Perkins states "There isnt a new edition"

Omega · March 28, 2024, 09:04:49 PM

Quote from: yosemitemike on March 28, 2024, 07:47:44 AM
The way WotC is marketing this is just weird. It's like they are trying to have their cake and eat it too. They want to make a new edition but they don't want to alienate all of the 5e players. So it's 5e but it's also not 5e. It's the same but different. It's okay if things go away because they will still be there? What the fuck? Either it goes away or it doesn't go away. Is it 5e again or is it different? If it's 5e again, why does anyone need it? Are they removing things or not? Why can't they just tell us what this product is going to be?

Because if they told us we'd wouldnt buy it. Perkins has already stated the DMG will practically push storygamer screeds like "The DM is there to serve the players and every player is a DM!" What DM is going to buy a book that tells them they have to be the players slave?

Aglondir · March 28, 2024, 09:57:48 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 28, 2024, 08:47:38 AM
Quote from: Aglondir on March 27, 2024, 09:51:19 PM
I don't want to defend anyone at WOTC, but I actually agree with Perkins on this. If I were designing the game, I'd take it down to 4 base classes (Fighter, Cleric, Mage, Rogue) and make everything else a variant on one of those. Either through subclasses or by feat selection. Then again, I bailed out of the 5E ship years ago.
Even the Cleric is just a D&D-ism that is barely retained anyway as Bards now have Arcane healing.

All you really need are three classes; Fighter (fighty guy), Mage (casty guy) and Expert (skill guy); and free multi-classing between them.

Cleric is a Figher/Mage with a focus on healing spells. Paladin is also a Fighter/Mage with twice the levels in Fighter as Mage. Ranger is a Fighter/Expert with a focus on Nature, Barbarian is the same, but has way more levels in fighter than expert. Druid is a Mage with Nature/Shapeshifting focus. Etc.

Beyond that, you just need some subclass specifics like "Str vs. Dex based" Fighter options... with Rage, Unarmored Defense, and Unarmed strikes in the list somewhere for Fighter, Skill Tricks for the Expert (ex. Nature abilities, Mechanics/Locks/Traps, Social, Stealth), and spell school and/or power source focus for the Mage and you could more than cover all the D&D classes and have much broader options in general.

Chris,

Excellent ideas. And it totally works, it's True 20! Except for the awful damage save. X Without Number does soemthing like this as well.

RNGm · March 29, 2024, 07:19:07 AM

Just like Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia, there isn't a new edition... until a few years from now, we've always been at war with Eurasia and they admit there is a new edition and your old stuff isn't compatible.

FingerRod · March 29, 2024, 07:34:31 AM

I'm still on the fence with Perkins. On one hand, all of the evidence in front of my face. On the other, this dude has a true and deep love of the game. From being an absolute pest until getting his stuff published as a teenager to DM'g on stage for years and years despite reportedly suffering from crippling anxiety, my current status with CP is...complicated.

I'm taking a wait and see with this one. Although, if I pushed my chips in...my guess is he'll make all the concessions he needs to the overlords and we'll have Soy D&D.

Exploderwizard · March 29, 2024, 07:48:26 AM

Quote from: Omega on March 28, 2024, 09:04:49 PM
Quote from: yosemitemike on March 28, 2024, 07:47:44 AM
The way WotC is marketing this is just weird. It's like they are trying to have their cake and eat it too. They want to make a new edition but they don't want to alienate all of the 5e players. So it's 5e but it's also not 5e. It's the same but different. It's okay if things go away because they will still be there? What the fuck? Either it goes away or it doesn't go away. Is it 5e again or is it different? If it's 5e again, why does anyone need it? Are they removing things or not? Why can't they just tell us what this product is going to be?

Because if they told us we'd wouldnt buy it. Perkins has already stated the DMG will practically push storygamer screeds like "The DM is there to serve the players and every player is a DM!" What DM is going to buy a book that tells them they have to be the players slave?

Slave is a banned word at Wizards of the Woke. The DM will be referred to as the facilitator of player fantasies while players are editors of their own unique stories. That is woke speak for slave to to a bunch of narcasisstic wanna-be actors.

Steven Mitchell · March 29, 2024, 09:05:44 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on March 29, 2024, 07:34:31 AM
I'm still on the fence with Perkins. On one hand, all of the evidence in front of my face. On the other, this dude has a true and deep love of the game. From being an absolute pest until getting his stuff published as a teenager to DM'g on stage for years and years despite reportedly suffering from crippling anxiety, my current status with CP is...complicated.

I'm taking a wait and see with this one. Although, if I pushed my chips in...my guess is he'll make all the concessions he needs to the overlords and we'll have Soy D&D.

There's a disconnect in Perkin's brain between what he writes and what he means--this was true even in his first adventures for Dungeon magazine. When I see that kind of pervasive disconnect, I suspect lots of minor fudging in his games to make it work. He's just not really a mechanics/system guy, and it shows.

Ruprecht · March 29, 2024, 10:53:05 AM

While I agree the game has more classes then it needs the argument that it might be confusing for a newbie seems to forget about the starter set or the DM. Those won't apply to the vtt-d$d though so I wonder if he isn't floating an idea to see how it's taken.

Play vtt-d$d newbie level with fewer classses at a lesser price or play the advanced version and get all the options and more, now for a limited time only, at $$$$$$

blackstone · March 29, 2024, 11:36:33 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 29, 2024, 07:48:26 AM
Quote from: Omega on March 28, 2024, 09:04:49 PM
Quote from: yosemitemike on March 28, 2024, 07:47:44 AM
The way WotC is marketing this is just weird. It's like they are trying to have their cake and eat it too. They want to make a new edition but they don't want to alienate all of the 5e players. So it's 5e but it's also not 5e. It's the same but different. It's okay if things go away because they will still be there? What the fuck? Either it goes away or it doesn't go away. Is it 5e again or is it different? If it's 5e again, why does anyone need it? Are they removing things or not? Why can't they just tell us what this product is going to be?

Because if they told us we'd wouldnt buy it. Perkins has already stated the DMG will practically push storygamer screeds like "The DM is there to serve the players and every player is a DM!" What DM is going to buy a book that tells them they have to be the players slave?

Slave is a banned word at Wizards of the Woke. The DM will be referred to as the facilitator of player fantasies while players are editors of their own unique stories. That is woke speak for slave to to a bunch of narcasisstic wanna-be actors.

The word "Slave" is banned at WoTC?

What the actual fuck?

That's just...stupid.

FingerRod · March 29, 2024, 12:09:41 PM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 29, 2024, 09:05:44 AM
Quote from: FingerRod on March 29, 2024, 07:34:31 AM
I'm still on the fence with Perkins. On one hand, all of the evidence in front of my face. On the other, this dude has a true and deep love of the game. From being an absolute pest until getting his stuff published as a teenager to DM'g on stage for years and years despite reportedly suffering from crippling anxiety, my current status with CP is...complicated.

I'm taking a wait and see with this one. Although, if I pushed my chips in...my guess is he'll make all the concessions he needs to the overlords and we'll have Soy D&D.

There's a disconnect in Perkin's brain between what he writes and what he means--this was true even in his first adventures for Dungeon magazine. When I see that kind of pervasive disconnect, I suspect lots of minor fudging in his games to make it work. He's just not really a mechanics/system guy, and it shows.

When you put it that way, it makes a lot of sense to me. I never ran his material, and I only knew some of the story leading up to them being published.

Venka · March 29, 2024, 02:00:52 PM

Quote from: blackstone on March 29, 2024, 11:36:33 AM
The word "Slave" is banned at WoTC?

What the actual fuck?

That's just...stupid.

I mean no, they never said it is banned. But kinda yes because they have stripped out every reference to slavery that they can. This is done for real world political reasons, and no other thing. It is unrealistic, as slavery exists in almost all times and places, with the exception of like, some white countries fighting against it over the last couple centuries, and a few other small places here and there. Their likely reason for removing it is that portraying historically realistic racism in fantasy gaming puts it into an accurate historical perspective, and avoiding that is a top task by people who want to do anti-white propaganda.

RPGPundit · March 29, 2024, 03:27:00 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on March 27, 2024, 09:51:19 PM
Quote from: Perkins"Speaking frankly, [and] this is my own personal opinion, 12 classes is actually a lot," Perkins says. "If I were redesigning, if I could go back to 2012 to when we were talking about fifth edition for the first time, I would probably put a strong case forward that we could actually do with less classes in the core game. You know, keep the choices simple. Because when you're asking somebody to choose between a Sorcerer and a Wizard, to the untrained eye, it's not clear what the difference is until you start to drill down and you realize where they get their power from and how their spell-casting works. When you look at it superficially, they seem pretty much the same. And you know, what is the difference between a Barbarian and a Fighter? A Barbarian could almost be a subclass [for a] Fighter if we were designing this game from scratch."

I don't want to defend anyone at WOTC, but I actually agree with Perkins on this. If I were designing the game, I'd take it down to 4 base classes (Fighter, Cleric, Mage, Rogue) and make everything else a variant on one of those. Either through subclasses or by feat selection. Then again, I bailed out of the 5E ship years ago.

[/quote]

That's exactly what I advocated for at the time. My suggestion to Mearls was that there be four core classes, and all kinds of others could be presented as optional classes in the DMG or elsewhere, for the DM to use if he wished to allow.

Horace · March 29, 2024, 11:16:36 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 29, 2024, 03:27:00 PM
Quote from: Aglondir on March 27, 2024, 09:51:19 PM
I don't want to defend anyone at WOTC, but I actually agree with Perkins on this. If I were designing the game, I'd take it down to 4 base classes (Fighter, Cleric, Mage, Rogue) and make everything else a variant on one of those. Either through subclasses or by feat selection. Then again, I bailed out of the 5E ship years ago.
That's exactly what I advocated for at the time. My suggestion to Mearls was that there be four core classes, and all kinds of others could be presented as optional classes in the DMG or elsewhere, for the DM to use if he wished to allow.

It's what I would have wanted as well. The Sorcerer and Warlock are the worst offenses. I could have lived with the Paladin, Bard, and Ranger. But four classes would have been ideal.

More radically, I would have done away with most of 5E's "class abilities." The designers went overboard with those, giving characters a new super-power every few levels. Keep it simple, I say.

Nakana · March 30, 2024, 12:18:57 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 29, 2024, 07:48:26 AM
The DM will be referred to as the facilitator of player fantasies while players are editors of their own unique stories.

Player: I wanna do the thing.
DM: ok, roll a d20.
Player: I got a 12, what does that mean?
DM: <soul crushing sigh> whatever you want it to mean.

Nakana · March 30, 2024, 12:30:19 AM

I liked what d20 Modern did with classes. Six. Each based on a core attribute. They should do something closer to that and have subtypes.

Omega · March 30, 2024, 07:46:36 AM

Quote from: blackstone on March 29, 2024, 11:36:33 AM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 29, 2024, 07:48:26 AM
Quote from: Omega on March 28, 2024, 09:04:49 PM
Quote from: yosemitemike on March 28, 2024, 07:47:44 AM
The way WotC is marketing this is just weird. It's like they are trying to have their cake and eat it too. They want to make a new edition but they don't want to alienate all of the 5e players. So it's 5e but it's also not 5e. It's the same but different. It's okay if things go away because they will still be there? What the fuck? Either it goes away or it doesn't go away. Is it 5e again or is it different? If it's 5e again, why does anyone need it? Are they removing things or not? Why can't they just tell us what this product is going to be?

Because if they told us we'd wouldnt buy it. Perkins has already stated the DMG will practically push storygamer screeds like "The DM is there to serve the players and every player is a DM!" What DM is going to buy a book that tells them they have to be the players slave?

Slave is a banned word at Wizards of the Woke. The DM will be referred to as the facilitator of player fantasies while players are editors of their own unique stories. That is woke speak for slave to to a bunch of narcasisstic wanna-be actors.

The word "Slave" is banned at WoTC?

What the actual fuck?

That's just...stupid.

Oh it gets better. (worse)...
They has a list of "bad" words they intend to get rid of with "really real 5e still!" Ki, fat, witch, think barbarian was on the hitlist too. And at one point they were planning to go through all the old D&D material and censor them.