Greetings!

I have heard for years about how uber the wizards are--and other spellcasters--and how weak and feeble the Warrior classes are. In my own campaigns, I have a Witch Hunter class that can eat spellcasters alive fast. Beyond that, I created numerous feats, special abilities, and a diversity of weapons, equipment, and other items that warrior types can easily access and use against Wizards. Gorgon Arrows, Spider-Web Javelins, Wasp-Head Arrows, Slime Nets, Sack of Swarming Doom, all kinds of things. Tools that slow, interrupt, blind, and cripple Wizards. A Warrior only needs a round or two in the Wizard's face to plunge their mighty blade deep into the Wizard's chest, and they are fucking done!

In mythology, Beowulf, Achilles, Odysseus, the Knights of the Round Table, the Slavic Bogatyr--they all heroically overcame wizards and witches. Solomon Kane, various Witch Hunters in medieval stories, as well of course as figures such as Conan. Some stories even depict wizards and witches living in fear of the wrath coming for them. They know the glorious champions are going to stomp them into mush! You have to bring that deep fear back. That's why witches and wizards NEED huge fortresses and armies of monsters and minions to protect them. Lone champions, or small teams of such mighty heroes, are always a serious threat! Let alone a savage army led by a great champion, marching to bring the witch or wizard to the fire!

In my campaigns, Wizards and Witches are popular, and a powerful class to embrace for any player, but as a DM, you have to provide other players, NPC's, and just as importantly--the world at large--with powerful tools in which to bring the spellcasters like witches and wizards down to fucking earth. Forget what the books butter their spellcasting asses with. Cut that shit out, nerf the hell out of it, and devote some serious time and creativity to providing the warriors with the tools to absolutely DOMINATE!!!!

Achilles wouldn't bat an eye at facing a witch or a wizard. The Witch would try and cast a spell--boom! Achilles nails her with a crippling spear strike. She staggers from the blow, and, without her minions to protect her, Achilles is on her like a pouncing lion, plunging his sword into her, and finishing her! The Witch is fucking done. Lightning quick, savage, crippling damage. The Warrior must be like a mighty lion, faster than a witch's heartbeat. Wizards and such need to FEAR WARRIORS!!!

Not laugh at them smugly, like in the standard rules.

So, that's what I have done. Classes, feats, special abilities, weapons, items, gear, alchemical stuff, blessings from the Church, Holy Items, whatever. Bring the spellcasters dwn to earth, make them live in FEAR of Warriors, and your campaigns will be much better for it, for everyone, but especially Warriors. In mythology, Warriors are not weak, helpless cucks, and I keep them doing just fine in my campaigns.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Another way is to break out the time to cast spells. The more powerful, the longer to cast. Hours long.
"Through Sunken Lands" handles this well I think.

Between needing spell components that you actually have to go find somewhere, besides a store, and having actual casting times not just finger snaps. magic is not over powering.

As I stated in the other thread, 5E has (wisely) given the martial classes the extra attack ability to help bring them to parity.

Changing spellcasting is a bit more serious, as the tradeoff for arcane spells is that you have very crappy combat ability and equipment (this came up back in the 80's, as people pointed out that even if you strap the wizard into plate armor and give him a sword, his pathetic to-hit and hit dice means he'll still get stomped).

In my d20-based system, I've set it up so that most spells require at least one round to prepare and 1 round to cast.  A caster can't move once the spell prep starts but can move/prep in one action then cast/move in the next.  That intermediate space between rounds is when they can get whacked and lose the prep.  It's not losing the slot but it makes the spell take even longer.  Casters have a way to speed it up for a small number of key spells, but those options can get used up during a fight too. 

Then fighter types get multiple attacks about the time casters get some solid spells.  They have a shot at multiple attacks from level 1, though it isn't entirely reliable.  It pretty much makes casting in melee possible but not very productive and only done in desperation.

You make Wizards getting stomped sound like a bad thing.
The bastards would rule the world if you let them.

Maybe, but there is a mechanical game balance issue. I'm just not sure how to address it that doesn't spectacularly fuck things up further.

In 1E/2E it balanced out as magic-users had fewer spells per day, fewer weapon options, and no metamagic or item creation feats. I'm inclined to strip the metamagic feats away as a starting point. I'd allow magic-users to craft non-permanent items -- wands, scrolls, and potions -- but not permanent ones, not until higher levels.

Assuming games in the lineage of D&D...

I think you have the exact problem in your statement.  Wizards are squishy, and they can't cover every base.  If you can get to a wizard, you can stab them, even if you need to invest in an adamantine weapon to defeat their signature Stoneskin spell, or perhaps an inhaled irritant poison to send an invisible wizard sneezing and coughing everywhere, and so on.

If you get to them.

Once wizards hit level 5 spells, then get get tools like, for example, Overland Flight.  That means that unless you know a wizard's schedule, they will be aerial when you meet them, and your sword is going to look very silly when they just fly out of melee range.

And they've got Teleport.  And that's the point where you've lost, more or less.  A wizard with Teleport is not in danger from mundane threats unless they are very, very stealthy, or unless you can meet the wizard in a place where they need to defend something more valuable than their own life.  When you march your grand army of witchfinders over the horizon, the wizard finds another horizon to hide behind.  And the great thing is that the more tools there are to bind and delay wizards, the more sure it is that when you come to the tower, you will have your own martial ass held up in those same alchemical tricks and traps while the wizard makes their escape.

And level 5 spells are also where options like Dream and Nightmare and Sending and Lesser Planar Binding come into play, with the traditional Guards and Wards just coming up.  And that's where things go really sideways for the heroes.  A properly prepared wizard will have contingencies, beyond the actual Contingency spell.  A simple, nasty contingency is Dominate Person, a make-up kit, and an almost-discharged wand.  You keep a body double on hand continually Dominated, with mundane disguise on to make them look like you, and when you get your Alarm spells ringing, you shovel your notes and gear into your extradimensional storage, drop a Clairvoyance in your prepared fake throne room, and send your proxy to engage the foes.  They win, they get some treasure...and when they leave, you scour the room for drops of their blood or other residue, track them with Scrying, and quietly send in a babau to slit their throats when they're out on the road two weeks hence to get your wand back.

Armies in general are just a bad idea, if you're fighting a wizard.  Most of them will be low-level, meaning that the wizard can tag them with Scrying, or just send some nasty possessing fiends after them.  Or use much simpler tactics of listening in on your lieutenant reminiscing about his family back in Holden village, then quietly teleporting to Holden, kidnapping them, and letting the lieutenant know via a Dream spell what will happen if they continue further in their crusade.  And that's the quiet version.  The loud version is finding out what lands you own that give you the wealth and support to muster that army, going to those lands, and doing on purpose what most wizards end up doing accidentally when left to experiment with undead, fiends, and self-sustaining evocations, and then just lying low for however long it takes for your army to run out of supplies, support, and morale.

Being a high-level wizard means knowing how the stories go, and subverting them. It means having access to an entire library of tactics which a lower-level or highly-martial party simply does not have defenses against.  As a GM, it means that you need to moderate your wizards and not go full-tactical with them, because if they did, there wouldn't be a story, or at least, there wouldn't be a story that you can tell episodically from the perspective of the witch-hunter.

Fighting an enemy that can flee across hundreds of miles in seconds, that can turn invisible, fly, and spy on you from leagues away, that can steal the will of your followers and call fiends and elementals of all descriptions, and one with, by definition, the intellectual acumen to make use of these tools, should be a campaign-level event for someone who needs to be in the same room to threaten them.  You need to learn what makes that particular wizard tick, what they will and won't do to protect their own life, what blind spots they might have, and what allies they can call on.  And you need to do this knowing that the first time you seriously and openly engage the wizard, you make stopping you their highest priority.  And you need to do this knowing if you get any of those facts wrong, then it is very likely the low-level people closest to you that will be the first target of the wizard, out of practicality if not cruelty on the wizard's part.

This sounds suspiciously like someone searching for "game balance."

Game balance is about ensuring that nobody stands out, that nobody has to use their wits to overcome their natural disadvantages, and that people who complain and whinge are rewarded. Game balance is for Social Justice Warriors.

I thought better of you.

is this like the reverse of that comic where some nerd feels bullied by a jock so he takes it out in his D&D game or something.

1E and 2E also limited the magic-user's capability to pull rabbits out of their hat for every occasion with a hard cap on spells a magic-user could learn. Granted, at Int 17-18, this was limited (as you could learn up to 14 and 18 spells per level) and of course at 19+ it went out the window. Still, very few PCs were going to have 19 Intelligence or better.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 29, 2021, 09:59:23 PM
Still, very few PCs were going to have 19 Intelligence or better.

Please, IME, when players are rolling 3d6 straight-up, they generate a 19 about 50% of the time. Unless someone is watching them roll...

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 29, 2021, 10:04:14 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 29, 2021, 09:59:23 PM
Still, very few PCs were going to have 19 Intelligence or better.

Please, IME, when players are rolling 3d6 straight-up, they generate a 19 about 50% of the time. Unless someone is watching them roll...

LOL wut?

He's saying you're all fuckin cheaters

Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 29, 2021, 09:59:23 PM
1E and 2E also limited the magic-user's capability to pull rabbits out of their hat for every occasion with a hard cap on spells a magic-user could learn.

I always liked the idea behind that rule, but yes, there were too many exceptions.

Here's a quick house rule: Magic-users have a 50% chance to fail to learn any particular spell, and they can learn 4 spells/level. Period. That means fireball isn't guaranteed, and you have some hard choices to make. Do you leave a slot open in the hopes you'll find a great new spell? I'd also allow them to use higher level spell slots, so even if you already know 4 3rd level spells, you could still pickup fireball as a 4th level spell.

Restricting # of spells known is probably the best way to keep old school mages in check. The 2e generalist mage spell list was a mistake.

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 29, 2021, 10:04:14 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 29, 2021, 09:59:23 PM
Still, very few PCs were going to have 19 Intelligence or better.

Please, IME, when players are rolling 3d6 straight-up, they generate a 19 about 50% of the time. Unless someone is watching them roll...

I find hammers are a good solution. Dice or fingers, your pick.