Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878227Removing it while unconscious makes sense. But what would you use for initiative instead.

I'd go with Intelligence. It's a stupid-underused stat in 5e. There are like what, 3 decent spells that require an intelligence save? Is there even 1 monster that makes players roll against Intelligence.

Intelligence can easily be rationalized to "thinking fast." It's hardly worse than Dexterity being rationalized to "more damage, better agility, and better hand/eye coordination."

Quote from: Doom;878343Part of the reason exhaustion is so powerful in 5e is it's a new thing, so there isn't a trivial unstoppable spell to counter it.

I mean, if exhaustion came out as a real issue in 2e, there'd be a 5e cantrip, first level spell tops, that was something like Energize: target character is no longer exhausted.

It's rather funny there are low level spells to repair entrails spilling out, but no magic to fix being winded, or missing a night's sleep.

I thought the same thing. But there are lots of interesting little mechanical things "new" to 5e that have yet to permeate the discussions of how to fix perceived problems from previous editions of play. Exhaustion, Advantage/Disadvantage (which pretty much everyone likes) - I'd also include some of the DMG optional rules like the Faction System which can be used to scale your games in terms of power levels without itemization. Using skills/Feats etc. as rewards.

The moment they introduce some cheap-ass spell to remove exhaustion, it will ruin the entire mechanic. As far as I'm concerned, I want Exhaustion to be a new 5e Sacred Cow.

Quote from: Doom;878343Part of the reason exhaustion is so powerful in 5e is it's a new thing, so there isn't a trivial unstoppable spell to counter it.

It existed in AD&D for going to zero HP but I dont think there was any rule for exhaustion-like effects. Going to zero HP exhaustion in AD&D was more severe. Even if healed with a spell or potion they were in a coma for 1d6 turns and needed a full week of bed-rest where they were so weak they could not fight, cast spells, research, or anything really other than sit quietly and hope to whatever gods are on hand that that never happened again.

Not even Heal could remove that. I checked.

Not sure if 2e removed that or added a spell to counter it?

Quote from: Doom;878345I'd go with Intelligence. It's a stupid-underused stat in 5e. There are like what, 3 decent spells that require an intelligence save? Is there even 1 monster that makes players roll against Intelligence.

Intelligence can easily be rationalized to "thinking fast." It's hardly worse than Dexterity being rationalized to "more damage, better agility, and better hand/eye coordination."

Intelligence for initiative? :eek: Hoo boy Doom, if you thought wizard spells were annoying before, just watch what happens when they are consistently the first thing to go off in combat.

I am quite pleased with the array of 2e initiative methods. I also liked how DEX benefit was to Reaction Adjustment (Surprise roll) and not initiative.

I am of the opinion that no stat is needed to be tied to initiative.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;878517Intelligence for initiative? :eek: Hoo boy Doom, if you thought wizard spells were annoying before, just watch what happens when they are consistently the first thing to go off in combat.

Wizards in 5e already have high dex we're only talking an extra +1 or +2 here depending on how min/maxed the wizard is. The trouble with the wizards isn't the going first, nearly as much as the nigh uncounter-able spells combined with perfect certainty of always having the best possible spells.

I didn't say it was a perfect thing, but it's tough to rationalize Charisma as the initiative stat, and that's the next "dump stat" for 5e, outside of classes that must have it.

What about WIS. Awareness of your surroundings.

Quote from: Doom;878534I didn't say it was a perfect thing, but it's tough to rationalize Charisma as the initiative stat, and that's the next "dump stat" for 5e, outside of classes that must have it.

I´ve not read 5e, but Charisma usually represent leadership so I could see a connection to initiative.

Quote from: zx81;878561I´ve not read 5e, but Charisma usually represent leadership so I could see a connection to initiative.

Was thinking that too. (No ulterior motive at all for boosting my CHA focused Warlock... nope!)

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;878517Intelligence for initiative? :eek: Hoo boy Doom, if you thought wizard spells were annoying before, just watch what happens when they are consistently the first thing to go off in combat.

Easy to deal with that:  Reintroduce casting times.  You start casting on your own initiative number and the spell goes off (Spell Level x 2) initiative numbers later.

And, of course, if you get hit while casting, I'd also throw in at least a chance that your spell could be interrupted (no spell this round, but you can try it again later) or lost (resources expended as if the spell had been cast, but it has no effect)...

Quote from: nDervish;878577Easy to deal with that:  Reintroduce casting times.  You start casting on your own initiative number and the spell goes off (Spell Level x 2) initiative numbers later.

And, of course, if you get hit while casting, I'd also throw in at least a chance that your spell could be interrupted (no spell this round, but you can try it again later) or lost (resources expended as if the spell had been cast, but it has no effect)...

That would be inconvenient to spellcasters, and thus outside the 5e paradigm!

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878540What about WIS. Awareness of your surroundings.

That just shifts it to other casting classes, clerics, druids, and rangers.

And shifting it to CHA moves it to four other casting classes, bards, paladins, sorcerors, and warlocks.

Nope, sorry, there is no solution there at all. Someone somewhere would be getting an unnecessary class synergy benefit. It's like getting First Strike for "winning chargen."

We could stick it in CON, because everyone needs it. But one day soon the psionicist will come, meanwhile fighters, barbarians, and dwarves are pouncing on everyone. It's just a poor solution overall to attach it to a stat, I think.

Just stick to DEX for fucks sake. Its not the be-all-end-all stat some of you make it out to be. Its useful. But so are other stats.

Back on topic. Like that will last.

As for PC death.

The DMG also has some options for making things either harder or easier as I mentioned in a recent other thread here.

There is also the massive damage option and lasting wounds options also from the DMG.

Progressive poisons are another severe problem to a downed character.

Quote from: Opaopajr;878218That DEX mod to AC is contextually about evasion. Yet that means while unconscious the character is flopping around like a flapjack. :duh:

Armor I can get, trying to find an opening. Shields DO go away because you drop whatever you are holding and fall prone — and that also makes sense. But apparently DEX is forever, like diamonds!

Just as hit points are an abstraction, so "unconsciousness" can be; see p197 of PHB, "An attack the reduces you to 0 hit points strikes you directly, leaving a bleeding injury or other trauma, or it simply knocks you unconscious." The condition is in any case called unconscious (see Appendix A) but the character might still be flopping around; certainly maintaining AC suggests that that is the case.

And if the shield is strapped on to your arm, you might not drop it (doffing it is an action, not a free interaction). The rules variously speak of wearing a shield, carrying a shield (that affects AC) and wielding a shield.

If you do take away the dexterity bonus to AC, what about the unarmored but unconscious monk or barbarian: do they still get the wisdom or constitution bonus to AC?

I'm much more bothered by not being able simply to cut the throat of someone who is sleeping but has 50 hit points.

Quote from: rawma;878693I'm much more bothered by not being able simply to cut the throat of someone who is sleeping but has 50 hit points.

Couldn't that fall under the Improvise an Action rule?