Tell me your thoughts on Psionics! Did you use them? What was your favorite system to use them if you did?
For me, I loved Dark Sun, and I used the 2nd Edition D&D splat book for powers. I always felt the rules could be done better, however- I seem to remember (maybe incorrectly) that you wanted to roll low to get a good result with your powers, and rolling low in 2nd edition just seemed wrong to me.
If I were to do anything related with psychic powers now, I would probably hack something from BRP or Runequest.
Used them in AD&D.
Didnt exist in BX D&D.
Everything and its brother had it in Dark Sun. And wanted to kill you with it.
Was a bit overblown in 2e and didnt use.
In AD&D psi was fairly rare, and optional. There were some pretty neet psi-themed monsters so if you wanted to include it, there it was. It worked fairly well too. One of my longest lived AD&D fighters had psi. Also about the only one to ever gain it. And just short of the only one I've seen as a player or DM in AD&D. It harkens back to the Deryni novels according to Dragon.
2e though ramped that up massively, building off the old Dragon article introducing the psionic class. To me it seemed excessive compared to AD&Ds more restrained array. But overall it worked. But psi in 2e was so clunky that no one wanted to mess with it. Which made proposing Dark Sun sessions even harder.
I haven't gotten to use psionics in AD&D, though I did get to use psionics a little bit when playing the Carcosa setting usings BECMI.
I have used psionics in 3.5 and 4E.
3.5 is a guilty pleasure of mine, though I would like it better if it were a little more reigned in and more oldschool compatible.
Outside of Dark Sun, I can't recall ever using them in play as a player or DM.
Mongoose Traveller treats them as skills. Easy to use because they're not treated as a separate bolted-on rule set.
I've been surveying various rules for classic mediums and psychics. I want visions and prophecies and psychometry... clairvoyance... speaking with the dead, seeing spirts... but NOT the Scanners stuff with exploding heads and whatnot, not telekinetics. 'Psionics' doesn't seem the proper term for it... and I'd like it to be subtle and less than reliable.
Never really understood their use in fantasy worlds, given the abundance of magic traditions to draw from. In Darksun they make some kind of sense, in most other setting they seem superfluous.
Quote from: Simlasa;849245I've been surveying various rules for classic mediums and psychics. I want visions and prophecies and psychometry... clairvoyance... speaking with the dead, seeing spirts... but NOT the Scanners stuff with exploding heads and whatnot, not telekinetics. 'Psionics' doesn't seem the proper term for it... and I'd like it to be subtle and less than reliable.
Yeah. The most aggressive thing I want to see is some mesmerism.
Psi was cool in Dark Sun.
Largely ignored otherwise.
HATED psionics in AD&D. Never allowed them in my campaigns as DM. If I wanted to use a psionic monster, like a mind flayer, I'd sub in spells approximating the psi powers where I could. But I really liked the psychic system in Rifts, with psi being present just as a matter of course in 25% of humans, and all the psionic RCC's. It was also cool how powerful beings like dragons and demons used both magic and psi. I guess I didn't see the point of having them in a fantasy setting, but in an everything but the kitchen sink sci fi setting, they made a lot more sense. And got a more in depth treatment, IMO.
Quote from: Battle Mad Ronin;849249Never really understood their use in fantasy worlds, given the abundance of magic traditions to draw from.
For the low-powered sort I was imagining I was thinking psychics would be untrained, apart from any tradition... except maybe some hereditary/familial one. Like raw magical talent without knowledge or spells... maybe they sense the arcane but have no real system for understanding it or manipulating it. The old soothsayer in the woods or the youngster who seems to have an uncanny sense of things... talks to ghosts without knowing they're ghosts.
Quote from: Battle Mad Ronin;849249Never really understood their use in fantasy worlds, given the abundance of magic traditions to draw from.
Yep.
I've always wanted to like psionics, but whenever I put even cursory thought into the subject I felt all of its best ideas should really just be merged into magic.
Put it this way: I'm running my current 5e campaigns in the psionic-heavy portion of Eberron. The absence of psionic rules for 5e hasn't mattered one bit. I just give the 'psionic' NPCs a bunch of no-component spell-like abilities based on charms, telepathy, confusion or whatever and they're good to go, no weird extra mechanics necessary.
I liked the balancing factors in the original(Eldritch Wizardry) presentation. Other presentations, such as Metamorphosis Alpha mutants and the Arduin Grimoire's psychic class, came into play.
The 2e AD&D Psionics Handbook looked fairly well thought out, but seemed too much for the rarity of such powers in the games in which I played.
In my experience, the usual case is that psionic gifts are quite extraordinary. The second most common is that they basically are the magic in the milieu , like Kurtz's Deryni, Bradley's Darkover, or (slipping more into frontier) Norton's Witch World.
One might distinguish some effects as being more 'magical' in flavor, and certainly some modes of operation, but I think the main thing is the innate-ability/personal-power aspect of psionics.
I played a psionic character in Rifts (I had quite a lot of fun with that character), and in Morrow Project (where it feels very tacked on, and like the rules were hastily put together compared to the rest of their material).
When I GMed Pathfinder I allowed psionics and they were pretty popular. There are lots of things about psionics, and magic in general that bug me in 3e/PF though, but that's best left for a whole other discussion I think.
Dark Sun, thematically speaking, I think is the only setting in D&D that really has done enough to distinguish psionics from other forms of magic. In all the other settings it just feels like magic by another name, which is fine if less interesting I suppose.
well my group ran a set of games a little on some days where are normal dm didn't show up .
it had a lot of psionics stuffed in it and the lack of magic using party members save my paladin lead to this odd case where the game was very balanced with the way we where playing.
as to flavored ill be honest i like all me gonzo psionic powers partly because my view of psionics is heavily colored be E's otherwise.
if you have never seen E's heres a few youtube vids that will give you the idea.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s05A5tPhqCo
watch this one for about a minute and 1/2 so you see the opening it will give you a good idea of what they can do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ncaus1yUJ4s
Quote from: Battle Mad Ronin;849249Never really understood their use in fantasy worlds, given the abundance of magic traditions to draw from. In Darksun they make some kind of sense, in most other setting they seem superfluous.
Pops up alot in some sword-n-sorcery settings where magic and psionics are about interchangable. Or in planet romance stories like John Carter of Mars. It is also integral to the whole Deryni series. Kurtz even gave them permission to do a race article in Dragon 78.
It seems like psi is more of a Sci fi trope than fantasy, with a few notable exceptions. I used psi as kind of an "evolutionary correction" in Dark Sun. Because most magic was killing the ecosystem, psi developed as a "safe" kind of magic that people could use. Preservers were ultra rare.
Quote from: Patrick;849188Tell me your thoughts on Psionics! Did you use them? What was your favorite system to use them if you did?
For me, I loved Dark Sun, and I used the 2nd Edition D&D splat book for powers. I always felt the rules could be done better, however- I seem to remember (maybe incorrectly) that you wanted to roll low to get a good result with your powers, and rolling low in 2nd edition just seemed wrong to me.
If I were to do anything related with psychic powers now, I would probably hack something from BRP or Runequest.
So much depends on the setting and rules used.
I hated psionics in D&D, especially AD&D. As a Player, if one of the other guys in the party had psionics then you knew that at least once a psionic monster a game would turn up that could TPK us just to keep that one psionic PC's Player happy.
Dark Sun handled it well, because everything had psionics and everything wanted to kill you - it was an even playing field.
There are psionics in the OTU, but I rarely use them. An intelligent Player with psionics can break the
Traveller game very easily. If you consider The Force to be psionics, then
WEG d6 Star Wars handles it well.
I can see it in Lovecraftian horror or supers genres without any problems.
Psionics are very important in one of my homebrew worlds (Arn), all but unknown in the second (Hidden Valley) and there but uncommon in my version of the Judges Guild Wilderlands of High Fantasy. Arn's psionics were originally based on the rules in Eldritch Wizardry -- as that's what was available when I was originally creating Arn. They were modified heavily over the years -- gaining and losing complexity with time. The optional psionics rules in Microlite74 are a "Microlite20-ified" version of the psionics rules I'd use now if I were running an Arn campaign.
Allowed it once in ADnD and wasn't impressed.
Never used it again.
Quote from: Patrick;849320It seems like psi is more of a Sci fi trope than fantasy
Only because the word "magic" isn't in its description.
I love, love, love psionics in fantasy.
...and if you love something and wrote an article about it, you should shamelessly pander and promote it!
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_reviews_info.php?&reviews_id=63993&products_id=94955
...and to further stroke my inflated ego, I shall quote the review of Knockspell 6!
Ouch, My Brain Hurts! is a psionics article for S&W by Robert Lionheart. I think Robert's first line sums my thoughts up pretty well: "Are psionics an unholy heresy or a valuable aspect of old School fantasy roleplaying?" I'm on the fence on it myself, having experimented with it in AD&D 1E and I never found it very satisfying. Robert's system requires PCs to sacrifice XP earned to acquire psychic powers. It's a decent trade off for the additional power the PCs may attain. Being that the powers are limited in the amount of uses per day, they may or not be worth the XP cost, but it may be a viable option depending on the type of campaign you plan on running. It's a long article, and would have been a viable PDF in it's own right.
As people have said, outside of the D&D Dark Sun setting, I don't see the point of it. I prefer it in my supers/sci-fi settings as it's typically less reality altering than magic is supposed to be.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;849370As people have said, outside of the D&D Dark Sun setting, I don't see the point of it. I prefer it in my supers/sci-fi settings as it's typically less reality altering than magic is supposed to be.
That is the point, psi in D&D was originally less reality warping. It was great if you wanted a more natural setting replacing magic with mind powers like in some of the Conan stories where hypnosis, illusions, telepathy or telekinesis pop up as powers of the mind rather than arcane.
Let's put it this way: One day. ONE DAY! I WILL run my long planned AD&D1 campaign Psi-Lords of Greyhawk. One day.
There are settings where I prefer psionic over magic (the long-lost space colony fallen back into pre-industrial barbarism for instance) and there are settings where I prefer magic over psionics (like the average fantasy setting). There are also more than enough settings where I prefer to have no supernatural elements at all (most science fiction). I don't see much use for having both psionics and magic as two paralell features within the same setting. That always seems very redundant.
I think low-key psionics also fit well into Ravenloft--mesmerism, 'second sight', etc. OTOH, it's debatable whether Ravenloft fits well with D&D.
I used them in 1E. 2E and 3E. The best I have seen though has been the Dreamscarred Press work for Pathfinder. Best spell point system I have encountered.
I've never seen a Psionic rule set for D&D that I actually liked (Keeping in mind, I didn't start running D&D until 3e). I really like what has shown up in the 5e playtest though.
I think Psionics work well with specific fantasy settings as opposed to general ones. You can really get that weird prog rock 70's vibe with them in the right places.... But they'd stand out like a sore thumb say in places like Middle Earth.
As for other genres, I use them all the time in science fiction and superhero games, so no biggie there.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;849416I think low-key psionics also fit well into Ravenloft--mesmerism, 'second sight', etc. OTOH, it's debatable whether Ravenloft fits well with D&D.
(I personally think that Ravenloft would work better with Dragon Warrior, but I only have the newer reprint of it, so...) but you know, mesmerism, second sight, vague clairvoyance... That really does fit in my head.
I love the Gothic appeal of Ravenloft. This gives me food for thought.
Always used them in Dark Sun, since it was part of the setting.
In "regular" D&D we kept it pretty rare. Roll for psi if you wanted to try. And there are a few monsters whose schtick is psionics. Mind Flayer is one of the well known examples.
So, regularly in Dark Run, rarely, but not absent in other D&D campaigns.
Psionics as a distinct thing from magic, in fantasy games, only
really make sense to me in a few settings, such as Dark Sun and Eberron, and maybe Ravenloft for the "OMG WTF" factor.
Outside of it, though? Love it. The day I get a chance to play in a Rifts game (ha!) I am
so playing a Mind Melter.
Quote from: Patrick;849188If I were to do anything related with psychic powers now, I would probably hack something from BRP or Runequest.
Luther Arkwright has a psionics system. My first thought was, of course, to use them for a Dark Sun conversion. :)
Used them in my homebrew, decades back. Tried it in GURPS, VERY briefly, but I really don't like the GURPS psionics rules: they seem to encourage the Champions-esque "So, how many weird limitations can I bolt on to this to bring the cost down?" games.
Quote from: The Butcher;850089Luther Arkwright has a psionics system. My first thought was, of course, to use them for a Dark Sun conversion. :)
There are also psychic powers in After the Vampire Wars for BRP, but not having it in hand yet I don't know how they differ from those in the BGB.
Quote from: Orphan81;849964But they'd stand out like a sore thumb say in places like Middle Earth.
I disagree. The most archetypal 'psionic' talents are such things as:
picking up emotions and impressions of thoughts
getting a sense of past or future events associated with a place, item or person
getting a vision of events transpiring elsewhere
great ability to heal others' physical as well as psychic wounds
sensing danger or making "lucky" choices
perceiving entities beyond normal human ken such as ghosts
influencing others' perceptions and feelings
mastery of one's own mind and body, including things normally considered beyond control
All of these seem to me not only in keeping with Middle Earth, but far less likely to stand out as exceptional than many things that are relatively commonplace in the D&D magic system and others like it.
Psionics are hard to pin down as distinct from magic--it depends on cultural background, fictional genre, and pure individual subjectivity. On top of that, there's ambiguity and lack of detail, more so in literature, but even in games, about:
--where do these powers come from?
--how do you get them?
--do they operate through a (pseudo)scientific process?
--do they work dependably or are they mysterious
--how does the user feel when the powers are used (like, you have to engage your emotions; you get tired, etc.)
--what concrete effects do they have?
--how do they differ from "magic" in all the above?
--is there a concept of the supernatural, the divine, the afterlife, or the spirit world in the setting, and if so, how does psi interact with those?
Personally, I used psionics in Eldritch Wizardry but quickly decided they were too sci-fi for the "pure" fantasy I was aiming for. Also, while someone above said the EW mechanics were better than AD&D 1e stuff, I don't remember a difference, and the psi rules struck me as clunky and overpowered, a bad combination of being so rare that you couldn't depend on them but so powerful that if they showed up they would dominate.
Too bad, because some of the psi-flavored monsters really were cool.
Nowadays I could use them or not depending on genre and treatment. Post-apoc science fantasy like Thundarr the Barbarian? Definitely.
Quote from: Phillip;850151All of these seem to me not only in keeping with Middle Earth, but far less likely to stand out as exceptional than many things that are relatively commonplace in the D&D magic system and others like it.
I agree, all of those seem like they'd fit well in fairy tales and anything with witches or seventh-son-of-a-seventh-son type folklore. Just the name, 'psionics' sounds scifi... call it 'second sight' or 'the gift' or 'talents'.
Quote from: Simlasa;850158I agree, all of those seem like they'd fit well in fairy tales and anything with witches or seventh-son-of-a-seventh-son type folklore. Just the name, 'psionics' sounds scifi... call it 'second sight' or 'the gift' or 'talents'.
It
is science-fictional, dating I think only to about the middle of the 20th century. The "psi-" part is like "psychic" and the "-onics" like "electronics" (which was an exciting new field of science and technology at the time).
Quote from: Phillip;850161It is science-fictional, dating I think only to about the middle of the 20th century.
Yeah, all my old issues of Astounding from the '50s are full of articles and stories about 'Psi'.
The word, though, can't be the font of furor. It would be like, "Do you like magic-users, fighting men and clerics? Do you use them?" being a seriously controversial issue just because lots of folks prefer to call them wizards, warriors and priests.
If what's meant is some particular set of rules, then I can understand it. But there have been lots of different sets of rules!
The meaning of the word to me, though, comes from its original SF context. It's what you call magical "mental powers" when you want give them a pseudo-scientific spin. The actual standing of all 'psionics' in science today is roughly on par with astrology, water dowsing and spirit mediumry, but the notion was more acceptably SF in former decades.
The imagined powers themselves are about as "new age" as the stone age.
Quote from: Phillip;850164The word, though, can't be the font of furor. It would be like, "Do you like magic-users, fighting men and clerics? Do you use them?" being a seriously controversial issue just because lots of folks prefer to call them wizards, warriors and priests.
Except all those terms still have a 'fantasy' feel to them... whereas 'psionics' never did to me... at least not mainstream Tolkienesque Eurofantasy. It would be fine in Sword & Planet stuff or wild crossover settings.
Quote from: Phillip;850164The imagined powers themselves are about as "new age" as the stone age.
Yes, that's why I think the name 'psionics' is a problem... but calling it 'mysticism' or somesuch takes the scifi out of it... as does removing some of the more extreme powers... like powerful telekinesis and all the Scanners/Firestarter stuff. Make it unreliable and leave the visions/prophecies open to interpretation.
I really don't think it works so well in class and level games because IMO it shouldn't ever get that wacky powerful... it's an innate, untrained power. Once a 'Mystic' leveled up, like a lot of other things, it crosses over into superheroes and scifi... but that's just my preference for low-powered fantasy showing.
In something like Magic World I might keep it as simple powers that a person could have, but improving them would require actual magical study and formalization into rituals/spells or whatnot. Learning to turn the ability that can sometimes set a piece of paper on fire into a full-fledged fireball attack.
Quote from: Phillip;850151I disagree. The most archetypal 'psionic' talents are such things as:
picking up emotions and impressions of thoughts
getting a sense of past or future events associated with a place, item or person
getting a vision of events transpiring elsewhere
great ability to heal others' physical as well as psychic wounds
sensing danger or making "lucky" choices
perceiving entities beyond normal human ken such as ghosts
influencing others' perceptions and feelings
mastery of one's own mind and body, including things normally considered beyond control
All of these seem to me not only in keeping with Middle Earth, but far less likely to stand out as exceptional than many things that are relatively commonplace in the D&D magic system and others like it.
This argument can be convincingly made, but only for the enumerated things. Powers like psionic blast, psychic crush, and dimension walk are another thing entirely. I would still argue those don't fit the typical "fantasy" milieu very well.
Quote from: IggytheBorg;850170This argument can be convincingly made, but only for the enumerated things. Powers like psionic blast, psychic crush, and dimension walk are another thing entirely. I would still argue those don't fit the typical "fantasy" milieu very well.
I agree... though I'm not sure what 'dimension walk' is... could that be just some sort of astral projection? Call it 'dreamwalk' or something?
If memory serves, it was actual, physical dimensional teleportation of a sort. Kind of reminded me, from the description, of how the royal family of Amber moved through Shadow in the Zelazny novels. A very flashy power.
Quote from: Orphan81;849964But they'd stand out like a sore thumb say in places like Middle Earth.
Telepathy shows up in the books as does agressive mind reading.
Quote from: Omega;850217Telepathy shows up in the books as does agressive mind reading.
True, but it's more of a function of magic then say a hyper evolved brain that can also start telekentically lifting things, give nose bleeds for over exerting themselves and creating explosions by rubbing molecules together.
It's about style in the end. Many psionic feats work fine with magic thrown on them as the trappings of fantasy, it's when you start making it more Scanners that it starts to seem very out of place..
In Eurofantasy, I would reskin the names of psionic powers to sounds more "mystical", but Psionics work fine in most S&S or S&P or weird fantasy.
Quote from: Orphan81;850277True, but it's more of a function of magic...
Where does it say that middle earth mind reading and telepathy are magic? It doesnt. It seems an inherint ability of some races, like elves which are the only ones I recall demonstrating it, and Gandalf, who is effectively a demigod/celestial in disguise.
Bear in mind that some of the inspirations for D&D were books where mind powers either co-existed, or were the only powers, like in the Barsoom series. One of the inspirational reading books listed is "The High Crusade" which is knights vs space aliens, and Hiero's Journey which is a post apoc novel.
i thinks its also worth bringing up the question of where dose stuff like
witch hunter Robin fit in.
after all in Robin its spelled out that it is magic in so meany words but that there is a physiological difference between witchs and norms there are even some very flashy powers like Robins pyrokinesis along side the ability to read emotions or to control stone or make a swarm of insects that drains some ones life or
the ability to touch 2 people and take ones life force and give it to the other to heal them
Quote from: kosmos1214;850566i thinks its also worth bringing up the question of where dose stuff like witch hunter Robin fit in.
At first glance Witch Hunter Robin has me thinking it's all happening on some backwater medieval-tech planet of the 40K universe... Sanctioned Psykers hunting down the unsanctioned and latent psykers for indoctrination or purification. So go with Dark Heresy...
Quote from: Simlasa;850567At first glance Witch Hunter Robin has me thinking it's all happening on some backwater medieval-tech planet of the 40K universe... Sanctioned Psykers hunting down the unsanctioned and latent psykers for indoctrination or purification. So go with Dark Heresy...
and thats part of why i bring it up the seting is modern day (as of 2002) and if you watch it especaly if you read the information in the dvd extras where you can read up on the ring of ogham (a magical alphabet) it be comes pretty clear that its closer to magic then what we think of as psionics while there is defiantly some traces of what people tend to think of as psionics witch is why orbo works (disgusting stuff that it is ) all in all its magic a very very unique take on magic but magic
Quote from: kosmos1214;850573and thats part of why i bring it up the seting is modern day (as of 2002)
Oh... my first glance was very short, looked retro/medieval to me.
Quote from: Simlasa;850576Oh... my first glance was very short, looked retro/medieval to me.
yah at a glance it can look that way but watching it it quickly becomes apparent thats not the case
edit give the opening a look
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsP6EIIcaLY
Quote from: IggytheBorg;850170This argument can be convincingly made, but only for the enumerated things. Powers like psionic blast, psychic crush, and dimension walk are another thing entirely. I would still argue those don't fit the typical "fantasy" milieu very well.
So? It's just the same with such things in "spell list" form!
What the heck is
really the issue here?
Quote from: IggytheBorg;850177If memory serves, it was actual, physical dimensional teleportation of a sort. Kind of reminded me, from the description, of how the royal family of Amber moved through Shadow in the Zelazny novels. A very flashy power.
Like the visitations of heavens and hells of the Buddha, and countless other ancient and medieval saints and sorcerers.
Quote from: Orphan81;850277True, but it's more of a function of magic then say a hyper evolved brain that can also start telekentically lifting things, give nose bleeds for over exerting themselves and creating explosions by rubbing molecules together.
It's about style in the end. Many psionic feats work fine with magic thrown on them as the trappings of fantasy, it's when you start making it more Scanners that it starts to seem very out of place..
Again, how is this arbitrarily okay when it's in a "spell list" write-up? If it's not, then why the double standard of throwing out the baby with the bathwater only with one game system and not the other?
Quote from: Phillip;850678So? It's just the same with such things in "spell list" form!
What the heck is really the issue here?
well its not so much a problem but some people dont like them (psionics) in there
fantasy game and tbh i can fully under stand saying they dont fit in some worlds though i cant wrap my head around the idea that they are to "sci fi" for fantasy and i keep hearing it and for me at least i find it confounding
The magic in Tunnels & Trolls was explicitly stated as having a "psionic" basis (which supposedly justified mages not being hindered by bearing iron). Besides the matter of wizards wearing steel armor (which clerics and elves do in D&D), the other major difference is powering spells with strength points -- which also features in The Fantasy Trip, RuneQuest, DragonQuest, Palladium, RoleMaster, etc., etc..
Quote from: kosmos1214;850763well its not so much a problem but some people dont like them (psionics) in there
fantasy game and tbh i can fully under stand saying they dont fit in some worlds though i cant wrap my head around the idea that they are to "sci fi" for fantasy and i keep hearing it and for me at least i find it confounding
The question is,
what are the "psionics" that some people don't like?
Don't like the word? Simply don't use it! Problem solved.
Unless there's some more substantial referent, I don't see what's worth saying except "quitchabitchin."
Quote from: Phillip;850778The question is, what are the "psionics" that some people don't like?
Don't like the word? Simply don't use it! Problem solved.
Unless there's some more substantial referent, I don't see what's worth saying except "quitchabitchin."
lol seems more or less right on some level
In my own book the distinction between magic and psi was that magic was ambient. Something tapped and stored from outside. The user draws on the external source. Magic use can be learned
Whereas psi was internal. The user is the source. One is born with psi powers, they can not be learned.
Ive seen others flip that around with magic being internal and psi being an external source.
Quote from: Phillip;850680Again, how is this arbitrarily okay when it's in a "spell list" write-up? If it's not, then why the double standard of throwing out the baby with the bathwater only with one game system and not the other?
Because Trappings are what make a setting and differentiate it from others. The modern conception of "Magic" is a fantasy phenomena, it's basic D&D with elves, trolls, fairies and World of Warcraft...
The basic modern concept of Psionics is based more on "science" even if it's a pseudo-science. The point of Psychic Potential is that at least in terms of modern society, it was believed to be 'possible', to the point both the CIA and KGB did extensive research into both.
Psychic power is something that is simply more attached to Science Fiction. From Star Trek and it's lack of magic but acceptance of Psi, to Modern Superheroes which present psychic power as a natural evolution of the brain..
For a lot of people, it's mixing to much science with their fantasy. Like wanting to have realistic evolution in their setting. For some fantasy settings and some people, it seems to work out fine, but for most it doesn't.
I never read any Tolkien, just saw the movies so I can't speak to the literature...but nothing in the movies made me go "Psychic Power" everything seemed more a trapping of magic, whether it was an inherent magical ability or not.
This is interesting because I'm currently design a ninja vs espers setting where psychic/prana powers are the main source of magic in the setting. But this will be a Pathfinder compantible setting with a heavy martial arts emphasis, and utterly unlike a traditional D&D setting. The psychic powers will be an anime/manga esper flavor.
When I run traditional D&D, I don't have them in my settings, as most implementations are SF-ish and dissonant with swords and sorcery fantasy that I like.
Bemusingly the AD&D DMG mentions The Shadow concerning psionic invisibility.
Quote from: Orphan81;850933Psychic power is something that is simply more attached to Science Fiction.
But again, really only in name and explanation/justification. Fantasy is full of characters with special powers that don't really come under current ideas of 'magic'... abilities that come naturally to them without recourse to a Hogwart's or internship with a crazy old man in a tower... doing uncanny things without spells or formulas or elixers or musty tomes of forbidden knowledge.
The thing is, such fantasy characters usually aren't all that powerful. No fireballs or exploding heads.
They read palms or tea leaves or cards or minds, look into crystal balls, find water with dowsing rods, discern truths with pendulums or dice... have prophetic dreams and visions come to them free of asking.
Fairy tales have loads of otherwise ordinary creatures and people who casually exhibit some extraordinary ability or imbue objects with singular powers without being formal witches or magicians.
I don't know of any RPG that captures that feel of omnipresent low-powered magic (because it is magic, but not the book learned spell-casting sort).
Such characters generally have no offensive/defensive powers so I'm guessing they'd be of no interest to the average gamer unless the system allowed such capabilities as additions to standard adventuring professions.
Speaking as a 3e/3.5 player, my thought on Psionics has always been that they are muy bueno. It's a power system that plays and feels very different from the standard Wizard/Cleric power set (at least in 3.5---3e had the problem of the Powers List being a ripoff of the PHB spells), and is actually more intuitive and smooth mechanically.
I like to have Psionics in my campaign as sort of a foreign (usually that's gonna be eastern) fighting style that's making inroads into the setting's mainstream culture. Psionic Warriors will usually have a Yogic feel about them and be all about harnessing internal power/honing focus (similar to the idea of chi/ki espoused by Monks) as opposed to looking to the gods or the power of magic.
e: Also, always had a crush on the iconic Psychic Warrior j/s
http://i.imgur.com/NJSblho.jpg
Of course it's a matter of taste & genre, and perception. Some observations, though...
Quote from: Simlasa;851300They read palms or tea leaves or cards or minds, look into crystal balls, find water with dowsing rods, discern truths with pendulums or dice... have prophetic dreams and visions come to them free of asking.
Note that these generally fall into social categories, i.e. they're "things" that have names and sometimes even arts that are developed. "She's got The Sight," or whatever. "Seventh son of a seventh son." There are folk theories about why people have these powers and where they come from. "He talks to spirits." In fictional settings, psi seems less of a cultural phenomenon and even if people recognize it widely, I think they perceive it more as a natural effect (e.g. of mutation or exposure to N-Rays or something).
QuoteFairy tales have loads of otherwise ordinary creatures and people who casually exhibit some extraordinary ability or imbue objects with singular powers without being formal witches or magicians.
I'm a bit of a loss to think of good, specific examples--particularly ones that haven't been "socially tamed" as I described above.
I love psionics. I love magic.
It's like ice-cream. I can do both flavors simultaneously.
Quote from: tenbones;851610I love psionics. I love magic.
It's like ice-cream. I can do both flavors simultaneously.
For me, unless it's a well designed part of the setting, like Dark Sun, it's like chocolate ice cream and a good steak, they're great apart, even after one another, but not together.
Quote from: Arminius;851425In fictional settings, psi seems less of a cultural phenomenon and even if people recognize it widely, I think they perceive it more as a natural effect (e.g. of mutation or exposure to N-Rays or something).
It depends on the fictional setting... but I do think that in a lot of older fantasy such powers, regardless of how they're called, are still thought of as natural... and magical... natural magic as opposed to learned magic.
QuoteI'm a bit of a loss to think of good, specific examples--particularly ones that haven't been "socially tamed" as I described above.
The one that pops to mind is from The Arabian Nights, 'The Talking Bird, The Singing Tree and The Golden Water'. There are lots of magical elements but none of them seem to involve wizards or spells... or 'psionics'... the magic just exists or shows up in the story as needed.
Brothers give their sister seemingly common items and on the spot claim those items will inform her in the event of their deaths, and they do... a dervish sits at the bottom of a haunted mountain handing out bowls that will guide anyone who throws them, rolling away towards their desire. None of the characters are established as magicians, all the items are ordinary until they're not.
The three spectacular items of the title are magical treasures but naturally occurring ones.
There's no attempt to say why or how the magic happens, it just does... and none of the characters question it, so it ends up feeling like it's just part of nature.
Keep in mind too that what someone calls magic one day, someone else is calling ESP tomorrow.
We have some water diviners in the family and they were called "water witches" and was considered magic. Now-a-days its called ESP.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;851665For me, unless it's a well designed part of the setting, like Dark Sun, it's like chocolate ice cream and a good steak, they're great apart, even after one another, but not together.
Agreed. For my Realms campaign I introduced Psionics as this "tenth" school and yet it did not conform to any of the known "rules" of Magic. I have a Mageocracy based around the various schools - so the advent of a "new" form of Magic was a big deal. It became a huge adventure leading to contact with the Githzerai and eventually led to an interdimensional war with the Githyanki and Illithid. The end result was the explanation for Psionics in my Realms.
So yeah - context is always king.
I am cleaning up Kathy's book collection last night and discover she has the whole Deryni series in hardback.
On a simmilar note I have the Many colored Land series by Julian May. Which pits people with psi powers against elves in the prehistoric past. Should have been a Torg cosm.
Quote from: Omega;851853On a simmilar note I have the Many colored Land series by Julian May. Which pits people with psi powers against elves in the prehistoric past. Should have been a Torg cosm.
Sounds like Lustria in Warhammer... ancient space frogs with weird powers fighting vikings and dark elves riding on dinosaurs.
Wasn't one of the Torg settings prehistoric?
Quote from: Simlasa;851862Sounds like Lustria in Warhammer... ancient space frogs with weird powers fighting vikings and dark elves riding on dinosaurs.
Wasn't one of the Torg settings prehistoric?
In this case people with psi travelling back in time and running into space elves who have even better psi, but refer to it as magic. Toss in some goblins with very powerful illusions, and something even worse with even better illusions. All squabbling. It was why they came to earth. So they could keep fighting eachother. Interesting premise.
Torg had the "Living Land" which was dinosaurs and the whole intense sensation religion. (And Lanala decomposing anything not natural. Ta-ta tech!)
Quote from: Omega;851702Keep in mind too that what someone calls magic one day, someone else is calling ESP tomorrow.
We have some water diviners in the family and they were called "water witches" and was considered magic. Now-a-days its called ESP.
This is a great point. Both magic and psi can mean a wide range of different things and be handled by a wide range of different practices, and there may be a fair amount of overlap in some systems, even essentially being the same thing.
I've generally usually ignored and not used psi in most of my games, because of the forms I first ran into it, which were:
* 5th grade D&D players who somehow thought there was a rule where you rolled d100 if you had some level of IQ or higher, and if you rolled 00, it meant you could take an action to have someone's head explode.
* The film _The Fury_ which I accidentally saw when I was young, where some kids have psi powers and can levitate people and tear them apart by thinking.
* The film _The Omen_, which seemed to me like a Catholic demonic version of the same thing.
* Other psi films which similarly seem to be about "some people can think and kill others who have little or no chance to resist".
So I didn't much care for the idea of some people who just sort of have the ability to think and have people die without much the victims can do about it. That just tends to keep seeming to me like a nightmare universe that's horrible and arbitrary and unfair in a way that there doesn't seem to be much way to resist in any way that seems very interesting.
If the abilities are much more limited, I think it can be more interesting.
If psi means some limited telepathy, energy sensitivity, interacting with spirits, empathy, premonitions, intuition, suggestion, dream skills, and perhaps a little bit of TK, all of which overlaps with magic, then I'm happy with that.
I've also always fairly liked the narrative description of TFT's magic system, which seems to be mainly psychic in nature, even though the use of it is pretty much all through specific learned functional spells.
Quote from: Skarg;851925I've generally usually ignored and not used psi in most of my games, because of the forms I first ran into it, which were:
It was non-existent in BX, and just short of non-existent for PCs in AD&D. 10% chance if you had 18s in the three stats. Which wasnt likely. Though we flipped INT and CHA so a good CHA score got you the 2.5/point and INT was the .5/point.
Quote from: Skarg;851925If the abilities are much more limited, I think it can be more interesting.
Me too.
I've been watching more Game of Thrones and noticing the low-fantasy feel of powers like the Wargs and Greensight... again, not spells but natural born abilities that appear. A rare person might have one, very few of those have more than one. THAT is how I'd want 'psionics' to exist in a fantasy game... not sure how such things might work in D&D, does 5e have rules for natural but limited gifts like that?
Thanks for those examples.
If I were writing a fantasy game with that sort of stuff, I'd probably call them "gifts" as you just did. I'd also pay attention to how other people would react. Magic users are bad enough, but freaks who have telepathy or TK might meet a lot of hostility
Quote from: Arminius;852002I'd also pay attention to how other people would react. Magic users are bad enough, but freaks who have telepathy or TK might meet a lot of hostility
Or they might be given positions of import close to the leaders... who would keep a close eye out for more and either employ them or kill them (as in 40K).
I'd might also rule than a person with such a gift has a leg up if they were to choose to learn formal magic at some point.
That is pretty much the Deryni series. You have hereditary psi powers and you have hereditary magic powers that can be unlocked by a psi ritual, and there was magic that could be learned. Both had limits at birth in how many things they could do if I recall correctly.
Many Colored Land limited each person to one or two talents. While a select few had more, usually inter-related to eachother. The elves and goblins had a different arrangement.
Quote from: Omega;851853I am cleaning up Kathy's book collection last night and discover she has the whole Deryni series in hardback.
On a simmilar note I have the Many colored Land series by Julian May. Which pits people with psi powers against elves in the prehistoric past. Should have been a Torg cosm.
Or a RIFTS something? That's a heck of a wild setup, and if you get tired of the Pleistocene, you can have travel back to the future hit the scene, or a Danaan or Fomor starship working.
I love Psionics. Always have. 2E D&D weirdness and all. I miss when it had it's own book in GURPS so I could build my own setting using that power set. Oh well.
Aeon, or Trinity as it was later called, from White Wolf presented an interesting psi based setting pitting psi endowed agents against former superheroes from Aberrant.
I'd also mention that pre-industrial cultures tended to have more belief not just in magic but also in limited "psi" powers such as telepathy, premonition, sensing distant information, and direction-finding. For example, there are still some indigenous people who have thought people's phones were just aids for telepathy, and who expect to already know what a hunter found before he got back from a hunt.
The stuff I avoid is when someone can find, observe and attack people from whatever distance without any particular effort, with little countermeasure, read minds, etc. and the reason is pretty much because they can and you can't.
We used them back in high school when we were playing AD&D. I use them currently in my Metamorphosis Alpha campaign, but not in my Beyond the Wall campaign.
For me their inclusion depends on the feel of the campaign I'm trying to run. They would seem out of place in Arthurian Romance, but fine in Swords & Sorcery. Not a good fit with most High Fantasy, but probably in Cyberpunk.
I like the concept, even in fantasy, but not the execution, at least not in any edition of D&D. So, apart from toying with it a little in high school when I had the 2E book, I have ignored it.
Psionics has long been a staple of fantasy, sci-fi, and RPG, and (for example) has existed in D&D since the original boxed set. it is interesting to see how various systems handled psionics and related phenomena.
From the beginning editions of D&D psionics was made available to players where it tended to be seriously randomized and occasionally extreme (i recall one character of mine that randomly rolled disintegration at first level in the 2e system....) If you don't believe me, check out the supplement 'eldritch wizardry' for the original boxed set which gave rules for psionics for all classes of characters. Amusingly enough, that supplement was released partly to 'fix' the ongoing rules creep, and to issue a rallying call of not relying upon the rules so much and using your imagination more.
latter editions of D&D (notably 3.5) made major strides at incorporating psionics into the rest of the game - and while the merits of harmonizing the psionic system with the magic system is debatable, it certainly made it accessible and easer to adjudicate, and for those interested in such things, the illusion of balance.
***
I have long enjoyed psionics in my fantasy literature (norton, brust, zelazny, and more), sci-fi literature (asimov, clark, norton, engdahl, czerneda, and more), and my gaming (D&D, Rifts, TfOS, GURPS, Heroes Unlimited, Star Frontiers, Palladium Fantasy, Amber, and more).
These days, I seldom rp anything but psionics, or at least psionically influenced.
Personally, as far as the mechanical execution of psionics goes, I think I like the GURPS take and flavor best, though it has it's pros and cons like all systems.
Quote from: nijineko;853697Psionics has long been a staple of fantasy, sci-fi, and RPG, and (for example) has existed in D&D since the original boxed set. it is interesting to see how various systems handled psionics and related phenomena.
From the beginning editions of D&D psionics was made available to players where it tended to be seriously randomized and occasionally extreme (i recall one character of mine that randomly rolled disintegration at first level in the 2e system....) If you don't believe me, check out the supplement 'eldritch wizardry' for the original boxed set which gave rules for psionics for all classes of characters. Amusingly enough, that supplement was released partly to 'fix' the ongoing rules creep, and to issue a rallying call of not relying upon the rules so much and using your imagination more.
latter editions of D&D (notably 3.5) made major strides at incorporating psionics into the rest of the game - and while the merits of harmonizing the psionic system with the magic system is debatable, it certainly made it accessible and easer to adjudicate, and for those interested in such things, the illusion of balance.
***
I have long enjoyed psionics in my fantasy literature (norton, brust, zelazny, and more), sci-fi literature (asimov, clark, norton, engdahl, czerneda, and more), and my gaming (D&D, Rifts, TfOS, GURPS, Heroes Unlimited, Star Frontiers, Palladium Fantasy, Amber, and more).
These days, I seldom rp anything but psionics, or at least psionically influenced.
Personally, as far as the mechanical execution of psionics goes, I think I like the GURPS take and flavor best, though it has it's pros and cons like all systems.
i know this is a touch off topic but could i ask how gurps psionics works i keep hearing out of peaple how good the gurps psionic system is and as a guy making an rpg im curious.
Quote from: kosmos1214;854001i know this is a touch off topic but could i ask how gurps psionics works i keep hearing out of peaple how good the gurps psionic system is and as a guy making an rpg im curious.
GURPS Psionics is a point buy system (all of GURPS is point buy) with both power and skill as separate items. Accomplishing tasks is skill based. Using psionics costs fatigue, which cost cannot be reduced below a certain level; one can spend extra fatigue and/or take skill penalties for 'extra effort' and the 'not-my-usual-thing-but-give-it-a-whirl' mechanics for extra flexibility.
powers are arranged along the real-world identified/believed-in psychic phenomena lines (extra-sensory, kinesis, telepathy, empathy, healing, teleportation, astral projection). Also contains guidelines about when "psionics" stops being psychic and starts being magic or superpowers instead; as well as notes about how to play a 'normals' game using some material from the sourcebook.
as a side note, i know of many gamers and designers both who purchase GURPS material simply as reference material, even if they never intend to play the system, on account of it almost always being very well written, researched, and referenced. I myself have found this to be true.
{Statement of Affiliation: Please be aware that I am a Cell Leader for Steve Jackson Games' Men In Black volunteer organization. My comments regarding SJG product are solely my own opinion, and are not to be construed as an official SJG statement.}
Speaking of psionics. I hated the introduction of psi powers to Star Frontiers. It just felt so out of place in the setting.
Quote from: Omega;855111Speaking of psionics. I hated the introduction of psi powers to Star Frontiers. It just felt so out of place in the setting.
and isn't that odd, considering that sci-fi is the most commonly accepted setting for psychic phenomena? i recall playing star frontiers - i enjoyed it quite a bit, despite the clunkiness of the system, it was one of my first rpgs ever.
Very true. But there are many sci-fi where psi is not present. It just did not fit the setting. Albedo kept it down to three people in the comic. Two with an invisibility power and one with a sort of low level precog ability. The rest of the setting didnt. Simmilar to the problem of introducing psi into Battletech. It just feels a little off. Or adding aliens to Battletech. Which the Clans are pretty much. And would have really been had things gone differently.
Or more aptly. Psi shoehorned in after the fact is one problem. O and BX D&D do not have it and it would feel odd to have it introduced out of the blue. AD&D on the other hand has psi right out the gate.
When did Traveller introduce psi? At the start or later?
Immediately in book III. 1977
Really? I will have to look that up. Thanks!
addendum:
Found it. Supplement 3. Eldritch Wizardry. huh, looks a-lot like AD&D's psi system.
Quote from: Omega;855673Really? I will have to look that up. Thanks!
addendum:
Found it. Supplement 3. Eldritch Wizardry. huh, looks a-lot like AD&D's psi system.
Just to be sure, I was answering the Traveller psionics question. Book III Worlds and Adventures. You are probably addressing two separate questions here, but just making sure, being the internet.
Quote from: Kuroth;855746Just to be sure, I was answering the Traveller psionics question. Book III Worlds and Adventures. You are probably addressing two separate questions here, but just making sure, being the internet.
Yep. We got it. Traveller: psi introduced in core rulebook 3:worlds and adventures. D&D: psi introduced in OD&D supplement 3: Edlrtich Wizardry
They also came out around the same time.
Quote from: nijineko;853697From the beginning editions of D&D psionics was made available to players where it tended to be seriously randomized and occasionally extreme (i recall one character of mine that randomly rolled disintegration at first level in the 2e system....) If you don't believe me, check out the supplement 'eldritch wizardry' for the original boxed set which gave rules for psionics for all classes of characters. Amusingly enough, that supplement was released partly to 'fix' the ongoing rules creep, and to issue a rallying call of not relying upon the rules so much and using your imagination more.
That was just mentioned a page back......
Quote from: nijineko;855926That was just mentioned a page back......
Which totally missed in a page jump from a replay.
Quote from: Omega;855960Which totally missed in a page jump from a replay.
I was time-travel-ninja'd!
I don't mind psionics in Traveller. Mostly because it's random and rare.
In both D&D and Traveller, psionics come up very rarely. I can think of maybe five or six PCs that have had the ability when I was DM/GM, and maybe three when I was a player -only one of whom had much use for them. I do remember a thief in our group who had clairaudience, clairvoyance, telepathy and a couple of other abilities -and had very little luck or success with his standard thieving abilities. The psionics worked well enough that the rest of our PCs didn't want the thief doing anything but reading psychic impressions, etc. He was a crystal ball and wand of enemy detection rolled into one.
Weird. Just an hour ago was reading the Eldritch Wizardry version of psionics and thinking of this thread. ESP!
I think they should have kept the system used in OD&D and carried it over to A.
Psionics came at a notable cost to the class to acquire and advance. Fighters lost from their total possible retainers and eventually STR, magic users and clerics lost spells. Clerics found it increasingly harder to turn undead as well. Thieves lost STR and DEX the more psi they accumulated.
Quote from: Omega;861855Thieves lost STR and DEX the more psi they accumulated.
Eventually becoming nothing but an enormous floating brain!!!
Quote from: Simlasa;861861Eventually becoming nothing but an enormous floating brain!!!
I was going to say the same thing. To be fair, 'Sound of body, sound of mind' is a rather new concept to us geeks. The idea that we'd have to physically fit and still be psychic reeked too much of accept the 'Jocks'. :p
Quote from: Simlasa;861861Eventually becoming nothing but an enormous floating brain!!!
That's why you never teach your pet parrot any psionics. They eventually become Grell.
/rimshot!
I'll be here all week!
Quote from: Simlasa;861861Eventually becoming nothing but an enormous floating brain!!!
And we all know where that leads.
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/UoGGI1rc0oU/hqdefault.jpg)
Quote from: tenbones;862043That's why you never teach your pet parrot any psionics. They eventually become Grell.
/rimshot!
I'll be here all week!
Open Mike Grell?
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-UQ68pBi3Wgk/UViGkfhQGMI/AAAAAAAABng/FXFpGwLshww/s1600/WarlordLovesIt.jpg)
Quote from: Phillip;862108Open Mike Grell?
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-UQ68pBi3Wgk/UViGkfhQGMI/AAAAAAAABng/FXFpGwLshww/s1600/WarlordLovesIt.jpg)
thank you for reminding me i need to track down a set of warlord
Quote from: Phillip;862108Open Mike Grell?
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-UQ68pBi3Wgk/UViGkfhQGMI/AAAAAAAABng/FXFpGwLshww/s1600/WarlordLovesIt.jpg)
Oh you glorious bastard!!! I loved Warlord.
Obviously he used psionics to win.
Not sure how it relates to psionics but that is one motherfucking awesome image.