I'm doing some advance prep for my Rifts game, and I've set myself the task of genre-hopping as much as possible, just to amp up the gonzo/kitchen sink aspects of the setting for my young group of players who had never heard of it before this year. I've already done some magic, some horror, and plenty of sci-fi. I have a supervillain prepped and have a fish-out-of-water encounter planned for him. I have a Mission Impossible-inspired heist rolling around in my brain as well.
Today I turned towards dungeon crawling and busted out my Half Price Books-bought copy of 'Base Raiders - Superpowered Dungeon Crawling.' It's about cracking open supervillain bases and looting them. Seems like a great thematic fit for Rifts.
I flip to the section under Running the Game called Base Building Rules, page 187. It starts off by determining what the players know about the base. It expands on this and describes how to determine the result of the players researching the base. Then it says, "The GM can build it now using this information," and I'm just shocked. Let me quote it first:
"Once this process is complete, the base will have 7 aspects to describe it, one for each of the 7 major elements of the base. The gamemaster has to create an adventure based on this information, but now the players have an idea of what to expect - of course they won't know how much of their information is accurate, slightly incorrect, or outright wrong."
What's missing from that? Oh, I don't know, what about a map, encounters, specific obstacles with game stats/rules, or even loot? You know, the stuff a dungeon crawler does well?
Yes, it provides a good deal of thematic information described in single sentences that could serve as idea fodder. But am I alone in thinking this falls far, far short of 'Base Building'?
Seems like the whole idea of a Gamemaster doing a truckload of work around what the players dreamed up is just tossed in here as an afterthought.
Never played Rifts but this sounds more like a guidebook to me. What you are describing for what should be in a dungeon crawl sounds more like the contents of an adventure module than a 'How to' type of general guide. Was this book marketed as a ready to play adventure?
Quote from: Exploderwizard on February 13, 2024, 11:44:26 AM
Never played Rifts but this sounds more like a guidebook to me. What you are describing for what should be in a dungeon crawl sounds more like the contents of an adventure module than a 'How to' type of general guide. Was this book marketed as a ready to play adventure?
I should have been more clear, sorry. It's not a Rifts book. The back of the book bills 'Base Raiders - Superpowered Dungeon Crawling' as 'a complete role playing game'. I flipped it open for guidance and inspiration on building a technology-driven dungeon for my players to crawl.
Quote from: mcbobbo on February 13, 2024, 11:57:00 AM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on February 13, 2024, 11:44:26 AM
Never played Rifts but this sounds more like a guidebook to me. What you are describing for what should be in a dungeon crawl sounds more like the contents of an adventure module than a 'How to' type of general guide. Was this book marketed as a ready to play adventure?
I should have been more clear, sorry. It's not a Rifts book. The back of the book bills 'Base Raiders - Superpowered Dungeon Crawling' as 'a complete role playing game'. I flipped it open for guidance and inspiration on building a technology-driven dungeon for my players to crawl.
Oh ok, but a complete rpg might be just that, unless it advertises ready to play adventures are included.
I just feel like a 'complete base building system' should generate a base.
Quote from: mcbobbo on February 13, 2024, 12:10:31 PM
I just feel like a 'complete base building system' should generate a base.
OK ,so what you are looking for is a collection of tables that could be used to create an actual adventure location with contents. That is a more reasonable expectation for such a book.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on February 13, 2024, 12:24:01 PM
Quote from: mcbobbo on February 13, 2024, 12:10:31 PM
I just feel like a 'complete base building system' should generate a base.
OK ,so what you are looking for is a collection of tables that could be used to create an actual adventure location with contents. That is a more reasonable expectation for such a book.
Yes, that would be something for a Gamemaster to use, and warranted, I'd think.
What they have now is more a conversation starter. A seed generator, or similar.
Base Raiders is a hippie-game by Ross Payton from Roleplaying Public Radio (one of the older ttrpg podcasts). Their recorded APs are hilarious but yeah they're drippin' wet woke SJWs. So naturally his game is trash.
Quote from: mcbobbo on February 13, 2024, 12:10:31 PM
I just feel like a 'complete base building system' should generate a base.
Yeah, for sure. Sounds like this book is hot garbage.
Quote from: Theory of Games on February 13, 2024, 12:40:00 PM
Base Raiders is a hippie-game by Ross Payton from Roleplaying Public Radio (one of the older ttrpg podcasts). Their recorded APs are hilarious but yeah they're drippin' wet woke SJWs. So naturally his game is trash.
Well that says it all. SJW's avoid good gameable content like vampires avoid garlic.
Quote from: mcbobbo on February 13, 2024, 10:44:21 AM
"Once this process is complete, the base will have 7 aspects to describe it, one for each of the 7 major elements of the base. The gamemaster has to create an adventure based on this information, but now the players have an idea of what to expect - of course they won't know how much of their information is accurate, slightly incorrect, or outright wrong."
Seems like the whole idea of a Gamemaster doing a truckload of work around what the players dreamed up is just tossed in here as an afterthought.
Players: Hey wait a minute, this isn't what we came up with. You're supposed to run a base using the ideas we gave you.
GM: What are you talking about? That's exactly what I'm doing! Unfortunately (and as the book clearly states) you were given bad intel. So everything you think you know is wrong.
Lazily written material that negates itself shouldn't exist. There are better ways to prompt players to help the GM create scenarios they'd like to play than fostering self-entitled expectations.
Quote from: mcbobbo on February 13, 2024, 12:10:31 PM
I just feel like a 'complete base building system' should generate a base.
Except from your description it sounds kinda storygame-esque? The "build a base with 7 aspects" sounds right out of FATE.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 13, 2024, 02:17:22 PM
Quote from: mcbobbo on February 13, 2024, 12:10:31 PM
I just feel like a 'complete base building system' should generate a base.
Except from your description it sounds kinda storygame-esque? The "build a base with 7 aspects" sounds right out of FATE.
It does. It says it used the FATE system on the back cover. I'm unfamiliar with FATE outside of its wonky dice. Is that why it needs no structure?
Quote from: mcbobbo on February 13, 2024, 02:18:46 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 13, 2024, 02:17:22 PM
Quote from: mcbobbo on February 13, 2024, 12:10:31 PM
I just feel like a 'complete base building system' should generate a base.
Except from your description it sounds kinda storygame-esque? The "build a base with 7 aspects" sounds right out of FATE.
It does. It says it used the FATE system on the back cover. I'm unfamiliar with FATE outside of its wonky dice. Is that why it needs no structure?
Wrestling rules out of FATE is like trying to grab smoke. It's all about creating Aspects from scratch, interpreting what those aspects are and how you think they should work, etc. There are mechanics, but a lot of it is hazy and open to interpretation. I have Spirit Of The Century which uses FATE, and the book has 'stats' for like 4 major villains, and that's it. You're expected to make your own.
I also has the Dresden Files rpg that uses FATE, and at the beginning the whole group are supposed to come together and create the city the players will be based in as a cooperative effort using Aspects.
Those versions of FATE are badly out of date, and are clunky as hell. The current version is much, much more streamlined and easier to both understand and apply.
mcbobbo, Base Raiders is not going to help you much, I'm afraid. It sounds like you're looking for something more OSR-like that generates a base for you and Base Raiders is Not That.
Quote from: daniel_ream on February 13, 2024, 10:59:53 PM
Those versions of FATE are badly out of date, and are clunky as hell. The current version is much, much more streamlined and easier to both understand and apply.
mcbobbo, Base Raiders is not going to help you much, I'm afraid. It sounds like you're looking for something more OSR-like that generates a base for you and Base Raiders is Not That.
Base Raiders had their Kickstarter 4 years after The Dresden Files main book dropped, so it's the 'out of date and clunky' FATE.
Quote from: mcbobbo on February 13, 2024, 12:10:31 PM
I just feel like a 'complete base building system' should generate a base.
I have or had Base Raiders and my impression was much the same.
Found it.
Ok. It is not till page 90 that you get to actual rules and find out this game uses the FATE system and Fudge Dice. Seems to be a DIY sort of system similar to BESM.
Not till another 90 pages before get to Base Building. And its mostly a storytelling collaboration system. "Make stuff up as we go!" It feels almost like a DM emulator that requires a DM. And makes it about useless for anything else.
I know little of the FATE system but this feels very storygamy rather than an RPG.
When it comes to player base building, it kind of depends on what the game is but there's a couple of easy solutions.
1. If it's just a place for the party to live between adventures, then I just have them buy a house. I actually use local real estate listings as a starting place, adjust the cost according the in game economy, and tweak things as necessary. I determine an annual cost of maintenance and property tax and charge the players for that accordingly.
2. if the base is going to have more in game mechanical function, I use the ship building rules from Traveller. I just drop the propulsion from the cost and they can add armor, labs, etc. with some form of structure to it all and an associated cost. It's not a perfect solution at all but it works well enough.
Quote from: BadApple on February 14, 2024, 10:15:33 AM
When it comes to player base building, it kind of depends on what the game is but there's a couple of easy solutions.
Not player strongholds, technologically themed dungeons with modern obstacles.
Quote from: Omega on February 14, 2024, 01:41:42 AM
I know little of the FATE system but this feels very storygamy rather than an RPG.
Yeah, I should have looked closer at the book. It wasn't a waste of the $5 or whatever I gave, but it boggles my mind that you'd do something so tactical as dungeon crawling with a storygame. Never would have guessed.
Quote from: mcbobbo on February 14, 2024, 10:18:01 AM
Quote from: BadApple on February 14, 2024, 10:15:33 AM
When it comes to player base building, it kind of depends on what the game is but there's a couple of easy solutions.
Not player strongholds, technologically themed dungeons with modern obstacles.
Oh, ok. Here's a few ideas then.
First, there's a manga called Rebuild World that's one part cyberpunk and one part post apocalyptic fiction. It might serve as some inspiration. The main character is a relic hunter that basically goes out and tries to find pre-war tech and sells them. Literally dungeon crawling things like shopping malls and military bases.
Second, see about getting as much information about RL high tech facilities. An example might be the Boeing Field facility on the south side of Seattle. Use the whole facility as the dungeon and add maintenance and access tunnels under it as well. Then just have some of the buildings be collapsed and add your favorite scifi automated security.
Things like NY subway and sewer tunnels maps are available. So are maps for the Seattle underground and the Las Vegas storm drain system. Google images is great from building dungeons based on real places. I do it all the time. I have an entire collection of floor plans for castles and ancient fortifications that I use for fantasy games dungeon crawling. I frequently use house plans websites' floor plans for modern games.
Quote from: mcbobbo on February 14, 2024, 10:19:16 AM
Yeah, I should have looked closer at the book. It wasn't a waste of the $5 or whatever I gave, but it boggles my mind that you'd do something so tactical as dungeon crawling with a storygame. Never would have guessed.
There's s metric fuck-ton of that in the storygaming space, actually.