The other thing I was thinking, is in an historic setting, it may well be that a PC/NPC that is otherwise a good-guy could well be sexist or even racist to a degree that isn't acceptable nowdays, just because it was the norm of the period.

Fighting against such prejudices can be as an interesting and rewarding conflict as fighting an ogre.

My group generally uses all the tools at our disposal for story and roleplay. This includes the less pleasant aspects of humanity. For example, in our Shadowrun group, the ork isn't widely trusted within the group to do anything involving brains, despite the fact that he's proven himself time and again to be intelligent. The woman in the group is often talked down to by the male leader, using lots of condescending terms. And this is just within the group. Nevermind the fact that the aforementioned ork PC is often pulled over by police, even brutalized, for "being an ork in a 60 kph zone", the woman gets leered at by everyone, half the group is constantly skirting a sexual harrassment suit, and there's more sodomy inferred in our games than a prison movie.

And you should see what elf ears sell for on the black market.

Quote from: BagpussThe other thing I was thinking, is in an historic setting, it may well be that a PC/NPC that is otherwise a good-guy could well be sexist or even racist to a degree that isn't acceptable nowdays, just because it was the norm of the period.

Fighting against such prejudices can be as an interesting and rewarding conflict as fighting an ogre.

I have always found it so. In a racist culture, such as the early 20th century US, my players are going to find both sympathetic and non-sympathetic racists. and both nice and nasty non-racists. Moving against such internalized and deeply embedded cultural prohibitions is always difficult, and to me heroic. Usually, though, an otherwise decent person in such a setting tends to manifest this cultural racism in a casual or thoughtless manner as opposed to joining the KKK and organizing lynchings.

-clash

Quote from: BagpussThe other thing I was thinking, is in an historic setting, it may well be that a PC/NPC that is otherwise a good-guy could well be sexist or even racist to a degree that isn't acceptable nowdays, just because it was the norm of the period.

Don't forget that the reason why Achilles was sulking in his tent in the Illiad was that Agamemnon took the captured woman he had given Achilles to rape back because he had to give the woman he had picked for himself to rape back.  He took back the captured woman he gave Achilles so he'd still have a woman to rape and poor Achilles was upset because he didn't have his woman to abuse.

Talk about cultural context... I mean, shit, here I am writing from South America where the very definitions of "Racism", "sexism", and "homophobia" are utterly different than in north america (and it is MORE complex than just saying that latinamericans are racists, sexists, or homophobes; because in reality its that they view the whole thing from a different angle, and have strong but alternative definitions of all three).

How much moreso if you are running an historical game?

I mean shit, if you're running D&D, then its like what Jrients said, above.  If you're doing anything that is meant to emulate history, however, those are three pretty classical issues, that you really can't help but present. I mean shit, homosexuality as we know it is really only a 20th century invention.
The ancient Greeks wouldn't have understood what the fuck you were on about if you were trying to talk about "homosexuality", as it would fit nowhere in their society.

Besides that, racism, sexism or homophobia can be pretty significant issues, if addressed in a meaningful way, that can add depth to a game.
The WRONG way to do this is to either turn it into a sophomoric excuse for people to display this sexist, racist or homophobic attitude with the excuse that they're "just roleplaying it"; or to turn a game into a heavy-handed diatribe from a 21st century context about the "evils of racism" with all the moral profundity of an After-school Special.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditTalk about cultural context... I mean, shit, here I am writing from South America where the very definitions of "Racism", "sexism", and "homophobia" are utterly different than in north america (and it is MORE complex than just saying that latinamericans are racists, sexists, or homophobes; because in reality its that they view the whole thing from a different angle, and have strong but alternative definitions of all three).

  Pffft... dude a few hundred trannies and some mangy old indians does not a completely different definition of racism (or homophobia) make.

Quote from: BagpussDo these issues appear much in your games?

Yeah depending on the game I'm running and if the players are interested. And these traits are not just for the baddies either. One of the most interesting but draining games I ever ran was CoC based in a Southern City in the 1920's with all the pcs playing black characters. Rasicm, Sexism and Homophobia was so overt both from inside and outside the group. Interesting but draining.

Regards,
David R

On Dragon Earth it works like this: There is no racism or sexism in the traditional sense. It's more a matter of in-group versus out-group. You're part of the in-group you're cool. You're part of an out-group you walk careful around the in-group.

Each species has its own races or ethnic groups. Ural and Chukchi orcs for example. Probably the biggest difference is that between Bavarian and Tamil kobolds. Yet those two populations get along famously. (Probably has something to do with the fact they only recently rediscovered each other after some 20,000 years or so.)

Slavery was not unknown back when, but never became as popular as it did in the real world. For one thing, elves and goblins tend to be rather individualistic, and never took to being owned. Both discouraged slave owning in other species as well, with the last official slave holding state, Brazil, freeing theirs in 1855*. Though it is rumored that the Saudi Principalities still have slaves in contravention of their own laws.

Sexism is another matter. By halfling standards gnolls would be considered extremely sexist. Thing is, no is no apreciable sexual dimorphy among halflings, while gnoll males are usually about 3 times as large as gnoll females.

Another thing which plays a role is the fact religion did not develop as it did here. Goblins tend to be rough on their women. The human Israelites, eager to show they were better than the goblin tribes they fought with, determirned to treat their women better. Thus the Dragon Earth Hebrews allowed women priests in The Temple, and had women kings.

Homophobia on the other hand just never developed. Because the concepts of homosexuality and heterosexuality never developed. There are those who prefer men, and those who prefer women. But it is a rare person who has exclusive sexual relations with one gender. A gent may like the ladies a lot, but he is not necessarily adverse to a little cuddle and poke time with his best bud.

Where the young are concerned, the availability of truth magic and telepathy is of great assistance. Helps a lot in determining the truth of claims of consensuality or rape. Acknowledging that very young children can consent to sex has also helped in developing devices and magic aimed at the children.

It has also helped in identifying and apprehending sexual predators. One might see a grown man and his 11 year old boy lover assisting the authorities in the apprehension and arrest of a sexual predator and his grown male victim.

As you can see, it's a very different world than ours. One that could upset a lot of people. But they are comfortable with it, and things tend to work out for the best.

*The United States of America freed the slaves in 1836 as a result of the Dred Scott decision. The plaintiff's lawyers successfully argued that it wasn't right that human beings should be held in involuntary servitude, when such as elves, halflings, goblins, dwarfs, and orcs were not. The state of South Carolina threatened to secede if the Supreme Court of the United States ruled in favor of the plaintiff, but President of the U. S.  Sam Houston moved troops into place and South Carolina calmed down.

I use most of that sort of thing as a plot device.

For example, in a recent campaign I had an evil rapist sorceror. There was a prophecy that his children "will destroy and rule the land." So he thought he'd better have a lot of children! To this end, he changed his appearance to that of someone a particular woman either loved or feared or could be intimidated by; a husband, brother, uncle, next-door neighbour, etc. Then he seduced them or forced them.

So basically this sorceror was evil because he was a serial rapist. He turend out to be the father of one of the PCs, but wouldn't acknowledge her, "I acknowledge no daughters." I figured it's a bit hard to be a rapist without being somewhat sexist... Later when she turned out to be magically-able like him he was willing to acknowledge her - so he was a selfish prick, too!

The PCs really came to hate the guy, and were quite happy to slay him in the end.

I put racism in, in the form of "this little land is our world, and everyone outside it is a savage or a crazy guy." That's the general attitude, but players are free to choose whichever attitudes for their own characters they wish.

Homophobia isn't really an issue for my recent campaigns, because they've either been in ultra-modern settings - in the modern developed West, where people aren't very prejudiced (compared to other cultures and times) - or in pseudo-medieval worlds; and before about 1600, homosexuality wasn't regarded as an identity, but a behaviour. There was sex, love and marriage, and those three didn't always come together in the form of one other person. "Yes, yes, we know you'd rather sleep with boys. Who wouldn't? But you still must marry and produce an heir, and be kind to your wife. Do your duty. And keep the boys somewhere out of your wife's sight, just like Joe does with his three mistresses."

Depends entirely on the game.  All flesh, not so much.  Who cares about racism and such when someone's trying to eat your face?  Exalted tends to be concerned with more epic events, and racism may exist between fictional cultural groups but that's hardly moving.

Buffy on the other hand deals with these issues quite a bit.  It's sort of the central conciet - life's problems cast as mythical threats.  Even the idea of the Slayer is ironic, turning the typical weak feminine stereotypical victim into a champion.  In actual play we've dealt with this a couple of times, people assuming the Slayer is a weak girl.  Homophobia was set up - one character was bi and in the closet with a crush on her 'best friend'.  We had some humorous uncomfortable moments, but the character went other directions and we really never got to explore it.  Racism, only obliquely.  One character has demon blood in him and is going through an identity crisis.  It could be seen as an allusion to racism though it wasn't intended that way, and to be honest the idea that it could be only occurred to me just now.

So it depends on the game, and modern games are going to be much more likely to deal with these problem.

Wow, mythusmage, Dragon Earth sounds fascinating!

I've put a lot of thought into this for my own setting, and have yet to resolve things evenly to a satisfactory answer. Of late, my leaning is towards having different cultures, represented by different geographical locations, have vastly different attitudes about various aspects of culture.

The most sophisticated culture, with the most central location of the "known world," is extremely cosmopolitan, overall, and progressive in attitudes. Nonetheless, it is composed itself of individual groups; whether racial, religious, neighborhood, which may hold variations of their own on matters of sex and gender. Slavery is permitted within tightly described limits, but only through a loophole and against the personal opinion of the City's steward (he is sworn to uphold the law he has received as received, and it says nothing about slavery, a thought abhorrent enough to the founders that they didn't even think to forbid it.

One of the three southern cultures is agricultural, and while homosexuality isn't unknown or forbidden, it is looked on somewhat askance. The second group is divided between a maritime group and an agricultural group. The maritimers are dominated by a dark, sacrificial religious cult, but their gender equality and sexual tolerances are broad; while the agricultural highlanders are extremely egalitarian in legal senses but maintain traditional gender roles in most ways.

The northern cultures are much less tolerant, the first openly sneering and denigrating the issue, and the next absolutely intolerant. The second culture also treats its women as chattel.

I don't like allowing discrimination and irrational prejudice in my setting, but find them after quite a bit of thought to be important for story-telling purposes--they give me the tools to compare and contrast actions, activities and outlooks without having to resort to "good" and "evil"--I want my world to be many shades, not just black and white, as a place in which to play.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalPffft... dude a few hundred trannies and some mangy old indians does not a completely different definition of racism (or homophobia) make.

Buh?

Quote from: mythusmageWhere the young are concerned, the availability of truth magic and telepathy is of great assistance. Helps a lot in determining the truth of claims of consensuality or rape. Acknowledging that very young children can consent to sex has also helped in developing devices and magic aimed at the children.

It has also helped in identifying and apprehending sexual predators. One might see a grown man and his 11 year old boy lover assisting the authorities in the apprehension and arrest of a sexual predator and his grown male victim.

Whu??

Quote from: mythusmageWhere the young are concerned, the availability of truth magic and telepathy is of great assistance. Helps a lot in determining the truth of claims of consensuality or rape. Acknowledging that very young children can consent to sex has also helped in developing devices and magic aimed at the children.

It has also helped in identifying and apprehending sexual predators. One might see a grown man and his 11 year old boy lover assisting the authorities in the apprehension and arrest of a sexual predator and his grown male victim.

You know that other thread where I said I was cool with a game with an agenda I didn't personally agree with?  Yeah, well turns out there are lines and this is WAYYY the fuck over them.  I would walk right the hell out of a "pedophiles are A-O.K. because our psychics say the kids totally like it" game and never come back.

Quote from: mythusmageIt has also helped in identifying and apprehending sexual predators. One might see a grown man and his 11 year old boy lover assisting the authorities in the apprehension and arrest of a sexual predator and his grown male victim.

:wtfsign: