This comes about after seeing a thread over at Big Purple on Apocalypse World, which apparently utilizes F*** as part of its bread-and-butter, so to speak. Probably not surprising, given the game's author and mechanical bonuses for boning another character, but it made me think: do we have more or less profanity in RPGs now than we did 10 years ago? 20 years ago?
Also, I think profanity at my gaming table has cut down, as the ages in my gaming circle have become more varied and I set about the task of raising 3 kids. Being a military vet, F*** used to be a noun, adjective, verb, and everything in between, but that's obviously changed a bit.
I don't know—the whole overabundance of being a pottymouth in your game writing thing just seems a little like this (http://www.theonion.com/articles/marilyn-manson-now-going-doortodoor-trying-to-shoc,459/) to me.
I'm not trying to be a prude or tell anyone else to play, but it almost feels like kids gleefully dropping f-bombs because they just figured out their parents aren't around to hear them. There's still going to be cursing at my table, and I'm sure there's a place for it out there, but I can't see myself running something like this given my current group demographics.
Bah I'm British! We use swearing as punctuation!
I usually try to avoid profanity when I'm at a game table, especially when I'm the DM.
In my experience, I've noticed individuals who constantly use profanity all the time, are frequently trouble at the gaming table. (ie. Every second or third word they say is "fuck", "shit", etc ...). These particular individuals I knew, were typically also very angry all the time too. It's as if their constant use of profanity, was their way of "projecting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection)" their anger in personal face to face conversations.
Profanity in a printed game book and profanity by participants at the table are completely different to me. Acceptable every day speech has a lower bar to clear than published material in my opinion. I'm not going to buy a book that is littered with profanity, but I don't care if people are swearing at my table. Also I prefer my television and movies to be uncensored, so Deadwood or Game of Thrones instead of Narnia family approved.
I don't use profanity a lot. I use more than some, and less than others. I use a lot more when I stub my toe. In RPG's? Not so much. I've made that mistake. (Admittedly it was a 24 hour rpg, and I was awake too long before that.)
Really most games don't need it, not more than I as a writer use in my normal language. A game which uses more than that, I'll suspect it trying to hard.
I swear a lot at the table, but it's mainly exuberance or trash-talking. In a book, outside of in-character speech, it's a bit of a waste.
I only play with adults. Adults don't curse all the time but they also don't get offended when someone uses a "swear word".
I've always found the concept of "swear words" a bit ridiculous. A bunch of people convincing themselves that certain words can actually in some way cause them harm.
That said, I like to buy game books written by people who at least make an attempt at being professional. Trying to be "edgy" in an RPG book is like painting racing stripes on your pocket protector.
I first noticed the word "fuck" in an RPG when I first looked through Shadowrun 4th edition. I was surprised at first, but honestly I thought it added to the atmosphere (it's only used in the flavor text).
Other than that example, I do not believe I've seen any swear/curse/four-letter words in any other RPG material.
As a GM, I try not to use those words as they generally break the atmosphere of the games I've run recently. However, back when I ran Rifts and Robotech, I didn't really see an issue with them (however, I was in my teens and early 20's, so maturity might have had something to do with it). But it doesn't really seem right for Castles and Crusades, so I try to be more creative.
Who the fuck cares?
I can see profanity being used for in-character comments in rulebooks, especially if the book has a strong street gang or cyberpunk vibe. Other than that, it doesn't belong.
Swearing happens all the time at the gaming table. No big deal. I'd rather hear "Fuck" than yet another Monty Python tangent.
Quote from: Ian Warner;464915Bah I'm British! We use swearing as punctuation!
Really??
You fucking forgot to swear in that post then.
- Ed C.
FraQnabbing son of an Eggless Dragon! - May Kahless curse him.
Quote from: danbuter;464956I can see profanity being used for in-character comments in rulebooks, especially if the book has a strong street gang or cyberpunk vibe. Other than that, it doesn't belong.
Swearing happens all the time at the gaming table. No big deal. I'd rather hear "Fuck" than yet another Monty Python tangent.
No shit. Honestly, I thought quoting Monty Python was getting pretty old way the fuck back in 1991 or whatever when I was in junior high. Now I just give a look of contempt when someone does it that says, "Seriously? In the last 35 fucking years you couldn't find one new funny movie to like?"
As for swearing, I have no issue with it at the game table. I have no issue with it out of the game table. The only thing I don't like is when someone whines about other people swearing.
I'm with TristamEvans, the very concept of "swear words" seems absurd to me, and has been since I was like 12. One of my favorite forms of hypocrisy is when people use substitute words to swear without technically swearing - someone please tell me how that makes any sense or is in any way less offensive.
But as Dan says, it doesn't belong in a book outside of in-character dialogue. And that's because no conversational voice belongs in a rulebook outside of in-character dialog, swear words or no. Manuals should read like manuals.
I don't swear much in real life and don't tend to swear in games, but it's no big deal. Use of profanities could potentially put me off buying a game, but then so can lousy art.
A just for the sake of comparison, the sheer amount profanity didn't affect my enjoyment of The Wire or the Sopranos in the least. It does bug me a bit in Game of Thrones as, no matter they try to dress it up as adult drama, it's still about dragons and zombie and a lot of kids would actually enjoy it given half a chance.
You'd also have to...you know...cut everything else out of GoT, at which point you'd just have The Chronicles of Narnia.
Game of Thrones is not written for little kids, so I'd hate to see a TV show about it that was.
Quote from: Peregrin;464967You'd also have to...you know...cut everything else out of GoT, at which point you'd just have The Chronicles of Narnia.
But isn't that the point? If all that separates Game of Thrones from Chronicles of Narnia is a couple of girl on girl scenes and the tactical use of the F-bomb, it's isn't really an adult drama.
Bear in mind Prince Caspian is pretty grim and think of all the gore you could have when the slay Aslan on the altar!
Quote from: Soylent Green;464970But isn't that the point? If all that separates Game of Thrones from Chronicles of Narnia is a couple of girl on girl scenes and the tactical use of the F-bomb, it's isn't really an adult drama.
That's all that separates a lot of adult media from children's media.
Quote from: Zachary The First;464914Being a military vet, F*** used to be a noun, adjective, verb, and everything in between, but that's obviously changed a bit.
This is me as well.
Profanity does not bother me when heard or used, but I recognize that it does bother some other people when in verbal or written form. As such, I try to use it as a spice and not the main ingredient. If used as the main ingredient, profanity loses its impact and usefulness.
(Caveat time. I have had a few NPCs who swear nonstop as part of their personality.)
Quote from: Peregrin;464972That's all that separates a lot of adult media from children's media.
No, that's not true. Take Wire, an example I made above. Beyond the drama, excitement and entertainment what the show really bring home is how dysfunctional the press and our legal, political, educational system have become. And it's not a cheap, superficial critique, it takes you step by step and shows you how you get to that point. It's gripping drama, but it's also about something and really don't think even with the language and violence toned down a kid would appreciate it.
Gamas of Thrones by contrast is just a cracking good story with knights, mad kings, children in peril and monsters behind the wall. A kid would totally get it, and there is nothing wrong with that.
I said a lot, not all, which is what makes shows like the Wire so special. I'm just saying GoT is par for the course, and so complaining about it specifically seems odd when there are tons of other movies and shows we could say the same thing about.
To reiterate, I generally don't have an issue with profanity at the game table of others, but between a gaming group of mixed ages and having kids around, I've definitely curtailed it a bit for our sessions.
Like Jeff, I've had a few NPCs who've sworn quite a bit over the years.
Star Wars + Profanity = Comedy
Quote from: TristramEvans;464951That said, I like to buy game books written by people who at least make an attempt at being professional. Trying to be "edgy" in an RPG book is like painting racing stripes on your pocket protector.
Well I'm not sure I agree here. I don't think swearing in book text is supposed to be "edgy" I think it's supposed to be informal and conversational. Like the designer is sitting down and explaining his/her game. I prefer that approach to anything "professional" myself.
If you can't say something without swearing, maybe you shouldn't say it.
Quote from: Ian Warner;464983Well I'm not sure I agree here. I don't think swearing in book text is supposed to be "edgy" I think it's supposed to be informal and conversational. Like the designer is sitting down and explaining his/her game. I prefer that approach to anything "professional" myself.
That could be. Some games do a very good job of hitting that more textbook flavor, and some are good at the "informal chat" variety.
I'm a Palladium player, which is a weird mix of formality and SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY SUPER MONSTER TRUCK THUNDERDOME VOICE EXCITEMENT!!!! :D
Quote from: JDCorley;464982Star Wars + Profanity = Comedy
Hell yes. My wife is running around playing Lego Star Wars right now, hacking people to piece with Qi-gon and taking their money. She is shouting, "QUINGO GOTTA EAT, MOTHERFUCKERS" sporadically.
I just started wondering what Star Wars would look like if it were directed by Quintin Tarantino.
Something like this? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y1UBErkiCM)
Quote from: Peregrin;464954Who the fuck cares?
I concur.
Quote from: Peregrin;464954Who the fuck cares?
Isn't that the point of this thread, to find out who cares? :D
-clash
My thought:
Didn't everyone have their fill of this shit during the heyday of white wolf? Yeah, I get it: you're big boy authors and you can swear now.
Just throwing a bunch of swearing into your game isn't going to make it edgy and interesting. It should be used where appropriate. Just like I don't like the edited-for-television version of A Few Good Men, you shouldn't sugarcoat raw moments if you have mature adults at the table. But what I don't want to see is random profanities thrown in just for fun.
Thanks for the warning on Apocalypse World.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;465036My thought:
Didn't everyone have their fill of this shit during the heyday of white wolf? Yeah, I get it: you're big boy authors and you can swear now.
Just throwing a bunch of swearing into your game isn't going to make it edgy and interesting. It should be used where appropriate. Just like I don't like the edited-for-television version of A Few Good Men, you shouldn't sugarcoat raw moments if you have mature adults at the table. But what I don't want to see is random profanities thrown in just for fun.
Thanks for the warning on Apocalypse World.
Got your back Mr. Slaad! That's the key word for me - appropriate.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmice;465035Isn't that the point of this thread, to find out who cares? :D
-clash
I thought so, but then again I didn't see anyone I recognized in this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1WZ6a6YYJg). :D
Quote from: Zachary The First;465038I thought so, but then again I didn't see anyone I recognized in this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1WZ6a6YYJg). :D
Ed is the second guy on the left, in the back.
-clash
Quote from: Ian Warner;464983Well I'm not sure I agree here. I don't think swearing in book text is supposed to be "edgy" I think it's supposed to be informal and conversational. Like the designer is sitting down and explaining his/her game. I prefer that approach to anything "professional" myself.
Ah, well, it's a preference thing I suppose. I don't care for "conversational" tones in RPGs; I prefer the gamebook to be an easy to use (and easy to ignore) reference manual. But then, I also hate game fiction, and a bunch of meta-discussion about the game instead of detailing the setting.
Quote from: flyingmice;465035Isn't that the point of this thread, to find out Who cares? :D
-clash
No he doesn't - and when he does cuss or swear its in Galllifreyan - so we wouldn't understand what he said anyway.
- Ed C.
In general, profanity is not useful in rules. I don't really learn much more if having zero hit points is described as "fucked!"
So in game books we'll usually only see profanity in flavour fiction. And flavour fiction is an abomination unto The Gygax, so should not be present in any book, profanity is irrelevant.
I suppose profanity could be useful in the practical game play advice section of the book, but those are usually sparse and included just as an afterthought anyway, unfortunately.
^ What he said... profanity is irrelevant, therefore not useful in a roleplaying context. Have seen a few good moments however, when players involuntarily swear when something surprising happens to their characters... That's not roleplaying though, it's not even good acting. It's humorous moments.
If the players deliberately try to create those moments, they almost invariably fail.
I'm another who thinks the idea of 'dirty words' is ridiculous... but I do think that tossing lots of 'fuck' into your daily speech makes you sound ignorant. Mixing it up with 'shit', 'cunt' and 'crap' will assure listeners that your vocabulary is not limited and that you may, in fact, be well read.
Oh, there's heaps of profanity at my game table. But a rules system or campaign book's a different thing.
If it matches the tone of the campaign/system, I've no problem with it being in the books.
"Will Smith don't gotta cuss in his raps to sell records"
Well I DO
So F*** him and F*** you too
-Eminem
some profanity in a game book is okay. when every other word is a swear, you are trying too hard to sound edgy and your editor needs to tell you as much.
Swearing in a rulebook - other than IC dialogue - is just lazy, and makes the author look a dick.
Swearing at the table - other than IC dialogue - is probably also lazy, but I do it all the fucking time. :p
It's just a distraction, that's all. For the most part it takes away the focus on more important things, like roleplaying, and ... creative thinking and problem solving.
It might actually enhance teamwork, if all the players swear together or in a colorful manner, but how many situations actually exist, even in a fantasy world, that would warrant such an emo outburst?
IC profanity is fine. Some characters swear some don't.
Quote from: GameDaddy;465103It's just a distraction, that's all. For the most part it takes away the focus on more important things, like roleplaying, and ... creative thinking and problem solving.
It might actually enhance teamwork, if all the players swear together or in a colorful manner, but how many situations actually exist, even in a fantasy world, that would warrant such an emo outburst?
Depends on your setting. Criminals, soldiers, cops and gangsters swear all the time. Most average people stick in the occasional profanity. Only the really posh or religious don't swear at all.
I don't mind swearing as long as it isn't hostile. Some games I expect some swearing in character. In game books I don't mind it if it fits the concept of the game. If it is there just to be shocking or edgy it's kind of like listening to you dad rap.
Quote from: Soylent Green;464966A just for the sake of comparison, the sheer amount profanity didn't affect my enjoyment of The Wire or the Sopranos in the least. It does bug me a bit in Game of Thrones as, no matter they try to dress it up as adult drama, it's still about dragons and zombie and a lot of kids would actually enjoy it given half a chance.
Count me in for another vote of "seriously?"
GoT is basically a political thriller about everyone trying to violently murder / sleep with everyone else while complaining about their lousy childhoods. How exactly does that scream "made for kids"?
Dramas aren't the only genre of entertainment for adults, you know. Fantasy, Science Fiction, Horror, Comedy, Action - they can all be made for adults. Being in a specific genre doesn't automatically make something only for adolescents and children.
Quote from: jgants;465145Count me in for another vote of "seriously?"
GoT is basically a political thriller about everyone trying to violently murder / sleep with everyone else while complaining about their lousy childhoods. How exactly does that scream "made for kids"?
Dramas aren't the only genre of entertainment for adults, you know. Fantasy, Science Fiction, Horror, Comedy, Action - they can all be made for adults. Being in a specific genre doesn't automatically make something only for adolescents and children.
People seem to forget sometimes that sex and violence have always been woven into the human condition as a whole throughout all of history. For some reason it's common to view either as a part of a cosmetic layer that by default does not belong in a work.
Quote from: jgants;465145Dramas aren't the only genre of entertainment for adults, you know. Fantasy, Science Fiction, Horror, Comedy, Action - they can all be made for adults. Being in a specific genre doesn't automatically make something only for adolescents and children.
I concur. Any genre can be "adult". The reflex to say "hey it's got dragons, it's for kids" is lame and shallow.
As for swearing in a game book, it all depends on the game. It can be part of the feel of the game (I'm thinking Cyberpunk games, In Nomine Satanis/Magna Veritas, here). After, nobody's forcing anyone to play this or that game because there'd be a "fuck" here and there.
So, if it fits, thematically, I'm okay with it. If it doesn't fit well... it doesn't fit and that's that.
As for IC dialog at a game table, that totally depends on the characters' personalities, habits and whatnot. OOC, it'll depend on the players, their personalities, habits, whatnot. I tend to swear like a sailor, personally, but I can hold my tongue.
I think it's about context. I couldn't imagine a Deadwood RPG without huge amounts of epic swearing, for example. And I have absolutely no problem with swearing in real life. But for the most part I don't think it really belongs in a game text, it's just unprofessional looking.
You should either have loads of swearing (because it's justified by the genre/setting) or none (because it isn't).
Can't wait to get on to my Spin Doctor RPG.
Swearing will be a Stat!
Quote from: Ian Warner;465167Can't wait to get on to my Spin Doctor RPG.
Swearing will be a Stat!
Heh. What are the other stats? Toadying, Shift Blame, and Improvise Legislation?
Shameless self-promotion.
Back in 1989, Shadowrun 1E had special fake future-swear words that it used exclusively instead of real swear words. SR4 in 2005 used the real ones. That's pretty common. The 80s were prudish and people lived in fear of Tom Hanks. In the 21st century, we say Fuck.
-Frank
Since you ask
Swearing
Intrigue
Weird Logic
Sensitivity
Wit
Bollocks
Quote from: FrankTrollman;465172Back in 1989, Shadowrun 1E had special fake future-swear words that it used exclusively instead of real swear words. SR4 in 2005 used the real ones. That's pretty common. The 80s were prudish and people lived in fear of Tom Hanks. In the 21st century, we say Fuck.
-Frank
I find that a bit weird, because I've always thought of Shadowrun, like Rifts and D&D, as one of those games that appeals to a significant amount of younger gamers. (I'm not saying that only kids play them or anything, BTW! Just that they have additional appeal in that market that other games might not)
Quote from: jgants;465145Count me in for another vote of "seriously?"
GoT is basically a political thriller about everyone trying to violently murder / sleep with everyone else while complaining about their lousy childhoods. How exactly does that scream "made for kids"?
Dramas aren't the only genre of entertainment for adults, you know. Fantasy, Science Fiction, Horror, Comedy, Action - they can all be made for adults. Being in a specific genre doesn't automatically make something only for adolescents and children.
Here is the way I see it. Take George R R Martin's "Windhaven". It's scf-fi book full of intrigue and politics. Even though the issues are imaginary and set of a fantastical world, it still made you think. The issues weren't just clashes of personalities, they had enough substance that you could see the different arguments and draw parallels to real world issues. It's a very good book; it's entertaining but it also has something to say.
Martin's "Game of Thrones" however is a much about politics as Dallas was about the oil business. It captures the trappings and atmosphere of politics, but there is no context, no issues beyond personalities and nothing to take away from it. It's beautifully executed soap opera.
But that's not all bad. Dune, which I really enjoyed and highly rate, is very much in the same mould. The point I'm getting at is the filmed versions of Dune (and in my mind the TV mini series is the better one) can pull off the whole deep intrigue feel without needing profanity and graphic nudity thus making in it accessible to both adults and younger viewers.
Profanity in RPG books, unless illustrating an actual play and/or emulating genre, highlights 3 things.
1. The author isn't a very good writer.
2. The author isn't a very good RPG writer.
3. Shock tactics are all the author has.
Explicit obcenity pretty much shows the same 3 things, but without the qualifier.
Quote from: Ian Warner;465173Since you ask
Swearing
Intrigue
Weird Logic
Sensitivity
Wit
Bollocks
I take it Wit and Sensitivity are the dump stats?
JG
Using profanity has nothing to do with one's skill as a writer.
How it is used, and why, might, however.
Quote from: James Gillen;465207I take it Wit and Sensitivity are the dump stats?
JG
Depends if you're playing Malcolm Tucker or the Minister....
Quote from: Benoist;465208Using profanity has nothing to do with one's skill as a writer.
How it is used, and why, might, however.
We are in full agreement then.
Quote from: FrankTrollman;465172Back in 1989, Shadowrun 1E had special fake future-swear words that it used exclusively instead of real swear words. SR4 in 2005 used the real ones. That's pretty common. The 80s were prudish and people lived in fear of Tom Hanks. In the 21st century, we say Fuck.
-Frank
Indeed... we don't risk or even take time making up new words anymore... we just use the same old ones, even though they don't even mean the same thing.
The eighties were over the top awesome... The seventies plus. ...That is until 1986. I left an America that was a very interesting place in 1985 and returned in early 1987 to the big chill. A country that was paralyzed by a new four letter word. Aids. Fear ruled over reason and the moral compass was reset instantly by the news media and the medical establishment. I felt like I had just stepped backwards in time more than twenty some odd years. I was here just three months, and then left again.
There is a place for profanity in games, even in rules books. Where there's room for profanity there's also room for other creative alternatives as well that create the same or even new effects, without limiting or constraining the vocabulary of the people who happen to be playing the game.
Quote from: Soylent Green;465185Martin's "Game of Thrones" however is a much about politics as Dallas was about the oil business. It captures the trappings and atmosphere of politics, but there is no context, no issues beyond personalities and nothing to take away from it. It's beautifully executed soap opera.
There is an issue behind the story though, it's blind greed and how it destroys the very thing that inspired it. Westeros starts out as a prosperous kingdom and is rapidly turned into a hellhole solely because of the greed of it's nobles. There is a lesson to be taken away from it, you may not agree with it but it's there.
Quote from: GameDaddy;465233Indeed... we don't risk or even take time making up new words anymore... we just use the same old ones, even though they don't even mean the same thing.
*Snipped bit*
There is a place for profanity in games, even in rules books. Where there's room for profanity there's also room for other creative alternatives as well that create the same or even new effects, without limiting or constraining the vocabulary of the people who happen to be playing the game.
You seem to be contradicting yourself or I'm not understanding what you're saying. The fake vulgarities of Shadowrun were part of the setting, dropping them for contemporary language doesn't strike me as creative at all. It just seems lazy and part of the using profanity equals maturity nonsense we get from the movie ratings system. "OMG E.T. can't be rated G no one will watch it! Quick throw some shits and damns in the dialogue!"
I agree that there is a time and place for most things, including profanity, but I don't see how it opens the door for anything.
Quote from: Xanador;465272There is an issue behind the story though, it's blind greed and how it destroys the very thing that inspired it. Westeros starts out as a prosperous kingdom and is rapidly turned into a hellhole solely because of the greed of it's nobles. There is a lesson to be taken away from it, you may not agree with it but it's there.
Exactly, it's Dallas all over again.
Quote from: Xanador;465272"OMG E.T. can't be rated G no one will watch it! Quick throw some shits and damns in the dialogue!"
"E.T. phone home... you stupid cunt Elliott"
Guess.
RPGPundit
You do realise that the theory going round is that the foul-mouth, ranting Pundit is just a screen persona and the in the flesh he is actually a mild-mannered Canadian who would not dream of using language any stronger than "gosh darnit"?
Quote from: Soylent Green;465273Exactly, it's Dallas all over again.
I'll concede the point the neither Dallas nor Game of Thrones are terribly "deep" works. However, they are both still thoroughly adult in nature.
Something need not be "deep" to be for adults. The Saw movies, for example, are not remotely deep. But they aren't for kids, either. Nor are the American Pie movies.
It need not be steeped in violence, profanity, or sexualization to be adult in nature, either. Those Rock Hudson movies in the 50's certainly weren't deep but were clearly for adults. The more classic Philidelphia Story-type romantic comedies were as well.
Heck, a lot of dramas aren't very deep either. Treasure of the Sierra Madre surely wasn't, and they didn't even think adult women should be watching that at the time (LOL). I'd argue stuff like The Winslow Boy wasn't really all that deep or made for children either, despite being used in literature classes.
I just don't see how happening to have a couple of dragons and undead things in the periphery of the story somehow turns it into something that would be for children if the language and sex were turned down (I'll assume we'd be leaving the violence in; most Americans could care less how much violence their child witnesses as long as there's no swearing or sex involved).
Political stuff for kids is boring. So is amorality.
Just look at the opening half of the Phantom Menace. I was around the target-age for the movies at the time (12 years old) and I couldn't tell you what the fuck the political shit was about. Probably because it still doesn't make sense after examination, but it still didn't make for an entertaining movie.
When you're a little kid, you want obvious big bad evils (like the original Star Wars), you want globe-hopping plots and adventure, not characters examining their political agendas in a godless world where nearly everyone's a jerk.
I mean, there's that, or GoT just isn't a very good story. I'd probably lean towards that. Cool setting, interesting history, comparatively bad as a story. I'm finding it enjoyable, but not in a "I give a shit about these characters" sort of way (aside from the little Stark girl and Jon).
Quote from: Peregrin;465331Political stuff for kids is boring. So is amorality.
Just look at the opening half of the Phantom Menace. I was around the target-age for the movies at the time (12 years old) and I couldn't tell you what the fuck the political shit was about. Probably because it still doesn't make sense after examination, but it still didn't make for an entertaining movie.
When you're a little kid, you want obvious big bad evils (like the original Star Wars), you want globe-hopping plots and adventure, not characters examining their political agendas in a godless world where nearly everyone's a jerk.
I mean, there's that, or GoT just isn't a very good story. I'd probably lean towards that. Cool setting, interesting history, comparatively bad as a story. I'm finding it enjoyable, but not in a "I give a shit about these characters" sort of way (aside from the little Stark girl and Jon).
I ddisagree . I read a lot across a range on genres from premo levi to kafka to stephen king and back. GOT is a great story. It combines petty human emotion with sweeping epic big stasge stuff whilst inverting a genre the good guys die the bad guys turn out to be not quite so bad aftyer all.
Idk. The chars seem pretty two dimensional, and are never allowed to move the story forward when they get the chance to. Its interesting conceptually, like a historical recount, but on a dramatic level there's a lot of nothing happen all the time.
Quote from: Peregrin;465352The chars [...] are never allowed to move the story forward when they get the chance to.
I don't understand what you mean by that.
I have some issues with characterization in the series, but I don't see how characters "moving the story forward" has to do with their roundedness of portrayal.
Quote from: Cole;465353I don't understand what you mean by that.
I have some issues with characterization in the series, but I don't see how characters "moving the story forward" has to do with their roundedness of portrayal.
I meant it as a separate criticism. Protagonists being denied the chance to make a difference defies standard "epic fantasy" tropes, but it happens all the time in GoT, to the point where it's almost like you can tell GRR did it just out of defiance of the genre, rather than to help the story.
I think that's where some people are getting frustrated, or why they feel it may move "slow", because you build up to these points where you're like "Alright, they're going to do something awesome!", and then something happens that completely sidelines the character and they end up not doing anything substantial.
I'm going to start the first book soon, and I'm going to give it an honest shot. I'll probably enjoy them a bit more if they get into the characters more than the show has.
Quote from: FrankTrollman;465172Back in 1989, Shadowrun 1E had special fake future-swear words that it used exclusively instead of real swear words. SR4 in 2005 used the real ones. That's pretty common. The 80s were prudish and people lived in fear of Tom Hanks. In the 21st century, we say Fuck.
-Frank
1-3E used Frag and such, it wasn't until Catalyst games took over that they started using Fuck....I wonder if catalyst did not get the rights to the shadowrun language...
As For "its got dragons so its just for kids" I remember seeing "Death to Smoochy" in theaters and the first time Robin Williams yelled out "I'm Rainbow Fucking Randall" I actually seen parents pick up kids and run out of the theater...so some dim-whited parents believed just because it had a big Rhino Costume, that it was for kids....
Ok, keep in mind I am going only from the TV show; I have not read the books.
Quote from: Peregrin;465368I meant it as a separate criticism. Protagonists being denied the chance to make a difference defies standard "epic fantasy" tropes, but it happens all the time in GoT, to the point where it's almost like you can tell GRR did it just out of defiance of the genre, rather than to help the story.
I don't agree with you, unless you construe "make a difference" only as "and then it saves the day!" or something like that. Generally it seems like at any given juncture a character makes a choice, and there are large consequences. Most everything that happens with, let's say, Ned, seems to follow from his active choice up to the point where he is imprisoned for treason (and arguably after, one might say that his false confession prevents his daughter's murder even if not his own.) For example his choice to support Stanisz over Cersei or even Renly seems to lead directly to Petyr turning on him. His motivations sometimes seem contrived to me but not the mechanics of the drama.
Quote from: Peregrin;465368I think that's where some people are getting frustrated, or why they feel it may move "slow", because you build up to these points where you're like "Alright, they're going to do something awesome!", and then something happens that completely sidelines the character and they end up not doing anything substantial.
I don't really see where you are coming from. I guess there are a couple examples, the one I can really think of at the moment is Sandor holds back Sansa from pushing Joffrey but most of the main characters are pretty decisive agents, Catelyn, Rob, Tyrion, Danaerys, Drogo, etc. I mean, it is an ensemble cast and given conflict some characters lose out but compare the medieval conflicts he is partially making homage to, characters rise and fall.
I am not saying that GoT is Shakespeare level material but it sort of strives to work in the narrative form of the history dramas. I don't find it a failing that there is not one central protagonist who always gets to have his tvtropes "crowning moment of awesome" at the requisite 15 minute story beats, if that is what you mean.
If the show moves slowly, and I do think it does at times, I think it has more to do with the characters being long-winded and the scripts' tendency to have an exposition heavy tell-not-show approach that is probably partly inherited from previous price-by-weight fantasy epics and partly a creature of budget restraints.
Quote from: Peregrin;465368I'm going to start the first book soon, and I'm going to give it an honest shot. I'll probably enjoy them a bit more if they get into the characters more than the show has.
Again, I can only speak for the TV show. I do think the characterizations can ring false at times, Ned sometimes seems to speak and act as a straw-man for concepts Martin wants to deconstruct rather than out of any understandable human motivation, several characters (Cersei, Jamie, Petyr come to mind) can be weirdly
preachy about their amorality in a mustache-twirling way that I find grating and artificial, etc. But I still don't really follow your earlier criticisms - maybe I'm not sure what you're comparing them to.
Two examples that might help clarify what I mean.
******SPOILERS IF YOU HAVENT SEEN THE SHOW******
Tyrion being knocked out before the battle for apprently no reason. He's constantly trying to get ahead but continually denied for no other reason than to defy heroic tropes. He could have made a decent general and his character could have evolved a bit, but instead they deny his character this chance and his character remains static.
Joffrey had a few seconds where he was like "Wait, why is Stark saying I'm not the true heir??", which would have made for an interesting character development, but instead they brush it off and he just remains the same without any more interesting internal conflicts that could add more dimensions to his character. He becomes another de-facto Lannister.
This isn't so much paying homage to historical dramas as it is just continually keeping characters flat. And from what I've heard from people who have read the books, and even like the books, is that this continues to go on for three more books.
Again, I'm going to give the books more of a shot because I think it may do a better job of characterizing who everyone is and maybe shedding light on some of the internal conflicts the characters go through, and it might make them a bit more three-dimensional.
Quote from: Peregrin;465486And from what I've heard from people who have read the books, and even like the books, is that this continues to go on for three more books.
This is demonstrably false, but as i won't enter spoiler territory for you, you'll have to take my word for it. :)
Quote from: Peregrin;465486Tyrion being knocked out before the battle for apprently no reason. He's constantly trying to get ahead but continually denied for no other reason than to defy heroic tropes. He could have made a decent general and his character could have evolved a bit, but instead they deny his character this chance and his character remains flat.
I took this for a homage to Bilbo getting k/o'ed at the battle of the five armies and thought it was a funny turn. It seems to me that his evolution is being made Hand in stead of Tywin, but again I don't know anything that happens after the end of the season.
Quote from: Peregrin;465486Joffrey had a few seconds where he was like "Wait, why is Stark saying I'm not the true heir??", which would have made for an interesting character development, but instead they brush it off and he just remains the same without any more interesting internal conflicts that could add more dimensions to his character. He becomes another de-facto Lannister.
If this never pans out, yes, that would be a wasted opportunity. (That moment of realization might have had something to do with his decision to override Cersei and have Ned killed, maybe, though? It would be interesting to later find some reference to that, but I would not really expect it either.)
Quote from: Peregrin;465486This isn't so much paying homage to historical dramas as it is just continually keeping characters flat.
I don't think it's a homagebut I don't think it's "keeping characters flat" either, I just mean to say that there are a large number of characters no one of which seems to be the main central figure, and as characters come and go not every potential plot thread for every character is going to come to fruition; the value of some of them is going to vary from taste to taste - myself I would be interested in seeing Joffrey address his heritage but if Tyrion proved to be a great battle hero I think I would have found that corny.
Quote from: One Horse Town;465487This is demonstrably false, but as i won't enter spoiler territory for you, you'll have to take my word for it. :)
Alright.
I already own the first book, so I'm at least committed to finishing that. It's not like I don't want to like the series, either, as medieval-esque low-magic fantasy is right up my alley.
Quote from: Cole;465488I don't think it's a homagebut I don't think it's "keeping characters flat" either, I just mean to say that there are a large number of characters no one of which seems to be the main central figure, and as characters come and go not every potential plot thread for every character is going to come to fruition; the value of some of them is going to vary from taste to taste - myself I would be interested in seeing Joffrey address his heritage but if Tyrion proved to be a great battle hero I think I would have found that corny.
I guess so.
I still enjoyed the series. There was a lot to like, for all of my complaints. I've just been trying to figure out what's bugging me, and why other people don't seem to like it so much. Maybe I'm being a bit zealous since I'm so used to most fantasy fiction being throw-away.
To get slightly back to the original question, I'm British. As Ian Warner said earlier in the thread, we use swearing as whitespace. I find the slight preciousness amongst non-Commonwealth Anglo-Saxons about swearing (fuck it, North-Americans, you know who you are) to be hilarious.
Most Scandanavians I know (mainly though MMOs) are very fluent in English-swearing.
That said, in normal RPG rulebooks? Probably not. In flavour and atmospheric text, definitely.
Best,
D.
Quote from: Peregrin;465331When you're a little kid, you want obvious big bad evils (like the original Star Wars), you want globe-hopping plots and adventure, not characters examining their political agendas in a godless world where nearly everyone's a jerk.
I beg to differ.
Game of Thrones is a POLYTHEIST world where everyone's a jerk. :D
JG
I'm pretty sure that "polytheist" and "godless" are not necessarily incompatible statements. Both in the literal sense and in the social sense.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;465657I'm pretty sure that "polytheist" and "godless" are not necessarily incompatible statements. Both in the literal sense and in the social sense.
RPGPundit
Well, in GoT prayers DO work. That may only be because the "magic level" is going up since the birth of the dragons, but most people believe in some kind of god. Which of course has nothing to do with the level of cursing in the series.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;465758Well, in GoT prayers DO work. That may only be because the "magic level" is going up since the birth of the dragons, but most people believe in some kind of god. Which of course has nothing to do with the level of cursing in the series.
JG
Hmm. Well, up till now in the TV show I haven't seen anything that would indicate the literal existence of the gods. Maybe its in the novels, but so far the magic I've seen in the show has all been of the "arcane" variety with no direct divine intervention I could see.
RPGPundit
There is this wonderful scene in Vampire Slayer where the villain questions the existance of the Warhammer World gods.
I think he has a point. Priest powers have been bound spells for more editions than I can remember and there are a few pieces of fluf that hint that the "blessings of sigmar" are just the Chaos gods playing silly buggers!
Quote from: RPGPundit;465883Hmm. Well, up till now in the TV show I haven't seen anything that would indicate the literal existence of the gods. Maybe its in the novels, but so far the magic I've seen in the show has all been of the "arcane" variety with no direct divine intervention I could see.
RPGPundit
Well, that's my point. "Godless world" could mean one of two things. It means either that people don't believe in gods- which is not the case in GoT- or that there ARE no gods. The idea that people can pray to gods and get magical results doesn't necessarily mean that the gods are out there as objective entities- like I said, it could just mean the "magic level" is going up and thus such prayers have results. But in that case it's not a godless world, in that people DO believe in gods and have reason to believe that their prayers bear fruit - even if the gods aren't actually there.
JG
Some people in ASOIAF believe in gods, and some don't (Sandor Clegane, a bunch of the Night Watch, etc.) Whether the gods exist remains an open question, as is the question of whether they are actually answering prayers.
ASOIAF is mostly monotheist / henotheist, btw, at least in Westeros. The seven are no more separate gods than the Holy Spirit and Jesus are in Catholicism (in fact, the relationship between the parts is identical).
The god with the most evidence for his existence is Rh'llor. Melisandre clearly has some sort of magical power, which she attributes to him. Still, she comes from Asshai and it might be a cover for witchcraft except that Thoros of Myr, a guy who notoriously has no magic at all at the start of the series, is able to bring Beric Dondarrion and Catelyn Stark back to life basically by accident (and is then able to continue doing so).
Spoileriffic batman!
Fuck people who care about spoilers.
Really, we're not going to start enforcing "spoiler policies" around here. If someone wants to put spoiler warnings in their post, that's fine; but I'm not going to go apeshit about it.
RPGPundit
Well, excuse me, i'm sure.
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;466109Fuck people who care about spoilers.
That's incredibly dickish. Would it seriously kill you to write spoiler before posting one?
Quote from: danbuter;466151That's incredibly dickish. Would it seriously kill you to write spoiler before posting one?
Would it kill you to engage with a work of art in a state other than total ignorance of it?
Before we get too worked up about "spoilers", we may want to remember that the "spoiler" here was something that happened in a book that was published in the year 2000 - over 10 years ago.
It's one thing to say something about something that hasn't happened yet or about a book that just got released. It's another to whine because 10 years later somebody mentions something about a book that's been out over a decade because you haven't gotten around to reading it yet.
More "spoilers":
* Harry kills Voldemort, marries the Weasely girl
* Vader is really Luke's father
* The martians die from getting a cold
* Beowulf kills the shit out of Grendel
* Jesus dies but is ressurrected
There is that as well.
Let me clarify for the hard of reading.
my "spoileriffic batman!" post was a statement of fact.
It was not -
A) A knock on pseudo.
B) A comment on the pros and cons of spoilers generally, nor
C) was it anything about fucking site policy, so i dunno what Pundit was whittering on about.
Quote from: jgants;466154Before we get too worked up about "spoilers", we may want to remember that the "spoiler" here was something that happened in a book that was published in the year 2000 - over 10 years ago.
Except on this very page someone is talking about reading book one. Oh wait, I forgot what site this is. Civility isn't needed.
Quote from: danbuter;466157Except on this very page someone is talking about reading book one. Oh wait, I forgot what site this is. Civility isn't needed.
So if we're talking about the One Ring RPG and someone mentions they finally got around to reading The Hobbit after 74 years, it instantly becomes rude to mention how Thorin gets killed?
There's no "statute of limitations" then? All conversation should just stop no matter how old the work is being discussed?
Does this work for non-fiction as well? Can we freely discuss Watergate, or do I need to make sure no one is reading a book about Nixon first?
The whole concept is silly. Particularly in this case, since it is not only one of the more popular fantasy series of books, but has been adapted to two different RPGs already with plenty of threads on every RPG site talking about adapting it to different systems. If you are reading an old and popular book that tends to get adapted to RPGs and don't want to be spoiled, the onus is kind of on you to avoid threads when the topic comes up.
Talk about it all you want. Just don't be too lazy to type spoilers before you do. I know that's really difficult for you, and I wouldn't want you to strain yourself, but it would be courteous.
Also, Rosebud was Kane's sled.
JG
they bring Jesus back
Quote from: James Gillen;466328Also, Rosebud was Kane's sled.
JG
Solomon Kane had a
sled?
Quote from: One Horse Town;466331Solomon Kane had a sled?
SPOILERS, man.
Quote from: Cole;466329they bring Jesus back
REVELATIONS: Jesus is back... and this time it's
personal.
Quote from: One Horse Town;466156C) was it anything about fucking site policy, so i dunno what Pundit was whittering on about.
I wasn't responding to you personally; just to the comment in general; I think we all know by now that mods here do not generally issue edicts in-thread on theRPGsite, I don't think anyone was mistaking your comment for a tangency-esque red-text warning or anything. I just felt it was a good opportunity to make it known that around here "spoilers" are a matter of courtesy, not obligation.
RPGPundit
Quote from: jgants;466154More "spoilers":
* Harry kills Voldemort, marries the Weasely girl
Goddammit, you couldn't wait until I finished grad school in two fucking months??? *sigh*
Quote from: ggroy;464918I usually try to avoid profanity when I'm at a game table, especially when I'm the DM.
As GM or player, I always avoid swearing at the game table, unless speaking in-character & it's necessary for the character role - which is rare (certainly very rare in fantasy games like D&D). People sometimes seem surprised when eg they're having a drink with me out of game and hear me swearing - might be my professorial demeanour.