Quote from: wmarshal on April 06, 2021, 02:17:08 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 06, 2021, 12:57:36 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2021, 12:03:29 PMBut as "revenge fantasy"? That's claiming "I live out a fulfilling life and never see my attacker" is a personal revenge fantasy.

Agreed. It's a wish-fulfillment fantasy, not a revenge fantasy.

I think we're missing the forests for the trees. I don't think what's significant is that it's wish-fulfillment fantasy instead of revenge fantasy. It looks like it's racist wish-fulfillment fantasy. If someone wrote an alternate setting where a pagan Europe developed super science because Christianity was averted by having the Jews never return from exile and eventually assimilate like so many other exiled communities, there'd be no doubt this person was writing racist wish-fulfillment. While not a revenge fantasy because the super science European pagans didn't act against the Jews, I award no points for being a racist wish-fulfillment fantasy instead. Even if the author claimed his "real" problem is with Christianity, he chose to rationalize his super science setting by eliminating a population that stood in the way in his mind to the wish-fulfillment fantasy he desired.

Coyote and Crow is basically doing the same thing, except it's especially lazy about it. They could have created a science fantasy setting that that centered on Native Americans without essentially stating "and we're not interacting about or with other races at all...because...reasons." Plenty of settings focus on one part of the world or a specific community, but I can't recall seeing the setting deliberately and completely ignoring the wider world. Shadowrun was initially focused on North America, specifically the Pacific Northwest if I recall correctly. Later they expanded to looking at other areas. It would have been weird if Shadowrun deliberately and purposely decided to ignore that there was a wider world outside the Pacific Northwest. Coyote and Crow seems to be doing so in order to have their fantasy of a pan-Native American mono-ethnic society because even thinking about the Other is bad to them.

Hell, it looks like the setting will basically genocide the idea of a Latino/Hispanic race from ever occurring since those don't start to come about until 1493 as part of the Spanish coming to the Americas.

It's only mono-ethnic if you think all the "natives" were part of the same ethnic group, they weren't.

But I do agree it's racist wish fullfillment, there are tons of ways they could have gone about it without erasing every trace of those evul whites, from the top of my head:

Alternate world where, when the Europenas reach "America" find societies just as advanced as their own, where human sacrifice was banned, maybe even have a society where there's no longer serfs.

Instead of conquest trade ensues since it's the smarter thing to do.

But then again, it would also lead to interbreeding, which goes against their wish fullfillment fantasy since they are also racial supremacists.

Quote from: ScytheSong on April 06, 2021, 02:35:55 PMYeah. You aren't describing Coyote and Crow. As I said earlier, the text plainly says that combat has been mostly small groups and ambushes, not that they have been living in harmony.

Which is completely unlike how tribes interacted historically.

There will always be a new thing to be mad about I guess.

Anyway I'm flipping through the pitch page and I'm guessing the climate disaster is going to lead to a big shrug and a "Figure it out yourself DMs" response when asked where all the colonizers went instead of a "Haha they're all dead fuck you YT" tone. That doesn't seem to mesh with the style they're putting forth.

Quote from: This Guy on April 06, 2021, 02:33:57 PM

Quote from: wmarshal on April 06, 2021, 02:30:44 PM

Quote from: This Guy on April 06, 2021, 02:19:54 PM
What would be the non-genocidal way to imply the non-existence of a Hispanic population because European colonizers never showed up?

I don't know, but I think it's ironic that the Woke community demands representation no matter the setting or lack of rationale, and here the setting (which is very much backed by the Woke) is telling Latinos "Hell no you won't see yourself in this setting, and that's a feature!" The Latinos' identity is just collateral damage in the creators' desire to ignore all things non-Native American.

So like if the designer's implication in the pitch wasn't that this is specifically about Native representation, and if this was presented by some theoretical neutral party as a setting idea they thought of, would the lack of that implication not raise the same flags about the absence of Hispanic characters? They are doomed by authorial intent?

I'm not sure I understand your questions. Can you rephrase?

Are you saying that Latinos in this setting are doomed to non-existence because of the authorial intent for Native representation? By the manner in which this group of authors are centering Native Americans they are eliminating Latinos. The path they've chosen isn't the only way to center Native Americans. They could have done so in ways that still acknowledged the existence of the other races, and had interactions with the other races. They could have placed the setting 100,000 years in the past. They could have posited an alternate history where European didn't dominate the Columbian Exchange and colonize the Americas. The fact that they took this path has me believing this is a racist setting.

It's perhaps not striking some people that way because we don't often encounter racism from a Native American suprematist perspective. We've seen examples of white supremacy so often it's easily recognized (and sometimes thought found when it seems a real stretch to find it as in the redneck valkyrie tangent in another thread) when encountered. There's been enough instances of black supremacy in recent history that most of us can recognize that when it occurs. Native American supremacy is rarely encountered.

Quote
I'm not sure I understand your questions. Can you rephrase?

Are you saying that Latinos in this setting are doomed to non-existence because of the authorial intent for Native representation? By the manner in which this group of authors are centering Native Americans they are eliminating Latinos. The path they've chosen isn't the only way to center Native Americans. They could have done so in ways that still acknowledged the existence of the other races, and had interactions with the other races. They could have placed the setting 100,000 years in the past. They could have posited an alternate history where European didn't dominate the Columbian Exchange and colonize the Americas. The fact that they took this path has me believing this is a racist setting.

It's perhaps not striking some people that way because we don't often encounter racism from a Native American suprematist perspective. We've seen examples of white supremacy so often it's easily recognized (and sometimes thought found when it seems a real stretch to find it as in the redneck valkyrie tangent in another thread) when encountered. There's been enough instances of black supremacy in recent history that most of us can recognize that when it occurs. Native American supremacy is rarely encountered.

Okay so take those alternatives and discard them. They don't exist. Look at the setting with the information you've got. Eliminate the bits where the author says "We're doing this for the sake of Native representation" and other statements of author intentionality. You just have the premise: Climate disaster stops colonization, 700 years pass, by the time it's ended we have a high-tech Native society. Where are the Europeans? Who knows, setting doesn't say.

Is this a racist game without that additional statement of intent, or just some what-if setting?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 06, 2021, 02:37:23 PM

Quote from: wmarshal on April 06, 2021, 02:17:08 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 06, 2021, 12:57:36 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2021, 12:03:29 PMBut as "revenge fantasy"? That's claiming "I live out a fulfilling life and never see my attacker" is a personal revenge fantasy.

Agreed. It's a wish-fulfillment fantasy, not a revenge fantasy.

I think we're missing the forests for the trees. I don't think what's significant is that it's wish-fulfillment fantasy instead of revenge fantasy. It looks like it's racist wish-fulfillment fantasy. If someone wrote an alternate setting where a pagan Europe developed super science because Christianity was averted by having the Jews never return from exile and eventually assimilate like so many other exiled communities, there'd be no doubt this person was writing racist wish-fulfillment. While not a revenge fantasy because the super science European pagans didn't act against the Jews, I award no points for being a racist wish-fulfillment fantasy instead. Even if the author claimed his "real" problem is with Christianity, he chose to rationalize his super science setting by eliminating a population that stood in the way in his mind to the wish-fulfillment fantasy he desired.

Coyote and Crow is basically doing the same thing, except it's especially lazy about it. They could have created a science fantasy setting that that centered on Native Americans without essentially stating "and we're not interacting about or with other races at all...because...reasons." Plenty of settings focus on one part of the world or a specific community, but I can't recall seeing the setting deliberately and completely ignoring the wider world. Shadowrun was initially focused on North America, specifically the Pacific Northwest if I recall correctly. Later they expanded to looking at other areas. It would have been weird if Shadowrun deliberately and purposely decided to ignore that there was a wider world outside the Pacific Northwest. Coyote and Crow seems to be doing so in order to have their fantasy of a pan-Native American mono-ethnic society because even thinking about the Other is bad to them.

Hell, it looks like the setting will basically genocide the idea of a Latino/Hispanic race from ever occurring since those don't start to come about until 1493 as part of the Spanish coming to the Americas.

It's only mono-ethnic if you think all the "natives" were part of the same ethnic group, they weren't.

But I do agree it's racist wish fullfillment, there are tons of ways they could have gone about it without erasing every trace of those evul whites, from the top of my head:

Alternate world where, when the Europenas reach "America" find societies just as advanced as their own, where human sacrifice was banned, maybe even have a society where there's no longer serfs.

Instead of conquest trade ensues since it's the smarter thing to do.

But then again, it would also lead to interbreeding, which goes against their wish fullfillment fantasy since they are also racial supremacists.

Well the idea any kind of pan-ethnic group runs into problems in reality. It doesn't stop people from trying to promote pan-Arabism, pan-Slavism, etc. in this setting they mention there is still conflict, but from what I read it's low level, and not in terms of one Native American civilization trying to destroy another. Even in the book of Judges the different tribes of Israel fought against each other at times, but they were all still Israel and made sure to not destroy each other. I'm thinking the authors here don't really see whole campaigns being based on warfare between the Iroquois and Cherokee in a fight to the death of one or the other.

Quote from: This Guy on April 06, 2021, 02:30:18 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 06, 2021, 02:29:13 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2021, 12:03:29 PM
Superman is wish fulfillment for what if a corn-fed all-American boy was more powerful than anyone in the world.

Except he isn't, because he's Kryptonian. He's not human, and technically is an illegal alien because he was smuggled into America as an infant.

Though that's a whole 'nother discussion, because Superman stories never really reconcile his status an a wholesome American ideal with his fantastic off-world origin. The two aspects exist in parallel, without ever really being integrated.

I know when I read a Superman comic I think to myself "Boy, I wish I had those powers" and then follow that up with setting-specific pedantry to quell the urge.

What does that have to do with anything?

Quote from: Pat on April 06, 2021, 03:07:42 PM
What does that have to do with anything?

All the extra details about him not being really American and shit don't make it not a wish-fulfillment. It's pedantry that doesn't impact the larger wish-fulfillment role.

Quote from: This Guy on April 06, 2021, 02:56:27 PM

Quote
I'm not sure I understand your questions. Can you rephrase?

Are you saying that Latinos in this setting are doomed to non-existence because of the authorial intent for Native representation? By the manner in which this group of authors are centering Native Americans they are eliminating Latinos. The path they've chosen isn't the only way to center Native Americans. They could have done so in ways that still acknowledged the existence of the other races, and had interactions with the other races. They could have placed the setting 100,000 years in the past. They could have posited an alternate history where European didn't dominate the Columbian Exchange and colonize the Americas. The fact that they took this path has me believing this is a racist setting.

It's perhaps not striking some people that way because we don't often encounter racism from a Native American suprematist perspective. We've seen examples of white supremacy so often it's easily recognized (and sometimes thought found when it seems a real stretch to find it as in the redneck valkyrie tangent in another thread) when encountered. There's been enough instances of black supremacy in recent history that most of us can recognize that when it occurs. Native American supremacy is rarely encountered.

Okay so take those alternatives and discard them. They don't exist. Look at the setting with the information you've got. Eliminate the bits where the author says "We're doing this for the sake of Native representation" and other statements of author intentionality. You just have the premise: Climate disaster stops colonization, 700 years pass, by the time it's ended we have a high-tech Native society. Where are the Europeans? Who knows, setting doesn't say.

Is this a racist game without that additional statement of intent, or just some what-if setting?

Yes, it's racist. I think it's just as racist as a European designer creating a pagan super science setting that exists because the author changed history so that the Jews never returned from the Babylonian Exile. One can't just "take those alternatives and discard them." You have to account for what their goal seems to be. It's not merely that they want to have a setting centered on Native Americans. I find nothing wrong with that. There are a gazillion settings centered on faux Europeans. Their goal also seems to be "Imagine something like our current world with super science, and with there being no other people in the world to even think about other than us." They could have achieved a Native American centered setting set in the far past, but that wouldn't require the erasure of the other races. They could have centered the setting in the far future on a different planet, similar to what was done in Star Trek, but that wouldn't require the erasure of other races. Erasure of the other races in an alternate current world/near future, not merely having them being tangential, is a goal of this setting. It's racist, eliminationist wish-fulfillment. At first I was willing to give the setting a small chance it wasn't racist, but the more I examine it the more convinced I am that it is.

Quote from: wmarshal on April 06, 2021, 03:16:55 PM
Yes, it's racist. I think it's just as racist as a European designer creating a pagan super science setting that exists because the author changed history so that the Jews never returned from the Babylonian Exile. One can't just "take those alternatives and discard them." You have to account for what their goal seems to be. It's not merely that they want to have a setting centered on Native Americans. I find nothing wrong with that. There are a gazillion settings centered on faux Europeans. Their goal also seems to be "Imagine something like our current world with super science, and with there being no other people in the world to even think about other than us." They could have achieved a Native American centered setting set in the far past, but that wouldn't require the erasure of the other races. They could have centered the setting in the far future on a different planet, similar to what was done in Star Trek, but that wouldn't require the erasure of other races. Erasure of the other races in an alternate current world/near future, not merely having them being tangential, is a goal of this setting. It's racist, eliminationist wish-fulfillment. At first I was willing to give the setting a small chance it wasn't racist, but the more I examine it the more convinced I am that it is.

Okay but absent the statement of intent how do you define the goal from the text. What elements of the text are you drawing from it to give the impression absent those statements?

Edit: I'm not trying to get into Lit Analysis 101 hours here, I just divine any racist intent from the representation of the author's statements as such, and figure any ethno-futurism can also be framed in neutral terms. Game itself is probably racist but the art looks cool so I'll probably pirate/buy it when it's available anyway, assuming the team doesn't fragment amid the usual RPG project sex-crime accusations.

Quote from: wmarshal on April 06, 2021, 02:17:08 PM
I think we're missing the forests for the trees. I don't think what's significant is that it's wish-fulfillment fantasy instead of revenge fantasy. It looks like it's racist wish-fulfillment fantasy. If someone wrote an alternate setting where a pagan Europe developed super science because Christianity was averted by having the Jews never return from exile and eventually assimilate like so many other exiled communities, there'd be no doubt this person was writing racist wish-fulfillment.

The bolding is mine above. Your assumption is that the advances are because of real-world beliefs about history. i.e. Stan Lee really believed that an African country would develop super-science if only not for white people. But in super-science settings like Wakanda and Makasing (from Coyote & Crow), the premise isn't that they realistically developed super-science. The super-science comes from overtly fictional divergence from the real world, like vibranium and/or space-borne psychic powers.

A better parallel might be a Marvel Universe alternate timeline - what if the ancient Norse inherited technology from the Asgardian aliens who had lead them in the past? Then there could be a viking-themed super-science world with dragon-prowed nuclear aircraft carriers, power-armored berserkers and so forth. Giving vikings *fictional* Asgardian alien technology isn't the same thing as believing that the real-world vikings were genetically superior supermen who lost out only because they were Christianized.

Quote from: This Guy on April 06, 2021, 03:19:25 PM

Quote from: wmarshal on April 06, 2021, 03:16:55 PM
Yes, it's racist. I think it's just as racist as a European designer creating a pagan super science setting that exists because the author changed history so that the Jews never returned from the Babylonian Exile. One can't just "take those alternatives and discard them." You have to account for what their goal seems to be. It's not merely that they want to have a setting centered on Native Americans. I find nothing wrong with that. There are a gazillion settings centered on faux Europeans. Their goal also seems to be "Imagine something like our current world with super science, and with there being no other people in the world to even think about other than us." They could have achieved a Native American centered setting set in the far past, but that wouldn't require the erasure of the other races. They could have centered the setting in the far future on a different planet, similar to what was done in Star Trek, but that wouldn't require the erasure of other races. Erasure of the other races in an alternate current world/near future, not merely having them being tangential, is a goal of this setting. It's racist, eliminationist wish-fulfillment. At first I was willing to give the setting a small chance it wasn't racist, but the more I examine it the more convinced I am that it is.

Okay but absent the statement of intent how do you define the goal from the text. What elements of the text are you drawing from it to give the impression absent those statements?

I believe I can ignore any statements of intent and reach that conclusion. I refer to their stated intent to address what I believe is a false cover.
Create an alternate history that:
1. Isolates a race from contact it had with any other race historically speaking.
2. Have the setting show how much things would be better for the centered race without any interaction with the other races. Not just a change in the interaction, but a complete and total separation.
3. Above points cause the elimination of other races, but that doesn't matter to the authors even though we are living in a time when the zeitgeist is very much "representation matters."

There are no statements on intent I'd need to parse or judge in the above. It's perfectly reasonable for one to conclude the setting is being made with racist goals. One could attempt this setting with any number of races or ethnic groups, and it'd be racist. The setting itself is way "We (could be Chinese, Swedish, whatever) are better with off with a history where our development was not impaired (old school racist would say 'polluted') by contact with other races/outsiders."

Quote from: wmarshal on April 06, 2021, 03:34:52 PM
I believe I can ignore any statements of intent and reach that conclusion. I refer to their stated intent to address what I believe is a false cover.
Create an alternate history that:
1. Isolates a race from contact it had with any other race historically speaking.
2. Have the setting show how much things would be better for the centered race without any interaction with the other races. Not just a change in the interaction, but a complete and total separation.
3. Above points cause the elimination of other races, but that doesn't matter to the authors even though we are living in a time when the zeitgeist is very much "representation matters."

There are no statements on intent I'd need to parse or judge in the above. It's perfectly reasonable for one to conclude the setting is being made with racist goals. One could attempt this setting with any number of races or ethnic groups, and it'd be racist. The setting itself is way "We (could be Chinese, Swedish, whatever) are better with off with a history where our development was not impaired (old school racist would say 'polluted') by contact with other races/outsiders."

Cool thanks for clarifying, I understand your reasoning now. It tracks but I'd personally need more information than we have in the pitch for me to reach the same conclusion.

Quote from: This Guy on April 06, 2021, 03:10:05 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 06, 2021, 03:07:42 PM
What does that have to do with anything?

All the extra details about him not being really American and shit don't make it not a wish-fulfillment. It's pedantry that doesn't impact the larger wish-fulfillment role.

I didn't say it was. I was talking about the all-American part. That was literally the one thing I addressed, I didn't say a thing about wish fulfillment. Not once. You're just displaying your inability to follow a discussion.

Plus, it's not pedantry to talk about the topic of a conversation. It's literally the point.

Quote from: Pat on April 06, 2021, 03:43:04 PM
I didn't say it was. I was talking about the all-American part. That was literally the one thing I addressed, I didn't say a thing about wish fulfillment. Not once. You're just displaying your inability to follow a discussion.

Plus, it's not pedantry to talk about the topic of a conversation. It's literally the point.

Further pedantry, appalling. Who cares about the all-American part next to the powers?