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A lot of debate has taken place recently about what is an appropriate age for player characters to be, some suggesting that PC's should be of age, a few others suggesting that there is no limit except your imagination. (I apologize if this seems like I'm loading the terms here-I am not trying to pass judgment on either side, obviously we all do what is fun for our own game, and group right?) So where do you fall on the scale? Have you ever played under aged PC's? What thematic issues did they face? Why? Was it fun? Is there an age group you find to be off limits? Why?


I grew up on movies like the Black Cauldron, and Escape from Witch Mountain, and comic books of all sorts. So for me I'm pretty hip to the idea of the under age PC. The child who grows into adulthood being a common theme in our games.

In an a recent D&D game the player characters were all survivors of a village massacred (Apparently) by the previous group of player characters. In Shadowrun we've run several games in which the PC's were under aged members of gangs, struggling to survive against the odds, and even a few random under aged PC's.  (Tombstone who was a free spirit who was disguised in the physical plane as a eight year old boy, the Four Elemental Fists of Fury-who each had elemental magic powers they used on Indiana Jones style missions.)

What about you? What is your experiences? Notably good or bad? Why?

Quote from: Serious Paul;256869A lot of debate has taken place recently about what is an appropriate age for player characters to be, some suggesting that PC's should be of age, a few others suggesting that there is no limit except your imagination. (I apologize if this seems like I'm loading the terms here-I am not trying to pass judgment on either side, obviously we all do what is fun for our own game, and group right?) So where do you fall on the scale? Have you ever played under aged PC's? What thematic issues did they face? Why? Was it fun? Is there an age group you find to be off limits? Why?


I grew up on movies like the Black Cauldron, and Escape from Witch Mountain, and comic books of all sorts. So for me I'm pretty hip to the idea of the under age PC. The child who grows into adulthood being a common theme in our games.

In an a recent D&D game the player characters were all survivors of a village massacred (Apparently) by the previous group of player characters. In Shadowrun we've run several games in which the PC's were under aged members of gangs, struggling to survive against the odds, and even a few random under aged PC's.  (Tombstone who was a free spirit who was disguised in the physical plane as a eight year old boy, the Four Elemental Fists of Fury-who each had elemental magic powers they used on Indiana Jones style missions.)

What about you? What is your experiences? Notably good or bad? Why?

The Lifepath Chargen in my games begins at age 10 for a reason. You can play younger than that by lessening the four skills you get at that age - want to play a 7 year old? Choose 3 skills. A 5 year old? Choose 2.

-clash

-clash

I don't have any restrictions on age, either in games that I play or run, beyond the general genre or campaign restrictions as set out by the group ahead of time.  Personally speaking, I'm not all that interested in playing young characters.  I did play little kids in a con game of Little Fears that was really a lot of fun, but there was already way too much baby talk that freaked me out so I wouldn't want to do it for any extended period.

QuoteA lot of debate has taken place recently about what is an appropriate age for player characters to be, some suggesting that PC's should be of age, a few others suggesting that there is no limit except your imagination.

I'd suggest that the issue is not the age of the PC but what one wants to do with the PC that determines the "appropriate age".

Quote from: CavScout;256912I'd suggest that the issue is not the age of the PC but what one wants to do with the PC that determines the "appropriate age".

Agreed.

-clash

I've played a 12-year-old mass murderer (http://bulldrek.freespeech-alpha.com/viewtopic.php?t=6142) and a poison dusk child who was a pretty bad guy. Needless to say, I'm not really concerned about it.

QuoteI'd suggest that the issue is not the age of the PC but what one wants to do with the PC that determines the "appropriate age".

This.

I have never played a character under the age of 20, and never found the need to.  I have been in games where the DM has NPC's as young characters that hinder or help the party, but nothing more then a tool for the game.  

I am currently trying to put a game together of D&D with my 10 and 12 year old. I will be monitoring the development so that they experience the fun of the game, whether they choose young or old characters is up to them, but I will make sure every aspect is age appropriate.

Quote from: CavScout;256912I'd suggest that the issue is not the age of the PC but what one wants to do with the PC that determines the "appropriate age".

That's the only reasonable response.

Quote from: Venosha;256969This.

I have never played a character under the age of 20, and never found the need to.  I have been in games where the DM has NPC's as young characters that hinder or help the party, but nothing more then a tool for the game.  

I am currently trying to put a game together of D&D with my 10 and 12 year old. I will be monitoring the development so that they experience the fun of the game, whether they choose young or old characters is up to them, but I will make sure every aspect is age appropriate.

In both my In Harm's Way: A Napoleonic Naval RPG and my forthcoming In Harm's Way: Dragons! one option is to play 12-18 year old officers in training - Midshipmen and Wingmen respectively - which is true to the times. These children were put on the firing line and in charge of grown men, which was typical of the era. They confronted disease, death, and maiming in their work, and were expected to deal with it. The coddling of children is a much newer phenomenon.

-clash

QuoteThe coddling of children is a much newer phenomenon.

I agree that coddling of children is a much newer phenomenon.  I just prefer to monitor the way the story develops and where their characters go, in case questions come up about certain events.  Never would I not answer question pertaining to certain situation, but there are some elements that I am sure my 10 year old is not ready to face vs. my 12 year old.  

I have looked into your games, and find them quite interesting (especially In Harms Way-Dragons ) Although I have not purchased them as of yet, if you have characters that are between 12-18 fighting side by side with older characters, great!  I just don't prefer to play younger characters, and I just mentioned what I had experienced in previous games.  I am all for younger characters, but I need to monitor what I feel is appropriate for my children.

I have no problem with people playing child characters, again as long as the context is appropriate.  In my historical games, its pretty clear that cultural mores are different, and I don't hide that from my players. I don't revel in it either, and its never presented in light of encouragement or endorsement.

RPGPundit

Personally I prefer to play age 16+, ie at least young adults.

Quote from: Venosha;256987I agree that coddling of children is a much newer phenomenon.  I just prefer to monitor the way the story develops and where their characters go, in case questions come up about certain events.  Never would I not answer question pertaining to certain situation, but there are some elements that I am sure my 10 year old is not ready to face vs. my 12 year old.

I agree entirely. That is your parental right and duty. I certainly was careful with my boy when he was that age!

QuoteI have looked into your games, and find them quite interesting (especially In Harms Way-Dragons ) Although I have not purchased them as of yet, if you have characters that are between 12-18 fighting side by side with older characters, great!

Thank you! The younger characters are indeed fighting side-by-side with the older characters in these games. Playing younger characters is an option in the games, not a necessary thing.

QuoteI just don't prefer to play younger characters, and I just mentioned what I had experienced in previous games.  I am all for younger characters, but I need to monitor what I feel is appropriate for my children.

Younger players is an entirely different question than younger characters. I feel there should be room in games for playing younger characters, but younger players is something for the group and parents to determine and deal with on whatever level they feel comfortable with.

-clash

Quote from: Venosha;256987I am all for younger characters, but I need to monitor what I feel is appropriate for my children.

And I don't think anyone with any common sense would try to tell you differently

Quote from: flyingmice;256977In both my In Harm's Way: A Napoleonic Naval RPG and my forthcoming In Harm's Way: Dragons! one option is to play 12-18 year old officers in training - Midshipmen and Wingmen respectively - which is true to the times. These children were put on the firing line and in charge of grown men, which was typical of the era. They confronted disease, death, and maiming in their work, and were expected to deal with it. The coddling of children is a much newer phenomenon.

I should have mentioned the age factor whenever I talked about my IHW games. There were two characters one 14 the other 15 in my Our Cruel Sea campaign. About the only problems we encountered, was exactly how well the kids were able to articulate ideas and stand up to authority (important themes in the campaign). But after a while we just said screw it and assumed they were "wise beyond their years"....not very convincing, but it worked....

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;257036I should have mentioned the age factor whenever I talked about my IHW games. There were two characters one 14 the other 15 in my Our Cruel Sea campaign. About the only problems we encountered, was exactly how well the kids were able to articulate ideas and stand up to authority (important themes in the campaign). But after a while we just said screw it and assumed they were "wise beyond their years"....not very convincing, but it worked....

Regards,
David R

All of my guys - New England talk for people, not men - played middies in one of my IHW games. The best was the 12 year old brother of one of my guys, who plays occasionally, playing a 12 year old middie. A conversation in character:

Captain: "I'm afraid this latest infraction can't be ignored, Midshipman Brown. You're going to have to 'kiss the Gunner's daughter.'"

Brown: "I've got to kiss a girl???"

Captain: "Noooo, not quite..."

Brown: "I've got to kiss a BOY????!!!!"

At that point the table just cracked up.

-clash

In dnd, I often made characters just above starting age.  I do remember sometimes people who played humans would start at the lowest starting age possible (I think 15) because we've had problems with ghosts aging people by 40 years.

There are only 2 cases of really young characters though.  One, I believe, was in a battletech campaign.  I think it was more acceptable because the kid was a pilot and most people just saw the mech.  The other time someone had made a young character as a backup character, but never brought it in play.  I do believe that it would have been accepted.

Personally, I don't care if someone wants to play a kid, but I wouldn't want to see it done often.  The kinds of situations it creates (either with the character concept or just the general reaction/run-of-events in the game) would become annoying eventually.  The genre might make it more or less appropriate.  I could easily see a superhero youngster being part of a great game, but a normal modern or fantasy game might strain the game.

Quote from: CavScout;256912I'd suggest that the issue is not the age of the PC but what one wants to do with the PC that determines the "appropriate age".

I agree with CavScout.   ::shudder::

Many moons ago I played a character named Too Slick in a Fantasy Hero game.  He was based on the character Short Round from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.  No, wait.  He was Short Round.  I'm pretty sure I called one of the other players "Doctor Jones" more than a few times.

That character was an absolute blast to play.  He was played primarily as comic relief, but since he was built on the same points as everyone else, he was pretty badass, and saved the whole party's bacon more than a few times.

I have no problem with kid characters like that, specifically the "The Kid" archetype.  I also don't have a problem with The Kid being a girl.

But any guy my age who wants to play a little girl raises an alarm.  And I can see that going to a really creepy place really fast.

I also don't have any issue with any starting D&D character around 16-18.  That's what the dice generate, and teenagers are stupid and reckless so they already have most of the prerequisites for adventuring down pat.

Quote from: flyingmice;257059At that point the table just cracked up.

You know me clash, my historical games don't have much of the funneh in them. We did make up rules for loading a pistol with one arm in a sling, though :D (I think I mentioned this before , the incident about the most vicious knife fight in the history of my gaming) , which got the now famous, "If the boy can do it, why not me..."

Regards,
David R

No, seriously, I played a 12-year-old boy who killed people. Murdered them. Slaughtered them, with glee and an axe. Shouldn't I be shunned or ridiculed or something? Or is it only sex-and-children that's deserving of reprehension, not ultraviolence-and-children?

Quote from: Engine;257158No, seriously, I played a 12-year-old boy who killed people. Murdered them. Slaughtered them, with glee and an axe. Shouldn't I be shunned or ridiculed or something? Or is it only sex-and-children that's deserving of reprehension, not ultraviolence-and-children?

I'd kick you out of a group for making a character like that.  Stupid pointless edgy crap that serves no purpose at all.  I mean seriously, where the development in a character like that?  There isn't any.  It's just stupid "look at me! look at me!  I'm being EDGY!" garbage.

But you probably played that character once, if you aren't just making shit up.

And we don't need to shun and ridicule you, you're not actually part of the gaming hobby.  You're just Serious Paul's boyfriend who he games with a few times a year.  You've done us all the favor of removing yourself from the community in general already.

Quote from: Engine;257158No, seriously, I played a 12-year-old boy who killed people. Murdered them. Slaughtered them, with glee and an axe. Shouldn't I be shunned or ridiculed or something? Or is it only sex-and-children that's deserving of reprehension, not ultraviolence-and-children?

It all depends on context and level of detail, that argument is too vague for this discussion.  A child rapist villain for the party to catch/kill is one thing.  A child rapist character in the party is going too far.

Now if you're talking about consenting sex between kids, that depends on the context.  In historic games this might make sense.  Although in my book that kind of thing is best left behind the scenes and doesn't really enhance the story to describe in any amount of detail.

Quote from: Jackalope;257339I'd kick you out of a group for making a character like that.  Stupid pointless edgy crap that serves no purpose at all.  I mean seriously, where the development in a character like that?  There isn't any.  It's just stupid "look at me! look at me!  I'm being EDGY!" garbage.

Yeah because you know the complete context of his character in their game.  Don't be rediculous.  Halloween featured such a character and it worked for that story.  If the name of the game was to play psychopaths, then who are you to kick anyone out?

Quote from: Engine;257158No, seriously, I played a 12-year-old boy who killed people. Murdered them. Slaughtered them, with glee and an axe. Shouldn't I be shunned or ridiculed or something? Or is it only sex-and-children that's deserving of reprehension, not ultraviolence-and-children?

This is a thread of it's own, Engine.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Jackalope;257339You're just Serious Paul's boyfriend who he games with a few times a year.

Wow!  Does serious Paul know that?

Quote from: Engine;257158No, seriously, I played a 12-year-old boy who killed people. Murdered them. Slaughtered them, with glee and an axe. Shouldn't I be shunned or ridiculed or something? Or is it only sex-and-children that's deserving of reprehension, not ultraviolence-and-children?

Who am I to tell you what your group should do? That's up to you. If your group has no problem, you're the only one who can judge that.

-clash

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;257369Wow!  Does serious Paul know that?

If he does, he's a no good cheating SOB....

Regards,
David R

Trollop that's me. How I find the time....:D

Quote from: Serious Paul;257380Trollop that's me. How I find the time....:D

I find that video games keep me faithful, but then she gets mad that I'm spending too much time playing them.  Doesn't she realize how hard it is for me not to sleep around!?

Quote from: Engine;257158Or is it only sex-and-children that's deserving of reprehension, not ultraviolence-and-children?

Man, this site tarred and feathered a bloke and rode him out on a rail, because he'd done some speculative thinking about child sexuality in a fictional world.

Quote from: droog;257415Man, this site tarred and feathered a bloke and rode him out on a rail, because he'd done some speculative thinking about child sexuality in a fictional world.

Actually, because he couldn't stop talking about it, pretty well everywhere.  All in all, we're pretty lax around here. Many would accuse me of being far too tolerant of the Lawncrappers here.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Jackalope;257339I'd kick you out of a group for making a character like that.  Stupid pointless edgy crap that serves no purpose at all.  I mean seriously, where the development in a character like that?  There isn't any.  It's just stupid "look at me! look at me!  I'm being EDGY!" garbage.

It serves essentially the same purpose as playing a 12-year-old deckhand in a historical naval game, only in this case, it's history forward, not history backward, if that makes any sense. It's about the essential animalism of humanity, and is a reflection in fiction of the real 12-year-old murderers who grow up in abhorrent circumstances, in this case, wrecked inner cities. Such people don't question the basic morality that drives people in more civilized times, because they cannot rise high enough on Maslow's hierarchy of needs to have the luxury of worrying about such things; Deke was trapped between Safety and Love/Belonging, at the very edge of that line, where many modern gang members in extremely dangerous environments spend their brief lives.

But that's all tripe to you, anyway. You'd hate a game that worried about things like that, was inspired by such wasteful, introspective drivel. And that's fine with me.

Quote from: Jackalope;257339But you probably played that character once, if you aren't just making shit up.

Well, you could click the link and see I'm not making shit up, but yes, I played him once, in a play-by-post game, which is like 1000 times in PBP "dog years." :rotfl:

Quote from: Jackalope;257339And we don't need to shun and ridicule you, you're not actually part of the gaming hobby.  You're just Serious Paul's boyfriend who he games with a few times a year.

Uh, no. I'm Serious Paul's boyfriend who he games with a few times a month. Duh! Seriously, the guy's got a wife, and they have two girlfriends; how much time do you think he has for fucking me? Well, also, we're both straight, but don't let petty facts get in the way of your ridicule.

Quote from: Idinsinuation;257357It all depends on context and level of detail, that argument is too vague for this discussion.

Which is, sort of, what I mean, only more reasonably framed.

Quote from: Engine;257491Which is, sort of, what I mean, only more reasonably framed.

Ah ok.

Quote from: Engine;257490It serves essentially the same purpose as playing a 12-year-old deckhand in a historical naval game, only in this case, it's history forward, not history backward, if that makes any sense. It's about the essential animalism of humanity, and is a reflection in fiction of the real 12-year-old murderers who grow up in abhorrent circumstances, in this case, wrecked inner cities. Such people don't question the basic morality that drives people in more civilized times, because they cannot rise high enough on Maslow's hierarchy of needs to have the luxury of worrying about such things; Deke was trapped between Safety and Love/Belonging, at the very edge of that line, where many modern gang members in extremely dangerous environments spend their brief lives.

But that's all tripe to you, anyway. You'd hate a game that worried about things like that, was inspired by such wasteful, introspective drivel. And that's fine with me.

Engine, you're talking directly out of your ass. I guess I don't mind, since no one here takes you seriously, but maybe you should consider asking some questions instead of just leaping to wildly unsupported and incorrect conclusions.

I mean seriously: fuck you Engine.  I'm the guy who invented post-traumatic stress disorder rules to model the slow degradation of an adventurers humanity and sanity in the face of bloodshed.

One of my current characters, Carmen Fortunado, has watched her alignment shift ever so glacially towards lawful evil as she becomes more and more obsessed with combating evil by any means necessary, and let me tell you that journey of hers as very much been inspired by "wasteful, introspective drivel."

That said, you're still a fucking loser, and I wouldn't let you play in my game.  I mean seriously, a twelve year old psychopath? That's some boring, inane, "look at me be edgy" crap.

You can spout off about Maslow's heirarchy of needs til you're blue in the face, but at the end of the day either you're totally misrepresenting the charcater, or you're attempt to create a deep and meaningful character is a sad and pathetic exercise in being a lame, unimaginative lawncrapper.

QuoteWell, you could click the link and see I'm not making shit up, but yes, I played him once, in a play-by-post game, which is like 1000 times in PBP "dog years." :rotfl:

That's not real gaming.

QuoteUh, no. I'm Serious Paul's boyfriend who he games with a few times a month. Duh! Seriously, the guy's got a wife, and they have two girlfriends; how much time do you think he has for fucking me? Well, also, we're both straight, but don't let petty facts get in the way of your ridicule.

Dude, I so don't want to know anything about your sad and pathetic sex lives.  Really, I did not want to know that Paul was a poly.  Now you guys are just that much creepier and sad.

Quote from: Jackalope;257765I'm the guy who invented post-traumatic stress disorder rules to model the slow degradation of an adventurers humanity and sanity in the face of bloodshed.

"You can spout off about [post-traumatic stress disorder] til you're blue in the face, but at the end of the day either you're totally misrepresenting the charcater, or you're attempt to create a deep and meaningful character is a sad and pathetic exercise in being a lame, unimaginative lawncrapper."

Quote from: Jackalope;257765One of my current characters, Carmen Fortunado, has watched her alignment shift ever so glacially towards lawful evil as she becomes more and more obsessed with combating evil by any means necessary, and let me tell you that journey of hers as very much been inspired by "wasteful, introspective drivel."

"I'd kick you out of a group for making a character like that. Stupid pointless edgy crap that serves no purpose at all. I mean seriously, where the [originality] in a character like that? There isn't any. It's just stupid 'look at me! look at me! I'm being EDGY!' garbage."

Fortunately, it's easy to tell where your writing leaves off and mine begins. You know, from the spelling and punctuation. No discredit to you, of course, mine's just, you know, better.

Quote from: Jackalope;257765That's not real gaming.

Interesting. Many of the games I've enjoyed most have been play-by-post, and I certainly felt they were "real gaming." I'm not sure why you wouldn't, but that's fine.

Quote from: Jackalope;257765Dude, I so don't want to know anything about your sad and pathetic sex lives.  Really, I did not want to know that Paul was a poly.  Now you guys are just that much creepier and sad.

Hey, don't say "you guys!" I'm very much a one-woman-at-a-time kind of guy most of the time. I'm not saying if a second woman should be involved, I'm out the room, but I'm an old man, and I smoke, and I just don't feel like I can give proper attention to a pile of women at once.

Hey, you're the one who brought up my sex life. Prurient pisspot.

Quote from: Engine;257794"You can spout off about [post-traumatic stress disorder] til you're blue in the face, but at the end of the day either you're totally misrepresenting the charcater, or you're attempt to create a deep and meaningful character is a sad and pathetic exercise in being a lame, unimaginative lawncrapper."

I wasn't talking about a character, I was talking about a recurring theme in my games.  So, pretty asinine use of my own quote there.  A real failure of reading comprehension.

Quote"I'd kick you out of a group for making a character like that. Stupid pointless edgy crap that serves no purpose at all. I mean seriously, where the [originality] in a character like that? There isn't any. It's just stupid 'look at me! look at me! I'm being EDGY!' garbage."

It's hardly 'edgy'.  The noble warrior whose humanity is the first casualty of war a common theme in western literature that has been explored many times.  It also has strong personal relevance to me, given who my dad is.

Twelve-year old axe-weilding psychopaths who gleefully murder people are far more edgy.

QuoteFortunately, it's easy to tell where your writing leaves off and mine begins. You know, from the spelling and punctuation. No discredit to you, of course, mine's just, you know, better.

Too bad it didn't amount to an actual response, and really just made you look dim-witted.

QuoteInteresting. Many of the games I've enjoyed most have been play-by-post, and I certainly felt they were "real gaming." I'm not sure why you wouldn't, but that's fine.

Because real gaming is a social activity that occurs around a table (generally).  Play by post gaming is more like collaborative story writing.

QuoteHey, you're the one who brought up my sex life. Prurient pisspot.

No, I didn't.  When I say you're Paul's boyfriend, I'm not talking about your sex life.  I'm commenting on the way the two of you operate like a tag-team, finishing each others thoughts, carrying on each others arguments, leaping to each others defense, as if you were a couple.  Hell, I'm not even calling you two gay, I've made it pretty clear I think Paul's a big girl.  Seriously man, learn to read.  I've made this quite explicit several times.

Quote from: Jackalope;257843I wasn't talking about a character, I was talking about a recurring theme in my games.

Oh, damn. You're quite right. I should have said, "You can spout off about [post-traumatic stress disorder] til you're blue in the face, but at the end of the day either you're totally misrepresenting the [theme of the game], or you're attempt to create a deep and meaningful [theme] is a sad and pathetic exercise in being a lame, unimaginative lawncrapper."

Quote from: Jackalope;257843It's hardly 'edgy'.  The noble warrior whose humanity is the first casualty of war a common theme in western literature that has been explored many times.

And the child warrior who has grown up in conditions we would consider horrific is, as well. Maybe...wow, maybe both characters are valid, and neither are just "edgy," whatever that is!

Quote from: Jackalope;257843Because real gaming is a social activity that occurs around a table (generally).  Play by post gaming is more like collaborative story writing.

I don't think it has to be. I think your definition of "real gaming" is unnecessarily limited, and perhaps you should broaden your horizons to include other sorts of games than the ones you prefer. Your "real" is not the only real.

Quote from: Jackalope;257843When I say you're Paul's boyfriend, I'm not talking about your sex life.  I'm commenting on the way the two of you operate like a tag-team, finishing each others thoughts, carrying on each others arguments, leaping to each others defense, as if you were a couple.

Oh, shit, you mean Paul and I are friends who agree on things? Shit, I've got boyfriends all over the place, then! Maybe a different word would be appropriate; something like "friend who agrees on things," rather than "boyfriend," which already has a meaning, which isn't "friend who agrees on things." I'm sorry if you don't have any friends here who agree with you; that must be very difficult. Probably explains all the pot smoking you do while posting. Don't drown your sorrows, man; just make some friends. And then have opinions someone might share.

Oh, damn it. Bad Engine! No petrol. I know it's Friday and I'm feeling amusement-filled, but glee isn't any better a reason to toss feces about. My apologies to readers of the thread who were distressed by my diversion with Jack; my only defense is absence of malice, and it's not a particularly good one.

Please feel free to continue, Jack, but I feel I've personally let myself down in terms of the behavior I expect from myself, so I shall bow out in personal shame.

Quote from: Jackalope;257843Because real gaming is a social activity that occurs around a table (generally).  Play by post gaming is more like collaborative story writing.

Only if there is no resolution system whatsoever involved: otherwise it's just like playing at a table, except for longer (much longer) delays between each turn.

My players come up with underage characters from time to time, mostly in one-shot games. One of the best was a "kid hacker" who somehow managed not to be boring or lame.

One of my players in a recent action / comedy Risus game (my wife) ended up playing the cliched, oversexed, underage ninja schoolgirl. It was done for laughs and not explicit at all, and didn't cause any problems.

But my group is all close friends, and we know each other's boundaries quite well. I wouldn't pull something like that in my more casually acquainted gaming group.

Quote from: GrimGent;257884Only if there is no resolution system whatsoever involved: otherwise it's just like playing at a table, except for longer (much longer) delays between each turn.

Those much larger delays significantly alter the nature of the game into something other than what I think of as gaming, which I automatically apply "tabletop" to.

PBP gaming is "gaming," but it's not tabletop gaming anymore than video games are "gaming."

But hey, YMMV.

Quote from: ticopelp;257953But my group is all close friends, and we know each other's boundaries quite well.

Careful, according to Jack this makes you all homosexuals.

Quote from: Engine;257850And the child warrior who has grown up in conditions we would consider horrific is, as well. Maybe...wow, maybe both characters are valid, and neither are just "edgy," whatever that is!

Really? that's a feature of western literature? Could you please give an example?

RPGPundit

Quote from: Serious Paul;258178Careful, according to Jack this makes you all homosexuals.

Two of them are homosexuals. I guess that means Jackalope won't come to our games. Although he also wouldn't come because the group allows women and talking in-character. The list is getting pretty long, come to think of it.

Quote from: ticopelp;258260Two of them are homosexuals. I guess that means Jackalope won't come to our games. Although he also wouldn't come because the group allows women and talking in-character. The list is getting pretty long, come to think of it.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that I have some kind of problem with homosexuals.  One of the best players I ever had was gay.  He's the guy who introduced me to Ninjas & Superspies.  And I've never said I won't game with women (there are two women in my Pathfinder Society group).  And finally, I only said that people who want to have trivial in-character conversations with trivial background characters annoy me, not that I'm opposed to all in-character talking.

Seriously, I wish you knuckleheads would actually pay some fucking attention.  If you're going to bash me, at least know what the fuck you're talking about.

Quote from: RPGPundit;258248Really? that's a feature of western literature? Could you please give an example?

I'm butting in a little, but there's Conan.  Granted, he's not a warrior as a child, but he was raised under horrid circumstances (brutal slavery) and became a mighty warrior in his immediate post-adolescence.  How old was Conan in his first adventure?

!i!

He was in his late teens, at the youngest. Its not the same as the 12 year old axe murderer. I'd really like to know exactly what claims to western literary tradition Engine has, for precedent of the 12 year old axe murderer.

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Quote from: Jackalope;258274I don't know where you're getting the idea that I have some kind of problem with homosexuals.  One of the best players I ever had was gay.  He's the guy who introduced me to Ninjas & Superspies.  And I've never said I won't game with women (there are two women in my Pathfinder Society group).  And finally, I only said that people who want to have trivial in-character conversations with trivial background characters annoy me, not that I'm opposed to all in-character talking.

Seriously, I wish you knuckleheads would actually pay some fucking attention.  If you're going to bash me, at least know what the fuck you're talking about.

What's trivial to you might not be to someone else.

Plus what is stopping you as a GM from making that NPC less trivial?  Is the party interrogating an "trivial" shopkeeper?  Make him a novice member of the sinister cult the party is investigating, or have a villain question the shopkeeper later to get some dirt on the party.  Perhaps the shopkeeper noticed their weapons and/or armor and tips their enemies off so they can better prepare.  Perhaps the shopkeeper gets murdered and the police/city watch find evidence to detain the party.

The point is not to get irritated when players do seemingly trivial things.  Everything can be used to your advantage and employed to help craft your story.  In an RPG nothing is trivial, because the future has not been written.

As for your thoughts on homosexuals, you used the term "boyfriend" to provoke those guys and you wonder why people think you have a problem with homosexuals.

Then there's the subject of your choice of vocabulary.  The moment you use the word Assmuncher you undermine any chance of people taking you seriously.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;258277I'm butting in a little, but there's Conan.  Granted, he's not a warrior as a child, but he was raised under horrid circumstances (brutal slavery) and became a mighty warrior in his immediate post-adolescence.  How old was Conan in his first adventure?

Conan wasn't raised in slavery.   Conan was raised in a village in Cimmeria.  You're thinking of the movie, which is completley (offensively) inaccurate.

And he was 15 or 16 when he first set out in the Vanyr lands, though he was by all marks a full grown man.

The definition of "underage" is dependent of the society. We have played teenager girls in Aquelarre who were to be married being 15, because the society had other mores and that was the way things were done. Those 2 character were manipulative bitches, used sex to get things done, murdered some people, and were the byproduct of being raised in a cutthroat environment like the Borgia era. And it was fine, as we all knew what the ge was about: cutthroat intrigue in the Borgia court.

I have also ran fantasy campaigns in which the PCs were teenager Orlanthi fleeing the Lunar army, and they had to do pretty rough things to escape and fight the enemy, and to avenge the treachery that caused the fall of their families. We had a similar situation in one RQ Vikings campaign. So we had teenager people who made things that, to our perspective would result brutal and horrifying, but made sense in the context of the setting. One of the male PCs, 16 years old, raped a French woman during a raid because that was usual in the era. We didn't dwell on any of this things, we didn't describe them in lovingly detail, but they certainly happened and I asked the players to try to portray the consequences on their PCs. No one was specially stricken by that, really.

Frankly, as usual in this debates, I think that a grain of sand has become the fucking Himalaya. Fucking hysterical crowd unthinking, I think. Oh, and what Clash said.

Quote from: RPGPundit;258279He was in his late teens, at the youngest. Its not the same as the 12 year old axe murderer. I'd really like to know exactly what claims to western literary tradition Engine has, for precedent of the 12 year old axe murderer.

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The youngest murderer in Canada I think was at one point a 12 year old girl who killed three members of her family.  I can't find an article at the moment but I'm pretty sure that's the gist of it.

I doubt he'll be able to back that up, but I suspect you are only asking that question because you are sure of that.  The question here is about context.  What was the purpose of this game and this character?  Was it splatterporn or something deeper than that?  Was it handled with care and exploring a theme, or was it just a chance for Engine to play a psychopath?

If the game details the paranoia of living life as a serial killer, or even the legal system as a killer is processed, then perhaps it could make for an interesting story.  If it's a hack and slash adolescent axe murder fest then perhaps it's a bit shallow.  Not that there's anything wrong with hack and slash, it's just not for me.

Quote from: Jackalope;258274I don't know where you're getting the idea that I have some kind of problem with homosexuals.

Yeah, that came outta nowhere. Maybe it was when you said "go tell it to your boyfriend, pudfucker."

Quote from: Jackalope;258274And I've never said I won't game with women (there are two women in my Pathfinder Society group).  

I could cut and paste from any one of the megathreads where you talk about how "bitches bring too much drama" and women just can't accept being told how stupid their ideas are, but I'm a bit short on time at the moment. maybe later.

You stay awesome, Jackalope!

Quote from: Idinsinuation;258289Not that there's anything wrong with hack and slash, it's just not for me.

Like homosexuality!

Quote from: Jackalope;258286Conan wasn't raised in slavery.   Conan was raised in a village in Cimmeria.  You're thinking of the movie, which is completley (offensively) inaccurate.

Mea culpa -- the movie it was.

Okay, so Conan is off the hook, but what about some of the more murderous protagonists in western fairy tales?  Jack the Giant Killer leaps to mind.  Still, I don't think the spirit of the grimmer fairy tales is captured by a 12-year-old axe murderer.

!i!

Quote from: Ian Absentia;258344Mea culpa -- the movie it was.

Okay, so Conan is off the hook, but what about some of the more murderous protagonists in western fairy tales?  Jack the Giant Killer leaps to mind.  Still, I don't think the spirit of the grimmer fairy tales is captured by a 12-year-old axe murderer.

Yeah, exactly.  Jack the Giant Killer isn't some traumatized freakshow, he's a foolhardy young man who doesn't recognize his own limits and overcomes them through clever thinking.  Jack the Giant Killer is a typical medieval folktale in that it is an allegory for the passage into adulthood.

And while Jack is described as a "youth," he's more likely to be young man than a young boy.  His reward for killing the final giant is, afterall, the hand of King Arthur's daughter.  Not exactly an appropriate prize for a 12 year old.

The youngest group I GMed was a bunch of six year old characters. The first session I just used them as a plot hook. They chased a kitten into the forest and got abducted by goblins. A few of them escaped and told the adults. Five miniutes later, fully armed warriors and Magi teleported in and slew the goblins without breaking a sweat.
 
After that, the players kept asking for more stories where the kids could help out. I used them as kidnapping victims, baker street irregulars, and even gave them a couple of pint sized adventures where they evaded drunken pirates and stood their ground against a mean dog. Eventualy I shipped the lot of them off to magical boarding school and never ran an adventure with them again.
 
Dang. In hindsight I realize I was *this* close to inventing Harry Potter. :p

Quote from: Engine;257158No, seriously, I played a 12-year-old boy who killed people. Murdered them. Slaughtered them, with glee and an axe. Shouldn't I be shunned or ridiculed or something? Or is it only sex-and-children that's deserving of reprehension, not ultraviolence-and-children?

To my mind the point is that children should not be murdered or raped. That is to say, child murderers aren't the same as murdered children.
 
 
But for the sake of argument if you had a bunch of 12 year old boy player-characters that you steered into gory death to satisfy your self avowed murdered child fantasy needs then yes, I would encourage Pundit to put some sulphur and brimstone in his pipe and get rid of ya.

It all depends on how you defne "underage".

One of my best campaign was run in 1990/1991.  it was nicknamed the "Magic Bus" campaign or story. The premise was that a typical commuter bus somehow got Zapped! or "BEAMED" to another planet while in the midst of rush hour traffic.  The player characters were all passengers on the bus and were asked to create characters for 1986-era North America/USA and tell me why they were riding the bus that day in the game - they had no idea of what was ghoibg to happen in the rest of the campaign after that.

 I created about 15 NPCs to fill out the rest of the bus passengers, then rolled to see which ones "survived" the cosmic special-effects laden trip to another planet & star system.


Here's the part related to the thread topic:
One of those NPCs I created was based on a 15 year old gorl that most of the players knew or had met. As I based the bus route on one that a lot of college kids and High Scool kids noirmally ride around rush hour.   Then , one of the players suggested "Hey , why don't we ask J___ T___ to join tyhe game? She could play Jenny"
Well "J____T____" did join the group - playing a character that was originally based on her. She also started immediately always sitting near my GM spot as I ran the game...and a few thought she might have a 'crush' on the GM.  Not a big deal really - but I had an underage kid playing an underage kid, even though she was in MENSA that was the reality of it .  The  group was 4 women and 1 man as the players, 5 women if you coutnt that added player.

In the contecxt of the game it worked out and her character did contribut. She was basically playing a slightly altered version of herself. In real life she had gone camping with her family and her family's friend - so she did know basic outdoor survival skills.

Guees I'm saying it all depends on the context of the game you are running...and what and who your players are comfortable with.


- Ed C.

Yeah, okay, so that was a creepy story.

Quote from: RPGPundit;258248Really? that's a feature of western literature? Could you please give an example?

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Not that I'm all up in Engine's biznezz.... or even that its a remarkable strong case, but in Neuromancer, by William Gibson, one of the characters was a former member of a cannabilistic gang of street kids in the ruins of Berlin.

Of course, he betrays everyone and isn't the main protagonist... and its all character history rather than being played out on the pages but....

Quote from: Koltar;258439Well "J____T____" did join the group - playing a character that was originally based on her. She also started immediately always sitting near my GM spot as I ran the game...and a few thought she might have a 'crush' on the GM.

"Dear Penthouse Forum..."

!i!

Quote from: Ian Absentia;258497"Dear Penthouse Forum..."

!i!

Yeah - and screw you Ian, it was innocent.
I got a code of honor - and it was the other players who noted it.

context is everything


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;258520Yeah - and screw you Ian, it was innocent.
I got a code of honor - and it was the other players who noted it.

context is everything

It was mentioning that she sat next to you and that you thought she might have a crush on you.

You are seriously a very, very creepy dude Ed, and I really do think it's only a matter of time before you do something dangerous and criminal to a woman.  Probably an underage woman at that.

You totally remind me of this dude who went be the name "Kevlar" here in Seattle.  He used to run a Star Trek LARP group, a WoD LARP group, and a con security outfit called the Saberhawks.  Some long time Seattle gamers might know him.

He was also a fat, bearded socially maladjusted loser who was always taking a creepy interest in 15 year old girls in the gaming scene.

Quote from: Jackalope;258522You are seriously a very, very creepy dude Ed, and I really do think it's only a matter of time before you do something dangerous and criminal to a woman.  Probably an underage woman at that.

Jesus fuck, Jackalope.  That was really, really uncool.  No, no -- that was shitty.

I can't tell you what you can and can post.  I can't ban you.  But I can call you out on your shit, and I'm doing so.  That was a real asswipe thing to say, to anyone.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;258531Jesus fuck, Jackalope.  That was really, really uncool.  No, no -- that was shitty.

I can't tell you what you can and can post.  I can't ban you.  But I can call you out on your shit, and I'm doing so.  That was a real asswipe thing to say, to anyone.

Okay, fine, it's a "real asswipe" thing to point out.  Doesn't mean it isn't a reasonable thing to think.  Ed has statutory rape waiting to happen written all over him.

Seriously man, he's clearly obsessed with young girls, constantly talking about them, constantly speculating about their interest in him, constantly fantasizing outloud about them.  It's so clear that he invites women to play with him because he's hoping ton "get some," but it's equally clear he's following a futile path.  Eventually the resentment, disappointment and obsession are going to come congeal into something really nasty.

I would, in all seriousness, never allow Ed to be alone with a mentally challenged teenage girl, as an example.  That would be a very dangerous situation.

Okay lads, stop picking on the Kilngon. You guys are just jealous that he lives the Boogie Nights lifestyle and you don't.....

I think Engine was being needlessly provocative, but literature does not have to be the only source of inspiration for these types of characters. Kids who kill for various reasons - ideological, psychological , professionally (soldiers etc) - are common in history and contemporary times. I don't see why one can't or should not transport these types of characters from their historical or contemporary context into a fictional narrative.

I have already mentiond the characters from my IHW campaign.

A fantasy example would be an old AD&D campaign I ran some time ago, that had the PCs beginning play as orphans. One of my players decided to base his character - a 13 year kid - on the Pe Ell character from The Druid of Shannara ( who started his "killer for hire" career, early).

This character was a cold blooded killer much like the character from the book and had a leveled much item which was extremely intelligent and acted as mentor then nemesis to this particular character. It's hard when all you want to be is the setting's "assassin number one" and your blade wants you to be a serial killer.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;258531Jesus fuck, Jackalope.  That was really, really uncool.  No, no -- that was shitty.

I can't tell you what you can and can post.  I can't ban you.  But I can call you out on your shit, and I'm doing so.  That was a real asswipe thing to say, to anyone.

That's because from what I've seen, Jackalope is a bit of an asswipe.


TGA

Quote from: Jackalope;258532Okay, fine, it's a "real asswipe" thing to point out.  Doesn't mean it isn't a reasonable thing to think.  Ed has statutory rape waiting to happen written all over him.

I'm glad you have the qualifications to make this well-assessed statement.

Look, you know what?  I'm not gonna get into shit with you.  In fact,  have a better idea.  Hang on.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;258536I'm glad you have the qualifications to make this well-assessed statement.

Look, you know what?  I'm not gonna get into shit with you.  In fact,  have a better idea.  Hang on.

I did study criminal justice for four years in a university setting, and special victims crimes were my primary area of focus, so yeah...I actually do have the qualifications to make these sorts of statements.  I mean, how many college level courses about sex crimes have you taken?

I've taken none.  There you go -- you made your point.  Gold fucking star.  Now shut the fuck up please.

By the way, I've closed this thread because it went to crap.  If it turns out that it wasn't my place, then it'll be re-opened and I'll be OK with that.

I will only add the following: If someone really wants to open a new thread about underage pcs, though frankly I don't see the point, you are allowed to do so.

You are not allowed to de-evolve that thread into page after page of mudslinging.

And speaking of mudslinging, Jackalope, it is completely inappropriate for you to be hefting those kinds of personal accusations at Koltar. There are limits, even here, and the frequency and severity of the personal attacks you've made on Koltar borders on stalking.

You know that you and I tend to agree more than we disagree on most RPG-subjects.  Please don't make things escalate here.  Just stop saying shit like this, about Koltar. Its enough for you to say that you don't like him and you think he's a fuckhead. Next time you feel like saying what you said above, just say that instead, and we won't have a problem. Though frankly it might be wiser if you just ignored him.

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