Even if I love PS, I think its implementation as a game doesn’t match its conceptual ideas very well. I find D&D crunchiness and wargamism kindof out of place in the setting.

So, what about we try to come up with nice gaming premisses that fits the setting ones, preferentially in ways that promote those premises actively, Indie-games style?

I don’t know indie-games very well, but I read about them, and I know a lot of them is about something. So, I think the first step would be to define the about somethings for Planescape - the power of belief? Exploring belief? Exploring realities? Exploring philosophy?

One thing that would be cool to implement in a new system would be the setting´s 3 central premisses: The Rule of Threes; The Unity of Rings and The Center of All. I think the Rule of Threes would be easier to implement than the others - all comes in three: 3 atribs/aspects/stats; 3 drives/beliefs/motivations; 3 part-name chars; 3 -line background; 3 itens from start; etc. Besides that the setting´s idea that Belief Shapes Reality could be given its own mechanic (the Avatar mechanic from Unknown Armies and the Affiliations mechanic from D&D3.5 comes to mind ).


What do you guys think of this idea?

Ok, serious question: Did someone dare you to write this here?

Haha.

Anyhow, I don't think Planescape is about belief. Planescape is about adventuring in Sigil and the Outlands. Which are places full of monsters, fantastic (in the Baron Munchausen sense) characters and plots, and extremely unlikely landscapes. Making it about belief or philosophy would make it a lot less interesting.

Quote from: Abyssal MawOk, serious question: Did someone dare you to write this here?

QuoteAnyhow, I don't think Planescape is about belief. Planescape is about adventuring in Sigil and the Outlands. Which are places full of monsters, fantastic (in the Baron Munchausen sense) characters and plots, and extremely unlikely landscapes. Making it about belief or philosophy would make it a lot less interesting.

..and its a perfectly valid and cool point! How a game about exploring awesome and unlikely landscapes would be?

Maybe defining the char stats as exclusively around this, and even bringing alignment to the foreground, so it influences decisively in that exploration? (or even changing the alignments to something like Penndragon´s virtues? This way, the characters could explore the planes geographicaly and metaphoricaly? )

Or alternatively, including a storygame mechanic for letting the players imagine those awesomely unlikely places themselves, Munchausen-style?

It's like you showed up at a frat party with a kick me sign on your back.

That's not me trying to discredit what you are wanting to do.  But this is so totally not the place for it.

There's nothing inherently tied to D&D in Planescape.  It's just a setting put it with whatever favorite system you want and go on your zany adventures.

Why the fuck not? I mean, Planescape is already the Swinified-setting for the D&D Planes...

RPGpundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;392420Why the fuck not? I mean, Planescape is already the Swinified-setting for the D&D Planes...

RPGpundit

Why do you hate Planescape anyways, Pundit? You've probably covered it at some point, but I didn't see it.

Quote from: silva;392289Even if I love PS, I think its implementation as a game doesn't match its conceptual ideas very well. I find D&D crunchiness and wargamism kindof out of place in the setting.

I played PS using FATE and it was quite good.  The aspects allowed people to focus more on the power of beliefs and have that mechanically enhance their actions in the setting.  

Quote from: silva;392289I don't know indie-games very well, but I read about them, and I know a lot of them is about something.

WTF?  Every RPG is ABOUT something!!

Just because "kill & loot" is what most players do with most games doesn't mean that the RPG didn't present much more in its setting and concept.

"Indie-Games" have ZERO monopoly on "story" or "focus"

Quote from: RPGPundit;392420I mean, Planescape is already the Swinified-setting for the D&D Planes...

All aboard the crazy train! Choo! Choo!

Quote from: Spinachcat;392448All aboard the crazy train! Choo! Choo!

This forum would be 50% less fun without Pundy's tinfoil-hat ranting about Teh Ebul Swine.

And 99% less fun if people other than Settembrini actually bought it.

Quote from: silva;392289Even if I love PS, I think its implementation as a game doesn't match its conceptual ideas very well. I find D&D crunchiness and wargamism kindof out of place in the setting.

So, what about we try to come up with nice gaming premisses that fits the setting ones, preferentially in ways that promote those premises actively, Indie-games style?

Whatchoo talking about Willis?

QuoteI don't know indie-games very well, but I read about them, and I know a lot of them is about something. So, I think the first step would be to define the about somethings for Planescape - the power of belief? Exploring belief? Exploring realities? Exploring philosophy?

One thing that would be cool to implement in a new system would be the setting´s 3 central premisses: The Rule of Threes; The Unity of Rings and The Center of All. I think the Rule of Threes would be easier to implement than the others - all comes in three: 3 atribs/aspects/stats; 3 drives/beliefs/motivations; 3 part-name chars; 3 -line background; 3 itens from start; etc. Besides that the setting´s idea that Belief Shapes Reality could be given its own mechanic (the Avatar mechanic from Unknown Armies and the Affiliations mechanic from D&D3.5 comes to mind ).

What do you guys think of this idea?

Well, it's not purely repugnant, but the resemblance to Tri-stat and the explicit mention of Unknown Armies are two things that cool any excitement I had.

I think PS could use a few peripheral rules like the affliation mechanic you mention, at its core, it still need to be heavily trad fantasy. A well written d20 derivative would be best IMO.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;392291Anyhow, I don't think Planescape is about belief. Planescape is about adventuring in Sigil and the Outlands.

Planescape adventures are about belief. Motivating factors of opposing forces are about belief, conundrums facing the players are about beleifs. A village slipping into hell because it became too evil becomes and obstacle in one adventure. In another, players grapple with the issue of whether a newly created creature born of angelic and demonic essences has a right to exist. And so on.

This does not have to explicitly represent itself as rules-grist. And really, I think it might be better that it doesn't, because if it does, that becomes a handle for metagamers to take it to the metagame level. Which is ultimately bad for what PS is about.

IMO, YMMV, and all that.

The Planewalker's Handbook already had a sort-of story-game-ish mechanic called Belief Points. The idea was, if I remember correctly, you got Belief Points every time your character did something extraordinary in the name of their personal philosophical system. You could then spend Belief Points to gain either re-rolls or automatic successes (can't remember exactly) - the idea being that belief could literally affect reality on the planes.

Planescape is TOTALLY about belief and philosophy. (And, yes, it is also a weird and interesting setting full of cool monsters and fabulous villains).

I started a Lady Blackbird hack for Planescape where each character kad a key tied to their faction. I never finished it; I couldn't think of a good situation, plus not enough gamers I know dig Planescape. (The characters are here, if anyone is interested.)

I think a Planescape RPG (whether you want to call it "indie" or not) which had factional beliefs as a central game mechanic, instead of just there as color, would rock.

Quote from: noisms;392527The Planewalker's Handbook already had a sort-of story-game-ish mechanic called Belief Points. The idea was, if I remember correctly, you got Belief Points every time your character did something extraordinary in the name of their personal philosophical system. You could then spend Belief Points to gain either re-rolls or automatic successes (can't remember exactly) - the idea being that belief could literally affect reality on the planes.

I like that. Except it runs into the same problem you get when you tack on a non-standard XP system to D&D. The new system sort of fuels the behavior/gameplay that you want, but the reward is just to be able to do regular D&D stuff better (ie - fighting monsters).

Which is great if you game is about fighting monsters, but not great if your game is supposed to be about philosophical conflict.

QuoteI think a Planescape RPG (whether you want to call it "indie" or not) which had factional beliefs as a central game mechanic, instead of just there as color, would rock.

Thats the spirit! :hatsoff:

Quote

QuoteThe Planewalker's Handbook already had a sort-of story-game-ish mechanic called Belief Points. The idea was, if I remember correctly, you got Belief Points every time your character did something extraordinary in the name of their personal philosophical system. You could then spend Belief Points to gain either re-rolls or automatic successes (can't remember exactly) - the idea being that belief could literally affect reality on the planes.

I like that. Except it runs into the same problem you get when you tack on a non-standard XP system to D&D. The new system sort of fuels the behavior/gameplay that you want, but the reward is just to be able to do regular D&D stuff better (ie - fighting monsters).

True.

I think that, as Caesar Salad said, the afiliation mechanic from D&D would be more appropriate to model this. It works like this..

- You have a rating in a scale from 1 to 50, representing your belief "progress". Each time you act according to your belief in a decisive way, you gain points in the scale. When your rating reach certain "steps" in the scale (eg: 10, 20, 30) you gain "powers" or benefits according to the belief.

I think its a better representation because it makes you alter reality only in ways related to your beliefs (thus escaping the nonsense of turning chars better at bashing enemies whatever his beliefs). And, by the way, the scale rating can in fact decrease, if you violate the behavior espected by your belief. So you can actually lose your capacity to alter reality if you stop believing.  

So its OK to take a traditional game and "swine'afy" it here in the RPG section. But its not OK to discuss a traditional game (Hot War) written by a "Story games" author? Seriously, Pundit this should be moved to other games. Otherwise, you really are a hippocrit.

Quote from: Ronin;392692So its OK to take a traditional game and "swine'afy" it here in the RPG section. But its not OK to discuss a traditional game (Hot War) written by a "Story games" author? Seriously, Pundit this should be moved to other games. Otherwise, you really are a hippocrit.