TheRPGSite

Split off from Balbinus' thread on genuinely new RPGs.

One of the things that cropped up was police procedural. I've been working on a private investigator game for a bit now. Now the default i was going for was the 1890s and Sherlock Holmes types of characters fighting crime in the colonial empire. Which would be cool...Then my fevered brain started adding to the mix and i considered adding something that i've talked about on this forum before: Grafts (You can view the Fantasy Mecha thread for the idea if you haven't read it already).

So the poll is:

A)Would you like to see a PI game played straight with Sherlock Holmes/Columbo/Piorot type figures foiling the dastadly plots of Moriaty type figures in the 1890s.

or

B) A PI game where an alternate 1890s has resulted in Grafts being possible and Sherlock Holmes/Columbo/Piorot type figures who have augmented hearing/sight/physical abilities foil the dastardly plots of Moriaty types who have had suckers grafted onto them to climb buildings with and have wrist sheaths to hide knives in etc.

or

C) Neither. Not interested in a PI game.

Edit: I should point out that this isn't necessarily about what i should do, 'cos i doubt i'll get that far!, but if the game became available from any source.

Straight PI game, all the way. Hell, if I wanted fantasy PIs I can run that in any one of a dozen different fantasy systems.

a.  B already exists by the way, it's called Rippers and is for Savage Worlds, that said I genuinely just don't see the attraction.

Quote from: Balbinusa.  B already exists by the way, it's called Rippers and is for Savage Worlds, that said I genuinely just don't see the attraction.

Yeah. I was unsure how much rippertech resembled what i was thinking of, to be honest. I don't have enough money to keep up with everything!

Hmm, straight PI work seems to be in the lead at present.

BIGGEST PROBLEM: Most RPGs are stories involving a group of characters.

The typical PI story is normally about a lone individual ...sometimes he or she has a sidekick. The PI doesn't normally have 4 to 5 "sidekicks".


- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarBIGGEST PROBLEM: Most RPGs are stories involving a group of characters.

The typical PI story is normally about a lone individual ...sometimes he or she has a sidekick. The PI doesn't normally have 4 to 5 "sidekicks".


- Ed C.

Yeah. I'm figuring that an option tied to the setting would have to be offered whereby the PCs are part of a 'group'. Kinda like Moonlighting! :D

Quote from: One Horse TownYeah. I'm figuring that an option tied to the setting would have to be offered whereby the PCs are part of a 'group'. Kinda like Moonlighting! :D

Then focus on a detective agency rather than straight PIs. Have rules for generating offices, budgets, staff, and resources, as well as relations with the various authorities in town.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceThen focus on a detective agency rather than straight PIs. Have rules for generating offices, budgets, staff, and resources, as well as relations with the various authorities in town.

-clash

I like the cut of your jib! If this was tbp, lots of people would now come in and say you could do it with Reign...

I'm going to try to actually do this one. The main mechanics are already sorted. Now it's just specifics and flavour! I've gathered a few ideas from a few threads on the design & theory forum, so i guess it's time i put my money where my mouth is.

I think the main stumbling block now is; a specific time period or a generic game that you can slot into any time period you want?

Quote from: One Horse TownI like the cut of your jib! If this was tbp, lots of people would now come in and say you could do it with Reign...

I'm going to try to actually do this one. The main mechanics are already sorted. Now it's just specifics and flavour! I've gathered a few ideas from a few threads on the design & theory forum, so i guess it's time i put my money where my mouth is.

I think the main stumbling block now is; a specific time period or a generic game that you can slot into any time period you want?

My recommendadion would be to make it generic and slot it into a specific time period by example. In other words, make the rules extensible and flexible, but use one period as the baseline.

-clash

You're missing the option for both. I'd enjoy both a straight "real world" style PI game, and a near future cyberpunk style PI game.

Quote from: Balbinusa.  B already exists by the way, it's called Rippers and is for Savage Worlds, that said I genuinely just don't see the attraction.

There is an odd strain among gamers that seems to downright insist that ever game be gonzo'd up somehow, or genre mashup, or whatever other silly thing.

I like that now and again too, but sometimes it would be nice to jsut play something straight once and awhile.

Quote from: flyingmiceThen focus on a detective agency rather than straight PIs. Have rules for generating offices, budgets, staff, and resources, as well as relations with the various authorities in town.

Advice for pursuing this approach, by the way: check out the Continental Op stories by Dashiell Hammett. The Op works for an agency and frequently calls in for back-up, and yet still manages to get into scrapes; the stories are an excellent source of ideas for minor NPCs and resources a detective agency might have access to.

Quote from: WarthurAdvice for pursuing this approach, by the way: check out the Continental Op stories by Dashiell Hammett. The Op works for an agency and frequently calls in for back-up, and yet still manages to get into scrapes; the stories are an excellent source of ideas for minor NPCs and resources a detective agency might have access to.

Besides, they are absolutely brilliant examples of the Hard-boiled genre! Fantastic stuff!

Remember links to Lawyers offices too!

-clash

Thanks. I'll check those out. As far as links to other organisations go, there's a couple of things i'm working on. Part of the standard 'investigation template' that i'm aiming to have cases follow is the Consult stage. This is where our intrepid investigators track down experts that can help them with the case (if they don't have the relevant knowledge themselves), talk to their contacts in the police/law office/pathology labs etc. Indeed the investigators could have followed those careers themselves before going the gumshoe route. I'm tending towards abstracting the contacts at the moment although of course in play that can change in a heartbeat. Shit, i've really got a game already (7 or 8 pages!), but it needs a hell of a lot of expansion, explanation and extrapolation. Along with a few other e's.

I had started out with the name Bloodhounds, but, Hmm...Gumshoe.

Quote from: flyingmiceThen focus on a detective agency rather than straight PIs. Have rules for generating offices, budgets, staff, and resources, as well as relations with the various authorities in town.

In Harm's Way: A Dame and a Dick? :p

Quote from: Kyle AaronIn Harm's Way: A Dame and a Dick? :p

 Yep - those two always seem to come together.

CSI, for all that it's mediocre authoritarian propaganda, does show how you can have a core "team" of main characters who investigate and solve crimes. Everyone gets certain specialties, but the specialties overlap a great deal. The characters' technical skills are interchangeable, and instead the character of the case itself determines which personalities are appropriate to which part. Sometimes it's Joe who talks to the suspect because Joe's mom was raped when he was young, and the case involves confronting an unrepentant date-rapist. Sometimes it's Pete because Pete has a daughter he worries could end up in the clutches of the date-rapist.

It seems like the important thing here is to differentiate the characters by personality, and only minimally by their skill sets.

I voted against fantasy, but just because "grafts" sound a wee bit ridiculous for a hard-boiled game. I would give you my left kidney for a Dirk Gently game, though. And maybe a slice of my liver for a game based on Glen Cook's Garrett....

Authoritarian propaganda???

WTF??

 Its a TV show version of the classic mystery novel form known as the Police Procedural.

 Not everything is some kind of "politics". They are just folks going to their jobs who became teammates and friends.


- Ed C.

Koltar> You've got to ignore or misunderstand a lot of the CSI franchise to say that it's not political. I'm sure you're up to that task though.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineKoltar> You've got to ignore or misunderstand a lot of the CSI franchise to say that it's not political. I'm sure you're up to that task though.

 NO...


 you're just being insulting.

Its a cop show and sometimes a mystery show.

 I bet you see political acts in your house pets when they just want their food changed too....

Quote from: Kyle AaronIn Harm's Way: A Dame and a Dick? :p

Close enough for bocci. :D

-clash

Quote from: KoltarNO...


 you're just being insulting.

Its a cop show and sometimes a mystery show.

 I bet you see political acts in your house pets when they just want their food changed too....

Of course I'm being insulting. You pull this know-nothing routine every chance you get. You're anti-intellectual scum, and I've got no patience for it. Go post pictures of cats on the internet and leave the discussion to the big kids already.

Well, that was an efficient threadcrap. :mad:

I contributed substantively. Now that the wanker is gone, hopefully, let me repeat it.

CSI is a useful model for police procedurals involving groups. The characters are distinguished by minor personality quirks and the responsibility they take on within each case rather than by drastic skill differences. The assignment of responsibility is therefore done with an eye to interesting character conflict rather than having "a tech guy" and "a face" and so on.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineI contributed substantively. Now that the wanker is gone, hopefully, let me repeat it.

CSI is a useful model for police procedurals involving groups. The characters are distinguished by minor personality quirks and the responsibility they take on within each case rather than by drastic skill differences. The assignment of responsibility is therefore done with an eye to interesting character conflict rather than having "a tech guy" and "a face" and so on.

Yeah, thanks for that. Already in my thoughts! If we can keep politics out of it though, it would be cool.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineI contributed substantively. Now that the wanker is gone, hopefully, let me repeat it.

CSI is a useful model for police procedurals involving groups. The characters are distinguished by minor personality quirks and the responsibility they take on within each case rather than by drastic skill differences. The assignment of responsibility is therefore done with an eye to interesting character conflict rather than having "a tech guy" and "a face" and so on.

 No the so-called wanker just had to get a normal amount of sleep....

 All of what you just said about character conflict works fine in RPG campaigns as well....

...and has nothing to do with politics.

Quote from: One Horse TownYeah, thanks for that. Already in my thoughts! If we can keep politics out of it though, it would be cool.

Politics is key to the police procedural though. Law & Order, CSI, and so on all have distinct viewpoints on how the legal system and justice interact with one another in the practice they depict. Deciding what kind of political attitude you want your depiction of the police to have is an important choice.

The CSI franchise, for example, considers the law and justice to be identical, and so the agents enforce justice and are therefore good people who are justified in what they do.

There are other police procedurals where these assumptions are not in place, but other assumptions are. The Wire, Law & Order, Da Vinci's Inquest and CSI all have different relationships to the law, and these give the shows different feels, allows them to tell different kinds of stories in different kinds of ways.

The decision to sideline the politics of the police and the legal system as a whole in a police procedural is not an automatically sensible decision, but actually runs counter to the genre as a whole. The politics of policing and man's relationship to the law are recurring subjects throughout it.

I think therefore, that you should reconsider your decision to sidestep the politics.

We're talking RPGs here - NOT a thesis or seminar in college.

 My mother has a crush on Grissom and likes watching the show...especially whenever Lady Heather shows up.  I doubt very much the average viewer notices or even worries about implied politics.

Lady Heather = interesting NPC that would rattle a player character in a possible "good way". Unless, TWO of the player characters have started a relationship since Lady Heather first made an appearance.


 Next you'll be telling us that the dramatic way that David Caruso puts on or takes off his sunglasses is a statement on capitalism vs. socialism dynamics....when it just might be that his eyebrows itch or that the sun is really bright that day.

Quote from: KoltarWe're talking RPGs here - NOT a thesis or seminar in college.

 My mother has a crush on Grissom and likes watching the show...especially whenever Lady Heather shows up.  I doubt very much the average viewer notices or even worries about implied politics.

Lady Heather = interesting NPC that would rattle a player character in a possible "good way". Unless, TWO of the player characters have started a relationship since Lady Heather first made an appearance.


 Next you'll be telling us that the dramatic way that David Caruso puts on or takes off his sunglasses is a statement on capitalism vs. socialism dynamics....when it just might be that his eyebrows itch or that the sun is really bright that day.

:rolleyes:

Anyhow, One Horse Town, pace Koltar, people do pay attention to the politics of the police procedural, even if they don't explicitly talk about them in a rigorous, theoretical way.

For example Law & Order, the longest running of the police procedural shows in North America, has tons of debates about the morality of the law, how it should be enforced in practice, and whether particular judgements were just or unjust. It manages to do this in a dramatic and interesting way, every week for over a decade now. Episodes of Law & Order do kick off water cooler discussions about politics, not in the least because the cases in L&O are "ripped from the headlines" as often as not, meaning that the particular interpretation of the case in the show colours real opinion about real cases.

NO ...YOU are paying attention to the politics of it all . The rest of us might just be watching a show with characters we like to re-visit

...OR playing a roleplaying game where our Private detective character is trying to solve a mystery and stay alive in a 1980s setting....and it doesn't matter if the character voted Democrat or Republican or has even heard of Karl Marx. What matters is that the character is backed up by the other player characters and that all the players are having fun.


- Ed C.







 (oh if you don't see a reply for awhile - its because I went to my job and maybe grabbed something close to normal sleep afterwards. )

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine:rolleyes:

Anyhow, One Horse Town, pace Koltar, people do pay attention to the politics of the police procedural, even if they don't explicitly talk about them in a rigorous, theoretical way.

For example Law & Order, the longest running of the police procedural shows in North America, has tons of debates about the morality of the law, how it should be enforced in practice, and whether particular judgements were just or unjust. It manages to do this in a dramatic and interesting way, every week for over a decade now. Episodes of Law & Order do kick off water cooler discussions about politics, not in the least because the cases in L&O are "ripped from the headlines" as often as not, meaning that the particular interpretation of the case in the show colours real opinion about real cases.

Sam Waterston's liberal speechifying is so notorious that it's often been parodied.  

Most of the original Law and Order shows are all about politics, and many of the stories are ripped straight from real trials, with commentary added by everyone's favorite liberal spokesperson.  

Honestly, it's one of the things I like about the show.  And probably the only thing now that Jerry Orbach has passed on.

Fuck me. Yes, of course police procedurals are concerned with the law and to a certain degree, politics. I don't give a flying fuck what political message a couple of t.v shows are touting though.

This is not about politics. That's a side show, tucked at the back behind the flea-bitten old sofa someone just dumped. This is meant to be fun, not a fucking debate on the politics of t.v shows. This is Jim Rockford getting beaten up in his old mobile home as a helpless Rocky looks on. This is about Columbo looking like a piece of garbage in the rich man's manshion, flicking cigar ash all over the furniture and muttering "oh, one more thing!" This is about Sherlock Holmes is disguise, scoping out the baddies den. Fuck, it's even about Bruce Willis and Cybil Shepherd struggling to pay the rent while on crackpot cases. It certainly ain't meant to be about the politics. YMMV, but if it does, start another fucking thread and arse fuck each other there.

(out of character rant now over. normal service resumed)

One Horse Town,

 I LIKE the idea of Columbo, Rockford and the MOONLIGHTING agency characters  teaming up on a case together.


 Maybe they stumble across twisted plans of the Illuminati and have to save the state of California as we know it ?? (And the U.S. gets saved as well as a side benefit....now about those pesky aliens....)


 OR just a major crimes ring thats gone interstate.


- Ed C.

Quote from: One Horse TownFuck me. Yes, of course police procedurals are concerned with the law and to a certain degree, politics. I don't give a flying fuck what political message a couple of t.v shows are touting though.

This is not about politics. That's a side show, tucked at the back behind the flea-bitten old sofa someone just dumped. This is meant to be fun, not a fucking debate on the politics of t.v shows. This is Jim Rockford getting beaten up in his old mobile home as a helpless Rocky looks on. This is about Columbo looking like a piece of garbage in the rich man's manshion, flicking cigar ash all over the furniture and muttering "oh, one more thing!" This is about Sherlock Holmes is disguise, scoping out the baddies den. Fuck, it's even about Bruce Willis and Cybil Shepherd struggling to pay the rent while on crackpot cases. It certainly ain't meant to be about the politics. YMMV, but if it does, start another fucking thread and arse fuck each other there.

(out of character rant now over. normal service resumed)

What you want is a detective game, not a police procedural then. There are already plenty of detective games on the market. You are welcome to put another drop in the bucket, but it's nothing new.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineWhat you want is a detective game, not a police procedural then. There are already plenty of detective games on the market. You are welcome to put another drop in the bucket, but it's nothing new.

Mate, did you even look at the poll? PI game. Detective agencies and all that.

As to originality, it's over rated anyhow! ;)

It's possible to have a police procedural that features a detective. It's also possible to have a detective story that stars the police. You need to be more clear about these things.

Course i do.

Anyhow, now that the fucker has fucked up yet another fucking thread, i'm making like the Skarka. *vanishes* :blahblah:

Fly from Evil is being developed by Cumberland Games, S John Ross in other words.

It's probably still at least a year away, but it's S John Ross, I expect it to be the definitive word on hardboiled detective gaming.  Incidentally, although I agreed with most of Pseudo's comments I don't think detective gaming is well served at all in rpgs, there are hardly any.

Police procedurals, which are a separate genre but which to be fair weren't the subject of the thread, I'd also love to see.  87th Precinct would make a kickass rpg.

Lastly, although Pseudo is right that CSI is inherently political, I still love it and I can't say it bothers me when I watch it.  Sometimes a badly decomposing body found tucked inside a grandfather clock by kids playing in an old abandoned house is just that...

Maybe we should add Criminal Minds to the mix.

Edit: From what I have seen the specialized characters interact with society on a more "grassroots" level.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: BalbinusFly from Evil is being developed by Cumberland Games, S John Ross in other words.

It's probably still at least a year away, but it's S John Ross, I expect it to be the definitive word on hardboiled detective gaming.  Incidentally, although I agreed with most of Pseudo's comments I don't think detective gaming is well served at all in rpgs, there are hardly any.

Police procedurals, which are a separate genre but which to be fair weren't the subject of the thread, I'd also love to see.  87th Precinct would make a kickass rpg.

Lastly, although Pseudo is right that CSI is inherently political, I still love it and I can't say it bothers me when I watch it.  Sometimes a badly decomposing body found tucked inside a grandfather clock by kids playing in an old abandoned house is just that...

I think our disconnect on the commonality of "detective" games might come because I count all that "occult investigator" stuff as detective games. There is, to me at least, a great deal of difference between a detective game and a detective story and a police procedural, even if the former stars the cops and the latter has a detective as the hero.

Detective games to me are the sort that tend to focus on "solving mysteries", by getting lots of "clues" and then weaving a plausible story out of them. Police procedurals are all about building cases by accumulating evidence. The two activities are not identical. I think the former is done often enough in RPGs that it's old hat. I may have missed counter-examples, but I'm not aware of any RPG out there that makes PCs build cases.

BTW, this thread is pretty useful in that I'm starting to get an idea for how to design a really neat police procedural RPG. More on that some other time.

*ahem* I'm all better after my hissy fit now.

I think there's room in either genre for both gathering clues and building a case. The difference being that generally in a detective type game, you're not likely to be involved in the prosecution of the case, bar being a witness or somut.

Yes, but that's a key difference. It shapes the whole story. For example, Philip Marlowe never needed to worry about the "fruit of the poisoned tree" doctrine, but it's a key plot point in the movie Seven. Auguste Dupin just has to eliminate the impossible until only the improbable remains - an orangutan was responsible. The DAs in Law & Order could never get away with doing that.

Yep, sure.

I think that one of the main stumbling blocks to a strict police procedural game is the constraints on what the characters would be able to do. You have to abide by the law and play it by the book to gain a clean conviction. That's alignment constraints turned up to 11. In PI games, you can at least choose whether to play it by the book or bend the rules a bit.

Also, i suspect that few game writers have the legal chops to do justice to a strict police procedural, thus the focus on PI/detective games.

I'm going for as little structure as possible, as far as constraints go, and i've come up with a 'mini-game' for interrogations. I suspect that to do things justice in a pure procedural game, you'd have to have a gazillion 'mini-games' to get through the process of crime>motive>evidence>trial>conviction. Just like the real deal! Takes years from the crime to conviction in many cases.

You could probably simplify it like they do on TV. I think you're right that few game designers do have the legal knowledge for it though.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineI think our disconnect on the commonality of "detective" games might come because I count all that "occult investigator" stuff as detective games. There is, to me at least, a great deal of difference between a detective game and a detective story and a police procedural, even if the former stars the cops and the latter has a detective as the hero.

Detective games to me are the sort that tend to focus on "solving mysteries", by getting lots of "clues" and then weaving a plausible story out of them. Police procedurals are all about building cases by accumulating evidence. The two activities are not identical. I think the former is done often enough in RPGs that it's old hat. I may have missed counter-examples, but I'm not aware of any RPG out there that makes PCs build cases.

BTW, this thread is pretty useful in that I'm starting to get an idea for how to design a really neat police procedural RPG. More on that some other time.

That makes sense, in my personal parlance I would call the occult games investigative games, for me detective games would involve people who were formally detectives.  Using your equally valid parlance though I agree that there is plainly a difference between detective games and police procedurals.

Police procedurals generally don't follow through to trial, Law and Order is kind of unique in that.

Fruit of the poisoned tree and so on matters, because it has consequences, but those consequences tend to be off screen until the bad guy recurs in the plot having been released due to those errors.

87th Precinct people, check it out, damn near created the police procedural genre.

There is an investigative game called Esoterrorists that I recall a lot of people saying it had innovative rules for investigation.  Has anyone here read it?

Pete