Well, I can't see how this arguement really can be anything but that, though, Alnag.

Quote from: Thanatos02Well, I can't see how this arguement really can be anything but that, though, Alnag.

Tony's already lost the argument. He doesn't know what the swine are, so he's setting out to disprove their existence based on a completely mistaken premise.

Also I thought this was funny:

"They also don't, by and large, seem pretentious or deceitful or spiteful or bitter, or any of the things that all Swine apparently are."

I can totally name an iconic swine for each one of these traits! Heck, I could fit Matt Snyder into three of them at least.

Quote from: Blue DevilThere are no swine, there are simply people playing different ways.   People who play D20, Gurps, Dogs in the Vineyard, games that are story based are all gamers in the same hobby playing different things.

Oh, there are definitely Swine. There's just no Swine Menace, no movement (organized or otherwise) with the capability to negatively impact the hobby as a whole.

Roleplayers being elitist assholes are all over the place, especially on the internet where the cowardly ones don't have to fear retribution. I see a few here and there, and from reading reports of them it seems to me that the folks that act the most like assholes tend to report the most asshole sightings. It could be they're projecting. It could be that folks tend to act like assholes towards assholes. It could be that the nice people are too nice to talk down about others, even the "swine."

It could even be that I'm corrolating the data wrong, but when I look around I see very few people of the truly nice people on RPG boards venting about their encounters with jackasses.

There's really no potential for decent debate on this subject, because Swine is basically a meaningless term.

The real definition of Swine is basically "People Pundit doesn't like, or suspects of wrongthink".  Moriarty's example of John Lennon's killer puts the truth behind that.

Any other more useful definition of Swine such as is often drawn up in the term's defense, can't be used, because it would plant Pundit squarely in his own sights, and as such can't be defended.  

If a Swine is someone who looks down on people for how they play, then the Pundit is a Swine.  If a Swine is someone pretentious, then Pundit is a swine for holding up the myth of the "D20 System" and his salesmanship of True20, and for giving Amber it's own fucking forum.

All this Pistols thread is going to be is a lot of sophistry and meaningless rhetoric designed to dance around the fact that there is no real definition of the term that doesn't automatically include himself, or that doesn't actually have a definition at all.

It's a waste of fucking time.

Of course it's a waste of time. It's a debate on the internet!

That doesn't mean a good time can't be had watching the train wreck happen.

Quote from: James McMurrayOh, there are definitely Swine. There's just no Swine Menace, no movement (organized or otherwise) with the capability to negatively impact the hobby as a whole.

Whether or not they can influence the hobby is not a prerequisite, from what I can tell.  The fact that they'd like to is more to the point...

And don't kid yourself - while it might not be a conspiracy in the sense that you think Pundit thinks it is, there's definitely a groupthink in certain quarters that thinks d20/D&D/roll-players are playing wrong, or aren't really even playing roleplaying games - they're playing "chess with dice" I think the term is.

Now they don't want to be seen as elitsist assholes, so they do a lot of public-speak about how nobody is playing wrong, there's no badwrongfun, etc.  But then, every once in a while, the mask slips. And then when you call them on it, they tell you you're just being oversensitive and shit like that.

And don't ask for links - you* know damn well you've seen it, and I don't want to spend my Sunday night looking at that shit yet again. Just witness brain damage and the shitstorm that caused because some people realized it was just a bit too much to hand-wave away.

Quote from: James McMurrayRoleplayers being elitist assholes are all over the place, especially on the internet where the cowardly ones don't have to fear retribution. I see a few here and there, and from reading reports of them it seems to me that the folks that act the most like assholes tend to report the most asshole sightings. It could be they're projecting. It could be that folks tend to act like assholes towards assholes. It could be that the nice people are too nice to talk down about others, even the "swine."

Yeah, this is the old "everyone cheats" meme.  Fact is, I never got the sense that people who played "traditional" games ever had a hard-pn about the "indy/narr/forgeries" until the former were essentially told they were playing wrong/incoherent/brain damaged.

The "war" is the response to that.  It's "traditional" gamers saying "Hey, fuck you! We've been doing this for 30 years.  We think we have a pretty good handle on it even if we don't use terms like 'simulationist' or 'incoherence.'"

I think most people are right when they say there isn't a war - cause the "war," such as it was, is over. The response has been provided and with a successful enough voice that the holier-than-thou virtue of the forgeries has been squelched. It's why I, for one, have cooled to the whole thing and have been much more into other discussions (like Spike Fu design and shit, or Melingor's ideas - even if I dont' think they are for me).

My boss/mentor, a long time ago, taught me - all to often, preception is reality.  And to a lot of "traditional" gamers, the perception was that this was an all out assault on their type of gaming- that they were being dissed in a major, public way.  That may not have been the intent or the substance.  But perception is often reality.

Quote from: J ArcaneIf a Swine is someone pretentious, then Pundit is a swine for holding up the myth of the "D20 System"

Just out of curiousity, and maybe for another thread, what is the "myth of d20" No malice intended, really just curious what your though is...

* Not you, specifically, James, m'boy - the royal "you"

QuoteJust out of curiousity, and maybe for another thread, what is the "myth of d20" No malice intended, really just curious what your though is...

That there's such a thing as a generic "D20 System".  The D20 push is by and large just a lot of people's crazy D&D houserules, but they're held up as something greater than that, and I think that's a load of pretentious bollocks.  

Pundit in particular further conflates D&D with this imaginary "D20 System" by insisting on treating D&D's success as synonymous with the D20 spinoff community, which is thusly somehow wildly successful simply by association, despite there being nothing to support that conclusion.  

The result is a ridiculous hypocrisy.  In one breath he (and many others for that matter) treat D&D and D20 as the same, so they can declare great success for the D20 products like True 20, yet in the other breath claims they're somehow different because it's not cool to admit that all anyone's really been doing is selling D&D houserules.  

It boils down to the fact that once upon a time, people adapted AD&D to cover everything from westerns to PA to sci-fi and Star Wars, but back then nobody pretended that these adaptations were anything but what they were:  houseruled D&D.  Now with the OGL they can actually try and sell those old sets of houserules, but to do so, they put on an air of legitimacy by pretending that D&D is some generic system like GURPS or Tri-Stat, call it a "D20 System", and get really pissy when you point out that they aren't doing anything that people had been doing since D&D was the only game in town.  

Really, it mirrors the behavior and tactics of the Forge to a tee.  And Pundit himself has flat out admitted he doesn't even like D&D3, and goes on about the wonders of True20, yet he's more than happy to piggyback off D&D's success because it lets him pretend that his pet obscure set of houserules is some great success.

Skach completely gets me, anyhow.

OK, back to your popcorn.

Quote from: James J SkachWhether or not they can influence the hobby is not a prerequisite, from what I can tell.  The fact that they'd like to is more to the point...

Who cares? I'd like to bang porn stars, but that doesn't change reality. I'd like to cross my arms and blink my eyes twice to have the dishes do themselves, but that doesn't change reality. Getting overwrought about what a bunch of other dorks think about your group of dorks is, at best, hilariously entertaining to the rest of the dorks.

QuoteAnd don't kid yourself - while it might not be a conspiracy in the sense that you think Pundit thinks it is, there's definitely a groupthink in certain quarters that thinks d20/D&D/roll-players are playing wrong, or aren't really even playing roleplaying games - they're playing "chess with dice" I think the term is.

Again, so what? There's group think that story games aren't real games and that white wolf products are used only by goths. It doesn't change reality.

QuoteNow they don't want to be seen as elitsist assholes, so they do a lot of public-speak about how nobody is playing wrong, there's no badwrongfun, etc.  But then, every once in a while, the mask slips. And then when you call them on it, they tell you you're just being oversensitive and shit like that.

Assholes act like assholes? That's not exactly a new phenomenon.

QuoteAnd don't ask for links - you* know damn well you've seen it, and I don't want to spend my Sunday night looking at that shit yet again. Just witness brain damage and the shitstorm that caused because some people realized it was just a bit too much to hand-wave away.

If people had trestred the brain damage comment like the crackpot rant it was instead of holding onto it for years as a symbolic representation of The War it would have faded away like it should have.

QuoteYeah, this is the old "everyone cheats" meme.  Fact is, I never got the sense that people who played "traditional" games ever had a hard-pn about the "indy/narr/forgeries" until the former were essentially told they were playing wrong/incoherent/brain damaged.

You mean you're surprised that they didn't care about the indy/narr/forgie games until they found out about the indy/narr/forgie games? Of course not, they were too busy fighting setting wars over Dragonlance vs. forgotten Realms. They were too busy poking fun at those giant Losers over at the board game booths. They were too busy trying to decide whether Driz'zt was God's gift to fantasy literature or a Pox upon Humanity.

And most of them still are, and never stopped. Outside of the, what, 20? people railing against Indy games, nobody gives a shit.

Thanks J - as I said, curious.

And now curious enough to perhaps start a different thread.  Not because I agree or disagree, but because I'd be interested to flesh out your perspective and get some other input.

So, again, thanks...

QuoteIf people had trestred the brain damage comment like the crackpot rant it was instead of holding onto it for years as a symbolic representation of The War it would have faded away like it should have.

And that jsut about really pins down the collossal flaw in that approach.  All this "War" shit does is ultimately lend more relevance to the Forge than it ever deserved.  It feeds it more than it harms it, by letting them form the basis for the debate.  

It shouldnt' even be a debate.  It's an obscure bunch of wankers with an internet forum.  There's more obscure groups that fir that description than there are atoms in the Sun.  but rather than ignoring them like the crackpots they are, Pundit and others fuel their egos by treating them as a legitimate threat, and give them more pubicity than they ever deserved.  

As I said before, the proper response to Hybrid Guy is to ignore him until he goes away.  the same goes for the Forge.

Quote from: James J SkachThanks J - as I said, curious.

And now curious enough to perhaps start a different thread.  Not because I agree or disagree, but because I'd be interested to flesh out your perspective and get some other input.

So, again, thanks...

There's no need really, that post sums up the whole of my thoughts on the matter, and this thread already explored the idea to it's ultimate conclusion.

Quote from: James McMurrayOh, there are definitely Swine. There's just no Swine Menace, no movement (organized or otherwise) with the capability to negatively impact the hobby as a whole.

I agree, there are assholes in every hobby.   I think Pundit's Paranoia is really Unnecessary.

Quote from: James McMurrayRoleplayers being elitist assholes are all over the place, especially on the internet where the cowardly ones don't have to fear retribution.

Yes, that is true.  Sadly I think that Pundit falls into the Elitist Asshole category even though he claims he isn't (Not that he is the only one mind you), so really by the definition of Swine Pundit is exactly what he hates (I believe J. Arcane said the same thing in another thread- Sorry Arcane if you werent the person, I am going from memory here).

Quote from: James J SkachWhether or not they can influence the hobby is not a prerequisite, from what I can tell.  The fact that they'd like to is more to the point...

I don't know of any group that is trying to influence the hobby.  I just know of gamers doing their own thing (The Forge doing their thing, the people over at Storygames doing their thing).

Quote from: James J SkachAnd don't kid yourself - while it might not be a conspiracy in the sense that you think Pundit thinks it is, there's definitely a groupthink in certain quarters that thinks d20/D&D/roll-players are playing wrong, or aren't really even playing roleplaying games - they're playing "chess with dice" I think the term is.

There are people who think things they don't like/games they don't like are wrong.  This is true for more the just rpgs.

The only conspiracy is going on in Pundit's head.  Just like the war is only in his head.

Quote from: James J SkachNow they don't want to be seen as elitsist assholes, so they do a lot of public-speak about how nobody is playing wrong, there's no badwrongfun, etc.  But then, every once in a while, the mask slips. And then when you call them on it, they tell you you're just being oversensitive and shit like that.

There are elitist assholes in rpgs, chess, board games, wargaming, etc.  It's not as if this is only happening in our hobby.  

Quote from: James J SkachThe "war" is the response to that.  It's "traditional" gamers saying "Hey, fuck you! We've been doing this for 30 years.  We think we have a pretty good handle on it even if we don't use terms like 'simulationist' or 'incoherence.'"

There is no war. It does not exist

Quote from: James J SkachI think most people are right when they say there isn't a war - cause the "war," such as it was, is over. The response has been provided and with a successful enough voice that the holier-than-thou virtue of the forgeries has been squelched.

Squelched?  Not quite.  The Forge people are still putting out their games, the games are being talked about on various forums (including the biggest of them all rpg.net).   The Forge isn't in full retreat.  Pundit just likes to lie and tell people that.  He likes to take credit for things he has nothing to do with.

The moderation at rpg.net being looked into for being too heavy.  because of Him?  Nope, enough users complaining.  

Quote from: James J SkachMy boss/mentor, a long time ago, taught me - all to often, preception is reality.  And to a lot of "traditional" gamers, the perception was that this was an all out assault on their type of gaming- that they were being dissed in a major, public way.  That may not have been the intent or the substance.  But perception is often reality.

The only people who are feeling this way are Pundit, Sett and a few others.  The majority of gamers (you know, the ones that are too busy to play to go online) don't go to game related websites and don't feel like their games are being assaulted.  They are too busy playing.  

What's being said here, what's being said on my website/forum- doesn't matter, we are barely blips on the majority of gamers radars.

There is no assault on tradional gamers, there are simply gamers playing what they enjoy.

Quote from: J ArcaneAll this "War" shit does is ultimately lend more relevance to the Forge than it ever deserved.  It feeds it more than it harms it, by letting them form the basis for the debate.

Wasn't there a person on that thread about "Pundit's War" who said they had never heard of The Forge until they saw that thread?

If so it really proves your point.  All it's doing is bringing attention to The Forge and advertising their site.  

Quote from: J ArcaneIt shouldnt' even be a debate.  It's an obscure bunch of wankers with an internet forum.  There's more obscure groups that fir that description than there are atoms in the Sun.  but rather than ignoring them like the crackpots they are, Pundit and others fuel their egos by treating them as a legitimate threat, and give them more pubicity than they ever deserved.

Right.  The Forge isn't influencing or changing gaming any more the TheRPGSite, TheRPGLounge, Rpg.net or anyone else.

The majority of gamers don't go online to discuss games and don't pay attention to rpg forums.