
Singed - A person who went to the disability office for all his life.
Yeah dude, and I work with the differently abled every fucking day as part of my job. You don't speak for all of them, most don't want to be called "Handicapped" or "Hindered" or "Disabled" like they're a broken machine.
And the Wheelchair bound mad scientist did fucking great in my long running Deadlands: Hell on Earth game. As for D&D you're literally talking about a game where the Mundane Human Fighter at 20th Level can pull off ridiculous god like feats no regular human should be able to at all, but a dude in a wheel chair being able to kick ass is just "Stretching disbelief too much."
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:37:52 PM
How many of those real persons that are wheelchair bound go exploring dungeons and killing dragons IRL?
How many people in real life go exploring dungeons and killing Dragons. None, because it's a fucking fantasy.
Yeah man, people in wheelchairs being able to do amazing things, really ridiculous https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUUVfPy0UgI ::)
By the way, that's literally you naysayers getting owned by actual video evidence.
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 29, 2021, 05:17:06 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on September 29, 2021, 05:14:29 PM
Quote from: trechriron on September 29, 2021, 05:07:26 PM
Maybe instead play the games you like and ignore the ones you don't?
Dont know if you have seen the list which helps you to find good games?
Might be worth checking out.
Don't know if you read the second paragraph of the post you quoted where he addressed that list.
Might be worth checking out.
Thanks for the advise. Sounds like something that might be worth checking out!
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:48:55 PMYeah dude, and I work with the differently abled every fucking day as part of my job. You don't speak for all of them, most don't want to be called "Handicapped" or "Hindered" or "Disabled" like they're a broken machine.
And I don't care how they feel. Prioritizing feelings over reality is I think one of the problems of the modern era.
Only in a time as opulent and as decadent as ours, is calling a disability; a disability, a problem.
Disability isn't even some callous insult. Its purely a descriptive term. You can't escape reality by constantly changing terms to escape it.
And play Xavier, or a Wizard on a Tensers disk or whatever. But to take place in a fantasy world where wounds can trivially be fixed, and demand that instead that world has wheelchair access is not imagination or escapism. Its delusion.
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:48:55 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 29, 2021, 05:39:11 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PMAnd next you're assuming that every differently abled person *WANTS* top be "Fixed" as well. Large portions of the deaf community in particular refuse cochlear ear implants because they don't see anything wrong with their condition.
They are also smart enough to demand not to go into combat situations. They can believe whatever the hell they want, but reality is a harsh bitch.
I fucking HATE the term "differently abled" as this stupid ointment to the reality that your HINDERED compared to a normal person. No amount of twisting the rest of the universe and kicking & screaming will change the truth.
Your not differently abled. You are DIS-ABLED.
Tensers Floating disk has also existed for a long time. Its more practical then any form of wheelchair and demanding dungeons be made wheelchair accessible.
Singed - A person who went to the disability office for all his life.
Yeah dude, and I work with the differently abled every fucking day as part of my job. You don't speak for all of them, most don't want to be called "Handicapped" or "Hindered" or "Disabled" like they're a broken machine.
And the Wheelchair bound mad scientist did fucking great in my long running Deadlands: Hell on Earth game. As for D&D you're literally talking about a game where the Mundane Human Fighter at 20th Level can pull off ridiculous god like feats no regular human should be able to at all, but a dude in a wheel chair being able to kick ass is just "Stretching disbelief too much."
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:37:52 PM
How many of those real persons that are wheelchair bound go exploring dungeons and killing dragons IRL?
How many people in real life go exploring dungeons and killing Dragons. None, because it's a fucking fantasy.
Yeah man, people in wheelchairs being able to do amazing things, really ridiculous https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUUVfPy0UgI ::)
By the way, that's literally you naysayers getting owned by actual video evidence.
You totally missed the point even after acknowledging it.
You keep conflating (at this point I think intentionally so) real people with make believe characters.
YOU are the one saying we don't think real people this or that, we haven't made that claim as far as I know.
WE are talking fantasy and immersion breaking stuff (for us) like the +10 combat wheelchair, and we are saying there's lots of better options already in the game.
As for your fantasy that most disabled people don't want to be "fixed" well it's just that, a fantasy, we know because choclear implants are still made, prosthetic limbs are still made and R&D is constant in ways to allow the blind to see.
BECAUSE there's a market for that.
Just like in a fantasy world where you can get back your limbs most (I dare say 100%) people would choose to. Only exception being if you can get something "better" like magical Eberron prosthetic limbs or better sight than normal for your species.
Now please do keep beating up your strawman I'm sure you'll kill it.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:59:58 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:48:55 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 29, 2021, 05:39:11 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PMAnd next you're assuming that every differently abled person *WANTS* top be "Fixed" as well. Large portions of the deaf community in particular refuse cochlear ear implants because they don't see anything wrong with their condition.
They are also smart enough to demand not to go into combat situations. They can believe whatever the hell they want, but reality is a harsh bitch.
I fucking HATE the term "differently abled" as this stupid ointment to the reality that your HINDERED compared to a normal person. No amount of twisting the rest of the universe and kicking & screaming will change the truth.
Your not differently abled. You are DIS-ABLED.
Tensers Floating disk has also existed for a long time. Its more practical then any form of wheelchair and demanding dungeons be made wheelchair accessible.
Singed - A person who went to the disability office for all his life.
Yeah dude, and I work with the differently abled every fucking day as part of my job. You don't speak for all of them, most don't want to be called "Handicapped" or "Hindered" or "Disabled" like they're a broken machine.
And the Wheelchair bound mad scientist did fucking great in my long running Deadlands: Hell on Earth game. As for D&D you're literally talking about a game where the Mundane Human Fighter at 20th Level can pull off ridiculous god like feats no regular human should be able to at all, but a dude in a wheel chair being able to kick ass is just "Stretching disbelief too much."
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:37:52 PM
How many of those real persons that are wheelchair bound go exploring dungeons and killing dragons IRL?
How many people in real life go exploring dungeons and killing Dragons. None, because it's a fucking fantasy.
Yeah man, people in wheelchairs being able to do amazing things, really ridiculous https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUUVfPy0UgI ::)
By the way, that's literally you naysayers getting owned by actual video evidence.
You totally missed the point even after acknowledging it.
You keep conflating (at this point I think intentionally so) real people with make believe characters.
YOU are the one saying we don't think real people this or that, we haven't made that claim as far as I know.
WE are talking fantasy and immersion breaking stuff (for us) like the +10 combat wheelchair, and we are saying there's lots of better options already in the game.
As for your fantasy that most disabled people don't want to be "fixed" well it's just that, a fantasy, we know because choclear implants are still made, prosthetic limbs are still made and R&D is constant in ways to allow the blind to see.
BECAUSE there's a market for that.
Just like in a fantasy world where you can get back your limbs most (I dare say 100%) people would choose to. Only exception being if you can get something "better" like magical Eberron prosthetic limbs or better sight than normal for your species.
Now please do keep beating up your strawman I'm sure you'll kill it.
You are literally mis-representing my argument. Nowhere did I say "All Differently abled people don't want to be fixed" I said there are lots of differently abled people who don't believe they are broken and don't want to be "Fixed". If you have a problem with that, and me literally posting a video of a dude on a speciality built wheel chair doing flips grinding on rails, and showing how he could easily navigate a dunegon in it... Then you are being obstinate and denying reality because you "Just want to be right."
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 06:06:08 PMliterally posting a video of a dude on a speciality built wheel chair doing flips grinding on rails
Ah, dungeons are really well known for their ramps and rails.
That dude is one badass muthafucka, and deserves all the awards, but the first 10 seconds of the video is him slowly dragging himself and his wheelchair up a set of stairs.
Id wager if you asked him if he could navigate tight enclosed environments with difficult terrain and tons of slippery stairs (in the dark), he would say no, because he looks like a smart guy.
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 06:06:08 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:59:58 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:48:55 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 29, 2021, 05:39:11 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PMAnd next you're assuming that every differently abled person *WANTS* top be "Fixed" as well. Large portions of the deaf community in particular refuse cochlear ear implants because they don't see anything wrong with their condition.
They are also smart enough to demand not to go into combat situations. They can believe whatever the hell they want, but reality is a harsh bitch.
I fucking HATE the term "differently abled" as this stupid ointment to the reality that your HINDERED compared to a normal person. No amount of twisting the rest of the universe and kicking & screaming will change the truth.
Your not differently abled. You are DIS-ABLED.
Tensers Floating disk has also existed for a long time. Its more practical then any form of wheelchair and demanding dungeons be made wheelchair accessible.
Singed - A person who went to the disability office for all his life.
Yeah dude, and I work with the differently abled every fucking day as part of my job. You don't speak for all of them, most don't want to be called "Handicapped" or "Hindered" or "Disabled" like they're a broken machine.
And the Wheelchair bound mad scientist did fucking great in my long running Deadlands: Hell on Earth game. As for D&D you're literally talking about a game where the Mundane Human Fighter at 20th Level can pull off ridiculous god like feats no regular human should be able to at all, but a dude in a wheel chair being able to kick ass is just "Stretching disbelief too much."
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:37:52 PM
How many of those real persons that are wheelchair bound go exploring dungeons and killing dragons IRL?
How many people in real life go exploring dungeons and killing Dragons. None, because it's a fucking fantasy.
Yeah man, people in wheelchairs being able to do amazing things, really ridiculous https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUUVfPy0UgI ::)
By the way, that's literally you naysayers getting owned by actual video evidence.
You totally missed the point even after acknowledging it.
You keep conflating (at this point I think intentionally so) real people with make believe characters.
YOU are the one saying we don't think real people this or that, we haven't made that claim as far as I know.
WE are talking fantasy and immersion breaking stuff (for us) like the +10 combat wheelchair, and we are saying there's lots of better options already in the game.
As for your fantasy that most disabled people don't want to be "fixed" well it's just that, a fantasy, we know because choclear implants are still made, prosthetic limbs are still made and R&D is constant in ways to allow the blind to see.
BECAUSE there's a market for that.
Just like in a fantasy world where you can get back your limbs most (I dare say 100%) people would choose to. Only exception being if you can get something "better" like magical Eberron prosthetic limbs or better sight than normal for your species.
Now please do keep beating up your strawman I'm sure you'll kill it.
You are literally mis-representing my argument. Nowhere did I say "All Differently abled people don't want to be fixed" I said there are lots of differently abled people who don't believe they are broken and don't want to be "Fixed". If you have a problem with that, and me literally posting a video of a dude on a speciality built wheel chair doing flips grinding on rails, and showing how he could easily navigate a dunegon in it... Then you are being obstinate and denying reality because you "Just want to be right."
Oh, I'm sure he could totally hold his pace with the non disabled members of the party, totally. Even going up a mountain side, scalling a wall or crawling on a confined space where everybody had to leave their backpacks behind, he would be able to take his wheelchair because Dragons.
So you're not saying all? good thing neither did I claim you did then.
And this is when I call you an SJW because you're just as dishonest as all of them.
Oops. Wrong field. Never mind. Too many tabs open and not enough brain to go around.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 06:12:07 PM
Oh, I'm sure he could totally hold his pace with the non disabled members of the party, totally. Even going up a mountain side, scalling a wall or crawling on a confined space where everybody had to leave their backpacks behind, he would be able to take his wheelchair because Dragons.
So you're not saying all? good thing neither did I claim you did then.
And this is when I call you an SJW because you're just as dishonest as all of them.
:) :) :) Right man, purity spiral because I think it's fucking dumb wheelchairs in D&D bother you so much. That makes me an SJW. You are literally acting like the worst progressives right now. Keep being a reactionary though. ::)
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 29, 2021, 06:11:43 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 06:06:08 PMliterally posting a video of a dude on a speciality built wheel chair doing flips grinding on rails
Ah, dungeons are really well known for their ramps and rails.
That dude is one badass muthafucka, and deserves all the awards, but the first 10 seconds of the video is him slowly dragging himself and his wheelchair up a set of stairs.
Id wager if you asked him if he could navigate tight enclosed environments with difficult terrain and tons of slippery stairs (in the dark), he would say no, because he looks like a smart guy.
What!? Your dungeons don't have rails, ramps and elevators ? Next you'll tell me they're not always wide enough for a wheelchair to pass trhu.
Tsk, tsk I think you must be one of those istophobes I keep hearing post here.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:37:52 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PM
Quote from: SHARK on September 29, 2021, 01:37:35 PM
Wheelchair-bound characters don't make the grade, in my mind. They are too crippled in essential, independent mobility and effectiveness to successfully participate and function with an adventuring group out in the wilderness and crawling through dangerous dungeons. Beyond such obvious detrimental issues--the whole reason wheelchair-bound characters are bandied about and inserted is chiefly based in a twisted, political motivation born from a corrupt and poisonous ideology.
No one in decades of gaming has likely had some kind of "problem" or animus towards disabled characters. Until now, though, somehow. And really, the whole argument gets ideologically stupid really quickly. Disabled GAMERS are always welcome, and in general, have never been excluded from gaming as a hobby. Disabled *characters*--on the other hand, well, as mentioned and argued, it depends as to being disabled in what manner, and in what ways, in my mind. Some disabled characters--such as those stuck in a wheelchair--can simply be too disfunctional and crippled--again, reference my points about a high-magic cmpaign, and a low-magic cmpaign. In one, such a cripled disabled character would most certainly be healed--and in the other, the harsh realities of the world--much like our own--make a wheelchair-bound character rediculous and pathetic as a member of an dventuring group.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I mean this tells me you've probably never had any meaningful interaction with a wheelchair bound individual in your life if you see wheelchair using individuals as being "Too crippled in independent mobility". Ever heard murderball? Jesus Christ dude, aren't you a former Marine? The number of Soldiers from the war on terror who've lost multiple limbs, legs included and are just as mobile as anyone else.
That kind of attitude is the worst kind to encounter in this hobby. First, you're blatantly treating wheelchair bound people as effectively being children incapable of even living on their own, and next you're assuming that every differently abled person *WANTS* top be "Fixed" as well. Large portions of the deaf community in particular refuse cochlear ear implants because they don't see anything wrong with their condition.
Must be real welcoming to a dude in a wheelchair who pulls up to your table and asks to play, "No sorry, you can't play a wheelchair bound character, it's unrealistic because I think you're basically invalids incapable of taking care of yourselves."
I'll pull back here and say, your table, your rules. I fully support that, but I think yourself and a lot of other people in this thread need to actually take a look at what people who are in wheelchairs or missing their limbs are truly capable of...and that's the point of being a Player Character, you're supposed to be an extraordinary person to begin with.
How many of those real persons that are wheelchair bound go exploring dungeons and killing dragons IRL?
*Stairs* The wheelchair warrior's ONE weakness.....
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 06:14:39 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 06:12:07 PM
Oh, I'm sure he could totally hold his pace with the non disabled members of the party, totally. Even going up a mountain side, scalling a wall or crawling on a confined space where everybody had to leave their backpacks behind, he would be able to take his wheelchair because Dragons.
So you're not saying all? good thing neither did I claim you did then.
And this is when I call you an SJW because you're just as dishonest as all of them.
:) :) :) Right man, purity spiral because I think it's fucking dumb wheelchairs in D&D bother you so much. That makes me an SJW. You are literally acting like the worst progressives right now. Keep being a reactionary though. ::)
Saying X is a dumb idea =/= being bothered by X.
To be a reactionary one needs, first and foremost, be part of the establishment, SJWs ARE the establishment, I'm a revolutionary.
Quote from: trechriron on September 29, 2021, 05:07:26 PM
[looks up from coffee]
So, have we figured out how to stop the D&D SJWs? As it related to the RPG space?
Has anyone suggested that you can't STOP us? Maybe instead play the games you like and ignore the ones you don't? I think the RPG list of woke companies is stupid BUT there's a silver lining here -- you can use that list to avoid shit you don't like or want to support and (maybe) have some fun playing the games you do want to support? You like having fun still, yes?
Or this more a chest-thumping, tiki-torch wielding, angry man-child tantrum of anguish? If so, I'm here to listen. That's what friends are for.
Tiki torches? Is the FBI here? I thought they were FBI issued.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 29, 2021, 06:11:43 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 06:06:08 PMliterally posting a video of a dude on a speciality built wheel chair doing flips grinding on rails
Ah, dungeons are really well known for their ramps and rails.
I had one Dwarven city in my campaign that took health and safety to a particular extreme. Even the bad guy Dwarves had dungeons that were suitable for all the demographics.
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PM
Quote from: SHARK on September 29, 2021, 01:37:35 PM
Wheelchair-bound characters don't make the grade, in my mind. They are too crippled in essential, independent mobility and effectiveness to successfully participate and function with an adventuring group out in the wilderness and crawling through dangerous dungeons. Beyond such obvious detrimental issues--the whole reason wheelchair-bound characters are bandied about and inserted is chiefly based in a twisted, political motivation born from a corrupt and poisonous ideology.
No one in decades of gaming has likely had some kind of "problem" or animus towards disabled characters. Until now, though, somehow. And really, the whole argument gets ideologically stupid really quickly. Disabled GAMERS are always welcome, and in general, have never been excluded from gaming as a hobby. Disabled *characters*--on the other hand, well, as mentioned and argued, it depends as to being disabled in what manner, and in what ways, in my mind. Some disabled characters--such as those stuck in a wheelchair--can simply be too disfunctional and crippled--again, reference my points about a high-magic cmpaign, and a low-magic cmpaign. In one, such a cripled disabled character would most certainly be healed--and in the other, the harsh realities of the world--much like our own--make a wheelchair-bound character rediculous and pathetic as a member of an dventuring group.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I mean this tells me you've probably never had any meaningful interaction with a wheelchair bound individual in your life if you see wheelchair using individuals as being "Too crippled in independent mobility". Ever heard murderball? Jesus Christ dude, aren't you a former Marine? The number of Soldiers from the war on terror who've lost multiple limbs, legs included and are just as mobile as anyone else.
That kind of attitude is the worst kind to encounter in this hobby. First, you're blatantly treating wheelchair bound people as effectively being children incapable of even living on their own, and next you're assuming that every differently abled person *WANTS* top be "Fixed" as well. Large portions of the deaf community in particular refuse cochlear ear implants because they don't see anything wrong with their condition.
Must be real welcoming to a dude in a wheelchair who pulls up to your table and asks to play, "No sorry, you can't play a wheelchair bound character, it's unrealistic because I think you're basically invalids incapable of taking care of yourselves."
I'll pull back here and say, your table, your rules. I fully support that, but I think yourself and a lot of other people in this thread need to actually take a look at what people who are in wheelchairs or missing their limbs are truly capable of...and that's the point of being a Player Character, you're supposed to be an extraordinary person to begin with.
Greetings!
People in wheelchairs are in fact, disabled. They are not as mobile and efficient in a vast variety of mobility issues and dynamics, also a fact.
In regards to the game, it seems to me that a disabled character stuck in a fucking wheelchair would simply not be able to keep up and function efficiently with the rest of the normal player characters, traveling across the wilderness, and crawling through dangerous dungeons. Struggling through narrow ledge-like pathways, crawling up and down chasms, crawling through low-ceilinged overhead roofs, getting in and out of pits, rappelling down sheer chasm walls, scaling up and down ancient stairways, climbing up ropes, and negotiating their passage along wobbling rope bridges--as well as swimming across swift-flowing rivers, and making their way through treacherous, confined sewer tunnels.
To believe that disabled people in wheelchairs are just as mobile and efficient as a normal person is delusional.
As I have stated several times now, in a High Magic campaign, any such disabled character stuck in a wheelchair would most likely be healed, so the whole condition of being disbled in a wheelchair is moot. In a Low-Magic campaign--reviewing the numerous challenges I mentioned--and there are many, many more problems dealing with having a disabled character in a wheelchair attempting to be a functioning member of the adventuring party--that such a disabled character would likely suffer an early and swift death, on the count of them being disabled, slow, and simply not as mobile and functional. Beyond that, any smart party of adventurers would seek to recruit healthy, strong, normal adventurers to be members of their party, instead of always trying to carry and coddle a disabled character stuck in a wheelchir that can't keep up, can't carry their load, and simply can't function effectively in the field and in dungeons. So, there isn't much point or virtue in seeking to recruit or accepting a disabled character stuck in a wheelchair in such a dark, grim, and dangerous world.
Just like in the real world, the Marine Corps doesn't keep disabled warriors in the field, with infantry, for example. They provide them with a medical discharge from the service--because they are disabled, and not able to function efficiently.
The numerous reasons why someone disabled in a wheelchair can't possibly function efficently in a Marine Infantry Squad are much of the same reasons that wanting to include a disabled character in a wheelchair in an adventuring group is rediculous and stupid. It is absurd and delusional.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 06:12:07 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 06:06:08 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:59:58 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:48:55 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 29, 2021, 05:39:11 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PMAnd next you're assuming that every differently abled person *WANTS* top be "Fixed" as well. Large portions of the deaf community in particular refuse cochlear ear implants because they don't see anything wrong with their condition.
They are also smart enough to demand not to go into combat situations. They can believe whatever the hell they want, but reality is a harsh bitch.
I fucking HATE the term "differently abled" as this stupid ointment to the reality that your HINDERED compared to a normal person. No amount of twisting the rest of the universe and kicking & screaming will change the truth.
Your not differently abled. You are DIS-ABLED.
Tensers Floating disk has also existed for a long time. Its more practical then any form of wheelchair and demanding dungeons be made wheelchair accessible.
Singed - A person who went to the disability office for all his life.
Yeah dude, and I work with the differently abled every fucking day as part of my job. You don't speak for all of them, most don't want to be called "Handicapped" or "Hindered" or "Disabled" like they're a broken machine.
And the Wheelchair bound mad scientist did fucking great in my long running Deadlands: Hell on Earth game. As for D&D you're literally talking about a game where the Mundane Human Fighter at 20th Level can pull off ridiculous god like feats no regular human should be able to at all, but a dude in a wheel chair being able to kick ass is just "Stretching disbelief too much."
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:37:52 PM
How many of those real persons that are wheelchair bound go exploring dungeons and killing dragons IRL?
How many people in real life go exploring dungeons and killing Dragons. None, because it's a fucking fantasy.
Yeah man, people in wheelchairs being able to do amazing things, really ridiculous https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUUVfPy0UgI ::)
By the way, that's literally you naysayers getting owned by actual video evidence.
You totally missed the point even after acknowledging it.
You keep conflating (at this point I think intentionally so) real people with make believe characters.
YOU are the one saying we don't think real people this or that, we haven't made that claim as far as I know.
WE are talking fantasy and immersion breaking stuff (for us) like the +10 combat wheelchair, and we are saying there's lots of better options already in the game.
As for your fantasy that most disabled people don't want to be "fixed" well it's just that, a fantasy, we know because choclear implants are still made, prosthetic limbs are still made and R&D is constant in ways to allow the blind to see.
BECAUSE there's a market for that.
Just like in a fantasy world where you can get back your limbs most (I dare say 100%) people would choose to. Only exception being if you can get something "better" like magical Eberron prosthetic limbs or better sight than normal for your species.
Now please do keep beating up your strawman I'm sure you'll kill it.
You are literally mis-representing my argument. Nowhere did I say "All Differently abled people don't want to be fixed" I said there are lots of differently abled people who don't believe they are broken and don't want to be "Fixed". If you have a problem with that, and me literally posting a video of a dude on a speciality built wheel chair doing flips grinding on rails, and showing how he could easily navigate a dunegon in it... Then you are being obstinate and denying reality because you "Just want to be right."
Oh, I'm sure he could totally hold his pace with the non disabled members of the party, totally. Even going up a mountain side, scalling a wall or crawling on a confined space where everybody had to leave their backpacks behind, he would be able to take his wheelchair because Dragons.
So you're not saying all? good thing neither did I claim you did then.
And this is when I call you an SJW because you're just as dishonest as all of them.
Greetings!
*Laughing* Excellent points, my friend!
This whole obsession with some of these people in wanting to force-feed disabled characters stuck in fucking wheelchairs is just mind-boggling. Like Pundit has said though, it is just more of the fucking SJW bullshit going down the checklist of the Oppression Olympics, to use disabled people as yet another oppressed minority group that they can whine and bitch about and have cock-sucking struggle-sessions over how everyone else needs to be less bigoted and more open minded and accepting of "Diversity".
I always remember that SJW's are, deep down, retarded social misfits that are bitter and resentful towards everyone else in the world--especially those people that are more talented, more skilled, better looking, and more professionally and financially successful than they are. SJW's are all about destroying meritocracy, all about hating and tearing down the normal, the beautiful, and the excellent--so they can exalt and wallow in mediocrity, bubble-wrapped in their own delusional thinking. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on September 29, 2021, 07:24:53 PM
As I have stated several times now, in a High Magic campaign, any such disabled character stuck in a wheelchair would most likely be healed, so the whole condition of being disbled in a wheelchair is moot.
You failed to respond, though, when I pointed out that some high-magic worlds - like Eberron - don't have easy access to healing magic. That's why Eberron has things like magic prosthetics even when the prosthetic is no better than the original. Eberron is a steampunk world with lots of arcane gadgets, but very little divine magic.
Even in a different setting with healing magic, though, it's still possible to have reasons why the disability can't or won't be healed. For example, healing magic might not fix congenital conditions. Also, there could be special curses or anti-healing that prevent a disability from being cured. Even aside from magic, the character might have a specific reason why they don't want healing - like if they took a vow for some reason to accept the challenge.
Quote from: SHARK on September 29, 2021, 07:24:53 PM
In a Low-Magic campaign--reviewing the numerous challenges I mentioned--and there are many, many more problems dealing with having a disabled character in a wheelchair attempting to be a functioning member of the adventuring party--that such a disabled character would likely suffer an early and swift death, on the count of them being disabled, slow, and simply not as mobile and functional. Beyond that, any smart party of adventurers would seek to recruit healthy, strong, normal adventurers to be members of their party
And again, you failed to respond to my example of this - that in a low-magic game, a rare magical character could be especially valued and wanted along for reasons other than their health. I brought up the prophetess PC in my vikings game, who was not disabled - but she was a non-combatant who the rest of the warriors gladly brought along for her magical power. They would still have done so even if she was an elderly grandmother who couldn't walk.
Low-magic isn't the same as no-magic.
I do think that in a no-magic historical setting, that a wheelchair-using character is probably not suitable as a PC.
I think someone should rewrite the Illiad, with Achilles as a paraplegic in a wheelchair.
Quote from: Pat on September 29, 2021, 07:54:16 PM
I think someone should rewrite the Illiad, with Achilles as a paraplegic in a wheelchair.
"Lo, I remember ten years ago when the war began and Achilles was impaled by a spear because his wheelchair got stuck in the sand. That's when I decided this woke crew was a bunch of losers and went promptly home to my faithful wife and son before I could accidentally annoy any fickle gods." - Odysseus.
The End.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:37:52 PM
How many of those real persons that are wheelchair bound go exploring dungeons and killing dragons IRL?
I'm sure they'll give the link to the real-world wheelchair spelunkers association any moment now...
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PM
...
Must be real welcoming to a dude in a wheelchair who pulls up to your table and asks to play, "No sorry, you can't play a wheelchair bound character, it's unrealistic because I think you're basically invalids incapable of taking care of yourselves."
...
And here is your problem.
We say: "A wheelchair bound
Adventurer is ridiculous."
Your Reply: "Your saying wheelchair bound
people are basically invalids!"
Wait. What!?
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 29, 2021, 05:12:15 PM
...two faced and this ideology is key to your sense of superiority over others.
...
There is literally NOTHING more key to my sense of superiority over others -- than my sense of superiority over others.
Quote from: Jaeger on September 29, 2021, 08:19:46 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:37:52 PM
How many of those real persons that are wheelchair bound go exploring dungeons and killing dragons IRL?
I'm sure they'll give the link to the real-world wheelchair spelunkers association any moment now...
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PM
...
Must be real welcoming to a dude in a wheelchair who pulls up to your table and asks to play, "No sorry, you can't play a wheelchair bound character, it's unrealistic because I think you're basically invalids incapable of taking care of yourselves."
...
And here is your problem.
We say: "A wheelchair bound Adventurer is ridiculous."
Your Reply: "Your saying wheelchair bound people are basically invalids!"
Wait. What!?
I already pointed that to him, he doesn't seem to know that there's a difference between fantasy and the real world.
And also he seems to believe that there's tons of people that want to play a character just like themselves, with all of their disabilities and everything.
Must be why I play a Wizard in my current game, or why I've played and Elf, Dwarf, Warrior and none of them was near sighted, because I don't need glasses ... Oh Wait.
Quote from: trechriron on September 29, 2021, 08:46:57 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 29, 2021, 05:12:15 PM
...two faced and this ideology is key to your sense of superiority over others.
...
There is literally NOTHING more key to my sense of superiority over others -- than my sense of superiority over others.
That and your very handsome White Jack Black avatar.
Quote from: Jaeger on September 29, 2021, 08:19:46 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:37:52 PM
How many of those real persons that are wheelchair bound go exploring dungeons and killing dragons IRL?
I'm sure they'll give the link to the real-world wheelchair spelunkers association any moment now...
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PM
...
Must be real welcoming to a dude in a wheelchair who pulls up to your table and asks to play, "No sorry, you can't play a wheelchair bound character, it's unrealistic because I think you're basically invalids incapable of taking care of yourselves."
...
And here is your problem.
We say: "A wheelchair bound Adventurer is ridiculous."
Your Reply: "Your saying wheelchair bound people are basically invalids!"
Wait. What!?
I'm reminded of the character in the Guardians of the Flame novels who was disabled and in a wheelchair and played RPGs partly as an escape from his "real life" condition.
We've come full circle that disability must be accomadated in fiction in order to validate players. I reject that idea.
If someone wants to play a character in a wheelchair in an RPG game, they are going to have to deal with the concept that a person is in a wheelchair for a reason, and that reason is because their goddamn legs don't work. Either well or at all. And that mobility issue is an issue. Not something to be dismissed so they can roll around a dungeon with no concern about how being in a wheelchair might impact a character's ability to do things.
Quote from: trechriron on September 29, 2021, 08:46:57 PMThere is literally NOTHING more key to my sense of superiority over others -- than my sense of superiority over others.
You have me beat. For some the ideology grants them a sense of superiority, for others, its their sense of superiority that attracts them to the movement.
Quote from: jhkim on September 29, 2021, 07:53:12 PM
Quote from: SHARK on September 29, 2021, 07:24:53 PM
As I have stated several times now, in a High Magic campaign, any such disabled character stuck in a wheelchair would most likely be healed, so the whole condition of being disbled in a wheelchair is moot.
You failed to respond, though, when I pointed out that some high-magic worlds - like Eberron - don't have easy access to healing magic. That's why Eberron has things like magic prosthetics even when the prosthetic is no better than the original. Eberron is a steampunk world with lots of arcane gadgets, but very little divine magic.
Even in a different setting with healing magic, though, it's still possible to have reasons why the disability can't or won't be healed. For example, healing magic might not fix congenital conditions. Also, there could be special curses or anti-healing that prevent a disability from being cured. Even aside from magic, the character might have a specific reason why they don't want healing - like if they took a vow for some reason to accept the challenge.
Quote from: SHARK on September 29, 2021, 07:24:53 PM
In a Low-Magic campaign--reviewing the numerous challenges I mentioned--and there are many, many more problems dealing with having a disabled character in a wheelchair attempting to be a functioning member of the adventuring party--that such a disabled character would likely suffer an early and swift death, on the count of them being disabled, slow, and simply not as mobile and functional. Beyond that, any smart party of adventurers would seek to recruit healthy, strong, normal adventurers to be members of their party
And again, you failed to respond to my example of this - that in a low-magic game, a rare magical character could be especially valued and wanted along for reasons other than their health. I brought up the prophetess PC in my vikings game, who was not disabled - but she was a non-combatant who the rest of the warriors gladly brought along for her magical power. They would still have done so even if she was an elderly grandmother who couldn't walk.
Low-magic isn't the same as no-magic.
I do think that in a no-magic historical setting, that a wheelchair-using character is probably not suitable as a PC.
Greetings!
Yes, Jhkim, I didn't respond to your examples because they are arguing from an extreme, or an edge case. Eberron is a *Steampunk* setting--clearly not a more medieval world that most D&D campaigns are like. Second of all--it's irrelevant. The magic in the basic rules set out in the Player's Handbook makes both of your edge cases irrelevant. The typicalD&D campaign is going to embrace the standard magic spells in the Player's Handbook--hence, in most D&D games--that are standard rules games--as well as most set in Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms, not to mention the average D&D campaign that is similarly high magic--such a disability as being stuck in a wheelchair is a laughably simple issue to deal with.
Logically, a character can be roasted by dragonfire, and chomped on and swallowed whole by a dragon or any other numerous creatures--chewed and shredded, scourged with stomach acid--and be swiftly healed and made whole just fine.
But some fucker in a wheelchair, no, no, the magic can't handle that!
The argument is absurd.
Next, in your Low-Magic example, well, she was a prophetess, with uber magical powers. Great. She still wasn't stuck in a fucking wheelchair. I'd think that is obvious. She doesn't have the vast array of challenges and actual, enormous barriers to basic movement, basic mobility, that someone stuck in a wheelchair has. The example is like apples and oranges.
Beyond that, well, yeah, even someone not otherwise disabled, but pathetic and weak can be rejected and probably should be by an ambitious party wanting to adventure. Pathetic, weak characters don't make good companions, regardless of how many super-special some people want their gimped character to be.
I've done an exercise before--I checked weight of items for adventuring in the PHB, and any character with pretty much less than a 12 strength can stay the fuck home. They can barely wear a robe, backpack, bedroll, some rations, rope and water-skin. Beyond that they start suffering movement penalties and so on. I was dismayed by how exactly pathetic a Wizard with a 10 strength really is. Point being, being able to carry your own gear, have space for treasure, nd being able to perform common physical tasks like riding, climbing, crawling, swimming, jumping over stuff, and so on, are vitally important skills and maneuvers--even for otherwise normal but weak characters. If they are really that weak and pathetic, they too are going to suffer from a cascade of problems throughout the campaign.
You explained that your party gladly and cheerfully brought along a weak and pathetic character--and presumably carried her load and coddled her in everything--cheerfully, because of her magic. Ok, good. I've known many groups that would have dropped her ass off at the town's poor house, and gone on to the tavern and recruited a different magical character that could keep up and not be so absolutely pathetic, helpless, and dependent for everyone around her to carry her. *Shrugs* So, that example doesn't really argue much in a Low-Magic world. I still think most parties in a low-magic world are always going to prefer and prioritize recruiting reasonably functional, self-sufficient characters that can move on their own, carry their own weight, and not be a constant burden on the rest of the party. I've played with many, many groups where the party expects everyone to be self-sufficient and reasonably skilled, functional, and able to do basic stuff. Can't measure up? They dump your sorry ass and then look at me--the DM--and say, "Fuck them! We need some new people that aren't fucking pussies! DM, we hang out in the local tavern, and seek to recruit some new members to the group! That Warlock and Rogue we had in the last number of sessions were fucking retarded! New people better have their shit together!" I've watched the majority of the members of such groups argue loudly for basically competent characters. They aren't keen on coddling helpless weaklings, regardless of whatever Mary Sue special bells and whistles you try and dress them up with.
Thus, I didn't find your Low-Magic campaign argument--your example--especially compelling or persuasive, considering my own experience with numerous game groups.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Jaeger on September 29, 2021, 08:19:46 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:37:52 PM
How many of those real persons that are wheelchair bound go exploring dungeons and killing dragons IRL?
I'm sure they'll give the link to the real-world wheelchair spelunkers association any moment now...
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PM
...
Must be real welcoming to a dude in a wheelchair who pulls up to your table and asks to play, "No sorry, you can't play a wheelchair bound character, it's unrealistic because I think you're basically invalids incapable of taking care of yourselves."
...
And here is your problem.
We say: "A wheelchair bound Adventurer is ridiculous."
Your Reply: "Your saying wheelchair bound people are basically invalids!"
Wait. What!?
Greetings!
Exactly, Jaeger!
Now I'm such a rude, unwelcoming bastard to disabled players! ::)
I suppose a player could attempt to play a disabled character stuck in a fucking wheelchair in my campaign--but, just like the real world that is harsh and brutal, they wouldn't last long. Simply because they CAN'T KEEP THE FUCK UP. That's the harsh truth these people are delusional and in denial about. In the game world, crawling into sewers and dungeons, and fighting off trp and terrible monsters...yeah, the person stuck in a fucking wheelchair would likely be the first to get eaten and die. WHY?
Because bringing someone that is in a wheelchair into a dungeon to fight monsters and struggle through a harsh environment is just stupid, that's why.
And if the actual player didn't like it, and acted like a bitch, *shrugs* Sorry, the world doesn't coddle you and instantly become "wheelchair accessible" just because you are stupid enough to insist on bringing a fucking disabled character into the group that is crippled by being stuck in a fucking wheelchair. Such wheelchair characters need to be on the porch fishing and staying safe and away from danger--not trying to run with the big dogs down harsh dungeons crawling through caves and fighting monsters.
*laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 08:56:49 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on September 29, 2021, 08:19:46 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:37:52 PM
How many of those real persons that are wheelchair bound go exploring dungeons and killing dragons IRL?
I'm sure they'll give the link to the real-world wheelchair spelunkers association any moment now...
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PM
...
Must be real welcoming to a dude in a wheelchair who pulls up to your table and asks to play, "No sorry, you can't play a wheelchair bound character, it's unrealistic because I think you're basically invalids incapable of taking care of yourselves."
...
And here is your problem.
We say: "A wheelchair bound Adventurer is ridiculous."
Your Reply: "Your saying wheelchair bound people are basically invalids!"
Wait. What!?
I already pointed that to him, he doesn't seem to know that there's a difference between fantasy and the real world.
And also he seems to believe that there's tons of people that want to play a character just like themselves, with all of their disabilities and everything.
Must be why I play a Wizard in my current game, or why I've played and Elf, Dwarf, Warrior and none of them was near sighted, because I don't need glasses ... Oh Wait.
Greetings!
*Laughing* That's right my friend! What moron *wants* to play a disabled character?
I've had a player that had a character that lost his left arm in battle. We had a blacksmith forge some kind of weird iron claw-hand thing he got fixed to himself with. It had a iron claw, and a spike on it. He managed to survive, having lost h left arm. Not many players though want to play disabled characters. Severely disabled characters--like those stuck in wheelchairs--are simply retired. Time to roll up a new character! Same thing with characters that go insane, or become mutated. They are packed off to an asylum out in the countryside to live out their golden years, being doted on by nice, sweet nurses. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on September 29, 2021, 10:31:04 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 08:56:49 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on September 29, 2021, 08:19:46 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 05:37:52 PM
How many of those real persons that are wheelchair bound go exploring dungeons and killing dragons IRL?
I'm sure they'll give the link to the real-world wheelchair spelunkers association any moment now...
Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:32:18 PM
...
Must be real welcoming to a dude in a wheelchair who pulls up to your table and asks to play, "No sorry, you can't play a wheelchair bound character, it's unrealistic because I think you're basically invalids incapable of taking care of yourselves."
...
And here is your problem.
We say: "A wheelchair bound Adventurer is ridiculous."
Your Reply: "Your saying wheelchair bound people are basically invalids!"
Wait. What!?
I already pointed that to him, he doesn't seem to know that there's a difference between fantasy and the real world.
And also he seems to believe that there's tons of people that want to play a character just like themselves, with all of their disabilities and everything.
Must be why I play a Wizard in my current game, or why I've played and Elf, Dwarf, Warrior and none of them was near sighted, because I don't need glasses ... Oh Wait.
Greetings!
*Laughing* That's right my friend! What moron *wants* to play a disabled character?
I've had a player that had a character that lost his left arm in battle. We had a blacksmith forge some kind of weird iron claw-hand thing he got fixed to himself with. It had a iron claw, and a spike on it. He managed to survive, having lost h left arm. Not many players though want to play disabled characters. Severely disabled characters--like those stuck in wheelchairs--are simply retired. Time to roll up a new character! Same thing with characters that go insane, or become mutated. They are packed off to an asylum out in the countryside to live out their golden years, being doted on by nice, sweet nurses. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Those who have bought into IdPol my friend.
Sadly there's some among the disabled, which is where the cries about cochlear implants come from. Soon selling those will get you branded as a bigot, because "erasure".
Me? I don't want to play a Maya/Spaniard mongrel with bad eyesight, I want to be someone else, Conan, Gandalf, The Shadow, Arsenio Lupin...
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 11:05:47 PM
Me? I don't want to play a Maya/Spaniard mongrel with bad eyesight, I want to be someone else, Conan, Gandalf, The Shadow, Arsenio Lupin...
(https://i.imgur.com/degZoeq.png)
Quote from: palaeomerus on September 29, 2021, 11:34:46 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 11:05:47 PM
Me? I don't want to play a Maya/Spaniard mongrel with bad eyesight, I want to be someone else, Conan, Gandalf, The Shadow, Arsenio Lupin...
(https://i.imgur.com/degZoeq.png)
I LOLed.
I'm going to focus the prophetess in my vikings campaign, because I think it gets most at the question here.
Quote from: SHARK on September 29, 2021, 10:11:22 PM
You explained that your party gladly and cheerfully brought along a weak and pathetic character--and presumably carried her load and coddled her in everything--cheerfully, because of her magic. Ok, good. I've known many groups that would have dropped her ass off at the town's poor house, and gone on to the tavern and recruited a different magical character that could keep up and not be so absolutely pathetic, helpless, and dependent for everyone around her to carry her. *Shrugs* So, that example doesn't really argue much in a Low-Magic world. I still think most parties in a low-magic world are always going to prefer and prioritize recruiting reasonably functional, self-sufficient characters that can move on their own, carry their own weight, and not be a constant burden on the rest of the party. I've played with many, many groups where the party expects everyone to be self-sufficient and reasonably skilled, functional, and able to do basic stuff. Can't measure up? They dump your sorry ass
Yes, Silksif was weak physically (STR 8, CON 10, SIZ 9) - but the point is that no one considered her a burden because she was very powerful magically. The group was more powerful and successful for having her than if they had, say, another of their best fighter Skallagrim. It's not coddling because objectively, they win more battles for having her on their side than almost any other person they could select. The game was low-magic in the sense that there were no fireballs or other flashy magic, but there were spirits and charms and monsters that all had concrete and major effects.
The question for the team is - how much more powerful is the team as a whole for having this person? Drawbacks will factor into that - whether physical, mental, or magical - but so will strengths.
Surely you can understand that some degree of magical power would make her an equal or even overpowered compared to the others. What if she was, say, the equivalent of a 15th level D&D wizard? Then I'd say she was the opposite of a burden - she'd be overpowered and too much for the party, regardless of her physical strength. At some point, there's a balance point where the magical ability compensates for physical weakness.
It is essentially wanting to play character with flas yet also without any disabilities associated with said flaws. Blind character with 20/20 vision or wanting to be in the flying tank equivalent of a wheelchair.
In my games the cities may be up to code. The enemy lairs let alone the wilderness outside of the same city good luck.
What gets me is one can see those speaking without any kind of disability speaking for someone like myself who has to wear glasses due to issues with my eyesight. Trying to pass it off as some kind of common cold. I hate wearing glasses and many in my situation probably feel the same way. If we could and somehow get 20/20 vision we could. Even if it meant stepping over those trying to stop us from getting it.
As for the Cochlear implants good luck banning those as anyone who tries will probably get counter sued into bankruptcy.
Quote from: sureshot on September 30, 2021, 11:41:32 AM
It is essentially wanting to play character with flas yet also without any disabilities associated with said flaws. Blind character with 20/20 vision or wanting to be in the flying tank equivalent of a wheelchair.
So what?
I like Daredevil. In game balance terms, he shouldn't get massive points for his blindness - but I don't see a problem with him existing as a fictional character, or with someone playing him in an RPG.
Quote from: sureshot on September 30, 2021, 11:41:32 AM
It is essentially wanting to play character with flas yet also without any disabilities associated with said flaws. Blind character with 20/20 vision or wanting to be in the flying tank equivalent of a wheelchair.
In my games the cities may be up to code. The enemy lairs let alone the wilderness outside of the same city good luck.
What gets me is one can see those speaking without any kind of disability speaking for someone like myself who has to wear glasses due to issues with my eyesight. Trying to pass it off as some kind of common cold. I hate wearing glasses and many in my situation probably feel the same way. If we could and somehow get 20/20 vision we could. Even if it meant stepping over those trying to stop us from getting it.
As for the Cochlear implants good luck banning those as anyone who tries will probably get counter sued into bankruptcy.
Correct. I can't remember if it was Champions or Mutants and Masterminds, but the book straight up states:
'If your disadvantage isn't really limiting, then it's not a disadvantage and isn't worth any points.'
So I've been thinking about this circular argument. There's not much we can do to stop the sjw's. There seems to always be a demographic that will champion the wheelchair of representation.
What I've decided for my fantasy rpg's I will take it on a case by case basis. I won't allow a wheelchair bound pc. The adventure/wilderness simply doesn't allow it. For the same reason I don't let people play centaur's, they're not a pc race in my games.
But as others have pointed out characters with missing arms/legs have been played for years. So the argument is alive just for the arguments sake.
The problem I have is the sjdubs seem to want to force me to utilize their philosophy. And I won't do it.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 30, 2021, 12:19:21 PM
I can't remember if it was Champions or Mutants and Masterminds, but the book straight up states:
'If your disadvantage isn't really limiting, then it's not a disadvantage and isn't worth any points.'
That's a Champions quote. It's in big bold type at the start of the Disadvantages section (from page 117 my 4th ed book),
QuoteA Disadvantage that isn't a Disadvantage isn't worth any points!
The intent here is that characters should be balanced. Daredevil shouldn't be more powerful than other characters because he's blind. He should be an equal to other characters. Even when I'm not playing Champions, I try to keep the spirit of this true in other games.
But the complaint that SHARK makes isn't that disabled characters are too powerful because they got free points for disadvantages that aren't really disadvantages. He's saying that they're too weak.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 30, 2021, 12:29:22 PM
So I've been thinking about this circular argument. There's not much we can do to stop the sjw's. There seems to always be a demographic that will champion the wheelchair of representation.
What I've decided for my fantasy rpg's I will take it on a case by case basis. I won't allow a wheelchair bound pc. The adventure/wilderness simply doesn't allow it. For the same reason I don't let people play centaur's, they're not a pc race in my games.
But as others have pointed out characters with missing arms/legs have been played for years. So the argument is alive just for the arguments sake.
The problem I have is the sjdubs seem to want to force me to utilize their philosophy. And I won't do it.
Don't give money to people who hate you.
They can masturbate to their ideas of diversity all they like, but under no circumstance should you help them.
Quote from: jhkim on September 30, 2021, 12:47:01 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 30, 2021, 12:19:21 PM
I can't remember if it was Champions or Mutants and Masterminds, but the book straight up states:
'If your disadvantage isn't really limiting, then it's not a disadvantage and isn't worth any points.'
That's a Champions quote. It's in big bold type at the start of the Disadvantages section (from page 117 my 4th ed book),
QuoteA Disadvantage that isn't a Disadvantage isn't worth any points!
The intent here is that characters should be balanced. Daredevil shouldn't be more powerful than other characters because he's blind. He should be an equal to other characters. Even when I'm not playing Champions, I try to keep the spirit of this true in other games.
But the complaint that SHARK makes isn't that disabled characters are too powerful because they got free points for disadvantages that aren't really disadvantages. He's saying that they're too weak.
Which is amusing, since my contention is that the wheelchair is wholly unbalanced and does not belong in the game. I would sooner allow a diplomancer build or Pun-Pun than a combat wheelchair.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 30, 2021, 12:29:22 PM
...
The problem I have is the sjdubs seem to want to force me to utilize their philosophy. And I won't do it.
THIS sjdubs (hilarious) would never force you to do anything. It's anathema to my sense of liberty. I might debate this with you, but never would I tell you you HAVE to do what I'm saying. I might jokingly order you around, but I fully expect some snarky pushback. :-)
I also don't believe the prevalent movement arguing for wheelchaired adventurers is insisting that you use that in your game. They are ASTONISHED (I say) that you wouldn't. But that's hardly a rule you have to follow. There is a LOT of fascism coupled with hang-wringing going on across the InterTubes. People just want everyone else to shut up and do what they tell them to.
I don't think you're wrong for not wanting a wheelchaired adventurer in your game. For a typical high-fantasy romp through wilderness and dungeons? I would likely not allow it either. Maybe if it was a magic item using a Tensor's Floating Disc?
Here's the REAL issue. The fundamental problem underlying all this fascism and hand-wringing.
People have become terribly fucking selfish. To the point that NOTHING matters outside the 1cm airspace around them.If you are going to play a character bound to a wheelchair, have you asked the table if they are willing to play in adventures limited by your choice? Does anyone else's' opinion matter? Isn't this supposed to be a group activity?
I would likely discuss the options, explain the consequences of those choices, and then let the group weigh in. If everyone is comfortable with it, and I can imagine cool adventures that accommodate it, then I would say "yes".
In Aliens 4, there was a cool engineer dude in a wheelchair with the hidden "some assembly required" shotgun. It DID affect the entire group however. They felt compelled to keep their companion with them despite the obstacles. It served as a great moral dilemma and increased the drama. So, it's not always going to be a "no". Also, not always a "yes".
I understand that Cancel Culture, Political Correctness, Special Snowflake Syndrome has effectively ruined our ability to communicate or even relate to one another. And I hate that. I don't like any of that shit. I may be liberal, but I'm NOT a fascist and I respect my conservative friends opinions.
I just wish the crowd HERE would calm down. Notice I don't post on TBP. This is my internet home for RPGs. Because I can say what I want and interact with people who can say what they want. Funny how freedom actually works. The truth is - all the "woke" games hardly impact the breadth of amazing games available out there. Just because some fascist insists that you can't play their game doesn't mean you can't buy it and play it. Them is just words.
Find the RPGs you love. Play them. Talk about them. Stop worrying about what the "popular kids" are doing and find your joy in the RPG space. In other words -
Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke.
Quote from: trechriron on September 30, 2021, 01:31:58 PMStuff
While I disagree with your terminology of Fascism (Totalitarianism is a better fit), I think I agree with everything you say. If you can respect other peoples choice and keep others in mind and don't demand the world to adapt to you, then its generally reasonable by me.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 30, 2021, 01:15:40 PM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 30, 2021, 12:29:22 PM
So I've been thinking about this circular argument. There's not much we can do to stop the sjw's. There seems to always be a demographic that will champion the wheelchair of representation.
What I've decided for my fantasy rpg's I will take it on a case by case basis. I won't allow a wheelchair bound pc. The adventure/wilderness simply doesn't allow it. For the same reason I don't let people play centaur's, they're not a pc race in my games.
But as others have pointed out characters with missing arms/legs have been played for years. So the argument is alive just for the arguments sake.
The problem I have is the sjdubs seem to want to force me to utilize their philosophy. And I won't do it.
Don't give money to people who hate you.
They can masturbate to their ideas of diversity all they like, but under no circumstance should you help them.
Quote from: jhkim on September 30, 2021, 12:47:01 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 30, 2021, 12:19:21 PM
I can't remember if it was Champions or Mutants and Masterminds, but the book straight up states:
'If your disadvantage isn't really limiting, then it's not a disadvantage and isn't worth any points.'
That's a Champions quote. It's in big bold type at the start of the Disadvantages section (from page 117 my 4th ed book),
QuoteA Disadvantage that isn't a Disadvantage isn't worth any points!
The intent here is that characters should be balanced. Daredevil shouldn't be more powerful than other characters because he's blind. He should be an equal to other characters. Even when I'm not playing Champions, I try to keep the spirit of this true in other games.
But the complaint that SHARK makes isn't that disabled characters are too powerful because they got free points for disadvantages that aren't really disadvantages. He's saying that they're too weak.
Which is amusing, since my contention is that the wheelchair is wholly unbalanced and does not belong in the game. I would sooner allow a diplomancer build or Pun-Pun than a combat wheelchair.
Explain how the wheelchair is unbalanced. Not liking it is one thing, but saying it's mechanically unbalanced like the examples you gave sounds like the rantings of a total idiot.
Quote from: trechriron on September 30, 2021, 01:31:58 PM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 30, 2021, 12:29:22 PM
...
The problem I have is the sjdubs seem to want to force me to utilize their philosophy. And I won't do it.
THIS sjdubs (hilarious) would never force you to do anything. It's anathema to my sense of liberty. I might debate this with you, but never would I tell you you HAVE to do what I'm saying. I might jokingly order you around, but I fully expect some snarky pushback. :-)
I also don't believe the prevalent movement arguing for wheelchaired adventurers is insisting that you use that in your game. They are ASTONISHED (I say) that you wouldn't. But that's hardly a rule you have to follow. There is a LOT of fascism coupled with hang-wringing going on across the InterTubes. People just want everyone else to shut up and do what they tell them to.
I don't think you're wrong for not wanting a wheelchaired adventurer in your game. For a typical high-fantasy romp through wilderness and dungeons? I would likely not allow it either. Maybe if it was a magic item using a Tensor's Floating Disc?
Here's the REAL issue. The fundamental problem underlying all this fascism and hand-wringing.
People have become terribly fucking selfish. To the point that NOTHING matters outside the 1cm airspace around them.
If you are going to play a character bound to a wheelchair, have you asked the table if they are willing to play in adventures limited by your choice? Does anyone else's' opinion matter? Isn't this supposed to be a group activity?
I would likely discuss the options, explain the consequences of those choices, and then let the group weigh in. If everyone is comfortable with it, and I can imagine cool adventures that accommodate it, then I would say "yes".
In Aliens 4, there was a cool engineer dude in a wheelchair with the hidden "some assembly required" shotgun. It DID affect the entire group however. They felt compelled to keep their companion with them despite the obstacles. It served as a great moral dilemma and increased the drama. So, it's not always going to be a "no". Also, not always a "yes".
I understand that Cancel Culture, Political Correctness, Special Snowflake Syndrome has effectively ruined our ability to communicate or even relate to one another. And I hate that. I don't like any of that shit. I may be liberal, but I'm NOT a fascist and I respect my conservative friends opinions.
I just wish the crowd HERE would calm down. Notice I don't post on TBP. This is my internet home for RPGs. Because I can say what I want and interact with people who can say what they want. Funny how freedom actually works. The truth is - all the "woke" games hardly impact the breadth of amazing games available out there. Just because some fascist insists that you can't play their game doesn't mean you can't buy it and play it. Them is just words.
Find the RPGs you love. Play them. Talk about them. Stop worrying about what the "popular kids" are doing and find your joy in the RPG space. In other words - Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke.
Sure, they can't force anyone to play at his home as they wish.
Can you say the same about LGS/Conventions?
Just take a look at the X-Card style BS being implemented everywhere.
So I have to retreat to my basement while they dictate the culture around me and soon enough they will find a way to go mess with that too.
They ARE fascists, perfectly willing to have the state marry the corporations as long as the wind blows in their favor and to use all that power against anyone they deem an Istophobe.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 30, 2021, 02:00:54 PM
Sure, they can't force anyone to play at his home as they wish.
Can you say the same about LGS/Conventions?
Just take a look at the X-Card style BS being implemented everywhere.
So I have to retreat to my basement while they dictate the culture around me and soon enough they will find a way to go mess with that too.
They ARE fascists, perfectly willing to have the state marry the corporations as long as the wind blows in their favor and to use all that power against anyone they deem an Istophobe.
See, and that's the problem right. Let's say for arguments sake, I volunteer to referee a fantasy game in 5th edition at some convention. The advertisement for my game specifically say something like....."this game is a dungeon crawl being ran in a Tolkien like world" So magic is uncommon but for a one shot con game I'll let people play any class they want, including all the magic using classes because the pc's are special.
Now, how specific do I have to be? What if I said "no wheelchair pc's allowed as this is a dungeon crawl". Is there a better way to word that so that I don't get thrown out of the con immediately. Because that's how I suspect it would go down. I suspect people are not adults and someone would tattle to convention staff and I'd get escorted from the premises.
Now if I said I'm running DCC at a con would anyone even expect to play a wheelchair bound pc? I know I'm harping on the wheelchair but it's a good example. Again, I suspect someone, because they're children, would want to sit at the table and gatekeep the game to make sure I wasn't an istaphobe. That's how much faith I do not have in people.
Maybe I'm being too negative. Idk
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 30, 2021, 02:32:49 PM
...
Maybe I'm being too negative. Idk
Your concerns are legit. I see a few cons requiring the X-Card, but there are many MORE that do not. I've tried the questionaire method, and it didn't fly with my table. Here's how I handle it;
1. I bring pre-gens. Always. You pick from the pile. (so weird how there's not a wheelchair character in here...)
2. I explain the game is PG-13. Period. Anything not acceptable in a PG-13 movie will be "fade to black" at the table.
3. Let's agree to be adults and respect one another's time. Don't be edgy or controversial for attention's sake. The goal here is to have fun, not offend each other.
4. If something offends you - say something. We can quickly move to another scene and NOT disrupt the game. Let's trust one another's judgement and be respectful. A simple "nope" while getting eye-contact with me will shut a scene down without drama.
If the con insists on x-cards, I don't run games there. There are plenty of cool board games, card games, panels, etc. in most cons to make it worth it. If nothing piques my interest and I can't run/play RPGs without bullshit, I won't go. Not worth the drama. I imagine a year or two with little participation they will relax those requirements. I can't even imagine Organized Play adopting the x-card in any meaningful way (sure, it's mentioned in the books for both PF2e and 5e, but who's using it?)
Quote from: trechriron on September 30, 2021, 02:43:36 PM
Your concerns are legit. I see a few cons requiring the X-Card, but there are many MORE that do not. I've tried the questionaire method, and it didn't fly with my table. Here's how I handle it;
1. I bring pre-gens. Always. You pick from the pile. (so weird how there's not a wheelchair character in here...)
2. I explain the game is PG-13. Period. Anything not acceptable in a PG-13 movie will be "fade to black" at the table.
3. Let's agree to be adults and respect one another's time. Don't be edgy or controversial for attention's sake. The goal here is to have fun, not offend each other.
4. If something offends you - say something. We can quickly move to another scene and NOT disrupt the game. Let's trust one another's judgement and be respectful. A simple "nope" while getting eye-contact with me will shut a scene down without drama.
If the con insists on x-cards, I don't run games there. There are plenty of cool board games, card games, panels, etc. in most cons to make it worth it. If nothing piques my interest and I can't run/play RPGs without bullshit, I won't go. Not worth the drama. I imagine a year or two with little participation they will relax those requirements. I can't even imagine Organized Play adopting the x-card in any meaningful way (sure, it's mentioned in the books for both PF2e and 5e, but who's using it?)
See that is the way to do it. Thank you for the response.
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 02:00:37 PM
Explain how the wheelchair is unbalanced. Not liking it is one thing, but saying it's mechanically unbalanced like the examples you gave sounds like the rantings of a total idiot.
I thought about just ignoring you, but you know, I think you deserve this.
Why exactly does a 200gp (uncommon equivalent) magic item (and don't fucking lie; this is a magic item) grant proficiency in tinker's tool, advantage on saves versus being knocked prone, is almost indestructible (assuming you even use those rules), can be driven with one hand (beacon stone) and suffers no issues from going up or down stairs (the arguments about handicapped-accessible dungeons don't really apply, to be honest) and ladders, three new attack options (which you are proficient in, and use the better of your Strength or Dexterity), counts as part of your body for the purposes of magical effects and polymorph, counts as a mount for purposes of using a lance or mounted combat, and can be upgraded to add additional effects (including allowing for telepathic control, turning it into a submersible, sprouting spider legs, or equipping a ram that lets you attack three targets at once)?
This is all from the goddamn PDF, mind you.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 30, 2021, 03:33:08 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 02:00:37 PM
Explain how the wheelchair is unbalanced. Not liking it is one thing, but saying it's mechanically unbalanced like the examples you gave sounds like the rantings of a total idiot.
I thought about just ignoring you, but you know, I think you deserve this.
Why exactly does a 200gp (uncommon equivalent) magic item (and don't fucking lie; this is a magic item) grant proficiency in tinker's tool, advantage on saves versus being knocked prone, is almost indestructible (assuming you even use those rules), can be driven with one hand (beacon stone) and suffers no issues from going up or down stairs (the arguments about handicapped-accessible dungeons don't really apply, to be honest) and ladders, three new attack options (which you are proficient in, and use the better of your Strength or Dexterity), counts as part of your body for the purposes of magical effects and polymorph, counts as a mount for purposes of using a lance or mounted combat, and can be upgraded to add additional effects (including allowing for telepathic control, turning it into a submersible, sprouting spider legs, or equipping a ram that lets you attack three targets at once)?
This is all from the goddamn PDF, mind you.
Those rules are pretty fucking silly (I'm taking your word for how they work). I had thought the chair was just a cosmetic effect (as much as having legs vs a snake body is really a cosmetic effect as far as most game mechanics are concerned). I certainly wouldn't use those rules if I played that game, and the game I do play that has a "mobiltiy chair" starts it off as just allowing you to move like everyone else (and it is gear with no special protection from effects that target gear). Beyond that, if you want more features (such as integrated weapons), you have to pay for the upgrades and they are roughly equal to what other characters would pay for equivalent abilities in non-chair gear.
Still, I'm not seeing the rules you describe as being on a Pun-Pun level of game-breaking crazy.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 30, 2021, 03:33:08 PM
I thought about just ignoring you, but you know, I think you deserve this.
Why exactly does a 200gp (uncommon equivalent) magic item (and don't fucking lie; this is a magic item) grant proficiency in tinker's tool, advantage on saves versus being knocked prone, is almost indestructible (assuming you even use those rules), can be driven with one hand (beacon stone) and suffers no issues from going up or down stairs (the arguments about handicapped-accessible dungeons don't really apply, to be honest) and ladders, three new attack options (which you are proficient in, and use the better of your Strength or Dexterity), counts as part of your body for the purposes of magical effects and polymorph, counts as a mount for purposes of using a lance or mounted combat, and can be upgraded to add additional effects (including allowing for telepathic control, turning it into a submersible, sprouting spider legs, or equipping a ram that lets you attack three targets at once)?
This is all from the goddamn PDF, mind you.
Yeah. Tis why I've gone back to earlier editions of the game. Where a permanency spell was needed for magic items. Loss of Con etc. etc. That's not to say a demi-god or a disabled wizard couldn't have made one. We got the Apparatus of Kwalish.
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 03:57:22 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 30, 2021, 03:33:08 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 02:00:37 PM
Explain how the wheelchair is unbalanced. Not liking it is one thing, but saying it's mechanically unbalanced like the examples you gave sounds like the rantings of a total idiot.
I thought about just ignoring you, but you know, I think you deserve this.
Why exactly does a 200gp (uncommon equivalent) magic item (and don't fucking lie; this is a magic item) grant proficiency in tinker's tool, advantage on saves versus being knocked prone, is almost indestructible (assuming you even use those rules), can be driven with one hand (beacon stone) and suffers no issues from going up or down stairs (the arguments about handicapped-accessible dungeons don't really apply, to be honest) and ladders, three new attack options (which you are proficient in, and use the better of your Strength or Dexterity), counts as part of your body for the purposes of magical effects and polymorph, counts as a mount for purposes of using a lance or mounted combat, and can be upgraded to add additional effects (including allowing for telepathic control, turning it into a submersible, sprouting spider legs, or equipping a ram that lets you attack three targets at once)?
This is all from the goddamn PDF, mind you.
Those rules are pretty fucking silly (I'm taking your word for how they work). I had thought the chair was just a cosmetic effect (as much as having legs vs a snake body is really a cosmetic effect as far as most game mechanics are concerned). I certainly wouldn't use those rules if I played that game, and the game I do play that has a "mobiltiy chair" starts it off as just allowing you to move like everyone else (and it is gear with no special protection from effects that target gear). Beyond that, if you want more features (such as integrated weapons), you have to pay for the upgrades and they are roughly equal to what other characters would pay for equivalent abilities in non-chair gear.
Still, I'm not seeing the rules you describe as being on a Pun-Pun level of game-breaking crazy.
Sigh. Think about it.
When people bring up 'Pun-Pun', 'diplomancer', or some other meme-worthy cringe build, your reaction should be like mine: groan, facepalm, throw things at person suggesting it, etc.
Instead, we're being subjected to a constant drivel of 'BUT MUH DIVERSITY' regarding the wheelchair. This thing should be mocked ceaselessly, and yet nobody wants to do so (outside present company). Why? Because 'ohnoez, that would be mean to disabled people' or some such bullshit.
THAT is why it's worse. It's broken bullshit and doesn't even have the good grace to admit it.
Also, the damn thing has no rules about tripping ground traps that I can find. I guess because tripwires and pressure plates make the author feel bad. I'm also still stunned that they tried to sell this thing as nominally indestructible (three critical hits in an encounter, seriously?!), knowing that even modern wheelchairs can get fucked up with normal wear and tear.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 30, 2021, 03:57:55 PM
Yeah. Tis why I've gone back to earlier editions of the game. Where a permanency spell was needed for magic items. Loss of Con etc. etc. That's not to say a demi-god or a disabled wizard couldn't have made one. We got the Apparatus of Kwalish.
See, the Apparatus makes for an interesting major magic item or minor artifact (it's a legendary item in 5E). It's RARE. You can't buy it from any fine merchant like you're going to Aurora's in the Realms.
If we is going "Magical Wheelchair" route- Tensers floating disk is still a level 1 spell FFS.
A magic item for a permanent one of those, is all you need. You can make a custom armchair to put on to yourself.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 30, 2021, 04:06:41 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 03:57:22 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 30, 2021, 03:33:08 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 02:00:37 PM
Explain how the wheelchair is unbalanced. Not liking it is one thing, but saying it's mechanically unbalanced like the examples you gave sounds like the rantings of a total idiot.
I thought about just ignoring you, but you know, I think you deserve this.
Why exactly does a 200gp (uncommon equivalent) magic item (and don't fucking lie; this is a magic item) grant proficiency in tinker's tool, advantage on saves versus being knocked prone, is almost indestructible (assuming you even use those rules), can be driven with one hand (beacon stone) and suffers no issues from going up or down stairs (the arguments about handicapped-accessible dungeons don't really apply, to be honest) and ladders, three new attack options (which you are proficient in, and use the better of your Strength or Dexterity), counts as part of your body for the purposes of magical effects and polymorph, counts as a mount for purposes of using a lance or mounted combat, and can be upgraded to add additional effects (including allowing for telepathic control, turning it into a submersible, sprouting spider legs, or equipping a ram that lets you attack three targets at once)?
This is all from the goddamn PDF, mind you.
Those rules are pretty fucking silly (I'm taking your word for how they work). I had thought the chair was just a cosmetic effect (as much as having legs vs a snake body is really a cosmetic effect as far as most game mechanics are concerned). I certainly wouldn't use those rules if I played that game, and the game I do play that has a "mobiltiy chair" starts it off as just allowing you to move like everyone else (and it is gear with no special protection from effects that target gear). Beyond that, if you want more features (such as integrated weapons), you have to pay for the upgrades and they are roughly equal to what other characters would pay for equivalent abilities in non-chair gear.
Still, I'm not seeing the rules you describe as being on a Pun-Pun level of game-breaking crazy.
Sigh. Think about it.
When people bring up 'Pun-Pun', 'diplomancer', or some other meme-worthy cringe build, your reaction should be like mine: groan, facepalm, throw things at person suggesting it, etc.
Instead, we're being subjected to a constant drivel of 'BUT MUH DIVERSITY' regarding the wheelchair. This thing should be mocked ceaselessly, and yet nobody wants to do so (outside present company). Why? Because 'ohnoez, that would be mean to disabled people' or some such bullshit.
THAT is why it's worse. It's broken bullshit and doesn't even have the good grace to admit it.
Also, the damn thing has no rules about tripping ground traps that I can find. I guess because tripwires and pressure plates make the author feel bad. I'm also still stunned that they tried to sell this thing as nominally indestructible (three critical hits in an encounter, seriously?!), knowing that even modern wheelchairs can get fucked up with normal wear and tear.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 30, 2021, 03:57:55 PM
Yeah. Tis why I've gone back to earlier editions of the game. Where a permanency spell was needed for magic items. Loss of Con etc. etc. That's not to say a demi-god or a disabled wizard couldn't have made one. We got the Apparatus of Kwalish.
See, the Apparatus makes for an interesting major magic item or minor artifact (it's a legendary item in 5E). It's RARE. You can't buy it from any fine merchant like you're going to Aurora's in the Realms.
So, to you it's worse because you can't grow the fuck up and isolate your gaming from the nonsense "culture war" that you believe is raging everywhere. Yawn...
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 30, 2021, 04:12:26 PM
If we is going "Magical Wheelchair" route- Tensers floating disk is still a level 1 spell FFS.
A magic item for a permanent one of those, is all you need. You can make a custom armchair to put on to yourself.
I was thinking more "Fall-protection harness plus TF Disc" but the floating around with dangling legs would be a bit creepy. (Not to mention, the harness is uncomfortable in the bits.)
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 30, 2021, 04:12:26 PM
If we is going "Magical Wheelchair" route- Tensers floating disk is still a level 1 spell FFS.
A magic item for a permanent one of those, is all you need. You can make a custom armchair to put on to yourself.
But is permanence a 1st lvl spell on 5e? Does it come without the drawbacks from the good old days?
I guess no and that's why the author wants to have the OP bullshit chair.
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 04:17:08 PM
So, to you it's worse because you can't grow the fuck up and isolate your gaming from the nonsense "culture war" that you believe is raging everywhere. Yawn...
I keep thinking that it must be sweet to live in Florida.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 30, 2021, 03:33:08 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 02:00:37 PM
Explain how the wheelchair is unbalanced. Not liking it is one thing, but saying it's mechanically unbalanced like the examples you gave sounds like the rantings of a total idiot.
I thought about just ignoring you, but you know, I think you deserve this.
Why exactly does a 200gp (uncommon equivalent) magic item (and don't fucking lie; this is a magic item) grant proficiency in tinker's tool, advantage on saves versus being knocked prone, is almost indestructible (assuming you even use those rules), can be driven with one hand (beacon stone) and suffers no issues from going up or down stairs (the arguments about handicapped-accessible dungeons don't really apply, to be honest) and ladders, three new attack options (which you are proficient in, and use the better of your Strength or Dexterity), counts as part of your body for the purposes of magical effects and polymorph, counts as a mount for purposes of using a lance or mounted combat, and can be upgraded to add additional effects (including allowing for telepathic control, turning it into a submersible, sprouting spider legs, or equipping a ram that lets you attack three targets at once)?
This is all from the goddamn PDF, mind you.
For not having any downsides, that's stupid good for 200gp. Half the price of a nonmagical Breastplate. You would be dumb not to equip the whole party with them.
Where's that meme of the SWAT team on Segway scooters?
If I was wheelchair-bound I would most certainly NOT to play a wheelchair-bound character.
The whole point of these sort of RPGs is to be something beyond what you really are. It could be a Lucas McCain-style character in a western, A Han Solo rogue in a space opera, or- in AD&D- a spell-slinging wizard, a mighty warrior like Conan or Dannus, maybe something odd like a pseudo-dragon scout...
It seems the politically-correct crowd misses the point.
What's more, who would need a wheelchair for any length of time in an AD&D world? There are spells that can grant wishes, regenerate lost limbs, restore sight, even resurrect the dead for crying out loud, so how can any adventurer with any experience and loot not be fully regenerated or cured?
I used to volunteer in a VA hospital for a time while my father was there. The idea of a wheelchair warrior in a dungeon with trap doors, pits, etc. is ludicrous. Imagine such a character trying to accompany Thorin & Company on their way through Mirkwood or climbing the Lonely Mountain. Good luck escaping a rampaging Smaug.
Incidentally, regarding an earlier post- funny how the left used to hate the corporations, but ever since the 1990's have been embracing them more and more as they become more "woke." Oh, certainly- no ulterior motives there.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 30, 2021, 04:12:26 PM
If we is going "Magical Wheelchair" route- Tensers floating disk is still a level 1 spell FFS.
A magic item for a permanent one of those, is all you need. You can make a custom armchair to put on to yourself.
See, Salvatore had those drow matron mothers riding on floating disks, and we've even used the spell to great effect. So sure, make the floating disk permanent.
Quote from: Shasarak on September 30, 2021, 04:23:42 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 04:17:08 PM
So, to you it's worse because you can't grow the fuck up and isolate your gaming from the nonsense "culture war" that you believe is raging everywhere. Yawn...
I keep thinking that it must be sweet to live in Florida.
There's always room for another tourist.
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on September 30, 2021, 04:33:51 PM
If I was wheelchair-bound I would most certainly NOT to play a wheelchair-bound character.
The whole point of these sort of RPGs is to be something beyond what you really are. It could be a Lucas McCain-style character in a western, A Han Solo rogue in a space opera, or- in AD&D- a spell-slinging wizard, a mighty warrior like Conan or Dannus, maybe something odd like a pseudo-dragon scout...
It seems the politically-correct crowd misses the point.
What's more, who would need a wheelchair for any length of time in an AD&D world? There are spells that can grant wishes, regenerate lost limbs, restore sight, even resurrect the dead for crying out loud, so how can any adventurer with any experience and loot not be fully regenerated or cured?
I used to volunteer in a VA hospital for a time while my father was there. The idea of a wheelchair warrior in a dungeon with trap doors, pits, etc. is ludicrous. Imagine such a character trying to accompany Thorin & Company on their way through Mirkwood or climbing the Lonely Mountain. Good luck escaping a rampaging Smaug.
Incidentally, regarding an earlier post- funny how the left used to hate the corporations, but ever since the 1990's have been embracing them more and more as they become more "woke." Oh, certainly- no ulterior motives there.
Hear, hear! There is a group that willfully or ignorantly fails to understand that role playing means pretending to be someone else. They fail to understand that diversity in the game need not align with diversity in real life. They fail to appreciate that, in fact, many settings require a different scope of diversity from real life for sake of verisimilitude. Out of laziness or malice, they try to shape the fantasy world to fit their modern way of thinking, when any actual role player knows that you must do the exact opposite and shape your modern way of thinking to fit the fantasy world.
If it's ignorance, I have no patience for them. If it's willful, then they are actively trying to destroy the hobby by chipping away its very foundation and they must be ridiculed and banished.
Or you can go tell this to John Wick to his face and record the whole thing.
Some role-playing is pretending to be an idealized version of your self. Lots of people imagine themselves as the protagonist in a movie or a book. In an RPG, you're definitely taking on the role of your character, and it is extremely rare for characters to have NOTHING in common with the player that portrays them.
If you're in a wheelchair and you're interested in playing a character that is ALSO in a wheelchair, but a bad-ass that slays dragons, I don't want to be the one to tell you that your fun pisses me off. The game has rules so you're not rolling up to the table as Superman, but I'll work with you to accommodate the character you want as best I can. Wheelchairs are easy compared to some of the things I've been asked to allow.
But are you a monster for not really wanting to allow those kinds of elements into your game?
And if that's the case - in what way are the creators of this content racists, X-phobes for not catering to me specifically?
Serious litmus test. Because on social media and even at public tables with strangers - that's exactly what is happening.
Edit: as you well know this is *not* about Combat Wheelchairs. It's about the infantile belief representation of such is somehow important. And in comes the lone outlier with such desires to claim their need to have such representation at the social expense of everyone else. It's the same dynamic as the Heckler's Veto... at minimum. Normally it's just people screeching you're a hateful monster. Which I may well be, but not for those reasons. Unlike the SJW LARP Cannibals, I'm descended from the real thing. I'm a civilized monster.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 30, 2021, 05:33:22 PM
Some role-playing is pretending to be an idealized version of your self. Lots of people imagine themselves as the protagonist in a movie or a book. In an RPG, you're definitely taking on the role of your character, and it is extremely rare for characters to have NOTHING in common with the player that portrays them.
If you're in a wheelchair and you're interested in playing a character that is ALSO in a wheelchair, but a bad-ass that slays dragons, I don't want to be the one to tell you that your fun pisses me off. The game has rules so you're not rolling up to the table as Superman, but I'll work with you to accommodate the character you want as best I can. Wheelchairs are easy compared to some of the things I've been asked to allow.
Lets see a show of hands me lads and lasses!
To how many of you has EVER happened this?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 30, 2021, 05:39:47 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 30, 2021, 05:33:22 PM
Some role-playing is pretending to be an idealized version of your self. Lots of people imagine themselves as the protagonist in a movie or a book. In an RPG, you're definitely taking on the role of your character, and it is extremely rare for characters to have NOTHING in common with the player that portrays them.
If you're in a wheelchair and you're interested in playing a character that is ALSO in a wheelchair, but a bad-ass that slays dragons, I don't want to be the one to tell you that your fun pisses me off. The game has rules so you're not rolling up to the table as Superman, but I'll work with you to accommodate the character you want as best I can. Wheelchairs are easy compared to some of the things I've been asked to allow.
Lets see a show of hands me lads and lasses!
To how many of you has EVER happened this?
It's happened to me once. I had a player - a Guamanian/Filipino mutant monster, I ran a fairly serious Vampire game, and he took the Quadriplegic Flaw, and he had a modified high-speed wheelchair and bolt-on reinforced sharpened pool-cue he'd actually try to charge into combat with (Difficulty 9).
I let him do it - and he was slaughtered in the first combat - but to his credit he did wound a neonate anarch before getting yanked out of his wheelchair and beat into torpor with it (the wheelchair) before waking up with that pool-que rammed up his ass and through his heart as the sun came up.
No one has asked me to play a wheelchair bound character since.
Honestly - I think it's a fine thing for certain kinds of games. Modernish one for sure. Especially things like horror and/or investigative games.
But pretending this idiocy works for dungeon and hexcrawling is stupid.
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 04:58:29 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on September 30, 2021, 04:23:42 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 04:17:08 PM
So, to you it's worse because you can't grow the fuck up and isolate your gaming from the nonsense "culture war" that you believe is raging everywhere. Yawn...
I keep thinking that it must be sweet to live in Florida.
There's always room for another tourist.
Who wants to be a Tourist when you could be Florida Man
Quote from: tenbones on September 30, 2021, 05:46:04 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 30, 2021, 05:39:47 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 30, 2021, 05:33:22 PM
Some role-playing is pretending to be an idealized version of your self. Lots of people imagine themselves as the protagonist in a movie or a book. In an RPG, you're definitely taking on the role of your character, and it is extremely rare for characters to have NOTHING in common with the player that portrays them.
If you're in a wheelchair and you're interested in playing a character that is ALSO in a wheelchair, but a bad-ass that slays dragons, I don't want to be the one to tell you that your fun pisses me off. The game has rules so you're not rolling up to the table as Superman, but I'll work with you to accommodate the character you want as best I can. Wheelchairs are easy compared to some of the things I've been asked to allow.
Lets see a show of hands me lads and lasses!
To how many of you has EVER happened this?
It's happened to me once. I had a player - a Guamanian/Filipino mutant monster, I ran a fairly serious Vampire game, and he took the Quadriplegic Flaw, and he had a modified high-speed wheelchair and bolt-on reinforced sharpened pool-cue he'd actually try to charge into combat with (Difficulty 9).
I let him do it - and he was slaughtered in the first combat - but to his credit he did wound a neonate anarch before getting yanked out of his wheelchair and beat into torpor with it (the wheelchair) before waking up with that pool-que rammed up his ass and through his heart as the sun came up.
No one has asked me to play a wheelchair bound character since.
I think his question was whether you'd had a player in a wheelchair that wanted to play a character in a wheelchair.
Closest I had was a legally blind (he could see a little) player that wanted to play a blind character. We gave it a try but dropped it after two sessions because describing scenes to him without visual descriptions was a real pain in the ass. Might work with some of those virtual tabletops though if the player could see well enough to use them, but I'm not doing it again at a FtF table.
Quote from: Shasarak on September 30, 2021, 05:50:04 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 04:58:29 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on September 30, 2021, 04:23:42 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 04:17:08 PM
So, to you it's worse because you can't grow the fuck up and isolate your gaming from the nonsense "culture war" that you believe is raging everywhere. Yawn...
I keep thinking that it must be sweet to live in Florida.
There's always room for another tourist.
Who wants to be a Tourist when you could be Florida Man
There's more to being Florida Man than just being a man in Florida, but I'm sure you could manage it.
Quote from: tenbones on September 30, 2021, 05:48:31 PM
Honestly - I think it's a fine thing for certain kinds of games. Modernish one for sure. Especially things like horror and/or investigative games.
But pretending this idiocy works for dungeon and hexcrawling is stupid.
Something we've been saying since day one. Wana be the guy with a tank instead of a wheelchair in Alien? No prob. But even him was limited when the space didn't allow him to pass wasn't him?
Think he could have done some spelunking?
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 05:52:41 PM
Quote from: tenbones on September 30, 2021, 05:46:04 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 30, 2021, 05:39:47 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 30, 2021, 05:33:22 PM
Some role-playing is pretending to be an idealized version of your self. Lots of people imagine themselves as the protagonist in a movie or a book. In an RPG, you're definitely taking on the role of your character, and it is extremely rare for characters to have NOTHING in common with the player that portrays them.
If you're in a wheelchair and you're interested in playing a character that is ALSO in a wheelchair, but a bad-ass that slays dragons, I don't want to be the one to tell you that your fun pisses me off. The game has rules so you're not rolling up to the table as Superman, but I'll work with you to accommodate the character you want as best I can. Wheelchairs are easy compared to some of the things I've been asked to allow.
Lets see a show of hands me lads and lasses!
To how many of you has EVER happened this?
It's happened to me once. I had a player - a Guamanian/Filipino mutant monster, I ran a fairly serious Vampire game, and he took the Quadriplegic Flaw, and he had a modified high-speed wheelchair and bolt-on reinforced sharpened pool-cue he'd actually try to charge into combat with (Difficulty 9).
I let him do it - and he was slaughtered in the first combat - but to his credit he did wound a neonate anarch before getting yanked out of his wheelchair and beat into torpor with it (the wheelchair) before waking up with that pool-que rammed up his ass and through his heart as the sun came up.
No one has asked me to play a wheelchair bound character since.
I think his question was whether you'd had a player in a wheelchair that wanted to play a character in a wheelchair.
Closest I had was a legally blind (he could see a little) player that wanted to play a blind character. We gave it a try but dropped it after two sessions because describing scenes to him without visual descriptions was a real pain in the ass. Might work with some of those virtual tabletops though if the player could see well enough to use them, but I'm not doing it again at a FtF table.
Yep, that was the question, thanks for the input, so we have one instance so far.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 30, 2021, 05:33:22 PM
Some role-playing is pretending to be an idealized version of your self. Lots of people imagine themselves as the protagonist in a movie or a book. In an RPG, you're definitely taking on the role of your character, and it is extremely rare for characters to have NOTHING in common with the player that portrays them.
If you're in a wheelchair and you're interested in playing a character that is ALSO in a wheelchair, but a bad-ass that slays dragons, I don't want to be the one to tell you that your fun pisses me off. The game has rules so you're not rolling up to the table as Superman, but I'll work with you to accommodate the character you want as best I can. Wheelchairs are easy compared to some of the things I've been asked to allow.
I would totally allow someone to start* as a disabled character. I would help them come up with ideas, too. A golem, a magical floating platform, a cool mechanical claw, a servant, etc. A combat wheelchair is a DULL and UNIMAGINATIVE transplant from the modern world. The game is about using your imagination and that is quite simply a failure of imagination. This applies to everything. If there's no coffee in my world and you love coffee and always have to have coffee and have a collection of coffee mugs with coffee sayings printed on them and you want your character to love coffee too, I will be the one to tell you that your coffee fun is not part of this world. The accommodation is pick a beverage appropriate to the world, just like picking a mode of transportation or assistive device that is appropriate to the world.
*a lot of PCs end up becoming disabled but that's a different thing.
Quote from: rytrasmi on September 30, 2021, 06:01:33 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 30, 2021, 05:33:22 PM
Some role-playing is pretending to be an idealized version of your self. Lots of people imagine themselves as the protagonist in a movie or a book. In an RPG, you're definitely taking on the role of your character, and it is extremely rare for characters to have NOTHING in common with the player that portrays them.
If you're in a wheelchair and you're interested in playing a character that is ALSO in a wheelchair, but a bad-ass that slays dragons, I don't want to be the one to tell you that your fun pisses me off. The game has rules so you're not rolling up to the table as Superman, but I'll work with you to accommodate the character you want as best I can. Wheelchairs are easy compared to some of the things I've been asked to allow.
I would totally allow someone to start* as a disabled character. I would help them come up with ideas, too. A golem, a magical floating platform, a cool mechanical claw, a servant, etc. A combat wheelchair is a DULL and UNIMAGINATIVE transplant from the modern world. The game is about using your imagination and that is quite simply a failure of imagination. This applies to everything. If there's no coffee in my world and you love coffee and always have to have coffee and have a collection of coffee mugs with coffee sayings printed on them and you want your character to love coffee too, I will be the one to tell you that your coffee fun is not part of this world. The accommodation is pick a beverage appropriate to the world, just like picking a mode of transportation or assistive device that is appropriate to the world.
*a lot of PCs end up becoming disabled but that's a different thing.
We've been this route too, we got called istophobes because Dragons.
It's not really about playing a dissabled character, it's about making you change your world to accomodate them... Because Dragons.
Your coffee example is on point but will fall on deaf ears, and no one is more deaf than the one that refuses to hear.
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 05:54:00 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on September 30, 2021, 05:50:04 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 04:58:29 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on September 30, 2021, 04:23:42 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 04:17:08 PM
So, to you it's worse because you can't grow the fuck up and isolate your gaming from the nonsense "culture war" that you believe is raging everywhere. Yawn...
I keep thinking that it must be sweet to live in Florida.
There's always room for another tourist.
Who wants to be a Tourist when you could be Florida Man
There's more to being Florida Man than just being a man in Florida, but I'm sure you could manage it.
Of course! I would learn from the master. Teach me your ways sensai.
Quote from: Shasarak on September 30, 2021, 06:30:22 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 05:54:00 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on September 30, 2021, 05:50:04 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 04:58:29 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on September 30, 2021, 04:23:42 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 04:17:08 PM
So, to you it's worse because you can't grow the fuck up and isolate your gaming from the nonsense "culture war" that you believe is raging everywhere. Yawn...
I keep thinking that it must be sweet to live in Florida.
There's always room for another tourist.
Who wants to be a Tourist when you could be Florida Man
There's more to being Florida Man than just being a man in Florida, but I'm sure you could manage it.
Of course! I would learn from the master. Teach me your ways sensai.
12 pack, jeans, body of water, alligator. The rest will work itself out.
Quote from: oggsmash on September 30, 2021, 06:36:24 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on September 30, 2021, 06:30:22 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 05:54:00 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on September 30, 2021, 05:50:04 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 04:58:29 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on September 30, 2021, 04:23:42 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 04:17:08 PM
So, to you it's worse because you can't grow the fuck up and isolate your gaming from the nonsense "culture war" that you believe is raging everywhere. Yawn...
I keep thinking that it must be sweet to live in Florida.
There's always room for another tourist.
Who wants to be a Tourist when you could be Florida Man
There's more to being Florida Man than just being a man in Florida, but I'm sure you could manage it.
Of course! I would learn from the master. Teach me your ways sensai.
12 pack, jeans, body of water, alligator. The rest will work itself out.
Jeans are not as likely as shorts. Alligator usually means that is a poseur trying too hard.
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 06:39:06 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on September 30, 2021, 06:36:24 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on September 30, 2021, 06:30:22 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 05:54:00 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on September 30, 2021, 05:50:04 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 04:58:29 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on September 30, 2021, 04:23:42 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 04:17:08 PM
So, to you it's worse because you can't grow the fuck up and isolate your gaming from the nonsense "culture war" that you believe is raging everywhere. Yawn...
I keep thinking that it must be sweet to live in Florida.
There's always room for another tourist.
Who wants to be a Tourist when you could be Florida Man
There's more to being Florida Man than just being a man in Florida, but I'm sure you could manage it.
Of course! I would learn from the master. Teach me your ways sensai.
12 pack, jeans, body of water, alligator. The rest will work itself out.
Jeans are not as likely as shorts. Alligator usually means that is a poseur trying too hard.
Ok, shorts and plus or minus Alligator, got it.
I think its working, fear of culture wars receding.
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 06:39:06 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on September 30, 2021, 06:36:24 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on September 30, 2021, 06:30:22 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 05:54:00 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on September 30, 2021, 05:50:04 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 04:58:29 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on September 30, 2021, 04:23:42 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 04:17:08 PM
So, to you it's worse because you can't grow the fuck up and isolate your gaming from the nonsense "culture war" that you believe is raging everywhere. Yawn...
I keep thinking that it must be sweet to live in Florida.
There's always room for another tourist.
Who wants to be a Tourist when you could be Florida Man
There's more to being Florida Man than just being a man in Florida, but I'm sure you could manage it.
Of course! I would learn from the master. Teach me your ways sensai.
12 pack, jeans, body of water, alligator. The rest will work itself out.
Jeans are not as likely as shorts. Alligator usually means that is a poseur trying too hard.
Yeah I forgot, it is the new yorkers and their tiny dogs that get snatched by gators.
Jorts, 12 pack, meth, shotgun, body of water the rest works itself out.
Though I do remember during the year and a half I lived in Florida, a large number of the local folks seemed to wear jeans a lot, alot more than I cared to. Of course I am talking about the dudes with the sweet mullets who were literally "Florida Men", and for all I know they could have evolved by now, or Orlando could have it's own special breed.
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 04:17:08 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 30, 2021, 04:06:41 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 03:57:22 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 30, 2021, 03:33:08 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 02:00:37 PM
Explain how the wheelchair is unbalanced. Not liking it is one thing, but saying it's mechanically unbalanced like the examples you gave sounds like the rantings of a total idiot.
I thought about just ignoring you, but you know, I think you deserve this.
Why exactly does a 200gp (uncommon equivalent) magic item (and don't fucking lie; this is a magic item) grant proficiency in tinker's tool, advantage on saves versus being knocked prone, is almost indestructible (assuming you even use those rules), can be driven with one hand (beacon stone) and suffers no issues from going up or down stairs (the arguments about handicapped-accessible dungeons don't really apply, to be honest) and ladders, three new attack options (which you are proficient in, and use the better of your Strength or Dexterity), counts as part of your body for the purposes of magical effects and polymorph, counts as a mount for purposes of using a lance or mounted combat, and can be upgraded to add additional effects (including allowing for telepathic control, turning it into a submersible, sprouting spider legs, or equipping a ram that lets you attack three targets at once)?
This is all from the goddamn PDF, mind you.
Those rules are pretty fucking silly (I'm taking your word for how they work). I had thought the chair was just a cosmetic effect (as much as having legs vs a snake body is really a cosmetic effect as far as most game mechanics are concerned). I certainly wouldn't use those rules if I played that game, and the game I do play that has a "mobiltiy chair" starts it off as just allowing you to move like everyone else (and it is gear with no special protection from effects that target gear). Beyond that, if you want more features (such as integrated weapons), you have to pay for the upgrades and they are roughly equal to what other characters would pay for equivalent abilities in non-chair gear.
Still, I'm not seeing the rules you describe as being on a Pun-Pun level of game-breaking crazy.
Sigh. Think about it.
When people bring up 'Pun-Pun', 'diplomancer', or some other meme-worthy cringe build, your reaction should be like mine: groan, facepalm, throw things at person suggesting it, etc.
Instead, we're being subjected to a constant drivel of 'BUT MUH DIVERSITY' regarding the wheelchair. This thing should be mocked ceaselessly, and yet nobody wants to do so (outside present company). Why? Because 'ohnoez, that would be mean to disabled people' or some such bullshit.
THAT is why it's worse. It's broken bullshit and doesn't even have the good grace to admit it.
Also, the damn thing has no rules about tripping ground traps that I can find. I guess because tripwires and pressure plates make the author feel bad. I'm also still stunned that they tried to sell this thing as nominally indestructible (three critical hits in an encounter, seriously?!), knowing that even modern wheelchairs can get fucked up with normal wear and tear.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 30, 2021, 03:57:55 PM
Yeah. Tis why I've gone back to earlier editions of the game. Where a permanency spell was needed for magic items. Loss of Con etc. etc. That's not to say a demi-god or a disabled wizard couldn't have made one. We got the Apparatus of Kwalish.
See, the Apparatus makes for an interesting major magic item or minor artifact (it's a legendary item in 5E). It's RARE. You can't buy it from any fine merchant like you're going to Aurora's in the Realms.
So, to you it's worse because you can't grow the fuck up and isolate your gaming from the nonsense "culture war" that you believe is raging everywhere. Yawn...
My mistake was treating you civilly in this discussion. I won't make it again.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 30, 2021, 07:22:33 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 04:17:08 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 30, 2021, 04:06:41 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 03:57:22 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 30, 2021, 03:33:08 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 02:00:37 PM
Explain how the wheelchair is unbalanced. Not liking it is one thing, but saying it's mechanically unbalanced like the examples you gave sounds like the rantings of a total idiot.
I thought about just ignoring you, but you know, I think you deserve this.
Why exactly does a 200gp (uncommon equivalent) magic item (and don't fucking lie; this is a magic item) grant proficiency in tinker's tool, advantage on saves versus being knocked prone, is almost indestructible (assuming you even use those rules), can be driven with one hand (beacon stone) and suffers no issues from going up or down stairs (the arguments about handicapped-accessible dungeons don't really apply, to be honest) and ladders, three new attack options (which you are proficient in, and use the better of your Strength or Dexterity), counts as part of your body for the purposes of magical effects and polymorph, counts as a mount for purposes of using a lance or mounted combat, and can be upgraded to add additional effects (including allowing for telepathic control, turning it into a submersible, sprouting spider legs, or equipping a ram that lets you attack three targets at once)?
This is all from the goddamn PDF, mind you.
Those rules are pretty fucking silly (I'm taking your word for how they work). I had thought the chair was just a cosmetic effect (as much as having legs vs a snake body is really a cosmetic effect as far as most game mechanics are concerned). I certainly wouldn't use those rules if I played that game, and the game I do play that has a "mobiltiy chair" starts it off as just allowing you to move like everyone else (and it is gear with no special protection from effects that target gear). Beyond that, if you want more features (such as integrated weapons), you have to pay for the upgrades and they are roughly equal to what other characters would pay for equivalent abilities in non-chair gear.
Still, I'm not seeing the rules you describe as being on a Pun-Pun level of game-breaking crazy.
Sigh. Think about it.
When people bring up 'Pun-Pun', 'diplomancer', or some other meme-worthy cringe build, your reaction should be like mine: groan, facepalm, throw things at person suggesting it, etc.
Instead, we're being subjected to a constant drivel of 'BUT MUH DIVERSITY' regarding the wheelchair. This thing should be mocked ceaselessly, and yet nobody wants to do so (outside present company). Why? Because 'ohnoez, that would be mean to disabled people' or some such bullshit.
THAT is why it's worse. It's broken bullshit and doesn't even have the good grace to admit it.
Also, the damn thing has no rules about tripping ground traps that I can find. I guess because tripwires and pressure plates make the author feel bad. I'm also still stunned that they tried to sell this thing as nominally indestructible (three critical hits in an encounter, seriously?!), knowing that even modern wheelchairs can get fucked up with normal wear and tear.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 30, 2021, 03:57:55 PM
Yeah. Tis why I've gone back to earlier editions of the game. Where a permanency spell was needed for magic items. Loss of Con etc. etc. That's not to say a demi-god or a disabled wizard couldn't have made one. We got the Apparatus of Kwalish.
See, the Apparatus makes for an interesting major magic item or minor artifact (it's a legendary item in 5E). It's RARE. You can't buy it from any fine merchant like you're going to Aurora's in the Realms.
So, to you it's worse because you can't grow the fuck up and isolate your gaming from the nonsense "culture war" that you believe is raging everywhere. Yawn...
My mistake was treating you civilly in this discussion. I won't make it again.
I actually feel bad about snapping at you on this one, so I apologize for that. I still think the culture war is bullshit, but you didn't deserve my response.
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 05:54:00 PMThere's more to being Florida Man than just being a man in Florida, but I'm sure you could manage it.
Just practice this phrase: "Hold my beer and watch this."
Quote from: ThatChrisGuy on September 30, 2021, 10:23:12 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 05:54:00 PMThere's more to being Florida Man than just being a man in Florida, but I'm sure you could manage it.
Just practice this phrase: "Hold my beer and watch this."
But what if your brother spills your beer? (D&D Florida Edition skit. 2:21 if you want to jump to that specific part.) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW8kYzDNw1I&list=PL8QCG5gznVmFosTjBwxLBi8Sn6fyWIXK3)
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 04:58:29 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on September 30, 2021, 04:23:42 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 04:17:08 PM
So, to you it's worse because you can't grow the fuck up and isolate your gaming from the nonsense "culture war" that you believe is raging everywhere. Yawn...
I keep thinking that it must be sweet to live in Florida.
There's always room for another tourist.
I'm too pale to be seen as anything but a local. I also refuse to wear shorts for fear of blinding passing aircraft.
So, I'm trying to shine a light on some of the gross and toxic practices on various social media groups, like the Exalted Funeral and OSR discord. Twitter and reddit might be too far gone to call out, but I'm still going to try and put an end to harassment and cancellation where I find it.
My blog post has an eloquent rant + screenshots. Part 2 of my expose on the toxic Exalted Funeral discord (and other places): https://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2021/10/the-best-disinfectant.html
Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 01, 2021, 11:58:24 AM
So, I'm trying to shine a light on some of the gross and toxic practices on various social media groups, like the Exalted Funeral and OSR discord. Twitter and reddit might be too far gone to call out, but I'm still going to try and put an end to harassment and cancellation where I find it.
My blog post has an eloquent rant + screenshots. Part 2 of my expose on the toxic Exalted Funeral discord (and other places): https://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2021/10/the-best-disinfectant.html
OK, I see the forum bans which I understand is the cancellation.
Can you clarify what events you're calling harassment? That part is not clear to me from the post.
Quote from: ThatChrisGuy on September 30, 2021, 10:23:12 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 05:54:00 PMThere's more to being Florida Man than just being a man in Florida, but I'm sure you could manage it.
Just practice this phrase: "Hold my beer and watch this."
Too general, that would be appropriate for "Southern Man".
Quote from: jhkim on October 01, 2021, 02:13:14 PM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 01, 2021, 11:58:24 AM
So, I'm trying to shine a light on some of the gross and toxic practices on various social media groups, like the Exalted Funeral and OSR discord. Twitter and reddit might be too far gone to call out, but I'm still going to try and put an end to harassment and cancellation where I find it.
My blog post has an eloquent rant + screenshots. Part 2 of my expose on the toxic Exalted Funeral discord (and other places): https://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2021/10/the-best-disinfectant.html
OK, I see the forum bans which I understand is the cancellation.
Can you clarify what events you're calling harassment? That part is not clear to me from the post.
I'm talking about a range of behavior from uncalled for verbal abuse to banning people for stupid reasons to slander (calling people nazis), just all of it. We're all trying to game and they're playing politics and getting butthurt over someone showing off their new RPG books.
Here is some positive thoughts about this topic that I want to share with you.
The Woke Future Of The Hobby - What Comes Easy Won't Last Long
https://youtu.be/-hWrHvHWZGA
Quote from: oggsmash on October 01, 2021, 02:17:19 PM
Quote from: ThatChrisGuy on September 30, 2021, 10:23:12 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 05:54:00 PMThere's more to being Florida Man than just being a man in Florida, but I'm sure you could manage it.
Just practice this phrase: "Hold my beer and watch this."
Too general, that would be appropriate for "Southern Man".
Can confirm for the Southern "Southern Man"
Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 01, 2021, 07:07:13 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 01, 2021, 02:13:14 PM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 01, 2021, 11:58:24 AM
My blog post has an eloquent rant + screenshots. Part 2 of my expose on the toxic Exalted Funeral discord (and other places): https://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2021/10/the-best-disinfectant.html
OK, I see the forum bans which I understand is the cancellation.
Can you clarify what events you're calling harassment? That part is not clear to me from the post.
I'm talking about a range of behavior from uncalled for verbal abuse to banning people for stupid reasons to slander (calling people nazis), just all of it. We're all trying to game and they're playing politics and getting butthurt over someone showing off their new RPG books.
Venger - I understand you can get that impression from creating your RPGs and looking at discussion in left-leaning RPG forums. On the other hand, around here, what I see are constant complaints over newly-published left-leaning RPG products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow, or just free game expansions like Sara Thompson's Combat Wheelchair.
I think in the current political climate, gamers of all politics are much more inclined to bitch about the other side than to talk constructively about their own games.
I don't condone calling someone a nazi who isn't one, but still, I'd call that more name-calling than harassment.
Quote from: jhkim on October 01, 2021, 10:09:12 PM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 01, 2021, 07:07:13 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 01, 2021, 02:13:14 PM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 01, 2021, 11:58:24 AM
My blog post has an eloquent rant + screenshots. Part 2 of my expose on the toxic Exalted Funeral discord (and other places): https://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2021/10/the-best-disinfectant.html
OK, I see the forum bans which I understand is the cancellation.
Can you clarify what events you're calling harassment? That part is not clear to me from the post.
I'm talking about a range of behavior from uncalled for verbal abuse to banning people for stupid reasons to slander (calling people nazis), just all of it. We're all trying to game and they're playing politics and getting butthurt over someone showing off their new RPG books.
Venger - I understand you can get that impression from creating your RPGs and looking at discussion in left-leaning RPG forums. On the other hand, around here, what I see are constant complaints over newly-published left-leaning RPG products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow, or just free game expansions like Sara Thompson's Combat Wheelchair.
I think in the current political climate, gamers of all politics are much more inclined to bitch about the other side than to talk constructively about their own games.
I don't condone calling someone a nazi who isn't one, but still, I'd call that more name-calling than harassment.
Yeah, because criticizing something is totally the same as what Venger is describing no?
Come on jhkim, I'm sure you can't believe that. I hope you don't because I think you're smarter than that. But maybe you think we're so stupid as to not see the false equivalence?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 01, 2021, 11:19:46 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 01, 2021, 10:09:12 PM
Venger - I understand you can get that impression from creating your RPGs and looking at discussion in left-leaning RPG forums. On the other hand, around here, what I see are constant complaints over newly-published left-leaning RPG products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow, or just free game expansions like Sara Thompson's Combat Wheelchair.
I think in the current political climate, gamers of all politics are much more inclined to bitch about the other side than to talk constructively about their own games.
I don't condone calling someone a nazi who isn't one, but still, I'd call that more name-calling than harassment.
Yeah, because criticizing something is totally the same as what Venger is describing no?
Come on jhkim, I'm sure you can't believe that. I hope you don't because I think you're smarter than that. But maybe you think we're so stupid as to not see the false equivalence?
What Venger described in his post was getting banned from a private forum. I'm not saying getting banned is the same thing as criticism - but it's also not the same as harassment.
What I was specifically responding to was Venger saying "
We're all trying to game and they're playing politics". And I think that's wrong, at least where "we" is posters on theRPGsite. Here on these forums, we do an awful lot of political discussion, not just trying to game. Just look at the post volume on political debates versus non-political gaming posts.
Quote from: jhkim on October 02, 2021, 01:09:16 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 01, 2021, 11:19:46 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 01, 2021, 10:09:12 PM
Venger - I understand you can get that impression from creating your RPGs and looking at discussion in left-leaning RPG forums. On the other hand, around here, what I see are constant complaints over newly-published left-leaning RPG products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow, or just free game expansions like Sara Thompson's Combat Wheelchair.
I think in the current political climate, gamers of all politics are much more inclined to bitch about the other side than to talk constructively about their own games.
I don't condone calling someone a nazi who isn't one, but still, I'd call that more name-calling than harassment.
Yeah, because criticizing something is totally the same as what Venger is describing no?
Come on jhkim, I'm sure you can't believe that. I hope you don't because I think you're smarter than that. But maybe you think we're so stupid as to not see the false equivalence?
What Venger described in his post was getting banned from a private forum. I'm not saying getting banned is the same thing as criticism - but it's also not the same as harassment.
What I was specifically responding to was Venger saying "We're all trying to game and they're playing politics". And I think that's wrong, at least where "we" is posters on theRPGsite. Here on these forums, we do an awful lot of political discussion, not just trying to game. Just look at the post volume on political debates versus non-political gaming posts.
AND? When has any SJW been banned just for being one? Even self admited ones. Again, criticizing something isn't the same. And you're doubling down on the false equivalence dude.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 02, 2021, 01:23:13 AM
AND? When has any SJW been banned just for being one? Even self admited ones. Again, criticizing something isn't the same. And you're doubling down on the false equivalence dude.
Let me try again to express what I'm saying. I'm saying that all four of these are different.
(a) talking about one's own games and games one wants to play
(b) bitching about games of the opposing politics
(c) forum bans
(d) harassment
Venger claimed that his side did only (a). I claim that both sides do both (a) and (b). I'll buy that left-leaning forums do (c) much more. However, (c) is very different than (d).
I don't have an opinion on what the balance is on (d). Venger only posted examples of (c).
Quote from: Shasarak on October 01, 2021, 07:20:28 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on October 01, 2021, 02:17:19 PM
Quote from: ThatChrisGuy on September 30, 2021, 10:23:12 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 30, 2021, 05:54:00 PMThere's more to being Florida Man than just being a man in Florida, but I'm sure you could manage it.
Just practice this phrase: "Hold my beer and watch this."
Too general, that would be appropriate for "Southern Man".
Can confirm for the Southern "Southern Man"
"Hold my sparkling hard cider coffee punch and my whiteclaw that I haven't opened yet, and don't spit your dip into my cider..."
Quote from: jhkim on October 02, 2021, 02:25:27 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 02, 2021, 01:23:13 AM
AND? When has any SJW been banned just for being one? Even self admited ones. Again, criticizing something isn't the same. And you're doubling down on the false equivalence dude.
Let me try again to express what I'm saying. I'm saying that all four of these are different.
(a) talking about one's own games and games one wants to play
(b) bitching about games of the opposing politics
(c) forum bans
(d) harassment
Venger claimed that his side did only (a). I claim that both sides do both (a) and (b). I'll buy that left-leaning forums do (c) much more. However, (c) is very different than (d).
I don't have an opinion on what the balance is on (d). Venger only posted examples of (c).
I wasn't trying to say that interactions over on discord during a 24 or 48 hour period included the entire range of shitty behavior. All I was saying is that bad stuff happens on RPG focused social media, and I'm determined to call out the stuff that usually gets brushed under the rug, such as calling non-leftoids nazis and banning them for enjoying "problematic" creators. But if there's other forms of shitty behavior also, then I will condemn that, as well, and would like to know about it.
If the left wasn't pushing this culture war, the moderates' discussion of politics would decrees by at least 50%. I was happy being in the middle, a centrist, before all this woke garbage forced me further to the right. I didn't want to be here, but I am because fighting for freedom is the most important thing.
Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 02, 2021, 08:29:20 AM
Quote from: jhkim on October 02, 2021, 02:25:27 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 02, 2021, 01:23:13 AM
AND? When has any SJW been banned just for being one? Even self admited ones. Again, criticizing something isn't the same. And you're doubling down on the false equivalence dude.
Let me try again to express what I'm saying. I'm saying that all four of these are different.
(a) talking about one's own games and games one wants to play
(b) bitching about games of the opposing politics
(c) forum bans
(d) harassment
Venger claimed that his side did only (a). I claim that both sides do both (a) and (b). I'll buy that left-leaning forums do (c) much more. However, (c) is very different than (d).
I don't have an opinion on what the balance is on (d). Venger only posted examples of (c).
I wasn't trying to say that interactions over on discord during a 24 or 48 hour period included the entire range of shitty behavior. All I was saying is that bad stuff happens on RPG focused social media, and I'm determined to call out the stuff that usually gets brushed under the rug, such as calling non-leftoids nazis and banning them for enjoying "problematic" creators. But if there's other forms of shitty behavior also, then I will condemn that, as well, and would like to know about it.
If the left wasn't pushing this culture war, the moderates' discussion of politics would decrees by at least 50%. I was happy being in the middle, a centrist, before all this woke garbage forced me further to the right. I didn't want to be here, but I am because fighting for freedom is the most important thing.
And here I thought playing games and having fun was the most important part of gaming...
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 10:51:11 AM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 02, 2021, 08:29:20 AM
Quote from: jhkim on October 02, 2021, 02:25:27 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 02, 2021, 01:23:13 AM
AND? When has any SJW been banned just for being one? Even self admited ones. Again, criticizing something isn't the same. And you're doubling down on the false equivalence dude.
Let me try again to express what I'm saying. I'm saying that all four of these are different.
(a) talking about one's own games and games one wants to play
(b) bitching about games of the opposing politics
(c) forum bans
(d) harassment
Venger claimed that his side did only (a). I claim that both sides do both (a) and (b). I'll buy that left-leaning forums do (c) much more. However, (c) is very different than (d).
I don't have an opinion on what the balance is on (d). Venger only posted examples of (c).
I wasn't trying to say that interactions over on discord during a 24 or 48 hour period included the entire range of shitty behavior. All I was saying is that bad stuff happens on RPG focused social media, and I'm determined to call out the stuff that usually gets brushed under the rug, such as calling non-leftoids nazis and banning them for enjoying "problematic" creators. But if there's other forms of shitty behavior also, then I will condemn that, as well, and would like to know about it.
If the left wasn't pushing this culture war, the moderates' discussion of politics would decrees by at least 50%. I was happy being in the middle, a centrist, before all this woke garbage forced me further to the right. I didn't want to be here, but I am because fighting for freedom is the most important thing.
And here I thought playing games and having fun was the most important part of gaming...
You'd be forgiven for thinking so, but freedom is even more important than elf-games. I know, weird, right...? ;)
Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 02, 2021, 11:16:38 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 10:51:11 AM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 02, 2021, 08:29:20 AM
Quote from: jhkim on October 02, 2021, 02:25:27 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 02, 2021, 01:23:13 AM
AND? When has any SJW been banned just for being one? Even self admited ones. Again, criticizing something isn't the same. And you're doubling down on the false equivalence dude.
Let me try again to express what I'm saying. I'm saying that all four of these are different.
(a) talking about one's own games and games one wants to play
(b) bitching about games of the opposing politics
(c) forum bans
(d) harassment
Venger claimed that his side did only (a). I claim that both sides do both (a) and (b). I'll buy that left-leaning forums do (c) much more. However, (c) is very different than (d).
I don't have an opinion on what the balance is on (d). Venger only posted examples of (c).
I wasn't trying to say that interactions over on discord during a 24 or 48 hour period included the entire range of shitty behavior. All I was saying is that bad stuff happens on RPG focused social media, and I'm determined to call out the stuff that usually gets brushed under the rug, such as calling non-leftoids nazis and banning them for enjoying "problematic" creators. But if there's other forms of shitty behavior also, then I will condemn that, as well, and would like to know about it.
If the left wasn't pushing this culture war, the moderates' discussion of politics would decrees by at least 50%. I was happy being in the middle, a centrist, before all this woke garbage forced me further to the right. I didn't want to be here, but I am because fighting for freedom is the most important thing.
And here I thought playing games and having fun was the most important part of gaming...
You'd be forgiven for thinking so, but freedom is even more important than elf-games. I know, weird, right...? ;)
Your mistake is thinking that gaming is where to fight that battle. It's quite possible to separate the two, though in the case of those playing in the "culture war" there's obviously more need for imagination and suspension of disbelief than for those wanting to hunt dragons or fly FTL spacecraft.
Throughout all of this, I just wanted to play my fucking games. That's it. For all the issues the hobby had pre 2012 you could always find a game, always disconnect, and have fun. None of this "everything is political" bollocks. My barbarian with 8 Int and 6 Wis is not thinking of the inherent antiestablishmentarianism in most post modern scholars. He just wants to hit the fucking goblin on the head.
I know the really disingenuous thing amongst SJWs when people say "keep your politics out of games" is to point out politics have always had a place in games. I've played games and run games myself with politics within the context of it's setting. Lots of intrigue and interesting nuance. But that doesn't necessarily reflect modern in the moment views on politics. Certainly it can get one to think but it isn't trying to convince one of the virtue of one ideology over the other. And especially not real life ideologies that have no place in a fantasy setting. We are saying keep YOUR politics out of the game. As in, your own personal biases that you can't keep in check to the point half your book instead of talking about rules or lore goes into why leftism is heckin valid and right wingers are all Satan and can't be allowed into the game. Or making fucking combat wheelchairs. That's pathetic and only serves to aggrandize the author instead of actual disabled people who don't want to be reminded that they're cripples. In fact they want to escape into the fantasy of a cool world. Not be reminded how shit our current one is.
That's the crux of the matter. No one is going to initiate real social change in a god damn Tabletop game. You are not MLK because you made a gay muslim anarch vampire in VtM. Take your politics and remove them from the table. No one is convincing you that your politics are wrong or you aren't allowed to contribute to or even participate in the hobby except SJWs. Be whoever you want to be but respect the table and the people sitting next to you. But SJWs are incapable of doing that. Or seeing their behavior as wrong. They are the problem. And the problem is actually quite easy to fix.
Shut. Up.
Quote from: King Tyranno on October 02, 2021, 11:22:09 AMI know the really disingenuous thing amongst SJWs when people say "keep your politics out of games" is to point out politics have always had a place in games.
The answer to that point is: Yes, everything is political, the question is if its meaningfully political.
There is always micro quantities of arsenic in the air. If I complain that your pumping more of it through the ventilation, and you reply 'Well there has always been arsenic in the air', thats just playing retarded word games.
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 11:20:04 AM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 02, 2021, 11:16:38 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 10:51:11 AM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 02, 2021, 08:29:20 AM
Quote from: jhkim on October 02, 2021, 02:25:27 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 02, 2021, 01:23:13 AM
AND? When has any SJW been banned just for being one? Even self admited ones. Again, criticizing something isn't the same. And you're doubling down on the false equivalence dude.
Let me try again to express what I'm saying. I'm saying that all four of these are different.
(a) talking about one's own games and games one wants to play
(b) bitching about games of the opposing politics
(c) forum bans
(d) harassment
Venger claimed that his side did only (a). I claim that both sides do both (a) and (b). I'll buy that left-leaning forums do (c) much more. However, (c) is very different than (d).
I don't have an opinion on what the balance is on (d). Venger only posted examples of (c).
I wasn't trying to say that interactions over on discord during a 24 or 48 hour period included the entire range of shitty behavior. All I was saying is that bad stuff happens on RPG focused social media, and I'm determined to call out the stuff that usually gets brushed under the rug, such as calling non-leftoids nazis and banning them for enjoying "problematic" creators. But if there's other forms of shitty behavior also, then I will condemn that, as well, and would like to know about it.
If the left wasn't pushing this culture war, the moderates' discussion of politics would decrees by at least 50%. I was happy being in the middle, a centrist, before all this woke garbage forced me further to the right. I didn't want to be here, but I am because fighting for freedom is the most important thing.
And here I thought playing games and having fun was the most important part of gaming...
You'd be forgiven for thinking so, but freedom is even more important than elf-games. I know, weird, right...? ;)
Your mistake is thinking that gaming is where to fight that battle. It's quite possible to separate the two, though in the case of those playing in the "culture war" there's obviously more need for imagination and suspension of disbelief than for those wanting to hunt dragons or fly FTL spacecraft.
Because ignoring the totalitarian, puritanical left has worked great so far right?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 02, 2021, 11:58:56 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 11:20:04 AM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 02, 2021, 11:16:38 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 10:51:11 AM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 02, 2021, 08:29:20 AM
Quote from: jhkim on October 02, 2021, 02:25:27 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 02, 2021, 01:23:13 AM
AND? When has any SJW been banned just for being one? Even self admited ones. Again, criticizing something isn't the same. And you're doubling down on the false equivalence dude.
Let me try again to express what I'm saying. I'm saying that all four of these are different.
(a) talking about one's own games and games one wants to play
(b) bitching about games of the opposing politics
(c) forum bans
(d) harassment
Venger claimed that his side did only (a). I claim that both sides do both (a) and (b). I'll buy that left-leaning forums do (c) much more. However, (c) is very different than (d).
I don't have an opinion on what the balance is on (d). Venger only posted examples of (c).
I wasn't trying to say that interactions over on discord during a 24 or 48 hour period included the entire range of shitty behavior. All I was saying is that bad stuff happens on RPG focused social media, and I'm determined to call out the stuff that usually gets brushed under the rug, such as calling non-leftoids nazis and banning them for enjoying "problematic" creators. But if there's other forms of shitty behavior also, then I will condemn that, as well, and would like to know about it.
If the left wasn't pushing this culture war, the moderates' discussion of politics would decrees by at least 50%. I was happy being in the middle, a centrist, before all this woke garbage forced me further to the right. I didn't want to be here, but I am because fighting for freedom is the most important thing.
And here I thought playing games and having fun was the most important part of gaming...
You'd be forgiven for thinking so, but freedom is even more important than elf-games. I know, weird, right...? ;)
Your mistake is thinking that gaming is where to fight that battle. It's quite possible to separate the two, though in the case of those playing in the "culture war" there's obviously more need for imagination and suspension of disbelief than for those wanting to hunt dragons or fly FTL spacecraft.
Because ignoring the totalitarian, puritanical left has worked great so far right?
I'm still gaming just fine.
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 12:06:39 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 02, 2021, 11:58:56 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 11:20:04 AM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 02, 2021, 11:16:38 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 10:51:11 AM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 02, 2021, 08:29:20 AM
Quote from: jhkim on October 02, 2021, 02:25:27 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 02, 2021, 01:23:13 AM
AND? When has any SJW been banned just for being one? Even self admited ones. Again, criticizing something isn't the same. And you're doubling down on the false equivalence dude.
Let me try again to express what I'm saying. I'm saying that all four of these are different.
(a) talking about one's own games and games one wants to play
(b) bitching about games of the opposing politics
(c) forum bans
(d) harassment
Venger claimed that his side did only (a). I claim that both sides do both (a) and (b). I'll buy that left-leaning forums do (c) much more. However, (c) is very different than (d).
I don't have an opinion on what the balance is on (d). Venger only posted examples of (c).
I wasn't trying to say that interactions over on discord during a 24 or 48 hour period included the entire range of shitty behavior. All I was saying is that bad stuff happens on RPG focused social media, and I'm determined to call out the stuff that usually gets brushed under the rug, such as calling non-leftoids nazis and banning them for enjoying "problematic" creators. But if there's other forms of shitty behavior also, then I will condemn that, as well, and would like to know about it.
If the left wasn't pushing this culture war, the moderates' discussion of politics would decrees by at least 50%. I was happy being in the middle, a centrist, before all this woke garbage forced me further to the right. I didn't want to be here, but I am because fighting for freedom is the most important thing.
And here I thought playing games and having fun was the most important part of gaming...
You'd be forgiven for thinking so, but freedom is even more important than elf-games. I know, weird, right...? ;)
Your mistake is thinking that gaming is where to fight that battle. It's quite possible to separate the two, though in the case of those playing in the "culture war" there's obviously more need for imagination and suspension of disbelief than for those wanting to hunt dragons or fly FTL spacecraft.
Because ignoring the totalitarian, puritanical left has worked great so far right?
I'm still gaming just fine.
And you're totally not a leftist...
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 12:06:39 PM
I'm still gaming just fine.
To be ideologically consistent on my end: If thats the case for you, you are a representative of a viewpoint. You do not get dismissed because you do not fit my narrative.
On my end, I believe that ideology has infiltrated lots of things I like to the point its begun to really compromise their quality.
EN world is making Advanced D&D 5e. I don't like 5e, but an advanced version may change that around for me. And regardless I like learning new mechanics.
Except now it says 'Made for and by a diverse audience'. What the fuck does that mean? Why should that even matter for the quality of the product? Why is that even there?
And now Im concerned that political agenda and diversity will take priority over experience and merit.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 02, 2021, 12:18:23 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 12:06:39 PM
I'm still gaming just fine.
To be ideologically consistent on my end: If thats the case for you, you are a representative of a viewpoint. You do not get dismissed because you do not fit my narrative.
On my end, I believe that ideology has infiltrated lots of things I like to the point its begun to really compromise their quality.
EN world is making Advanced D&D 5e. I don't like 5e, but an advanced version may change that around for me. And regardless I like learning new mechanics.
Except now it says 'Made for and by a diverse audience'. What the fuck does that mean? Why should that even matter for the quality of the product? Why is that even there?
And now Im concerned that political agenda and diversity will take priority over experience and merit.
Rather than worry, wait for the product and give it a look. If you like it, buy it, if you don't then don't. At that point, whatever they "meant" by their statement is meaningless compared to what you will/won't do with the product in your gaming time.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 02, 2021, 12:15:24 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 12:06:39 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 02, 2021, 11:58:56 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 11:20:04 AM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 02, 2021, 11:16:38 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 10:51:11 AM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 02, 2021, 08:29:20 AM
Quote from: jhkim on October 02, 2021, 02:25:27 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 02, 2021, 01:23:13 AM
AND? When has any SJW been banned just for being one? Even self admited ones. Again, criticizing something isn't the same. And you're doubling down on the false equivalence dude.
Let me try again to express what I'm saying. I'm saying that all four of these are different.
(a) talking about one's own games and games one wants to play
(b) bitching about games of the opposing politics
(c) forum bans
(d) harassment
Venger claimed that his side did only (a). I claim that both sides do both (a) and (b). I'll buy that left-leaning forums do (c) much more. However, (c) is very different than (d).
I don't have an opinion on what the balance is on (d). Venger only posted examples of (c).
I wasn't trying to say that interactions over on discord during a 24 or 48 hour period included the entire range of shitty behavior. All I was saying is that bad stuff happens on RPG focused social media, and I'm determined to call out the stuff that usually gets brushed under the rug, such as calling non-leftoids nazis and banning them for enjoying "problematic" creators. But if there's other forms of shitty behavior also, then I will condemn that, as well, and would like to know about it.
If the left wasn't pushing this culture war, the moderates' discussion of politics would decrees by at least 50%. I was happy being in the middle, a centrist, before all this woke garbage forced me further to the right. I didn't want to be here, but I am because fighting for freedom is the most important thing.
And here I thought playing games and having fun was the most important part of gaming...
You'd be forgiven for thinking so, but freedom is even more important than elf-games. I know, weird, right...? ;)
Your mistake is thinking that gaming is where to fight that battle. It's quite possible to separate the two, though in the case of those playing in the "culture war" there's obviously more need for imagination and suspension of disbelief than for those wanting to hunt dragons or fly FTL spacecraft.
Because ignoring the totalitarian, puritanical left has worked great so far right?
I'm still gaming just fine.
And you're totally not a leftist...
Correct, I'm totally not a leftist.
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 12:41:37 PMRather than worry, wait for the product and give it a look.
What if this sort of event has happened multiple times before? And has led to the product being made worse each time? And yet it still spreads to more media types, entertainment mediums, conventions and professions that I like?
At which point am I allowed to be concerned?
If I knew that a writers guild was all doodoo. And it suddenly took over writing for a series of pulps that I liked. Am I allowed to be concerned?
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 02, 2021, 01:05:20 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 12:41:37 PMRather than worry, wait for the product and give it a look.
What if this sort of event has happened multiple times before? And has led to the product being made worse each time? And yet it still spreads to more media types, entertainment mediums, conventions and professions that I like?
At which point am I allowed to be concerned?
If I knew that a writers guild was all doodoo. And it suddenly took over writing for a series of pulps that I liked. Am I allowed to be concerned?
You're the consumer. Buy or don't buy, but entertainment is hardly worth getting upset over. Find something that you like, or perhaps create something you like if you're on that side of it.
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 02:49:41 PMBut entertainment is hardly worth getting upset over.
I mean there are degrees to everything. Kicking and screaming may be an overreaction, but the increasing destruction of everything I like may have me voicing SOME discontent.
Why do I have to go on the defensive? Why do I have to retreat from places I felt welcomed before?
Are you seriously telling me it has to reach life-threatening levels until its reasonable for me to voice discontent and opposition to the ideas being laid out?
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 02, 2021, 03:02:25 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 02:49:41 PMBut entertainment is hardly worth getting upset over.
I mean there are degrees to everything. Kicking and screaming may be an overreaction, but the increasing destruction of everything I like may have me voicing SOME discontent.
Why do I have to go on the defensive? Why do I have to retreat from places I felt welcomed before?
Are you seriously telling me it has to reach life-threatening levels until its reasonable for me to voice discontent and opposition to the ideas being laid out?
I'm saying it's stupid to declare a "war" over it. Are you going to "war" over it against perceived "enemies" or are you just expressing your dissenting opinion. The former is idiotic, the latter is fine.
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 03:05:44 PMI'm saying it's stupid to declare a "war" over it. Are you going to "war" over it against perceived "rnemies" or are you just expressing your opinion. The former is idiotic, the latter is fine.
I agree declaring "War" is stupid, but I find forming a coalition of voices to be heard to voice concerns isn't (considering the people that silence and destroy the stuff I like do it all the time).
And all enemies are ultimately subjective and only percieved if you wanna play the semantics game.
Ya'll know that we saw this coming a while ago.....
https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/gay-lesbian-bisexual-transgender-gender-identity-etc-in-5e/
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 11:20:04 AM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 02, 2021, 11:16:38 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 10:51:11 AM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 02, 2021, 08:29:20 AM
Quote from: jhkim on October 02, 2021, 02:25:27 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 02, 2021, 01:23:13 AM
AND? When has any SJW been banned just for being one? Even self admited ones. Again, criticizing something isn't the same. And you're doubling down on the false equivalence dude.
Let me try again to express what I'm saying. I'm saying that all four of these are different.
(a) talking about one's own games and games one wants to play
(b) bitching about games of the opposing politics
(c) forum bans
(d) harassment
Venger claimed that his side did only (a). I claim that both sides do both (a) and (b). I'll buy that left-leaning forums do (c) much more. However, (c) is very different than (d).
I don't have an opinion on what the balance is on (d). Venger only posted examples of (c).
I wasn't trying to say that interactions over on discord during a 24 or 48 hour period included the entire range of shitty behavior. All I was saying is that bad stuff happens on RPG focused social media, and I'm determined to call out the stuff that usually gets brushed under the rug, such as calling non-leftoids nazis and banning them for enjoying "problematic" creators. But if there's other forms of shitty behavior also, then I will condemn that, as well, and would like to know about it.
If the left wasn't pushing this culture war, the moderates' discussion of politics would decrees by at least 50%. I was happy being in the middle, a centrist, before all this woke garbage forced me further to the right. I didn't want to be here, but I am because fighting for freedom is the most important thing.
And here I thought playing games and having fun was the most important part of gaming...
You'd be forgiven for thinking so, but freedom is even more important than elf-games. I know, weird, right...? ;)
Your mistake is thinking that gaming is where to fight that battle. It's quite possible to separate the two, though in the case of those playing in the "culture war" there's obviously more need for imagination and suspension of disbelief than for those wanting to hunt dragons or fly FTL spacecraft.
I try fighting the culture war in other, non-gaming, ways, as well. So many micro-aggressions, so little time...
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 02:49:41 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 02, 2021, 01:05:20 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 12:41:37 PMRather than worry, wait for the product and give it a look.
What if this sort of event has happened multiple times before? And has led to the product being made worse each time? And yet it still spreads to more media types, entertainment mediums, conventions and professions that I like?
At which point am I allowed to be concerned?
If I knew that a writers guild was all doodoo. And it suddenly took over writing for a series of pulps that I liked. Am I allowed to be concerned?
You're the consumer. Buy or don't buy, but entertainment is hardly worth getting upset over. Find something that you like, or perhaps create something you like if you're on that side of it.
The part above I put into bold... I'm hoping that's the dumbest thing you've said all year.
Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 03, 2021, 08:21:39 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 02:49:41 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 02, 2021, 01:05:20 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 12:41:37 PMRather than worry, wait for the product and give it a look.
What if this sort of event has happened multiple times before? And has led to the product being made worse each time? And yet it still spreads to more media types, entertainment mediums, conventions and professions that I like?
At which point am I allowed to be concerned?
If I knew that a writers guild was all doodoo. And it suddenly took over writing for a series of pulps that I liked. Am I allowed to be concerned?
You're the consumer. Buy or don't buy, but entertainment is hardly worth getting upset over. Find something that you like, or perhaps create something you like if you're on that side of it.
The part above I put into bold... I'm hoping that's the dumbest thing you've said all year.
I know a lot of people take their entertainment a lot more seriously than I do, but to believe it's worth going to "war" over is silly. There are far more important things to worry about than television, films, and games. Sorry if that's dismissive of your entire worldview (but, as you;ve got family, you're probably well aware of a great many things that really matter far more than entertainment).
On a side note, I've looked at several of your products. They aren't really my thing, but they give me the impression that you write them to have fun rather than to make statements or to wage a war. I hope that's the case.
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 09:11:21 AM
I know a lot of people take their entertainment a lot more seriously than I do, but to believe it's worth going to "war" over is silly.
The entertainment becoming bad is one thing, but your kinda missing the point:
Its that a cultural group has the authority to demand changes at all.
To put in perspective: I can be outraged that Charles F Murphy said a bunch of lies in the 1940s to force comics to conform to his standards, even if comics are not that important to my life objectively.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2021, 09:46:09 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 09:11:21 AM
I know a lot of people take their entertainment a lot more seriously than I do, but to believe it's worth going to "war" over is silly.
The entertainment becoming bad is one thing, but your kinda missing the point:
Its that a cultural group has the authority to demand changes at all.
To put in perspective: I can be outraged that Charles F Murphy said a bunch of lies in the 1940s to force comics to conform to his standards, even if comics are not that important to my life objectively.
If I were going back 70-ish years to find something to be outraged over, it wouldn't be comics.
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 09:49:49 AM
If I were going back 70-ish years to find something to be outraged over, it wouldn't be comics.
With how willfully mis-interpretive you are, I now doubt you are actually arguing in any amount of good faith.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2021, 10:09:16 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 09:49:49 AM
If I were going back 70-ish years to find something to be outraged over, it wouldn't be comics.
With how willfully mis-interpretive you are, I now doubt you are actually arguing in any amount of good faith.
Good faith to what? I've directly expressed that I think the "culture war" is a bunch of nothingness. My arguments are all in good faith towards that stance.
If you expect me to be open to the idea that the culture warriors might not be total morons tilting at windmills, then I would expect that the culture warriors would be open to the idea that they are total morons tilting at windmills. Short of that, there's not likely to be a common ground for a true good faith argument here.
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 10:14:32 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2021, 10:09:16 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 09:49:49 AM
If I were going back 70-ish years to find something to be outraged over, it wouldn't be comics.
With how willfully mis-interpretive you are, I now doubt you are actually arguing in any amount of good faith.
Good faith to what? I've directly expressed that I think the "culture war" is a bunch of nothingness. My arguments are all in good faith towards that stance.
If you expect me to be open to the idea that the culture warriors might not be total morons tilting at windmills, then I would expect that the culture warriors would be open to the idea that they are total morons tilting at windmills. Short of that, there's not likely to be a common ground for a true good faith argument here.
"It's just the gender studies graduates, the real world will set them straight"
"It's just videogames, you can still play your old games"
"It's just comics, you can still find plenty of comics to read"
"It's just Star Trek, Star Wars, Doctor Who, you can still find plenty of series to watch, it wasn't made for you bigot!"
"It's just RPGs, I'm still playing fine!"
In the meantime we see how the ideology has infiltrated even government, with Commiefornia wanting to abolish the prevision that prevents the government from discriminating based on immutable characteristics and colleges already do discriminate based on said characteristics.
Yep in this forum we talk about RPGs and how the ideology affects them, but it's not some isolated accident.
Best weapons in our arsenal are our voices: Criticizing and ridiculing the ideological propaganda disguissed as RPGs AND our wallet, vote with your dollars. But never stop voicing your opinion, mocking and ridiculing the ideologues in our hobby.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 03, 2021, 11:37:58 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 10:14:32 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2021, 10:09:16 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 09:49:49 AM
If I were going back 70-ish years to find something to be outraged over, it wouldn't be comics.
With how willfully mis-interpretive you are, I now doubt you are actually arguing in any amount of good faith.
Good faith to what? I've directly expressed that I think the "culture war" is a bunch of nothingness. My arguments are all in good faith towards that stance.
If you expect me to be open to the idea that the culture warriors might not be total morons tilting at windmills, then I would expect that the culture warriors would be open to the idea that they are total morons tilting at windmills. Short of that, there's not likely to be a common ground for a true good faith argument here.
"It's just the gender studies graduates, the real world will set them straight"
"It's just videogames, you can still play your old games"
"It's just comics, you can still find plenty of comics to read"
"It's just Star Trek, Star Wars, Doctor Who, you can still find plenty of series to watch, it wasn't made for you bigot!"
"It's just RPGs, I'm still playing fine!"
In the meantime we see how the ideology has infiltrated even government, with Commiefornia wanting to abolish the prevision that prevents the government from discriminating based on immutable characteristics and colleges already do discriminate based on said characteristics.
Yep in this forum we talk about RPGs and how the ideology affects them, but it's not some isolated accident.
Best weapons in our arsenal are our voices: Criticizing and ridiculing the ideological propaganda disguissed as RPGs AND our wallet, vote with your dollars. But never stop voicing your opinion, mocking and ridiculing the ideologues in our hobby.
Well, we can both agree on having fun mocking and ridiculing stupid ideas, and there's always plenty around around here to poke fun at. But for me, it's just that--having fun. For those that take it too seriously, I'll have fun mocking and ridiculing them too.
Good faith in the sense I don't believe you have any respect for arguing with me.
I brought up an example of how I could have a problem with social overreach over entertainment using historical precedent.
The argument back was:
'That doesn't matter. Also its old so its not worthwhile even bringing up'
I respect that you believe what I find important doesn't matter. But I do not believe you respect me back. Ergo this is my last thing I will say to you.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2021, 12:20:07 PM
Good faith in the sense I don't believe you have any respect for arguing with me.
I brought up an example of how I could have a problem with social overreach over entertainment using historical precedent.
The argument back was:
'That doesn't matter. Also its old so its not worthwhile even bringing up'
I respect that you believe what I find important doesn't matter. But I do not believe you respect me back. Ergo this is my last thing I will say to you.
Dude, you're expecting someone to validate your feelz on theRPGsite? That's hilarious.
Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 03, 2021, 08:21:39 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 02:49:41 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 02, 2021, 01:05:20 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 12:41:37 PMRather than worry, wait for the product and give it a look.
What if this sort of event has happened multiple times before? And has led to the product being made worse each time? And yet it still spreads to more media types, entertainment mediums, conventions and professions that I like?
At which point am I allowed to be concerned?
If I knew that a writers guild was all doodoo. And it suddenly took over writing for a series of pulps that I liked. Am I allowed to be concerned?
You're the consumer. Buy or don't buy, but entertainment is hardly worth getting upset over. Find something that you like, or perhaps create something you like if you're on that side of it.
The part above I put into bold... I'm hoping that's the dumbest thing you've said all year.
Oh no. He's said plenty of dumber things.
But to address the point at hand: politics is downstream from culture. One of the reasons we're in the soup so bad is because center and right proponents have kinda neglected that angle, letting the left have full custody. Hence why we're in the mess.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2021, 12:20:07 PM
I respect that you believe what I find important doesn't matter. But I do not believe you respect me back. Ergo this is my last thing I will say to you.
You're not alone. I already got sick of the bad behavior. Some amount of shitposting and poking is fine, and I have a pretty high tolerance for misunderstanding over text. But I don't see any real attempt at good faith discussion, so what's even the point.
Quote from: jhkim on October 02, 2021, 01:09:16 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 01, 2021, 11:19:46 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 01, 2021, 10:09:12 PM
Venger - I understand you can get that impression from creating your RPGs and looking at discussion in left-leaning RPG forums. On the other hand, around here, what I see are constant complaints over newly-published left-leaning RPG products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow, or just free game expansions like Sara Thompson's Combat Wheelchair.
I think in the current political climate, gamers of all politics are much more inclined to bitch about the other side than to talk constructively about their own games.
I don't condone calling someone a nazi who isn't one, but still, I'd call that more name-calling than harassment.
Yeah, because criticizing something is totally the same as what Venger is describing no?
Come on jhkim, I'm sure you can't believe that. I hope you don't because I think you're smarter than that. But maybe you think we're so stupid as to not see the false equivalence?
What Venger described in his post was getting banned from a private forum. I'm not saying getting banned is the same thing as criticism - but it's also not the same as harassment.
OF COURSE it's harassment. What's more, it's REAL harassment, not the pretend harassment the leftists invent to act like victims and demand people be destroyed, with stuff like "he publicly supported Trump and that hurts my feelings" or "he said things that offend me in a vague way as a woman/minority/alphabet-pronoun!!".
Venger's REAL Harassment included slander (being falsely called a "Nazi"), having his opportunity to do engage in commerce interfered with, and the intimidations of friends and clients.
And as far as I'm concerned at this point, all rules are out the window from this year onward. if we want to stop these Stalinist would-be mass-murderers, we have to do so with as much determination to hurt them as they have to hurt us.
Quote from: VengerSatanis on October 03, 2021, 08:21:39 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 02:49:41 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 02, 2021, 01:05:20 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 02, 2021, 12:41:37 PMRather than worry, wait for the product and give it a look.
What if this sort of event has happened multiple times before? And has led to the product being made worse each time? And yet it still spreads to more media types, entertainment mediums, conventions and professions that I like?
At which point am I allowed to be concerned?
If I knew that a writers guild was all doodoo. And it suddenly took over writing for a series of pulps that I liked. Am I allowed to be concerned?
You're the consumer. Buy or don't buy, but entertainment is hardly worth getting upset over. Find something that you like, or perhaps create something you like if you're on that side of it.
The part above I put into bold... I'm hoping that's the dumbest thing you've said all year.
The most obvious lie too. The entire left's approach to western culture is about "getting upset" (or pretending to) about entertainment.
Quote from: RPGPundit on October 03, 2021, 02:52:19 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 02, 2021, 01:09:16 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 01, 2021, 11:19:46 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 01, 2021, 10:09:12 PM
Venger - I understand you can get that impression from creating your RPGs and looking at discussion in left-leaning RPG forums. On the other hand, around here, what I see are constant complaints over newly-published left-leaning RPG products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow, or just free game expansions like Sara Thompson's Combat Wheelchair.
I think in the current political climate, gamers of all politics are much more inclined to bitch about the other side than to talk constructively about their own games.
I don't condone calling someone a nazi who isn't one, but still, I'd call that more name-calling than harassment.
Yeah, because criticizing something is totally the same as what Venger is describing no?
Come on jhkim, I'm sure you can't believe that. I hope you don't because I think you're smarter than that. But maybe you think we're so stupid as to not see the false equivalence?
What Venger described in his post was getting banned from a private forum. I'm not saying getting banned is the same thing as criticism - but it's also not the same as harassment.
OF COURSE it's harassment. What's more, it's REAL harassment, not the pretend harassment the leftists invent to act like victims and demand people be destroyed, with stuff like "he publicly supported Trump and that hurts my feelings" or "he said things that offend me in a vague way as a woman/minority/alphabet-pronoun!!".
Venger's REAL Harassment included slander (being falsely called a "Nazi"), having his opportunity to do engage in commerce interfered with, and the intimidations of friends and clients.
And as far as I'm concerned at this point, all rules are out the window from this year onward. if we want to stop these Stalinist would-be mass-murderers, we have to do so with as much determination to hurt them as they have to hurt us.
So calling someone a Nazi is not OK, but calling someone a Stalinist (or the more common Marxist) is OK?
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 03:02:26 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on October 03, 2021, 02:52:19 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 02, 2021, 01:09:16 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 01, 2021, 11:19:46 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 01, 2021, 10:09:12 PM
Venger - I understand you can get that impression from creating your RPGs and looking at discussion in left-leaning RPG forums. On the other hand, around here, what I see are constant complaints over newly-published left-leaning RPG products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow, or just free game expansions like Sara Thompson's Combat Wheelchair.
I think in the current political climate, gamers of all politics are much more inclined to bitch about the other side than to talk constructively about their own games.
I don't condone calling someone a nazi who isn't one, but still, I'd call that more name-calling than harassment.
Yeah, because criticizing something is totally the same as what Venger is describing no?
Come on jhkim, I'm sure you can't believe that. I hope you don't because I think you're smarter than that. But maybe you think we're so stupid as to not see the false equivalence?
What Venger described in his post was getting banned from a private forum. I'm not saying getting banned is the same thing as criticism - but it's also not the same as harassment.
OF COURSE it's harassment. What's more, it's REAL harassment, not the pretend harassment the leftists invent to act like victims and demand people be destroyed, with stuff like "he publicly supported Trump and that hurts my feelings" or "he said things that offend me in a vague way as a woman/minority/alphabet-pronoun!!".
Venger's REAL Harassment included slander (being falsely called a "Nazi"), having his opportunity to do engage in commerce interfered with, and the intimidations of friends and clients.
And as far as I'm concerned at this point, all rules are out the window from this year onward. if we want to stop these Stalinist would-be mass-murderers, we have to do so with as much determination to hurt them as they have to hurt us.
So calling someone a Nazi is not OK, but calling someone a Stalinist (or the more common Marxist) is OK?
Falsely calling someone a Nazi vs acuratelly describing someone as a Stalinist/Marxist/Commiescum...
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 03, 2021, 03:18:16 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 03:02:26 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on October 03, 2021, 02:52:19 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 02, 2021, 01:09:16 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 01, 2021, 11:19:46 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 01, 2021, 10:09:12 PM
Venger - I understand you can get that impression from creating your RPGs and looking at discussion in left-leaning RPG forums. On the other hand, around here, what I see are constant complaints over newly-published left-leaning RPG products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow, or just free game expansions like Sara Thompson's Combat Wheelchair.
I think in the current political climate, gamers of all politics are much more inclined to bitch about the other side than to talk constructively about their own games.
I don't condone calling someone a nazi who isn't one, but still, I'd call that more name-calling than harassment.
Yeah, because criticizing something is totally the same as what Venger is describing no?
Come on jhkim, I'm sure you can't believe that. I hope you don't because I think you're smarter than that. But maybe you think we're so stupid as to not see the false equivalence?
What Venger described in his post was getting banned from a private forum. I'm not saying getting banned is the same thing as criticism - but it's also not the same as harassment.
OF COURSE it's harassment. What's more, it's REAL harassment, not the pretend harassment the leftists invent to act like victims and demand people be destroyed, with stuff like "he publicly supported Trump and that hurts my feelings" or "he said things that offend me in a vague way as a woman/minority/alphabet-pronoun!!".
Venger's REAL Harassment included slander (being falsely called a "Nazi"), having his opportunity to do engage in commerce interfered with, and the intimidations of friends and clients.
And as far as I'm concerned at this point, all rules are out the window from this year onward. if we want to stop these Stalinist would-be mass-murderers, we have to do so with as much determination to hurt them as they have to hurt us.
So calling someone a Nazi is not OK, but calling someone a Stalinist (or the more common Marxist) is OK?
Falsely calling someone a Nazi vs acuratelly describing someone as a Stalinist/Marxist/Commiescum...
Oh please, there's no accuracy in either of them in the vast majority of uses. At this point, they are both just meaningless insults slung because the other person is on the other side of this nonsensical "culture war" bullshit. That you believe otherwise shows just how deluded and out of touch with reality you really are.
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 03:21:08 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 03, 2021, 03:18:16 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 03:02:26 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on October 03, 2021, 02:52:19 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 02, 2021, 01:09:16 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 01, 2021, 11:19:46 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 01, 2021, 10:09:12 PM
Venger - I understand you can get that impression from creating your RPGs and looking at discussion in left-leaning RPG forums. On the other hand, around here, what I see are constant complaints over newly-published left-leaning RPG products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow, or just free game expansions like Sara Thompson's Combat Wheelchair.
I think in the current political climate, gamers of all politics are much more inclined to bitch about the other side than to talk constructively about their own games.
I don't condone calling someone a nazi who isn't one, but still, I'd call that more name-calling than harassment.
Yeah, because criticizing something is totally the same as what Venger is describing no?
Come on jhkim, I'm sure you can't believe that. I hope you don't because I think you're smarter than that. But maybe you think we're so stupid as to not see the false equivalence?
What Venger described in his post was getting banned from a private forum. I'm not saying getting banned is the same thing as criticism - but it's also not the same as harassment.
OF COURSE it's harassment. What's more, it's REAL harassment, not the pretend harassment the leftists invent to act like victims and demand people be destroyed, with stuff like "he publicly supported Trump and that hurts my feelings" or "he said things that offend me in a vague way as a woman/minority/alphabet-pronoun!!".
Venger's REAL Harassment included slander (being falsely called a "Nazi"), having his opportunity to do engage in commerce interfered with, and the intimidations of friends and clients.
And as far as I'm concerned at this point, all rules are out the window from this year onward. if we want to stop these Stalinist would-be mass-murderers, we have to do so with as much determination to hurt them as they have to hurt us.
So calling someone a Nazi is not OK, but calling someone a Stalinist (or the more common Marxist) is OK?
Falsely calling someone a Nazi vs acuratelly describing someone as a Stalinist/Marxist/Commiescum...
Oh please, there's no accuracy in either of them in the vast majority of uses. At this point, they are both just meaningless insults slung because the other person is on the other side. That you believe otherwise shows just how deluded and out of touch with reality you really are.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck I'm sure it's not a chicken.
But I'll grant you this, SOME might just be usefull idiots of the commiescum.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 03, 2021, 03:23:10 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 03:21:08 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 03, 2021, 03:18:16 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 03:02:26 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on October 03, 2021, 02:52:19 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 02, 2021, 01:09:16 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 01, 2021, 11:19:46 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 01, 2021, 10:09:12 PM
Venger - I understand you can get that impression from creating your RPGs and looking at discussion in left-leaning RPG forums. On the other hand, around here, what I see are constant complaints over newly-published left-leaning RPG products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow, or just free game expansions like Sara Thompson's Combat Wheelchair.
I think in the current political climate, gamers of all politics are much more inclined to bitch about the other side than to talk constructively about their own games.
I don't condone calling someone a nazi who isn't one, but still, I'd call that more name-calling than harassment.
Yeah, because criticizing something is totally the same as what Venger is describing no?
Come on jhkim, I'm sure you can't believe that. I hope you don't because I think you're smarter than that. But maybe you think we're so stupid as to not see the false equivalence?
What Venger described in his post was getting banned from a private forum. I'm not saying getting banned is the same thing as criticism - but it's also not the same as harassment.
OF COURSE it's harassment. What's more, it's REAL harassment, not the pretend harassment the leftists invent to act like victims and demand people be destroyed, with stuff like "he publicly supported Trump and that hurts my feelings" or "he said things that offend me in a vague way as a woman/minority/alphabet-pronoun!!".
Venger's REAL Harassment included slander (being falsely called a "Nazi"), having his opportunity to do engage in commerce interfered with, and the intimidations of friends and clients.
And as far as I'm concerned at this point, all rules are out the window from this year onward. if we want to stop these Stalinist would-be mass-murderers, we have to do so with as much determination to hurt them as they have to hurt us.
So calling someone a Nazi is not OK, but calling someone a Stalinist (or the more common Marxist) is OK?
Falsely calling someone a Nazi vs acuratelly describing someone as a Stalinist/Marxist/Commiescum...
Oh please, there's no accuracy in either of them in the vast majority of uses. At this point, they are both just meaningless insults slung because the other person is on the other side. That you believe otherwise shows just how deluded and out of touch with reality you really are.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck I'm sure it's not a chicken.
But I'll grant you this, SOME might just be usefull idiots of the commiescum.
Does your side not have useful idiots? I'd hate to think you weren't useful to them...unless you're actually one of THEM!
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 03:02:26 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on October 03, 2021, 02:52:19 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 02, 2021, 01:09:16 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 01, 2021, 11:19:46 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 01, 2021, 10:09:12 PM
Venger - I understand you can get that impression from creating your RPGs and looking at discussion in left-leaning RPG forums. On the other hand, around here, what I see are constant complaints over newly-published left-leaning RPG products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow, or just free game expansions like Sara Thompson's Combat Wheelchair.
I think in the current political climate, gamers of all politics are much more inclined to bitch about the other side than to talk constructively about their own games.
I don't condone calling someone a nazi who isn't one, but still, I'd call that more name-calling than harassment.
Yeah, because criticizing something is totally the same as what Venger is describing no?
Come on jhkim, I'm sure you can't believe that. I hope you don't because I think you're smarter than that. But maybe you think we're so stupid as to not see the false equivalence?
What Venger described in his post was getting banned from a private forum. I'm not saying getting banned is the same thing as criticism - but it's also not the same as harassment.
OF COURSE it's harassment. What's more, it's REAL harassment, not the pretend harassment the leftists invent to act like victims and demand people be destroyed, with stuff like "he publicly supported Trump and that hurts my feelings" or "he said things that offend me in a vague way as a woman/minority/alphabet-pronoun!!".
Venger's REAL Harassment included slander (being falsely called a "Nazi"), having his opportunity to do engage in commerce interfered with, and the intimidations of friends and clients.
And as far as I'm concerned at this point, all rules are out the window from this year onward. if we want to stop these Stalinist would-be mass-murderers, we have to do so with as much determination to hurt them as they have to hurt us.
So calling someone a Nazi is not OK, but calling someone a Stalinist (or the more common Marxist) is OK?
Of course, if they are real Stalinists and Marxists, and you know they are from their behavior.
I mean, it's "not OK" in the bigger sense, that these people are would-be mass-murderers and should be treated with the same level of social shunning as Nazis are, because they're the same level of scum.
Quote from: RPGPundit on October 03, 2021, 03:29:19 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 03:02:26 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on October 03, 2021, 02:52:19 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 02, 2021, 01:09:16 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 01, 2021, 11:19:46 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 01, 2021, 10:09:12 PM
Venger - I understand you can get that impression from creating your RPGs and looking at discussion in left-leaning RPG forums. On the other hand, around here, what I see are constant complaints over newly-published left-leaning RPG products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow, or just free game expansions like Sara Thompson's Combat Wheelchair.
I think in the current political climate, gamers of all politics are much more inclined to bitch about the other side than to talk constructively about their own games.
I don't condone calling someone a nazi who isn't one, but still, I'd call that more name-calling than harassment.
Yeah, because criticizing something is totally the same as what Venger is describing no?
Come on jhkim, I'm sure you can't believe that. I hope you don't because I think you're smarter than that. But maybe you think we're so stupid as to not see the false equivalence?
What Venger described in his post was getting banned from a private forum. I'm not saying getting banned is the same thing as criticism - but it's also not the same as harassment.
OF COURSE it's harassment. What's more, it's REAL harassment, not the pretend harassment the leftists invent to act like victims and demand people be destroyed, with stuff like "he publicly supported Trump and that hurts my feelings" or "he said things that offend me in a vague way as a woman/minority/alphabet-pronoun!!".
Venger's REAL Harassment included slander (being falsely called a "Nazi"), having his opportunity to do engage in commerce interfered with, and the intimidations of friends and clients.
And as far as I'm concerned at this point, all rules are out the window from this year onward. if we want to stop these Stalinist would-be mass-murderers, we have to do so with as much determination to hurt them as they have to hurt us.
So calling someone a Nazi is not OK, but calling someone a Stalinist (or the more common Marxist) is OK?
Of course, if they are real Stalinists and Marxists, and you know they are from their behavior.
I mean, it's "not OK" in the bigger sense, that these people are would-be mass-murderers and should be treated with the same level of social shunning as Nazis are, because they're the same level of scum.
In the cases of both words though, they are nearly powerless (at least in the USA) for defamation purposes. They really don't qualify as harassment other than to say Nazi = roght-leaning jackass and Marxist = left-leaning jackass but only from the view of the one using the term (and no accuracy there is guaranteed). Again in both cases, recipient behavior barely matters at all, and those labeled with either term are highly unlikely to possess the tendencies of "would-be mass-murders." That's all hyperbolic bullshit.
Saying your a marxist will get you a weird look and in some places an award.
Saying your a nazi will get you fired.
Equivocation of the two is just more intellectual dishonesty.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2021, 03:35:56 PM
Saying your a marxist will get you a weird look and in some places an award.
Saying your a nazi will get you fired.
Equivocation of the two is just more intellectual dishonesty.
There's a big difference in self-identifing with either term and being called one by someone else.
If someone calles me either a Nazi or a Marxist, it means jack shit.
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 03:37:41 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2021, 03:35:56 PM
Saying your a marxist will get you a weird look and in some places an award.
Saying your a nazi will get you fired.
Equivocation of the two is just more intellectual dishonesty.
There's a big difference in self-identifing with either term and being called one by someone else.
If someone calles me either a Nazi or a Marxist, it means jack shit.
If someone calls you a nazi it does mean something, especially if that someone can rile up a mob to make sure you're unemployable, can't have a bank account and your family can't go outside without risking harassment at best and violence at worst.
But someone calling you a marxist could at worst get you a weird look and at best a job.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 03, 2021, 03:47:39 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 03:37:41 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2021, 03:35:56 PM
Saying your a marxist will get you a weird look and in some places an award.
Saying your a nazi will get you fired.
Equivocation of the two is just more intellectual dishonesty.
There's a big difference in self-identifing with either term and being called one by someone else.
If someone calles me either a Nazi or a Marxist, it means jack shit.
If someone calls you a nazi it does mean something, especially if that someone can rile up a mob to make sure you're unemployable, can't have a bank account and your family can't go outside without risking harassment at best and violence at worst.
But someone calling you a marxist could at worst get you a weird look and at best a job.
Just keep on living in your delusional world where the culture war dominates all. Me, I'll stick to reality (with a side of whatever crazy shit Florida features this week).
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 03:50:51 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 03, 2021, 03:47:39 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 03:37:41 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2021, 03:35:56 PM
Saying your a marxist will get you a weird look and in some places an award.
Saying your a nazi will get you fired.
Equivocation of the two is just more intellectual dishonesty.
There's a big difference in self-identifing with either term and being called one by someone else.
If someone calles me either a Nazi or a Marxist, it means jack shit.
If someone calls you a nazi it does mean something, especially if that someone can rile up a mob to make sure you're unemployable, can't have a bank account and your family can't go outside without risking harassment at best and violence at worst.
But someone calling you a marxist could at worst get you a weird look and at best a job.
Just keep on living in your delusional world where the culture war dominates all. Me, I'll stick to reality (with a side of whatever crazy shit Florida features this week).
You can't be this dumb so you must be lying.
I find it impossible to believe you haven't heard/read of the many times that stuff has happened.
Anyhow, since you're either too dumb or too dishonest I'm done engaging with you.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 03, 2021, 04:07:42 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 03:50:51 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 03, 2021, 03:47:39 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 03:37:41 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2021, 03:35:56 PM
Saying your a marxist will get you a weird look and in some places an award.
Saying your a nazi will get you fired.
Equivocation of the two is just more intellectual dishonesty.
There's a big difference in self-identifing with either term and being called one by someone else.
If someone calles me either a Nazi or a Marxist, it means jack shit.
If someone calls you a nazi it does mean something, especially if that someone can rile up a mob to make sure you're unemployable, can't have a bank account and your family can't go outside without risking harassment at best and violence at worst.
But someone calling you a marxist could at worst get you a weird look and at best a job.
Just keep on living in your delusional world where the culture war dominates all. Me, I'll stick to reality (with a side of whatever crazy shit Florida features this week).
You can't be this dumb so you must be lying.
I find it impossible to believe you haven't heard/read of the many times that stuff has happened.
Anyhow, since you're either too dumb or too dishonest I'm done engaging with you.
Just like you're done engaging with reality!
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 04:13:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 03, 2021, 04:07:42 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 03:50:51 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 03, 2021, 03:47:39 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 03:37:41 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2021, 03:35:56 PM
Saying your a marxist will get you a weird look and in some places an award.
Saying your a nazi will get you fired.
Equivocation of the two is just more intellectual dishonesty.
There's a big difference in self-identifing with either term and being called one by someone else.
If someone calles me either a Nazi or a Marxist, it means jack shit.
If someone calls you a nazi it does mean something, especially if that someone can rile up a mob to make sure you're unemployable, can't have a bank account and your family can't go outside without risking harassment at best and violence at worst.
But someone calling you a marxist could at worst get you a weird look and at best a job.
Just keep on living in your delusional world where the culture war dominates all. Me, I'll stick to reality (with a side of whatever crazy shit Florida features this week).
You can't be this dumb so you must be lying.
I find it impossible to believe you haven't heard/read of the many times that stuff has happened.
Anyhow, since you're either too dumb or too dishonest I'm done engaging with you.
Just like you're done engaging with reality!
You heard it here first folks, HappyDerp dictates what's reality and what's not.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 03, 2021, 04:40:37 PM
You heard it here first folks, HappyDerp dictates what's reality and what's not.
So thats why!
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 03, 2021, 04:40:37 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 04:13:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 03, 2021, 04:07:42 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 03:50:51 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 03, 2021, 03:47:39 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 03:37:41 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2021, 03:35:56 PM
Saying your a marxist will get you a weird look and in some places an award.
Saying your a nazi will get you fired.
Equivocation of the two is just more intellectual dishonesty.
There's a big difference in self-identifing with either term and being called one by someone else.
If someone calles me either a Nazi or a Marxist, it means jack shit.
If someone calls you a nazi it does mean something, especially if that someone can rile up a mob to make sure you're unemployable, can't have a bank account and your family can't go outside without risking harassment at best and violence at worst.
But someone calling you a marxist could at worst get you a weird look and at best a job.
Just keep on living in your delusional world where the culture war dominates all. Me, I'll stick to reality (with a side of whatever crazy shit Florida features this week).
You can't be this dumb so you must be lying.
I find it impossible to believe you haven't heard/read of the many times that stuff has happened.
Anyhow, since you're either too dumb or too dishonest I'm done engaging with you.
Just like you're done engaging with reality!
You heard it here first folks, HappyDerp dictates what's reality and what's not.
You could certainly benefit from some guidance in recognizing reality, but I'm not going to dictate it to you. Enjoy your delusions, really, they might be all you have.
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 04:48:45 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 03, 2021, 04:40:37 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 04:13:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 03, 2021, 04:07:42 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 03:50:51 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 03, 2021, 03:47:39 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 03:37:41 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2021, 03:35:56 PM
Saying your a marxist will get you a weird look and in some places an award.
Saying your a nazi will get you fired.
Equivocation of the two is just more intellectual dishonesty.
There's a big difference in self-identifing with either term and being called one by someone else.
If someone calles me either a Nazi or a Marxist, it means jack shit.
If someone calls you a nazi it does mean something, especially if that someone can rile up a mob to make sure you're unemployable, can't have a bank account and your family can't go outside without risking harassment at best and violence at worst.
But someone calling you a marxist could at worst get you a weird look and at best a job.
Just keep on living in your delusional world where the culture war dominates all. Me, I'll stick to reality (with a side of whatever crazy shit Florida features this week).
You can't be this dumb so you must be lying.
I find it impossible to believe you haven't heard/read of the many times that stuff has happened.
Anyhow, since you're either too dumb or too dishonest I'm done engaging with you.
Just like you're done engaging with reality!
You heard it here first folks, HappyDerp dictates what's reality and what's not.
You could certainly benefit from some guidance in recognizing reality, but I'm not going to dictate it to you. Enjoy your delusions, really, they might be all you have.
HappyDerp internet psychologist at large...
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 03, 2021, 03:23:10 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 03:21:08 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 03, 2021, 03:18:16 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 03:02:26 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on October 03, 2021, 02:52:19 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 02, 2021, 01:09:16 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 01, 2021, 11:19:46 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 01, 2021, 10:09:12 PM
Venger - I understand you can get that impression from creating your RPGs and looking at discussion in left-leaning RPG forums. On the other hand, around here, what I see are constant complaints over newly-published left-leaning RPG products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow, or just free game expansions like Sara Thompson's Combat Wheelchair.
I think in the current political climate, gamers of all politics are much more inclined to bitch about the other side than to talk constructively about their own games.
I don't condone calling someone a nazi who isn't one, but still, I'd call that more name-calling than harassment.
Yeah, because criticizing something is totally the same as what Venger is describing no?
Come on jhkim, I'm sure you can't believe that. I hope you don't because I think you're smarter than that. But maybe you think we're so stupid as to not see the false equivalence?
What Venger described in his post was getting banned from a private forum. I'm not saying getting banned is the same thing as criticism - but it's also not the same as harassment.
OF COURSE it's harassment. What's more, it's REAL harassment, not the pretend harassment the leftists invent to act like victims and demand people be destroyed, with stuff like "he publicly supported Trump and that hurts my feelings" or "he said things that offend me in a vague way as a woman/minority/alphabet-pronoun!!".
Venger's REAL Harassment included slander (being falsely called a "Nazi"), having his opportunity to do engage in commerce interfered with, and the intimidations of friends and clients.
And as far as I'm concerned at this point, all rules are out the window from this year onward. if we want to stop these Stalinist would-be mass-murderers, we have to do so with as much determination to hurt them as they have to hurt us.
So calling someone a Nazi is not OK, but calling someone a Stalinist (or the more common Marxist) is OK?
Falsely calling someone a Nazi vs acuratelly describing someone as a Stalinist/Marxist/Commiescum...
Oh please, there's no accuracy in either of them in the vast majority of uses. At this point, they are both just meaningless insults slung because the other person is on the other side. That you believe otherwise shows just how deluded and out of touch with reality you really are.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck I'm sure it's not a chicken.
But I'll grant you this, SOME might just be usefull idiots of the commiescum.
Greetings!
*laughing* Some morons don't believe that the "Culture War" exists. Amazing. The absolute head-up-their-ass stupidity is mind-numbing. That's what you get with these clueless morons though. Our society is full of such morons living in blind, blissful denial.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on October 03, 2021, 07:43:34 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 03, 2021, 03:23:10 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 03:21:08 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 03, 2021, 03:18:16 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 03:02:26 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on October 03, 2021, 02:52:19 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 02, 2021, 01:09:16 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 01, 2021, 11:19:46 PM
Quote from: jhkim on October 01, 2021, 10:09:12 PM
Venger - I understand you can get that impression from creating your RPGs and looking at discussion in left-leaning RPG forums. On the other hand, around here, what I see are constant complaints over newly-published left-leaning RPG products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow, or just free game expansions like Sara Thompson's Combat Wheelchair.
I think in the current political climate, gamers of all politics are much more inclined to bitch about the other side than to talk constructively about their own games.
I don't condone calling someone a nazi who isn't one, but still, I'd call that more name-calling than harassment.
Yeah, because criticizing something is totally the same as what Venger is describing no?
Come on jhkim, I'm sure you can't believe that. I hope you don't because I think you're smarter than that. But maybe you think we're so stupid as to not see the false equivalence?
What Venger described in his post was getting banned from a private forum. I'm not saying getting banned is the same thing as criticism - but it's also not the same as harassment.
OF COURSE it's harassment. What's more, it's REAL harassment, not the pretend harassment the leftists invent to act like victims and demand people be destroyed, with stuff like "he publicly supported Trump and that hurts my feelings" or "he said things that offend me in a vague way as a woman/minority/alphabet-pronoun!!".
Venger's REAL Harassment included slander (being falsely called a "Nazi"), having his opportunity to do engage in commerce interfered with, and the intimidations of friends and clients.
And as far as I'm concerned at this point, all rules are out the window from this year onward. if we want to stop these Stalinist would-be mass-murderers, we have to do so with as much determination to hurt them as they have to hurt us.
So calling someone a Nazi is not OK, but calling someone a Stalinist (or the more common Marxist) is OK?
Falsely calling someone a Nazi vs acuratelly describing someone as a Stalinist/Marxist/Commiescum...
Oh please, there's no accuracy in either of them in the vast majority of uses. At this point, they are both just meaningless insults slung because the other person is on the other side. That you believe otherwise shows just how deluded and out of touch with reality you really are.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck I'm sure it's not a chicken.
But I'll grant you this, SOME might just be usefull idiots of the commiescum.
Greetings!
*laughing* Some morons don't believe that the "Culture War" exists. Amazing. The absolute head-up-their-ass stupidity is mind-numbing. That's what you get with these clueless morons though. Our society is full of such morons living in blind, blissful denial.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Yes, by all means keep fighting your secret war to save us from the Matrix, you dumbass.
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 07:51:51 PM
Yes, by all means keep fighting your secret war to save us from the Matrix, you dumbass.
This low effort gaslighting is neither informed nor persuasive. Your bossy instinct to spew smugness doesn't sell anything or debunk anything. You're whining and snapping and yet you claim it's all about nothing so frankly, who gives a shit? Not me. There is no more need for me to read your badly formed, dim, useless, hostile, empty, "poopoo it with me me or else because I say so" ankle biter posts. Count me among those other people who are done paying attention to you or communicating with you further. I'm done listening to you reading from your killer list of dumb rhetorical tricks for /reddit bosses.
Quote from: palaeomerus on October 03, 2021, 08:59:09 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 07:51:51 PM
Yes, by all means keep fighting your secret war to save us from the Matrix, you dumbass.
This low effort gaslighting is neither informed nor persuasive. Your bossy instinct to spew smugness doesn't sell anything or debunk anything. You're whining and snapping and yet you claim it's all about nothing so frankly, who gives a shit? Not me. There is no more need for me to read your badly formed, dim, useless, hostile, empty, "poopoo it with me me or else because I say so" ankle biter posts. Count me among those other people who are done paying attention to you or communicating with you further. I'm done listening to you reading from your killer list of dumb rhetorical tricks for /reddit bosses.
Bye! Come back to reality any time you're ready. It won't wait for you, but it will still be here.
Quote from: palaeomerus on October 03, 2021, 08:59:09 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on October 03, 2021, 07:51:51 PM
Yes, by all means keep fighting your secret war to save us from the Matrix, you dumbass.
This low effort gaslighting is neither informed nor persuasive. Your bossy instinct to spew smugness doesn't sell anything or debunk anything. You're whining and snapping and yet you claim it's all about nothing so frankly, who gives a shit? Not me. There is no more need for me to read your badly formed, dim, useless, hostile, empty, "poopoo it with me me or else because I say so" ankle biter posts. Count me among those other people who are done paying attention to you or communicating with you further. I'm done listening to you reading from your killer list of dumb rhetorical tricks for /reddit bosses.
Greetings!
Strange how that list just seems to keep growing, heh? ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on October 03, 2021, 07:43:34 PM
Greetings!
*laughing* Some morons don't believe that the "Culture War" exists. Amazing. The absolute head-up-their-ass stupidity is mind-numbing. That's what you get with these clueless morons though. Our society is full of such morons living in blind, blissful denial.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Those who agree with the positions of the Left see no reason to upset the apple cart. They also have to pretend not to know things (chiefly all the failure and misery that occurs wherever their ideas are embraced) in order to not come off as criminally insane.
The OSR Discord channel, or at least the main one that I know of, has a loud minority of commies, revisionists, anti-colonialists, whatever you want to call them--SJWs I guess--who really get on one's nerves at times. Recently we had a nice little RPG.net style lynching of a user for offending the usual types. He was banned instantly, no warning, for asking another user if he didn't have enough OSR in his life already, seeing as how he was looking for a game in an East African timezone.
These haters of the West love to call in the mods when they get triggered.
It's really tiresome. On one hand there's a lot of creativity going on in there, and it's a good place to find players. But on the other hand if I drop in to the general chat about a quarter of the time some teenager is spouting off about how AWFUL Tolkien is and what a terrible bigot Gygax must have been to ever include evil monsters in his game.
Sometimes there are glimmers of resistance against this kind of lunacy, but they stick together, these pearl-clutchers, and are very loud indeed.
Some recent blurbs, to give you an idea of the quality of conversation:
"Like... the function of orcs and hobgoblins in D&D, the reason they were included? Does Not Require that orcs and hobgoblins be thinly-veiled allegories for colonized POC. And the problem isn't that orcs and hobgoblins are all universally fucking awful, the problem is they're all universally fucking awful combined with that unnecessary and offensive coding."
"Literally every single problem with alignment comes from the fact that it was designed to justify war crimes as objectively Good.
It's a system designed to simulate morality by a man with zero relevant personal experience.
Because it's not good enough for D&D to let you play out your adolescent power fantasies with your friends... it has to make the angels descend upon you from on high to sing your praises."
Spiteful, self-righteous little ninnies.
QuoteThey also have to pretend not to know things (chiefly all the failure and misery that occurs wherever their ideas are embraced) in order to not come off as criminally insane.
Considering vast majority of leftists dreams about estabilishing Scandinavian welfare state in USA, not leninism, I think generally speaking they can.
I mean as a Catholic conservatist I despise Scandinavia, but like it's far far from what Soviet brand of communism was in terms of life comfort and so on. And liblefts generally hate tankies.
Quote*laughing* Some morons don't believe that the "Culture War" exists. Amazing. The absolute head-up-their-ass stupidity is mind-numbing. That's what you get with these clueless morons though. Our society is full of such morons living in blind, blissful denial.
Of course there is not. There is Cultural Hegemony, and various small centres of resistance. That does not constitutes war.
War if any was lost in 60s without much shots fired, everything later is inevitable aftermatch :P
For 45 years Poland was under Soviet yoke, and there was always resistance in the nation. But in no point is reached status of war.
And maybe it's better as full on war could be way way more devastating, than keeping opposition while system crumbled from inefficiency.
QuoteIt's a system designed to simulate morality by a man with zero relevant personal experience.
With all my alignment-hate that's just moronic. Next time Hit Points as a system designed to simulate wounds by a man with zero relevant personal experience ;)
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 04, 2021, 06:47:26 AM
Quote from: SHARK on October 03, 2021, 07:43:34 PM
Greetings!
*laughing* Some morons don't believe that the "Culture War" exists. Amazing. The absolute head-up-their-ass stupidity is mind-numbing. That's what you get with these clueless morons though. Our society is full of such morons living in blind, blissful denial.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Those who agree with the positions of the Left see no reason to upset the apple cart. They also have to pretend not to know things (chiefly all the failure and misery that occurs wherever their ideas are embraced) in order to not come off as criminally insane.
There's no need for them to pretend. They truly believe they are doing things "for the greater good." People like that are, by all definitions in the DSM, clinically insane.
Aaaand I've been banned. "Tinker" is a slur by the way to gypsies, which is also a slur, and arguing about it is bannable.
Quote from: Trinculoisdead on December 17, 2021, 11:07:44 AM
Aaaand I've been banned. "Tinker" is a slur by the way to gypsies, which is also a slur, and arguing about it is bannable.
What a gyp!
Quote from: Trinculoisdead on December 17, 2021, 11:07:44 AM
Aaaand I've been banned. "Tinker" is a slur by the way to gypsies, which is also a slur, and arguing about it is bannable.
Did you really want to hang around a place like that anyhow?
Quote from: Ocule on July 03, 2021, 11:07:15 AM
Wasn't sure if this belonged here or in the rpg pundits own thread, but anyway I wanted to discuss what we can actually do about the SJWs in the hobby. I've been fighting the good fight for a while now, standing up to those sjw bullies whenever they pop their stupid little heads up. Usually i'll use logic and reason, other times i'll use sarcasm and mockery if i think they're too dense to get the former but it always ends the same. A banning from whatever website or platform it's being discussed on. Normally I wouldn't give a flying rats ass about being banned from a politically charged cesspool, but i'm starting to despair as one community after another falls to this cult. I use community as in specific groups, such as discords, facebook groups and internet forums. Othertimes it will be a game company who made a game i really used to enjoy, though i find it harder and harder to actually enjoy content while trying to overlook the obvious jabs and commentary in their actual products.
I'll buy into a game series, spend my hard earned cash on a line of products and get involved with other players finding people to play the game or discuss the hobby with. It seems great but then give it a year or so and next thing you know either the majority of the online communities or the company itself falls to woke bullshit. Often times you have a group or two that establishes itself as the officially sanctioned unofficial group, (see Genesys RPG, or Savage Worlds). The devs are usually part of that community and use it as an official platform to put out information or interact with their fans. So getting banned from a community is pretty can be pretty upsetting especially when you've already invested heavily into the game line. A bit anecdotal here, but I was banned from a community for discussing the half orcs and their origins. After talking with the admin I was told in no uncertain terms that if I had not been "right leaning" I would not have been banned and instead probably given a warning. I probably have around 400 dollars in physical merchandise from the game company associated in books and game aids. On the other hand with the Genesys RPG, there is an unofficial group that has set itself up as the defacto "community" and acts as if they were speaking on behalf of fantasy flight games and the rpg system, and the actual owners of the game don't seem to care.
Expanding this into OSR, i've found that OSR game communities are hit or miss and lately have been more miss than hit. I'm practically going blind from all the fucking rainbows. Hell even the WHFRP and 40k sites are going more and more woke to a disgusting degree. Not sure how a game with a literal rape monster ever got woke. I invested heavily into 5e D&D when it first came out as well until they got all woke (tomb of annihilation was the last straw for me) now they sit in a box in the attic.
Anyway the point to all this rambling besides just blowing off steam at my frustrations is how do we reasonably oppose these people and successfully gatekeep our hobby without getting yeeted from the internet or pretty much insta banned from a community. It has made me very hesitant to want to pick up new games because I hate to invest my time and money into a game where the devs hate me and would see me put in a fucking gulag if they could and what is apolitical or not woke today, won't necessarily be still apolitical or not woke tomorrow.
TL;DR How do we gatekeep the sjws/progressive nonsense without getting instantly yeeted off the internet.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxglAzZ-zTY
first post - I registered for this site because a search led me to this thread
God bless you all for this
Quote from: tenbones on December 17, 2021, 03:21:50 PM
Quote from: Trinculoisdead on December 17, 2021, 11:07:44 AM
Aaaand I've been banned. "Tinker" is a slur by the way to gypsies, which is also a slur, and arguing about it is bannable.
Did you really want to hang around a place like that anyhow?
It was pretty good for finding players, and for casual dungeon-delving games. But now I gots to go elsewhere, wandering along the roads like one of them tinkers!
Specific company discords i have some luck finding games, like necrotic gnome, troll lord games, frog god games etc. The discord called "OSR" just looked like pure cancer.
One obstacle; is that so many of these pink lace cupcakes, believe that they are highly intelligent and morally pure. They see themselves as being the righteous among us. They are true believers, who can't be converted. They are also active and vocal. The average "Normal" human being, doesn't have time for all this nonsense; because we work jobs, and pay our own bills.
Well yes of course. If you look at, for example, the cancerous OSR discord server, the number of pronoun-bearing, marxist-loving, civilization-dismantlers are a teeny tiny portion of the hundreds of users. The cancer is virulent, but relatively small.
But, as cancers do, this one grows stronger over time. Specifically, it tightens its hold on the identity of the server by periodically chopping off the most obvious opponents to its ideas.
Quote from: Jam The MF on December 18, 2021, 01:55:27 AM
One obstacle; is that so many of these pink lace cupcakes, believe that they are highly intelligent and morally pure. They see themselves as being the righteous among us. They are true believers, who can't be converted. They are also active and vocal. The average "Normal" human being, doesn't have time for all this nonsense; because we work jobs, and pay our own bills.
That thinking is because we've allowed kids to bring home participation trophies and have continually told them how special they are. The vast majority of them are barely midwits who should be digging ditches or scrubbing toilets for a living instead of spouting banalities because their gender studies degree told them they're qualified to give an opinion. But hey, now that places like Harvard no longer require SAT/ACT scores for admission and don't care about grades so long as you're the "right" minority, what could possibly go wrong in the future...
Quote from: Trinculoisdead on December 18, 2021, 02:17:34 AM
Well yes of course. If you look at, for example, the cancerous OSR discord server, the number of pronoun-bearing, marxist-loving, civilization-dismantlers are a teeny tiny portion of the hundreds of users. The cancer is virulent, but relatively small.
But, as cancers do, this one grows stronger over time. Specifically, it tightens its hold on the identity of the server by periodically chopping off the most obvious opponents to its ideas.
Which is why you need strong mods who agree with your rules. Rule 1 you have to be aproved to join the discord (anyone with pronouns/mental illness haircuts/commie shitin their profile gets rejected). Rule 2 You have to fill a questionair to join (put several trigering questions/questions designed to make them show their true colors) use this to separate the rabble. Rule 3 ZERO real world politics, first offense gets a week suspension, second offense gets you banned for a month, third offesne gets youy permabanned.
The server in question had a bot that would list your pronouns for you. :P
Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 18, 2021, 02:44:27 PM
Quote from: Trinculoisdead on December 18, 2021, 02:17:34 AM
Well yes of course. If you look at, for example, the cancerous OSR discord server, the number of pronoun-bearing, marxist-loving, civilization-dismantlers are a teeny tiny portion of the hundreds of users. The cancer is virulent, but relatively small.
But, as cancers do, this one grows stronger over time. Specifically, it tightens its hold on the identity of the server by periodically chopping off the most obvious opponents to its ideas.
Which is why you need strong mods who agree with your rules. Rule 1 you have to be aproved to join the discord (anyone with pronouns/mental illness haircuts/commie shitin their profile gets rejected). Rule 2 You have to fill a questionair to join (put several trigering questions/questions designed to make them show their true colors) use this to separate the rabble. Rule 3 ZERO real world politics, first offense gets a week suspension, second offense gets you banned for a month, third offesne gets youy permabanned.
Remind us all again how you despise authoritarian measures...
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 18, 2021, 05:17:11 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 18, 2021, 02:44:27 PM
Quote from: Trinculoisdead on December 18, 2021, 02:17:34 AM
Well yes of course. If you look at, for example, the cancerous OSR discord server, the number of pronoun-bearing, marxist-loving, civilization-dismantlers are a teeny tiny portion of the hundreds of users. The cancer is virulent, but relatively small.
But, as cancers do, this one grows stronger over time. Specifically, it tightens its hold on the identity of the server by periodically chopping off the most obvious opponents to its ideas.
Which is why you need strong mods who agree with your rules. Rule 1 you have to be aproved to join the discord (anyone with pronouns/mental illness haircuts/commie shitin their profile gets rejected). Rule 2 You have to fill a questionair to join (put several trigering questions/questions designed to make them show their true colors) use this to separate the rabble. Rule 3 ZERO real world politics, first offense gets a week suspension, second offense gets you banned for a month, third offesne gets youy permabanned.
Remind us all again how you despise authoritarian measures...
Remind us how you don't. We'll worry about consistency once you worry about not being a garbage human.
P.S. Moderating a voluntary agreed upon code of conduct somehow equals authoritarianism? I take it back; try not being a buffoon first...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 18, 2021, 08:32:39 PMRemind us how you don't. We'll worry about consistency once you worry about not being a garbage human.
P.S. Moderating a voluntary agreed upon code of conduct somehow equals authoritarianism? I take it back; try not being a buffoon first...
Its a legitimate point. Twitter is voluntary as well. If you need to stack the deck to defend your ideas, your ideas suck.
And Im anti SJW
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 18, 2021, 08:49:02 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 18, 2021, 08:32:39 PMRemind us how you don't. We'll worry about consistency once you worry about not being a garbage human.
P.S. Moderating a voluntary agreed upon code of conduct somehow equals authoritarianism? I take it back; try not being a buffoon first...
Its a legitimate point. Twitter is voluntary as well. If you need to stack the deck to defend your ideas, your ideas suck.
And Im anti SJW
Hardly. You are, like Happyderp, someone who spends more time sniping from the sidelines than actually engaging with ideas (unless you think you have a "gotcha" moment). Honestly, as much as you've agreed with Happyderp lately, Pundit ought to check your IP addresses. Wake me when you have something worthwhile to say...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 18, 2021, 09:27:56 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 18, 2021, 08:49:02 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 18, 2021, 08:32:39 PMRemind us how you don't. We'll worry about consistency once you worry about not being a garbage human.
P.S. Moderating a voluntary agreed upon code of conduct somehow equals authoritarianism? I take it back; try not being a buffoon first...
Its a legitimate point. Twitter is voluntary as well. If you need to stack the deck to defend your ideas, your ideas suck.
And Im anti SJW
Hardly. You are, like Happyderp, someone who spends more time sniping from the sidelines than actually engaging with ideas (unless you think you have a "gotcha" moment). Honestly, as much as you've agreed with Happyderp lately, Pundit ought to check your IP addresses. Wake me when you have something worthwhile to say...
I disagree with both of them regularly, but if you believe that you're an idiot.
Quote from: Pat on December 18, 2021, 10:18:06 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 18, 2021, 09:27:56 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 18, 2021, 08:49:02 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 18, 2021, 08:32:39 PMRemind us how you don't. We'll worry about consistency once you worry about not being a garbage human.
P.S. Moderating a voluntary agreed upon code of conduct somehow equals authoritarianism? I take it back; try not being a buffoon first...
Its a legitimate point. Twitter is voluntary as well. If you need to stack the deck to defend your ideas, your ideas suck.
And Im anti SJW
Hardly. You are, like Happyderp, someone who spends more time sniping from the sidelines than actually engaging with ideas (unless you think you have a "gotcha" moment). Honestly, as much as you've agreed with Happyderp lately, Pundit ought to check your IP addresses. Wake me when you have something worthwhile to say...
I disagree with both of them regularly, but if you believe that you're an idiot.
Oh, I don't think they are sock puppets. But when you regularly agree with HD, you should definitely check your (lack of) thinking...
I believe in free speech and an equal playing field. In the spirit of the 1st amendment, not just the law. If Happydaze said air was good, that doesn't mean we should all suffocate out of spite.
Yeah you don't need all those steps to ensure a fair and good forum. Just "No politics" can work, as in a place like RPGPub.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 18, 2021, 10:45:46 PM
I believe in free speech and an equal playing field. In the spirit of the 1st amendment, not just the law. If Happydaze said air was good, that doesn't mean we should all suffocate out of spite.
The problem with that is the left will invade and implement their own rules that would turn you a "fascist" or some other leftist slur.
You have to stamp them out or they will try to turn it into their place sort of like Tyranids.
Quote from: JohnnyTurbo on December 19, 2021, 01:26:34 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 18, 2021, 10:45:46 PM
I believe in free speech and an equal playing field. In the spirit of the 1st amendment, not just the law. If Happydaze said air was good, that doesn't mean we should all suffocate out of spite.
The problem with that is the left will invade and implement their own rules that would turn you a "fascist" or some other leftist slur.
You have to stamp them out or they will try to turn it into their place sort of like Tyranids.
Try having better ideas of your own that can stand on their own and then stop living in fear. If you instead endorse the kinds of idiotic actions some here propose, you're doing their work for them by making it all to easy for others to see you as a villain.
Quote from: Trinculoisdead on December 19, 2021, 02:34:25 AM
Yeah you don't need all those steps to ensure a fair and good forum. Just "No politics" can work, as in a place like RPGPub.
The insistence that everything is political is one of the key factors behind the decline of online and now offline discourse.
Quote from: Pat on December 19, 2021, 02:07:10 PM
Quote from: Trinculoisdead on December 19, 2021, 02:34:25 AM
Yeah you don't need all those steps to ensure a fair and good forum. Just "No politics" can work, as in a place like RPGPub.
The insistence that everything is political is one of the key factors behind the decline of online and now offline discourse.
This is very true. Fortunately, the statement that "everything is political" is covered by the No Politics rule. ;)
Quote from: Trinculoisdead on December 19, 2021, 02:13:06 PM
Quote from: Pat on December 19, 2021, 02:07:10 PM
Quote from: Trinculoisdead on December 19, 2021, 02:34:25 AM
Yeah you don't need all those steps to ensure a fair and good forum. Just "No politics" can work, as in a place like RPGPub.
The insistence that everything is political is one of the key factors behind the decline of online and now offline discourse.
This is very true. Fortunately, the statement that "everything is political" is covered by the No Politics rule. ;)
You're oppressing me! REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
Quote from: Pat on December 19, 2021, 02:07:10 PM
Quote from: Trinculoisdead on December 19, 2021, 02:34:25 AM
Yeah you don't need all those steps to ensure a fair and good forum. Just "No politics" can work, as in a place like RPGPub.
The insistence that everything is political is one of the key factors behind the decline of online and now offline discourse.
This is very true.
Quote from: JohnnyTurbo on December 19, 2021, 01:26:34 PMThe problem with that is the left will invade and implement their own rules that would turn you a "fascist" or some other leftist slur.
That happens because the mods become more leftist over time. 'Stamping them out' doesn't help because progressives will be disengenous given the requirement, and will sneak in and turn the controls in their favor.
Progressives do not dominate free speech platforms. They dominate protected ones. If you cannot defend a free speech platform, you will not defend a protected one, or it will be so insular it will just be a impotent echo chamber.
Id say most people cannot still defuse or have developed the language for countering progressive dialectics. You do not develop those in a echo chamber.
Quote from: Pat on December 19, 2021, 02:07:10 PMThe insistence that everything is political is one of the key factors behind the decline of online and now offline discourse.
This is one of those examples of upreparedness. Everything is political, everything is just not MEANINGFULLY political. Like there is cianide in the air, just not in meaningful quantities.
The SJW language trick, is using technically correct language to raise attention to insignificant issues and then hide behind language games.
QuoteThat happens because the mods become more leftist over time. 'Stamping them out' doesn't help because progressives will be disengenous given the requirement, and will sneak in and turn the controls in their favor.
Progressives do not dominate free speech platforms. They dominate protected ones. If you cannot defend a free speech platform, you will not defend a protected one, or it will be so insular it will just be a impotent echo chamber.
As a member of many conservative groups and discords I clearly see it's possible to do. Is there risk of echo-chamberism... sure.
But the point it what is your purpose. Do you wanna place to talk about RPGs without being peskered by leftists, or do you want wage open war against them.
Quote
This is one of those examples of upreparedness. Everything is political, everything is just not MEANINGFULLY political. Like there is cianide in the air, just not in meaningful quantities.
The SJW language trick, is using technically correct language to raise attention to insignificant issues and then hide behind language games.
And also - not everything is political - as political move in real life. You can play fictional policies without much care about real ones. Left radicals will hate is, as for them culture is mainly political weapon.
Quote from: Wrath of God on December 19, 2021, 06:32:45 PMBut the point it what is your purpose.
Have good conversations with smart people, left or right, and have have my opinions challenged, as well as challenge other opinions. And I can't get that where a ideological purity test is demanded.
I was accused of possibly being a sockpuppet purely for being anti-authoritarian and agreeing that the logic of 'voluntary platform controls cannot be authoritarian' are the same arguments used by facebook and twitter. If you believe you cannot be wrong, or your opposition cannot be good, then you are stuck in a purity cycle.
QuoteAnd also - not everything is political - as political move in real life.
I disagree with SJW principles, but one must engage with and understand them to refute them as opposed to just rebuff them.
If the realm of imaginary could not convey ideas, and be used to mold them in the political sphere, then commies wouldn't have sent they money they did to Hollywood.
"Not everything needs to be part of a collectivist hive mind" is a political statement counter towards 'All entertainment must serve the revolution'. So embrace your individualism and your stance and tell commies then collectivist horseshit sucks, not that you don't have an opinion.
Quote from: Zelen on July 27, 2021, 10:44:48 PM
Loot crates are definitely gambling and must be regulated. Pitting the willpower of your 6yo child/brother/cousin against the psychological manipulations of multi-billion dollar global corporations is not at all appropriate. Moreover, it's just made games a hell of a lot more shitty.
Microtransactions are a shady business practice that deserve a lot more scrutiny. It gets wrapped up in the challenge of "Software as a service" vs. ownership of product you've purchased question. Which in simpler terms is a question of whether corporations should hold power, or should people who purchase products hold power.
Star Trek online really gouges the players for every dime they can.
one tier 6 starship? 30$, alot of the microtransaction stuff is in the 20-30$ range.
TOS instant advance to max level, +36 inventory slots, +12 bank slots, +6 bridge officer slots, +2 ship slots, and a t6 ship with compliment of bridge officers? 120$
pack with 9 t6 ships and 3 ship upgrade modules? 150$
pack with 4 t6 ships, 2 free shop tokens for ships, 11 keys, a flaming targ combat pet and some other incidentals? 250$
Thats not even getting to the drop boxes with odds approaching 1 in 2000 of getting a t6 ship.
Neverwinter is not quite that bad. But only because its an afterthought to STO now.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 19, 2021, 07:06:48 PM
I disagree with SJW principles, but one must engage with and understand them to refute them as opposed to just rebuff them.
If the realm of imaginary could not convey ideas, and be used to mold them in the political sphere, then commies wouldn't have sent they money they did to Hollywood.
Problem is you can not engage with a cultist. And this is very much a cult.
Quote from: Omega on December 21, 2021, 12:17:09 PMProblem is you can not engage with a cultist. And this is very much a cult.
They will however very much engage with you. Turning away from them just leave syou on the defensive.
I think having both open places and safe spaces is generally good idea from tactical perspective.
And then I do not believe in free speech so I have 0 problem with silencing my enemies, especially in place I control.
Making explictly anti-woke and anti-left server is perfectly fine idea.
Quote from: Wrath of God on December 21, 2021, 06:48:22 PMAnd then I do not believe in free speech
Which to me make you not a person with principles I respect.