Oddly, I feel like Plane Scape is the only setting that lets the D&D leveling mechanic make sense. I always feel like I have to house rule the shit out of D&D to have fun, where as in Plane Scape, I don't have to.

Quote from: Cranewings;392706Oddly, I feel like Plane Scape is the only setting that lets the D&D leveling mechanic make sense. I always feel like I have to house rule the shit out of D&D to have fun, where as in Plane Scape, I don't have to.

I agree with that actually. It's sort of like steps to godhood. The mistake they made was making "the powers" so infinitely powerful that even level 20 wasn't enough.

I would have liked a Basic D&D style mechanic for becoming Immortal. Then you could gather worshipers and eventually become a deity.

While in principle I agree that in D&D, one need not make the powers beyond reach of mortals, in Planescape, the whole "standing in the shadows of gods" feel seems an implicit part of the setting to me.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;392736While in principle I agree that in D&D, one need not make the powers beyond reach of mortals, in Planescape, the whole "standing in the shadows of gods" feel seems an implicit part of the setting to me.

It's just that they make a point of saying that it is possible to become a deity if you get people worshiping you... while they never give that any mechanical expression. I know it's probably a rare event and not the point of the game necessarily. But I always loved the idea. D&D is all about ambition, really, at the end of the day, and they should have made more of the fact that Planescape is the most ambitious setting of the lot.

Quote from: noisms;392738It's just that they make a point of saying that it is possible to become a deity if you get people worshiping you... while they never give that any mechanical expression. I know it's probably a rare event and not the point of the game necessarily. But I always loved the idea. D&D is all about ambition, really, at the end of the day, and they should have made more of the fact that Planescape is the most ambitious setting of the lot.

I don't think Planescape is so much about ambition. In PS, ambition can get you in trouble. That's a repeated theme I see. :cool:

Yeah, it's possible to become a deity in PS, but in situations where it does happen, it seem serendipitous and decidedly unfair. If you want it in game terms, it seems it would be more in terms of an adventure uncovering some great secret. Having all PCs simultaneously and inevitably progress towards godhood seems more an Exalted feel to me than a PS feel.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;392740I don't think Planescape is so much about ambition. In PS, ambition can get you in trouble. That's a repeated theme I see. :cool:

Yeah, it's possible to become a deity in PS, but in situations where it does happen, it seem serendipitous and decidedly unfair. If you want it in game terms, it seems it would be more in terms of an adventure uncovering some great secret. Having all PCs simultaneously and inevitably progress towards godhood seems more an Exalted feel to me than a PS feel.

I like to think of Planescape as being about ambition and the risks of ambition. I know this is getting more and more story-gamish by the second, but it always seemed to me like there was a heady mix of a) potential to change the multiverse and b) the multiverse can gobble you up at any second, involved. And that's what made the setting really interesting.

Quote..I know this is getting more and more story-gamish by the second, but it always seemed to me like there was a heady mix of a) potential to change the multiverse..

I agree, but only because differently from other settings, in Planescape this "potential to change the multiverse" actually functions on a personal/small scale level. So if a boy down the street just had his pet killed but he refuses to believe in that , the little pet may very well return to life. I find this awesome.

And a nice description of the settign by one of its very authors, Monte Cook. It touches lighty some points were discussing here.

I must have been playing the wrong Planescape.

In the version I played, players would go down to Plague-Mort and get into brawls with demons, have chariot races through the streets of Sigil, steal stuff from hags in the Abyss, outwit a group of frost giants and howlers on the plane of Pandemonium, and get psionically seduced by hyper-intelligent spiders. Then you would go back to Sigil and try not to get screwed over by the Dabus or the Lady of Pain. Tons of urban adventure, visits to the elemental planes, getting lost...

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;392770I must have been playing the wrong Planescape.

In the version I played, players would go down to Plague-Mort and get into brawls with demons, have chariot races through the streets of Sigil, steal stuff from hags in the Abyss, outwit a group of frost giants and howlers on the plane of Pandemonium, and get psionically seduced by hyper-intelligent spiders. Then you would go back to Sigil and try not to get screwed over by the Dabus or the Lady of Pain. Tons of urban adventure, visits to the elemental planes, getting lost...

Isn't that the beauty of it? That you can do all those things and also do pretentious pseudo-intellectual nitwit stuff like we were talking about? The setting had everything!

All this talk is giving me a real hankering to play Planescape again.

Quote from: noisms;392773Isn't that the beauty of it? That you can do all those things and also do pretentious pseudo-intellectual nitwit stuff like we were talking about? The setting had everything!

All this talk is giving me a real hankering to play Planescape again.

It kinda is. My girlfriend has been bugging me to run a Planescape thing too. I'm integrating Spelljammer stuff into my LFR night right night now, but I think it might be cool to do a Pscape thingy soon.

Quote from: noisms;392744I like to think of Planescape as being about ambition and the risks of ambition. I know this is getting more and more story-gamish by the second, but it always seemed to me like there was a heady mix of a) potential to change the multiverse and b) the multiverse can gobble you up at any second, involved. And that's what made the setting really interesting.

I agree. That's what was kind of mind-blowing about Planescape to my high-school brain. It was different categorically from other D&D settings.

So here's where the reflexive disdain/suspicion of theRPGsite.com toward story/indie/etc games stops making sense, to me.

Many people have commented that - for them - the appeal of the setting is this *other* stuff. Yes, you can run a great Planescape game about monster-bashing across the planes, but lots of people obviously respond to the other stuff. Like philosophy, godhood, ambition, factional beliefs, etc.

What's so wrong with an RPG about that stuff? If that's what interests you about the setting, wouldn't a game about that stuff be a good thing?

I say this not to be combative. I'm genuinely curious as to the response.

PS - My ideal Planescape game would be a mix, where my character argued with a planar traveler in a souk about philosophy and later had to out-run a demon hound and then got in a sword-fight with a tiefling assassin ... and the rules of the game accounted for all that stuff, and made it all equally important and/or fun.

Also, while I loved Planescape, I kind of hated Spelljammer. I'm not sure I can adequately explain why.

BWA, be sure to check my explanation of the afiliation/belief system on the last page. It promotes the motto "Belief shapes reality" much better than the Belief system that you criticized, on Planewaler Handbook.

Right, forgot to comment on that.

I think that approach is definitely preferable to the other one. If you act on your belief that, say, each life is a test, and every person has the potential to become a god (Godsmen), then the EFFECT that has on your character should be to make him more or less Godsmen-y, rather than better at picking pockets or fighting.

A list of powers or characteristics or in-game traits/benefits common to your faction, gained or lost as your went up and down the Belief Scale (or whatever) would be very Planescape-y, to me.

(Although a more unified mechanic would be more elegant. I have a weakness for unified mechanics over subsystems. That's just a personal preference, though.)