Hey all, Weem here, I'm new to The RPG Site (if you couldn't tell from the post count) Been lurking here more and more recently with the issues going on at ENW

So yea,

I've got some players in my campaign that can't help but bicker at each other during the game. They argue over the most idiotic things and it's stressin' me out at this point. It's usually rules stuff (4e) where they claim to know some obscure rule "for sure" and both of their understandings are different... they look it up and of course one is wrong, and as such the one that is wrong gets pissed off, etc.

If it's not a rules thing, it is advising one another what would be the best thing to do for their character, and the resentment that comes from being told what to do, etc. And then if the player gives in and obeys and things go bad there is a "told you so" atmosphere where it is either explicitly stated "See! I should have stayed there!", or covertly commented on multiple times, "that's why I was over there" etc - but it always has a hint of actual anger - not just irritation, they are upset.

Sound like kids? Well, they are in their late 20's...

The Forum-browsing DM in me would say (to a DM in the same situation), "Set em' straight or send em' packin", but of course now it's ME in the situation, MY friends etc. I think confrontation will lead to an argument which will piss ME off, so I have figured I will send an email to the group as a whole mentioning the negative atmosphere and what we need to do to fix it, etc.

So, the questions...

1. Have you as a DM been in this situation before? What did you do and how did it work out?

2. Have you as a PLAYER been the cause of some problem that the DM has felt the need to talk to you about?

In the past, it was easy to use DM fiat to deal with this problem.

These days, it depends on the particular players.  If they're really incorrigible beyond belief, I usually end up throwing them out of the game eventually if it is a 4E game.

Players should never be looking things up in books in game.

That's your fucking job.  The GM is there as a referee for a reason, and part of it is rules adjudication.  You need to assert thyself, young squire.  

Also, a player's actions are his alone.  Not to get too philosophical, but free will is an important element of the roleplaying experience, players must feel like it is their action to make and that it matters.  Interfering with that sacrosanct notion is the height of offense, and it's no wonder people are upset over it.  

This is, unfortunately, something I find occurs whenever a game bases its strategy heavily of rules manipulation instead of basic combat tactics.  It's a common problem in MMO guilds, particularly raiding, where success is at least partially predicated on choosing the most mechanically efficient action, but where the decisions of individual units are divided out to individual players.  Everyone is going to have their own idea what the appropriate strategy for each unit is, and it isn't necessarily going to agree.

Is this group of players generally bickery outside of the game context?  Do they get on well outside of game, do they have fun going out for a pint, but seem to turn into a pack of wolves when the game is involved?

I find this is sometimes the case in groups of friends, that it turns out they don't really get on nearly as well under the structure of a game as they do normally.  One or more players may have a competitive or argumentative side that may make for interesting conversation, but makes for terrible arguments in gaming because of the change in dynamic and consequences of decisions involved.  

The stock advice I'm prone to give, because of my own experiences is usually just to suggest that maybe one's group of friends aren't cut out to game together.  Just because they're all your friends in one context, doesn't mean they're liable to all be compatible in another.  Maybe they have conflicting tastes in gaming that are unlikely to resolve themselves, and you'd be better off building a group more copacetic with your own tastes and GM style.

In my completely unqualified opinion:

New house rule: you're not allowed to tell other players what to do, including commenting on their decisions. And interrupt when someone tries to do it - "uh - rememeber the house rule."

I'm not sure what to do about the rules arguments. The obvious answer is for the DM to make a ruling, but then aren't you supposed to learn and use all the tricky little rules in 4th edition?

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RPGPundit

Quote from: weem;3164041. Have you as a DM been in this situation before? What did you do and how did it work out?

2. Have you as a PLAYER been the cause of some problem that the DM has felt the need to talk to you about?

I've never been the cause of such problem at a game table. I'm very good public and tend to be lenient on the rules, as a player.

Now, when there is an argument at my game table about rules, I'm going to let it work out for a few minutes maybe. I'll try to hear all sides, and I'll make a decision at some point. Once I made up my mind, we get the game moving. It's basically bad form to keep the argument going. If I feel there is more to discuss after I made my decision, we'll talk about it after the game session is over.

Communication is key. Talking things over with the players rather than trying to keep your frustrations to yourself will help. Be diplomatic, try to reach a compromise between all the parties involved. If they are your friends and care about your and your other friends' feelings, they'll want to work this out. If not, then maybe they aren't such good friends after all...

PS: Oh. And welcome to theRPGsite.

I would interrupt a player and inform him or her not to dictate another player's actions. Whenever a player attempted to do this I would remind them firmly. Eventually they should get the point.

I keep rules arguments to a minimum length of time and I, as the GM, am the final arbiter. I never look up rules while GMing (other than charts) and if I'm unaware of something I just make a best guess and move on.

I don't care if players look up rules during the game as long as they do it during a down time (like during someone else's turn). I will not stop and wait for a player to look up a rule, however. I adjudicate and move on and anything looked up can be applied to the next instance, letting the previous ruling stand even if it was in error.

Really it all comes down to the group of players. Most are mature enough to accept your decisions even if they prove wrong and are more interested in having a good time than arguing over minutia. If these issues persist, it may be time to look for some new people to game with.

Normally I am extremely a team player. However, I have gotten into a bickering conflict in a game, generally because the GM, either through poor campaign planning or poor game control has put a party together that has incompatable values and personal goals.

The best example I can think of was where I was playing a very moral PC, and the other player was running an extremely self-centered, self-promoting PC. Our group was supposed to be endeavoring to destroy Ye Olde Ageless Evile. But the other PC, who like me was a hardcore roleplayer, was focused upon gathering wealth, power, and harssing religion in any form it took (that was more the player's attitude showing through). He tookm it to the point of sabatoging our central mission in order to secure personal advantage.

We wasted a lot of game time (this weas a campaign which had run for RL years, with plenty to go) doing this; but for GM ban, I would have killed the other PC (and eventually did, through a 'friendly fire' incident in a fight).

The GM should have either held the creation of PCs to a suitable standard, or modified the party's stated goal/circumstances (even if we were not good guys, Ye Olde Ageless Evile was gunning for us).  

So look at the composition of your group, and the goals, group & personal, thereof, is my advice.

Thanks for the replies and "welcomes"! Let's see...

@J Arcane

QuoteThat's your fucking job. The GM is there as a referee for a reason, and part of it is rules adjudication. You need to assert thyself, young squire.

Yikes! Hehe, yea and I would like to think I do a pretty good job (been doing it 20 years now) - I call the rule right there, like "na, i think it's X but it doesn't matter, keep going it's not important" but even when that quiets them down, one will go digging on is own and bust out with it later "See! Told you!" (to the other player) etc.

@J Arcane

QuoteAlso, a player's actions are his alone. Not to get too philosophical, but free will is an important element of the roleplaying experience, players must feel like it is their action to make and that it matters. Interfering with that sacrosanct notion is the height of offense, and it's no wonder people are upset over it.

Yea, there is one player in particular that is bad with this - but I have told him he needs to cut it down - let people learn on their own.

@J Arcane

QuoteIs this group of players generally bickery outside of the game context? Do they get on well outside of game, do they have fun going out for a pint, but seem to turn into a pack of wolves when the game is involved?

I find this is sometimes the case in groups of friends, that it turns out they don't really get on nearly as well under the structure of a game as they do normally. One or more players may have a competitive or argumentative side that may make for interesting conversation, but makes for terrible arguments in gaming because of the change in dynamic and consequences of decisions involved.

You know, from time to time they do, but generally speaking no... though it is funny, they bicker when playing other games as well (Catan comes to mind)... there are two in particular... I may need to separate them, hehe.

@J Arcane

QuoteThe stock advice I'm prone to give, because of my own experiences is usually just to suggest that maybe one's group of friends aren't cut out to game together. Just because they're all your friends in one context, doesn't mean they're liable to all be compatible in another. Maybe they have conflicting tastes in gaming that are unlikely to resolve themselves, and you'd be better off building a group more copacetic with your own tastes and GM style.

Yea, this is definitely a good idea and was in fact recommended by another player. The two primary guys going at it are, games aside, good friends... but they are roomates as well, and I know when I had a roomate things could get ugly and come out in weird ways. Of course, it would be hard for me to not include either one as I am close to both of them... hmmm...

@Age of Fable

QuoteNew house rule: you're not allowed to tell other players what to do, including commenting on their decisions. And interrupt when someone tries to do it - "uh - rememeber the house rule."

Not a bad idea at all. I may need to do this, thanks

@Age of Fable

QuoteI'm not sure what to do about the rules arguments. The obvious answer is for the DM to make a ruling, but then aren't you supposed to learn and use all the tricky little rules in 4th edition?

Yea, like I commented just above I do this, but they just have to know and will get back to it somehow, sometime - it's like a "gotcha" thing they do back and forth...

@Benoist

QuoteCommunication is key. Talking things over with the players rather than trying to keep your frustrations to yourself will help. Be diplomatic, try to reach a compromise between all the parties involved. If they are your friends and care about your and your other friends' feelings, they'll want to work this out. If not, then maybe they aren't such good friends after all...

Absolutely. It's just crazy, these guys are bringing up rules that go AGAINST each other... their own teammates! One might move a certain way and the other says "You can't do that!" etc. So generally I say something like, "Umm,  he actually can because of X, so keep going", or "Yea he's right you can't" etc, but if they are sure they are right, they are going to go dig it up to prove it later - but it usually doesn't matter when it's me that's wrong - they let that go, but against each other is a different story.

The more I think about it, the more I think I may just need to split them up, hehe.

Thanks again all!

I'm still curious to hear about everyone elses experience with these situations as well! Have you had to get rid of a player you considered a friend for example?

Quote from: weem;3164041. Have you as a DM been in this situation before? What did you do and how did it work out?

2. Have you as a PLAYER been the cause of some problem that the DM has felt the need to talk to you about?

1) Yes. Uninvited the problem players.

2) yes. I'm a bit of a rules lawyer. I decided to leave a BTVS group because the GM was using NPC Stats+DieRoll (NPC stats are defaulted to a "roll of 6 included" level; the GM isn't supposed to even touch the dice...), using Robots as good guys, and not giving me the benefit of my (paid for with CP's) massive wealth.... and further (and this was the point where I handed him my character sheet, and said "Sorry, I'm going home."), insisted upon educational anachronisms galore ignoring the fact that I'm an educator and he's not...

He was upset. He'd never had a player walk before. It's the first time I ever walked DURING session. (My wife continued to play in that game for several months later, and I continued to go over before for board games.)

Before every game session, stand in front of your mirror, tummy in, chest and chin up and say to your reflection, "I am the GM, I wear the Viking Hat, players are my bitches!"

When they bicker, mock them mercilessly.
"Are you two done flirting?"
"I rule against the next one to speak."
"The next rule disagreement will be settled by the two of you arm-wrestling."
"Whatever you say at the table is said in character. So, while you're bickering ninja zombies enter the room and get to attack by surprise."

In this way, you unite the group by giving them a common enemy they fear - you.

When GMing, I usually just point to an action figure I keep on the table and say "Space Gorilla rules that you are wrong." That way they blame Space Gorilla and not me.

But seriously, I'm glad someone mentioned mocking the players, because while it's not a "policy" as such, that's usually how it works out organically at our gaming table.

While it's not exactly bickering, we have a player who likes to complain a lot about how "ineffective" he is (usually just before his character flies into the air and lays waste to the countryside with a barrage of high-level spells). We've managed to short-circuit his whining by calling him a chump every time he defeats an enemy and / or successfully does something.

"I'm surprised you cut through all ten goblins in one round, given how totally ineffective you are at everything."

"Wow! That was a close one! I know that the barest sneeze will knock your mystic theurge into a coma."

Petty and crass, but it's good-natured teasing and he takes it in stride. And he complains less. We're also careful not to goad him when he actually does fail at something (but because he's such a power-gamer, he rarely fails at anything, so it all works out).

Quote from: weem;316404I've got some players in my campaign that can't help but bicker at each other during the game. They argue over the most idiotic things and it's stressin' me out at this point.

1.  Make sure you are 100% familiar with the rules.  Then you arbitrate and your ruling is THE LAW during the game.   No looking up shit ever.  It slows down the game.  Fuck that noise.

2.  Players CAN choose not to bicker.

3.  If players don't change the behavior, kick out the fucktards.

4.  No gaming is better than stressful gaming.

Quote from: weem;3164041. Have you as a DM been in this situation before? What did you do and how did it work out?

Sure.  I gored them with the horns on my Viking helmet.  

I run lots of convention games with groups of strangers and this behavior occassionally pops up with siblings in the game or two or more players who engage in this dickless bitch nonsense.  

If its a rules issue, I make a ruling and THAT IS LAW for our session.  Of course, this is easy for me since I run stuff that I know well.   I never allow rules bitching and I make it known clearly.  

If its bickering between characters, I am cool with it.  Bickering between players, gets my "cut that shit out now" look.  If that doesn't work, I serve them a big plate of shut the fuck up with an invitation to eat up or leave the table.  

I have had people get up and leave.   Every time, the rest of the table has thanked me once Captain Ass Wonder is out of the room and sometimes they thank me before the shitbag leaves.   A couple of times I've gotten clapping.

If player bullshit is getting to the GM, then you know 100% that its already pissed off the other players.  Gaming time belongs to everyone at the group and one or two fuck monkeys have zero right to crap on everyone's time.

A variation on this is the Rules Guy who tells everyone what to do and I just tell him that point blank to his face to handle his own character.  I play boardgames too so I see this form of jackass regularly.   When I run games with kids, the one kid who flipped through the rules once often declares himself Rules Master and tries to dominate the other kids.   I step on that shit immediately and make sure I give extra attention to the kid who is just trying to learn the game and let him make his own mistakes.  

My 4e specific advice is that everyone needs Power Cards for all their powers.   If you don't want to buy them, then a photocopier + cardboard + scissors + some CCG protectors does the job.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;316522Before every game session, stand in front of your mirror, tummy in, chest and chin up and say to your reflection, "I am the GM, I wear the Viking Hat, players are my bitches!"

When they bicker, mock them mercilessly.
"Are you two done flirting?"
"I rule against the next one to speak."
"The next rule disagreement will be settled by the two of you arm-wrestling."
"Whatever you say at the table is said in character. So, while you're bickering ninja zombies enter the room and get to attack by surprise."

In this way, you unite the group by giving them a common enemy they fear - you.

You also stand good odds of gaming by yourself.

That kind of capricious behavior works only so long except for certain codependant dweebs, who seek to be abused.

Everyone says shit like that, Aramis, but it rarely happens. I've only ever lost one player by saying, "shut the fuck up and roll the dice", and that person never stuck with any other game group, either.

A couple of dozen others have happily stuck around. Maybe they were all "codependent dweebs", or maybe - just maybe - you're full of shit.

See, you're all focused on players being upset at rude words from the GM. But in fact players get more upset at a session turning to shit and an afternoon or evening wasted because of two idiots bickering about nothing.

Remember: The game must go on. People will forgive a lot of flaws in a movie, game or story if it at least moves quickly.