Quote from: TonyLBWell, I can't imagine the hobby existing without spawning an industry of some sort.  I mean ... people are going to make their systemss, and eventually somebody's going to say "Hey, I could charge money for this ... people would pay it!" and then you're back in the business of selling RPGs, in at least a small way.

I get what you're saying. I guess I was thinking of the "hobby" as a group of gamers releasing stuff through the net for free (with no industry in sight). *shrug* I don't forsee this ever happening, I suppose there always will be an "industry" of some sort.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: TonyLBI've seen two standards for "Who is a gamer?"

Okay, but that's not the key element. The key element is sustainability, particularly when you're talking business and marketing.

Quote from: TonyLBI honestly find that pushing the second standard as the "important thing" is one of the fastest ways to turn prospective people off of RPGs.

But folks who will seek out and purchase RPGs because of internal factors rather than external ones

Quote from: TonyLBThey're not so happy to orient their lives (even in part) around RPGs.

That's hyperbole.

Let's talk in concretes. There are two non-gamers who I introduced to gaming about four or five years ago in the same campaign. Lina was a big fantasy/sci-fi fan and enjoyed computer games. Michel was into reading the classics - you know, those books that are on sale at Borders for $3 - and enjoyed being competitive.

Lina took to RPGs like a duck to water. She was all about the story - re-creating the types of things she'd read and watched. Once the campaign ended and I barely saw her, she sought out a new group, bought her own games, went to conventions and married a gamer.

Michel enjoyed the more competitive and game-like aspects of the campaign. She barely acknowledged the story elements of the game and just wanted to get to the next fight. She was very meticulous about her character, etc. - she created her own spellbook and selected and painted a mini - but once the campaign ended and we went our separate ways, she had no interest in gaming anymore.

If you introduce Linas to gaming (through marketing, play experience, or whatever), they'll expand the hobby and industry. If you introduce Michels to gaming, they'll game when the opportunity exists but won't really help grow anything.

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiIf you introduce Linas to gaming (through marketing, play experience, or whatever), they'll expand the hobby and industry. If you introduce Michels to gaming, they'll game when the opportunity exists but won't really help grow anything.

Yeah, I think you're probably right.  But you're talking as if introducing Michel was a pointless exercise, and I just don't think it was at all.  You've created another person who will play RPGs when they are offered as an activity.

Monopoly is an insanely successful game by almost anyone's standards, but the number of people who self-identify as "Monopoly Gamers" and who push the limits of what Monopoly can be ... I'm guessing (though I don't have numbers) that they're a tiny minority of those who play.  Would anyone benefit if new versions of Monopoly were only pitched to that minority?

I understand the temptation of pitching and selling RPGs as something that is only for people who are going to get involved with the Hobby as a whole, and seek out new and different RPGs and, basically, make being a gamer into part of their identity.  I just think it's a self-fulfilling prophecy:  If you're only producing products that will be loved by the most committed, the most engaged ... well then, you're forcing RPGs more and more into the cul-de-sac of being a niche industry of and for the extreme loyalists.

Just for the record, the idea in my original post was that for an RPG to find great success it needs to have something to offer to both groups of people.

Quote from: CalithenaJust for the record, the idea in my original post was that for an RPG to find great success it needs to have something to offer to both groups of people.

LOL!  You're completely right.  I lost track of that, but we seem to have circled right back to your original point.  Now I feel a little silly :deflated:

Quote from: TonyLBYeah, I think you're probably right.  But you're talking as if introducing Michel was a pointless exercise, and I just don't think it was at all.  You've created another person who will play RPGs when they are offered as an activity.

Sure. It's not a bad thing. But if I had to choose between Linas or Michels, I'd take the Linas.

Quote from: TonyLBI just think it's a self-fulfilling prophecy:  If you're only producing products that will be loved by the most committed, the most engaged ... well then, you're forcing RPGs more and more into the cul-de-sac of being a niche industry of and for the extreme loyalists.

I agree with you in terms of the type of product. It sounds like I disagree who to aim it at.

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiSure. It's not a bad thing. But if I had to choose between Linas or Michels, I'd take the Linas.

"Choose" in what sense? Because I'd be happy to have either of them in my group - in fact, I'd be happiest with both, because a variety of playstyles makes the game most fun, whatever Uncle Ronny &co think.

For the hobby as whole, it's just a matter of getting the numbers through. Some people will be Linas, some will be Michels, and some will be Janes - try none or one session, and not be interested in doing it again at all. As I said, I've made probably a new gamer each year of my gaming life - new Linas (in terms of continuing interest). But for each new Lina there were two or three new Michels, and dozens of Janes.

You just work the numbers through. That's what any "industry" does, it's why they have advertising, free sample products and so on, to make the most people possible aware of their product. But the most effective marketing tool is a current satisfied customer. Gamers make new gamers.

Unfortunately, many gamers and their groups are quite insular.

Quote from: JimBobOz"Choose" in what sense?

Main Entry: choose  
Pronunciation: \ˈchüz\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): chose  \ˈchōz\; cho·sen  \ˈchō-zən\; choos·ing  \ˈchü-ziŋ\
Etymology: Middle English chosen, from Old English cēosan; akin to Old High German kiosan to choose, Latin gustare to taste
Date: before 12th century
transitive verb
1 a: to select freely and after consideration b: to decide on especially by vote : elect
2 a: to have a preference for b: decide
intransitive verb
1: to make a selection
2: to take an alternative — used after cannot and usually followed by but
— choos·er  \ˈchü-zər\ noun

Quote from: JimBobOzYou just work the numbers through. That's what any "industry" does, it's why they have advertising, free sample products and so on, to make the most people possible aware of their product.

Except that's not true. Advertisers and marketers don't throw out ads, promotions, etc. out there and hope someone bites. They spend a great deal of time and effort selecting potential audiences so that they won't be wasting their time and money.

Quote from: JimBobOzBut the most effective marketing tool is a current satisfied customer. Gamers make new gamers.

Out of people who are pre-disposed to be gamers.

Seanchai