Quote from: Black Vulmea;937181Silly rabbit. Why develop skill when you can invest in cards to stack your deck instead?

A very accurate observation. Them that has the most money to invest in the game stuff wins the game.

Quote from: David Johansen;937193So, the situation here is that five years ago there were two stores that carried games, one was more of a comic shop and one was more of a game shop.  Neither was making much of an effort and I thought I could get the support of the fairly strong Warhammer 40000 community to come and use my tables and have more hours, more table space, no carders trashing the store scenery I'd made because the owner didn't care.

What I didn't know is that somebody else was already planning to open a store and building his own support.  If he'd told me as much straight up I'd have let him and thrown in my support for his venture.  I just wanted a gaming area that had a bathroom available after hours and had enough space that stuff wouldn't get knocked on the floor by people squeezing through because there wasn't enough space.

Anyhow, after a year he opened up and as a result the other stores picked up their game.  They didn't mind me because I didn't have any money to work with and they were established.  Anyhow, it's a very tight market and the competition is so bad that nobody makes money on Magic.  Oh well, I've been going five years and going into the third year of a bad recession in Alberta, I expect my competitors are hurting too.

And, I've made my share of mistakes:
The cheap rent helps but the location stinks.  Of pot from the tenants upstairs mostly.  I out lasted one batch of pot heads and now a new batch has moved in.  If I had the money I'd just move and tell the land lord he's had a full game worth of strikes.

I said some true things about Games Workshop when pressed about why I don't play Warhammer anymore.  The fact they lost money for a couple of years and turned away from several bad policies as a result proves that I was right but it didn't make me any friends.

I've stocked things I liked and failed to sell them.  I've been honest about the drawbacks of various products rather than selling really difficult kits to unskilled modellers.

I've given too many discounts (usually because I need the cash pretty badly) and people have come to expect them without considering their impact on me.

I've been paralysed by doubt at times and haven't promoted the store like I needed to.  Why spend money on promotion when you expect to give notice and close next month?

And I don't run leagues and tournaments.  Honestly, I hate leagues and tournaments.  I really do.  If I hade people who wanted to run them I'd provide prize support and stuff, but personally it's a toxic mentality for the hobby.  Sure an arms race can lead to sales but the competitive nature of the things also drives new players out of the hobby.

Oh well, one thing I've been thinking about a lot is that the hobby has become too expensive for many of my customers.  I'm not sure how to approach it.  But there are guys who might like miniatures games if they could afford them.  This is a combination of factors.  Kings of War is a fast, fun game but it runs best with a couple hundred figures on the table.  That's a barrier to entry.  I'm wondering if Frost Grave or something might serve better.   I do carry Mutant Chronicles Warzone which is in the 30-50 figure range, but the figures are in a resin that's hard to paint and the figures, while neat, are often hard to assemble though their newer releases have moved towards fewer pieces and the game is very detailed and complex.

Oh well, we'll see what the new year brings.  

Ouch; I hear you.

I agree with you about tournament play, but I also agree with Greentongue that it does pack them into the shop. Not the kind of play that I like, but it does sell the merchandise a lot of the time.

Promotion. Always. without it, nobody knows you're there, and you wind up with overheads and no customers. I can sympathize with you on this; been there, done that, stuck with the fifty T-shirts that the customer didn't pay for.

Discounts. Ouch. Have you considered a 'loyalty card' sort of thing, where regular customers can 'earn' discounts with regular purchases?

And your upstairs folk are a killer; they'll drive away a lot of your customers...

Quote from: Greentongue;937222While it may be a toxic mentality, it is also returning traffic.

Maybe there are team games like Zombicide, a cooperative boardgame, that would work?
(plus sell Characters for it/them)

It is all about the social experience. Stuff can be bought online but Face to Face is not yet an option.
While the video chat options have improved a lot over the years. It is still great to get out of the house.
I'm guilty of playing MtG for years and supporting a specific local store just for the face time it gives me once a week.

If Tekumel gaming was more popular, you could have replaceable paper setting models that people could use for games in the store.
Then sell them replacement copies.
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Agreed! All very good points.

As for Tekumel gaming in stores, it's got the problem of not having much of anything to put on the shelf, and in the current 'regulatory environment' that's not likely to change any time soon.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;937266Ouch; I hear you.
stuck with the fifty T-shirts that the customer didn't pay for.

Discounts. Ouch. Have you considered a 'loyalty card' sort of thing, where regular customers can 'earn' discounts with regular purchases?

And your upstairs folk are a killer; they'll drive away a lot of your customers...

At one point there were pole dancing classes downstairs.  Had a number of people suggest I should look at a business model involving a peep hole.  Honestly there was only one time I really wanted one.  There was a loud crash and a lot of laughing.  I bet it was a badly failed leaping mount.

The problem with discounts is that everyone else is offering them and everyone expects them as a result.  Especially with the low Canadian dollar this last year.  Everything jumping 50% is brutal and right now people just don't have money for toys.  One of the reasons I want to do casting is it lets me get a larger profit margin on something while selling it for less.  I also have this fantasy about doing an Arcane Confabulation boxed set with a wooden box, foam padding, and miniatures.  Essentially using separate heads and hands to increase variety while keeping the number of moulds down.

Have you ever worked in screen printing?  I've been doing it as a day job for 27 years.  I've considered setting up to do it myself a few times but don't really enjoy it enough to want to.

I may actually have players that would go for Tekumal.  Is the Jeff Dee Bethorm thing a fully playable game?

Quote from: David Johansen;937272I may actually have players that would go for Tekumal.  Is the Jeff Dee Bethorm thing a fully playable game?

Yes, and I like it.
Can't tell if it would be a good investment for your store, but I have been playing with it for a while now  (after I got bored of translating spells on the fly to my homebrew). If it is about running it, though, you might want to give it a shot.

chirine,
I know that the High Calligraphy involved touch and more.
What about other skills?
Things like Inca Knots that the players may find arcane but the characters would understand?
Did you encounter these type of things.
Seems like it would give a nice feel of alienness and widen the separation between players and out of character knowledge.
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Quote from: David Johansen;937272At one point there were pole dancing classes downstairs.  Had a number of people suggest I should look at a business model involving a peep hole.  Honestly there was only one time I really wanted one.  There was a loud crash and a lot of laughing.  I bet it was a badly failed leaping mount.

The problem with discounts is that everyone else is offering them and everyone expects them as a result.  Especially with the low Canadian dollar this last year.  Everything jumping 50% is brutal and right now people just don't have money for toys.  One of the reasons I want to do casting is it lets me get a larger profit margin on something while selling it for less.  I also have this fantasy about doing an Arcane Confabulation boxed set with a wooden box, foam padding, and miniatures.  Essentially using separate heads and hands to increase variety while keeping the number of moulds down.

Have you ever worked in screen printing?  I've been doing it as a day job for 27 years.  I've considered setting up to do it myself a few times but don't really enjoy it enough to want to.

I may actually have players that would go for Tekumal.  Is the Jeff Dee Bethorm thing a fully playable game?

Gotcha. You're in one of those retail locations.

That situation with the discounts is bad. Add in the economic factors, and it really will hurt.

Doing the casting may very well help - if you can position yourself as being the 'sole source' for something that will sell, you'll be in a much better position. Are you talking metal casting or resin? The start-up investment in the latter is a lot lower, as I'm sure you know.

Yes. We're set up for short-run stuff here, which is how we got stuck with the fifty T-shirts when the end customer got cold feet. It can look nice, but you are right - it is a lot of hard work.

I think it is, and it's also got some support stuff for it. At this point, it's literally the only viable / playable thing out there for Tekumel - EPT is playable, but there's so little in support stuff due to the past publishing history - so I'd see what kind of terms you could get from Uni Games.

Quote from: AsenRG;937280Yes, and I like it.
Can't tell if it would be a good investment for your store, but I have been playing with it for a while now  (after I got bored of translating spells on the fly to my homebrew). If it is about running it, though, you might want to give it a shot.

Agreed; I'd try it out on the audience before making any big investment.

Quote from: Greentongue;937289chirine,
I know that the High Calligraphy involved touch and more.
What about other skills?
Things like Inca Knots that the players may find arcane but the characters would understand?
Did you encounter these type of things.
Seems like it would give a nice feel of alienness and widen the separation between players and out of character knowledge.
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Yes, we did. A lot of the 'local cultures' have stuff like this; we specifically ran into the quipu, as well as 'talking sticks', 'tally sticks', 'talking stones' and other non-linguistic communications devices. Bascially, they all encode information that a trained reader can decipher, and they do make useful plot points. Add in all the linguistic stuff we'd find - plaques, books, scrolls, wall paintings. murals, inscriptions, etc. - we'd usually be able to get a fair bit of information from our surroundings. Heck, just asking a local was a usual thing for us.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;937327Yes, we did. A lot of the 'local cultures' have stuff like this; we specifically ran into the quipu, as well as 'talking sticks', 'tally sticks', 'talking stones' and other non-linguistic communications devices. Bascially, they all encode information that a trained reader can decipher, and they do make useful plot points. Add in all the linguistic stuff we'd find - plaques, books, scrolls, wall paintings. murals, inscriptions, etc. - we'd usually be able to get a fair bit of information from our surroundings. Heck, just asking a local was a usual thing for us.

Was it that character's with the specific skills could read / use them or was there some "Save vs Understand" roll involved for any character?
As in, did the players have to puzzle them out or just find someone with the skill if their character didn't have it?
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Quote from: chirine ba kal;937317Yes. We're set up for short-run stuff here, which is how we got stuck with the fifty T-shirts when the end customer got cold feet. It can look nice, but you are right - it is a lot of hard work.

I think we'd need a whole new thread to talk shop on that one.  Ever get a guy who comes in twice a year to get 20 shirts and then hovers and calls constantly and acts like he's the most important contract you'll ever have?

Or kids who want to start a clothing line so they copy their favorite skateboard designs and put their tag on them?  Every year we get a couple and my boss swears its the last time.

Or the guy who wants one more shirt of the design you did six months ago and just doesn't get why you didn't save the screen

Quote from: Greentongue;937380Was it that character's with the specific skills could read / use them or was there some "Save vs Understand" roll involved for any character?
As in, did the players have to puzzle them out or just find someone with the skill if their character didn't have it?
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Generally, Phil preferred to let us try to puzzle the thing out, rather then roll against something. In cases where he did let people roll, it was "your INTelligence or under", and he'd very heavily weight the roll as needed. Phil's gaming style was to let us figure things out, and we'd try; if we were totally stumped, we'd look around for somebody who had some idea of how the thing worked. Which suited Phil just fine, as it would usually lead into new adventures - Phil was not very much into mechanics in his personal gaming, and much preferred us to interact with the NPCs. Unfortunately, the downside to this was that it was very hard for 'outsiders' to replicate his game style, and he attempted to address this with S&G's vast compendium (over 900 pages worth) of tables. The net result was not a very good replication of how he actually gamed.

"Bethorm", on the other hand, is a much better simulation of how Phil actually played. Less tables, for one thing, and what looks to me like simpler mechanics.

Trying to replicate Dave Arneson's actual playing style runs into the same issue; of the Big Three, Dave was much more 'improv', and it's very hard to convey that.

Quote from: David Johansen;937386I think we'd need a whole new thread to talk shop on that one.  Ever get a guy who comes in twice a year to get 20 shirts and then hovers and calls constantly and acts like he's the most important contract you'll ever have?

Or kids who want to start a clothing line so they copy their favorite skateboard designs and put their tag on them?  Every year we get a couple and my boss swears its the last time.

Or the guy who wants one more shirt of the design you did six months ago and just doesn't get why you didn't save the screen

Probably. I've had the same situations; the all time over-the-top one was when  guy called me at AGI, wanting to know where his order was, and telling me that unless he got his Tekumel stuff right away, he was going to kill himself. I got the details of his order, and it transpired that he'd mailed it the day before from his home on the East Coast; we hadn't gotten it yet. I told him we'd pack up a duplicate order and send it that day, but also that we did say in all our publications that the customer should allow two weeks for shipping and handling - this was in 1981, remember. Shipped the order, and called his local police and explained the situation and suggested that they do a welfare check on him.

And people wonder why I don't want to be on the retail / commercial / publishing end of gaming... :rolleyes:

Quote from: chirine ba kal;937577Generally, Phil preferred to let us try to puzzle the thing out, rather then roll against something. In cases where he did let people roll, it was "your INTelligence or under", and he'd very heavily weight the roll as needed. Phil's gaming style was to let us figure things out, and we'd try; if we were totally stumped, we'd look around for somebody who had some idea of how the thing worked. Which suited Phil just fine, as it would usually lead into new adventures - Phil was not very much into mechanics in his personal gaming, and much preferred us to interact with the NPCs. Unfortunately, the downside to this was that it was very hard for 'outsiders' to replicate his game style, and he attempted to address this with S&G's vast compendium (over 900 pages worth) of tables. The net result was not a very good replication of how he actually gamed.

"Bethorm", on the other hand, is a much better simulation of how Phil actually played. Less tables, for one thing, and what looks to me like simpler mechanics.

Trying to replicate Dave Arneson's actual playing style runs into the same issue; of the Big Three, Dave was much more 'improv', and it's very hard to convey that.

Definitely simpler mechanics, when it comes to Bethorm:).

When you say the Big Three, Uncle, do you mean Arneson, Gygax and Barker, or Arneson, Gygax and Wesely?

Also, I hear that Arneson treated magic items as gaining in power if you know their history, can you give us an example;)?

Quote from: AsenRG;937580Definitely simpler mechanics, when it comes to Bethorm:).

When you say the Big Three, Uncle, do you mean Arneson, Gygax and Barker, or Arneson, Gygax and Wesely?

Also, I hear that Arneson treated magic items as gaining in power if you know their history, can you give us an example;)?

Yep. Which is why I suggest it to people when they ask about a good RPG for Tekumel.

Dave, Gary, and Phil; pretty much nobody has heard of the good Major, his games, and his contributions to the evolution of RPGs. Which I think is a shame, but then I like Braunsteins...

Well, he liked to add 'juice' to the artifact if you took the time to research the thing; it was a way to reward players for them taking the time to think.

Sure; Chirine's nasty mace. Started out in Blackmoor as a normal steel-headed mace (available from Chris Poor at Arms and Armor, $85) and then regained the +4 +5 stats I'd rolled up for it in Phil's campaign after I gave Dave the whole sordid history of the thing and it's connections to the ancient Dragon Lords.

Arneson, I think in revenge, then sold me the dozen magic elvish bang-sticks and the pair of hand-held bang things. Phil. it had to be said, was not amused.