Like it says really, I played it as my first rpg but I don't remember it at all.  I love RC, but that was really an offshoot of its own.

So, what predated AD&D and how did it differ?

Quote from: BalbinusLike it says really, I played it as my first rpg but I don't remember it at all.  I love RC, but that was really an offshoot of its own.

So, what predated AD&D and how did it differ?

Er...prior to the Rules Compendium (D&D) there were several editions of Basic D&D (and the series, Expert, Master), and there was AD&D (1E) and both of their predecessors Gold Box D&D, which was predated by an earlier, less polished boxed D&D )


So it look like this


                 D&D

              Revised D&D


                    Split

Basic D&D------------Advanced D&D 1E


Revised Basic                

Revised Basic---------Revised Advanced (New Cover Art, gold spine)


Rules Compendium-----2End Edition D&D<

(Roughly speaking)




Now differences there were quite a few.

Gold Box D&D had "Fighting Men", and was still heavily referring to Chainmail, it included IIRC Rangers, and a few other variations.


Basic D&D stripped down to the core classes (Fighter, Mage, Thief, Cleric) but dropped most of the unique "models", and turned the Elf (Fighting Man/Mage) into a single class--Elf, and so on.


Advanced D&D, maintained some of the splits of advanced classes (Ranger) added some more--Monk, Bard, Assassin, as well as Psionics.



My memory may not be perfect on this.

Both followed similar lineage and were obviously related but one kept optional rules, and simpler basis (Basic) yet provided very clear information on what to do/playing. While Advanced included more rules, and charts, and some information but didn't quite detail playing as clearly.

I remember slightly differently. White box had Fighting-Men, Magic-Users, Clerics, Dwarves, Elves, and Hobbits. I can't speak to how it worked with Chainmail, but with the--barely decipherable--combat rules that eventually became standard, there was no differentiation between weapons other than by cost. (And maybe weight? I don't recall any encumbrance rules and in fact even into AD&D it was common among people I played with to not worry about it at all, so that people were carrying around astronomical quantities of metal coins as well as half a dozen magical weapons.)

Ah, before continuing, I want to link a really fine overview of the various editions: Mark Bertenshaw's Dungeons & Dragons Review Guide. In fact, I'm going to stop now because I'm bound to make mistakes that could easily be avoided just by reading Mark's research, combined with rdushay's D&D White Box Review and the overviews of the D&D printings at the Acaeum.

I'm sure I'm not the only old-timer here but I still have the old D&D white box set along with the supplements, as well as chainmail.  It has been a long long time but I seem to recall that Elliott has it right about the classes and races.  I also seem to remember that they only used D6 for hit points regardless of class.

I don't recall about the weapon damage specifically but I know that there weren't all the weapons listed in AD&D and there were way fewer spells.  I would be glad to dig the white box out when I get home if you are really interested in specifics.

Quote from: Elliot WilenI don't recall any encumbrance rules and in fact even into AD&D it was common among people I played with to not worry about it at all, so that people were carrying around astronomical quantities of metal coins as well as half a dozen magical weapons.

...and using 13-foot-long weapons in 5-foot-wide underground passages.  Yeah, there were some bumps in the road that needed to be smoothed out.

My D&D experience was limited to 1st edition AD&D.  I knew that Basic D&D was out there, and it made sense to me that it existed as a gateway product for what I took to be the primary product.  What continued to baffle me for the duration of my play was that both products were being supported as separate lines, that one seemed to compete with the other.  Every now and then, my friends and I would run across someone who played Basic, and it was a bit like talking with someone who ostensibly speaks the same language, but in a nearly-unintelligible dialect -- like it was missing all of the hard consonants that distinguished one sound from another.

By the time the 2nd edition rules sets came along, I had long since moved on to other games.  I had to concede that the production values had clearly improved, but it seemed so...quaint by that point.

!i!

Quote from: GrimjackI also seem to remember that they only used D6 for hit points regardless of class.

This had completely slipped my mind but according to the linked overviews, you're correct. HP in original D&D were generated using D6 +/- some modifier, with the formula varying by class/level. Only with Greyhawk was the now standard introduced of having 1 HD per level, with the type of HD varying by class.

Reading the overviews also reminds me of a rule of chargen that I think disappeared in later editions, namely that you could trade characteristic points on a 2 for 1 basis out of certain characteristics into your prime requisite.

QuoteI don't recall about the weapon damage specifically but I know that there weren't all the weapons listed in AD&D and there were way fewer spells.

Weapons were all d6, no modifier for anything except possibly magic bonus, until Greyhawk.

Really, Greyhawk is where D&D becomes recognizable. It added the Paladins and Thieves, strength bonuses, even the weapon to hit bonus vs. armor type--which was pretty usable if you had the Dungeon Tac Cards from Judge's Guild. Blackmoor added Assassin, Monk, & Druid but those were never popular classes among the people I played with. On the other hand I remember being very excited when the Ranger was finally introduced in the AD&D PHB.

Eldritch Wizardry did have a titillating cover, plus the psionics & mindflayers (and other psionic-related monsters) which became standards later on, but psionics as written were game-breaking...and probably remained so into AD&D 1e. We didn't use 'em.

Man, I can't believe how much of this has slipped my mind over the years.  Thanks for the refresher Elliot.  I also recall that God, Demigods & Heroes had quite a selection of deities from popular fantasy fiction like Conan and Elric, some of which were carried over to AD&D but then got cut in later editions.

I actually found a lot of my old gaming stuff in the basement not too long ago so I'm going to have to go through and read these and all of the other old TSR stuff I found.  Classic DnD may seem archaic by todays standards but back in the day it was a lot of fun running it with Judges Guild material.

This thread prompted me to pull out the old books and read them and it was really entertaining to see just how far RPG games have come since I bought D&D back in the 70's.  To borrow an overused phrase, there was a certain elegant simplicity to the rules that you just don't see anymore.  I just checked out the first two books and although some of this stuff was already mentioned by Elliot I'll reiterate the points that struck me.

Character classes: Fighter, Magic User, Cleric.  All used 6 sided hit dice.
Character Races: The book says you can use any race but the only specifically mentioned are human, elf, dwarf, and hobbit.
Elves: Can only be fighters or magic users and have level restrictions in both.  Elves are automatically dual class characters (if that is the right term) in that they can be both fighters and magic users but must switch between them for an entire adventure.
Dwarves: can only be fighters limited to level 6.
Hobbits: can only be fighters.
Humans are the only race that can be clerics.

One very interesting thing (to me at least) I noticed was that the original combat system for D&D was derived from chainmail.  The D20 system that D&D is famous for was actually presented as an alternate rule.

I also forgot that D&D had the original "mook rule" or whatever the term is, in that monsters could attack one "normal human" for each hit dice the monster possesses.

I can't believe that it has been 30+ years since I first started playing D&D but re-reading all the old books reminded me how innovative it was at the time.

Quote from: GrimjackOne very interesting thing (to me at least) I noticed was that the original combat system for D&D was derived from chainmail.  The D20 system that D&D is famous for was actually presented as an alternate rule.

AFAIK nobody really used Chainmail for combat (even the designers) and it's somewhat unclear *what* combat system from Chainmail you're supposed to use. OTOH racial bonuses and I think initiative etc. are only in Chainmail. Avalon Hill's Outdoor Survival (aka Blair Witch Camping as the death rate in that game is higher than most D&D campaigns!) was supposed to provide the outdoor terrain.

FWIW Empire of the Petal Throne provides a single book (at least in its currently available forms) self contained variant of OD&D with some extra bits like mass combat and handling provinces. Plus lots of gonzo monsters and magic items to add spice to an existing campaign. It's also the only way currently to legally get OD&D  and is available in print and on PDF. :cool: :pundit:

Quote from: Casey777AFAIK nobody really used Chainmail for combat (even the designers) and it's somewhat unclear *what* combat system from Chainmail you're supposed to use. OTOH racial bonuses and I think initiative etc. are only in Chainmail. Avalon Hill's Outdoor Survival (aka Blair Witch Camping as the death rate in that game is higher than most D&D campaigns!) was supposed to provide the outdoor terrain.

FWIW Empire of the Petal Throne provides a single book (at least in its currently available forms) self contained variant of OD&D with some extra bits like mass combat and handling provinces. Plus lots of gonzo monsters and magic items to add spice to an existing campaign. It's also the only way currently to legally get OD&D  and is available in print and on PDF. :cool: :pundit:

My recollection is the same, I bought Chainmail but I can't remember ever using the combat system for D&D either or knowing anyone else who did, which is why I was so surprised when I read that D20 was supposed to be the "alternate" system.  The character level charts actually even list the Chainmail equivalent "Fighting Capability" (for instance a sixth level fighter fights as "hero +1 or 5 men).  I guess it actually makes sense though since the D&D game was originally billed as: "Rules for Fantastic Medieval Wargames Campaigns Playable with Paper and Pencil and Miniature Figures".

The system is explained further, in book 3 under "Land Combat", which states: "The basic system is that from CHAINMAIL, with one figure representing one man or creature.  Melee can be conducted with the combat table given in Volume ! or by the CHAINMAIL system, with scores equalling a drive back or kill equal only to a hit."

Good point about EPT and the D20 system, that was the second RPG I bought (and a very cool one at that) and I think that, along with Judges Guild, may be why I always thought of D20 as the true combat system for D&D.

Still, I'm half tempted to pull out Chainmail and give it a try.  I remember running a miniature battle with the system once but never a D&D game.

Quote from: BalbinusLike it says really, I played it as my first rpg but I don't remember it at all.  I love RC, but that was really an offshoot of its own.

So, what predated AD&D and how did it differ?

The RC was/is a compilation of the rules from (IIRC) the Blue, Red, Black, and Gold box sets.  Prior to this color scheme D&D was released in a rather uninspiring pinkish box set with typical 80s era low budget game art (IE: Not from a name artist like Boris or Frazetta).  However prior to this there was, as I am sure it's been stated, the white box set; which either was or wasn't related to chainmail depending on what grognard you ask.

The rule expansion booklets, like Eldritch Wizardry et al, were really the framework for what became AD&D but with vastly simpler rules.  *blinks*  Yeah, sure, okay I'll stand by that last remark.

Let's see. . The game was for ages 12 and up. . suggested you have drafting equipment and colored pencils. . and you had three character types: Fighting-Men, Magic-Users, adn Clerics.  There were also Dwarves, Elves, and Halflings and, the bane of DMs for years to come, these rules actually suggested there was no reason why a player couldn't play a dragon (albeit a "young" one) in the game.  As a player character.  :rolleyes:

Alignment was rather Warhammer-like in that it was just Law, Neutrality, and Chaos.  (Evil Priests were on the side of Chaos, in case anyone was wondering.)

Surprisingly the stats were the same as found in (A)D&D.

The beginnings of THAC0 were to be found in the Attack Matrix.

The spell lists were surprisingly similar to those in AD&D.

The difference between a beutiful witch and an amazon, according to the drawings, were amazons went topless.  (Yeah, try that TODAY!)

So, yeah, there ya go.  

You forgot green.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditYou forgot green.

Not only that, but Gold (= Immortal Set) was not part of the RC.

Only Red (Basic), Blue (Expert), Green (Companion) and Black (Master).

Dirk
didn't like RC as much as he desperately wanted

Quote from: Dirk RemmeckeNot only that, but Gold (= Immortal Set) was not part of the RC.

Only Red (Basic), Blue (Expert), Green (Companion) and Black (Master).

Dirk
didn't like RC as much as he desperately wanted

Green?  I swear I don't remember green.  I do remember the Companion set, if vaguely.  It was greeen?  Hmph.

Do I at least get points for remembering there was a Immortal rule set, even if my recollection of what is in the RC is, well, it's a great cola.  Used to drink it a lot back in the day when we gamed.

What?

Quote from: Elliot WilenI remember slightly differently. White box had Fighting-Men, Magic-Users, Clerics, Dwarves, Elves, and Hobbits. I can't speak to how it worked with Chainmail, but with the--barely decipherable--combat rules that eventually became standard, there was no differentiation between weapons other than by cost. (And maybe weight? I don't recall any encumbrance rules and in fact even into AD&D it was common among people I played with to not worry about it at all, so that people were carrying around astronomical quantities of metal coins as well as half a dozen magical weapons.)

That describes the version that I own to a tee.