This is probably the least effectively applied cultural-analogy setting, certainly as far as D&D goes. The default version of this, "Maztica", was so awful that it was actually less well done than the Aztec-analogy in the Mystara Hollow-World setting, and that one was populated by evil pale-skinned elves!
And there really aren't any Inca or Maya settings at all.
Is this an untapped market? Or just a market that has no audience?
Love the idea of a good setting book for that period or fantasy analogue.
Never be something I could put together for myself, I lack the background or time to do the research necessary to do it justice.
lol I wonder if I could convince Pete and Loz at DM to take a crack at it.
One of my favourites was the Spirit Warriors expansion book for the mecha minis game Mecha! which seems to have died out right after Spirit Warriors. An overall pre-columbian Aztec civilization transplanted to an aliens starsystem and given Aztec themed mecha to fight wars and supply the gods that brought them there with sacrifices.
Dragon issue 70 had the Mechica module which felt alot better than the Maztica setting book for FR.
Hollow world had the Sons of Azca but I didnt like it much.
Theres Gurps Aztecs apparently. Never seen so cant say how good it is.
Timemaster apparently has an Aztec themed module?
There's Totems of the Dead. Technically it's Pre-Columbian Americas...of the Hyborean Age (with serial numbers filed off) :D.
I like this book...fantasy versions of real-world cultures generally make me cringe with embarrassment for the authors.
GURPS Aztecs is pretty good. (Though certainly not perfect. The cover artist took some liberties with historical and archaeological source material for example.) The rest are basically all b.s. Seems people aren't willing or able to do the necessary research for it and be sufficiently critical of simplistic, sensationalist or romanticized/hippie/New Age-infested sources. This is even worse when it comes to the Maya, where ignorance is pretty much the norm.
Quote from: HorusArisen;1021103Love the idea of a good setting book for that period or fantasy analogue.
Never be something I could put together for myself, I lack the background or time to do the research necessary to do it justice.
lol I wonder if I could convince Pete and Loz at DM to take a crack at it.
and I would buy it in a heartbeat. It would be Monster Island, the real world edition ;)
Seriously, though, one of my favorite cultures that is desperately under utilized.
It would be great to have a quality book detailing Pre-Colombian civilization(I have been waiting for this for a long time). It would be a welcome addition to my gaming books...!!! There is some much there. The history, mythology could make for a fantastic book.
H:0)
The Aztec/Inca/Maya potential has really been overlooked. There are so many other possibilities too. The Anasazi mystery. The Nazca Lines truth. One could even work in the Bermuda Triangle and a whole lot of pirate lore.
I wrote Points of Light 2: The Sunrise Sea with four setting with a Age of Exploration theme. However I wrote them to be evocative of historical situations not a direct take like what the Pundit does. For example in Golden Shores the natives are similar to Bronze Age Mycenae Greeks. The Misty Isles more relies on pulp jungle adventure with a dash of Lovecraft and 17th century spice trade wars. The cultures in Amacui are closest to historical new world cultures. With the empire being a mishmash of Aztec, Mayan and Incan elements. And the coastal tribe like the Mayans after they abandoned the cities.
- The Golden Shores: A land in the midst of being colonized, where adventurers can encounter unknown cultures, old enemies, and battle a darkness that has haunted the land for millennia.
- Amacui: A frontier land with only a single trading post representing the civilized world, but there are many ruins to explore and new civilizations to discover.
- The Misty Isles: The greatest threat to exploration is not the natives or 'things man is not meant to know,' but enemies from the old world. Here in the Misty Isles, enemies from different realms and factions fight amid the jungles and islands.
- Mazatl, the Realm of the Bat God: Rising from the vast Jungles of Zaracar is a massive shield volcano. Here the blood god, Azartac, lives in the city of Mazatl in the volcano's caldera.
Based on larger media - i.e. books, movies, and comics - there seems to be little interest in pre-Columbian America as a setting, which is a shame. I ran a campaign which was technically alternate history pre-Columbian, but it did focus on Icelandic settlers in the Hudson river valley, starting in 1392. So it wasn't purely native. Still, there was a lot of action with the surrounding people and politics - with ongoing tensions between the encroaching Haudenosaunee and the various Algonquian states in the area.
I'd definitely be interested in a Mesoamerican or Andean setting. The problem is how to get player buy-in to a setting that is very unfamiliar to them. I think this can be difficult for North American players to connect to. At least with the Hudson river valley, there were familiar characters of those backgrounds from media in the colonial era - i.e. Squanto, Pocahantas, Powhatan, Chingachgook, etc.
I'd be interested in people's ideas about how to make characters and adventures more accessible in an Andean or Mesoamerican game. For example, there's a historical fiction novel - Servant of the Underworld - set in the Aztec empire, that uses murder mystery genre tropes. I think I would try to connect a game in such a setting to a more familiar genre, but I'm not sure what.
Quote from: jhkim;1021388Based on larger media - i.e. books, movies, and comics - there seems to be little interest in pre-Columbian America as a setting, which is a shame.
Some interest. Apocalypto did pretty well both critically and financially. The Fountain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fountain#Tom%C3%A1s_the_conquistador) has some magical Mayans meet trippy conquistador scenes and the Spanish film Even the Rain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Even_the_Rain#Plot) seems like it would have something useful for the period of first contact. And here's a list of 94 Aztec, Maya, and Inca novels (https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/41555.Aztec_Maya_Inca_Fiction).
North American Native Americans are pretty well represented, in comparison. But that isn't saying much. It's also often a homogenized Inuit, Sioux, or Iroquois pastiche.
Also, in practice, I've noticed that what at first is a fun travelogue for players quickly becomes rather alien to the point where they disengage. Human society can be organized in vastly different ways, and outside a few touchstone tropes people really just want to play modern cosmopolitan Ren Faire dress up. (Basically no one wants to give up the "Present"-ism mindset.) You see this especially with time period pieces, especially the European Middle Ages (a huge stretch of time). That's why I am curious about how people are receiving Lion & Dragon -- and whether they'll even try to employ its verisimilitude.
I, for one, would be all over that.
Although ideally what I'd want is a Mysterious Cities of Gold (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mysterious_Cities_of_Gold) setting: Incas, conquistadors, El Dorado times seven, troglodytic "Olmecs", the lost civilizations of Mu and Atlantis, hints of an ancient nuclear war between them, and magitech. Admittedly I grew up with this on Saturday morning cartoons.
Quote from: Opaopajr;1021479North American Native Americans are pretty well represented, in comparison. But that isn't saying much. It's also often a homogenized Inuit, Sioux, or Iroquois pastiche.
I wonder how much of that is based on familiarity and the English monolinguism of many US citizens. And if we exclude Mexico, North Americans are generally somewhat familiar with the Indians of North America but not as familiar with those of Mesoamerica and pretty unfamiliar with the many tribes of South America.
Isn't "Tekumel/Empire of the Petal Throne" kinda sorta a take on South American Indian civilizations?
I know the setting is science fiction-afied and has other influences, but the art always struck me as very Inca/Aztec/Olmec/etc influenced.
P.S. I am not well versed in the Tekumel setting so perhaps I'm wrong on this.
As a local experet, Chirine should weigh in on this.
Tekumel always struck me as having a somewhat Mesoamerican look as well. Maybe it was the feathered helmets. Though maybe part of that was the knowledge that there (mostly) weren't any riding animals on Tekumel which is like the pre-contact Americas. But there's also a lot of SE Asian influence in Tekumel.
Quote from: Barbatruc;1021550I, for one, would be all over that.
Although ideally what I'd want is a Mysterious Cities of Gold (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mysterious_Cities_of_Gold) setting: Incas, conquistadors, El Dorado times seven, troglodytic "Olmecs", the lost civilizations of Mu and Atlantis, hints of an ancient nuclear war between them, and magitech. Admittedly I grew up with this on Saturday morning cartoons.
Ummm. okay. Here you go!
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0961077069/waynesworldof-20
reference:
http://www.waynesbooks.com/atlantis.html
The Inca always seemed to be kinda a boring culture, to be honest. The most exciting thing they ever did was their irrigation of mountains using terraces. Which is great if you are into farming, I guess, but....
Quote from: JeremyR;1021883The Inca always seemed to be kinda a boring culture, to be honest. The most exciting thing they ever did was their irrigation of mountains using terraces. Which is great if you are into farming, I guess, but....
The interesting part for me about the Inca is the giant empire-building - how Pachacuti and his son Huayna went from a little city-state to one of the largest nations in just two generations. We're lacking most of the details about how that happened, but it seems like a big deal and a cool dynamic setting.
I know that some sources give the impression of native cultures that they were peaceful and static doing nothing new until Europeans came along, but that's often a result of flawed history.
The knots (https://www.ancient.eu/Quipu/) interest me. Well that and the organization of their empire.
I never read GURPS Aztecs, but I bet it would be good, given the record of most of the rest of their historical sourcebooks.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1022216I never read GURPS Aztecs, but I bet it would be good, given the record of most of the rest of their historical sourcebooks.
The fragmentary nature of data there is on the Aztecs (even moreso for other precolumbian peoples) makes it somewhat tricky to turn it into something that's actually playable. GURPS Aztecs achieves this admirably.
I think it would be far more difficult to pull this off when dealing with the Inca.
Let alone covering a broad subject such as Maya civilisation, which would cover multiple culturally related and co-existing but differing societies during multiple periods of history. The subject matter would also be different: the Maya are a group of culturally and linguistically related peoples, whereas the Aztecs were a multi-ethnic society and a clear political entity (the so-called Aztec Triple Alliance), of which there were many more in the Mesoamerican culture area. Some of these were in fact Maya. GURPS Aztecs touches on this, by the way.
Quote from: Bren;1021860As a local experet, Chirine should weigh in on this.
Tekumel always struck me as having a somewhat Mesoamerican look as well. Maybe it was the feathered helmets. Though maybe part of that was the knowledge that there (mostly) weren't any riding animals on Tekumel which is like the pre-contact Americas. But there's also a lot of SE Asian influence in Tekumel.
It is; Phil was originally going to be a specialist in Meso-American anthropology - he helped decipher the Maya glyphs, for example, and knew quite a few of the leading people in the field - and it has had a very, very strong influence on his world; his ceremonial combats are the same as the Flower Wars, for example. (Although s did fight a few of the Venus Wars, too.) He spoke the languages quite well, and his library on the subject was just as comprehensive and complete as his Ancient Egyptian collection.
Tekumel is a blender; Meso-America, Mughal India, Byzantine Rome, Imperial China, and the Sword-and-Planet-Romance of the pulps.. It's what I like about it; I have no problems with the multiple cultures.
Quote from: GameDaddy;1021870Ummm. okay. Here you go!
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0961077069/waynesworldof-20
reference:
http://www.waynesbooks.com/atlantis.html
Thanks! I'm aware of some of this stuff, but I'm too lazy to kitbash anything out of it, and if I wasn't I'd be more inclined to start from the conquistador end for reasons I don't think I could begin to explain.
GURPS Aztecs is good. I bought it as a gift for a GM friend just because it was interesting.
Also there are nice fantasy versions of such cultures done for Illwinter's Dominions series and Conquest of Elysium fantasy computer-games, which give detailed character templates, magic, summons and history and some gods and stuff. There are several versions, different for each game and for the various epochs in the Dominions series, including things like the sunken underwater ghost nation (iirc, I haven't played that nation recently but I think it combined Atlantis and Oceania with Mictlan).
Quote from: 3rik;1022280The fragmentary nature of data there is on the Aztecs (even moreso for other precolumbian peoples) makes it somewhat tricky to turn it into something that's actually playable. GURPS Aztecs achieves this admirably.
I think it would be far more difficult to pull this off when dealing with the Inca.
It depends on how one approaches the material. The fragmentary nature of the data in one sense means that there is a lot of room for interpolation to create something playable. That is, I can create a version of the Incas that is most favorable to the sorts of adventures I want. However, some people have problems with invented material like this. They only want to play with verified historical elements, in which case, yes, it is more difficult.
I don't have my copy of GURPS Aztecs handy, but I recall it having a nice background on the setting - but it wasn't as solid on the style and types of adventures to have. However, that's based on reading a while ago. I'll post more when I can get to my copy.
Quote from: 3rik;1022280The fragmentary nature of data there is on the Aztecs (even moreso for other precolumbian peoples) makes it somewhat tricky to turn it into something that's actually playable. GURPS Aztecs achieves this admirably.
I think it would be far more difficult to pull this off when dealing with the Inca.
Let alone covering a broad subject such as Maya civilisation, which would cover multiple culturally related and co-existing but differing societies during multiple periods of history. The subject matter would also be different: the Maya are a group of culturally and linguistically related peoples, whereas the Aztecs were a multi-ethnic society and a clear political entity (the so-called Aztec Triple Alliance), of which there were many more in the Mesoamerican culture area. Some of these were in fact Maya. GURPS Aztecs touches on this, by the way.
The Aztecs were the most playable ones anyways.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1022970The Aztecs were the most playable ones anyways.
I've also always been intrigued by a rival state of the Aztec Triple Alliance that many people are unfamiliar with, the Tarascans (Purépecha), which was based in present-day Michoacán. They are also addressed in GURPS Aztecs. It's simply the quintessential resource if you want to run historical fantasy in a Post-classic Period Mesoamerican setting.
I more or less prepared to run this as a side-setting to a long-running fantasy earth campaign I ran using GURPS, but the party didn't really go for it so I can't tell you how good of an idea it was. But I was satisfied that you could stitch together something pretty good combining GURPS Aztecs, Stone Age and elements of Wild West.
City-states raiding and sacrificing their neighbors is big fun for an rpg setting, and I'm all in favor of a mishmash of cultures to make a good game.
I'm running a fantasy game, not a educational cultural simulation.
Quote from: darthfozzywig;1023338City-states raiding and sacrificing their neighbors is big fun for an rpg setting, and I'm all in favor of a mishmash of cultures to make a good game.
I'm running a fantasy game, not a educational cultural simulation.
Then you can just throw together whatever you think will be fun.
I'd be more inclined to look at an Aztec / Mayan / Incan themed board game than a RPG. However, I think the ideas found in their histories have great potential to be stolen and used in other games.
OK, I've gotten to my copy of GURPS Aztecs.
I think my memory is pretty good. It's an excellent overview of the historical setting, but it doesn't have much on how to make characters and adventures that are fun and compelling. The characters section suggests various professions from physician to courtesan, but it doesn't have cool character archetypes. There are three pages of adventure seeds for the GM, but there is little for the players to show them how playing in this period is fun, and what they should expect from adventures.
Which is to say, I think there's room for more material on how to do that. I actually just saw Apocalypto for the first time recently. I thought it was quite good overall, but it isn't much of a template for continued adventures in such a setting. I'd like to ponder a bit and try to write some ideas up. I'm curious about the Tarascans now.
Perhaps of interest:
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/02/maya-laser-lidar-guatemala-pacunam/
Quote from: jhkim;1023397OK, I've gotten to my copy of GURPS Aztecs.
I think my memory is pretty good. It's an excellent overview of the historical setting, but it doesn't have much on how to make characters and adventures that are fun and compelling. The characters section suggests various professions from physician to courtesan, but it doesn't have cool character archetypes. There are three pages of adventure seeds for the GM, but there is little for the players to show them how playing in this period is fun, and what they should expect from adventures.
Which is to say, I think there's room for more material on how to do that. I actually just saw Apocalypto for the first time recently. I thought it was quite good overall, but it isn't much of a template for continued adventures in such a setting. I'd like to ponder a bit and try to write some ideas up. I'm curious about the Tarascans now.
Historically and archaeologically Apocalypto is a load of rubbish.
Tarascan culture has a markedly different flavour from other Mesoamerican cultures. For example, the Purépecha language is a language isolate, and the ceremonial architecture is also quite distinctive. Unfortunately available data is fragmentary and their pieced-together history limited and highly speculative. The majority of archaeological research concerns itself with more "popular" cultures from central Mexico and the Maya region.
(http://www.brianovercast.com/img/s/v-3/p143771716-3.jpg)
Ruins of ceremonial platforms at Tzintzuntzan, capital of the Tarascan state.
Quote from: 3rik;1023508Historically and archaeologically Apocalypto is a load of rubbish.
But, as a film, it's really good.
Quote from: darthfozzywig;1023338City-states raiding and sacrificing their neighbors is big fun for an rpg setting, and I'm all in favor of a mishmash of cultures to make a good game.
I'm running a fantasy game, not a educational cultural simulation.
As a guy who writes and runs a lot of historical-fantasy I'm a big advocate of individual GMs making as much or as little effort to focus on the history part as they feel is right for their campaign. The idea that you should be guilted into accepting a boring level of CultureWank is just dumb.
TORG had a supplement called Space Gods. During development, it was called Mayan Space Gods. While the main race in it is alien, the style is heavily influenced by Pre-Columbian cultures, with the aliens having come to Earth at one point and influenced Central American peoples. The effect was like Stargate, but Central American. Interestingly, though, the publication of the book predates the Stargate film by a few years. Not the best of the TORG books, though, if you're into that old system.
Quote from: The Black Ferret;1024081TORG had a supplement called Space Gods. During development, it was called Mayan Space Gods. While the main race in it is alien, the style is heavily influenced by Pre-Columbian cultures, with the aliens having come to Earth at one point and influenced Central American peoples. The effect was like Stargate, but Central American. Interestingly, though, the publication of the book predates the Stargate film by a few years. Not the best of the TORG books, though, if you're into that old system.
I never read that one.
Quote from: The Black Ferret;1024081TORG had a supplement called Space Gods. During development, it was called Mayan Space Gods. While the main race in it is alien, the style is heavily influenced by Pre-Columbian cultures, with the aliens having come to Earth at one point and influenced Central American peoples. The effect was like Stargate, but Central American. Interestingly, though, the publication of the book predates the Stargate film by a few years. Not the best of the TORG books, though, if you're into that old system.
I have it, but I can't remember much of the details. As I recall, it had very little from actual Pre-Columbian cultures - at most from pulp visions of them mixed with general flying saucer mythology. The general concept is based on the real-world fringe idea that flying saucer aliens were behind the Nazca lines, pyramids, and others - because there's no way that that primitive Pre-Columbian people could have built them on their own.
As I recall, the Space Gods weren't a part of the invading cosms that are part of the rest of Torg. They're actual aliens who have returned because of the cosm invasion.
Here's a PDF of it, by the way.
http://onyr.free.fr/Torg/Space%20Gods.pdf
Quote from: jhkim;1024579I have it, but I can't remember much of the details. As I recall, it had very little from actual Pre-Columbian cultures - at most from pulp visions of them mixed with general flying saucer mythology. The general concept is based on the real-world fringe idea that flying saucer aliens were behind the Nazca lines, pyramids, and others - because there's no way that that primitive Pre-Columbian people could have built them on their own.
As I recall, the Space Gods weren't a part of the invading cosms that are part of the rest of Torg. They're actual aliens who have returned because of the cosm invasion.
Here's a PDF of it, by the way.
http://onyr.free.fr/Torg/Space%20Gods.pdf
Yeah, I don't recall much of it. Our gaming group play-tested a lot of the TORG books because one of our friends was working for West End at the time. Some books were less rewritten than others along the way. I don't remember if we did much play-testing for Space Gods, but I thought it was a bit more Earth based than the final product turned out to be.
Quote from: soltakss;1023629But, as a film, it's really good.
Too bad it got sold as something it wasn't. I was given the impression it was an epic of the Mayan empire. Instead, it was about a jungle villager having a really bad weekend.
Agreed, good film, but I wish I had been the correct expectations going in.
Quote from: darthfozzywig;1024691Too bad it got sold as something it wasn't. I was given the impression it was an epic of the Mayan empire. Instead, it was about a jungle villager having a really bad weekend.
Agreed, good film, but I wish I had been the correct expectations going in.
Yeah, I was caught by surprise by that as well. I was expecting Mayans, and the protagonists seemed more like Yanomami. It seemed strange to me that there would be nearly uncontacted hunter-gatherers within two days travel of a big city and agricultural center.
The rpg New Fire: Temikamatl Book of Dreams (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/114915/New-Fire-Temikamatl-Book-of-Dreams) is inspired by various Meso-American cultures. I had forgotten I even bought this, as I got it shortly before I moved. Only found it while searching through one of my boxes of rpg stuff today
Quote from: urbwar;1025016The rpg New Fire: Temikamatl Book of Dreams (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/114915/New-Fire-Temikamatl-Book-of-Dreams) is inspired by various Meso-American cultures. I had forgotten I even bought this, as I got it shortly before I moved. Only found it while searching through one of my boxes of rpg stuff today
Huh. Interesting. This flew way under my radar.
Not sure if it's been mentioned by 2nd edition AD&D had some articles in Dragon (207 or 8?) about Native American culture as a gaming world. Along with a few adventures in Dungeon and the 1st edition DDG you've got a framework, but that is a bit more of a heavy lift than an actual sourcebook.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1025403Huh. Interesting. This flew way under my radar.
I found an old thread over on the big purple where I had asked about it. Supposedly the system is "narrativist", so not something you would like. I did get it, but mostly because I was told the book has more devoted to the setting than the system, so it could likely be lifted out for use with another system.
Not an RPG - but the anime Braves of the Six Flowers had a definite Mayan/Aztec vibe. Not the best show - it started off very generic but ended up being an interesting sort of who-done-it.
I remember thinking that the setting would definitely fit an RPG, since the characters were basically a group of adventurers (who were all suspicious of one-another).