For example:
I won't buy any C&C stuff because they are always changing the trade dress and it would lead my core set to look funny. The sole reason I didn't buy the Castle Keepers Guide was that it didn't match the books I already had.
You?
I would really prefer not to ever buy any Paizo stuff again because they employ Sean Reynolds. His opinions about AD&D are shit.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;585338I would really prefer not to ever buy any Paizo stuff again because they employ Sean Reynolds. His opinions about AD&D are shit.
What are his opinions? I haven't paid much attention to him on that front.
I'd like to hear about Sean Reynolds as well. The only thing I've read from him on the Paizo forums that I don't care for is the stonewalling on Monks being deliberately bad, but the same could be said of JB and James Jacobs as well, so this seems to be the company line and not an SKR exclusive.
I don't think I have any pet peeves of this variety, or at least I can't think of anything off the top of my head.
Do people really make buying decisions based on personalities? I couldn't care less who produces a product as long as the product is good. Same with music. Then you get to the complex conundrum of changing personalities, will you burn all the books created by a certain writer if he joins the KKK and gets a Hitler tache tattoo after a lifetime of social service?
My favourite example here is Charles Dickens, by day proponent of improving the conditions for the impoverished of London, by night a genocidal lunatic that wanted to personally murder all the "Hindoos".
Frankly I don't care, as long as I don't feel they are pushing an agenda through their work, that irritates me. Admittedly I would have a problem with the radical ink klansman above, but that's an edge case.
Petty? Okay here's petty.
I have not purchased (yet) "Dogs of W*A*R", the Barbarians of Lemuria modern day spin-of because of its terrible cover.
I have not purchased Fate variant "Awesome Adventures" because of it's title.
I have not purchased "Cartoon Action Hour" because even if my games all play like Saturday morning cartoons I don't necessarily want to advertise that fact.
The thing is when I buy a new game I am looking to "buy" the players' goodwill and generate a bit of buzz. I could persuade my players to try any of the above systems and given time win them over. What I would not get is that initial player buy-in and full-hearted commitment to their characters that I might get with a system that inspired more confidence (through reputation, personal experience or just production values).
And the catch is that player buy-in and commitment are at least as important than the rules themselves to the success of a game, if not more. So you get a viscous circle. The players start off skittish, the player's attitude, however subtle, has impact on the quality of the game so that at the end of the session the player's initial misgivings about the game are confirmed.
So yes, it's petty, but it's also pragmatic.
You may now mock me.
Quote from: Wolf, Richard;585463I'd like to hear about Sean Reynolds as well. The only thing I've read from him on the Paizo forums that I don't care for is the stonewalling on Monks being deliberately bad, but the same could be said of JB and James Jacobs as well, so this seems to be the company line and not an SKR exclusive.
I don't think I have any pet peeves of this variety, or at least I can't think of anything off the top of my head.
I am not very fond of Sean K. Reynold's errata regarding the Monk, in that most of the time it ends up nerfing an already underpowered class.
Quote from: Soylent Green;585489I have not purchased "Cartoon Action Hour" because even if my games all play like Saturday morning cartoons I don't necessarily want to advertise that fact.
Solution, get a cover and hide the name and just use the game?
I run CAH fairly often, and I'm pretty up front that don't let its name fool you--it can do a lot of things, its just got some tools to make the Cartoon like aspects easy.
Quote from: Silverlion;585519Solution, get a cover and hide the name and just use the game?
I run CAH fairly often, and I'm pretty up front that don't let its name fool you--it can do a lot of things, its just got some tools to make the Cartoon like aspects easy.
Hehe, sneaky, sneaky.
However it doesn't really work that way. Hypothetically speaking, disguising the game might avoid negative vibes, but it does not create positive vibes either. And it's positive vibes that I want from a new game.
If players are excited about the new game chances are they will put more energy into the game and that in turn helps everyone get passed that initial learning curve. If they are a little skittish or even just neutral about the game to start with things can still work out fine, it's just harder.
Quote from: Soylent Green;585489I have not purchased (yet) "Dogs of W*A*R", the Barbarians of Lemuria modern day spin-of because of its terrible cover.
I have not purchased Fate variant "Awesome Adventures" because of it's title.
Ah, well if that is petty then include me there. I won't buy a product with bad art or a stupid name even if I'm okay with it otherwise (at least not at full/high prices).
I'm perfectly capable of using some amateur's well done game published for free online that has no art at all. If I'm paying a lot of money then I expect the art, art direction, and layout to be good.
Quote from: LibertadSean should just be honest that he doesn't like Monks and makes them weak in order to discourage people from playing them.
Since they have already included the class in the game that they publish I don't think an admission of guilt really helps. Perhaps if they included a disclaimer in the class write-up, but that seems pretty damned unlikely and really isn't an ideal solution anyway.
I don't really like Monks either. I think it's a bad idea for a 'core' class because it doesn't easily fit into most campaign settings, even ones with an ersatz east Asia. I legitimately nerdraged over it's inclusion in the 3e PHB. I think they probably should have been left to a distinctly non-occidental supplement.
That said I think some of the Paizo staff's critiques of the class from a design standpoint are very obtuse and so is their refusal to give ground on the subject. I sort of expect everything in the core rules to be functional and not wonky, even if I don't care for the aesthetics.
There are a lot of spells on the core lists that I think are particularly cheesy that I'd rather see not present rather than have them be not viable options if they are present (unfortunately the cheesier a spell is from an aesthetic standpoint the more powerful it is!)
Quote from: Soylent Green;585489Petty? Okay here's petty.
I have not purchased (yet) "Dogs of W*A*R", the Barbarians of Lemuria modern day spin-of because of its terrible cover.
Seriously you should get "Dogs of W*A*R". Its made of awesome. If it was anymore awesome it would make you a taco, and hand you a beer.
I won't buy ICONS even though I'm curious about it because GMS is a douchebag, and the art is fucking atrocious.
Quote from: Ronin;585557Seriously you should get "Dogs of W*A*R". Its made of awesome. If it was anymore awesome it would make you a taco, and hand you a beer.
I know, I know. BoL is superb, and I don't even like fantasy. I am sure I will eventually will get it. Just hoping one day it might get that deluxe edition, you know?
I know I should not judge a book by its cover...but I do.
Quote from: J Arcane;585565I won't buy ICONS even though I'm curious about it because GMS is a douchebag, and the art is fucking atrocious.
For what it's worth, ICONS is now owned entirely by Steve Kenson (his company bought the rights off Adamant). It is a great game.
Quote from: Soylent Green;585572For what it's worth, ICONS is now owned entirely by Steve Kenson (his company bought the rights off Adamant). It is a great game.
Then it's high time they hired some artists and layout people who don't suck and put out a new version. One with less crappy DeviantArt and Cactus Man.
Quote from: Soylent Green;585539Hehe, sneaky, sneaky.
See I did this with Smallville, and I'd rather generate interest in my campaign, and the games tools than the games name..:D Sure eventually they'll know, but typically its not an issue for me.
Quote from: J Arcane;585574Then it's high time they hired some artists and layout people who don't suck and put out a new version. One with less crappy DeviantArt and Cactus Man.
There are some games so great, you should forgive them their crappy art.
Also, I will not reject any game based only on who wrote it. If tomorrow Ron Edwards were to come out with the greatest straightforward Regular Traditional OSR Sword and Sorcery D&D-based RPG I'd ever seen, I would certainly buy it and say it was good.
RPGPundit
Around my high school years I realized that the creators of a few of my favorite books/movies/games were jerks in real life and/or had some pretty crazy views.
After much thought, I came to this conclusion: I enjoyed the series despite this because their dickishness didn't bleed over into their work. If I only bought books/movies/games from people who weren't jerks, acted like jerks at some point in the past, or didn't have weird/crazy beliefs, I'd be avoiding a lot of good stuff.
Of course, I'd stopping purchasing their work if it became increasingly filled with their personal hang-ups and author tracts to the point that it overrides other themes.
I make purchase decisions based on personalities all the time. I try to avoid Rihanna because her tolerance of Chris Brown drawing breath is offensive to me. Scientology has a similar effect on me, and I never went to see Rock of Ages because of Tom Cruise.
On the plus side for RPGs, they have fewer celebrities and I have less exposure to the few that exist.
I was, though, turned off by Nikolai Vrtis's rejection of my offer to contribute to D6 that I switched systems for a while.
That's the best I've got.
I think there's only one publisher I categorically will not buy from, and that's based on personal interaction with the owner, as well as my dissatisfaction with products of theirs that I have bought. I'm not even going to give them the Google hit by mentioning them here. What's problematic is when people on my "Must buy!" and "Never buy!" list work together...
Quote from: J Arcane;585565I won't buy ICONS even though I'm curious about it because GMS is a douchebag, and the art is fucking atrocious.
Same here, except that I pirated the game just to see how Kenson's approach to an update of FASERIP compared to my own. When confident mine was superior and there was nothing to be had from the game, I deleted it. Because, my god, that's some damn crappy art.
And yeah, GMs is a tool. He also stole artwork before, so he gets none of my patronage.
If he puts out another edition with some decent artwork, I may buy it just because.
Oh, also Rebecca Borgstrom, or whatever their calling themselves these days: I won't touch any of their games just based on the obnoxiousness of the fanbase. Ditto Exalted, but I have no interest in that game anyways.
Ironically, I caved finally and bought Exalted purely because of a woman. Love makes you do strange things.
Quote from: Soylent Green;585489Petty? Okay here's petty.
I have not purchased (yet) "Dogs of W*A*R", the Barbarians of Lemuria modern day spin-of because of its terrible cover.
.
I Googled the cover (I wasn't familiar with the game) and found that it looks like the cover art to a
really cheap VHS tape of a 1980's low-budget action film. Like a late 80's Menahem Golan's 21st Century Films' release of a dubbed and re-cut Hong Kong/Indonesia co-production staring Chris Mitchum.
If the game was phamplet-sized and actually came packaged in a VHS clamshell with a bright orange "Please Be Kind-Rewind" sticker on the box, it would be an
essential purchase.
I've never played any Palladium games, but everything I've ever heard about Kevin Siembieda tells me the guy is a total twat and I wouldn't want to buy anything he's written.
After he came out with the d20 abortion book and tried to defend the tripe as "an attempt to stimulate discussion" on RPGnet, I decided that Louis Porter Jr. doesn't deserve any of my money or interest - ever.
Wushu earned my everlasting irritation several years ago, not because of the system itself, but because of a hyper-aggressive species of fanboy promoting it for everything from World War II campaigns to removing kitchen mildew, regardless of actual suitability for the task at hand.
Quote from: Zachary The First;586415Wushu earned my everlasting irritation several years ago, not because of the system itself, but because of a hyper-aggressive species of fanboy promoting it for everything from World War II campaigns to removing kitchen mildew, regardless of actual suitability for the task at hand.
And now he posts here ...
Quote from: Kiero;586299I've never played any Palladium games, but everything I've ever heard about Kevin Siembieda tells me the guy is a total twat and I wouldn't want to buy anything he's written.
Wouldn't his sticking to his guns and keeping control over his creation qualify him as the ultimate Indie developer?
Personally I have no difficulty with his attitude, although I wouldn't play his games because they don't strike me as being very good, I'm quite puzzled by all the people who go on mighty tirades against the man for the terrible crime of not doing what they wanted.
Quote from: jeff37923;586401After he came out with the d20 abortion book and tried to defend the tripe as "an attempt to stimulate discussion" on RPGnet, I decided that Louis Porter Jr. doesn't deserve any of my money or interest - ever.
Not to mention he's an infamous plagiarist.
I won't touch a thing with that jackhole's name on it. Anyone who makes GMS look like the good guy in an online spat clearly isn't worth a damn.
Petty things? Maps done in Campaign Cartographer, especially wilderness maps, are generally freaking ugly, and will make me reconsider a purchase. As far as I am concerned, if you get the maps wrong, you will probably also get the rest wrong. Moreover, anything with Poser art in it tells me the designer/publisher (usually the same person) has no taste.
I will buy games from utter and complete douchebags, though. I also enjoy books, music and movies created by utter and complete douchebags, so why stop with games?
Quote from: Kiero;586299I've never played any Palladium games, but everything I've ever heard about Kevin Siembieda tells me the guy is a total twat and I wouldn't want to buy anything he's written.
I've never played any Palladium game simply because every one I've ever looked at looks like it was typed on a 50 year old typewriter by someone who'd never so much as cracked open a book on layout, typography or design.
But I don't consider that petty.
Likewise , I won't buy any game with poser art, and I also don't consider that petty. Presentation is an important part of RPG design. The game has to inspire me, and art is a big part of that.
Huh... I just have three criteria for whether I buy a game:
A. Does the setting and /or system intrigue me to the point where I want to run it?
B. Does it do something very well to the point where I can learn from it?
C. Does it explore something I want to write a game about to the point where I can learn something from it?
The game has to meet one of those three criteria. Nothing else ever enters the equation.
-clash
Quote from: The Traveller;586443Wouldn't his sticking to his guns and keeping control over his creation qualify him as the ultimate Indie developer?
Personally I have no difficulty with his attitude, although I wouldn't play his games because they don't strike me as being very good, I'm quite puzzled by all the people who go on mighty tirades against the man for the terrible crime of not doing what they wanted.
For me, and my tirades, I see the possibility compared to the reality and hope for change. When that hope gets met with a 'go fuck yourself, you are not a customer anyway', then I get sad.
But that's just me.
Quote from: mcbobbo;586500For me, and my tirades, I see the possibility compared to the reality and hope for change. When that hope gets met with a 'go fuck yourself, you are not a customer anyway', then I get sad.
But that's just me.
But sure what, I have a copy of Fading Suns on my hard drive here with the engine and mechanics completely gutted and replaced by my own system. It may never see the light of day for copyright reasons but it works for me.
If I had instead spent that week and a half complaining loudly about it on the internet I'd never have gotten to enjoy the richness and depth of the milieu on my own terms.
If you want something done right after all...
Quote from: The Traveller;586518If you want something done right after all...
Yes, of course, but some of us are better at complaining than doing the actual work.
;)
Quote from: Zachary The First;586415Wushu earned my everlasting irritation several years ago, not because of the system itself, but because of a hyper-aggressive species of fanboy promoting it for everything from World War II campaigns to removing kitchen mildew, regardless of actual suitability for the task at hand.
Just wanted to say "welcome back" Zach.
We now return you to the regularly scheduled thread comments.
Quote from: SowelBlack;586569Just wanted to say "welcome back" Zach.
We now return you to the regularly scheduled thread comments.
Thanks--good to have a little bit of time to actually post again.
Yeah! Happy to see your smiling heraldry, Zach! :D
-clash
Quote from: Melan;586471Petty things? Maps done in Campaign Cartographer, especially wilderness maps, are generally freaking ugly... As far as I am concerned, if you get the maps wrong, you will probably also get the rest wrong.
Yeah that's sound - not petty at all in my view.
I didn't purchase a physical copy of Stars Without Number because of the craptastic cover used on the Mongoose-published version, which was the only one available. (I like the original starfield/nebula cover.)
Going to DriveThruRPG, I see that Sine Nomine has made the starfield cover available for physical books, again. That's good news!
Quote from: The Traveller;586443Wouldn't his sticking to his guns and keeping control over his creation qualify him as the ultimate Indie developer?
Even if that were the case, what's your point?
Quote from: Kiero;586299I've never played any Palladium games, but everything I've ever heard about Kevin Siembieda tells me the guy is a total twat and I wouldn't want to buy anything he's written.
Well, you don't know what you're missing, then.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Zachary The First;586415Wushu earned my everlasting irritation several years ago, not because of the system itself, but because of a hyper-aggressive species of fanboy promoting it for everything from World War II campaigns to removing kitchen mildew, regardless of actual suitability for the task at hand.
Oh yes.
Also on the same list: Savage Worlds and everything ORE related.
Quote from: Melan;586471Petty things? Maps done in Campaign Cartographer, especially wilderness maps, are generally freaking ugly, and will make me reconsider a purchase. As far as I am concerned, if you get the maps wrong, you will probably also get the rest wrong.
I just want to say, "me too!"
I abhor computer-generated maps
in general. They feel computer-gamey to me.
Quote from: Kiero;586658Even if that were the case, what's your point?
Oh nothing really, just marvelling that the thick rimmed glasses brigade aren't fellating one another over what should by rights be the ultimate Indie darling's principled stand against "The Man" instead of lambasting him as a miserable dinosaur who should hurry up and die so they can do his work
right.
Gosh you mean importing terms from the music industry to try and sound hip is not just silly but as completely logically incoherent as any religion, especially in a hobby which is by any reasonable standard itself a cottage industry. Quick now, to the doubleplusgoodmobile to wring out some new linguistic contortion that excludes Kevin and his like from being one of us!
Other him post haste, before he gets some independent thought on us and it becomes too blindingly obvious that
we are the creatively oppressive Man!
Independent thought is always to be supported, hearing someone is a twat and never questioning that or considering the reasons behind it is the mark of someone who is more than happy to hang a man in his absence. I don't have you particularly pegged as such a person, but its an easy trap to fall into.
As I said, I wont buy or play his games, not even really interested in reading about them, because they use a D&D-alike system which in my opinion is not a very good system, although he has a couple of good settings with stunning artwork from his early years, but I can't really fault his personality from what I've read of it.
If I had found his settings sufficiently compelling I'd have spent a tenth of the time that people waste crying on the internet and just put in my own system at home instead, for my own personal enjoyment. Its baffling why people would do otherwise, I mean no gaming company is ever going to release a game that is 100% suited to my tastes no matter how much whining goes on anyway.
And that, in short, is my point.
Quote from: The Traveller;586687Oh nothing really, just marvelling that the thick rimmed glasses brigade aren't fellating one another over what should by rights be the ultimate Indie darling's principled stand against "The Man" instead of lambasting him as a miserable dinosaur who should hurry up and die so they can do his work right.
Gosh you mean importing terms from the music industry to try and sound hip is not just silly but as completely logically incoherent as any religion, especially in a hobby which is by any reasonable standard itself a cottage industry. Quick now, to the doubleplusgoodmobile to wring out some new linguistic contortion that excludes Kevin and his like from being one of us! Other him post haste, before he gets some independent thought on us and it becomes too blindingly obvious that we are the creatively oppressive Man!
I hate to interrupt you in mid-flow, but what the fuck are you on about?
Quote from: The Traveller;586687Independent thought is always to be supported, hearing someone is a twat and never questioning that or considering the reasons behind it is the mark of someone who is more than happy to hang a man in his absence. I don't have you particularly pegged as such a person, but its an easy trap to fall into.
As I said, I wont buy or play his games, not even really interested in reading about them, because they use a D&D-alike system which in my opinion is not a very good system, although he has a couple of good settings with stunning artwork from his early years, but I can't really fault his personality from what I've read of it.
If I had found his settings sufficiently compelling I'd have spent a tenth of the time that people waste crying on the internet and just put in my own system at home instead, for my own personal enjoyment. Its baffling why people would do otherwise, I mean no gaming company is ever going to release a game that is 100% suited to my tastes no matter how much whining goes on anyway.
I thought AD&D was shit, I don't need to play Kevin's abominably houseruled AD&D to know the end result will be shit. Especially when people who's opinion I trust about systems say its a cobbled-together mess. Even moreso when my own standards of systems say anything that old is bound to be shit.
That Siembieda is a tool (evidenced by repeated quoting of his statements, and the way he likes to set lawyers on everyone) is merely icing on the fact that Palladium has nothing to offer me.
Quote from: The Traveller;586687And that, in short, is my point.
There was nothing short about that little tirade.
Quote from: vytzka;586684Oh yes.
Also on the same list: Savage Worlds and everything ORE related.
I'm sorry to hear you had some bad experiences with the Savage Worlds fan community, vytzka. I came to SW on my own without being recruited, and I've found them very helpful. I'm not sure what you mean by "hyper-aggressive fanboys promoting it for everything", but I've found its main advantage has been that it's just plain easy to use. Prepping a SW game is fast and simple.
I'm not going to put any more pressure on you; it's obvious someone already did. But I think if you gave SW a try you'd find it useful.
Quote from: Kiero;586691I hate to interrupt you in mid-flow
That's quite alright, for this is an internet vbulletin discussion forum you see, its impossible for you to interrupt me mid flow.
Quote from: Kiero;586691but what the fuck are you on about?
What is this, explain yourself in three words or less? Read the whole thing, top to bottom, and let it sink in.
Quote from: Kiero;586691I thought AD&D was shit, I don't need to play Kevin's abominably houseruled AD&D to know the end result will be shit. Especially when people who's opinion I trust about systems say its a cobbled-together mess. Even moreso when my own standards of systems say anything that old is bound to be shit.
That Siembieda is a tool (evidenced by repeated quoting of his statements, and the way he likes to set lawyers on everyone) is merely icing on the fact that Palladium has nothing to offer me.
AD&D was pretty good at the time, better systems have surpassed it since of course. But that's not what you said, you said he was a twat. That he's willing to go to great lengths to protect his creative autonomy should really make him king of the Indies, don't you think? So tell us, what Nuremburg-rally declamations did this wretch proclaim to so deserve the sobriquet of "twat" in your personal lexicon.
I mean you've already said that you'll judge books not even by their covers but by the year they were released, so I'm ready for anything at this stage.
Quote from: Kiero;586691There was nothing short about that little tirade.
I mentally write in an Al Swearengen tone, making it less of a tirade than a soothing yet raspy monologue, complete with the occasional gesture for emphasis. Al only goes on a tirade when he's about to stab someone.
Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;586694I'm sorry to hear you had some bad experiences with the Savage Worlds fan community, vytzka. I came to SW on my own without being recruited, and I've found them very helpful. I'm not sure what you mean by "hyper-aggressive fanboys promoting it for everything", but I've found its main advantage has been that it's just plain easy to use. Prepping a SW game is fast and simple.
I'm not going to put any more pressure on you; it's obvious someone already did. But I think if you gave SW a try you'd find it useful.
Maybe I made it sound more harsh than I meant, either way Savage Worlds has long left the spot of the most hyped system on rpg.net. It does look like a decent rules-medium system from what I've seen of it.
If we're going back to petty gripes, I just cannot take anything written by Jenna Moran (formerly Rebecca Borgstrom) seriously. I don't even know if her writing style is worse, or the hipster fanboys treating her works as some sort of holy writ, occasionally bordering on rather creepy stalker territory.
Quote from: vytzka;586696Maybe I made it sound more harsh than I meant, either way Savage Worlds has long left the spot of the most hyped system on rpg.net. It does look like a decent rules-medium system from what I've seen of it.
If we're going back to petty gripes, I just cannot take anything written by Jenna Moran (formerly Rebecca Borgstrom) seriously. I don't even know if her writing style is worse, or the hipster fanboys treating her works as some sort of holy writ, occasionally bordering on rather creepy stalker territory.
Her stuff was pretty awful. Irritating, but I never considered it a petty annoyance--just poor writing and overly effusive prose stuffed into an RPG product. It just simply wasn't/isn't very good, in my opinion.
Quote from: The Traveller;586695That's quite alright, for this is an internet vbulletin discussion forum you see, its impossible for you to interrupt me mid flow.
What is this, explain yourself in three words or less? Read the whole thing, top to bottom, and let it sink in.
I don't know what you're expecting me to see, an irrelevant, frothing screed remains just that.
Was I supposed to take offense at something in there?
Quote from: The Traveller;586695AD&D was pretty good at the time, better systems have surpassed it since of course. But that's not what you said, you said he was a twat. That he's willing to go to great lengths to protect his creative autonomy should really make him king of the Indies, don't you think? So tell us, what Nuremburg-rally declamations did this wretch proclaim to so deserve the sobriquet of "twat" in your personal lexicon.
I mean you've already said that you'll judge books not even by their covers but by the year they were released, so I'm ready for anything at this stage.
I played AD&D2e at the time, it was passable. Now it's just shit.
I'm really boggled by this entire line of conversation, I don't give a shit about "creative autonomy" or "independence" or even "Indies". So I'm not sure what you think you're telling me. There's a small number of games I like, and a vaste swathe of games I think are crap. I couldn't give a flying fuck who wrote them (if they're good), why they did it or whatever side of this imaginary indie/not-indie divide they happen to fall upon.
Dude is a twat who writes shit games. If he weren't a complete tool, I might at least feel sorry for him investing so much time and effort into crap games. If he wrote good games, I might hold my nose and ignore the person who wrote it to get at the good games. But neither of those applies here.
Quote from: The Traveller;586695I mentally write in an Al Swearengen tone, making it less of a tirade than a soothing yet raspy monologue, complete with the occasional gesture for emphasis. Al only goes on a tirade when he's about to stab someone.
Keep telling yourself that, bub.
Quote from: Kiero;586718I don't know what you're expecting me to see, an irrelevant, frothing screed remains just that.
Was I supposed to take offense at something in there?
I played AD&D2e at the time, it was passable. Now it's just shit.
I'm really boggled by this entire line of conversation, I don't give a shit about "creative autonomy" or "independence" or even "Indies". So I'm not sure what you think you're telling me. There's a small number of games I like, and a vaste swathe of games I think are crap. I couldn't give a flying fuck who wrote them (if they're good), why they did it or whatever side of this imaginary indie/not-indie divide they happen to fall upon.
Dude is a twat who writes shit games. If he weren't a complete tool, I might at least feel sorry for him investing so much time and effort into crap games. If he wrote good games, I might hold my nose and ignore the person who wrote it to get at the good games. But neither of those applies here.
Keep telling yourself that, bub.
For someone that's not taking offence you seem to be blowing up quite a handbag hurricane there, Elizabeth.
Quote from: vytzka;586696Maybe I made it sound more harsh than I meant, either way Savage Worlds has long left the spot of the most hyped system on rpg.net. It does look like a decent rules-medium system from what I've seen of it. QuoteIt's not. It's one of the stupidest systems I have ever played.
QuoteIf we're going back to petty gripes, I just cannot take anything written by Jenna Moran (formerly Rebecca Borgstrom) seriously. I don't even know if her writing style is worse, or the hipster fanboys treating her works as some sort of holy writ, occasionally bordering on rather creepy stalker territory.
It's precisely the kind of awful, affected, twee excuse for writing that certain types eat up with a spoon because they've been reading fantasy novels for so long that they mistake it for art.
Quote from: The Traveller;586719For someone that's not taking offence you seem to be blowing up quite a handbag hurricane there, Elizabeth.
The least you can do, if you're going to attempt to insult someone, is get something remotely relevant to them.
Quote from: The Traveller;586719For someone that's not taking offence you seem to be blowing up quite a handbag hurricane there, Elizabeth.
Actually, Kiero is not a particularly "Indie" guy, Traveller. Maybe you have him confused with someone else?
-clash
Quote from: The Traveller;586695I mentally write in an Al Swearengen tone, making it less of a tirade than a soothing yet raspy monologue, complete with the occasional gesture for emphasis. Al only goes on a tirade when he's about to stab someone.
This just connects me with my inner Beat Poet, applauding you with the snapping of fingers. Yeah! :D
Quote from: Kiero;586728The least you can do, if you're going to attempt to insult someone, is get something remotely relevant to them.
This, on the other hand, I can only read in the comic book guy's voice.
Quote from: flyingmice;586730Actually, Kiero is not a particularly "Indie" guy, Traveller.
Good thing nobody's calling him one then, he took it upon himself to don the mantle of aggrievement entirely of his own accord. If its wrong to be drive-by critical of Indie hipsters in a microcosm like the RPG hobby, I don't wanna be right. Or another way to put it would be that a man can hold forth upon more than one thought or idea in a single post.
Never mind that "having a bad game system" or "the writer sued my buddy" are hardly petty reasons, more like solid and understandable reasons. Had kiero instead shared that he found bindings of a royal blue colour to be personally offensive, that would have been both on-topic and sufficiently petty to fit neatly within the purview of this sadly sidetracked thread.
So if we're done with the segue here, I'm sure there are plenty more petty quibbles that need to see the light of day.
Quote from: jeff37923;586752This just connects me with my inner Beat Poet, applauding you with the snapping of fingers. Yeah! :D
Thanks, I'm here all night. Don't forget to tip the staff, and try the lamb.
Quote from: The Traveller;586687If I had found his settings sufficiently compelling I'd have spent a tenth of the time that people waste crying on the internet and just put in my own system at home instead, for my own personal enjoyment. Its baffling why people would do otherwise, I mean no gaming company is ever going to release a game that is 100% suited to my tastes no matter how much whining goes on anyway.
And that, in short, is my point.
It'll take more than a tenth of that time, unfortunately. I know, I've tried.
You're faced with three problems:
A) There are flaws in the basic design.
B) There are flaws with iterations on that design.
C) There are gaps in the settings themselves.
Example with A, when I tried to convert it over to OpenD6, I ran into a huge issue with Mega Damage. Mathmatically, it doesn't work, even in the core rules alone. The basic weapons and armor in just the starter book are on a separate scale from the Glitter Boy.
Essentially the top end is written in Sanskrit and the bottom end is in Chinese.
When you're playing RIFTS, you're supposed to assume that game balance isn't important, and just handwave it all away. Very 'only a true Scottsman' of the system, but not great for conversion.
I could go on, but in short you may not know enough about the system to be estimating effort required to convert it. Not without losing a lot of the flavor, anyway.
If the designer were more open to the idea of conversion, he could at least serve as authority in how to keep the original vision and yet fit it into the new assumptions.
Quote from: TristramEvans;586477Likewise , I won't buy any game with poser art, and I also don't consider that petty. Presentation is an important part of RPG design. The game has to inspire me, and art is a big part of that.
Poser's okay, if it's used right; it's just another tool, an evolution of the human-form mini-mannequins other artists use. The output isn't intended to be the finished product, but to be further worked on... unfortunately, the RPG industry can't afford the better artists, and is stuck with the... posers.
If you can tell it's Poser art, someone hasn't done their job properly, and that's worth getting annoyed about. But just being annoyed about artists using Poser during the process is like getting annoyed at them for using pencils.
Quote from: mcbobbo;586781It'll take more than a tenth of that time, unfortunately. I know, I've tried.
You're faced with three problems:
A) There are flaws in the basic design.
B) There are flaws with iterations on that design.
C) There are gaps in the settings themselves.
Example with A, when I tried to convert it over to OpenD6, I ran into a huge issue with Mega Damage. Mathmatically, it doesn't work, even in the core rules alone. The basic weapons and armor in just the starter book are on a separate scale from the Glitter Boy.
Essentially the top end is written in Sanskrit and the bottom end is in Chinese.
True, its not as simple as scoffing it away, but really I rewrite the stats on equipment list and skills, magic too, and bring them to their nearest equivalents in my own system. A heavy assault rifle is a heavy assault rifle, a surface to air missile is a surface to air missile.
If they translate directly across well and good but if not I'm going to assume they're part of the problem. Megadamage for example sounds like a hack of a kludge of a band aid, without knowing much about it, so gone. Just rip out everything under the hood and leave that sexy body, I don't want to keep the feel of a game that feels broken to me. I've already got rules suitable for every genre I've run across, so emulating that aspect isn't too hard if needed.
Maybe most people don't have a broad based system that they're comfortable enough with to do that.
If your game's mechanicy rules are not in easy-to-get-to charts in the middle or even back of your core book but are instead buried in page after page of game-fic and fluff text then your game is shit and you should feel bad for publishing it.
I'm looking straight at YOOOOOOOOOOOU, EXALTEEEEEEEEED.
Meh. Barring something really vile or criminal, I usually don't the let artist/author/designer's personality and lifestyle affect my purchases.
That said, while I don't hate the current designers at WotC, I do wish they would stop trying to "improve" on D&D. That's where it gets petty and irrational for me. If they want to make their own version of D&D, they can grab the SRD and go nuts, but if they're making something that doesn't play like, nor is at least 95% compatible with TSR D&D, then they shouldn't slap "Dungeons & Dragons" on the cover, even if the company they work for has the rights to do so.
This is partly why I'm not all that enthused about 5e. It looks like they will continue to fiddle with it, like an infected scab, until it spews a strangely sweet-smelling pus of a product, just because it's good for business.
Man! Am I cynical today :(
Quote from: Ladybird;586784But just being annoyed about artists using Poser during the process is like getting annoyed at them for using pencils.
Nobody's getting annoyed about that. Quite obviously, I'm talking about games with poser art, not games with art by artists that used poser art as a reference. But then, I think you know that.
Kevin Siembieda.
Quote from: The Butcher;586905Kevin Siembieda.
He really used to bug me alot, but nowadays I think I mostly just feel sorry for him.
Quote from: TristramEvans;586881Nobody's getting annoyed about that. Quite obviously, I'm talking about games with poser art, not games with art by artists that used poser art as a reference. But then, I think you know that.
Fair enough.
I actually agree with you on poser art, to be honest. If you can tell Poser was involved, it was done poorly.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;586925He really used to bug me alot, but nowadays I think I mostly just feel sorry for him.
I know, right? I feel sorry for the guy too. But I also admire him, and I want to break his jaw, all at the same time.
The confusion would probably clear up if he'd go back to his pre-
Rifts: England writing standards.
Quote from: mcbobbo;586781When you're playing RIFTS, you're supposed to assume that game balance isn't important, and just handwave it all away. Very 'only a true Scottsman' of the system, but not great for conversion.
I could go on, but in short you may not know enough about the system to be estimating effort required to convert it. Not without losing a lot of the flavor, anyway.
If the designer were more open to the idea of conversion, he could at least serve as authority in how to keep the original vision and yet fit it into the new assumptions.
When doing conversions, converting the concept is always much, much easier than converting the mechanics.
I've converted RIFTS into three other game systems successfully by sticking to the maxim of "convert the concept not the mechanics".
We already know the mechanics are broken, after all. Strip those out entirely, separate the system from the setting and then read just the (copious) amount of fluff on each thing in the game you're converting and say "how would I make that in this system" and then do that.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;586944We already know the mechanics are broken, after all. Strip those out entirely, separate the system from the setting and then read just the (copious) amount of fluff on each thing in the game you're converting and say "how would I make that in this system" and then do that.
Yes.
Quote from: The Traveller;585488Do people really make buying decisions based on personalities? I couldn't care less who produces a product as long as the product is good. Same with music. Then you get to the complex conundrum of changing personalities, will you burn all the books created by a certain writer if he joins the KKK and gets a Hitler tache tattoo after a lifetime of social service?
My favourite example here is Charles Dickens, by day proponent of improving the conditions for the impoverished of London, by night a genocidal lunatic that wanted to personally murder all the "Hindoos".
Frankly I don't care, as long as I don't feel they are pushing an agenda through their work, that irritates me. Admittedly I would have a problem with the radical ink klansman above, but that's an edge case.
One asks of a pudding, not if the cook who offers it is a good woman, but if the pudding itself is good. --H.L. Mencken
John Wick.
His portentous use.
Of Carriage Return.
I'll admit, most use of CG art (particularly Poser), turns me off quicker than poor pencils and inks.
I'm more forgiving to work drawn by hand, than manipulated into position.
Quote from: Novastar;587104I'll admit, most use of CG art (particularly Poser), turns me off quicker than poor pencils and inks.
Me, too. I tend to dislike computer-generated art that looks like computer-generated art. If it's computer-generated art
and I can't tell, then it's no problem.
(Not claiming this is reasonable on my part, it's just the way it is.)
Quote from: Novastar;587104I'll admit, most use of CG art (particularly Poser), turns me off quicker than poor pencils and inks.
I'm more forgiving to work drawn by hand, than manipulated into position.
Poser, like any other tool, can be used to churn out crap. But it can also be used to produce some fantastic stuff too.
Roy the Halfling (my current avatar) is a Poser character.
Petty?
I will never give WotC another dime because of the debacle that was 4E.
I put down the book Haven: City of Violence after reading the intro by Louis Porter because it was the single most arrogant and pretentious piece of prose I have ever encountered. I just couldn't read then game.
Kevin Siembieda is an egocentric, megalomanical madman. He is a pox upon our hobby. But After the Bomb (Second Edition) is an awesome game.
Quote from: Novastar;587104I'll admit, most use of CG art (particularly Poser), turns me off quicker than poor pencils and inks.
I'm more forgiving to work drawn by hand, than manipulated into position.
Computer artwork that hasn't carefully been textured and lighted can look awful, and I wonder if those artists wouldn't be better off using the cartoon rendering engines that Poser and other 3D software has that would turn their scene into something that looks more like comic book or shaded line art than plastic toys.
Quote from: Roger the GS;587045John Wick.
His portentous use.
Of Carriage Return.
A thousand times yes to this.
Quote from: Tetsubo;587164But After the Bomb (Second Edition) is an awesome game.
You can thank Erick Wujcik for that. He wrote it. KS may have thrown in a few ideas or what not. But that was/is Erick's book.
Quote from: Ronin;587349You can thank Erick Wujcik for that. He wrote it. KS may have thrown in a few ideas or what not. But that was/is Erick's book.
Oh I know. But Palladium is still on the cover and KS owns the company. Frankly I'm stunned he doesn't claim creative ownership of everything...
Quote from: Tetsubo;587354Oh I know. But Palladium is still on the cover and KS owns the company. Frankly I'm stunned he doesn't claim creative ownership of everything...
That I agree with you on.
Quote from: Tetsubo;587354Oh I know. But Palladium is still on the cover and KS owns the company. Frankly I'm stunned he doesn't claim creative ownership of everything...
Wujcik had his tongue so far down the back of K.S.'s trousers in those days, he was little more than a puppet anyways.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;586944When doing conversions, converting the concept is always much, much easier than converting the mechanics.
I've converted RIFTS into three other game systems successfully by sticking to the maxim of "convert the concept not the mechanics".
We already know the mechanics are broken, after all. Strip those out entirely, separate the system from the setting and then read just the (copious) amount of fluff on each thing in the game you're converting and say "how would I make that in this system" and then do that.
That's where I'd like to go back to 'the man' and get his input on the conversion.
What
is the concept, precisely? Or in my own words, what exactly were you
thinking, because it doesn't make much sense. Even through my 1990's gaming lens.
What did you do with the MD scaling in your conversions? Did you leave it disgustingly unbalanced? Or did you pull the bottom upward / the top down?
Outside of straight-up GM fiat, what's to stop a character from another system from 'stealing' a Glitter Boy? RIFTS dealt with this through non-mechanical ways, but if you strip that part out (by chunking the OCC system), what do you do next?
MD being 100 points of SD was completely arbitrary. Obviously just picked out of hat. There are a lot of ways that you can houserule super-armor into whatever Modern/Futuristic core you are building off of.
I personally wouldn't treat armor as a pool of hit points in the first place, so there wouldn't be any need to adjust the scale. Just have one scale (or none if you aren't using HP at all) for damage, and then have your "Megadamage" vehicles and such be virtually immune except to a class of similarly advanced technology (you need a +3 Laserbeam to hit this mecha) for the sake of keeping it simple. If you absolutely had to have megadamage weapons doing oodles of damage to SDC creatures, you could say they always do 2x or more damage and always crit, whatever crits do in your houseruled Rifts.
The biggest problem with Rifts for me wasn't the MD v SD though, it was how long combat took to resolve, with all of the active defenses and then individual damage tracking per part of the mecha if you are fighting in one. I'm sure I'm forgetting other things but I know combat in that game never went quickly as written.
Quote from: Wolf, Richard;587946MD being 100 points of SD was completely arbitrary. Obviously just picked out of hat. There are a lot of ways that you can houserule super-armor into whatever Modern/Futuristic core you are building off of.
I personally wouldn't treat armor as a pool of hit points in the first place, so there wouldn't be any need to adjust the scale. Just have one scale (or none if you aren't using HP at all) for damage, and then have your "Megadamage" vehicles and such be virtually immune except to a class of similarly advanced technology (you need a +3 Laserbeam to hit this mecha) for the sake of keeping it simple. If you absolutely had to have megadamage weapons doing oodles of damage to SDC creatures, you could say they always do 2x or more damage and always crit, whatever crits do in your houseruled Rifts.
The biggest problem with Rifts for me wasn't the MD v SD though, it was how long combat took to resolve, with all of the active defenses and then individual damage tracking per part of the mecha if you are fighting in one. I'm sure I'm forgetting other things but I know combat in that game never went quickly as written.
By RAW damage is always to the main body.
If you were using hit locations then you added in a extra level of complexity thereby lengthening the time spent in a combat round and then complain that the combat system was slow?
The combat in Palladium as written is no faster or slower than that of any other system run RAW. (granted the system does not handle mass combat well; but I have seen damn few systems that can).
as to petty reasons to not buy products?
well if its the game of the second at RPG,net you can pretty much bet I want nothing to do with it.
Quote from: Wolf, Richard;587946I personally wouldn't treat armor as a pool of hit points in the first place, so there wouldn't be any need to adjust the scale. Just have one scale (or none if you aren't using HP at all) for damage, and then have your "Megadamage" vehicles and such be virtually immune except to a class of similarly advanced technology (you need a +3 Laserbeam to hit this mecha) for the sake of keeping it simple. If you absolutely had to have megadamage weapons doing oodles of damage to SDC creatures, you could say they always do 2x or more damage and always crit, whatever crits do in your houseruled Rifts.
The MD gap in RIFTS isn't MDC vs SDC, but MD weapon 'A' vs MD armor 'B'. It gets exponentially worse due to power creep in subsequent books.
Welcome Damian!
Quote from: mcbobbo;587977The MD gap in RIFTS isn't MDC vs SDC, but MD weapon 'A' vs MD armor 'B'. It gets exponentially worse due to power creep in subsequent books.
Agreed to a point...
I personally have no issue with that aspect of the system.
But I do see the issue.
This does bring up an Interesting question in my mind though...
Is the weapon/armor disparity a mechanics issue or a design choice?
Quote from: One Horse Town;587978Welcome Damian!
Been here a awhile just never found a thread that interested this old grognard enough to post.
None the less your welcome is well received.
Quote from: mcbobbo;587804What did you do with the MD scaling in your conversions? Did you leave it disgustingly unbalanced? Or did you pull the bottom upward / the top down?
Again, you don't convert MDC. MDC is a Mechanic. You don't convert mechanics. Instead, you convert the concept of "there are things which are way WAY tougher/more dangerous than modern weapons and armor". Convert THAT. To what scale depends on what you want in the game. If you want the weapons to pulp normal humans, no question, then make them that tough in your system of choice. Scale armor accordingly. If you're ok with laser pistols not exploding someone like a blood sausage, then scale accordingly. How much damage do you think a laser should do in your system of choice? Do that. It's not hard.
Don't convert the system. Convert the setting.
It works like this: describe the thing you are converting in plain English, no mechanical terminology. Explain it as you would to someone who doesn't know the system. Once you have that, forget everything you know about the palladium system mechanics and re-read your description in terms of your chosen game's mechanics. And Bob's your uncle.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;588396Again, you don't convert MDC. MDC is a Mechanic. You don't convert mechanics. Instead, you convert the concept of "there are things which are way WAY tougher/more dangerous than modern weapons and armor". Convert THAT. To what scale depends on what you want in the game. If you want the weapons to pulp normal humans, no question, then make them that tough in your system of choice. Scale armor accordingly. If you're ok with laser pistols not exploding someone like a blood sausage, then scale accordingly. How much damage do you think a laser should do in your system of choice? Do that. It's not hard.
Don't convert the system. Convert the setting.
It works like this: describe the thing you are converting in plain English, no mechanical terminology. Explain it as you would to someone who doesn't know the system. Once you have that, forget everything you know about the palladium system mechanics and re-read your description in terms of your chosen game's mechanics. And there you go.
just make sure the system of choice can still retain the feel of the setting as well...
I have seen too many conversions of Rifts that while mechanically sound lost something in the translation.
For example: Rifts (a front loaded character system) into a Zero to Hero system (never pretty).
Quote from: Damian Magecraft;588398just make sure the system of choice can still retain the feel of the setting as well...
I have seen too many conversions of Rifts that while mechanically sound lost something in the translation.
For example: Rifts (a front loaded character system) into a Zero to Hero system (never pretty).
I assume people know what feel they want out of their game, as I noted, and know their chosen system well enough to get that feel. For some people, a zero to hero game set in the RIFTS universe may be exactly what they want. Front loaded character system is mechanics again, and remember, we don't convert those.
Quote from: Damian Magecraft;588329This does bring up an Interesting question in my mind though...
Is the weapon/armor disparity a mechanics issue or a design choice?
Exactly what I'd like to discuss with KS.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;588396Instead, you convert the concept of "there are things which are way WAY tougher/more dangerous than modern weapons and armor".
(snip)
It works like this: describe the thing you are converting in plain English, no mechanical terminology. Explain it as you would to someone who doesn't know the system. Once you have that, forget everything you know about the palladium system mechanics and re-read your description in terms of your chosen game's mechanics. And Bob's your uncle.
Again, not worried about MD vs SDC. I'm worried about 2d6 damage from a CS Laser Pistol vs 770 MDC on a Glitterboy. Both as starting equipment.
Quote from: Damian Magecraft;588398just make sure the system of choice can still retain the feel of the setting as well...
Yes, this.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;588402Front loaded character system is mechanics again, and remember, we don't convert those.
Again, take the GB. Before converted, it is a class feature. After conversion it becomes gear. It's an issue. I'm not sure how to convert it without turning it into gear, and if I'm going to do that I'll have to nerf it hard. Which makes it no longer a GB.
It just gets worse when you start mixing in splat...
Quote from: mcbobbo;588485Again, not worried about MD vs SDC. I'm worried about 2d6 damage from a CS Laser Pistol vs 770 MDC on a Glitterboy. Both as starting equipment.
You can choose to keep that wacky divergence or run it your own way.
For example in my system, a standard twelve gauge shotgun does 8 points of damage out of the starting gate, hit points usually run from 5 to 10 in this game. Body armour will absorb 10 points of damage.
If I wanted to mimic the MD armour in Rifts I'd just put that kind of body armour at 20 or 25 absorption power. Rolling really really well on your attack might injure someone wearing that kind of armor, but its unlikely. You'd need something more like an anti-tank weapon, or armour piercing explosive slugs. If I wanted to make it completely impenetrable I'd just say it can't be damaged by lower tech levels. I probably wouldn't do that unless the armour being invincible was a significant feature of the setting with important ramifications socially though.
This brings up the unique charm of building in a more capable system instead of kludgy hacks. Your in-game options multiply tremendously, especially if you have a more comprehensive set of equipment or skills than the original game system. Fine tuning it then can really make a setting sing. There isn't neccessarily any loss in flavour, rather the setting is significantly improved.
Quote from: mcbobbo;588485Again, not worried about MD vs SDC. I'm worried about 2d6 damage from a CS Laser Pistol vs 770 MDC on a Glitterboy. Both as starting equipment.
Again, those are mechanics. We don't convert those. Describe a laser pistol in plain English. Describe a glitterboy in plain English. Convert those. Do not convert 770mdc to anything.
QuoteAgain, take the GB. Before converted, it is a class feature. After conversion it becomes gear. It's an issue. I'm not sure how to convert it without turning it into gear, and if I'm going to do that I'll have to nerf it hard. Which makes it no longer a GB.
I don't know what system you're converting to, but for virtually every system I own, I can think of how to fix that without "nerfing" anything.
How does your system of choice model "only specially trained individuals can use this thing"? Do that.
QuoteIt just gets worse when you start mixing in splat...
Only because you are still trying to convert mechanics instead of setting.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;587551Wujcik had his tongue so far down the back of K.S.'s trousers in those days, he was little more than a puppet anyways.
By which you mean they were very good friends who had gamed together since before either of them were household names in the hobby, and who stood by each other for their entire lives?
RPGPundit
Wanna convert Rifts? Here's how you do it.
If you're using physical books, then cut all the pictures out of the Rifts books.
If you're using PDFs, then cut and paste all the images from the documents.
Throw the remaining physical book in the trash or original PDF into the recycle bin. Any Burles art should go to the same place.
Take the images and stat them up in your favorite game system. Paste them either physically or electronically in your document depending on its type.
TaDaa! You now have your own conversion of Rifts created in the same way the professionals at Palladium do.
Quote from: Gabriel2;589123...TaDaa! You now have your own conversion of Rifts created in the same way the professionals at Palladium do.
Thank-you! That's the best laugh I've had today!
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;586138I Googled the cover (I wasn't familiar with the game) and found that it looks like the cover art to a really cheap VHS tape of a 1980's low-budget action film. Like a late 80's Menahem Golan's 21st Century Films' release of a dubbed and re-cut Hong Kong/Indonesia co-production staring Chris Mitchum.
That's kinda what it was supposed to be like, since the game is inspired by the books here (http://www.mackbolan.com) (just have a look at some of the covers (http://www.mackbolan.com/display.php3?num=441)!)
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;586138If the game was phamplet-sized and actually came packaged in a VHS clamshell with a bright orange "Please Be Kind-Rewind" sticker on the box, it would be an essential purchase.
I wish I had thought of doing that!
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;586138I Googled the cover (I wasn't familiar with the game) and found that it looks like the cover art to a really cheap VHS tape of a 1980's low-budget action film. Like a late 80's Menahem Golan's 21st Century Films' release of a dubbed and re-cut Hong Kong/Indonesia co-production staring Chris Mitchum.
If the game was phamplet-sized and actually came packaged in a VHS clamshell with a bright orange "Please Be Kind-Rewind" sticker on the box, it would be an essential purchase.
Quote from: Gabriel2;589123Wanna convert Rifts? Here's how you do it.
If you're using physical books, then cut all the pictures out of the Rifts books.
If you're using PDFs, then cut and paste all the images from the documents.
Throw the remaining physical book in the trash or original PDF into the recycle bin. Any Burles art should go to the same place.
Take the images and stat them up in your favorite game system. Paste them either physically or electronically in your document depending on its type.
TaDaa! You now have your own conversion of Rifts created in the same way the professionals at Palladium do.
Rifts: SWEDED!
I do not purchase anything from GMT games anymore since I learned about Gene Billingsley's conviction and incarceration for molestation of a child.
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/199456/wikipedia-page-kerfuffle
Quote from: Settembrini;617238I do not purchase anything from GMT games anymore since I learned about Gene Billingsley's conviction and incarceration for molestation of a child.
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/199456/wikipedia-page-kerfuffle
Jesus. Was not aware of that. I wouldn't purchase from them either now.
Quote from: Settembrini;617238I do not purchase anything from GMT games anymore since I learned about Gene Billingsley's conviction and incarceration for molestation of a child.
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/199456/wikipedia-page-kerfuffle
Well, I would say that this certainly is not petty. Luckily, I don't purchase wargames but GMT Games gets the distinction of being the second company/personality to make my RPG Blacklist.
The first on my list is Jim Shipman and Outlaw Press. I haven't purchased/played much T&T over the years, but, if and when I do, I now know to be wary of Outlaw Press products and make sure that I never give Jim Shipman a dime of my money.
Quote from: Drohem;617261The first on my list is Jim Shipman and Outlaw Press. I haven't purchased/played much T&T over the years, but, if and when I do, I now know to be wary of Outlaw Press products and make sure that I never give Jim Shipman a dime of my money.
My understanding is he springs up every couple of years, and sells books for games he doesn't have the license for. :idunno:
Quote from: Drohem;617261The first on my list is Jim Shipman and Outlaw Press. I haven't purchased/played much T&T over the years, but, if and when I do, I now know to be wary of Outlaw Press products and make sure that I never give Jim Shipman a dime of my money.
I think there's more to the story there. There was a time when Shipman was loved by the T&T crowd for keeping T&T going. I get the feeling that people knew even then that something was up, but kept quiet because he was providing T&T products and keeping the torch lit. It only became a huge issue when other folks outside the circle saw what was going on and blew the whistle, then everyone turned on the guy.
I wouldn't call "pedohpiles" and "Art theft/plaguarism" "petty" concerns myself. Both very legitimate reasons to shun a product/company.
Quote from: TristramEvans;617283I wouldn't call "pedohpiles" and "Art theft/plaguarism" "petty" concerns myself. Both very legitimate reasons to shun a product/company.
Quite.
I ordered a package of T&T stuff from Shipman before I knew he was a thief. The reprints were good, but his own T&T modules... horrible doesn't even start to describe them.
Quote from: Melan;617285Quite.
I ordered a package of T&T stuff from Shipman before I knew he was a thief. The reprints were good, but his own T&T modules... horrible doesn't even start to describe them.
Just like you, I got his reprint of the UK edition, black cover with white swirl, before he was caught. I got rid of it when I found out.
The modules could be his, or they could be from other authors. He would pull their work without permission from sites or other t&t products.
Quote from: RunningLaser;617278I think there's more to the story there. There was a time when Shipman was loved by the T&T crowd for keeping T&T going. I get the feeling that people knew even then that something was up, but kept quiet because he was providing T&T products and keeping the torch lit. It only became a huge issue when other folks outside the circle saw what was going on and blew the whistle, then everyone turned on the guy.
This all may be well and good, but when the creator of the game publicly asks the dude to stop his practices and the dude basically says 'FU, I'll keep doing what I'm doing' then it has crossed the line and the point of no return for me as a consumer.
Quote from: Drohem;617561This all may be well and good, but when the creator of the game publicly asks the dude to stop his practices and the dude basically says 'FU, I'll keep doing what I'm doing' then it has crossed the line and the point of no return for me as a consumer.
What did he do exactly?
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;617574What did he do exactly?
Shipman publishes supplements for T&T that are composed of plaguarized material and are illustrated with stolen artwork.
Thinking about this I realized how tribalistic... and petty... and inconsistent my own prejudices are.
If I heard a writer/artist was a murderer/rapist/paedophile... it doesn't put me off their stuff at all. Roman Polanski, William Burroughs, Dali, Picasso... all complete bastards on some level but I enjoy their work without a qualm.
But if someone is a overtly religious, politically extreme, outspoken against something/someone I like... I'll tear my coat and turn my back on them forever.
It's really silly, but that seems to be how my brain decides.
The only game companies that I outright boycott are Palladium and Mongoose... and modern day Games Workshop. There are more games, like Savage Worlds and 4e and Warmachine, whose fans have put a bad taste in my mouth by being zealots... but I don't necessarily have issues with the games themselves or their companies.
Quote from: TristramEvans;617583Shipman publishes supplements for T&T that are composed of plaguarized material and are illustrated with stolen artwork.
... and continues to do so even when the author of the game and community around the game explicitly asked him to stop such practices.
Quote from: Drohem;617591... and continues to do so even when the author of the game and community around the game explicitly asked him to stop such practices.
Yeah, he basically is gleefully exploiting teh fact that the people/company he takes advantage of/steals from aren't ina financial position to pursue legal actions against him.
Which really rubs my craw.
His products have been kicked off of Amazon and Lulu from time to time, but he pops back up like a cockroach every once in a while.
Why hasn't anyone done a Kickstarter for a T&T legal defense fund to stop Shipman from doing this crap yet?
Is he printing actual copyrighted text and art (or trademarks) in his books? Is he
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;617615Is he printing actual copyrighted text and art (or trademarks) in his books? Is he
Yes, blatantly.
Didn't GMT reform the company under an LLC that the criminal doesn't own or run?
Quote from: CRKrueger;617618Didn't GMT reform the company under an LLC that the criminal doesn't own or run?
As I understand it, he no longer has an y rights or permission to publish anything T&T related at all.
Quote from: Simlasa;617589Thinking about this I realized how tribalistic... and petty... and inconsistent my own prejudices are.
If I heard a writer/artist was a murderer/rapist/paedophile... it doesn't put me off their stuff at all. Roman Polanski, William Burroughs, Dali, Picasso... all complete bastards on some level but I enjoy their work without a qualm.
But if someone is a overtly religious, politically extreme, outspoken against something/someone I like... I'll tear my coat and turn my back on them forever.
It's really silly, but that seems to be how my brain decides.
In practice, it is very difficult to be precisely consistent in one's overall behavior. It's very much human nature.
I don't fault anyone for behaving inconsistently from what they say outright.
Quote from: CRKrueger;617618Didn't GMT reform the company under an LLC that the criminal doesn't own or run?
According to the very BoardGameGeek thread quoted above, the aforementioned pedophile doesn't actually own or operate GMT in any way.
Quote from: Simlasa;617589Thinking about this I realized how tribalistic... and petty... and inconsistent my own prejudices are.
If I heard a writer/artist was a murderer/rapist/paedophile... it doesn't put me off their stuff at all. Roman Polanski, William Burroughs, Dali, Picasso... all complete bastards on some level but I enjoy their work without a qualm.
But if someone is a overtly religious, politically extreme, outspoken against something/someone I like... I'll tear my coat and turn my back on them forever.
It's really silly, but that seems to be how my brain decides.
The only game companies that I outright boycott are Palladium and Mongoose... and modern day Games Workshop. There are more games, like Savage Worlds and 4e and Warmachine, whose fans have put a bad taste in my mouth by being zealots... but I don't necessarily have issues with the games themselves or their companies.
Personally, I believe art transcends morality. Meaning the morals and ethics of the artist (whatever the medium), even amoral or loathful opinions expressed or put forth in the work do not in any way the value of the art itself. The art will, if good enough, survive beyond the creator and the petty temporal social problems of their era.
That said, while I admit to rather liking Polanksi's films, I'll also go out of my way to not support them financially, for example. Which generally means either download or secondhand dvds. There are in fact a number of people/companies that I value the art of but go out of my way not to contribute to their pockets, like Disney (which now, sadly, also includes Marvel, Mattel, English-translation Miyazaki films and Star Wars). So, in exchange for a feeling of ethical justifiability, I miss out on seeing Brave on the big screen, f'rex.
Just out of curiosity, though, what did Palladium, Mongoose, and/or Picasso do?
Quote from: thedungeondelver;585338I would really prefer not to ever buy any Paizo stuff again because they employ Sean Reynolds. His opinions about AD&D are shit.
Yeah, Reynolds annoys the shit out of me too. Has for many years. But I'd still buy their products, and even ones he authors. Him being a complete asshole isn't relevant to me buying good product.
Quote from: Mistwell;617633Yeah, Reynolds annoys the shit out of me too. Has for many years. But I'd still buy their products, and even ones he authors. Him being a complete asshole isn't relevant to me buying good product.
If I was still DMing regular games, I would probably still be buying Pathfinder titles regularly.
Kinda pointless buying adventure paths and modules books every month, when I haven't DM'd any regular games in over a year.
Quote from: Simon W;617069That's kinda what it was supposed to be like, since the game is inspired by the books here (http://www.mackbolan.com) (just have a look at some of the covers (http://www.mackbolan.com/display.php3?num=441)!)
Regarding Dogs of W*A*R cover, I totally get it that it's in the style of the books and videos of that genre and era, but perhaps it's too authentic to come across as ironic.
Quote from: TristramEvans;617628Personally, I believe art transcends morality. Meaning the morals and ethics of the artist (whatever the medium), even amoral or loathful opinions expressed or put forth in the work do not in any way the value of the art itself. The art will, if good enough, survive beyond the creator and the petty temporal social problems of their era.
That said, while I admit to rather liking Polanksi's films, I'll also go out of my way to not support them financially, for example. Which generally means either download or secondhand dvds. There are in fact a number of people/companies that I value the art of but go out of my way not to contribute to their pockets, like Disney (which now, sadly, also includes Marvel, Mattel, English-translation Miyazaki films and Star Wars). So, in exchange for a feeling of ethical justifiability, I miss out on seeing Brave on the big screen, f'rex.
Just out of curiosity, though, what did Palladium, Mongoose, and/or Picasso do?
Technically disney justs distributes studio ghibli films in the states these days, the dubbing is done by studio canal and anime studio's instead because disney were piss poor at getting it done on time and properly.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;617574What did he do exactly?
The Shipman/T&T stuff is really weird. The best known is the stolen art. Lots of it : people have found seventy-plus pieces used without license or proper attribution on covers alone (http://mxyzplk.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/outlaw-press-covers-comparison-list.pdf). It wasn't terribly obvious at first. T&T isn't exactly the biggest game, and a lot of the art came from fairly obscure folk or from art that had been licensed out far enough that it takes some effort to track down. Shipman attributed the covers to entirely different artists, and at least in one case when called on it, changed over the cover art over to a (properly licensed) piece from that artist and called it a mistake. Then when people started looking more heavily at the full catalog and seeing stuff that had been licensed to Games Workshop and World of Warcraft's CCG, the shit hit the fan.
Most publishers ended up taking down the contested works, some with a good deal of resistance, and then Flying Buffalo pulled his license for the T&T system. And then he kept selling the stuff direct from his website -- at discount -- or through eBay under other names. Meanwhile, folk asking him about it got tall tales of an art broker selling him the stuff, or in the case of Flying Buffalo, bizarre paranoid rants about irrelevant matters. DCMA requests fly, legal threats, yada yada. A couple original artists and authors ended up getting smacked in the crossfire, and had problems getting their own self-published works back into the fold.
It ended up not just being art, either: he was selling a free fanzine or two, and a couple entire adventure modules were pretty much looted from D&D mags word-for-word with system-specific terms swapped. Adventure stuff, too.
Some of the skeezy behavior, people had just been overlooking: Shipman was pretty obviously violating the Tolkien estate's intellectual property with
The Hobbit Hole, but who cared that they weren't called something idiotic like halflings? He'd been caught selling the (free)
Mazes and Minotaurs game a year earlier, which people really didn't discuss loud enough, but that sort of thing happens.
It's just when the scale of it became apparent, that it was a big deal.
Quote from: jeff37923;617613Why hasn't anyone done a Kickstarter for a T&T legal defense fund to stop Shipman from doing this crap yet?
He's almost certainly judgement proof, and it'd be really hard to hit him in any way that actually stopped or even slowed him down.
(Kickstarter specifically also isn't set up for those sort of funding systems, and attempting it there could cause ToS issues.)
Quote from: TristramEvans;617628Just out of curiosity, though, what did... Picasso do?
Picasso was pretty unabashedly pro-Stalin, and quite willing to regurgitate often bizarre anti-American propaganda in his works, among other failings.
Pablo Picasso, no one called him an asshole.
JG
Quote from: Simlasa;617589But if someone is a overtly religious, politically extreme, outspoken against something/someone I like... I'll tear my coat and turn my back on them forever.
It's really silly, but that seems to be how my brain decides.
Well, to be fair, if someone is that hardcore about their religious/political/social views then odds are that sooner or later it's going to filter into their work, so if you don't want to be subjected to someone loudly grinding an ideological axe you personally find repugnant - and let's face it, who does? - it's reasonable to steer clear because it's not like there's a shortage of work by people who agree with you (or who disagree with you but make less of a song and dance about it).
Quote from: J Arcane;617622According to the very BoardGameGeek thread quoted above, the aforementioned pedophile doesn't actually own or operate GMT in any way.
Wasn't there some sort of chicanery involved where in principle the pedophile in question isn't named on any of the papers, but in practice his wife is involved in some capacity and he basically exerts influence on the company through her?
Either way, the fact that the co-founders decided to leave and make their own company rather than continue to be involved with it is interesting to me. Does anyone know whether this was in response to GMT's nastiness?
Quote from: jeff37923;617613Why hasn't anyone done a Kickstarter for a T&T legal defense fund to stop Shipman from doing this crap yet?
I'm fairly sure that to run a Kickstarter you need to have an actual product in mind - you can't run a Kickstarter with the intent of using the money to sue someone because that isn't really the sort of project the site is for.
Quote from: Warthur;617781Well, to be fair, if someone is that hardcore about their religious/political/social views then odds are that sooner or later it's going to filter into their work, so if you don't want to be subjected to someone loudly grinding an ideological axe you personally find repugnant - and let's face it, who does? - it's reasonable to steer clear because it's not like there's a shortage of work by people who agree with you (or who disagree with you but make less of a song and dance about it).
The absolute worst are the individuals who attempt to impose their worldview by gaining enough power and hijacking a particular niche. Two really famous egregious historical cases are "Deutsche Physik" and "Lysenkoism"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Physik
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
Petty things that may turn me off buying an otherwise great game:
- Spraying ©™® after every mention of the game's name.
- One long wide column of single-spaced text on letter-ish size paper. Even the indi-est of indie publishers can change column widths in their word processor.
- Insistence on using only one kind of die (like a d12 or d20 or something) and then trying unsuccessfully to shoehorn in variable weapon damage or something using that one die-type. I'm a gamer, I have dice, I can roll a d10 or a d8. I'll make an exception for d6s, but still, if I have found your game and bought it, you can bet I've got other dice.
- I don't want to hear about your religion or politics at the best of times. I certainly don't want to pay you money for the privilege. As an example, I was considering the Sixcess kickstarter (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1299187159/sixcess-core-rulebook) a while back but when I saw the FAQ at the bottom and that turned me right off. Thumbs up to them for being upfront about it and for that reason I don't criticize their motives or product.
- The language "Common" or species languages like "Halfling".
- Futuristic games with mega-merger countries: the "Republic of Scandinavia", or "The United States of North America", or "Africa". Barring some renewed age of imperialism, aren't countries getting more and more politically and culturally Balkanized? Is it just that gamers don't want to have to process more than ten or so countries per world - that seems to be the limit in most fantasy worlds. Or is it that I'm tired of getting lumped into the the USNA. Yeah, that's probably it.
The United States of North America ©™® - brought to you by Unilever!
Quote from: James Gillen;618387The United States of North America ©™® - brought to you by Unilever!
There is a campaign setting there, dreary corporate dystopia with equally dreary 50s food advertisements.
I really don't understand how someone could literally and knowingly print dozens of pieces of copyrighted art without permission and yet be "judgment proof"?
RPGPundit
Quote from: James Gillen;618387The United States of North America ©™® - brought to you by Unilever!
Is that in The Real World©™®MTV Productions?
Quote from: RPGPundit;618448I really don't understand how someone could literally and knowingly print dozens of pieces of copyrighted art without permission and yet be "judgment proof"?
RPGPundit
Lawyers are expensive, and IP law is arcane and stupid.
Quote from: RPGPundit;618448I really don't understand how someone could literally and knowingly print dozens of pieces of copyrighted art without permission and yet be "judgment proof"?
"Judgement proof" isn't in regards to obviousness of guilt. You can have a signed confession and a dozen eyewitnesses and still be judgement proof. It's a question of a) whether you can prove enough damages to not waste a court's time, and b) whether a guy running out of the internet equivalent of a parent's basement and Kinko's has the spare cash to pay you those non-time-wasting damages. It's not like we're talking a big corporation (or possibly even a corporation: Outlaw Press Inc doesn't show up in a quick search) with a lot of spare cash in the bank.
Quote from: Melan;618426There is a campaign setting there, dreary corporate dystopia with equally dreary 50s food advertisements.
I think it's called "the United States of America".
JG
Quote from: RPGPundit;618448I really don't understand how someone could literally and knowingly print dozens of pieces of copyrighted art without permission and yet be "judgment proof"?
Some people just aren't worth suing. I once had a woman viciously libel me (triggering an investigation by police). I could easily prove that her accusations were malicious, so I contacted an attorney about suing her. He told me that it would cost 20 to 30 thousand dollars to pursue the suit, which I would certainly win. He then added that it would take a miracle before I would "see dime one from that harpy".
I could win the suit, but successfully collecting from the defendant was a whole other matter.
Quote from: The Traveller;586518But sure what, I have a copy of Fading Suns on my hard drive here with the engine and mechanics completely gutted and replaced by my own system. It may never see the light of day for copyright reasons but it works for me.
If I had instead spent that week and a half complaining loudly about it on the internet I'd never have gotten to enjoy the richness and depth of the milieu on my own terms.
If you want something done right after all...
Agreed. The Fading Suns universe is fantastic! The rules.. meh...
~Nitehood
Quote from: James Gillen;617714Pablo Picasso, no one called him an asshole.
JG
true, girls could not resist his stare.
Quote from: beeber;620973true, girls could not resist his stare.
He would walk down the street, he was only five-foot-three.
I have a new candidate.
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Amarillo Design Bureau (http://federationcommander.blogspot.com/2013/01/more-on-computer-apocalypse-and-recovery.html).
Starfleet Battles is always a game I observed from afar. Some of the gamers I knew back in the day had a real knack for the game and the stories they told about various battles and hilarious tricks of the dice interested me, but not enough to draw me in. I remember my friend Rob trying to engage me in a game with a mapboard on his lap while he drove, doing combat turns at red lights. :P
But to ADB, in case you didn't click that link, is apparently staffed entirely by Mac worshipers.
Now, we can argue until the server that hosts this website crumbles to dust about the various merits of Macs versus PCs, but I think we can skip to the end and say ultimately that they have their strengths and weaknesses, and each has their purpose and place and above all that a well-maintained modern computer is (assuming you place your company's eggs in the Information Technology basket in one way or another) definitely a good thing to have.
Not so at Amarillo Design Bureau!
There, it's always 1996 whether it benefits the customers or not. Not only
can't they update their computers, they steadfastly
refuse to.
Here's some choice quotes:
Quote"We use Mac 9.2.2. because OSX isn't Mac, but Unix, and we hate it. (We had OSX on one machine and it was so bad we paid to have that machine converted to 9.2.2.) I do have OSX on the Mac at home and find it much harder to use which is why I only have limited BBS access from home (and nothing else on that computer works well enough to bother with). Plus, it would cost thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours to convert the company to OSX or Windows 7."
HURRRRRRRRRR
Quote"Obviously, one solution is to set up a big server and copy stuff there. The problem is that you have to find one that works with Mac 9.2.2 and that is ... tricky. We're on the trail of a solution, but its far from easy. You could buy a G4 (only available on the used market) and install some big hard disks (which are no longer made for G4s), or use some non-Mac9 server that has lots and lots of fun issues. [We may actually just upload files to a blocked FTP site no one can access. That or email them to a super-dooper-PC as attachments that can be emailed back if needed.] In the meantime, we've added another layer of protection with weekly CDs burned from the hard disks and manually copying key current products to thumbdrives."
DURRRRRRR. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136457)
Quote"It is interesting that the Macs have run for 14 years. (PCs won't last half that long.) We're in new ground that even Apple has never tested. Literally, no one knows what happens when you run a Mac that long. "
...as I glance at my 15-year-old retro-gaming PC in its 20 year old case...
Quote"PCs just are still not up to Mac power levels and OSX doesn't have the same productivity because of needless features that are just in the way."
He keeps using that word, "productivity" - I don't think it means what he thinks it means. No, scratch that, it doesn't mean what he thinks it means AT. ALL.
Also "Mac power levels" is
hil-ARIOUS.
...
So, in a nutshell: "We're superstitious and basically think computers are magical boxes with pixie dust from the Wozfairy to keep them operating oh and also did they even make computers after 1996 lol. Also running around with an armload of flash drives = acceptable backup plan. I've never heard of an 'ecksturnul hard dryve'."
Quote from: thedungeondelver;620982There, it's always 1996 whether it benefits the customers or not. Not only can't they update their computers, they steadfastly refuse to.
Love the way a non OS9 solution would have lots of "fun issues". Don't think there's a more "fun issue" than having your computer die and wipe out days, weeks, months, years of work.
Headless Ubuntu LAMP server with Appletalk, guys. C'mon.
Quote from: smiorgan;620991Love the way a non OS9 solution would have lots of "fun issues". Don't think there's a more "fun issue" than having your computer die and wipe out days, weeks, months, years of work.
Headless Ubuntu LAMP server with Appletalk, guys. C'mon.
"Servers are for Windows machines only, or are big room-sized old computers with tape reels" (my MIL, who actually thinks that and would probably be as happy as a pig in mud working at ADB :P )
Oh and also how a SATA controller addon seems to elude them (the 128gb limitation on the Mac G4 is a hardware matter...)
That's... impressive. I guess it explains the terrabad website design, but just
finding a tech willing to put up with that...
The idea that a backup server (SVN or GIT are kinda designed for this) would be unacceptable, but an FTP site -- cause there are ever so many of those running on powerPC-CPU'd Macs, of all things -- somewhere would work is mind-boggling, even by the high standards of PBKAC issues. I hope they're at least keeping the thumbdrives active and moving, however; disk drives simply aren't built for a ten-year lifespan.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;620994Oh and also how a SATA controller addon seems to elude them (the 128gb limitation on the Mac G4 is a hardware matter...)
Inability to plug in a PCI card is really the least of the sins involved, here. ((I think OS9 also had a 190gb volume limit, too, and I don't think I'd trust these folk with multiple volumes on a disk.))
Hey, I have fond memories of OS9 - but I wouldn't stake *my business* on it. Sometimes you have to make hard choices. Personally, I also really like OSX but even if I didn't I would relegate OS9 to tinkering on hobby projects.
-TGA
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;621000Hey, I have fond memories of OS9 - but I wouldn't stake *my business* on it. Sometimes you have to make hard choices. Personally, I also really like OSX but even if I didn't I would relegate OS9 to tinkering on hobby projects.
-TGA
Hell I fondly remember Amiga OS, but I sure as shit wouldn't balance my business on it.
I don't like Blizzard that much since Jay Wilson messed up Diablo... Does that count?
Quote from: beeber;620973true, girls could not resist his stare.
I was wondering if someone would get that.
JG
Quote from: thedungeondelver;620982But to ADB, in case you didn't click that link, is apparently staffed entirely by Mac worshipers.
Now, we can argue until the server that hosts this website crumbles to dust about the various merits of Macs versus PCs, but I think we can skip to the end and say ultimately that they have their strengths and weaknesses, and each has their purpose and place and above all that a well-maintained modern computer is (assuming you place your company's eggs in the Information Technology basket in one way or another) definitely a good thing to have.
Not so at Amarillo Design Bureau!
There, it's always 1996 whether it benefits the customers or not. Not only can't they update their computers, they steadfastly refuse to.
Well, I like the SFB Universe because they deliberately stick to the Desilu Trek's late '60s/early '70s mentality. Unfortunately that seems to apply to their tech as well. :p
JG
Quote from: thedungeondelver;620982I have a new candidate.
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Amarillo Design Bureau (http://federationcommander.blogspot.com/2013/01/more-on-computer-apocalypse-and-recovery.html).
Holy
shit.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;620982I have a new candidate.
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Amarillo Design Bureau (http://federationcommander.blogspot.com/2013/01/more-on-computer-apocalypse-and-recovery.html).
Hilariously inept, but they are still in business while hundreds of their competitors have gone boots up. That tells me they are either a statistical anomaly, or they are doing something right that makes up for running a computer museum.
My understanding is that ADB's success is based on four factors:
- Star Fleet Battles is a reasonably good game, though I remain unconvinced that all those millions of Captain's Log supplements are really necessary.
- They have a licence to do Star Trek stuff, which means they have a big fat audience for their material.
- Their licence is, in many respects, incredibly generous. They're not allowed to incorporate official Trek stuff from after the original series and the cartoon, but aside from that they've never appeared to have struggled with royalty payments (do they even pay royalties on the licence?) and have more or less stated outright that the licence is never going away. I can only assume they managed to pick up the licence at a time when the IP owners didn't expect to do very much else with Trek - probably before Paramount got their hands on the IP because I can't imagine their lawyers letting such a generous licence slide.
- Within what restrictions the licence does place on them, they've managed to do interesting things. They're essentially running an alternate Trek universe which includes all the stuff from TOS and the cartoon plus heaps more stuff besides. I'm sure a certain proportion of the people who buy their products are Trek fans who are lukewarm about the wargame (if not completely disinterested) who simply like the idea of seeing what ADB are doing in this variant timeline of theirs.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;620982I have a new candidate.
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Amarillo Design Bureau (http://federationcommander.blogspot.com/2013/01/more-on-computer-apocalypse-and-recovery.html).
They are very special people, with very special attitudes to their computers.
They're living on borrowed computing time - when a data disaster occurs (And it will), they are going to be absolutely fucked. The longer they put off upgrading, the more expensive it will be, both in terms of the hardware/software and in terms of training on the new software.
Still, they'll be a good lesson regarding pointless system fanboyism.
Thanks for the explanation, Warthur. I didn't know much about them - never watched or liked Trek, so I am as far from their potential target audience as possible.
Quote from: J Arcane;586726Quote from: vytzka;586696Maybe I made it sound more harsh than I meant, either way Savage Worlds has long left the spot of the most hyped system on rpg.net. It does look like a decent rules-medium system from what I've seen of it. QuoteIt's not. It's one of the stupidest systems I have ever played.
It's precisely the kind of awful, affected, twee excuse for writing that certain types eat up with a spoon because they've been reading fantasy novels for so long that they mistake it for art.
why is savage worlds stupid? Though the smiling jack bollocks puts me off, that's for sure.
her writing worked in weapons of the gods, but that's because the style is appropriate for the pidgin cantonese/anglicised comic book poetics the game revolves around (which I happen to like). I have zero interest in Nobilis since it's just In Nomine.
Quote from: Roger the GS;587045John Wick.
His portentous use.
Of Carriage Return.
i suspect playing in one of his games would irritate me to fucktopia.
Quote from: Warthur;621288My understanding is that ADB's success is based on four factors:
- Star Fleet Battles is a reasonably good game, though I remain unconvinced that all those millions of Captain's Log supplements are really necessary.
- They have a licence to do Star Trek stuff, which means they have a big fat audience for their material.
- Their licence is, in many respects, incredibly generous. They're not allowed to incorporate official Trek stuff from after the original series and the cartoon, but aside from that they've never appeared to have struggled with royalty payments (do they even pay royalties on the licence?) and have more or less stated outright that the licence is never going away. I can only assume they managed to pick up the licence at a time when the IP owners didn't expect to do very much else with Trek - probably before Paramount got their hands on the IP because I can't imagine their lawyers letting such a generous licence slide.
- Within what restrictions the licence does place on them, they've managed to do interesting things. They're essentially running an alternate Trek universe which includes all the stuff from TOS and the cartoon plus heaps more stuff besides. I'm sure a certain proportion of the people who buy their products are Trek fans who are lukewarm about the wargame (if not completely disinterested) who simply like the idea of seeing what ADB are doing in this variant timeline of theirs.
Isn't this because the license is based on the Starfleet Technical Manual book that came out in the 70's? Not Paramount or the Star Trek IP proper?
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;621320I have zero interest in Nobilis since it's just In Nomine.
While there's some thematic overlap, the mechanics are pretty seriously different, enough to be worth a look. Nobilis doesn't even use dice, for starters, favoring instead a resource mechanic. Politics are a lot less important to the setting, and both the level and application of power is rather different, as are a good deal of the setting mechanics.
The twee writing is a bit unavoidable, though.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;621329Isn't this because the license is based on the Starfleet Technical Manual book that came out in the 70's? Not Paramount or the Star Trek IP proper?
it's a paramount license, but covers the tech manual too. it's a weird license, that's for sure:
Quote from: memory alphaWhile this is a Star Trek product officially licensed by Paramount Pictures, it is granted only a partial license, and as such cannot mention specifics of canon Trek in the games, save for basic information. This game does not use the name Star Trek in its title, but incorporates the design of the Constitution-class heavy cruiser and the uniforms, weapons, aliens, and some of the terminology of The Original Series era. Part of this license allows the game to depict information from the Star Fleet Technical Manual by Franz Joseph (such as the Federation dreadnought and Ptolemy tug) and also information from Star Trek: The Animated Series (including the Klingon projected stasis field and Larry Niven's rarely-seen Kzinti. It should be noted that the SFU Kzinti are very distinct from those of Larry Niven's works). This game's license forbids the release of characters, aliens, ships, or situations taken from any of the Star Trek movies or the Next Generation era series (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Star Trek: Voyager, Star Trek: Enterprise, etc.).
from: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Star_Fleet_Battles
The wikis don't give information, but I remember reading somewhere that somehow, the original license was for the technical manual, which was itself licensed from Paramount, and somehow a judge ruled that Paramount could not revoke that license directly, as it was an agreement made between the manual's author or publisher.
It's definitely not a standard license. Most licenses have term limits like a lease or something.
Quote from: JRT;621436The wikis don't give information, but I remember reading somewhere that somehow, the original license was for the technical manual, which was itself licensed from Paramount, and somehow a judge ruled that Paramount could not revoke that license directly, as it was an agreement made between the manual's author or publisher.
It's definitely not a standard license. Most licenses have term limits like a lease or something.
This is my recollection as well.
In other words, one of the most fortunate bastards in gaming.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Warthur;621288- Within what restrictions the licence does place on them, they've managed to do interesting things. They're essentially running an alternate Trek universe which includes all the stuff from TOS and the cartoon plus heaps more stuff besides. I'm sure a certain proportion of the people who buy their products are Trek fans who are lukewarm about the wargame (if not completely disinterested) who simply like the idea of seeing what ADB are doing in this variant timeline of theirs.
There's also a lot of oldboy Trek fans who are lukewarm about what Paramount's done with the property since. ;)
JG
I mention FFG at this point because:
Their editing is bollocks.
Their website is bollocks.
I think they undertake too much.
WFRP3e
Star Wars doesn't need 3 games, weird dice (which in principle I'm not offended by per se), and a paid for beta test.
Their lack of response to any such points is non existent.
Some of their books don't seem to make it across the pond.
To be fair though, their setting ideas for 40k are really quite good. The Koronus Expanse is excellent. Only War, which I now has, does seem, so far, to be a product of a more throughtful production.
And WotC for buying up Last Unicorn Games and shitting all over Dune: Chronicles of the Imperium.
And White Wolf for cancelling Adventure! (despite it's hamfisted dramatic editing rules).
And Games Workshop for turning it's back wholesale on it's non-warhammer market. Golden Heroes deserved better.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;621763And White Wolf for cancelling Adventure! (despite it's hamfisted dramatic editing rules).
I liked
Adventure! precisely because there was only one book for it and there was no obligation to run WW's typical Demigods-Play-The-Story-Without-You metaplot. ;)
JG
Mongoose's many-fonted, poorly outlined grey-on-grey 1e Eternal Champion line. Hawkmoon is just about readable, Elric is appalling.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;620982I have a new candidate.
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Amarillo Design Bureau (http://federationcommander.blogspot.com/2013/01/more-on-computer-apocalypse-and-recovery.html).
Oh my sweet lord. NT/Win2000/any frickin flavor of Linux you want. Toss in two drives, mirror the fuckers and use AppleTalk to connect. WTF. The OS's would be free and you'd spend more on two tanks of gas then the hardware. I got 4 old desktops in my garage that can do that
now.
Quote from: smiorgan;622091Mongoose's many-fonted, poorly outlined grey-on-grey 1e Eternal Champion line. Hawkmoon is just about readable, Elric is appalling.
How about MRQ1? I got the Deluxe book. Sure, there are a couple of issues with this iteration of the rules, but at least it should be a serviceable, complete-in-one-book game?
But when you crack it open, it's got grey stippling under the text on every page. Gaah! I think they were going for the look of finding vintage, discolored Judges Guild newsprint at the bottom of an old trunk.
Quote from: Killfuck Soulshitter;622102But when you crack it open, it's got grey stippling under the text on every page.
Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no.
Chill.
Black text, white page. Deep, dark blue "blood spatters" on many pages, each one literally unreadable. Not "hard to make out", not "gotta squint for a while", actually, really unreadable.
"I bought this why?"
Quote from: smiorgan;622091Mongoose's many-fonted, poorly outlined grey-on-grey 1e Eternal Champion line. Hawkmoon is just about readable, Elric is appalling.
At times I wonder if Mongoose is going to be doing anything more with Hawkmoon, besides the MRQ1 books from several years ago.
Is this the time to bring up the TSR World Builder's Guide that used light green text on white pages?
Quote from: J Arcane;622139Is this the time to bring up the TSR World Builder's Guide that used light green text on white pages?
Yes.
Or WotC's unreadable
Scourge of the Howling Horde adventure where the black typeface text is illegible against a photoshopped background of grey and dark grey handwriting.
A book with text on a background that it makes it near impossible to read is also something that really bugs me. There is a reason that the vast majority of books are black text on a white background, its easy to read.
Quote from: Shawn Merrow;622215A book with text on a background that it makes it near impossible to read is also something that really bugs me. There is a reason that the vast majority of books are black text on a white background, its easy to read.
Oh, theres was a really horrible one for this in the early aughts...something like The Legend of Zi-ran or something? Its system got great reviews online, but the book was practically unreadable.
The Technical stat in Star Wars d6. Technical is not a stat, dammit! I would have much preferred something like Academics or something.
Quote from: Daddy Warpig;622103Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no.
Chill.
Black text, white page. Deep, dark blue "blood spatters" on many pages, each one literally unreadable. Not "hard to make out", not "gotta squint for a while", actually, really unreadable.
"I bought this why?"
I'd say it was more of a mauve. Otherwise, agree.
Actually Chill did one thing really nicely - the introductory pamphlet in its own pocket inside the back cover of the HC.
But the blood splatter didn't even make sense. It's a supernatural investigation game, not splatterpunk.
Quote from: TristramEvans;622217Oh, theres was a really horrible one for this in the early aughts...something like The Legend of Zi-ran or something? Its system got great reviews online, but the book was practically unreadable.
Secret of Zir'an ?
I never read it, but I think I can see what you're talking about just from from the pdf preview on drivethru
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/2336/The-Secret-of-Zir'An-Core-Gamebook?it=1 )
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;622229Secret of Zir'an ?
I never read it, but I think I can see what you're talking about just from from the pdf preview on drivethru
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/2336/The-Secret-of-Zir'An-Core-Gamebook?it=1 )
Thats the one. I remember there was at least one chapter where the text was a highly stylized gold lettering on a white background with faded images behind it. You'd basically have to recopy the book after going through it with a magnifying glass to be able to reference the rules in play (this was in the same period Nobilis garnered a following and "pretty" rather than functional rulebooks was the order of the day.
Looking at that preview pdf it actually seems much better than the gamebook as I recall. I didnt realize it had come from White Wolf's Arthouse division. That probably should have told me something.
Quote from: ggroy;622120At times I wonder if Mongoose is going to be doing anything more with Hawkmoon, besides the MRQ1 books from several years ago.
I doubt it. Believe Lawrence Whitaker also name-checked Corum as an option once, and tha hasn't emerged either.
Although the 2e Elric stuff is hailed as the "first of a line of Eternal Champion books" for MRQ2, the branding is
Michael Moorcock's Elric of Melnibone as opposed to the Eternal Champion. That suggests Mongoose's priorities to me.
Shame, because I think both Hawkmoon and Corum are more accessible for games.
Quote from: J Arcane;622139Is this the time to bring up the TSR World Builder's Guide that used light green text on white pages?
Was this an issue only with some printings? The text in my copy is a perfectly readable dark blue.
Quote from: smiorgan;622091Mongoose's many-fonted, poorly outlined grey-on-grey 1e Eternal Champion line. Hawkmoon is just about readable, Elric is appalling.
They did the same thing with the Babylon 5/Traveller books - horrible fonts on horrible backgrounds. Two horribles isn't enough to describe it. Okay lets make it five: horrible.
On the other hand, there are terrible White Wolf books - terrible because they chose really nice fonts and heavy colors that can look brilliantly artistic on a physical book (or not, when the font makes it really hard to read), but just make for sluggish and hard to use PDFs.
Quote from: Lynn;622529They did the same thing with the Babylon 5/Traveller books - horrible fonts on horrible backgrounds. Two horribles isn't enough to describe it. Okay lets make it five: horrible.
On the other hand, there are terrible White Wolf books - terrible because they chose really nice fonts and heavy colors that can look brilliantly artistic on a physical book (or not, when the font makes it really hard to read), but just make for sluggish and hard to use PDFs.
Try
Serenity. :banghead:
Quote from: smiorgan;622333Shame, because I think both Hawkmoon and Corum are more accessible for games.
Maybe. But ELRIC is about 1000 times more recognizable. I mean really, if you're running a company and you have the choice to have the name and image of either Conan or Bran Mak Morn on the cover, which would you choose?
Superman, or matter-eater lad? I mean, I love Matter-Eater Lad, but I know supes is going to sell a hundred times more copies.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Lynn;622529They did the same thing with the Babylon 5/Traveller books - horrible fonts on horrible backgrounds. Two horribles isn't enough to describe it. Okay lets make it five: horrible.
On the other hand, there are terrible White Wolf books - terrible because they chose really nice fonts and heavy colors that can look brilliantly artistic on a physical book (or not, when the font makes it really hard to read), but just make for sluggish and hard to use PDFs.
Mage the Awakening is among the worst offenders of this.
Quote from: TristramEvans;622230I remember there was at least one chapter where the text was a highly stylized gold lettering on a white background with faded images behind it.
The problems were caused by a printing error with the silver ink used for the runes and symbols in the background. The effects actually vary heavily from one copy of
Zir'An to the next: for example, mine's perfectly legible, although I can see how the patterns might be a little distracting.The worst offender is probably Kah's sigil on page 133 which appears to be printed
over the text, but even that doesn't actually blot out anything.
Unless I'm missing something, though, the book doesn't use gold ink anywhere.
Mongoose for the terrible cover on SWN, poor work on the Traveller supplements (see the previous posts on this subject)
WOTC for 4th edition. they get a little forgiveness for putting the older stuff back into our hands/hard drives.
Palladium for the reasons already mentioned.
The fan boi / grrll ism that runs rampant at conventions. "your game sucks massively but mine was given by heaven" and "this convention should be all about us" types.
There are more I will post them as I think of them
Quote from: dungeon crawler;623063Mongoose for the terrible cover on SWN, poor work on the Traveller supplements (see the previous posts on this subject)
Just to pipe in, it wasn't Mongoose who asked for the new SWN cover or arranged to supply it. I didn't want buyers getting confused about the books and emailing me asking why the hardback they just bought was missing 40 pages, so I went out and hired a new cover for the Mongoose edition.
There are people who aren't fans of it, but now that I have both the original and the Mongoose cover hardbacks for sale on DTRPG, both with identical interior contents, I still sell 3 Mongoose-cover print copies for every 1 starfield-cover copies. I don't know why this is the case, but actual buyers don't seem to be shying away from it, to say the least.
Quote from: SineNomine;623073There are people who aren't fans of it, but now that I have both the original and the Mongoose cover hardbacks for sale on DTRPG, both with identical interior contents, I still sell 3 Mongoose-cover print copies for every 1 starfield-cover copies. I don't know why this is the case, but actual buyers don't seem to be shying away from it, to say the least.
I'll tell you why: the 40 more pages included. That's the reason.
What's interesting to me is that you are STILL making a quarter of your sales on the star field cover, and that tells me that the cover art does matter to move products effectively. Just my 2 coppers though. I might be wrong.
Quote from: Benoist;623078I'll tell you why: the 40 more pages included. That's the reason.
What's interesting to me is that you are STILL making a quarter of your sales on the star field cover, and that tells me that the cover art does matter to move products effectively. Just my 2 coppers though. I might be wrong.
Normally I'd think that as well, but when I put the starfield cover back up, I redid the interior to have the exact same contents as the Mongoose version. So you can basically buy the book in either cover, depending on which you like best- and the Mongoose cover is still outselling the starfield.
Quote from: dungeon crawler;623063"your game sucks massively but mine was given by heaven"
Well, now that's just plain common sense. My favorite game
was given by heaven, so by extension all other games suck. QED.
(Yes, I'm kidding. :teehee:)
Quote from: SineNomine;623080Normally I'd think that as well, but when I put the starfield cover back up, I redid the interior to have the exact same contents as the Mongoose version. So you can basically buy the book in either cover, depending on which you like best- and the Mongoose cover is still outselling the starfield.
I did not know that. Thanks for pointing it out. I just looked at DriveThru and, though the update of the book is made explicit and visible, one version (Mongoose) is dubbed "Stars Without Number: Core Edition" and the other (Star field) "Stars Without Number: Free Edition". These are the respective titles showing up when you make a search on the site. That difference might be playing a role in the initial clicks to have a look as well.
Quote from: Benoist;623163one version (Mongoose) is dubbed "Stars Without Number: Core Edition" and the other (Star field) "Stars Without Number: Free Edition".
I've been reading the back and forth, but I still don't know: is there now a difference between the two? If so, what?
Quote from: Daddy Warpig;623166I've been reading the back and forth, but I still don't know: is there now a difference between the two? If so, what?
The free version only exists in PDF now, and lacks 40 pages that cover mechs, AIs, and planetary society creation that appear in the core version. I wrote those as a bonus back when the Mongoose version first came out to help give people a reason to pick it up, but they're not necessary pages if you've no interest in those topics.
Quote from: SineNomine;623168The free version only exists in PDF now, and lacks 40 pages that cover mechs, AIs, and planetary society creation that appear in the core version. I wrote those as a bonus back when the Mongoose version first came out to help give people a reason to pick it up, but they're not necessary pages if you've no interest in those topics.
Thank you, sir. Congrats on the success of SWN!
Do you think the starfield might appeal more to a certain type of old-school gamer, while the other cover is attracting people outside the inner core of the OSR? That could explain the difference between the voiced popularity of the starfield cover versus the sales walloping its taking from the other cover.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;623544Do you think the starfield might appeal more to a certain type of old-school gamer, while the other cover is attracting people outside the inner core of the OSR? That could explain the difference between the voiced popularity of the starfield cover versus the sales walloping its taking from the other cover.
I'd think it possible, but in truth, I'm betting it comes down to some kind of marketing esoterica- maybe the starfield has less linkage, or buyers are instinctively moving from the free page to the core page due to cues about upgrading, or some other subtle reason. Marketing is probably my weakest suit, as it qualifies more as a grim duty to me than anything I enjoy in any way, shape or form. That costs me directly in terms of sales, of course, but some forms of suffering just aren't worth it at RPG publisher pay rates.
Quote from: gattsuru;618493"Judgement proof" isn't in regards to obviousness of guilt. You can have a signed confession and a dozen eyewitnesses and still be judgement proof. It's a question of a) whether you can prove enough damages to not waste a court's time, and b) whether a guy running out of the internet equivalent of a parent's basement and Kinko's has the spare cash to pay you those non-time-wasting damages. It's not like we're talking a big corporation (or possibly even a corporation: Outlaw Press Inc doesn't show up in a quick search) with a lot of spare cash in the bank.
Copyright violation comes with statutory damages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_damages_for_copyright_infringement). So, it's automatic assumed fixed damages, based on the judge.
Judgements stay with someone for a decade, and can usually be renewed for another decade. You can attach bank accounts, houses, cars, paychecks, tax returns, all sorts of stuff, until the judgement is fulfilled with interest.
Quote from: Mistwell;623649Copyright violation comes with statutory damages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_damages_for_copyright_infringement). So, it's automatic assumed fixed damages, based on the judge.
Only in some situations -- it's possible some of the artworks were registered with the copyright office, such as the ones licensed to Blizzard, but a lot of artists don't and thus aren't eligible for statutory damages. ((It takes 35-70 USD/registration with the copyright office, although some artists say you can do multiple works per registration.))
QuoteJudgements stay with someone for a decade, and can usually be renewed for another decade. You can attach bank accounts, houses, cars, paychecks, tax returns, all sorts of stuff, until the judgement is fulfilled with interest.
Generally, yes, although there are caveats (it's often hard or impossible to attach judgement to primary residences, depending on state, and there are hardship limits for income or car garnishment). They add to the cost too, however, either in court fees or by selling the judgment to an enforcer.
It's possible that someone might well be able to make it work -- I'm only a layperson, after all, and I don't have any real good insight to the situation. It's just worth understanding why it's not always easy to do.
With so many free or cheap .pdf role-playing games available online, I often base my initial "yay" or "nay" level of interest on the character sheet.
I look at the traits, skills, etc. and figure out from there if the game is too complex, too similar to something I already own and so on.
A character sheet isn't always a reflection of a games quality but it often impacts my likelihood of buying more than the cover art.
Quote from: The Bronze Falcon;623760A character sheet isn't always a reflection of a games quality but it often impacts my likelihood of buying more than the cover art.
I certainly don't think it's unreasonable to do so. After all, the character sheet is arguably a player's most important tool for their interactions with a game, and if it's a pain to look stuff up on it or otherwise difficult to work with the character sheet then that has a direct impact with a player's contribution.
I really like Lamentations of the Flame Princess and James Raggi seems like a nice guy but he just seems to come across as arrogant or douchy when I listen to audio interviews with him. Maybe it's just me..
Quote from: gattsuru;618493"Judgement proof" isn't in regards to obviousness of guilt. You can have a signed confession and a dozen eyewitnesses and still be judgement proof. It's a question of a) whether you can prove enough damages to not waste a court's time, and b) whether a guy running out of the internet equivalent of a parent's basement and Kinko's has the spare cash to pay you those non-time-wasting damages. It's not like we're talking a big corporation (or possibly even a corporation: Outlaw Press Inc doesn't show up in a quick search) with a lot of spare cash in the bank.
Could somebody become "judgement proof" by being completely broke with no viable assets and filing chapter 7 bankruptcy?
(Such as the recent case of Casey Anthony filing for bankruptcy (http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/27/justice/casey-anthony-bankruptcy/index.html). Allegedly she only had $1000 in personal property, and something like $800,000 in liabilities).
Quote from: ggroy;623933Could somebody become "judgement proof" by being completely broke with no viable assets and filing chapter 7 bankruptcy?
(Such as the recent case of Casey Anthony filing for bankruptcy (http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/27/justice/casey-anthony-bankruptcy/index.html). Allegedly she only had $1000 in personal property, and something like $800,000 in liabilities).
Yes a civil judgement can be included in BK. But only a BK that happens after the judgement, not before.
Wonder if the guy running Outlaw Press is just waiting for the day where his ass is sued up the wazoo with zillion dollar final judgements. Before the creditors attempt to start collecting, he spends whatever cash he has left on marijuana, coke and hookers. Then files for chapter 7 bankruptcy.
A few years later, continues the same shenanigans with a new company called Outlaw2 Press. :rolleyes:
Quote from: gattsuru;623691It's possible that someone might well be able to make it work -- I'm only a layperson, after all, and I don't have any real good insight to the situation. It's just worth understanding why it's not always easy to do.
Pretty much.
If you have a modest budget, you might be able to make the judgement stick, but it might not be worth the investment.
If you're a big fish, you can spend the money and get the job done, but you look like an appalling bully doing it. Though I would be fall-on-my-ass astonished if Flying Buffalo or Fiery Dragon or Ken had the funds on hand to burn trying to get a judgement enforced.
Quote from: Warthur;623968Though I would be fall-on-my-ass astonished if Flying Buffalo or Fiery Dragon or Ken had the funds on hand to burn trying to get a judgement enforced.
Are these companies like one-man operations these days?
Necro-ing this thread to say that I now have bought a copy of Cartoon Action Hour (albeit with massive Black Friday discount) thus slowly working my way passed my irrational hang ups.
There is hope for us all.
Quote from: Soylent Green;585489Petty? Okay here's petty.
I have not purchased (yet) "Dogs of W*A*R", the Barbarians of Lemuria modern day spin-of because of its terrible cover.
I have not purchased Fate variant "Awesome Adventures" because of it's title.
I have not purchased "Cartoon Action Hour" because even if my games all play like Saturday morning cartoons I don't necessarily want to advertise that fact.
The thing is when I buy a new game I am looking to "buy" the players' goodwill and generate a bit of buzz. I could persuade my players to try any of the above systems and given time win them over. What I would not get is that initial player buy-in and full-hearted commitment to their characters that I might get with a system that inspired more confidence (through reputation, personal experience or just production values).
And the catch is that player buy-in and commitment are at least as important than the rules themselves to the success of a game, if not more. So you get a viscous circle. The players start off skittish, the player's attitude, however subtle, has impact on the quality of the game so that at the end of the session the player's initial misgivings about the game are confirmed.
So yes, it's petty, but it's also pragmatic.
You may now mock me.
Quote from: Soylent Green;712459Necro-ing this thread...
Ah, fresh necro-thread!
Speaking of necro, here's a petty hangup for me: I despise undead. Just sick and tired of them. I was already sick and tired of them years ago, and now that zombies and vampires are
everywhere in geek and mainstream media I'm an unhappy serf.
I will dismiss everything else a setting has to offer if I sense it places too much emphasis on undead.
Quote from: Soylent Green;712459Necro-ing this thread to say that I now have bought a copy of Cartoon Action Hour (albeit with massive Black Friday discount) thus slowly working my way passed my irrational hang ups.
There is hope for us all.
You should still check out "Dogs of W*A*R" just ignore the cover, tear it off, or don't print it with the PDF what ever. Its a fun little game that emulates the genre very well.
If I remember right Paramount sold the "rights in perpetuity" for the Star Fleet Technical Manual, far reaching rights at that. Why? Because they considered Star Trek to be a dead and childish project with no residual value.
So yes, to my understanding ADB only pays royalties to the liscence holder and he only paid his royalties once. That's all hearsay but it seems credible to me, before Startrek's amazing comeback as a cultural icon nobody would have even considered it possible.
Anyhow, people underate Palladium's original system. It was fantastic. It was only with the original Heroes Unlimited that it jumped the shark.
Personally I won't buy anything from Troll Lord, WotC, or Paizo because their games are based on D&D. How's that for petty?
I despise the white-knighting political correctness in some RPG books, especially using 'she' as a default pronoun.
White wolf was the first and worst offender, but it's annoying enough to me that I put Numenera back on the shelf because of it.
Why ruin a game by turning it into a pathetic commercial for your favorite SJW cause? Maddening.
"Rework an adventure"? lol
What a load of BS
Quote from: The Traveller;585488Do people really make buying decisions based on personalities? I couldn't care less who produces a product as long as the product is good. Same with music. Then you get to the complex conundrum of changing personalities, will you burn all the books created by a certain writer if he joins the KKK and gets a Hitler tache tattoo after a lifetime of social service?
My favourite example here is Charles Dickens, by day proponent of improving the conditions for the impoverished of London, by night a genocidal lunatic that wanted to personally murder all the "Hindoos".
Frankly I don't care, as long as I don't feel they are pushing an agenda through their work, that irritates me. Admittedly I would have a problem with the radical ink klansman above, but that's an edge case.
If a writer is rotten then Im not putting money in their pocket no matter how good the game or book is. (Or whomever is making a buck off it now.) I've sure as hell severed connections with artists who turned scammers. I dont care how good their art is. They are running sympathy scams and flat out robbery.
I turned down a gig doing an RPG for Stephen King. Think about that one kids.
Dont think I've ever passed on a book for trivial matters. But have passed on games because the company behind it is bad.
I stopped buying Games Workshop material once discovered just how horribly they have been treating their shop workers and the utterly reprehensible practices against FLGS shops to drive them out of business, and the last few years the effective raping of Australian FLGS and customers with even more rampant gouging than usual.
White Wolf I stopped buying from as they were jerks. No. Really. And found out theyd had their hand in my cookie jar AND didnt credit me. And their sideline books tend to be garbage. "Oh the rules arent in the book. The players will make that stuff up for us."
Havent touched anything from Sanguine since things went to hell with that publisher. Their attitude is... not good.
"Wheres the species creation rules mentioned on the back of the book?"
"Oh the players can make that stuff up."
"What are the rules for mounts?" "oh I cant tell you that. You will have to buy the expansion book." the years OOP expansion book.
And other stunts.
SJG is really pushing it for me with some of their stunts over the years.
Well. Ok. I did pass on the D&D 3e/3.5 because of the awful anorexics R us art in the Monster manual and the artists inability to draw some creatures. Though I'll blame some of that on the art director.
Bad art direction will irk me more than most else.
Friend of mine wont touch anything from FFG because of something that the company did or does on the forums. Not sure of the details. But they sure arent buying from them again.
I've heard people quit off Green Ronin after bad experiences with their staff.
I think at some point sooner or later every company is going to turn someone off somehow. Either directly or indirectly. Sometimes intentionally, often though not. Least I hope not.
What will set me off on one game may be blase on the next, and someone else wouldnt see a problem at all. Sometimes because a publisher or designer is very Jeckyll/Hyde. Palladium is the posterchild for that.
Quote from: TristramEvans;712486"Rework an adventure"? lol
What a load of BS
Double lol for "protect their innocence". Because apparently, whilst it's perfectly possible to play heterosexual NPCs in a PG-friendly manner, it's impossible to present gay NPCs without explicit hard fucking.
Quote from: Warthur;712494Double lol for "protect their innocence". Because apparently, whilst it's perfectly possible to play heterosexual NPCs in a PG-friendly manner, it's impossible to present gay NPCs without explicit hard fucking.
(http://www.pitch.com/binary/ca1d/think_of_the_children.jpg)
Quote from: AaronBrown99;712479I stopped buying paizo adventure paths because they kept pushing gay npcs. I run games for my kids, and I don't like having to rework an adventure just to protect their innocence.
Why ruin a game by turning it into a pathetic commercial for your favorite SJW cause? Maddening.
You boycott a company simply because they admit a certain large group of human beings exists?
You're not as different from the Pale Lavender Correctness Cadre as you would like to believe.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;712498You boycott a company simply because they admit a certain large group of human beings exists?
3 percent of the population is hardly a large group.
It's the presenting it as normal behavior that is the issue, not recognizing their existence.
It's also not so dramatic as a 'boycott', I said I stopped buying adventure paths.
Quote from: AaronBrown99;7125043 percent of the population is hardly a large group.
It's the presenting it as normal behavior that is the issue, not recognizing their existence.
It's also not so dramatic as a 'boycott', I said I stopped buying adventure paths.
I can't quite agree with your angle here. Natural biological traits (such as homosexuality or gender dysprosium), shouldn't be treated as "abnormal" behavior, simply because they are less common.
There are far fewer species of mammals than there are species of insects... I wouldn't call mammals "abnormal".
Now, if you had said that you do not feel like explaining a subject that has this level of complexity while playing a game with your kids... I can respect that. It's a complex and serious subject to drop into the middle of a "let's find magic treasure, I'm an Elf!" game.
I can definitely agree that there might be much better context in which to address this with your children.
Also, I respect your right, as a parent, to teach your children what, how and when you like.
So, I disagree with your specific argument... but I do believe there are several valid reasons for you to take the stance you have.
it seems like every few months we get a "new" poster espousing their disgust with gay people.
Quote from: AaronBrown99;7125043 percent of the population is hardly a large group.
It's the presenting it as normal behavior that is the issue, not recognizing their existence.
I live and work in a conservative small city of about 20K, and even here I interact with gays or lesbians in some way almost every day.
You want to "Protect" your kids from knowing or befriending that "3%" (ha)... well, good luck with that.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;712508it seems like every few months we get a "new" poster espousing their disgust with gay people.
Whoa there, nobody said that. I find acts objectionable, not people.
Some might disagree, but there's an enormous difference.
Quote from: AaronBrown99;712513Whoa there, nobody said that. I find acts objectionable, not people.
Some might disagree, but there's an enormous difference.
When you say you refuse to buy products because they have gay NPCs, and imply that such people are abnormal and you need to protect the innocence of your children?
Nah, not so much of a difference.
Quote from: AaronBrown993 percent of the population is hardly a large group.
3% of the population is an
enormous group encompassing millions of people.
Also, this number is rather conservative. About 10-20% of people report having had some same-sex attraction and/or sexual contact in their lifetime, even if they don't identify as gay.
Quote from: AaronBrown99Whoa there, nobody said that. I find acts objectionable, not people.
Does the adventure necessitate describing homosexual acts? Or does just depict homosexual NPCs? I would strongly suspect the latter. I haven't read every Pathfinder adventure path but I doubt that there's a lot of boxed text describing gay sex. If the mere presence of gay NPCs is what disturbs you, then you
are finding "people" objectionable rather than acts.
I can see the argument to avoid material that's sexually explicit in a game for young children, with on-screen sex or adventures specifically set in brothels or harems or something. But if the mere presence of NPCs who happen to be homosexual is what's bothering you because you don't want your children (children old enough to pretend to be butchering Kobolds with longswords and burning Goblins alive with spells) to know that gay people exist, then, yeah, that's
ipso facto admitting that it's fundamentally the people and not the acts they perform you have a problem with.
Of course it's your prerogative to game with whatever products you want and to raise your children as you please, but your reasoning here is suspect to me.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;712508it seems like every few months we get a "new" poster espousing their disgust with gay people.
First port of call for those banned on RPGnet. The price of allowing relatively free speech.
Goes both ways though, so the stupid doesn't go unchallenged.
Quote from: TristramEvans;712522First port of call for those banned on RPGnet. The price of allowing relatively free speech.
Goes both ways though, so the stupid doesn't go unchallenged.
oh, I know. And I'm not worried about them not being called out here either. Just sometimes the timing of it all causes my suspicion meter to tick
What a fucking lintbrain.
3% of six billion isn't a large group?
Anyhow, it's not too hard to ignore the relationship status of npcs in an adventure or gender flip them to your advantage or re write them to suit your needs.
Mind you, in my own "among the beautiful creatures" rpg there are explictally no gay characters. After all, amorphous shape shifters are never of any gender or orientation they don't want to be.
Quote from: AaronBrown99;712513Whoa there, nobody said that. I find acts objectionable, not people.
Some might disagree, but there's an enormous difference.
How many homosexual sex acts are Paizo putting in their adventure paths these days?
Come on man, there's no point in debating with someone who has their head that far up their ass.
Quote from: Warthur;712532How many homosexual sex acts are Paizo putting in their adventure paths these days?
By some estimations, far too many. Looks like whoever is upset by this ought to consider what music, films, books and services `in general` they use. Or they can just get over it and move on with their life...
On to petty annoying things: I won`t buy or play games with feats. Mainly because I have an issue with the word "Feat". It really pisses me off. I think I have played other games with similar mechanical things in them, but they weren`t called feats, so that was okay.
Quote from: BarefootGaijin;712541On to petty annoying things: I won`t buy or play games with feats. Mainly because I have an issue with the word "Feat". It really pisses me off. I think I have played other games with similar mechanical things in them, but they weren`t called feats, so that was okay.
Know the feeling. Something about feats in D&D just... bugs me. Not sure what though really.
I'll try them though just to see em in action and judge for myself.
Quote from: Warthur;712494Double lol for "protect their innocence". Because apparently, whilst it's perfectly possible to play heterosexual NPCs in a PG-friendly manner, it's impossible to present gay NPCs without explicit hard fucking.
Some people can't imagine gay NPCs being in a game without it leading to fireside fistings while making camp.
Which does lead one to wonder why cocks weigh so heavily on their minds.
Quote from: Omega;712545Know the feeling. Something about feats in D&D just... bugs me. Not sure what though really.
I'll try them though just to see em in action and judge for myself.
Feats for things that shouldn't be feats are what bugs me, but it hasn't deterred me from playing a game.
Some really test that patience though.
Alternative sexuality and feats. Looks like it's time for a Book of Erotic Fantasy campaign.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;712553Alternative sexuality and feats. Looks like it's time for a Book of Erotic Fantasy campaign.
JG
Alternative Erotic Footplay?
Quote from: Omega;712572Alternative Erotic Footplay?
Don't know about you, but I have a custom Footsie Cleave feat so that PCs in my game can subtly hit on more than one character at a time.
Quote from: David Johansen;712472Anyhow, people underate Palladium's original system. It was fantastic. It was only with the original Heroes Unlimited that it jumped the shark.
IMO the palladium systems worked fine at the scale where active defense was a choice that cost you your action. So even though tmnt and robotech came out after heroes unlimited, they played just fine. Once you got free dodge and multiple actions it quickly turned into a mess.
I don't think pally "jumped the shark" so to speak with HU. A few books into Rift, ok I'll give you that. But it was/is maddingly simple to abuse the system. Especially if combining different books. Example, way back in the day we mashed NaSS with HU. I had a mutant/dedicated martial artist. Alter physical structure: Metal, and wall crawling, along with 3 different martial arts. Talk about soaking up damage and fucking shit up with your bare hands. He was the main man of mayhem.:)
The reason I point to Heroes Unlimited is the introduction of the "physical skills" Which IRRC were even worse in their first incarnation. A terrible, cludgy, inelegant rule that presaged everything that was to come.
Quote from: David Johansen;712608The reason I point to Heroes Unlimited is the introduction of the "physical skills" Which IRRC were even worse in their first incarnation. A terrible, cludgy, inelegant rule that presaged everything that was to come.
OK, I can see that
Oh yeah, Pally has always been trivial to "cheat". I actually almost consider that a feature. You can't fool yourself that your vampire/ninja/psychic/mage/half dragon/glitterboy is anything other than a 14 year old's power fantasy.
Quote from: Omega;712490If a writer is rotten then Im not putting money in their pocket no matter how good the game or book is. (Or whomever is making a buck off it now.) I've sure as hell severed connections with artists who turned scammers. I dont care how good their art is. They are running sympathy scams and flat out robbery.
What about derivative works, ever played Call of Cthulhu? Take a good look at some of HP Lovecraft's attitudes to race. It's a more complex picture than it seems on the face of it, and does not lend itself to clean delineations.
Quote from: Omega;712490I turned down a gig doing an RPG for Stephen King. Think about that one kids.
What did Stephen King do wrong?
Quote from: Omega;712490Sometimes because a publisher or designer is very Jeckyll/Hyde. Palladium is the posterchild for that.
Again, how did Palladium rub you the wrong way? I know they have their critics, especially online, but almost all of this criticism appears to revolve around people who want the game system updated and aren't getting their own way.
Quote from: Dunnagin;712506I can't quite agree with your angle here. Natural biological traits (such as homosexuality or gender dysprosium), shouldn't be treated as "abnormal" behavior, simply because they are less common.
I stopped buying Paizo Adventure Paths because they kept pushing redheaded NPCs. I run games for my kids, and I don't have to rework an adventure just to protect their innocence.
Why ruin a game by turning it into a pathetic commercial for your pro-terrorist cause? Maddening.
(I love the fact that he's edited his original message to make it a complaint about something even more absurd, but then left his subsequent defense of his original post intact; thus making it look as if he believes only 3% of the world's population is female.)
Quote from: Evansheer;712547Some people can't imagine gay NPCs being in a game without it leading to fireside fistings while making camp.
Eh, I don't think it's so much that as that there are gamers who are dead certain that queerness will not only rub off on them, but that everyone around them will be able to
tell at a casual glance.
It reminds me of the playground of Quincy Elementary School in the 1960s, and kids screeching about cooties.
I usually try to get a pdf before buying to see if a game is worth getting a hard copy before hand, if the pdf is way too pricey, more than a $10-15 preview, then I won't buy the game at all, I don't care how great or over rated or how much the fan boys push it. Unless its something I was able to purview at the local bookstore or game shop/comic shop before hand, I won't touch it.
Quote from: Evansheer;712547Some people can't imagine gay NPCs being in a game without it leading to fireside fistings while making camp.
Which does lead one to wonder why cocks weigh so heavily on their minds.
Well that's a rather unfair remark, don't you think? I mean, what images do you conjure up when I say 'albino' or 'wine connoisseur'?
We are talking about a group of people who prefer to identify themselves by their sexual identity. They
want you to know they only want make out and have sex with the same gender. It is important to them that you recognize their sexual identity.
I'm surprised you won't admit that when somebody states they are gay, queer, lesbian, the eventual image that comes to mind isn't someone crocheting or doing a crossword puzzle. Let's be fair to both sides here.
Quote from: Punch and Pie;712804Well that's a rather unfair remark, don't you think? I mean, what images do you conjure up when I say 'albino' or 'wine connoisseur'?
We are talking about a group of people who prefer to identify themselves by their sexual identity. They want you to know they only want make out and have sex with the same gender. It is important to them that you recognize their sexual identity.
I'm surprised you won't admit that when somebody states they are gay, queer, lesbian, the eventual image that comes to mind isn't someone crocheting or doing a crossword puzzle. Let's be fair to both sides here.
Yeah, I gotta call bullshit on this. When a straight person tells me they are straight, or "this is my boyfriend/girlfriend/husband/wife", I don't suddenly start picturing them fucking.
If someone says they are gay, and you immediately start picturing that? That's a you problem, not a them problem.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;712805Yeah, I gotta call bullshit on this. When a straight person tells me they are straight, or "this is my boyfriend/girlfriend/husband/wife", I don't suddenly start picturing them fucking.
No, you don't and nor do I because it is ingrained.
QuoteIf someone says they are gay, and you immediately start picturing that? That's a you problem, not a them problem.
I guess you missed the word 'eventual'.
I have to admit I was very surprised and frankly disappointed to read the Paizo threads on this. But I mean is the message homophobic, or is it just people who feel their hobby is being shanghaied into a vehicle for a broader social movement? I mean that's similar to what has caused so much trouble for us right here.
I'm not misogynistic in any way, shape, means or form, but I don't like the SJW brigade ramping up hysteria to turn the games I play into town criers for their platform, and I'll speak out against it.
Is this just more of the same? Or are there really a higher percentage of vocal homophobes in the Paizo community? My sceptical spidey sense is troubling me.
Quote from: The Traveller;712810I have to admit I was very surprised and frankly disappointed to read the Paizo threads on this. But I mean is the message homophobic, or is it just people who feel their hobby is being shanghaied into a vehicle for a broader social movement? I mean that's similar to what has caused so much trouble for us right here.
I'm not misogynistic in any way, shape, means or form, but I don't like the SJW brigade ramping up hysteria to turn the games I play into town criers for their platform, and I'll speak out against it.
Is this just more of the same? Or are there really a higher percentage of vocal homophobes in the Paizo community? My sceptical spidey sense is troubling me.
I haven't seen those Piazo adventure paths myself, and if they are nothing more than a SJW speaking platform, that would suck. However, I think it's less of that and more of homophobes throwing a tissy fit because an adventure happens to include an NPC who is gay. I very much doubt that there is implied gay sex included in these adventures.
Quote from: Punch and PieWe are talking about a group of people who prefer to identify themselves by their sexual identity. They want you to know they only want make out and have sex with the same gender. It is important to them that you recognize their sexual identity.
Not necessarily - the NPCs may not announce themselves as "gay." They may just have a same-sex partner as part of their back-story and such. Some concrete examples would be good to discuss here; does anyone have any particular NPCs in mind?
In real life, most gay people I know don't go around announcing their sexual identity to everyone they meet. I've met a number of gay people who find events like pride and other "showy" demonstrations of sexual identity unecessary, for example.
Quote from: Steerpike;712815In real life, most gay people I know don't go around announcing their sexual identity to everyone they meet. I've met a number of gay people who find events like pride and other "showy" demonstrations of sexual identity unecessary, for example.
Dan Savage once jokingly explained that gay people are socially retarded by about 6+ years. College is like middle school as far as dating and relationships goes. Even in the new world where a teen can come out, they still probably don't live in an area where there are enough other gay kids their age to actually date. That means that many gay people under 30 have the emotional intelligence of a teenager with regards to appropriate sexual behavior in public
Quote from: therealjcm;712823Dan Savage once jokingly explained that gay people are socially retarded by about 6+ years. College is like middle school as far as dating and relationships goes. Even in the new world where a teen can come out, they still probably don't live in an area where there are enough other gay kids their age to actually date. That means that many gay people under 30 have the emotional intelligence of a teenager with regards to appropriate sexual behavior in public
Without proper citations and references to back up that statement, things like that are asking for trouble regardless of how valid it sounds. Joking or otherwise. It sounds like bait for a good old fashioned forum clash!
Won`t somebody think of the poor homeschooled heterosexuals, being emotionally stunted by their parents and under-privileged circumstance!
If dating frequency led to emotional intelligence we'd have some goddamn genius hookers on our streets.
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;712495(http://www.pitch.com/binary/ca1d/think_of_the_children.jpg)
...but not in that way! Stop thinking of the children that way!
Quote from: The Traveller;712810I have to admit I was very surprised and frankly disappointed to read the Paizo threads on this. But I mean is the message homophobic, or is it just people who feel their hobby is being shanghaied into a vehicle for a broader social movement?
It's just plain old-fashioned homophobia rearing it's old ugly head again. There have always been gay people and creatures, it's evidently a perfectly normal thing to happen. Put life forms in a setting, some of 'em are going to be gay.
Get over it, AaronBrown99.
"Well I'm not going to pander to these 'social justice warriors', blahblahblah" is just a tedious excuse to keep on being a cunt, based on there being certain people who take their pet causes to the EXTREME, or at the very least are just being cunts and claiming it's all because of THEIR CAUSE. Pro tip: there are people like that in, or at least claiming to be in, pretty much every cause. They don't invalidate the cause in any way.
Quote from: Ladybird;712852Get over it, AaronBrown99.
I am, by voting with my wallet.
Quote from: therealcjmThat means that many gay people under 30 have the emotional intelligence of a teenager with regards to appropriate sexual behavior in public.
There may be an element of truth to this (it makes sense that if you grow up in a society that ostracizes you and teaches you to deny your desires, it might not be psychologically healthy), but I think this is changing, becoming less and less the norm. At least, that's my experience. As society continues to become less bigoted, same-sex desire ceases to be stigmatized, and homophobia is fully recognized as being equivalent to racism or sexism, things will get better.
Quote from: AaronBrown99I am, by voting with my wallet.
Which is absolutely your prerogative, though you still haven't convinced me your decision isn't based on prejudice against gay people, despite your emphatic proclamations that you dislike acts, not individuals.
Quote from: Steerpike;712854Which is absolutely your prerogative, though you still haven't convinced me your decision isn't based on prejudice against gay people, despite your emphatic proclamations that you dislike acts, not individuals.
Fine.
This is a thread about things that annoy about RPG books etc and not one where I'm trying to convince anyone of anything.
Which is fine, but presumably we're allowed to discuss those things that annoy us. It's a discussion thread - you know, for discussing. And sometimes disagreeing.
You said you didn't like the gay NPCs in Pathfinder products. To me this suggests you're a prejudiced person. Not buying an RPG product because it has gay NPCs, to me, is basically the equivalent not buying a product because it shows women as capable warriors or has too many black people in it. It's just simple bigotry.
When called on your prejudice, you insisted that you disliked acts, not individuals. I'm challenging this assertion. You can refuse to answer and thus admit that you're a de facto bigot. Again, your prerogative.
Or we could talk about games!
Jesus, people.
Quote from: VectorSigmaOr we could talk about games!
Jesus, people.
Agreed. I prefer it when people check their prejudices at the door; but if they're going to start dragging them into the conversation, I reserve the right to give them a piece of my mind. In my opinion, anyone who has the temerity and poor taste to voice irrational, backwards aversions of the sort that have been expressed deserves to be called on their discriminatory remarks, unless they're obviously trolling.
Quote from: Steerpike;712856To me this suggests you're a prejudiced person.
Your not accepting my stated explanation is your issue, not mine.
QuoteNot buying an RPG product because it has gay NPCs, to me, is basically the equivalent not buying a product because it shows women as capable warriors or has too many black people in it. It's just simple bigotry.
You and I clearly have differing opinions on this subject. I stated emphatically that I want to avoid discussions of alternative lifestyles with my kids. I also stated that I follow the teaching 'love the sinner, hate the sin.' if you refuse to accept that, that's not my problem.
QuoteWhen called on your prejudice, you insisted that you disliked acts, not individuals. I'm challenging this assertion. You can refuse to answer and thus admit that you're a de facto bigot. Again, your prerogative.
I refuse to answer for the same reason I redacted my initial post. This isn't the place to have this discussion, and I want to talk about games, not explain my personal beliefs or reasons to you. You're the one who started throwing out labels and name calling, not me.
If anyone here is prejudiced and bigoted towards those who think differently than others, it's you.
As I said before, I'm not going to continue to disrupt the discussion with this off topic tangent, and I apologize to the forum for my inflammatory post.
Quote from: AaronBrown99Your not accepting my stated explanation is your issue, not mine.
As I said, you can feel free to ignore me and essentially admit to being prejudiced towards sexual minorities.
Quote from: AaronBrown99If anyone here is prejudiced and bigoted towards those who think differently than others, it's you.
I'm judging you on your statements, your words, not an aspect of your identity over which you have no control. Judgment is not prejudice. You're right that I don't respect all forms of thinking. I hold anti-semites in deep contempt, for example. I think those who oppose inter-racial relationships are racists. I think that those who believe women should stay in the kitchen and shouldn't vote are sexists. And I think those that express blatant homophobia are homophobes. I deeply object to all of these beliefs, and I don't see how this makes me prejudiced.
It would be prejudice if I judged you a homophobe based on your race, religion, sex, age, etc. I'm not (I don't even know enough about you to be prejudiced). I'm judging you a homophobe because of your homophobic remarks. Your comments suggest you are literally afraid of gay people and of your children being aware that, yes, gay people exist.
I think your statement that you "hate the sinner not the sin" is inconsistent with your objection to the mere presence of gay NPCs in a Pathfinder product. If you only find certain sexual acts inappropriate rather than people, you would have no objection to the presence of said people in the product itself. It's obvious the mere presence of an NPC (that is, a make-believe person) who challenges your rigid definition of what constitutes "normal" deeply threatens you, and that you believe mere knowledge of same-sex desire is contaminating and dangerous for children.
I think this is a relevant topic and not one entirely divorced from gaming. However, I've said my piece on the matter. In the interests of civility and continuing productive conversation, I'm certainly happy to drop the topic; and if I exacerbated contention by calling things as I saw them and breeding further animosity, I apologize.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;712729I stopped buying Paizo Adventure Paths because they kept pushing redheaded NPCs. I run games for my kids, and I don't have to rework an adventure just to protect their innocence.
Why ruin a game by turning it into a pathetic commercial for your pro-terrorist cause? Maddening.
(I love the fact that he's edited his original message to make it a complaint about something even more absurd, but then left his subsequent defense of his original post intact; thus making it look as if he believes only 3% of the world's population is female.)
That made me laugh :P
I used to have red hair!
(I'm gray now, don't be afraid)
Quote from: Steerpike;712863As I said, you can feel free to ignore me and essentially admit to being prejudiced towards sexual minorities.
Sexual preferences are not the same as inborn traits such as sex or race.
QuoteYour comments suggest you are literally afraid of gay people and of your children being aware that, yes, gay people exist.
I don't want my kids exposed to a self destructive lifestyle that leads the nation in deadly disease, partner abuse, and psychological problems.
This is not fear, it's reason.
QuoteI think your statement that you "hate the sinner not the sin" is inconsistent with your objection to the mere presence of gay NPCs in a Pathfinder product.
Presence isn't the issue. Using a game as a platform to make a dangerous, damaging lifestyle appear mainstream and as normal as apple pie is.
Quoteif I exacerbated contention by calling things as I saw them and breeding further animosity, I apologize.
Hey, this is the Internet, it wouldn't feel right if it weren't filled with self-righteous smug SJWs accusing people of thoughtcrimes!
comedy gold right here.
"anyone who isn't tolerant of my homophobia is the real bigot.". Lol
And Aaron, when did you choose to be straight? And since it's a choice, that means you could just as easily choose to be attracted to men sexually, right?
Quote from: Sacrosanct;712874comedy gold right here.
"anyone who isn't tolerant of my homophobia is the real bigot.". Lol
And Aaron, when did you choose to be straight? And since it's a choice, that means you could just as easily choose to be attracted to men sexually, right?
Nice Orwellian language you've got there.
I don't like aids, hpv, or colo-rectal cancer, so I'm 'afraid' of gays. Call me childish schoolyard names all you want, it doesn't change the reality that the gay lifestyle choice is one of the most dangerous and tragic possible.
The choice is to deviate from the biological norm, not to embrace it. I was never abused as a child or exposed to it, so it's not an option for me. But hey, I could pull an Anne Heche and decide to be gay. Then decide not to be.
Well, this should be fun...
Quote from: AaronBrown99;712876Nice Orwellian language you've got there.
I don't like aids, hpv, or colo-rectal cancer, so I'm 'afraid' of gays.
Thank GOD straight people don't get any of thos-oh, wait...
By the way, you didn't actually answer the question about when you chose to be straight.
Also, I'm wondering how the presence of a gay character in an Adventure Path module makes it "mainstream." Are you saying that the appearance of something in a module that we know exists in the real world is the equivalent of promoting it? I'm betting you never put down a module because it promoting murder, slavery, or genocide...
Quote from: Bobloblah;712879Well, this should be fun.
Hey, I posted on topic and then the Rainbow Inquisition picked a fight.
I tried to drop it and save the thread, but if they want to keep pushing, I'm game.
Quote from: VectorSigma;712857Or we could talk about games!
Jesus, people.
I don't like stuff. There is some stuff that really annoys me and other stuff I just ignore.
Man, stuff. Stuff gets everywhere.
And don't start me on things! Things and stuff. If they ever release a game with things and stuff in it I will be sooooo mad.
Quote from: Bobloblah;712879Well, this should be fun...
Thank GOD straight people don't get any of thos-oh, wait...
By the way, you didn't actually answer the question about when you chose to be straight.
Are you wholly ignorant of the center for disease control's acknowledgement that active gay men comprise some 70% of all aids cases?
Since non IV drug users get aids too, why not mainline, by your logic?
I directly answered the question.
Diverging from the biological norm would be a choice, going along with it isn't.
AaronBrown99, I'm going to give you a chance here to stop, and I think you should take it.
You initially made a series of remarks several members interpreted as being offensive and homophobic. You then defended these comments. When your defense was criticized as being contradictory and itself homophobic, you edited your initial post and refused further conversation while still holding to your previous remarks, simultaneously claiming that pointing out your prejudice was itself somehow prejudicial.
I've said my bit. I'm happy to let the topic drop. If you want to the conversation to end, and to cease discussing your personal beliefs - and if you're sincere about keeping your personal beliefs with regards to topics like homosexuality out of the conversation - then we can all move on and talk about how dice pools and percentile skill systems are really annoying or whatnot. I'm satisfied with where the conversation has gone and I'm not sure whether anything productive will come out of a further brouhaha.
But if you really want to have it out, so to speak, as your responses currently suggest, then so be it - but I will not hold back on explaining just how backwards, ignorant, and bigoted your attitudes are, and if you're sensitive about being "labeled" then perhaps we should all just simmer down and shut up.
On the original topic...
I don't like GURPS, and I think it's because the first guy who ran a game of it for me tried to grope my girlfriend.
This guy LOVED GURPS!
So now I identify GURPS with that particular dirtbag.
It's totally irrational.
Quote from: Steerpike;712884But if you really want to have it out, so to speak, as your responses currently suggest, then so be it - but I will not hold back on explaining just how backwards, ignorant, and bigoted your attitudes are, and if you're sensitive about being "labeled" then perhaps we should all just simmer down and shut up.
I'll drop it when you stop with the left-handed, cheap-shot apologies.
Edited to remove my last comment. It's just not worth arguing with you people.
Quote from: AaronBrown99;712880Hey, I posted on topic and then the Rainbow Inquisition picked a fight.
Okay, I'm beginning to agree with Sacrosanct: this is comedy gold! If you think this is an Inquisition, Rainbow or otherwise, you do not belong on the internet, particularly this little corner thereof.
You posted on topic, and that post pretty much met the dictionary definition of bigoted. Since then you've whined liked a baby about being picked on. Grow up. You post something online, expect others to respond. At least on this site you have the freedom to post your opinion, without a mod dog-pile followed by permaban.
Quote from: AaronBrown99;712883Are you wholly ignorant of the center for disease control's acknowledgement that active gay men comprise some 70% of all aids cases?
Are you wholly ignorant of the Bureau of Justice Statistics acknowledgement that Blacks comprise some 40% of all inmates?
Quote from: AaronBrown99;712883Since non IV drug users get aids too, why not mainline, by your logic?
I'm flattered that you think my point was logical, but, judging by this remark, I'm not sure you're qualified to make that judgement.
Quote from: AaronBrown99;712883I directly answered the question.
Diverging from the biological norm would be a choice, going along with it isn't.
Uhh...well, aside from the fact that, in most circles, that's known as a "dodge," no, you didn't answer the question.
As far as "biological norm" goes, there isn't a species studied yet (that reproduces sexually) which doesn't have incidence of homosexual behaviour. Think about that for a moment. Not. One. If occurring in every species studied doesn't define "biological norm," I don't know what does.
Quote from: AaronBrown99;712888I'll drop it when you stop with the left-handed, cheap-shot apologies.
And I'm sure most people here would stop calling you bigoted once you stop posting things that are bigoted. Easy, no?
Quote from: AaronBrown99;712888It's just not worth arguing with you people.
I'd say the feeling is mutual, but thus far you've been good for a few laughs.
Quote from: Bobloblah;712889thus far you've been good for a few laughs.
If that's all I can lay claim to, I'll have to take it.
We now return you to your regularly-scheduled thread.
I don't like how Traveller 5th got rid of the hex numbering system!
Quote from: AaronBrown99;712883Are you wholly ignorant of the center for
Diverging from the biological norm would be a choice, going along with it isn't.
So, as I stated before, there are far more insect species than there are mammal species... thus making mammals a "divergence from the biological norm" (since there are fewer species of them).
The norm (majority) is insects.
So you are saying mammals "choose" to be mammals?
Or are you saying mammals SHOULD choose to to try and be insects, since that is the norm?
You're really losing me here.
I spoon fed you two (relatively) defensible positions on this... why do you insist on taking the least defensible position?
I don't like BRP because I can't stand rolling d100s for everything.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;712901I don't like BRP because I can't stand rolling d100s for everything.
I'm with ya here.
I have a friend who loves the original Runequest... but the % rolls throw me off... and again, I have no logical explanation for this.
Quote from: The Traveller;712723What about derivative works, ever played Call of Cthulhu? Take a good look at some of HP Lovecraft's attitudes to race. It's a more complex picture than it seems on the face of it, and does not lend itself to clean delineations.
What did Stephen King do wrong?
Again, how did Palladium rub you the wrong way? I know they have their critics, especially online, but almost all of this criticism appears to revolve around people who want the game system updated and aren't getting their own way.
1: Lovecraft though was a product of his times and upbringing. More importantly he gre out of his racist views. But detractors love to ignore that and just harp on the early writings. Orson Scott Card though cant keep his mouth shut.
2: Old argument over things unralated to gaming or horror even. Suffice to say we diverge in opinions diametrically.
3: Me personally? Nothing major. Palladium yanked a whole class from one of my books, didnt even change the name, quoted parts and even the darn art piece is a nod to the one in the book. AND didnt credit me. Par for the course. Others designers though have had all manner of trouble working with Palladium. As said, one handed off to me his 200+ page manuscript and just quit totally in exasperation. Theres a long long thread over on "the other place" with lots of commentary too that I'd never even known about. Others have run into Palladiums C&D happy phase, etc. Ive actually never run into anyone who actually disliked the system and played the game past a session. They might grouse about the power creep and oddball quirks. But generally Palladium RPGs are a love/Hate thing really.
Quote from: BarefootGaijin;712882I don't like stuff. There is some stuff that really annoys me and other stuff I just ignore.
Man, stuff. Stuff gets everywhere.
And don't start me on things! Things and stuff. If they ever release a game with things and stuff in it I will be sooooo mad.
I have alot of stuff, its taking over the house. I need a bigger house to put my stuff in.
But I dont want your stuff in my house so stay away man!
And as for Things... Well good news. They did release a game. Enjoy.
(http://www.gamebooks.org/gallery/msh5.jpg)
Quote from: Omega;712911I have alot of stuff, its taking over the house. I need a bigger house to put my stuff in.
But I dont want your stuff in my house so stay away man!
And as for Things... Well good news. They did release a game. Enjoy.
(http://www.gamebooks.org/gallery/msh5.jpg)
And now we're right back to things touching. Avert your eyes, Aaron!
"Like my grandma used to say: It's always some Thing."
Quote from: Emperor Norton;712901I don't like BRP because I can't stand rolling d100s for everything.
Roll a D20 and do everything in 5% increments... I had one guy do that. Pissed me right off.
Those Things are touching each other in a most manly manner... how exciting!
Quote from: Punch and Pie;712804We are talking about a group of people who prefer to identify themselves by their sexual identity. They want you to know they only want make out and have sex with the same gender. It is important to them that you recognize their sexual identity.
Is this actually how the NPCs in the adventure path in question are depicted? My understanding is that that isn't the case.
Jeez, what's with all the low-post-count users coming out of the woodwork saying overtly homophobic things? I mean, it's good to have a reminder that despite what some people around here think the SJWs aren't the most annoying people in the hobby by a long way, and I'm glad people aren't letting shit like "I don't want my kids exposed to a self destructive lifestyle that leads the nation in deadly disease, partner abuse, and psychological problems" stand unchallenged, but even so it's ceasing to be funny.
Quote from: AaronBrown99;712890I don't like how Traveller 5th got rid of the hex numbering system!
Yeah, I try to protect my children from Classic Traveller; don't want thier innocence ruined by hex numbering systems
Quote from: Omega;712911I have alot of stuff, its taking over the house. I need a bigger house to put my stuff in.
But I dont want your stuff in my house so stay away man!
And as for Things... Well good news. They did release a game. Enjoy.
(http://www.gamebooks.org/gallery/msh5.jpg)
I truly hope that module also features The Man-Thing...
(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070410154952/marveldatabase/images/4/4c/Giant-Size_Man-Thing_Vol_1_1.jpg)
Quote from: AaronBrown99;712876I don't like aids, hpv, or colo-rectal cancer, so I'm 'afraid' of gays.
I don't think some fictional homosexuals in the Pathfinder adventure paths are going to give you colo-rectal cancer.
In fact if you shred those modules, add some raisins and seeds, you'll have a muesli that will keep you so regular you'll be able to set your watch by your bowel movements. One of your "five a day" and all that. Although I personally prefer my AFMBE granola.
Is the gay lifestyle so attractive that even hearing about it will cause children to run off and be gay?
Anyways, shame his kids have to miss out on DrWho. Because of rectal cancer.
Quote from: Warthur;712917Is this actually how the NPCs in the adventure path in question are depicted? My understanding is that that isn't the case.
No, your original understanding is correct. Gay NPCs aren't presented with any fanfare nor do they have their sexuality announced. It's always "x is married to y" and "z still harbors some feelings for w".
The biggest deal ever made about homosexuality insetting was way back at the start, where it was simply noted that the local paladin and playwright's relationship was the worst kept secret in town and the only people that made a big deal out of it was the douchebag family while the Varisian locals didn't give a damn. Probably two sentences tops nestled into a village gazetteer.
Honestly, if someone wanted to protect their children's innocence from Pathfinder, I'd look at Lamashtu, Zon-Kuthon, the demon lord obediences, the hillbilly rapist ogres, slavery, drug trade, genocide, etc etc first.
Oh, and three of the four major good goddesses are sometimes in lesbians with each other. But this was delivered in a very subtle manner, easy to miss entirely until the creative director confirmed that some fanporn was technically canonical.
On topic: I can't make myself buy anything I know Frank Trollman was credited on. That's a number of Shadowrun books unfortunately.
Quote from: Omega;7129081: Lovecraft though was a product of his times and upbringing. More importantly he gre out of his racist views. But detractors love to ignore that and just harp on the early writings. Orson Scott Card though cant keep his mouth shut.
Ehh, no. He was an extremist even at the time, as you said yourself he grew out of it. So what about his earlier works, will you discard them and their derivates? After all the spirit and often the literal message of many of them is enormously xenophobic.
Quote from: Omega;7129083: Me personally? Nothing major. Palladium yanked a whole class from one of my books, didnt even change the name, quoted parts and even the darn art piece is a nod to the one in the book. AND didnt credit me.
So why didn't you go after them for copyright infringement? That's not fair use.
Quote from: Bobloblah;712889As far as "biological norm" goes, there isn't a species studied yet (that reproduces sexually) which doesn't have incidence of homosexual behaviour. Think about that for a moment. Not. One. If occurring in every species studied doesn't define "biological norm," I don't know what does.
You must put up that study on the homosexual trout, it should make for fascinating reading.
Quote from: smiorgan;712922I don't think some fictional homosexuals in the Pathfinder adventure paths are going to give you colo-rectal cancer.
Real-life gay people won't, either.
Colorectal cancer has absolutely nothing to do with sexual behavior. I'm pretty sure the bigot is actually refering to anal cancer, which is a different disease altogether, and one that's linked to HPV infection (similarly to uterine cervical cancer, for instance, only in this case obviously men and women stand at risk).
HPV and AIDS also aren't exclusive to male homosexual intercourse.
Get your facts straight, bigots.
Quote from: Evansheer;712930On topic:
Yes please, everybody.
Quote from: The Traveller;712933Ehh, no. He was an extremist even at the time, as you said yourself he grew out of it. So what about his earlier works, will you discard them and their derivates? After all the spirit and often the literal message of many of them is enormously xenophobic.
So why didn't you go after them for copyright infringement? That's not fair use.
1: Because he did grow out of it. Had he not. Well. Thats a different matter. As for some of the so-called racist content in the stories. Some of it is simple firsthand observations of immigrants and such combined with extreme lack of social understanding due to HPLs isolation. Other writers seem to suffer from chronic foot-in-mouth disease. Couple of comic book writers too.
2: A: found out about it years after. B: lack of funds to pursue. C: Trying to work out a non aggressive resolution.
Eh. Everyone has their own tolerance levels and little trigger points.
I want to like Robotech (http://palladium-store.com/1001/product/550-Robotech-The-Shadow-Chronicles-RPG.html). But I read the book (Palladium) and the writing is shite. The "copyright" boilerplate is masterbatory fiction (It is in the same league as "Dark Phoenix Publishing" if anyone knows that name. Google it and laugh at the vampire heartbreaker if not).
The word "decimate" probably doesn`t mean quite what the writer thinks it means. The book is all over the place, more so than Traveller 5 which has its own internal logic once you get over the shock of the difference to other core RPG books. But not this Palladium turd-fest.
It is a terrible waste of a good IP (conjecture on my part!). It is this waste that annoys me. I don`t know enough of the Palladium politics to comment further other than what I do know doesn`t shine a healthy light on the `company` and that it is probably better off dying or something.
Quote from: BarefootGaijin;712951I want to like Robotech (http://palladium-store.com/1001/product/550-Robotech-The-Shadow-Chronicles-RPG.html). But I read the book (Palladium) and the writing is shite. The "copyright" boilerplate is masterbatory fiction (It is in the same league as "Dark Phoenix Publishing" if anyone knows that name. Google it and laugh at the vampire heartbreaker if not).
The word "decimate" probably doesn`t mean quite what the writer thinks it means. The book is all over the place, more so than Traveller 5 which has its own internal logic once you get over the shock of the difference to other core RPG books. But not this Palladium turd-fest.
It is a terrible waste of a good IP (conjecture on my part!). It is this waste that annoys me. I don`t know enough of the Palladium politics to comment further other than what I do know doesn`t shine a healthy light on the `company` and that it is probably better off dying or something.
Shadow Chronicles? Not sure on that one as no one local has it to glance through yet. But that is the second try at an American made aglomeration based off the Macheck-verse as opposed to the source material. Probably reads worse than RT: Sentinels.
The early books were fairly good. Pretty straightforward Palladium style. And made passable sourcebooks for the US version of the series too.
Now Im curious what the new books are like.
I hate it when the text is polluted by each instance of the game's title in BOLD ALL CAPS WITH LOTS OF SYMBOLS ©™®. I think this is totally unnecessary, ugly, and illogical. If you're going to bold something in text, make it something useful that I'll want to find in a hurry when flipping through the book. I already know the name of YOUR BLOODY GAME©™®.
I don't know the legalese of using ©™® in this way (maybe it's justified, what do I know?). The impression I get is paranoia and defensiveness and that attitude puts me off.
You do need to legally put either a TM or an R after a registered trademark as part of asserting ownership of that trademark, I'm not sure if it's required after every mention in a publication but the more paranoid lawyers will advise you to do so. (c) is unneccessary in Berne convention countries.
Quote from: The Butcher;712941Get your facts straight, bigots.
Facts.
Bigots.
They don't really go together.
Quote from: The Traveller;712968You do need to legally put either a TM or an R after a registered trademark as part of asserting ownership of that trademark, I'm not sure if it's required after every mention in a publication but the more paranoid lawyers will advise you to do so.
I just looked at FFG's website downloads page for the Star Wars "Under a Black Sun" PDF: the game appears on the website as "Star Wars®: Edge of the Empire™". The symbols also appear on the title page in the PDF. Thereafter, "Star Wars" is just "Star Wars", not "Star Wars®"
I would assume that Lucasfilms would be one of the more aggressive companies in assuring their properties are being handled correctly. So no, I guess you don't need ®™ all over the place in the text.
Quote from: The Traveller;712933You must put up that study on the homosexual trout, it should make for fascinating reading.
Here, let me Google that for you! (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=trout+fish+homosexual+behaviour)
Quote from: Bobloblah;713023Here, let me Google that for you! (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=trout+fish+homosexual+behaviour)
Thanks, but next time google it for yourself instead, because there is no trout homosexual study, because trout don't display homosexual behaviour. Maybe you got confused by "rainbow" trout. And it beats the shit out of me how an animal that mates by raining sperm on a bed of gravel could perform in any way that might be even vaguely recognised as homosexual.
Not to mention that the list of animals on wikipedia sure as hell isn't every animal every studied.
So no, every animal studied hasn't displayed homosexual behaviour, and it's this kind of hyperbole that does more harm than good. There are many ways your comment could blow up in your face, like say asking "what else is natural in nature".
But we won't go there. Instead we'll recognise that the next time someone starts talking about how natural sexual acts between consenting adults are, we tell them to hand back their unnatural computers and their unnatural cars and their unnatural sun holidays and go live up a fucking tree, because they're too stupid to recognise that "natural" is a fakey made up concept in the first place.
Simples.
Quote from: The Traveller;713031There are many ways your comment could blow up in your face, like say asking "what else is natural in nature".
Gotta love stupidity. Infanticide, cannibalism, et al. Bobblowya must be new to the, "I'm a sub 20 IQ Libtard" game to not have guarded against those logical come backs.
Quote from: One Horse Town;712944Yes please, everybody.
Honestly, it's a boring-as-shit topic, so I'm glad for the Aaron Brown diversion; it's fun to watch reactionary noobs mistake theRPGsite's disdain for over-the-top social justice warriors as marking a safe zone for knuckle-dragging homophobia.
Quote from: The Traveller;713031Thanks, but next time google it for yourself instead, because there is no trout homosexual study, because trout don't display homosexual behaviour. Maybe you got confused by "rainbow" trout. And it beats the shit out of me how an animal that mates by raining sperm on a bed of gravel could perform in any way that might be even vaguely recognised as homosexual.
Not to mention that the list of animals on wikipedia sure as hell isn't every animal every studied.
So no, every animal studied hasn't displayed homosexual behaviour, and it's this kind of hyperbole that does more harm than good. There are many ways your comment could blow up in your face, like say asking "what else is natural in nature".
But we won't go there. Instead we'll recognise that the next time someone starts talking about how natural sexual acts between consenting adults are, we tell them to hand back their unnatural computers and their unnatural cars and their unnatural sun holidays and go live up a fucking tree, because they're too stupid to recognise that "natural" is a fakey made up concept in the first place.
Simples.
Hilarious. I noted his term in quotes because it's his, and not one with any meaning.
In terms of animals, no I really haven't bothered to look at trout specifically, but I have looked at this topic in considerable detail in the past. The difficulty we're having is with the fact that a great many animals who reproduce sexually do not have "sex" as we mean it when referring to humans, which is what I was referring to by sexual reproduction (yes, I'm aware that's not technically what the term means - mea culpa - I wasn't actually trying to be hyperbolic). In spite of that, many of those that don't reproduce by having sex still engage in the behaviours associated with their form of exchanging genetic material, but with members of the same sex, including species of fish who reproduce by "raining sperm on a bed of gravel." That you can't conceive of that has little to do with whether or not it exists, and Wikipedia is hardly the definitive word on the subject.
Ultimately, homosexual is a term that refers to specific human behaviour. Many, many terms describing various facets of human behaviour map imperfectly to other species. So what?
As for the argument of what's natural in nature, I have no problem with someone asking that question. That something is naturally occurring isn't any kind of argument for or against it; it merely debunks any claim that it is somehow "unnatural."
Nvm.
Quote from: Bobloblah;713038As for the argument of what's natural in nature, I have no problem with someone asking that question. That something is naturally occurring isn't any kind of argument for or against it; it merely debunks any claim that it is somehow "unnatural."
EVERYTHING IS NATURAL. EVERY FUCKING THING.
Someone talking about how something is unnatural is as full of shit as someone talking about how something is supernatural.
Getting it yet? And behold, now you don't have to worry about people linking to gifs of dogs raping chickens.
You're welcome.
are you guys really having this discussion? Gay trout? Really?
Quote from: The Traveller;713042EVERYTHING IS NATURAL. EVERY FUCKING THING.
My, aren't you the philosopher? Unfortunately, this depend on one's definitions of "everything" and "natural."
Quote from: Sacrosanct;713043are you guys really having this discussion? Gay trout? Really?
What do you have against gay trout? More importantly, would you refuse to buy a game based on the presence of gay trout in it?
Back to the original topic that I've rather unfortunately helped to completely derail, I initially refused to buy 1st edition Heavy Gear because I hated the graphic design of the cover. The old adage proved true, as it ended up eventually becoming one of my favourite RPGs
Quote from: Sacrosanct;713043are you guys really having this discussion? Gay trout? Really?
Cant be any more hilarious than watching the discussion over on "the other place" of how some guy never touches RuneQuest because of how real ducks mate...
Quote from: Bobloblah;713046Back to the original topic that I've rather unfortunately helped to completely derail, I initially refused to buy 1st edition Heavy Gear because I hated the graphic design of the cover. The old adage proved true, as it ended up eventually becoming one of my favourite RPGs
The d20 GW covers had a rather un-inspiring look too.
ooooh. Speaking of wacky off-putting design.
What about Cyberpunk 2020 3.0?
(http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1340/77/1340771928821.jpg)
How many readers baulked at just the art... dolls... Before even getting to the rules?
Quote from: Dunnagin;712887On the original topic...
I don't like GURPS, and I think it's because the first guy who ran a game of it for me tried to grope my girlfriend.
This guy LOVED GURPS!
So now I identify GURPS with that particular dirtbag.
It's totally irrational.
Steve Jackson's GROPES.
Quote from: Omega;713057How many readers baulked at just the art... dolls... Before even getting to the rules?
Approximately all of them I think.
Quote from: Warthur;712917"I don't want my kids exposed to a self destructive lifestyle that leads the nation in deadly disease, partner abuse, and psychological problems"
Storygame what now?
Quote from: Omega;713057ooooh. Speaking of wacky off-putting design.
What about Cyberpunk 2020 3.0?
How many readers baulked at just the art... dolls... Before even getting to the rules?
:jaw-dropping:
There are no words...
Quote from: therealjcm;713059Approximately all of them I think.
Twice that many.
Quote from: AaronBrown99;712876I don't like aids, hpv, or colo-rectal cancer, so I'm 'afraid' of gays. (...) The choice is to deviate from the biological norm, not to embrace it.
Guys, pay attention: Aaron has just told us that he would choose to be gay if he wasn't "afraid" of HIV and colo-rectal cancer. No actual straight person would say that. He's clearly a closeted homosexual lashing out at anything and anyone reminding him of how miserable he's chosen to make the lie of his life.
You're not going to get anything rational out of him because what he's talking about is irrational fear and/or self-loathing.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;713065Guys, pay attention: Aaron has just told us that he would choose to be gay if he wasn't "afraid" of HIV and colo-rectal cancer. No actual straight person would say that. He's clearly a closeted homosexual lashing out at anything and anyone reminding him of how miserable he's chosen to make the lie of his life.
You're not going to get anything rational out of him because what he's talking about is irrational fear and/or self-loathing.
If gay were a choice, I'd choose to be gay. Lots more sex, and men are much easier to figure out than women ;)
Quote from: Omega;713057The d20 GW covers had a rather un-inspiring look too.
ooooh. Speaking of wacky off-putting design.
What about Cyberpunk 2020 3.0?
How many readers baulked at just the art... dolls... Before even getting to the rules?
We've all seen worse, though.
Quote from: Ladybird;713072We've all seen worse, though.
Sweet Christmas, where?!!
Quote from: Omega;713057How many readers baulked at just the art... dolls... Before even getting to the rules?
Not just the art, the whole layout with the cheap pixelated graphic margins meant to be some kind of metal tablet with the neon green color of the screen...ouch.
Some interesting ideas in there, but overall the textbook example of how not to layout a RPG.
Quote from: Bobloblah;713073Sweet Christmas, where?!!
Cyborg commando and torg had some cringeworthy art for a professional game. I don't know that it was as bad as the posed doll photos though.
Quote from: therealjcm;713076I don't know that it was as bad as the posed doll photos though.
I'm not entirely convinced that anything could be.
Quote from: Bobloblah;713078I'm not entirely convinced that anything could be.
I agree with this 1000%. To the point where I would purchase the extended aftermarket warranty on this statement. Back in the day I was a
Huge CP2020 fan. I was excited when I heard about a new edition. Then I saw the art, and thought "What the fuck?" Then I read some of the new setting fluff (for lack of better wording). Deal fucking breaker. Damn you Pondsmith!!! I am an unsatisfied minority of a minority! Placate me! Whats your next project by the way?:D:p
Quote from: Bobloblah;713073Sweet Christmas, where?!!
D&D Gamma World.
Setting description is just short of cartoon slapstick.
The art is... circus horror freaks.
(http://th07.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2010/293/2/d/gamma_world_monsters_5_by_mikefaille-d315irv.jpg)
Its good art. But it has nothing to do with the slapstick tone of the setting.
Art director fail.
Yeah...looks a bit like using the art direction for the monster manuals on a children's book. Still better than the dolls, though.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;713065Guys, pay attention: Aaron has just told us that he would choose to be gay if he wasn't "afraid" of HIV and colo-rectal cancer. No actual straight person would say that. He's clearly a closeted homosexual lashing out at anything and anyone reminding him of how miserable he's chosen to make the lie of his life.
You're not going to get anything rational out of him because what he's talking about is irrational fear and/or self-loathing.
It reminds me of the quote: "Don't like abortion? Don't have one."
Quote from: Sacrosanct;713043are you guys really having this discussion? Gay trout? Really?
Trigger warning on the gay trout thing next time please. Recovering otherkin victim... I had the stuffing knocked out of me. My head was swimming and it left me feeling very eel.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;713036Honestly, it's a boring-as-shit topic, so I'm glad for the Aaron Brown diversion; it's fun to watch reactionary noobs mistake theRPGsite's disdain for over-the-top social justice warriors as marking a safe zone for knuckle-dragging homophobia.
(https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/3501098166/ac9e381b28244730caad3d549a13e31f.jpeg)
Quote from: Bobloblah;713078I'm not entirely convinced that anything could be.
There is that Hot Chicks RPG that is completely filled with pictures of "sexy" cgi barbiedoll poser art. It's a horrific highway thru the uncanny valley.
(http://www.purplepawn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/hot-chicks-rpg-gm-screen.jpg)
Quote from: TristramEvans;713148There is that Hot Chicks RPG that is completely filled with pictures of "sexy" cgi barbiedoll poser art. It's a horrific highway thru the uncanny valley.
(http://www.purplepawn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/hot-chicks-rpg-gm-screen.jpg)
That is without a doubt the stupidest looking RPG art I have ever, ever seen.
My God, putting bondage gear on a barbie doll and taking a photo of it would have the same effect. Damn, that is about the most ridiculous shit I have ever laid eyes on.
Quote from: TristramEvans;713148There is that Hot Chicks RPG that is completely filled with pictures of "sexy" cgi barbiedoll poser art. It's a horrific highway thru the uncanny valley.
(http://www.purplepawn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/hot-chicks-rpg-gm-screen.jpg)
And the example photo is some of the milder stuff... ow...
I've seen some of their stuff on online shops. Wasnt impressed. Reminds me of a discussion elsewhere a month ago where someone was going on about how 3d renders would revolutionize game design befause you wouldnt have to pay those greedy ol artists anymore! (Some are pretty greedy to be sure.)
And we were pointing out how it just doesnt work. 3d models look cheap even when they arent. You still need skill to actually pose the things. And you need some art skill to actually dress them up and not have it look like a fasion train wreck or softporn.
The Hot Chicks series, (and what are there now? A dozen in the series?) is just sophomoric rather than overly offensive. It feels allmost like a parody. But without the class and punning skill of Macho Women with Guns.
Quote from: TristramEvans;713147(https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/3501098166/ac9e381b28244730caad3d549a13e31f.jpeg)
Makes two of us. Cheers!
Quote from: VectorSigma;713060Storygame what now?
Please don't attribute that quote to me when I was quoting someone else.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;713150That is without a doubt the stupidest looking RPG art I have ever, ever seen.
My God, putting bondage gear on a barbie doll and taking a photo of it would have the same effect. Damn, that is about the most ridiculous shit I have ever laid eyes on.
Bondage Barbie is pretty much the idea behind that game. ;)
JG
Another thing I just can`t do. MONGOOSE Traveller.
I have read the reviews, I have the book, I understand the how, whats and wherefores. I can`t do it.
Completely irrational. I don`t know why. Maybe it is the word: MONGOOSE.
Maybe a mongoose touched my peepee when I was a child and I have suppressed it?* All that remains coming out to my conscious mind is the inability to buy, use or play Mongoose publications?
*A gay mongoose touching me with a gay trout.
A Star Wars RPG that used photos of posed action figures and toys for the art would actually be pretty cool. Lay the whole gamebook out in the style of the little catalog inserts that used to come with the toys back in the late 70's.
Quote from: BarefootGaijin;713451All that remains coming out to my conscious mind is the inability to buy, use or play Mongoose publications?
Mongoose has a bad rep. Apparently their original d20 stuff had appaling quality in writing, layout, art, printing, binding or all of the above.
Traveller is probably their best core rulebook since the Conan d20 line went OOP and before MRQII, and the recent reprints have considerably better art. MRQII was a great game with crap art. I've got Legend but can't for the life of me recall whether they've improved the art; I've barely cracked it open since picking up RQ6.
I still pick up Traveller and Legend stuff from Mongoose on occasion, and what really irks me is the delas. Traveller: Prime Directive is what, 6 months late now? And counting.
I'm not sure this counts as petty, but I'll never play in a rpg game that uses the 'module numbering' system ("Please refer to the explanation of the Order is Actions on page 7-14"). Those drive me nuts and make any rpg manual using this system for page numbering a truly miserable experience. Even if I love a game system, if they switched to module numbering I would stop buying it. If someone else at the table tries to bring in such a system I will leave the group until they switch back to something else.
I think this comes from a desire by the authors to mimic the style in some technical manuals and appear advanced, but it's just clunky. There was no good reason for the author to abandon traditional page numbering.
Quote from: BarefootGaijin;713451*A gay mongoose touching me with a gay trout.
The Aristocrats!
Quote from: BarefootGaijin;713451*A gay mongoose touching me with a gay trout.
That's two negatives, which as any mathematician will tell you, make it a positive experience.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;713500That's two negatives, which as any mathematician will tell you, make it a positive experience.
It's not gay unless the trouts touch!
Quote from: wmarshal;713489I'm not sure this counts as petty, but I'll never play in a rpg game that uses the 'module numbering' system ("Please refer to the explanation of the Order is Actions on page 7-14").
I think this comes from a desire by the authors to mimic the style in some technical manuals and appear advanced, but it's just clunky. There was no good reason for the author to abandon traditional page numbering.
It's an odd holdover from old-school wargames.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;713564It's an odd holdover from old-school wargames.
I have seen something similar, but not quite the same in wargames, but it was done at the level of the individual rule. In Emires at Arms you'd have something like "7.4.1.2.1 Other Corps In The Area: For each other unbesieged corps in the area it currently occupies...". What I've seen some games do is use pagination that is more like what IBM technical manuals use. These games would feature advanced technology (never seen this done in a game with fantasy or history as a theme), and I suspect the designer thought adopting the same pagination as the tech manuals would be "teh kewl". However, I've not played a lot of the older wargames, so I may have missed the actual origin of this style in games.
Ahh the negative Mongoose press. That'll be the one.
Quote from: The Butcher;713474Mongoose has a bad rep. Apparently their original d20 stuff had appaling quality in writing, layout, art, printing, binding or all of the above.
Traveller is probably their best core rulebook since the Conan d20 line went OOP and before MRQII, and the recent reprints have considerably better art. MRQII was a great game with crap art. I've got Legend but can't for the life of me recall whether they've improved the art; I've barely cracked it open since picking up RQ6.
I still pick up Traveller and Legend stuff from Mongoose on occasion, and what really irks me is the delas. Traveller: Prime Directive is what, 6 months late now? And counting.
Yep, of the early Mongoose books I picked up way back, most were garbage it felt to me. Which set the mood for everything since. I had a glance at a friends copy of M-Traveller and wasnt impressed. Something didnt... feel right... as it were.
Which can be a reason to pass on a game too. Just that odd... feeeling... that this is not a game I'd like. Or something is wrong here, but I dont feel like dropping down 25$ or more to find out what.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;713545It's not gay unless the trouts touch!
It's not gay in a threeway.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;713712It's not gay in a threeway.
JG
But it's a violation of the Bro Code to make eye contact in a "devil's three way"
:>
Quote from: omega;713057what about cyberpunk 2020 3.0?
(http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1340/77/1340771928821.jpg)
how many readers baulked at just the art... Dolls... Before even getting to the rules?
oh fuck my eyes!!! It burns my eyes!!!
Quote from: Sacrosanct;713066If gay were a choice, I'd choose to be gay. Lots more sex, and men are much easier to figure out than women ;)
I've often wondered how much "homophobia" wasn't so much fear as a deep-rooted envy; not out of some kind of notion of closeted desires (though our actual biological tendencies as opposed to our cultural ideas about gender-identity could certainly make some people feel insecure because in spite of being mostly heterosexual they sometimes feel same-sex attractions), but from the sense that "the gays have it too easy"; that homosexuals are somehow "cheating" by wanting to hook up with people that would be far less complicated to have to deal with when it comes to sex than women.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;713036Honestly, it's a boring-as-shit topic, so I'm glad for the Aaron Brown diversion; it's fun to watch reactionary noobs mistake theRPGsite's disdain for over-the-top social justice warriors as marking a safe zone for knuckle-dragging homophobia.
Yup. I suspect someone heard some Swine saying "that rpgsite is full of homophobes!" and came gleefully prancing over here thinking this would be an emotionally safe environment for his bullshit; when in fact theRPGsite has not been a very welcoming place to REAL bigots (as in, actual ones, rather than what moronic pseudoactivists describe as "bigotry") of any stripe.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;714914I've often wondered how much "homophobia" wasn't so much fear as a deep-rooted envy; not out of some kind of notion of closeted desires (though our actual biological tendencies as opposed to our cultural ideas about gender-identity could certainly make some people feel insecure because in spite of being mostly heterosexual they sometimes feel same-sex attractions), but from the sense that "the gays have it too easy"; that homosexuals are somehow "cheating" by wanting to hook up with people that would be far less complicated to have to deal with when it comes to sex than women.
Having informally studies the subject, I can say envy is a huge motivator for homophobia among both straight men and women.
Quote from: RPGPundit;714914I've often wondered how much "homophobia" wasn't so much fear as a deep-rooted envy;
:rotfl: Seek help, quickly.
Quote from: RPGPundit;714914I've often wondered how much "homophobia" wasn't so much fear as a deep-rooted envy; not out of some kind of notion of closeted desires (though our actual biological tendencies as opposed to our cultural ideas about gender-identity could certainly make some people feel insecure because in spite of being mostly heterosexual they sometimes feel same-sex attractions), but from the sense that "the gays have it too easy"; that homosexuals are somehow "cheating" by wanting to hook up with people that would be far less complicated to have to deal with when it comes to sex than women.
Generally fear of homosexual activity is based on fear of sex in general. :D
JG
Quote from: RPGPundit;714911oh fuck my eyes!!! It burns my eyes!!!
I'm a huge fan of CP2020. That said, I bought one copy of Cyberpunk 3.0, hoping that they'd continued the adventure line that didn't end with Firestorm, and I promptly left it somewhere and never regretted it.
Even if someone had gotten past the art to the rules, they would've been so lost and disappointed; I honestly don't know what got into them, they should've learned from Dream Park and Fuzion.
Quote from: James Gillen;715121Generally fear of homosexual activity is based on fear of sex in general. :D
JG
Fear of sex, or fear of the unfairness that someone else might be having a consequence-free better time than you?
Quote from: RPGPundit;715305Fear of sex, or fear of the unfairness that someone else might be having a consequence-free better time than you?
And of course in itself the idea that homosexual sex is necessarily focused around easy consequence-free hookups, or that such hookups aren't a major feature of heterosexual behaviour too if you know where to look, is in itself a huge stereotype that isn't necessarily true. (And, if anything, it's becoming less true now it's become more and more safe and acceptable to live openly in a gay relationship; for many gay people back in the day brief trysts were the only option they felt was open to them because the risk of scandal would become that much more exacerbated by an ongoing relationship - not that there weren't plenty of those too, but it was a factor against people seeking long-term partnerships.)
Quote from: RPGPundit;715305Fear of sex, or fear of the unfairness that someone else might be having a consequence-free better time than you?
I dunno bout consequence-free, it's safest to wear a condom for anal anyway.
There are always consequences for anal.
Quote from: RPGPundit;715305Fear of sex, or fear of the unfairness that someone else might be having a consequence-free better time than you?
I believe it was William F. Buckley who said that a Christian was someone who was desperately afraid that someone else out there was actually having a good time.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;715446I believe it was William F. Buckley who said that a Christian was someone who was desperately afraid that someone else out there was actually having a good time.
JG
Wow, what a bigot.
Quote from: AaronBrown99;715477Bigot.
Maybe he just doesn't want his children corrupted.
Quote from: TristramEvans;715482Maybe he just doesn't want his children corrupted.
Wow, what a pithy comeback that completely ignores your own hypocrisy and raises an irrelevant point using something I said
in a post about my own opinion.
So bigotry and obvious fallacies against Christians are ok, but stating demonstrable
facts about lifestyle choices is blameworthy.
Again, I'll let you SJWs alone and attempt to confine my posts to actual game-related topics, but I'm happy to call you out on your idiocy when I see it so blatantly put forth.
Idiot.
Quote from: James Gillen;715446I believe it was William F. Buckley who said that a Christian was someone who was desperately afraid that someone else out there was actually having a good time.
JG
It was Ambrose Bierce in his Devil's Dictionary, and it was the entry for puritanism. "The fear that someone, sonewhere might be having a good time."
Quote from: The Butcher;715486It was Ambrose Bierce in his Devil's Dictionary, and it was the entry for puritanism. "The fear that someone, sonewhere might be having a good time."
Actually, it sounds like an accurate descriptor of Catholics, not Christians ;) The Catholic Religion is built all around guilt.
And before Aaron throws a fit, I was raised Catholic.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;715489Actually, it sounds like an accurate descriptor of Catholics, not Christians ;) The Catholic Religion is built all around guilt.
And before Aaron throws a fit, I was raised Catholic.
Couldn't hack it, though, I guess?
I'm a stickler for correctly naming things, so if you're going to make a distinction that makes any sense outside of America, you'll want to separate
Protestants from Catholics, not "Christians", since the first group to historically lay claim to the name were indeed the Catholics. In the US the term Christian is essentially synonymous with Protestant, but that doesn't hold outside it.
I love this thread, such a target-rich environment for SJW rabbits who revel in groupthink and somehow think calling people schoolyard names equals winning an argument.
TBP can't even come close to this level of entertainment.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;715489The Catholic Religion is built all around guilt.
So you're a bigot, then? Or "Catholic-phobe"?
Just want to make sure you're being consistent, unless those terms are only valid for those who point out facts inconvenient to your lifestyle choices.
Quote from: AaronBrown99;715491Couldn't hack it, though, I guess?
Catholicism is an extreme sport?
Quote from: AaronBrown99;715491Couldn't hack it, though, I guess?
.
Couldn't hack it? LOL, you're a special flower, aren't you?
More like I refused to continue to put up with:
* constantly judging other people as bad people (sinners) just because they didn't believe EXACTLY as you.
* being told that unless you followed a very strict and rigid process, you weren't a "real" believer and you should feel guilty for your failings (Communion, Mass, Confession, etc).
* the blatant hypocrisy of judging others on a weekly basis in Jesus's name when Jesus was a pretty mello non-judgmental guy.
* constantly telling you, in every mass, every week, that you are a bad person who should ask for forgiveness
* covering up child rape at an organizational level, and the members not holding those people who did it accountable or responsible (yeah, this one is sort of a biggie)
* continuing to push stupid ideas like "no contraception at all, no excuses!" when the person who invented the birth control pill was a Catholic who created it as a way to get around that rule (irony that). It's a stupid idea because the Church is actively encouraging babies to be born into environments where the children and parents will suffer because they can't afford to raise a kid. The same people who then bitch about government support going to that family like they are leaches and horrible people (oh look! more guilt!) Let them use a freaking condom and you wouldn't have been in that situation to begin with, dumbasses.
I take that back. Maybe you're right. Maybe I couldn't hack continuing to live in a hypocritical cult. :rolleyes:
Quote from: AaronBrown99;715493So you're a bigot, then? Or "Catholic-phobe"?
And you are obviously an idiot who doesn't know jack shit about Catholicism. Pointing out how Catholicism is built around guilt does not make one a bigot when this little thing called "Confession" is a core part of the tenets of the faith. Any another core part of every mass is Communion and the reiteration how Christ died for my
sins. Guilt it literally a key aspect of being a Catholic, by their own rules.
Wanna keep digging that hole?
Quote from: AaronBrown99;715485So bigotry and obvious fallacies against Christians are ok, but stating demonstrable facts about lifestyle choices is blameworthy.
Quote from: AaronBrown99;715485demonstrable facts
Quote from: AaronBrown99;715485lifestyle choice
Yeah, that right there is about as demonstrably factual as your gay rectal cancer assertion.
Before you go playing the martyr, hi, I'm a gay Christian. You don't know what persecution is.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;715497Couldn't hack it? LOL, you're a special flower, aren't you?
More like I refused to continue to put up with:
* constantly judging other people as bad people (sinners) just because they didn't believe EXACTLY as you.
* being told that unless you followed a very strict and rigid process, you weren't a "real" believer and you should feel guilty for your failings (Communion, Mass, Confession, etc).
* the blatant hypocrisy of judging others on a weekly basis in Jesus's name when Jesus was a pretty mello non-judgmental guy.
* constantly telling you, in every mass, every week, that you are a bad person who should ask for forgiveness
* covering up child rape at an organizational level, and the members not holding those people who did it accountable or responsible (yeah, this one is sort of a biggie)
* continuing to push stupid ideas like "no contraception at all, no excuses!" when the person who invented the birth control pill was a Catholic who created it as a way to get around that rule (irony that). It's a stupid idea because the Church is actively encouraging babies to be born into environments where the children and parents will suffer because they can't afford to raise a kid. The same people who then bitch about government support going to that family like they are leaches and horrible people (oh look! more guilt!) Let them use a freaking condom and you wouldn't have been in that situation to begin with, dumbasses.
I take that back. Maybe you're right. Maybe I couldn't hack continuing to live in a hypocritical cult. :rolleyes:
Based on this list, expecting you to describe Catholicism accurately would be akin to asking a National Socialist to teach lessons on Judaism authentically.
(Godwin wins again, I suppose)
Quote from: Evansheer;715499Yeah, that right there is about as demonstrably factual as your gay rectal cancer assertion.
Before you go playing the martyr, hi, I'm a gay Christian. You don't know what persecution is.
Awww, people being meanies because you decided to hit for the other team?
Cry me a river.
I think conversation either needs to move into Pundits forum or it needs to walk back to something RPG related.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;715498And you are obviously an idiot who doesn't know jack shit about Catholicism. Pointing out how Catholicism is built around guilt does not make one a bigot when this little thing called "Confession" is a core part of the tenets of the faith. Any another core part of every mass is Communion and the reiteration how Christ died for my sins. Guilt it literally a key aspect of being a Catholic, by their own rules.
Wanna keep digging that hole?
But me pointing out that gays are provably, visibly, obviously more prone to life threatening disease makes me a bigot?
Abandoning a faith because its tenets were too difficult to live up to is much more honest than staying in it and undermining it from within, like the fellow who invented the pill did. So at least you have that going for you.
Quote from: AaronBrown99;715501Awww, people being meanies because you decided to hit for the other team?
Cry me a river.
Wow, I'm almost as underwhelmed and disappointed as your mother right now.
Quote from: AaronBrown99;715500Based on this list, expecting you to describe Catholicism accurately would be akin to asking a National Socialist to teach lessons on Judaism authentically.
(Godwin wins again, I suppose)
Wow. Are you a sock of Arduin? I have to ask because you make a post that displays your complete ignorance of Catholicism, and when confronted with one that actually lists out parts of it, you can't bring your own facts to the table but double down on "you don't know anything."
You are JUST like him, in just about every argument. Like when he kept being wrong about the law and telling a lawyer he didn't know what he was talking about, rather than actually be able to provide a single shred of supporting evidence himself.
Quote from: Evansheer;715505Wow, I'm almost as underwhelmed and disappointed as your mother right now.
Back to name calling, which is again, all SJW rabbits have.
Quote from: AaronBrown99;715504Abandoning a faith because its tenets were too difficult to live up to is much more honest than staying in it and undermining it from within, like the fellow who invented the pill did. So at least you have that going for you.
It wasn't too difficult you dumbass. It was hypocritical and downright evil, at least from an organizational standpoint. What part of that don't you get?
Quote from: Sacrosanct;715506Wow. Are you a sock of Arduin? I have to ask because you make a post that displays your complete ignorance of Catholicism, and when confronted with one that actually lists out parts of it, you can't bring your own facts to the table but double down on "you don't know anything."
You are JUST like him, in just about every argument. Like when he kept being wrong about the law and telling a lawyer he didn't know what he was talking about, rather than actually be able to provide a single shred of supporting evidence himself.
You didn't specify anything in that list that accurately describes catholic practice in the least. I can't be expected to respond with actual evidence for things that are simply your opinions.
Quote from: AaronBrown99;715507Back to name calling, which is again, all SJW rabbits have.
There is precisely as much namecalling in that post as there are demonstrable facts in the entirety of your posting history.
Quote from: AaronBrown99;715509You didn't specify anything in that list that accurately describes catholic practice in the least. I can't be expected to respond with actual evidence for things that are simply your opinions.
Is Confession not an important thing?
Is Communion not an important thing?
Did the Catholic church not cover up child abuse?
Answer those three things, without some stupid name calling that ignores the question.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;715508It wasn't too difficult you dumbass. It was hypocritical and downright evil, at least from an organizational standpoint. What part of that don't you get?
It's hypocritical for a religion to describe moral tenets that followers should strive to live by, and then provide a means for adherents to restore themselves when they inevitably fail to meet them?
What hypocrites, telling people who broke the 5th commandment against willful murder that they have to repent and admit their faults.
If you think a religion is supposed to be all happy spiritualism where we sit in a circle, play our guitars and celebrate how special we are, I could see how an actual adherence to standards of conduct would be a challenge for you.
As for communion, it is, at its core, a public profession of union with the Church and a statement of faith. To allow people to participate in that act when they are knowingly, willfully in defiance of the Church's laws would be hypocrisy.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;715512Is Confession not an important thing?
Is Communion not an important thing?
Did the Catholic church not cover up child abuse?
Answer those three things, without some stupid name calling that ignores the question.
Answered just above regarding Communion and Confession.
Indeed they did cover up child abuse, which was a horrific and definitely a hypocritical, repeated violation of trust.
But that doesn't invalidate Catholicism
as a system.
If you claim it does, the
far higher number of sexual abuse cases hushed up or ignored in the public school sector bodes ill for public schooling as a system. Or does that not count either, because those were just a few bad apples?
Hey guys are we still talking about RPG companies in this thr-
(http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/7400000/Abe-Simpson-walking-in-and-out-the-simpsons-7414427-320-240.gif)
Quote from: AaronBrown99;715514It's hypocritical for a religion to describe moral tenets that followers should strive to live by, and then provide a means for adherents to restore themselves when they inevitably fail to meet them?
.
It's hypocritical to judge people and tell people how to live when you yourself don't. That's sort of the very definition of hypocrisy.
Quote from: AaronBrown99;715516Answered just above regarding Communion and Confession.
Indeed they did cover up child abuse, which was a horrific and definitely a hypocritical, repeated violation of trust.
So you admit you were wrong when you said, "You didn't specify anything in that list that accurately describes catholic practice in the least."?
Because those things were on my list. And here you are, clearly admitting that they do in fact describes Catholic practice.
QuoteBut that doesn't invalidate Catholicism as a system.
If you claim it does, the far higher number of sexual abuse cases hushed up or ignored in the public school sector bodes ill for public schooling as a system. Or does that not count either, because those were just a few bad apples?
Come back with a better analogy. This might hold water if the Dept of Education at a state level was involved in cover ups, and when finally exposed, none of the teachers cared about holding the abusive ones or the people who covered the abuse up accountable nor tried to get them to out of teaching.
Keep digging.
Guys this is the rpg forum. The thread is wandering way off topic and outside the realm of games. Please bring it back to RPGs.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;715518It's hypocritical to judge people and tell people how to live when you yourself don't.
Individual Catholics != Catholicism as a system.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;715519Guys this is the rpg forum. The thread is wandering way off topic and outside the realm of games. Please bring it back to RPGs.
Agreed, I will comply.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;715519Guys this is the rpg forum. The thread is wandering way off topic and outside the realm of games. Please bring it back to RPGs.
I find myself hesitant to buy stuff by James Wyatt these days after that bullshit article he did about what is and isn't fantasy. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4wand/20131008)
Not sure if that's petty or if it's just being informed about what he's selling.
Quote from: Evansheer;715525I find myself hesitant to buy stuff by James Wyatt these days after that bullshit article he did about what is and isn't fantasy.
Not sure if that's petty or if it's just being informed about what he's selling.
Do you have a link to the article? What was the articles main point? Didn't hear about this one, just curious.
I liked his work on orient adventures for 3E.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;715527Do you have a link to the article? What was the articles main point? Didn't hear about this one, just curious.
I liked his work on orient adventures for 3E.
I edited it in just now, sorry.
This one. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4wand/20131008)
Quote from: thedungeondelver;715517Hey guys are we still talking about RPG companies in this thr-
(http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/7400000/Abe-Simpson-walking-in-and-out-the-simpsons-7414427-320-240.gif)
Jesus, i swear some people here are more interested in talking about non-gaming stuff.
That's what happens when you take in refugees from the other place i suppose.
Quote from: One Horse Town;715529Jesus, i swear some people here are more interested in talking about non-gaming stuff.
Does this site have a traditional "monthly general thread where we talk about any random shit that comes to mind" to serve as a vent for this stuff? I'm not sure of the etiquette for things like that in The RPGPundit's Own Forum.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;715512Is Confession not an important thing?
It is important, but not because of guilt per se. It is important because of personal responsibility and recognition of one's actions, which is one of the central themes of the Catholic religion. I don't actually think that guilt is the point here. It's part of the premise that human beings are not perfect, and that if you have compassion and have a conscience, you should seek repentance, take responsibility for your actions in order to be redeemed, which is something you do by facing the Mother Church and asking for pardon through Confession, in the context of the religion. That's actually the theme AFAIC. Not "guilt".
I certainly won't deny that some "fire and brimstone" priest might use guilt as leverage in some sermon or other, but that's an avatar of one's own bias, rather than the actual central theme of the religion, IMO.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;715512Is Communion not an important thing?
Communion IS a very important thing. But I think that basically implying that the only raison d'être of Communion in Catholicism is "guilt" is basically missing a large part of the point.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;715512Did the Catholic church not cover up child abuse?
The Catholic Church has a big issue regarding child abuse, and as a Catholic I can say that I wish the Church would live more by the tenets of the religion, personal responsibility and facing the consequences of one's actions, for instance, instead of burying its head in the sand about it. I'll certainly grant you that.
It's just that saying the Catholic religion is all about guilt is like staring at the finger pointing out the presence of a star in the sky. Technically it is part of the religion in the sense that yes, there is a premise that implies the imperfection of human beings, that one must have a conscience and take responsibility for one's own actions, which implies a feeling of guilt sooner rather than later, but it ignores the entire point that from there you can seek redemption and in effect be forgiven, which is the actual point here.
And now I'll just move on from that non-gaming topic. I just had to answer to that, as a Catholic myself.
So what happens when a MOD says "stop talking about this off topic stuff" and another mod continues the conversation?
I'm not saying you intended this Benoist, but it comes very much across like TBP, where Mods get the last word in without worrying about being responded to.
For example, I would normally have replied, "Any time asking for forgiveness is a key aspect of a religion, that infers that you've done something wrong. That's what forgiveness means. And anytime you're being told you've done something wrong, that implies you should feel guilty about it, especially when you're told you're still being a bad person by not following the specific process of asking for forgiveness. And I would posit that any time you have a common term (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_guilt) for something, there's truth behind it."
Quote from: Sacrosanct;715550So what happens when a MOD says "stop talking about this off topic stuff" and another mod continues the conversation?
I'm not saying you intended this Benoist, but it comes very much across like TBP, where Mods get the last word in without worrying about being responded to.
I didn't notice the messages of both OHT and Brendan. You're being an ass trying to bring up a TBP comparison into this.
Unless you're implying that because I found out about your previous posts now, I should just shut up and let it slide because some other mod said so, in which case, no, sorry. For once, I felt like actually responding to this.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;715550For example, I would normally have replied, "Any time asking for forgiveness is a key aspect of a religion, that infers that you've done something wrong. That's what forgiveness means. And anytime you're being told you've done something wrong, that implies you should feel guilty about it, especially when you're told you're still being a bad person by not following the specific process of asking for forgiveness. And I would posit that any time you have a common term (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_guilt) for something, there's truth behind it."
As I said: To me that just means you prefer to stare at the finger rather than look at what it's pointing at. You'll excuse me if (1) I trust my own Catholic education more than some article who-the-fuck-knows wrote on Wikipedia some day, and (2) don't fall for the populist appeal of authority that "because there's a meme, it must be true".
Sorry to have thoughts of my own about my own religion.
Quote from: Benoist;715551You're being an ass trying to bring up a TBP comparison into this.
No, he isn't. What you did, perhaps inadvertently, is a major problem on The Other Site. What you're saying is heading in the direction of reductio ad absurdum, where no one can draw any any parallels between here and The Other Site, because
obviously this place is not that Other Place.
Quote from: Benoist;715551Unless you're implying that because I found out about your previous posts now, I should just shut up and let it slide because some other mod said so, in which case, no, sorry. For once, I felt like actually responding to this.
That's understandable. The problem is that everybody was told to shut up about it by two other mods before you posted. Are mods here above directives by other mods? That would seem to be new. Obviously you lot enforce what few rules actually exist around here, but that's not the same as using your position to take shots at a point where the same authority has said others cannot respond.
Quote from: Benoist;715551Sorry to have thoughts of my own about my own religion.
Not the issue. I have my own thoughts, too. I just didn't post them after the others mods asked me not to.
Again, I completely understand why you felt the need to respond, and believe you when you say you weren't trying to do what Sacrosanct is upset about. That doesn't change the fact that it's essentially what you have done.
Quote from: Bobloblah;715554No, he isn't. What you did, perhaps inadvertently, is a major problem on The Other Site.
Maybe you guys care about TBP but I don't. I don't give a flying fuck about TBP and I think people here are paying WAY too much attention about what's going on over there.
If you are saying that I should shut up because I'm a mod, then fuck you. No. Notice *I* didn't tell Sacrosanct to shut up. That's something Brendan and OHT did, which I didn't notice when I posted at first. Maybe I should have just shut up like I do 99% of the time on this site when people run their mouths about the tenets of my religion or how sexual abuse impacts it, which is something I personally, professionally know a little bit about for having worked with the Indian Residential Schools Resolution Canada.
What I don't appreciate here is that instantly the answer to my post was to actually leverage a comparison to TBP and raise modship as sort of "you should do like the others or you're a bad bad mod" instead of actually answering my points. Which is EXACTLY what the asses on TBP do, i.e. game the rules in order to shut down dissenting opinions.
And you want to talk about hypocrisy? OK. Fine. Go ahead. Be my guest.
I'll shut up like a good mod now.
Quote from: Benoist;715556Maybe you guys care about TBP but I don't. I don't give a flying fuck about TBP and I think people here are paying WAY too much attention about what's going on over there.
Okay. For what it's worth, I don't frequent The Other Site, nor do I particularly care about what goes on there. But that's hardly the point. I believe Sacrosanct's point was merely to make the comparison because such things
there are nearly universally condemned
here.
Quote from: Benoist;715556If you are saying that I should shut up because I'm a mod, then fuck you. No.
You have a strong tendency to fling invective and profanity as soon as someone gainsays something you've said. It's really unnecessary.
No one said you should shut up because you're a mod, but because other mods told everyone to shut up. Those of us who aren't mods were abiding (and were expected to abide) by that.
Quote from: Benoist;715556Notice *I* didn't tell Sacrosanct to shut up. That's something Brendan and OHT did, which I didn't notice when I posted at first.
I figured it may have been inadvertent, and acknowledged as much in my previous post. That fact doesn't change events, which is what Sacrosanct was responding to. You even mentioned:
Quote from: Benoist;715556And now I'll just move on from that non-gaming topic. I just had to answer to that, as a Catholic myself.
...which could easily be read to mean you
had seen the other mods' posts and responded as you did regardless of that. There was no way for us to know any differently before you said otherwise.
Quote from: Benoist;715556Maybe I should have just shut up like I do 99% of the time on this site when people run their mouths about the tenets of my religion or how sexual abuse impacts it, which is something I personally, professionally know a little bit about for having worked with the Indian Residential Schools Resolution Canada. But what I don't appreciate here is that instantly the answer to my post was to actually leverage a comparison to TBP and raise modship as sort of "you should do like the others or you're a bad bad mod" instead of actually answering my points.
Well, for myself, I'm not going to address those points because two mods have expressly asked me (us) not to do so. As for whether or not you generally respond to these kinds of remarks or statements, I see that as being neither here nor there for the issue in question. You respond to whatever you choose to respond to. The only time there's an issue is when you do what others have been asked not to do by other mods.
I've already acknowledged that you may have just not seen the previous mod posts, and that the desire to respond to the posts in question is perfectly understandable. You seem to be unable to admit that those don't invalidate the point that was made: there's a problem when mods get to ignore stuff that other mods tell the rest of us to do, regardless of why it happened.
Quote from: Benoist;715556I'll shut up like a good mod now.
Now you sound like my martyr-in-law.
:)
WOW so now I'm lying.
VERY COOL. Thank you.
Can we now get back to petty things?
Wait a minute! :hmm:
Sure. My petty thing? I hate elves that are shorter than humans, as a rule. It makes me think of gawdam Elfquest
Boring names can shake my interest in a product regardless of its other qualities.
"Ok, so you cross the Bloodspill Sea and get deposited on the Shore of Shadows of before setting up camp in the... er, shadow of the Wyrmspine mountains. Tomorrow you will set forth into the Bloodshadow jungle in search of the Blackskull ruins, where Lord Bonedarkfellblade of the Red wyrmskulldeathdoom guild is said to be hiding with his legion of Fireflame Chaosslayers..."
Quote from: Evansheer;715525I find myself hesitant to buy stuff by James Wyatt these days after that bullshit article he did about what is and isn't fantasy. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4wand/20131008)
Not sure if that's petty or if it's just being informed about what he's selling.
Know the feeling. In one article he will come across as well informed, and in the next come off as clueless. Overeager. Or worse, as an opinionated authority.
Depends on how much of the articles make it into Next or not and how far off the tracks things slide or not.
Quote from: James Gillen;715446I believe it was William F. Buckley who said that a Christian was someone who was desperately afraid that someone else out there was actually having a good time.
JG
Quote from: AaronBrown99;715477Wow, what a bigot.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;715489Actually, it sounds like an accurate descriptor of Catholics, not Christians ;) The Catholic Religion is built all around guilt.
And before Aaron throws a fit, I was raised Catholic.
So was William F. Buckley. :D
JG
And just to head it off, sorry about the whole sidetrack.
JG
But to the original topic:
I am turning away from Hero Games, largely because Dan Simon's Hero Designer program has even more problems than I thought it did, and because as a site moderator, he has NO sense of humor. ;)
JG
I don't like zombies. They are really boring. I just don't get the attraction.
Same with vampires. Roleplaying vampires? Really?
Running away from or fighting zombie? What a yawn.
I missed out on late 90s roleplaying, obviously.
Fetishising weapons. That annoys me. The katana is just another sword, it is not that great.
Fate/boon/plot points that give the players or GM a "get out of jail free card". Those annoy me. Lazy tool for people who don't want to deal with the consequences of their in-game actions.
Repetitve text in splat books. I have been parsing the text of AD&Ds Tome of Magic. Whole lot of filler text around the actual meat in that one.
Quote from: BarefootGaijin;715746I don't like zombies. They are really boring. I just don't get the attraction.
Same with vampires. Roleplaying vampires? Really?
Running away from or fighting zombie? What a yawn.
I missed out on late 90s roleplaying, obviously.
Fetishising weapons. That annoys me. The katana is just another sword, it is not that great.
Fate/boon/plot points that give the players or GM a "get out of jail free card". Those annoy me. Lazy tool for people who don't want to deal with the consequences of their in-game actions.
Repetitve text in splat books. I have been parsing the text of AD&Ds Tome of Magic. Whole lot of filler text around the actual meat in that one.
that gives me an idea for a game-
Eternal Grunge Samurai: Zombie-killing vampires of Seattle
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;715650Boring names can shake my interest in a product regardless of its other qualities.
"Ok, so you cross the Bloodspill Sea and get deposited on the Shore of Shadows of before setting up camp in the... er, shadow of the Wyrmspine mountains. Tomorrow you will set forth into the Bloodshadow jungle in search of the Blackskull ruins, where Lord Bonedarkfellblade of the Red wyrmskulldeathdoom guild is said to be hiding with his legion of Fireflame Chaosslayers..."
Conversely the T'oo Ma'ny Apostroph'e Sto'p fantasy name trope needs to die in a nuclear accident.
Quote from: TristramEvans;715647Elfquest
Ugh, please, not while I'm eating.
Oh and to put a name on a dislike: Bruce Baugh. Will avoid any/all Baugh products forever.
And I don't even like Hackmaster all that much.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;715751Conversely the T'oo Ma'ny Apostroph'e Sto'p fantasy name trope needs to die in a nuclear accident.
Yeah, it's a tough balancing act to strike.
"The Gae'sed of the inner Tyoxak are displeased because their sense of Lexnom'akkr was offended when you returned from the Aughyerhat of Enserem with only two Xlom'nui."
The goofy, comically anachronistic setting that Paizo uses for its Pathfinder adventures. It's completely untethered from any notion of myth, history, or even the fantastic. It's just a juvenile pastiche of every geek genre (fantasy, horror, pirates) cliche thrown into a blender and then infused with early 21st century middle class American suburban sensibilities.
Quote from: Haffrung;715766The goofy, comically anachronistic setting that Paizo uses for its Pathfinder adventures.
I think that could be said of Eberon and pretty much all popular literary fantasy. A reaction against that blanding of fantasy is why "weird" sometimes seems so necessary.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;715753Ugh, please, not while I'm eating.
I actually really liked Elfquest. Maybe part of it is nostalgia, but I just reread all the series again less than a year ago.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;715775I actually really liked Elfquest. Maybe part of it is nostalgia, but I just reread all the series again less than a year ago.
I liked it a
lot when I was a kid. Even played the Elfquest RPG back in the day. For me (just for me, ymmv) it did not hold up well.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;715751Conversely the T'oo Ma'ny Apostroph'e Sto'p fantasy name trope needs to die in a nuclear accident.
The Judges Guild
Traveller sectors and adventures have this problem in spades. Or sp'ades.
Quote from: James Gillen;715707So was William F. Buckley. :D
JG
So was I. A Priest once told me a joke where a guy just arrived in heaven and Saint Peter was showing him around. As they went to different areas of Heaven, they came across Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists, and Christians of all types, all of whom were talking quietly. Then they walked past a huge hall where there was loud music and partying going on. The guy asked "Who is that having such a great time?" and St. Peter said, "Shhh, those are the Catholics, they think they're the only ones here." :D Of course it was during a Homily so he had a point to make, but in my experience Priests (especially Irish ones) have a great sense of humor about God and the Catholic religion.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;715835The Judges Guild Traveller sectors and adventures have this problem in spades. Or sp'ades.
I am fine with apostrophes but I do like them to mean something if they are there. Usually I read them as a glottal stop, like the missing Ts in some pronounciations of "bottle" or "button".
Quote from: thedungeondelver;715819I liked it a lot when I was a kid. Even played the Elfquest RPG back in the day. For me (just for me, ymmv) it did not hold up well.
That's how I feel about the Transformers and GI Joe cartoons. They held up much worse than the D&D cartoon, IMO
Quote from: Sacrosanct;715896That's how I feel about the Transformers and GI Joe cartoons. They held up much worse than the D&D cartoon, IMO
Ducktales is a solid re-visit too, and a rich vein of adventure ideas for mining.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;715898Ducktales is a solid re-visit too, and a rich vein of adventure ideas for mining.
Tale Spin, also, especially the seasons that were done in France.
Disney's Aladdin TV show had a surprisingly large amount of theftworthy ideas.
Quote from: BarefootGaijin;715746I don't like zombies. They are really boring. I just don't get the attraction.
I stopped playtesting board games that have the word Zombie in the title or are extolled as zombie games.
The market across the board is horrendously oversaturated with this one subject and variations thereof. About the only area it has not yet started to glut unto is RPGs. Sure, there have been zomvies from the get-go. But so far tabletop RPGs focused on a purely Living Dead theme and nothing else have been few and far between. So far.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;715754Oh and to put a name on a dislike: Bruce Baugh. Will avoid any/all Baugh products forever.
And I don't even like Hackmaster all that much.
Avoid d20 Gamma World like the black plague. "Oh we didnt bother to make that rule in the book. The players will write that stuff for us."
Really good DMG though for any setting as it has lots of usefull advice and methods for new GMs. And some usefull ideas for seasoned GMs too.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;715896That's how I feel about the Transformers and GI Joe cartoons. They held up much worse than the D&D cartoon, IMO
So much of my childhood has been ruined by rewatching old cartoons on DVD. These days I avoid it if I can help it. Which is why Ive fought the urge to get the Jem and the Holograms DVDs.
Jace and the Wheeled Warriors is still as awesome now as it was 25 years ago, though. He-Man had surprisingly good animation, even if it was recycled constantly. The D&D cartoon is still pretty entertaining. And Galaxy High is as good as ever. But 90s stuff holds up much better.
Quote from: TristramEvans;715921So much of my childhood has been ruined by rewatching old cartoons on DVD. These days I avoid it if I can help it. Which is why Ive fought the urge to get the Jem and the Holograms DVDs.
One of the problems I had with watching the D&D cartoon DVD set was that they changed some of the music scores and thus it produced a sort of disparity between what was expected and what got.
Or like with the Spiderman and Hulk cartoons when they started overlaying narrative by Stan Lee. I like Stan and all. But the narrative interruptions really killed it for me even as a kid back then.
Or watching old cartoons like Warner ones after the heavy censorship. Its jarring.
Speaking of. The FOX retooling of the D&D series was another one. Just sitting through the intro. argh.
Never saw the Fox retooling. How did they change the opening?
Quote from: TristramEvans;715940Never saw the Fox retooling. How did they change the opening?
Heres a vid with the various intros. The FOX one is around the 1:58 mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0vgQkUia7c&feature=player_detailpage#t=118 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0vgQkUia7c&feature=player_detailpage#t=118)
I happen to like the Spanish and French song versions at the 5 & 6 min marks.
Quote from: BarefootGaijin;715746I don't like zombies. They are really boring. I just don't get the attraction.
Me neither.
jg
Quote from: Haffrung;715766The goofy, comically anachronistic setting that Paizo uses for its Pathfinder adventures. It's completely untethered from any notion of myth, history, or even the fantastic. It's just a juvenile pastiche of every geek genre (fantasy, horror, pirates) cliche thrown into a blender and then infused with early 21st century middle class American suburban sensibilities.
I'm pretty sure that's the point.
JG
Thirded. Don't get the attraction. I've seen a few good zombie flicks over the years, but much more bad ones and the way they've inundated comics and videogames this decade just bores me. Helll, Id find animated skeletons more interesting.
I wonder how much of it is just people really wanting a guilt-free excuse to fantasize about killing other people.
I think it's partly a sign of how Western civilization has stopped being optimistic about the future, and has become increasingly nihilistic, not just pessimistic.
Quote from: JeremyR;715996I think it's partly a sign of how Western civilization has stopped being optimistic about the future, and has become increasingly nihilistic, not just pessimistic.
Where's Buck Rogers when you need him?
Quote from: TristramEvans;715997Where's Buck Rogers when you need him?
Probably getting a grimdark re-imagining a la Battlestar Galactica.
I'm going to hold my hand up here as a proud zombie lover.
That sounded better in my head.
Quote from: The Traveller;716013I'm going to hold my hand up here as a proud zombie lover.
That sounded better in my head.
A lot of things sound better when they are in other peoples heads.....
no, wait.
Personally love zombie movies. Havent played in too many succesful zombie rpgs that were anything but a one shot though.
Quote from: JeremyR;715996I think it's partly a sign of how Western civilization has stopped being optimistic about the future, and has become increasingly nihilistic, not just pessimistic.
I know right? I treasure the rare media these days that has an unabashed positive outlook*, or even just the basic understanding that history goes in cycles and things do get better.
Fresh nitpick: GURPS (4th edition) gives rules for being fat within the first dozen pages or so.
Rules for being fat. It gives you a bonus on Swimming rolls for example. That's a level of system granularity that borders on parody for me, and every time I consider using the system I remember that detail and recoil from it.
* Unfortunately the so-called "fans" quickly pollute positive IPs too with nitpicky negative certainty that everything must eventually turn to shit, but that's a rant for another day.
To me, the elephant in the room is that zombies are like kender. Useful as action initiators in a story, but they are one trick ponies that get old very quick when used at the game table.
Quote from: JeremyR;715996I think it's partly a sign of how Western civilization has stopped being optimistic about the future, and has become increasingly nihilistic, not just pessimistic.
Sad commentary - though I know many who hold a generally pessimistic view of the future for the majority of humanity, yet hold out hope for some.
Maybe that's why zombie apocalypse is attractive, in that small groups of survivors will inherit the earth, while the rest get eaten.
Quote from: JeremyR;715996I think it's partly a sign of how Western civilization has stopped being optimistic about the future, and has become increasingly nihilistic, not just pessimistic.
I think people watch them for lots of different reasons. Personally i am pretty optimistic about civilization and try to take the long view. With zombies there is just perhaps a bit of survivalist fantasy (though. I am sure I'd be dead or freak out the instant a zombie plague happened). I think i like zombie films for some of the same reasons I watch mad max. There is also the element of confronting your own mortality. And for some reason, zombies just don't stop scaring me.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;716091And for some reason, zombies just don't stop scaring me.
Yeah me too, if they're done right. I'm fairly into bushcrafting too so I enjoy the survival elements, and of course shouting at the screen when the characters inevitably do something stupid.
Quote from: The Traveller;716095Yeah me too, if they're done right. I'm fairly into bushcrafting too so I enjoy the survival elements, and of course shouting at the screen when the characters inevitably do something stupid.
I don't have a survivalist or outdoorsmen bone in my body (i am too fond of running water and comfort) but i find apocalypse survival is a fun envirnment to think about.
I'm finding the recent arguments over whether FATE should be written 'FATE' or 'Fate' really petty and annoying. rpg.net seems to have had a couple of threads randomly derailing as people debate whether calling it FATE is OK. Maybe part of trying to reimagine it as not FUDGE-derived, but in any case its annoying.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;716091With zombies there is just perhaps a bit of survivalist fantasy (though. I am sure I'd be dead or freak out the instant a zombie plague happened)
It's a survivalist fantasy for the types of people who wouldn't last a week in an actual survivalist situation.
And that's coming from someone who is under no illusions about how long they would last post apocalypse. In the movie, my head would have a starring role on the warlord's gatepost.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;716097I don't have a survivalist or outdoorsmen bone in my body (i am too fond of running water and comfort) but i find apocalypse survival is a fun envirnment to think about.
Ah you're missing out, believe me. I'm not what people would think of as a survivalist, being more of the Ray Mears type, but it just so happens that a lot of that stuff is
perfect for doing things like enjoying some of the most unspoiled wilderness left in Europe in a unique way.
Camping under the stars on a balmy night on a rugged island after catching dinner in the lake, seasoned with wild garlic, finding hidden pristine beaches more likely to be associated with the Carribbean than the west coast of Ireland, making your own cordage from nettles and tying up your tent with it, that must surely give anyone a man-squee. I learned most of it from my father, and him from his etcetera, long before the survivalists ever made an appearance.
Short version, survivalists, bushcrafters, and preppers are all different groups with a certain amount of overlap, but there are elements in most zombie movies that would be of interest to each.
Sorry for the offtopic but yeah. :D
I get the attraction. Zombie movies have a particularly good premise: place a group of random normal people in a life-or-death survival situation that is completely unlike anything they could normally conceive of, place them under extreme stress, and watch how the interpersonal relationships form, intensify and break down under increasing existential threat. That's every zombie movie ever[1].
And that's the problem: that's every zombie movie ever. The premise was completely played out when George Romero finished with it in 1978.
There's a theory in film crit that says all horror movies are reflections of the zeitgesit's unspoken fears. I've seen more than one essay opining that the current popularity of zombie movie is the result of a growing pessimism that the US is not going to pull out of its economic death spiral and the result will be hordes of the underclass roaming the streets, rioting and destroying a la New Orleans during Katrina.
There's another theory in film crit that says that the only reason Star Wars was as popular as it was was that it was unashamedly positive, presented simple morality with easily identifiable good guys and bad guys, and the good guys win in the end without feeling guilty about it - at a time when the US was mired in the late 1970's economic malaise/aftermath of Vietnam.
I suppose the West is about due for a positive uplifting morality tale without zombies in it. Certainly Idris Elba's soliloquy in Pacific Rim got people's attention.
[1] Obligatory exception that proves the rule: I Am Legend. Unless you make the entirely reasonable argument that those aren't zombies.
EDIT: ObOnTopic - Steve Kenson annoys me. More specifically, the hero worship he gets annoys me. His career has consisted mostly of ripping off other people's ideas, and he's a demonstrable plagiarist.
Quote from: daniel_ream;716157I get the attraction. Zombie movies have a particularly good premise: place a group of random normal people in a life-or-death survival situation that is completely unlike anything they could normally conceive of, place them under extreme stress, and watch how the interpersonal relationships form, intensify and break down under increasing existential threat. That's every zombie movie ever[1].
And that's the problem: that's every zombie movie ever. The premise was completely played out when George Romero finished with it in 1978.
[1] Obligatory exception that proves the rule: I Am Legend. Unless you make the entirely reasonable argument that those aren't zombies.
EDIT: ObOnTopic - Steve Kenson annoys me. More specifically, the hero worship he gets annoys me. His career has consisted mostly of ripping off other people's ideas, and he's a demonstrable plagiarist.
One reason you see zombies so much in film now is they are dirt cheap to make. Essentially normal people with a bit of makeup usually.
I am Legend had vampires. They were repelled by standard vampire stuff and died/burned in sunlight since it killed the re-animating virus. In the Last Man On Earth move they are called vampires, and act like a combination of vampire and zombie. In Omega Man they normal humans partially resistant to the virus simply going mad slowly as the disease progresses. With some light sensetivity. In the IAL movie they are vampires, But like the LMOE movie, dont do alot of vampirey stuff. Kinda like how the 28 Days later infected are living people that act like fast zombies.
What did Steve Kenson rip off? Havent seen his stuff yet?
Quote from: Omega;716161What did Steve Kenson rip off? Havent seen his stuff yet?
He's the guy behind Icons, IIRC.
And yes, I second the request.
Well, Icons is a "rip off" of MSH, obviously, if you can call any rpg that in the age of the retroclone.
Quote from: TristramEvans;715992Thirded. Don't get the attraction. I've seen a few good zombie flicks over the years, but much more bad ones and the way they've inundated comics and videogames this decade just bores me. Helll, Id find animated skeletons more interesting.
I wonder how much of it is just people really wanting a guilt-free excuse to fantasize about killing other people.
After seeing a few episodes of The Walking Dead where zombies had their heads punctured like egg cartons, I think that is a large part of it.
JG
Quote from: jeff37923;716061To me, the elephant in the room is that zombies are like kender. Useful as action initiators in a story, but they are one trick ponies that get old very quick when used at the game table.
In the last Hero System Bestiary, the point was made that zombies in and of themselves are not a very good adversary, and their purpose is really to be more of the "force of nature" that screws up civilization, revealing that the real horror is what the remaining humans will do to survive.
Which goes along with the nihilism angle.
JG
Quote from: TristramEvans;716188Well, Icons is a "rip off" of MSH, obviously, if you can call any rpg that in the age of the retroclone.
That. Icons is MSH with d10 instead of d100, plus Aspects from FATE.
Second edition M&M is a transparent ripoff of Mayfair's DC Heroes (more accurately the odd small press version called Blood of Heroes); third edition M&M is a transparent ripoff of Champions. I consider that mostly just being terminally uncreative, since games steal ideas from each other all the time. What annoys me about it is that serious mechanical flaws in the system went uncorrected through two editions, despite those flaws being fairly well hashed out on the forum at the time.
In particular, Kenson blatantly copied a post of mine on the M&M forum and re-posted it to his blog without attribution, rewriting one or two sentences to make it look like his own work. I don't really care, it's just a real dick move that lost any respect I once had for him as a designer, and combined with his existing corpus points to a career mostly built on intentional rehashing of other people's work. As a result I won't buy anything with his name on it.
A pity, really because I like Dan Houser personally.
Quote from: James Gillen;716194In the last Hero System Bestiary, the point was made that zombies in and of themselves are not a very good adversary, and their purpose is really to be more of the "force of nature" that screws up civilization, revealing that the real horror is what the remaining humans will do to survive.
That never made sense to me. I mean 99% of humanity is gone, transformed into predatory animals, so the survivors not only have 100 times more food, equipment and supplies than they need, they have absolutely no reason to want to make any more of these predatory animals by killing one another.
Using zombies as an excuse for armchair histrionic psychodrama never struck me as all that clever to be honest. People are essentially cooperative, especially when there are ample resources.
What's not played up enough is the
supernatural and visceral horror of the zombie. Rec and Rec2 did a reasonable job on this, but I like movies where zombies have both a spooky side to them and what I call zombie luck.
That is to say, no matter how secure your fortress is, there's always one either in there or one that found its way in. The zombie will strike when you're at your most vulnerable, leaping out of the bushes. A dull animal cunning if you will, combined with an "as we are you shall be" vibe.
Zombies as a dumb force of nature don't make any sense - unless 99% of the planet suddenly drops dead and rises up a zombie (in which case we're right back to supernatural), there is no way in hell that any amount of dumb animals could overwhelm modern militaries, even in third world countries. Watch Cloverfield for what I'd call a measured military response in these situations. And even then humans would be back on top in short order, we have lots of experience in dealing with dumb animals. So I mean, if your zombies aren't very good adversaries, they really should be.
Quote from: The Traveller;716218unless 99% of the planet suddenly drops dead and rises up a zombie (in which case we're right back to supernatural), there is no way in hell that any amount of dumb animals could overwhelm modern militaries, even in third world countries.
One of the most common complaints about World War Z the novel is that the military never seems to hit on the tactic of driving a heavy vehicle slowly forward.
Quote from: daniel_ream;716252One of the most common complaints about World War Z the novel is that the military never seems to hit on the tactic of driving a heavy vehicle slowly forward.
There's a level in the Trains vs Zombies expansion for Train Simulator 201x where you have to drive a train slowly, through a pack of zombies, with the lights off, in case they notice you and attack your train.
But back to WWZ, it's explained in the Zombie Survival Guide just how hard it is to kill a Solanum zombie; anything but destroying the brain won't do the job, and even a skull alone is potentially dangerous. Someone, at some point, is going to have to wade through that mass of crushed body parts, and they are going to get bitten and infected.
I agree that it's a bit stupid (Of course, had the first military response worked, it would have been a very short book), but it fits the world that was built up.
These days, of course, sniper drones.
On-topic, the stupid "punk" typeface on Cubicle 7's "Cthulhu Britannica" line annoys me greatly. This isn't the 70's, we don't need RPG books looking like a pale imitation of a Sex Pistols record.
Quote from: Ladybird;716265These days, of course, sniper drones.
One fellow in the thread I remember used to serve in the Army artillery corps, and pointed out that they had quite the selection of shells that would have done the trick quite nicely while leaving most of the infrastructure intact.
A worldwide zombie apocalypse really doesn't work absent some other form of catastrophe that simultaneously wipes out a huge proportion of humanity.
Quote from: daniel_ream;716292A worldwide zombie apocalypse really doesn't work absent some other form of catastrophe that simultaneously wipes out a huge proportion of humanity.
Or really evil cunning supernatural zombies. :D
Rec may have been a cross between a zombie movie and The Exorcist but I can see it working.
Quote from: daniel_ream;716292One fellow in the thread I remember used to serve in the Army artillery corps, and pointed out that they had quite the selection of shells that would have done the trick quite nicely while leaving most of the infrastructure intact.
A worldwide zombie apocalypse really doesn't work absent some other form of catastrophe that simultaneously wipes out a huge proportion of humanity.
Speed of infection is one potential problem and, well... cemetery populations.
Fun fact. In some areas the dead are buried in cement "vaults" A big cement box the coffin goes in. Those locales zombies arent likely to ever get out and roam.
My stepfather made and was the burial crew for ones kinda like these. Others were actually casket shaped.
(http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/natural-burial-2.jpg)
Quote from: Omega;716307Speed of infection is one potential problem and, well... cemetery populations.
Fun fact. In some areas the dead are buried in cement "vaults" A big cement box the coffin goes in. Those locales zombies arent likely to ever get out and roam.
My stepfather made and was the burial crew for ones kinda like these. Others were actually casket shaped.
(http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/natural-burial-2.jpg)
To be fair, zombies these days in fiction are infected humans, rather than arisen dead.
Quote from: The Traveller;716218Zombies as a dumb force of nature don't make any sense - unless 99% of the planet suddenly drops dead and rises up a zombie (in which case we're right back to supernatural), there is no way in hell that any amount of dumb animals could overwhelm modern militaries, even in third world countries. Watch Cloverfield for what I'd call a measured military response in these situations.
Or for that matter,
Shaun of the Dead.JG
Quote from: daniel_ream;716292One fellow in the thread I remember used to serve in the Army artillery corps, and pointed out that they had quite the selection of shells that would have done the trick quite nicely while leaving most of the infrastructure intact.
The concussion from HE often causes heads and torsos to disintegrate, the whole "counting hands and feet" thing.
I'm surprised that zombies have got as popular as they are, but I guess it is another way to do the post-apocalypse survivor monomyth. I like them, but I don't take them seriously. Did have a nice incidence in a game where there had been developed a nano-cybernetic re-animator virus, he kept shooting it with his SMG and it kept approaching, he couldn't figure out what was happening and didn't roll good enough for a head shot. Good for just a one shot random happening during refueling.
Quote from: Rincewind1;716308To be fair, zombies these days in fiction are infected humans, rather than arisen dead.
Yep.
28 Days Later in particular comes to mind (of course, personally I'd have preferred it if that one had starred predatory plants instead, but y'know ;)).
Actually no "all the dead dudes rise up" scenarios come to mind when I think of newer zombie fiction.
Quote from: The Ent;716336Actually no "all the dead dudes rise up" scenarios come to mind when I think of newer zombie fiction.
Major example here would be
The Walking Dead. You don't have dead people from before the outbreak rising (to my knowledge), mind, but it's unambiguously established fairly early on in the comic (and is true in the videogame and, so far as I'm aware, the TV show) that people come back as zombies in that more or less completely independently of their cause of death, so the zombies in that are quite definitely animated corpses, not infected humans.
Quote from: Warthur;716339Major example here would be The Walking Dead. You don't have dead people from before the outbreak rising (to my knowledge), mind, but it's unambiguously established fairly early on in the comic (and is true in the videogame and, so far as I'm aware, the TV show) that people come back as zombies in that more or less completely independently of their cause of death, so the zombies in that are quite definitely animated corpses, not infected humans.
True of course! :)
I was thinking, maybe too specifically, of "
all the dead dudes"; TWD seems to have it "all the dead dudes
after the outbreak started". But yeah. And it's one of the fun* things about that series, too - every death produces a zombie, no matter the cause; among other things it makes suicide a
particularily bad option (wich is a good thing, I suppose, considering all the horrible shit the characters go through...).
*=well insofar as TWD is "fun" ;)
Quote from: The Ent;716336Yep.
28 Days Later in particular comes to mind (of course, personally I'd have preferred it if that one had starred predatory plants instead, but y'know ;)).
Actually no "all the dead dudes rise up" scenarios come to mind when I think of newer zombie fiction.
I think from mainstream zombie horrors only Romero did this past the 80s/early 90s. So the main zombie craze (that is, nowadays) is mostly about people turning into zombies due to infection, rather than "When Hell's Full, the Dead Shall Walk the Earth" scenario.
Quote from: Warthur;716339Major example here would be The Walking Dead. You don't have dead people from before the outbreak rising (to my knowledge), mind, but it's unambiguously established fairly early on in the comic (and is true in the videogame and, so far as I'm aware, the TV show) that people come back as zombies in that more or less completely independently of their cause of death, so the zombies in that are quite definitely animated corpses, not infected humans.
There's an assumption in Walking Dead that everyone is infected with the virus already (so the logic'd be that it somehow overtakes your motor functions after your brain shuts off). Of course, there's that little bit of weirdness that if you're bitten, you suddenly start shifting into a zombie quickly. I guess it could be explained by having 2 strains of the virus, or making that virus/bacteria combo etc. etc.
Quote from: Rincewind1;716468There's an assumption in Walking Dead that everyone is infected with the virus already (so the logic'd be that it somehow overtakes your motor functions after your brain shuts off). Of course, there's that little bit of weirdness that if you're bitten, you suddenly start shifting into a zombie quickly. I guess it could be explained by having 2 strains of the virus, or making that virus/bacteria combo etc. etc.
I've always assumed that everyone is infected with the zombie virus, and the zombie bite doesn't infect you with anything that turns you into a zombie, it just poisons you with something deadly.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;716469I've always assumed that everyone is infected with the zombie virus, and the zombie bite doesn't infect you with anything that turns you into a zombie, it just poisons you with something deadly.
D'oh, of course.
Quote from: Rincewind1;716468There's an assumption in Walking Dead that everyone is infected with the virus already (so the logic'd be that it somehow overtakes your motor functions after your brain shuts off). Of course, there's that little bit of weirdness that if you're bitten, you suddenly start shifting into a zombie quickly. I guess it could be explained by having 2 strains of the virus, or making that virus/bacteria combo etc. etc.
Chicken Pox to Zoster.
In a kid this virus acts like Chicken Pox, then goes dormant in the nerve clusters. Then, sometimes under stress, it activates as Zoster and has a rather different effect in an adult. And being around someone with it active can push back sometimes the chances of it activating it seems. Not sure on that last.
Same disease, different effects depending on age and exposure.
I got a crash course in this thing 2 years ago. And man did it hurt!
So with WD youd have in a live person its dormant. But in a dead person it is active, and when a live person is bit it starts converting.
Or the example of the zombifying ant fungus. It is active only in one type of ant and only under the right environment.
Zombie pressure release valve. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=716514)
Petty thing that bugs me about Savage Worlds: The wonky math of its variable dice sizes plus the fact that they can explode is unbearable. I'm not a math geek normally, but the probability charts I've seen make me wince.
Steampunk-anything. Steampunk-katana-wielding-zombies especially.
Really REALLY bad OSR artwork because "retro" feel.
A "buy now" PDF with no "buy the print version" option. Not even "POD? Press here" option.
Drivethru etc might get more money off me if they had that for everything. I like dead tree books.
What annoys me about Hero Games under Steve Long: the same mind that created two excellent editions of the rules, and single-handedly kept the game alive with his relentless work ethic and perfectionism also ruined the game by making it far too verbose, lengthy and off-putting to everyone who doesn't read technical manuals for fun.
Quote from: The_Shadow;716596What annoys me about Hero Games under Steve Long: the same mind that created two excellent editions of the rules, and single-handedly kept the game alive with his relentless work ethic and perfectionism also ruined the game by making it far too verbose, lengthy and off-putting to everyone who doesn't read technical manuals for fun.
Some believe he just wants to get the page count up high enough to stop an AP round... :cool:
I still suffer guilt after buying anything from Hasbro (e.g. playdough) after the whole 4E debacle.
Quote from: Omega;716705Some believe he just wants to get the page count up high enough to stop an AP round... :cool:
This is why 6th Edition now comes in two corebooks, so in addition to wearing Volume 1 as a breastplate, now you have Volume 2 as back armor. :D
JG
It was pre-Youtube &c., but someone did once use the 4th edition hardback to stop a .22 LR round just to prove it could.
Quote from: daniel_ream;716759It was pre-Youtube &c., but someone did once use the 4th edition hardback to stop a .22 LR round just to prove it could.
5th ed vid. One flaw is that they use different rounds in an allready shot up book. It would loose a little or alot of resistance based on where the next round impacted. Otherwise bemusing vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nb1rWQ8kB-g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nb1rWQ8kB-g)
And this thread is what makes RPGSite great! 48 pages on a topic that would be closed in 2-3 pages anywhere else?
Speaking of which...
Marc Miller WILL NOT engage with the public on the internet and has to have other people act as his buffer.
If my grandfather can send an email, so can he. Seriously.........:banghead:
Quote from: BarefootGaijin;716793Speaking of which...
Marc Miller WILL NOT engage with the public on the internet and has to have other people act as his buffer.
If my grandfather can send an email, so can he. Seriously.........:banghead:
That is because he used to engage with the public on the internet, not anymore.
Quote from: jeff37923;716805That is because he used to engage with the public on the internet, not anymore.
Does it have anything to do with Traveller 5 kerfuffle?
Quote from: Rincewind1;716806Does it have anything to do with Traveller 5 kerfuffle?
No, this happened years before. Constantine Thomas/Evil Dr. Ganymede used to stalk him across forums and harrass him relentlessly about
Traveller. Marc Miller just got tired of it and quit hanging out on forums or answering emails from people he didn't know.
It was funny in a gallows humor kind of way. Constantine would publicly completely trash an interview of Marc Miller that was done on a blog and then would honestly wonder why Marc Miller didn't respond to his emails. Constantine Thomas is a very very smart guy with a lot of planetary science knowledge, but he can also show his ass in a way that makes my own worst temper tantrums look pathetic in comparison. Constantine hated
Traveller, especially
Classic Traveller, but had never played the game until a year or so ago - he went for almost a decade hating an RPG he had only read.
After encountering that, Marc Miller just stayed away.
Quote from: jeff37923;716811No, this happened years before. Constantine Thomas/Evil Dr. Ganymede used to stalk him across forums and harrass him relentlessly about Traveller. Marc Miller just got tired of it and quit hanging out on forums or answering emails from people he didn't know.
It was funny in a gallows humor kind of way. Constantine would publicly completely trash an interview of Marc Miller that was done on a blog and then would honestly wonder why Marc Miller didn't respond to his emails. Constantine Thomas is a very very smart guy with a lot of planetary science knowledge, but he can also show his ass in a way that makes my own worst temper tantrums look pathetic in comparison. Constantine hated Traveller, especially Classic Traveller, but had never played the game until a year or so ago - he went for almost a decade hating an RPG he had only read.
After encountering that, Marc Miller just stayed away.
That is fairly common. Designers sometimes develop a very adversarial attitude towards gamers after a few bad instances online or at cons even. Some take it really badly. Some get flak deservedly so then go ballistic.
Some just get tired of answering the same questions over and over.
Some though are under gag orders from publishers. That is fairly common too. And there are a few that SHOULD be under gag orders because their mouths arent helping.
Quote from: Omega;716814That is fairly common. Designers sometimes develop a very adversarial attitude towards gamers after a few bad instances online or at cons even. Some take it really badly.
This is something that's happening to an increasing number of video game designers, book and TV writers, artists, directors, etc. Something has changed in the tone of the relationships between creators and fans in the past ten years, likely attributable to the continuing development of internet "culture". Things have gotten uglier.
At this point, saying "I hope you create something that makes you famous" is starting to sound like a Chinese curse.
Quote from: jeff37923;716811No, this happened years before. Constantine Thomas/Evil Dr. Ganymede used to stalk him across forums and harrass him relentlessly about Traveller. Marc Miller just got tired of it and quit hanging out on forums or answering emails from people he didn't know.
It was funny in a gallows humor kind of way. Constantine would publicly completely trash an interview of Marc Miller that was done on a blog and then would honestly wonder why Marc Miller didn't respond to his emails. Constantine Thomas is a very very smart guy with a lot of planetary science knowledge, but he can also show his ass in a way that makes my own worst temper tantrums look pathetic in comparison. Constantine hated Traveller, especially Classic Traveller, but had never played the game until a year or so ago - he went for almost a decade hating an RPG he had only read.
After encountering that, Marc Miller just stayed away.
Yes, Jeff is 100% correct here; however, Marc will hold conversations over email just fine, or even give you his phone # so you can talk personally. He is rather a straightforward, earnest, yet somewhat taciturn speaker, an average Midwesterner.
Constantine Thomas is an idiot, I won't have anything to do with anything he does, he stalked me as well.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;716840This is something that's happening to an increasing number of video game designers, book and TV writers, artists, directors, etc. Something has changed in the tone of the relationships between creators and fans in the past ten years, likely attributable to the continuing development of internet "culture". Things have gotten uglier.
It's the opposite of the hugo awards. The fandom vote consistently goes to very nice authors who do well on panels at cons, but who write the worst sci-fi imaginable.
Quote from: Omega;716814Some though are under gag orders from publishers. That is fairly common too. And there are a few that SHOULD be under gag orders because their mouths arent helping.
An NDA and a gag order are different things, they're under NDAs which is nothing unusual in any industry these days. In fact I haven't seen a contract without an NDA clause in years. Line workers in factories have NDAs.
Anyway I don't blame designers for not wanting to engage with people on the internet. There's a whole lotta nutzoid batshittery out here, and it tends to get amplified due to the democratisation of speech the web creates. Everyone's voice has equal weight unlike in real life where the looney tunes are marginalised and ignored.
Quote from: dragoner;716843Constantine Thomas is an idiot, I won't have anything to do with anything he does
Constantine Thomas is the classic example of the "science aspie", an academically talented individual who is utterly socially retarded. Very knowledgeable, astute and articulate in his chosen field of study (in his case, planetary geology IIRC) but completely fucking clueless in just about every other way, especially anything to do with social cues or dealing with other human beings. Really, I blame his parents and teachers for induging and enabling that kind of destructive behaviour just because he's "bright". I can't really blame him, he's just acting in the way his mental illness and destructive social circles have conditioned him to act. But I won't have anything to do with anything he publishes in the RPG field, because anyone who employs him (Steve Jackson, I'm looking at you) is likewise enabling his shitty behaviour.
At the same time, while I don't blame a pitfighting dog for being vicious, a pitfighting dog that can't be rehabilitated should be put down for its own sake and that of others. Constantine Thomas is like that dog, except I have less regard for him than the dog.
KoOS
You think this person should be "put down" like a dog because he lacks social graces? That sort of practice will thin out this hobby fast.
Quote from: TristramEvans;716881You think this person should be "put down" like a dog because he lacks social graces? That sort of practice will thin out this hobby fast.
But it will arise from the ashes, stronger than ever before, A New Hobby! From what I'm hearing we can even get government grants from these "death panels". Sweet, sweet taxpayer funded discretionary entertainment cleansing.
Quote from: TristramEvans;716881You think this person should be "put down" like a dog because he lacks social graces? That sort of practice will thin out this hobby fast.
There is "lacks social graces" and then there is clinical misanthropy.
During the night that Hurricane Katrina hit, posters on CotI were discussing how bad it was shaping up to be and wondering how best to donate to the Red Cross and other relief efforts. Constantine Thomas jumped in saying that the residents of New Orleans deserved to all die because they were stupid enough to live on a flood plain and no relief efforts of money or otherwise should be expended. He then did not understand why people found this opinion offensive.
Quote from: jeff37923;716885There is "lacks social graces" and then there is clinical misanthropy.
During the night that Hurricane Katrina hit, posters on CotI were discussing how bad it was shaping up to be and wondering how best to donate to the Red Cross and other relief efforts. Constantine Thomas jumped in saying that the residents of New Orleans deserved to all die because they were stupid enough to live on a flood plain and no relief efforts of money or otherwise should be expended. He then did not understand why people found this opinion offensive.
This.
There's a difference between a dog with a behavioural problem that can be corrected, and a dog that has been bred and trained from birth to be a vicious killing machine and is incapable of living any other existence. Likewise, there's a difference between a person who is somewhat socially awkward, and a person who is utterly incapable of understanding how normal human beings interact socially on a level that achieves even base tolerability for 99% of the population. Constantine Thomas is pretty much the epitome of the lawncrapper, except his lawncrapping isn't limited to the RPG hobby -- it's how he conducts himself in every facet of life that isn't planetary geology.
EDIT to be clear: I think it's legitimate to discuss the economic folly of building a modern city on swampland in a below-sea-level floodplain, but I also think that 99% of human beings understand that raising that topic
on the eve of Hurricane Katrina, in a discussion about relief efforts, is in extremely poor taste at best. Doing so in the context of suggesting that relief efforts are misguided and everyone in New Orleans deserves to die is so far beyond the pale of social acceptability that it beggars belief.
FTR, I don't seriously think he should be euthanized, but it probably would be best for everyone if he were to live in complete seclusion and his only contact with other humans was mediated through some sort of executive assistant, who is tremendously patient and diplomatic and motivated by either saintliness or a breathtaking amount of money.
KoOS
Quote from: King of Old School;716876Constantine Thomas is the classic example of the "science aspie", an academically talented individual who is utterly socially retarded. Very knowledgeable, astute and articulate in his chosen field of study (in his case, planetary geology IIRC) but completely fucking clueless in just about every other way, especially anything to do with social cues or dealing with other human beings. Really, I blame his parents and teachers for induging and enabling that kind of destructive behaviour just because he's "bright". I can't really blame him, he's just acting in the way his mental illness and destructive social circles have conditioned him to act. But I won't have anything to do with anything he publishes in the RPG field, because anyone who employs him (Steve Jackson, I'm looking at you) is likewise enabling his shitty behaviour.
At the same time, while I don't blame a pitfighting dog for being vicious, a pitfighting dog that can't be rehabilitated should be put down for its own sake and that of others. Constantine Thomas is like that dog, except I have less regard for him than the dog.
KoOS
I was side swiped in the whole deal, I actually registered for his forum, not knowing the deal. Then he blew up at me when I mentioned what some propulsion engineers (read: rocket scientists) from Neil Armstrong Hall casually mentioned to me over a pint about any mission to mars. Thomas claimed they didn't know what they were talking about, my reply was "really?" and I let out enough rope for him to hang himself. Then I was banned for telling him off after being warned after he deleted the discussion. It's true about social graces, don't tell an engineer from Purdue that engineers from Purdue don't know what they are talking about without expecting someone to get riled, plain sense really.
Even his best buddy told me that I was bound to be banned anyways. Not that Thomas wasn't banned from Mongoose, Gurps and the Google plus groups, though he has weaseled his way back in.
Here is the most classic moment though, always good for a laugh: Constantine said I was being elitist by RPG.net rules for judging an rpg by actually playing it. :D
Quote from: The Traveller;716884But it will arise from the ashes, stronger than ever before, A New Hobby! From what I'm hearing we can even get government grants from these "death panels". Sweet, sweet taxpayer funded discretionary entertainment cleansing.
Euthanasia doesn't work that way.
Quote from: jeff37923;716885There is "lacks social graces" and then there is clinical misanthropy.
During the night that Hurricane Katrina hit, posters on CotI were discussing how bad it was shaping up to be and wondering how best to donate to the Red Cross and other relief efforts. Constantine Thomas jumped in saying that the residents of New Orleans deserved to all die because they were stupid enough to live on a flood plain and no relief efforts of money or otherwise should be expended. He then did not understand why people found this opinion offensive.
The only way he could one - up that would be if he'd mention that he saw no problem, because they were mostly Black communities that were affected.
Quote from: jeff37923;716811No, this happened years before. Constantine Thomas/Evil Dr. Ganymede used to stalk him across forums and harrass him relentlessly about Traveller. Marc Miller just got tired of it and quit hanging out on forums or answering emails from people he didn't know.
It was funny in a gallows humor kind of way. Constantine would publicly completely trash an interview of Marc Miller that was done on a blog and then would honestly wonder why Marc Miller didn't respond to his emails. Constantine Thomas is a very very smart guy with a lot of planetary science knowledge, but he can also show his ass in a way that makes my own worst temper tantrums look pathetic in comparison. Constantine hated Traveller, especially Classic Traveller, but had never played the game until a year or so ago - he went for almost a decade hating an RPG he had only read.
After encountering that, Marc Miller just stayed away.
THAT explains a lot. Thank you!
I like the guy, but somebody with Mark Miller's email needs to tell him publishing shit on CD-ROM makes him look like a fucking idiot, somebody's retarded grandpa.
If he opened up all of Classic Traveller to DTRPG, he'd sell a whole lot more.
It is on DTRPG, but with the CD, you get 128 pdf's and other files for $35, all unlocked. Plus he sells them 443 or buy three and get the fourth for free, he sent a bad link in his newsletter, and I pointed it out, then I ordered the CD-ROM of the Challenge magazines, list for $45 with the 443 deal, and he gave me the most expensive one for free; how cool is that? He likes to maintain everything himself, he lost control over a bunch of Traveller stuff with the sale of DGP, which he doesn't want to happen again. He does pretty good for a non-tech guy in his mid-60's, in maintaining his site.
Quote from: Benoist;715546...
And now I'll just move on from that non-gaming topic. I just had to answer to that, as a Catholic myself.
And sincerely, that answer just raised my respect level of the church a couple more notches. With the new pope and reasonable, well spoken people like you I might find myself attending mass one of these days!
Quote from: CRKrueger;716944I like the guy, but somebody with Mark Miller's email needs to tell him publishing shit on CD-ROM makes him look like a fucking idiot, somebody's retarded grandpa.
If he opened up all of Classic Traveller to DTRPG, he'd sell a whole lot more.
Amen. Mind boggling indeed.
Thread Tax: (just kidding...)
Over enthusiast claims of excellence: I wish this hobby-industry had a slightly higher (more difficult) entry barrier. Every Tom, Dina and Harry can create - THE NEXT BIG THING with revolutionary never before seen game mechanics that actually change your DNA and cure cancer - kind of nonsense ad nauseum. I don't mind some enthusiasm, but for the love of the 12 gods of hyperbole could we take it down a notch or two? Wait. That diatribe had too many notches of hyperbole. Ah fuck it, a little hypocrisy is good for the soul.
*Dial Tone*: You make a game, announce a new project, fund a kickstarter, tease about the cool supplement for your game, make a forum post, share some "upcoming" news and then promptly drop of the face of the fucking Earth. Fuck this slaps my balls in all the wrong ways. Make a short checklist/plan for communicating with your fans/supporters/customers. It's not rocket science. If you suck at it, hire a PR person BEFORE you jerk one out and spew your manic-infused moment of clarity all over the InterTubes. Just shut the fuck up until you can put two sentences together about your thing. A passing "I've been working on something in my spare time..." is common for many, but when you venture into press-release, kickstarter territory, you can't treat these things like a passing remark. People should have the integrity to followup and keep in touch (especially when money is invested).
If you can't manage that, then please don't expect me to a) respect you and b) buy your stuff. Asshats shouldn't be paid to be asshats.
I have a long list, but I should probably limit my responses to preserve my sanity (and time)...
Quote from: James Gillen;715709But to the original topic:
I am turning away from Hero Games, largely because Dan Simon's Hero Designer program has even more problems than I thought it did, and because as a site moderator, he has NO sense of humor. ;)
JG
As a (presumed) human being, he has no sense of humor.
Or tact.
Or customer service skills.
Or...
Quote from: trechriron;716959*Dial Tone*: You make a game, announce a new project, fund a kickstarter, tease about the cool supplement for your game, make a forum post, share some "upcoming" news and then promptly drop of the face of the fucking Earth. Fuck this slaps my balls in all the wrong ways. Make a short checklist/plan for communicating with your fans/supporters/customers.
I got to say that Gun Metal Games has been spot on with their Interface Zero 2.0 Kickstarter. It has had 90 Updates since January, averaging pretty close I believe to 2 updates a week since they started. And he responds constantly in the comments to each update every step of the way.
It really makes me feel like my money didn't disappear into a dark pit, even if they are running slightly behind plan.
Quote from: trechriron;716959*Dial Tone*: You make a game, announce a new project, fund a kickstarter, tease about the cool supplement for your game, make a forum post, share some "upcoming" news and then promptly drop of the face of the fucking Earth. Fuck this slaps my balls in all the wrong ways. Make a short checklist/plan for communicating with your fans/supporters/customers. It's not rocket science. If you suck at it, hire a PR person BEFORE you jerk one out and spew your manic-infused moment of clarity all over the InterTubes. Just shut the fuck up until you can put two sentences together about your thing. A passing "I've been working on something in my spare time..." is common for many, but when you venture into press-release, kickstarter territory, you can't treat these things like a passing remark. People should have the integrity to followup and keep in touch (especially when money is invested).
If you can't manage that, then please don't expect me to a) respect you and b) buy your stuff. Asshats shouldn't be paid to be asshats.
Hey! That sounds like a veiled personal attack..! Oops, wrong thread, wrong website. Sorry, carry on as before.
Quote from: jeff37923;716811Constantine Thomas/Evil Dr. Ganymede . . .
Fuck that guy.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;715550So what happens when a MOD says "stop talking about this off topic stuff" and another mod continues the conversation?
I'm not saying you intended this Benoist, but it comes very much across like TBP, where Mods get the last word in without worrying about being responded to.
For example, I would normally have replied, "Any time asking for forgiveness is a key aspect of a religion, that infers that you've done something wrong. That's what forgiveness means. And anytime you're being told you've done something wrong, that implies you should feel guilty about it, especially when you're told you're still being a bad person by not following the specific process of asking for forgiveness. And I would posit that any time you have a common term (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_guilt) for something, there's truth behind it."
"Bad Person"? No.
Catholicism does have the concept of "sin". Doing things one knows are wrong or evil does more then just affect the physical world, it places one's soul out of communion with god. It does not make one a bad person, it makes one a human being. All humans sin. By accepting the sin, admitting the sin, taking responsibility for one's sin through confession, the person is, through the priest, asking God for forgiveness and unburdening one's mind, and putting one's soul back into communion with god.
The Rite of Confession is not there to perpetuate guilt. The Rite of Confession is there to alleviate the natural human guilt that arises from knowing you have sinned and done wrong against yourself, your neighbor, your community or your god. It removes guilt. It sets one free.
I've found most people who target the Catholic religion on the concept of guilt are those who don't look too closely at themselves, and don't like the fact that they're doing shit they shouldn't. Moral relativism and self above all are so much more convenient these days. ;)
Of course, not being a currently practicing Catholic, the church and I don't see eye to eye on the list of everything that constitutes a sin.
Jesus mate. 8 days ago we got by the derail and now you continue it.
Take it all to PM if you really want to carry this on.
Quote from: One Horse Town;717420Jesus mate.
Jesus only needed 3 days to continue his derail, be fair.
Quote from: One Horse Town;717420Jesus mate. 8 days ago we got by the derail and now you continue it.
Take it all to PM if you really want to carry this on.
Sorry. Guess I can necro-threadjack with the best of them.
Quote from: Rincewind1;717423Jesus only needed 3 days to continue his derail, be fair.
But his supporters have been derailing in the hope of His return for over 2 thousand years. Buckle up.....
Quote from: One Horse Town;717420Jesus mate. 8 days ago we got by the derail and now you continue it.
Take it all to PM if you really want to carry this on.
Who wants to be interrogated on Catholic dogma? It's not like I was expecting a Spanish Inquisition!
Jesus loves the little gamers...
All the gamers of the world!
Filled with warm air, hope or spite.
They are precious in his sight.
Jesus loves the little gamers of the WORLD!!!
Quote from: Rincewind1;717423Jesus only needed 3 days to continue his derail, be fair.
:rotfl:
Some other major irks...
Players that act like cultists towards a company.
Games Workshop is the prime example of this. But other companies have their share too. Some cultists devolve into bootlicking apologists. Which can get REALLY old REALLY fast. And a few come across like they either want to get in the designers pants... or wear their skin...
Players with an axe to grind who just make stuff up to bitch about the company they hate. Stick to the actual stuff they are doing wrong rather than flying off on some fantasy hate trip and coming across as a nut rather than a valid complaint.
Players who hate a game because someone told them to. Which is about every other moron bitching about some element of D&D or Monopoly. Read the rules, play the game, or just even talk to actual players. Otherwise shut the hell up.
etc ad nausium.
Quote from: Omega;717633Players with an axe to grind who just make stuff up to bitch about the company they hate. Stick to the actual stuff they are doing wrong rather than flying off on some fantasy hate trip and coming across as a nut rather than a valid complaint.
People who throw the baby out with the bathwater. "This book is 80% solid and 20% highly personal nit-picks. Conclusion: This book sucks, the company is going downhill, they are the new George Lucas."
Actually, in passing let me also say I really dislike the "new George Lucas" line.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;717713People who throw the baby out with the bathwater. "This book is 80% solid and 20% highly personal nit-picks. Conclusion: This book sucks, the company is going downhill, they are the new George Lucas."
Actually, in passing let me also say I really dislike the "new George Lucas" line.
To be fair. Sometimes that 20% can be a real kill point for some. Especially if the problem spots were things the player/buyer was looking forward to. Or just seems senselessly "there". Everyone has their odd triggers.
I only just experienced this one:
I changed my mind on purchasing a game once I saw that the fellow who wrote it had socio-political views diametrically opposed to my own.
Yeah, I should just let it go. Who cares what he thinks in those areas? Who cares what I think? Why and how should that have any bearing on gaming and having fun?
Somehow it did.
I make a wish now to either be wholly ignorant of all gaming developers' political views or informed 100% about all of them. No in-betweens. ...though I favor being blissfully ignorant in that area.
What's perhaps more amusing is the game (Hero Kids) looked like so much fun and so...I dunno...full of life somehow and yet I don't even have kids of my own so I really don't have a good reason to buy it anyway.
Swords & Wizardry: WhiteBox: since it shifted back to Mythmere Games the new cover drives me a bit nutty (it has gray bars at the top and bottom of the cover image).
Back when it was being finalized, Matt mentioned on the S&W forums how it would end up and why (he didn't wish to distort Pete Mullen's art, which is a worthy reason).
At the time I attempted to convince him of various alternatives or at least use a white border, but nope. So now it's uglier than it deserves, which makes me sad.
Also the back cover. I like that the artist, but the illustration is a poor choice.
....aaannnd the fact that there are still all those ghost lines in some of the tables. Make me itch.
Since the decision was made for WhiteBox to be 'given to the fans' (read: abandoned), there was never any intention to correct or change anything since then.
Quote from: MachFront;718716I only just experienced this one:
I changed my mind on purchasing a game once I saw that the fellow who wrote it had socio-political views diametrically opposed to my own.
Yeah, I should just let it go. Who cares what he thinks in those areas? Who cares what I think? Why and how should that have any bearing on gaming and having fun?
Somehow it did.
I make a wish now to either be wholly ignorant of all gaming developers' political views or informed 100% about all of them. No in-betweens. ...though I favor being blissfully ignorant in that area.
What's perhaps more amusing is the game (Hero Kids) looked like so much fun and so...I dunno...full of life somehow and yet I don't even have kids of my own so I really don't have a good reason to buy it anyway.
Swords & Wizardry: WhiteBox: since it shifted back to Mythmere Games the new cover drives me a bit nutty (it has gray bars at the top and bottom of the cover image).
Back when it was being finalized, Matt mentioned on the S&W forums how it would end up and why (he didn't wish to distort Pete Mullen's art, which is a worthy reason).
At the time I attempted to convince him of various alternatives or at least use a white border, but nope. So now it's uglier than it deserves, which makes me sad.
Also the back cover. I like that the artist, but the illustration is a poor choice.
....aaannnd the fact that there are still all those ghost lines in some of the tables. Make me itch.
Since the decision was made for WhiteBox to be 'given to the fans' (read: abandoned), there was never any intention to correct or change anything since then.
I have walked away from games, blogs and YouTube channels because I and their creators hold radically different world views. Sometimes what belief a person holds truly matters. And if I consider that belief system to be toxic, I want nothing to do with them.
Quote from: Tetsubo;718718I have walked away from games, blogs and YouTube channels because I and their creators hold radically different world views. Sometimes what belief a person holds truly matters. And if I consider that belief system to be toxic, I want nothing to do with them.
There's always the "what is my money actually going to support?" question too. If a creator holds a belief vehemently enough there's decent odds that they're going to spend money to support it - donating to political campaigns, extremist parties or whatever - and it'd trouble me to think that some of the money I spent on someone's work might go to that.
Ultimately, if I don't think I could stomach buying a beer for someone in person, I'm certainly not going to do it at one step removed by buying their stuff.
Quote from: Warthur;718729There's always the "what is my money actually going to support?" question too.
That's more or less how my brain reacted I suppose.
But wouldn't it be odd were it the other way around?
I mean, I can't imagine going to a blog or forum that encompassed something that I supported politically/socially/economically and a guy there stated he was writing a book or something on the subject...but before I bought it I realized he loved a rpg I couldn't stand, or that he hated gamers or something. I doubt my reaction would be to vow to never buy his book.
Also, I have friends who are politically my opposites. I didn't call off the friendship due to that.
Maybe that's not nearly the same... I guess if I already was well invested in loving a game and then I learned of the author's views it would not be a big deal to me. It would seem this 'petty' thing would/will only affect potential purchases. ?
Quote from: MachFront;718731Also, I have friends who are politically my opposites. I didn't call off the friendship due to that.
Maybe that's not nearly the same... I guess if I already was well invested in loving a game and then I learned of the author's views it would not be a big deal to me. It would seem this 'petty' thing would/will only affect potential purchases. ?
I guess it's a function of how invested you are in the relationship in the first place and how big a lurch it would be to sever it (it's really no skin off your nose to stop buying a particular game designer's stuff but could be a big deal in your social life to abandon a particular friend) and how obnoxious they are about it, and how extreme the particular individual's quirks are.
I mean, you've got friends who disagree with you about politics, but on the other hand I would be surprised if you were friends with a bunch of dyed-in-the-wool, hardcore neo-Nazis - you don't strike me as the Stormfront type. Some political beliefs lend themselves to vastly more obnoxious behaviour than others, and the fact that you are able to retain a friendship with those people suggests that both you and they are the sort of folk who don't substantially define themselves by their political outlook and are capable of having productive relationships in which politics is set to one side.
There's a big difference between "Brad's an OK dude, but I'm never going to talk to him about abortion again because it creates too much bad feelings on both sides" and "Brad
would be an OK dude if he'd ever
shut the fuck up about his ideas about abortion". Which sort of bleeds into people's creative products; an author with obnoxious political views but who doesn't express them very often in their writing is a different proposition from an author who has an axe to grind and never, ever fails to grind it as loudly as they possibly can in their stories.
True.
I guess my example(s) weren't really of a 1:1 nature.
It really is a matter of degrees as you suggest.
This fellow certainly wasn't what I'd position in the obnoxious category. But his views just....rubbed me the wrong way. It somehow immediately deflated my enthusiasm. Even as I reacted that way I recognized what I was doing was at least touching the realm of petty.
I doubt I'd stop talking to various folk I don't personally know on some other forums I frequent...like GlockTalk or something because they might think the film "The Haunting" (1963) is shit. They'd be jaw-droppingly wrong of course. ;) But I wouldn't cut ties.
Unless the writer or publisher is expressing views I feel are dangerously exremist (like the neo-nazi example) I am not going to allow their politics to interfere with my enjoyment of a product. Now if their politics interfere with the quality of the product that is different. I don't care what your political viewpoint is, and whether I agree with it, but I don't like my rpgs to contain political arguments or observations.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;718738Unless the writer or publisher is expressing views I feel are dangerously exremist (like the neo-nazi example) I am not going to allow their politics to interfere with my enjoyment of a product. Now if their politics interfere with the quality of the product that is different. I don't care what your political viewpoint is, and whether I agree with it, but I don't like my rpgs to contain political arguments or observations.
Now, see? I even understand that that's the way I should rationally consider it. After all, the writer in question isn't inserting his views into the product in any manner I can discern, so why in the hell should I allow it to color what is, as far as I can tell, a great product? It's crazy petty!
Quote from: MachFront;718731That's more or less how my brain reacted I suppose.
But wouldn't it be odd were it the other way around?
I mean, I can't imagine going to a blog or forum that encompassed something that I supported politically/socially/economically and a guy there stated he was writing a book or something on the subject...but before I bought it I realized he loved a rpg I couldn't stand, or that he hated gamers or something. I doubt my reaction would be to vow to never buy his book.
Also, I have friends who are politically my opposites. I didn't call off the friendship due to that.
Maybe that's not nearly the same... I guess if I already was well invested in loving a game and then I learned of the author's views it would not be a big deal to me. It would seem this 'petty' thing would/will only affect potential purchases. ?
RPGs are a hobby. If someone has a different hobby I don't consider that a deal breaker. But politics? I *have* walked away from friends because they have held a political belief that I consider toxic. I apply something I call the Stranger Test. If I knew a stranger that did this, would I approve? If the answer is no, I don't approve of my friend doing it either. And since we can't change another person all I can do walk away.
Quote from: MachFront;718740Now, see? I even understand that that's the way I should rationally consider it. After all, the writer in question isn't inserting his views into the product in any manner I can discern, so why in the hell should I allow it to color what is, as far as I can tell, a great product? It's crazy petty!
Certain ideologies and their demagogues make deliberate and strenuous efforts to insert themselves into every part of your brain, so you're unable to see anything except through their lens.
What you're struggling with there my friend is breaking free of totalitarianism.
I bet I could have a blast playing AD&D with Jeff, but as soon as he started talking politics, I'd have to leave ;)
Quote from: Sacrosanct;718758I bet I could have a blast playing AD&D with Jeff, but as soon as he started talking politics, I'd have to leave ;)
The real world takes a back seat when I am gaming and the only politics I discuss then are those of the setting and how they apply to the characters.
You'd be safe from my subversive poltics. ;)
Quote from: Tetsubo;718750But politics? I *have* walked away from friends because they have held a political belief that I consider toxic.
I used to do that, but as the years roll by (and I'm not even all that old yet) I've found that all my friends eventually pick up some idea or another I consider "yeck". That said, with maturity they're also getting better at not shoving those ideas in people's faces, so I'm inclined to compromise before I end up with, like, two friends and no one to game with.
I'm not immune to cognitive dissonance either. I find deep-end free market purist views disturbingly utopian in a "up is down, black is white, evil is good" sort of way, yet one of my favorite books is James Clavell's
Noble House, which is all about that in spades.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;718782I used to do that, but as the years roll by (and I'm not even all that old yet) I've found that all my friends eventually pick up some idea or another I consider "yeck". That said, with maturity they're also getting better at not shoving those ideas in people's faces, so I'm inclined to compromise before I end up with, like, two friends and no one to game with.
s.
I have found the same thing as i get older. People i may have been on the same page with ten or twelve years ago have evolved and ended up in a different place than me politically. To me holding the same political views has never been the foundation of friendship. In fact, i find it more interesting when there is some disagreement. Again, unless it is something truly radical and dangerous, i don't see much value in avoiding friendships or giving up friends because of political differences.
Yeah same. If said views are not actively harmful or bigoted or whatnot, I tend not to care. If we're stepping into active extremist outrageous bullshit territory, I'll walk away.
With that said, I think some designers wish they had it both ways, in the sense that they'd like to have personal name recognition and put their own self out there to be credited for their work, while avoiding to be judged for who they are. That's hypocritical to me. Either you create product and leave it at that, or you start putting your self out there, make stands on various gaming and non-gaming related issues in your name and/or through your products, and should therefore be ready to be judged for them.
Cue Bruce Baugh and his meltdown over Hackmaster, Monte Cook and his not being negative ever, The Strange "we're all strange" ad campaign, Forgists vomiting on us and Pundit puking right back at them, and so on.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;718782. . . one of my favorite books is James Clavell's Noble House . . .
Good call.
That book inspires much of how I think about the Third Imperium.
Quote from: Tetsubo;718718I have walked away from games, blogs and YouTube channels because I and their creators hold radically different world views. Sometimes what belief a person holds truly matters. And if I consider that belief system to be toxic, I want nothing to do with them.
There's a difference between "toxic" and "doesn't agree with me." For instance, I dislike Duck Dynasty (to use a recent example) not because of their fundamentalist beliefs but because when I watched that show (at a friend's house) it made me feel like my brain cells were leaking out of my ears. Not that the two things aren't related. ;)
JG
A pet peeve of mine is metaplots going out of hand and changing the basic setting assumptions too much, sometimes making the game less appealing as original selling points get removed and cool plot hooks get resolved by NPCs. This is my pet peeve with Shadowrun 4E (and maybe 5E - haven't read it yet) - too much of the cool original retro-1980's insanity gets toned down to attract the iPhone generation (I want my keyboard-C-Deck back!), and many of the cool 1E/2E plots (Earthdawn crossovers! bug spirits! Deus! Japanese occupation of California!) get resolved for the most part, and the replacements are less appealing to me.
Maybe this is just an extension of what golan said but what peeves me is change for changes sake, or something which is strictly a change for marketing purposes. Okay, my bullet list, which goes mostly towards maintaining your current user base. Some of these are overlapping, but I believe they can be segmented out.
- Putting out a new edition that's only very roughly compatible with the previous version; brand identification is more than just saying "its part of our brand"
- Killing off or radically modifying something for procedural reasons of business without considering basic wisdom in business (ie turning your big supporter PAIZO into your biggest competitor)
- Putting out a new edition that makes fundamental style changes only to acquire new customers who have little or no experience with tabletop RPGs (ie 4th edition targeting the MMO generation)
- Putting out a new edition that makes changes to acquire new customers with some experience with tabletop RPGs and in the process overcomplicating the system (what concerns me about story game influence on 5th edition and other games)
- Putting out a new edition just because everyone else puts out new editions every X number of years
- Overloading a new edition with new rules that are designed to either increase the price of the product by requiring additional special devices (funky dice, minis, etc), or to drive sales of some other product which isn't so successful
- Putting out a new version of an old campaign setting which completely changes it AGAIN AND AGAIN, using some contrived catastrophe, to justify changes that come about in a rules update (Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance).
Quote from: Lynn;718995Maybe this is just an extension of what golan said but what peeves me is change for changes sake, or something which is strictly a change for marketing purposes. Okay, my bullet list, which goes mostly towards maintaining your current user base. Some of these are overlapping, but I believe they can be segmented out.
- Putting out a new edition that's only very roughly compatible with the previous version; brand identification is more than just saying "its part of our brand"
- Killing off or radically modifying something for procedural reasons of business without considering basic wisdom in business (ie turning your big supporter PAIZO into your biggest competitor)
- Putting out a new edition that makes fundamental style changes only to acquire new customers who have little or no experience with tabletop RPGs (ie 4th edition targeting the MMO generation)
- Putting out a new edition that makes changes to acquire new customers with some experience with tabletop RPGs and in the process overcomplicating the system (what concerns me about story game influence on 5th edition and other games)
- Putting out a new edition just because everyone else puts out new editions every X number of years
- Overloading a new edition with new rules that are designed to either increase the price of the product by requiring additional special devices (funky dice, minis, etc), or to drive sales of some other product which isn't so successful
- Putting out a new version of an old campaign setting which completely changes it AGAIN AND AGAIN, using some contrived catastrophe, to justify changes that come about in a rules update (Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance).
I agree with all of those and consider none of them petty.
Delicate flowers who act like the stuff that'd not be out of place for a mainstream horror film is Too Hardcore for RPGs. I'll take unwashed nerds any time over the new breed of emotionally fragile people who start to flock to this hobby, and start to crusade in it. The former can be at least cured with a bit of deodorant.
Cartoonish art. Almost kept me from buying the Dresden Files RPG. I really don't mind no art, but corny art is annoying.
Quote from: Daztur;721672Cartoonish art. Almost kept me from buying the Dresden Files RPG. I really don't mind no art, but corny art is annoying.
**
Soylent Green casually hides his own game from plain sight **
Quote from: Daztur;721672Cartoonish art. Almost kept me from buying the Dresden Files RPG. I really don't mind no art, but corny art is annoying.
Interesting; what turned me off of the Dresden Files
books was the fact that the whole metaphysics of the setting felt like the rules for an RPG rather than a real organic metaphysic. The breaking point was when Harry creates an ice bridge by casting a fireball straight up, because, you know, Conservation of Energy. :banghead:
Quote from: Rincewind1;721669Delicate flowers who act like the stuff that'd not be out of place for a mainstream horror film is Too Hardcore for RPGs. I'll take unwashed nerds any time over the new breed of emotionally fragile people who start to flock to this hobby, and start to crusade in it. The former can be at least cured with a bit of deodorant.
Hell yes agreed.
Quote from: Daztur;721672Cartoonish art. Almost kept me from buying the Dresden Files RPG. I really don't mind no art, but corny art is annoying.
Also agreed allthough the art in DF isn't bad and kinda fits the setting (plenty of comedy in DF after all).
But yeah, while I'm less harsh on RPGs than comics* bad art is a turn-off.
Quote from: Rincewind1;721669Delicate flowers who act like the stuff that'd not be out of place for a mainstream horror film is Too Hardcore for RPGs. I'll take unwashed nerds any time over the new breed of emotionally fragile people who start to flock to this hobby, and start to crusade in it. The former can be at least cured with a bit of deodorant.
Actually, it's mostly veteran gamers who were complaining about that monster. It's certainly far from the best Pathfinder's ever had, though not the worst, either.
Really, I'm mostly tired of thin-skinned dorks who can't stand the slightest criticism of their favorite monsters before they start wailing bitterly about being oppressed by the "SJWs" which apparently are like 90% of the hobby or something now. If you're that fragile, it's probably a good thing you're not directly targeted by bullshit sexism and stuff, eh? You might melt.
There's a thin line between "slightest criticism" and "stupid criticism"
Quote from: Rincewind1;721669Delicate flowers who act like the stuff that'd not be out of place for a mainstream horror film is Too Hardcore for RPGs. I'll take unwashed nerds any time over the new breed of emotionally fragile people who start to flock to this hobby, and start to crusade in it. The former can be at least cured with a bit of deodorant.
We have today's winner right here folks.
Quote from: Rincewind1;721669Delicate flowers who act like the stuff that'd not be out of place for a mainstream horror film is Too Hardcore for RPGs. I'll take unwashed nerds any time over the new breed of emotionally fragile people who start to flock to this hobby, and start to crusade in it. The former can be at least cured with a bit of deodorant.
Honestly see no reason to game with either. I prefer functional adults.
Not that I honestly believe most of the people who freak out about these issues online are gamers anyways. I think the 90s with White Wolf and the advent of the internet created the substantial parallel hobby of people who read and theorize about RPGs rather than playing them.
Quote from: Zeea;721705Actually, it's mostly veteran gamers who were complaining about that monster. It's certainly far from the best Pathfinder's ever had, though not the worst, either.
Really, I'm mostly tired of thin-skinned dorks who can't stand the slightest criticism of their favorite monsters before they start wailing bitterly about being oppressed by the "SJWs" which apparently are like 90% of the hobby or something now. If you're that fragile, it's probably a good thing you're not directly targeted by bullshit sexism and stuff, eh? You might melt.
Can any of you fucks have one discussion without lying about either the position of your opponent or indeed the context of that discussion?
Basically all you've done is prove that you're not worth anyone's time in engaging with and will make stuff up wholecloth in a lame attempt to paint those you disagree with in as bad a light as possible.
Whose favourite monster is it? Name names or it didn't happen.
Quote from: One Horse Town;721713Basically all you've done is prove that you're not worth anyone's time in engaging with and will make stuff up wholecloth in a lame attempt to paint those you disagree with in as bad a light as possible.
Look at who I'm arguing with and his typical post, and then say that again to me with a straight face. :)
Quote from: Zeea;721716Look at who I'm arguing with and his typical post, and then say that again to me with a straight face. :)
The post you responded to was a reasonable reflection of the debate about the Pathfinder monster.
So who said it's their favourite monster, Rincewind? Others?
and yes, this is my straight face.
Quote from: Zeea;721716Look at who I'm arguing with and his typical post, and then say that again to me with a straight face. :)
Rincewind1...well there's a reason why Pundit upon closing threads has been known to add "because that ********************* ********* *************!!! Rincewind1 doesn't get to get the last word". ;)
Allthough that's not to say I agree with Zeea on this, obviously. Nor do I hate on Rince (allthough he's frequently a bit silly). But, well. Point to Zeea on this one, I have to say in all fairness.
Quote from: The Ent;721721But, well. Point to Zeea on this one, I have to say in all fairness.
Not even close.
My favourite monster is The Nuckelavee. It even has its own theme song from the Bard's Tale videogames :D
Quote from: One Horse Town;721725Not even close.
Well not on the SJW thing, but on the Rince thing.
Quote from: One Horse Town;721720The post you responded to was a reasonable reflection of the debate about the Pathfinder monster.
So who said it's their favourite monster, Rincewind? Others?
and yes, this is my straight face.
"Favourite" is hyperbole, which is apparently the only thing Rincewind understands judging by some of his own posts. I'm not going to post an rpg.net-style 500 word essay to argue with Rincewind. I've posted my good faith essays plenty in the past. The hyperbole and taunting comes out when I'm arguing with someone beyond reasoning.
Now, talking to people other than Rincewind? This may be surprising but I thought the monster was okay and if that's the big problem with Pathfinder now, then they're on the right track, because that pings maybe a 0.1 on my 1 to 10 problematic scale. Not to bash Almaz at all, but I think the initial post was maybe a little strongly stated. I mean, the monster's a bit problematic but really not that bad. "A bit problematic" doesn't mean "awful omg ban this stuff." It just means handle with care. I've had far worse monsters in my own games and I'm pretty solidly one of the SJW crowd.
Actually, I really do kinda dislike the monster's CR 25, because it seems a bit wrong at that level. I've always been a big fan of high level games, but this monster seems more thematically appropriate at around CR 7 or so, geared for a really difficult combat against a level 3-4 party after a great deal of suspenseful buildup. (Maybe a monster movie worth of buildup.)
You can still have horror at epic levels, but it's epic horror and feels more fantastic and less gritty. This feels more like the sort of low level horror from Slither.
Quote from: Zeea;721728"Favourite" is hyperbole, which is apparently the only thing Rincewind understands judging by some of his own posts. I'm not going to post an rpg.net-style 500 word essay to argue with Rincewind. I've posted my good faith essays plenty in the past. The hyperbole and taunting comes out when I'm arguing with someone beyond reasoning.
How on earth did you come to the conclusion that he's beyond reasoning?
The post you quoted was pretty reasonable. A few cheap shots (which is fine here) but there was nothing that was obviously framed as an outright lie to prove a point. Your post had that.
Call it hyperbole if it makes you feel better.
Oh yeah, here people get called out on their bullshit. ;)
Welcome to the forum!
Quote from: TristramEvans;721726My favourite monster is The Nuckelavee. It even has its own theme song from the Bard's Tale videogames :D
I like the PF rapey-pregnancy-monster thing.
I had adventurers try and rescue villagers from satyr who were systematically raping them in a magic circle though.
I nailed a PC to a ceiling and had him bleed on two other PCs while they hate-fucked each other in a pool of semen and excrement. Bit railroady, on reflection.
Quote from: One Horse Town;721732How on earth did you come to the conclusion that he's beyond reasoning?
Because I've been reading the gaming threads on here for quite some time, off and on, and a few others. He seems to have a pretty big grudge and randomly injects it in odd places.
And yes, I fully expect to be called out here and wouldn't have signed up if I wasn't expecting that.
That being said, there's been some decent gaming discussion and I've enjoyed that. :)
Quote from: BarefootGaijin;721735. . . they hate-fucked each other in a pool of semen and excrement.
Sounds like last Saturday night.
Quote from: BarefootGaijin;721735I like the PF rapey-pregnancy-monster thing.
I had adventurers try and rescue villagers from satyr who were systematically raping them in a magic circle though.
I nailed a PC to a ceiling and had him bleed on two other PCs while they hate-fucked each other in a pool of semen and excrement. Bit railroady, on reflection.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/1TrueSledge/i-see-what-you-did-there-spiderman-_zps664889d8.png)
Quote from: Zeea;721737Because I've been reading the gaming threads on here for quite some time, off and on, and a few others. He seems to have a pretty big grudge and randomly injects it in odd places.
And yes, I fully expect to be called out here and wouldn't have signed up if I wasn't expecting that.
That being said, there's been some decent gaming discussion and I've enjoyed that. :)
He just wants to always be the center of attention. That's what ignore lists are for.
Quote from: Zeea;721705Actually, it's mostly veteran gamers who were complaining about that monster. It's certainly far from the best Pathfinder's ever had, though not the worst, either.
I'm a veteran gamer of 32 years and I'm complaining about the SJW reaction on RPG.net to the monster which you have embodied below with the rest of your post. Also, outside of RPG.net, I don't see that kind of bullshit
Quote from: Zeea;721705Really, I'm mostly tired of thin-skinned dorks who can't stand the slightest criticism of their favorite monsters before they start wailing bitterly about being oppressed by the "SJWs" which apparently are like 90% of the hobby or something now. If you're that fragile, it's probably a good thing you're not directly targeted by bullshit sexism and stuff, eh? You might melt.
Quote from: BarefootGaijin;721735I like the PF rapey-pregnancy-monster thing.
I had adventurers try and rescue villagers from satyr who were systematically raping them in a magic circle though.
I nailed a PC to a ceiling and had him bleed on two other PCs while they hate-fucked each other in a pool of semen and excrement. Bit railroady, on reflection.
Are you just annoyed you didn't get to do your version of "The Joke" for the movie "THE ARISTOCRATS" ?
You still can't top the version that Bob Saget did....
- Ed C.
Quote from: Koltar;721864Are you just annoyed you didn't get to do your version of "The Joke" for the movie "THE ARISTOCRATS" ?
You still can't top the version that Bob Saget did....
- Ed C.
Bog Saget's version is twice as funny simply because he was the dad from Full House. :)
Quote from: Koltar;721864Are you just annoyed you didn't get to do your version of "The Joke" for the movie "THE ARISTOCRATS" ?
You still can't top the version that Bob Saget did....
- Ed C.
I live in a bubble. I have to go and google all that.
Oh I see! Could be applied to the OSR movement.
"A game designer walks into the publishers office...."
Quote from: BarefootGaijin;721917I live in a bubble. I have to go and google all that.
Oh I see! Could be applied to the OSR movement.
"A game designer walks into the publishers office...."
If your only familiar with Bob Saget from full house you are in for a surprise. He is one of
bluest comics around. Now back to your scheduled thread.
Gilbert Gottfried topped Saget's version (and everyone else's) by a mile. It was epic. Nothing compared to his audiobook of 50 Shades of Grey though
With Saget I always get the feeling he's trying too hard.
The political views of an author and supporting their works is a sticky subject. I have read that people don't want to play Eclipse Phase because the Politics of the authors is too apparent. Meanwhile, Ender's Game gets discussed and potentially discounted by viewers because Orson Scott Card hold views (not apparent in the film adaptation of the book it seems) they find objectionable.
Then we get to people called James and how they upset certain cliques with their politics and Politics.
TL;DR no right answer IMHO.
I get irked by players paying lip-service to something and then their actions undermine them. The lack of self-awareness and lack of honesty really gets my goat.
I talk about this in gaming terms but it is something that can be seen in many areas of life.
In gaming terms it manifests as excitement toward 'wanting something different' and then when the crunch comes 'reverting to form'. A tired old argument from me. Maybe the players I know have been in Japan too long?
Honne and tatemae are Japanese words describing the contrast between true feelings and desires, and behaviour and opinions displayed in public.
Or, if you are culturally insensitive like me "being a two-faced piece of gaijin shit". Well actually, it basically means I don't ask people to do things for me anymore. Not here anyway.
TL;DR 2 - Players piss me off with their entrenched conservative attitudes.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;715751Conversely the T'oo Ma'ny Apostroph'e Sto'p fantasy name trope needs to die in a nuclear accident.
That tendency in fantasy fiction was lampooned rather nicely in Neal Stephenson's
Reamde (by comparing and contrasting two different styles of fantasy writing through their respective R. A. Salvatore-esque and J. R. R. Tolkien-esque avatars, both working on the same fantasy MMORPG IP).
Haven't finished reading the thread yet (the above post distracted me, and it's late and I need to get back to work). For my petty issues... I won't play
GURPS or
CHAMPIONS because of the number crunching involved. I know that both games are very well done, and make for excellent reading material, but I just can't get behind the math. That's all on me.
I absolutely adore
Cyberpunk 2020, but I won't touch 3rd edition due to the aforementioned terrible artwork in the core book.
Conversely, I thought
Cybergeneration had some great ideas and very cool new rules implementations, but never suggested playing it with my gaming group for fear that they would think I was a bit off for wanting to try a game where the PCs are adolescents.
I'm incredibly gunshy about buying board games that are translated from another language into English after picking up a Fantasy Flight
Marvel Super Heroes board game whose rules were translated - horrifically - from Spanish into English. The game was effectively unplayable out of the box. Seriously; I tried to play it with a group consisting of a physics PhD, a historian / comp sci graduate, a psych / religious studies graduate, an interpreter for the deaf, and a baker (plus me). Every one of us had been gaming for at least twenty years. None of us could make heads or tails of it.
I am a hardcore devotee of Lovecraft and associated writers (my wife just bought us a trip to Providence to stay in the house from "The Shunned House" along with a fancy walking tour of the town presented through the lens of HPL and his fiction for my birthday, for example, and I'm trying to decide if I should re-read all four of the biographies of HPL I currently own, plus his letters, or just selections from some of them before we go). As such, if any material (game, creator, flavor text, concept, or GM) deviates from Lovecraft purism I have to grit my teeth in order to get through it. Most likely I just won't play.
I've always wanted to try out the
Marvel SAGA RPG, but just can't bring myself to put weight behind the card deck mechanic. It just seems silly to me.
Speaking of mechanics, I find it really quite difficult to invest any interest in diceless games in general. Yes, I know there are excellent diceless RPGs out there (both "indie" and "traditional", or whatever the terms currently are). I simply can't bring myself to play any of them; I need the randomized number generator resolution mechanic in one way or another or else I just don't know what to do with myself.
I'm sure there's more (I am a very petty person, after all). I'll think on it and post more if I can remember any. :)
Quote from: Warthur;716339Major example here would be The Walking Dead. You don't have dead people from before the outbreak rising (to my knowledge), mind, but it's unambiguously established fairly early on in the comic (and is true in the videogame and, so far as I'm aware, the TV show) that people come back as zombies in that more or less completely independently of their cause of death, so the zombies in that are quite definitely animated corpses, not infected humans.
I think
The Walking Dead (by which I mainly mean the comic, but the show, the novels, and the Telltale video game too) only works due to the fact that Kirkman put in a fiat that in universe the concept of a zombie
does not exist. The reason the outbreak wasn't rapidly contained was nothing more than the fact that it was an Out of Context Problem - no one on Earth had ever even conceived of something like an animated, hostile corpse, and as such they had no meaningful way to respond fast enough.
Now in the really real world, of course, a zombie (Romero-esque non-supernatural) rising would be rather swiftly dealt with. I absolutely adore zombie fiction in all of its forms, but I'm rational enough to admit that the parity with our world lacks a certain verisimilitude. :)
Quote from: Rincewind1;721669Delicate flowers who act like the stuff that'd not be out of place for a mainstream horror film is Too Hardcore for RPGs. I'll take unwashed nerds any time over the new breed of emotionally fragile people who start to flock to this hobby, and start to crusade in it. The former can be at least cured with a bit of deodorant.
Quote from: Zeea;721705Actually, it's mostly veteran gamers who were complaining about that monster. It's certainly far from the best Pathfinder's ever had, though not the worst, either.
Really, I'm mostly tired of thin-skinned dorks who can't stand the slightest criticism of their favorite monsters before they start wailing bitterly about being oppressed by the "SJWs" which apparently are like 90% of the hobby or something now. If you're that fragile, it's probably a good thing you're not directly targeted by bullshit sexism and stuff, eh? You might melt.
I'm tired of both sides, to be honest, and wish I could hear less from either camp. You don't like the X (where "X" is the monster, character class, in-game restriction, what-have-you) in Y RPG, or think it wouldn't gel well with the gamers that tend to sit around tables with you? That's cool. Don't use it. Or use it with caveats like upfront consent, etc. Do like it? That's also cool. Roll with it in your games to your heart's content.
But for God's sake stop acting like your way is the Only Best Way in existence. Neither side of the argument are awful people. Neither side is destroying the hobby. Neither side has the ultimate panacea that will fix RPGing. Just stop flapping your gums and making mountains out of molehills. Play the way you want to - everybody who disagrees will play in their own way. That's the way
it should be.
FYI, the above is, I admit, petty on my part to complain about. Such is the theme of the thread.
Quote from: BarefootGaijin;721970I have read that people don't want to play Eclipse Phase because the Politics of the authors is too apparent.
What politics are those, if I may ask?
QuoteMeanwhile, Ender's Game gets discussed and potentially discounted by viewers because Orson Scott Card hold views (not apparent in the film adaptation of the book it seems) they find objectionable.
Eh, I tried to read the book and couldn't stand it. Prose nothing to write home about, I found the ideas involved trite, and the core story (coming of age in what's basically an eccentric school setup, complete with bullies and hazing) dull and uninteresting. There's plenty of reason to dislike Ender's Game without getting into Card's toxic politics.
Quote from: Warthur;721999What politics are those, if I may ask?
To be honest, I can't remember where I saw the discussion. If I can source it I will (but beware it might be 4chan's /tg/). The focus was on the outer-rim communities and the reputation economy. I think the gist was it was a bit too airy-fairy and anti-capitalist for the liking of the people discussing it. Whatever.
Quote from: Warthur;721999There's plenty of reason to dislike Ender's Game without getting into Card's toxic politics.
Agreed for truthiness.
Oh, another thing that bugs me, LCGs (living card games) and card games in general. I bought and tried to like the Call of Cthulhu card game. Boring as fuck. Nice art. Good production values. Piss poor in-play yawn-fest.
Quote from: Warthur;721999Eh, I tried to read the book and couldn't stand it. Prose nothing to write home about, I found the ideas involved trite, and the core story (coming of age in what's basically an eccentric school setup, complete with bullies and hazing) dull and uninteresting. There's plenty of reason to dislike Ender's Game without getting into Card's toxic politics.
This might be a case of this:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeinfeldIsUnfunny
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;722005This might be a case of this:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeinfeldIsUnfunny
Ah, TVTropes. The website which kills readers, steals their forum account, and posts links to itself in lieu of actual reasoned argument.
A probably petty thing that really bothers me about games, though it won't stop me from buying an otherwise interesting game, is when the fucking apostrophes in the text are in all the wrong places, and there was apparently no budget to get an editor to fix this. It just looks retarded. And it's really not that fucking difficult, people! In fact, out of all the spelling conventions apostrophes are just about the easiest thing to get right. :mad:
Same goes for forum posts, but that's not the subject of this thread. ;)
Yeah, our hobby seems to suffer from a dearth of competent editors. Ive been tempted since the 90s to put out a book just called "Page XX" that addresses every reference to 'see page xx' in rpgs from the last 30 years.
Quote from: TristramEvans;722018Yeah, our hobby seems to suffer from a dearth of competent editors. Ive been tempted since the 90s to put out a book just called "Page XX" that addresses every reference to 'see page xx' in rpgs from the last 30 years.
Technically the "page XX" issue would be the final proofreader's responsibility to catch. The editors work with pre-layout manuscripts in which the page numbers haven't yet been finalized.
Quote from: Herr Arnulfe;722022Technically the "page XX" issue would be the final proofreader's responsibility to catch. The editors work with pre-layout manuscripts in which the page numbers haven't yet been finalized.
I wasnt really distinguishing between editing and proofreading, but fair enough.
Quote from: 3rik;722017A probably petty thing that really bothers me about games, though it won't stop me from buying an otherwise interesting game, is when the fucking apostrophes in the text are in all the wrong places, and there was apparently no budget to get an editor to fix this. It just looks retarded. And it's really not that fucking difficult, people! In fact, out of all the spelling conventions apostrophes are just about the easiest thing to get right. :mad:
Same goes for forum posts, but that's not the subject of this thread. ;)
Yeah, incorrect use of apostrophe's bugs me too.
Quote from: TristramEvans;722023I wasnt really distinguishing between editing and proofreading, but fair enough.
Well part of the problem I guess is that companies don't always engage proofers. Or else they ask their editors to pull double-duty as proofers so they're reviewing the final layout after having already been through it upteen times before. Or they aren't being clear with proofers about what to look for (e.g. final content check vs. syntax check).
Quote from: One Horse Town;722024Yeah, incorrect use of apostrophe's bugs me too.
I see what you did there. Very annoying. ;)
Quote from: Warthur;721999What politics are those, if I may ask?
Eh, I tried to read the book and couldn't stand it. Prose nothing to write home about, I found the ideas involved trite, and the core story (coming of age in what's basically an eccentric school setup, complete with bullies and hazing) dull and uninteresting. There's plenty of reason to dislike Ender's Game without getting into Card's toxic politics.
Hells bells, I didn't even know Card went this bonkers until you two mentioned it. Still like Ender's Game though.
Quote from: BarefootGaijin;722004To be honest, I can't remember where I saw the discussion. If I can source it I will (but beware it might be 4chan's /tg/). The focus was on the outer-rim communities and the reputation economy. I think the gist was it was a bit too airy-fairy and anti-capitalist for the liking of the people discussing it. Whatever.
Jovians are a heavy - handed criticism of Bush era, to the point that I think even Moore and Ennis would wince. I mean come on, Reagan cylinders?
Quote from: Géza Echs;721976I'm tired of both sides, to be honest, and wish I could hear less from either camp. You don't like the X (where "X" is the monster, character class, in-game restriction, what-have-you) in Y RPG, or think it wouldn't gel well with the gamers that tend to sit around tables with you? That's cool. Don't use it. Or use it with caveats like upfront consent, etc. Do like it? That's also cool. Roll with it in your games to your heart's content.
But for God's sake stop acting like your way is the Only Best Way in existence. Neither side of the argument are awful people. Neither side is destroying the hobby. Neither side has the ultimate panacea that will fix RPGing. Just stop flapping your gums and making mountains out of molehills. Play the way you want to - everybody who disagrees will play in their own way. That's the way it should be.
FYI, the above is, I admit, petty on my part to complain about. Such is the theme of the thread.
I'll be sure to tell you when someone starts a boycott of Stavropoulos and demand his employers stop working with him, because he's making the hobby too sensitive, or that someone demands convention panels on sexism in RPGs to be pulled. You know, like Desbrough and trying to get Escapist to stop with I Hit it With my Axe (and I admit I gave Zack a fair bit of unnecessary shit for riding that former porn star edge, but I didn't say his very work is amoral). And I purposefully use Zack here, because from what I remember, it was some of the more hardcore grogs that attacked him.
Quote from: TristramEvans;722018Yeah, our hobby seems to suffer from a dearth of competent editors. Ive been tempted since the 90s to put out a book just called "Page XX" that addresses every reference to 'see page xx' in rpgs from the last 30 years.
I wouldn't blame the editors, it is probably more to so with companies not being able to hire enough editors. I used to work in an editorial office, and most rpg companies can't afford the rates for the number of editors and the amount of time each editor needs to invest. Editors are kind of like bass players, people don't notice them until they screw up or aren't present.
Quote from: Warthur;722012Ah, TVTropes. The website which kills readers, steals their forum account, and posts links to itself in lieu of actual reasoned argument.
All that aside, did the substance of what I linked to address your issue with
Ender's Game? I'll admit I could be mistaken, but even if Scott Card is an asshole that book is broadly considered to have merit for a reason and has likely been imitated to the point that people might not be able to tell the cliche from the original.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;722035I wouldn't blame the editors, it is probably more to so with companies not being able to hire enough editors. I used to work in an editorial office, and most rpg companies can't afford the rates for the number of editors and the amount of time each editor needs to invest. Editors are kind of like bass players, people don't notice them until they screw up or aren't present.
True, if you check the credits of RPG books there's usually one editor (often one of the writers or developers pulling double-duty) and a proofer is rarely even credited.
I have some really silly petty stuff in games.
Designer-wise, I tend to separate 'Designer's Attitude' from 'Designer's Work.' I've liked plenty of musicians, for example, whom I don't necessarily agree with on a personal level. When stuff becomes outright hate-group stuff, then I tend to peel off; at that point I no longer wish to support them. But if like, a writer happens to be conservative or something and I like what they write(which usually means they keep their personal views out of their writing), I'm generally fine. Same with companies, really.
Games? Oh yeah, lots of petty stuff. Like-D&D 4e, I houseruled elves when they added the second stat to +Dex, +Wis or +Str. Why? Eladrin are the 'Int Elves.' Sylvan Elves needed some representing. They did not need two sets of Int Elves. Sylvan/Wood elves have always been +Strength since they've been introduced in D&D to my memory. Why they didn't bring them back is beyond me, and apparently it's the same thing for 5e and it's stupid; why did they change Wood Elves to + Wis? They were perfectly functional as ranging as usually +Dex, with other odds and ends like Strength and Int depending if they were thinky elves or fighty elves. Bah. Petty, yes, but it somehow irritates the hell out of me.(Even in the old days when they were a race and there were no stat bonuses, Elves' prime requisites were Int and Strength. They have never, to my memory, been a Wisdom race.)
I also tend to not really care about Iconics. I don't like, boycott games that use them, and I don't like hate that they exist, and I don't mind sample characters/archetypes(think Shadowrun style; stats, a blurb, and a pic), since they're good for teaching people the ropes/getting fast characters. Named and storied Iconics I think just use up a bunch of unnecessary time and space. My world is different; I have my own folks that would fill those roles, and I just call them NPCs. If you want to write adventures with named NPCs and stuff by all means do so(speaking to companies here) for flavor, but hmm. Dunno why I find Iconics annoying. Again, this is a petty thread, and it's petty, so I figure it can go here.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;722038All that aside, did the substance of what I linked to address your issue with Ender's Game? I'll admit I could be mistaken, but even if Scott Card is an asshole that book is broadly considered to have merit for a reason and has likely been imitated to the point that people might not be able to tell the cliche from the original.
Nah, I'm pretty sure a lot of the coming of age stuff in Ender's Game had been covered more than adequately by Heinlein juveniles etc.
Quote from: Herr Arnulfe;722041True, if you check the credits of RPG books there's usually one editor (often one of the writers or developers pulling double-duty) and a proofer is rarely even credited.
And I find editing one's own work is pretty tough to do well (sone folks can do it, but I have never been able to).
Editing is also not much of a priority for folks. As a publisher you rarely hear complaints about editing (and when people do point it out they usually emphasize it is just a minor quibble----unless it is catastrophic in some way). More often you get complaints about art, layout, mechanics, concepts, printing errors, etc. So when people balance their costs they will naturally gravitate toward the things that get attention.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;722046And I find editing one's own work is pretty tough to do well (sone folks can do it, but I have never been able to).
Bringing the point home like nobody's business.
:p
Pro proofers arent necessary. I always hand my pages to 5 geeks along with red pens and offer them a beer for every error they find.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;722046Editing is also not much of a priority for folks. As a publisher you rarely hear complaints about editing (and when people do point it out they usually emphasize it is just a minor quibble----unless it is catastrophic in some way). More often you get complaints about art, layout, mechanics, concepts, printing errors, etc. So when people balance their costs they will naturally gravitate toward the things that get attention.
I think that's largely because editing in RPGs is often defined as grammar and spell-checking, when in fact a good editor also fixes organization, content and flow. And the average reader can't distinguish between poor writing and poor editing. So if the grammar and spelling are fine, people assume the editing is OK, even if the material is a slog to read through.
On the flipside, you also get the "everyone's a writer" syndrome in RPG's, especially small press stuff, where people assume their writing doesn't require any editing because they can string a decent sentence together. And in cases where the editor really
has improved the writing, readers have no way of telling the difference.
Good text editing is possibly even more invisible and thankless than video editing. Nobody talks about the great editing in movies, despite many films having been salvaged in the edit suite.
Quote from: Herr Arnulfe;722055Nobody talks about the great editing in movies, despite many films having been salvaged in the edit suite.
Salvaged?
The vast majority of movies are MADE in editing. ;)
Quote from: Herr Arnulfe;722055I think that's largely because editing in RPGs is often defined as grammar and spell-checking, when in fact a good editor also fixes organization, content and flow. And the average reader can't distinguish between poor writing and poor editing. So if the grammar and spelling are fine, people assume the editing is OK, even if the material is a slog to read through.
On the flipside, you also get the "everyone's a writer" syndrome in RPG's, especially small press stuff, where people assume their writing doesn't require any editing because they can string a decent sentence together. And in cases where the editor really has improved the writing, readers have no way of telling the difference.
Good text editing is possibly even more invisible and thankless than video editing. Nobody talks about the great editing in movies, despite many films having been salvaged in the edit suite.
Working in an editorial office, I learned a good editor helps you improve your work regardless of how good you might already be. First, do no harm, then help the writer improve strengths and diminish weaknesses. That is an involved process though and often beyond the pay grade of a typical rpg editor (I am thinking here of several back and forths with a single document where the editor really helps the writer with things like structure, style, focus, clarity of ideas, and flow).
Quote from: Exploderwizard;722058Salvaged?
The vast majority of movies are MADE in editing. ;)
I'm reminded of some commentaries Gene Wilder made about
Young Frankenstein (or maybe it was Mel Brooks who said it, but it could've been either of them). Anyway, when the movie was turned over to the editor and he watched the rough cut he called them all in and said "What I have here is two and a half hours of awful film. Give me a week and I can give you about two hours of bad film. Give me three weeks and I can give you about two hours of great film."
The rest, as they say, is history.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;722049Bringing the point home like nobody's business.
:p
That is going in the sig.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;722060I'm reminded of some commentaries Gene Wilder made about Young Frankenstein (or maybe it was Mel Brooks who said it, but it could've been either of them). Anyway, when the movie was turned over to the editor and he watched the rough cut he called them all in and said "What I have here is two and a half hours of awful film. Give me a week and I can give you about two hours of bad film. Give me three weeks and I can give you about two hours of great film."
The rest, as they say, is history.
I often wonder if editing is why Mel Brooks later movies are so much less enjoyable than his earlier ones (the difference between blazing saddles and young frankenstein versus Dracula: Dead and loving it and Life Stinks is pretty huge).
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;722062I often wonder if editing is why Mel Brooks later movies are so much less enjoyable than his earlier ones (the difference between blazing saddles and young frankenstein versus Dracula: Dead and loving it and Life Stinks is pretty huge).
I've often wondered the same thing. Honestly,
Spaceballs was the last really good thing he did and it drags in places (not many though).
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;722062I often wonder if editing is why Mel Brooks later movies are so much less enjoyable than his earlier ones (the difference between blazing saddles and young frankenstein versus Dracula: Dead and loving it and Life Stinks is pretty huge).
Interesting point, and I think you might be right. Though I'd also say that he fell into the same problem that Tarantino does right now - making the same film, in different genre.
Quote from: Rincewind1;722065Interesting point, and I think you might be right. Though I'd also say that he fell into the same problem that Tarantino does right now - making the same film, in different genre.
But i was fine with him doing that as long as it was funny and held my interest (same with tarantino, his last few movies have been similar but i have enjoyed them all). brook's earlier movies were similar but funny, while Dracula: Dead and Loving It was so bad it is one of two movies i walked out of in my entire life.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;722059Working in an editorial office, I learned a good editor helps you improve your work regardless of how good you might already be. First, do no harm, then help the writer improve strengths and diminish weaknesses. That is an involved process though and often beyond the pay grade of a typical rpg editor (I am thinking here of several back and forths with a single document where the editor really helps the writer with things like structure, style, focus, clarity of ideas, and flow).
Absolutely, that's why writers need to hand in the most polished draft they can,
especially if they have a good editor. Good editors get juiced by bringing B-level writing up to an A or A+. Give them C-level writing and you're likely to get a B-level final product, because their talent and energy is being squandered on "gruntwork" passes for which the effort isn't usually worth the reward.
Quote from: Rincewind1;722029I'll be sure to tell you when someone starts a boycott of Stavropoulos and demand his employers stop working with him, because he's making the hobby too sensitive, or that someone demands convention panels on sexism in RPGs to be pulled. You know, like Desbrough and trying to get Escapist to stop with I Hit it With my Axe (and I admit I gave Zack a fair bit of unnecessary shit for riding that former porn star edge, but I didn't say his very work is amoral). And I purposefully use Zack here, because from what I remember, it was some of the more hardcore grogs that attacked him.
Did you miss it when I said I was tired of the SJWs and wanted them to shut up too? That was my point - I'm sick of both sides going on about their Way To Save The Hobby, Why Protectionism / Free Speech Is Best, and Why So-And-So Is Wrong And Evil. Both sides have awful people in them. Both sides, in the main, are made of perfectly good people. Saying "shut up and get on with your lives" to both extremes isn't somehow favoring one side over the other. Indeed, it would seem obvious to me that saying "shut up" to both includes saying "stop with your ludicrous calls to boycott" to one - only in a less pithy manner.
Plus, you know, the whole post is a petty gripe on my part. In keeping with the thread.
Quote from: Azzy;722043Sylvan/Wood elves have always been +Strength since they've been introduced in D&D to my memory.
Wait,
what?
Quote from: The Butcher;722140Wait, what?
Quote from: 1e AD&D MM, p. 40, "Elf"Wood Elf: Sometimes called sylvan elves, these creatures are very reclusive and generally (75%) avoid all contact. Wood elves are more neutral than are other elves. They are unusually strong for elves (add +1 to all die rolls, treating 19 as 18). but they are not quite as intelligent (treat 18 intelligence as 17).
I can't speak to other editions.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;722058Salvaged?
The vast majority of movies are MADE in editing. ;)
Every Best Picture and Best Director Oscar should include by default a second statue for the Editor.
Quote from: CRKrueger;722151Every Best Picture and Best Director Oscar should include by default a second statue for the Editor.
I don't think it's a coincidence that every time they announce the nominees for Best Editing, they've typically been nominated or won a half-dozen times before. One of the must-haves for any big successful picture is having one of the 4 or 5 top editors in Hollywood on board.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;722150I can't speak to other editions.
Thanks. I somehow missed that.
In any case, a +Str +Dex sylvan elf race for 4e would make some amazing melee-oriented Ranger. Pity WotC missed that.
Quote from: The Butcher;722167I somehow missed that.
[martial arts movie dub voice] YOUR GROGNARD FU IS WEAK! MY GROGNARD FU IS SUPERIOR! [/martial arts movie dub voice]
Ah, yes, petty gripes about writing?
Most gamers can only consciously notice artifacts of poor line editing. Broken sentences, typos, bad punctuation, and the like. That's fine, and games need to have decent line editing.
Most gamers can subconsciously notice poor writing or overall editing. They'll get frustrated with rambling or disjointed text, or slowly become fatigued as they read. But they generally won't consciously realize that it's poor writing or editing, especially if the line editing was decent.
This means that people subconsciously like the really good writing and dislike the really poor stuff, but don't mention it in their reviews or commentary on the game. They'll mention art quality and maybe layout, but good writing is a big deal for me and it's very hard to get a real preview of it before I buy.
Bad writing and editing are contagious, influencing the next generation of writers and editors. Good writing and editing, on the other hand, goes sadly unappreciated despite being really important to making useful products. Which means there's less incentive to get it right beyond professional pride unless you're one of the veterans who has finally made people sit up and notice the quality (Ken Hite, for instance.)
The end result is that I have a lot of good RPGs that are marred by slow, rambling presentation or ludicrously complex sentences*. While I can certainly read and reread games like that until I understand them, it's frustrating when I can't grasp large sections in one go. Whereas I tend to really give games a chance when they have good writing, even when the mechanics or setting aren't my favorite.
*I'm not a big fan of academic writing either, because quite a few professors seem to believe, through some confusion of things which must have been learned prior to the current time--which is to say the time of writing--that in all circumstances, save for those that mandate brevity, that ludicrously complex sentences with poor concept flow--to say nothing of overuse of prepositional phrases and constant interruptions--are, in essence, an amazingly effective way to demonstrate competency and skill. (See what I did there?)
Quote from: Zeea;722191*I'm not a big fan of academic writing either, because quite a few professors seem to believe, through some confusion of things which must have been learned prior to the current time--which is to say the time of writing--that in all circumstances, save for those that mandate brevity, that ludicrously complex sentences with poor concept flow--to say nothing of overuse of prepositional phrases and constant interruptions--are, in essence, an amazingly effective way to demonstrate competency and skill. (See what I did there?)
You need to toss at least one word or phrase of arcane jargon in there as well as at least one reference to another book to get Prof-cred.
Quote from: Zeea;722191Most gamers . . .
Quote from: Zeea;722191Most gamers . . .
Quote from: Zeea;722191This means that people. . .
Quote from: Zeea;722191. . . quite a few professors . . .
:p
Quote from: Zeea;722191(See what I did there?)
More than you realize.
Don't know if this was mentioned yet, but I had the Dungeon Crawl Classics book for a while. I thought the book was great, but one complaint I had was that the sentences went right into the gutter of the book (if that's the correct term). Made reading more difficult than it should have been for me.
Quote from: The Butcher;722167Thanks. I somehow missed that.
In any case, a +Str +Dex sylvan elf race for 4e would make some amazing melee-oriented Ranger. Pity WotC missed that.
Yep-Starting from AD&D 1e when they started getting actual stat bonuses, Wood elves have had + Strength, in the Unearthed Arcana book when they introduced the sub-races to the primary races. (They also had Wild Elves/Grugach in that, which I think were actually a +2 instead of a +1, which was pretty big shit back in those days.)
2e you'll find it in the book of Elves when they describe the sub-races(I don't blame you for shoving that one out of memory. :p) 3x they showed up in the FR book/MM Core Rulebook with other sub-race rules. (They were adjusted between 3 and 3.5, they had a Charisma negative along with the Con and Int minuses in 3, in 3.5, this was changed to +2 Str/Dex, -2 Con/Int.) And yeah, their favored class was Ranger.
I mean they've been like this so long I'm surprised they missed it for 4e and now 5e. Luckily it's easily houseruled in both of them.
I'm reading the 4E Essentials Rules Compendium right now, and it's the best RPG instructional and reference document I've read. The writing is clear, concise, and logical. It flows and reads well. There's no ambiguity or distracting kludges. The organization and cross-referencing is sterling.
Just as importantly, it's written in an attractive, large font, with lots of white space. I don't know how many RPG books I've read with cramped 8 or 7 pt type. The worst is the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2E core book. It's an otherwise attractive and well organized book. But I can't read it for longer than about 4 or 5 minutes before I have to set it down and rub my eyes. Layout 101 is you don't print anything you want people to voluntarily read any smaller than 10 pt.
Whatever else you may think of WotC, they have the best writing, layout, and editing in the business. So regardless of the quality of the content, you know you're going to get something easily readable and effective in presentation.
Quote from: RunningLaser;722194Don't know if this was mentioned yet, but I had the Dungeon Crawl Classics book for a while. I thought the book was great, but one complaint I had was that the sentences went right into the gutter of the book (if that's the correct term). Made reading more difficult than it should have been for me.
Yup, gutter is the correct term. That bugs me a lot too. Completely breaks up reading. Almost as bad as books that use different colored text in part or whole, disregarding the fact that some of their readers (like me) will have some variation of colorblindness.
I hate books without character sheets; you can learn quite a bit about a game from it's character sheet.
What I also hate is books with character sheets that blatantly don't give enough space to write the things the game actually expects you to write down; any game with spells, feats, or other distinct rules chunks, for example. I make my own spellbooks for Shadowrun and Ars Magica, or discipline lists for Vampire, but that's another few sheets of paper I have to track.
Quote from: Zeea;722191*I'm not a big fan of academic writing either, because quite a few professors seem to believe, through some confusion of things which must have been learned prior to the current time--which is to say the time of writing--that in all circumstances, save for those that mandate brevity, that ludicrously complex sentences with poor concept flow--to say nothing of overuse of prepositional phrases and constant interruptions--are, in essence, an amazingly effective way to demonstrate competency and skill. (See what I did there?)
You know I almost commented about another poster's use that absurd nominalization "The Ask".
I'll just leave this here:
Quote from: George OrwellI returned and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
Here it is in modern English:
Objective considerations of contemporary phenomena compel the conclusion that success or failure in competitive activities exhibits no tendency to be commensurate with innate capacity, but that a considerable element of the unpredictable must invariably be taken into account.
Quote from: Ladybird;722207I hate books without character sheets; you can learn quite a bit about a game from it's character sheet.
What I also hate is books with character sheets that blatantly don't give enough space to write the things the game actually expects you to write down; any game with spells, feats, or other distinct rules chunks, for example. I make my own spellbooks for Shadowrun and Ars Magica, or discipline lists for Vampire, but that's another few sheets of paper I have to track.
Ugh, I also hate the "phone it in" Character sheets.
I'm going to stare at this page for hours on end, please put more care into it than simply firing up Word one afternoon and calling it a day.
Quote from: Ladybird;722207I hate books without character sheets; you can learn quite a bit about a game from it's character sheet.
What I also hate is books with character sheets that blatantly don't give enough space to write the things the game actually expects you to write down; any game with spells, feats, or other distinct rules chunks, for example. I make my own spellbooks for Shadowrun and Ars Magica, or discipline lists for Vampire, but that's another few sheets of paper I have to track.
I really hate that, too. Especially sheets that give you huge amounts of space for crap nobody cares about and tiny space for long lists.
Another thing that irritates me a bit is the infamous misleading character sheet. I really wish I could have had the game I imagined from looking at the Exalted 1e character sheet, for instance. If not that, I'd have loved to have an actual charm sheet in the original book, since that was the basis of the game.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;722035Editors are kind of like bass players, people don't notice them until they screw up or aren't present.
Which is why Metallica and Dethklok just dub those parts in at the mix stage.
JG
Quote from: Warthur;722044Nah, I'm pretty sure a lot of the coming of age stuff in Ender's Game had been covered more than adequately by Heinlein juveniles etc.
Still have my hardback copy of Red Planet.
Quote from: Warthur;722044Nah, I'm pretty sure a lot of the coming of age stuff in Ender's Game had been covered more than adequately by Heinlein juveniles etc.
Fair enough, I'm mistaken. It's not really my domain of expertise anyway.
Anyone have a theory as to how
Ender's Game became so popular?
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;722378Fair enough, I'm mistaken. It's not really my domain of expertise anyway.
Anyone have a theory as to how Ender's Game became so popular?
It plays up to that "In special but misunderstood and one day when a contrived situation arises that makes my specialness really special Ill show them all" myth so many people who read SciFi like to believe about themselves.
Quote from: Zeea;722191*I'm not a big fan of academic writing either, because quite a few professors seem to believe, through some confusion of things which must have been learned prior to the current time--which is to say the time of writing--that in all circumstances, save for those that mandate brevity, that ludicrously complex sentences with poor concept flow--to say nothing of overuse of prepositional phrases and constant interruptions--are, in essence, an amazingly effective way to demonstrate competency and skill. (See what I did there?)
This is a thing of beauty.
Robotech Sentinels (which I have previously grumbled about) suffers from this. Every other page it's "decimated this... decimated that... decimated by the whoever is in the bloody narrative". I don't think that means what he thinks it means. If it did, well. 10% and all that. The writing is basically crap.
Marvel Heroic Roleplay is NOT a good book to reference either. Nice examples of how it works throughout, but a simple easy explanation would surely negate that? >inb4 target audience
Thoughts. Fragments. To be parsed.
Quote from: Haffrung;722197I'm reading the 4E Essentials Rules Compendium right now, and it's the best RPG instructional and reference document I've read. The writing is clear, concise, and logical. It flows and reads well. There's no ambiguity or distracting kludges. The organization and cross-referencing is sterling.
This I have to agree with. Over produced pages (WoD, Dresden, MHR etc) make my teeth itch. So many times I find myself cutting and pasting text out of the PDFs and into a reference document to speed up the comprehension of what I am supposed to be doing.
Quote from: James Gillen;722355Which is why Metallica and Dethklok just dub those parts in at the mix stage.
JG
You'd think they'd get a drum machine to replace Lars. You only have to punch the information into one of those once.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;722378Fair enough, I'm mistaken. It's not really my domain of expertise anyway.
Anyone have a theory as to how Ender's Game became so popular?
I think it's a combination of elements. It's a well written text - Card has interesting rhythms in his writing, despite the fact that his diction is extremely accessible to a wide range of readers. In other words, there's enough meat in the words-on-the-page to be interesting to adults, but it's still comprehensible to juvenile readers. Though, to be fair, there are issues with pacing and the division of different narrative strands throughout.
Thematically, the text deals a lot with issues of guilt, ideas of political necessity, and questions of psychological determinism versus personal will and desire. The novel is a tragedy, ultimately, and it's painted at such - despite being a very special person (from a family of very special persons), Ender and his siblings are desperately unhappy people. Despite the book's reputation, there's no real element of "nerds are the secret supermen! See? It doesn't matter that you were bullied!" in it; Ender, as I said, is very special due to his innate intelligence and ability at tactics, but he's almost completely isolated and alienated.
I dislike descriptions of the book as "paeans to Space Hitler" or what-have-you, too, since they seem to miss the point: Yes, Ender is entirely compromised and does not-nice things throughout the book, but the interrogation of the moral value of realpolitik (and the effect realpolitik decisions can have on the lives of the participants) is something that the text consistently calls into question. If anything, the novel doesn't rest on its laurels and make
any segment of society feel better about itself - the nerd is left feeling like a pariah, the pragmatic like a monster, the empathic like a traitor. It challenges and pushes against assumptions, leaving little chance for equanimity in a universe where the slightest misunderstanding can lead easily to catastrophe for all involved.
I haven't worked on it professionally, nor am I familiar with any critical analyses of the book, but I'm sure there's a good amount out there. It's a valuable text, and a cracking good read.
Quote from: Piestrio;722240You know I almost commented about another poster's use that absurd nominalization "The Ask".
:D Trifling vexation? Indubitably.
:p
Quote from: TristramEvans;722018Yeah, our hobby seems to suffer from a dearth of competent editors. Ive been tempted since the 90s to put out a book just called "Page XX" that addresses every reference to 'see page xx' in rpgs from the last 30 years.
I wonder if that would get an Indie RPG Award for Best Indie RPG Supplement. :hmm:
Quote from: Herr Arnulfe;722041True, if you check the credits of RPG books there's usually one editor (often one of the writers or developers pulling double-duty) and a proofer is rarely even credited.
Still, that should be enough to get most of the apostrophes where they belong. :mad:
Quote from: Piestrio;722242Ugh, I also hate the "phone it in" Character sheets.
I'm going to stare at this page for hours on end, please put more care into it than simply firing up Word one afternoon and calling it a day.
When originally you get a sheet with too little space for anything and then the companion book comes with an expanded x-page sheet with huge amounts of extra space for stuff you hardly ever bother writing down at all.
Quote from: Zeea;722245I really hate that, too. Especially sheets that give you huge amounts of space for crap nobody cares about and tiny space for long lists.
Actually, there's few character sheets that do not suffer from this to some extent.
Quote from: 3rik;722431I wonder if that would get an Indie RPG Award for Best Indie RPG Supplement. :hmm:
Only if it was...
1.) Written ironically.
2.) Had an author with hair more then one color (grey not counting).
3.) Had story-based mechanics.
If it has all three, it will get an Ennie.
Quote from: Géza Echs;722402Thematically, the text deals a lot with issues of guilt, ideas of political necessity, and questions of psychological determinism versus personal will and desire. The novel is a tragedy, ultimately, and it's painted at such
Word of God is that the book is solely about whether genocide can ever be morally justified. All the alienated teenager crap is just Card trying to make sure that Ender has no moral baggage junking up the question.
Quote from: CRKrueger;722434Only if it was...
1.) Written ironically.
2.) Had an author with hair more then one color (grey not counting).
3.) Had story-based mechanics.
If it has all three, it will get an Ennie.
I dont know how to write ironically, but I could certainly manage sarcastically.
Sadly, never dyed my hair and not planning to in this lifetime.
Quote from: daniel_ream;722447Word of God is that the book is solely about whether genocide can ever be morally justified. All the alienated teenager crap is just Card trying to make sure that Ender has no moral baggage junking up the question.
Well, sure. The question of justifying genocide is the "big question" that the novel deals with. It also deals with all this other stuff, too, only in a lesser focus. :)
Quote from: TristramEvans;722382It plays up to that "In special but misunderstood and one day when a contrived situation arises that makes my specialness really special Ill show them all" myth so many people who read SciFi like to believe about themselves.
Wow. Please show us on the doll where the bad science fiction fan touched you.
Quote from: jeff37923;722475Wow. Please show us on the doll where the bad science fiction fan touched you.
Like Id let those stinky bastards get close enough to touch me.
Just thought of another, and it's a biggie:
GM screens that fail to summarize or present the key information you actually need to run the game. Obscure lists and conversion tables are included, while vital core content is totally absent.
In fact, GM screens are so universally terrible, regardless of system or publisher, that I've come to be believe the omissions are an intentional practice. It seems that RPG publishers make it their business to ensure there is no neat summary of their game mechanics is available in any format - even in the format of a game screens whose ostensible purpose is to summarize reference material.
Birthright's GM screen was pretty decent in my experience. Half Birthright tables, half AD&D tables.
And Mage: the Awakening looked surprisingly complete, albeit with eye-straining (or I'm just getting older); fans told me it covered most applicable things.
However I'm very much in the make-yer-own! camp, as it's hard to tell what will receive the most use in overall campaigns. Too often tables were more examples than fixed canon. But it is true they often overlooked actual play stuff like vision or encounter distance.
Quote from: Piestrio;722242Ugh, I also hate the "phone it in" Character sheets.
I'm going to stare at this page for hours on end, please put more care into it than simply firing up Word one afternoon and calling it a day.
I hate games where I need anything more than an index card or single sheet of notebook paper as a character sheet.
Quote from: Elfdart;722518I hate games where I need anything more than an index card or single sheet of notebook paper as a character sheet.
This.
Quote from: Elfdart;722518I hate games where I need anything more than an index card or single sheet of notebook paper as a character sheet.
Thank you!
I had to roll up a new character in our Pathfinder game, and everyone looked at me like I was a freak, cause I started using my notebook, rather than a (cost me money) character sheet.
If he lives to level up, then I'll consider giving him a character sheet!
The character's got to EARN that character sheet!
Quote from: Elfdart;722518I hate games where I need anything more than an index card or single sheet of notebook paper as a character sheet.
I still have all the players index cards from my 80s Gamma World sessions and all the players index cards from my 00s Star Frontiers session.
Quote from: Novastar;722577If he lives to level up, then I'll consider giving him a character sheet!
The character's got to EARN that character sheet!
That's the spirit.
JG
Quote from: Black Vulmea;722548This.
So you like Classic Traveller, I gather? :)
Quote from: golan2072;722634So you like Classic Traveller, I gather? :)
Very much.
My personal 'old school renaissance' began with re-reading
Traveller stat blocks from
1001 Characters - a ton of character packed in just two or three lines.