So I've been running a 5th ed D&D game, and I have trouble killing characters.
At least, I had the idea originally that this would be a fairly deadly game. And it has often been tough for the PCs. They each took two PCs in a sort of mini-funnel with the idea that they might die. However, thus far, only one has died.
Compared to early editions, it's hard for a single PC to die without the whole party dying. There are a lot of options to keep a PC alive. And if it looks like the whole party might die, I'm usually a little lenient and give them a chance at something that will save them - like a last-minute negotiation, or a chance that a severely damaged enemy will retreat. Thus far, they've been lucky in those.
It's not like it's a critical problem, but it is something I'm pondering - and I'm wondering what other people's experience is with this.
Yeah pretty much. Unless you go deliberately out of your way to finish someone off, which doesn't happen a lot in my cases, if I play the creatures realistically.
Like if an Owlbear downs a PC and gets them to 0, sure, if left alone it's going to bite into him and finish him off. But he's not alone; there's an entire party still attacking it. So the Owlbear will likely leave that PC alone and focus on the others, and while that's happening it's easy for someone to run in there and use a medicine kit or heal them.
I ran Tomb of Horrors for my group with four 10th level PCs. In that onslaught, I had two characters die and two others in the middle of the dungeon with almost certain death awaiting them. Now obviously this was a pretty difficult dungeon and it's definitely known for being lethal, still some of their decisions combined with rolls caused death.
In standard play with 1st level characters, I haven't seen any PC deaths yet but we've only played a few sessions of the Hoard of the Dragon Queen supplement.
We lost an NPC last session--ghouls paralyzed him, then tore him to bits right in front of his comrades.
My son lost the first character he ever made to wolves--4 wolves, 4 of us... he died.
In both cases, the party Cleric ignored their fallen comrade, the former, because the Cleric's deity isn't especially devoted to life, the latter because he had his own problems fighting off the wolves.
It's more lethal than I thought...
It was similar in 4e too. Essentially, its either TPK or everyone alive. On saying that, being taken down is easier so there feeling of risk remains high. I personally think this is a good balance to achieve.
Wolves and anything with multi-attack can be real terrors in 5e.
Wolves because of the knock prone ability. Once they get you down things tend to go to heck ASAP of you cant get up or be saved.
Multi-Attack capable creatures can take you to the threshold of death without even trying. The creature directs its attacks on a PC. First one takes down the character and the followup if it hits, and it has advantage right there, counts as two failed death saves.
Just because the first attack downed the character I do not have the monster up and decide to redirect the second to someone else unless they are in reach and the creature wasnt focused on that downed character.
IE: I do not like changing targets once I have committed a monster to a task. There are times when changing targets is appropriate. Like monsters that want prisoners or have some trait that makes them rampage off after new targets once one is down.
You'll find that the maths behind 5E work much better if you play your monsters like players use their characters.
The secret here isn't numbers or even multiple attacks, but having your creatures gang up on one of the player characters. Don't divvy them up; have them run up and surround the weakest character.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;876813The secret here isn't numbers or even multiple attacks, but having your creatures gang up on one of the player characters. Don't divvy them up; have them run up and surround the weakest character.
Yerp. I've noted in other threads just how lethal groups can be to a PC. Had a bunch of kobold slingers wittling away at the dwarf wizard early in the 5e campaign. If theyd dropped him theyd have likely pelted him to death. Or my oft mentioned encounter with the pack of wolves. Allways damn wolves! heh.
Three kobolds focused on one character can be a death sentence in a single round.
Circumstance is a big factor too for intelligent foes. Is whaling on this downed adventurer worth more than turning and smaking the still standing adventurer who is going to turn me into gibblets if I dont drop him too? Or. This downed adventurer killed my buddy and Im going to make sure hes not getting up!
Quote from: Skywalker;876789It was similar in 4e too. Essentially, its either TPK or everyone alive. On saying that, being taken down is easier so there feeling of risk remains high. I personally think this is a good balance to achieve.
Just to counterpoint
I've had more characters die in 4e than I've had in 3.PF or 5e. I'm not entirely sure why, though I suspect it was a combination of dumb heroics (I have my second wind and two dailies left....CHARGE!!) or just poor rolls.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;876813You'll find that the maths behind 5E work much better if you play your monsters like players use their characters.
The secret here isn't numbers or even multiple attacks, but having your creatures gang up on one of the player characters. Don't divvy them up; have them run up and surround the weakest character.
Yes, I always have them surround the weakest character, but I haven't had them keep hitting opponents after they're down.
That's a little weird on the rules part. The rules say that "most DMs" have a monster die when it hits zero hit points, and that's how we played it in previous campaigns. So it's not clear that monsters should have tactics to keep hitting things after they are down. However, I don't like rules that apply only to PCs, so I'm thinking of changing that.
RAW characters can easily die at 1-2 level, becomes near impossible after that. The only time a character died after the first couple levels, it was a long enough fight that they died due to three strikes rule. Get a life cleric in there and a second character with some first aid and it's ridiculous. Not quite Fantasy Supers/Wuxia like 4e but pretty bad.
Quote from: jhkim;876833Yes, I always have them surround the weakest character, but I haven't had them keep hitting opponents after they're down.
That's a little weird on the rules part. The rules say that "most DMs" have a monster die when it hits zero hit points, and that's how we played it in previous campaigns. So it's not clear that monsters should have tactics to keep hitting things after they are down. However, I don't like rules that apply only to PCs, so I'm thinking of changing that.
It's not like the monsters in-game necessarily know the creature is dead. They just saw it hit the ground.
Imagine if you're in a fight with someone and you knock them down. You're probably going to keep hitting them a few more times before you realize they're dead.
Quote from: jhkim;876833Yes, I always have them surround the weakest character, but I haven't had them keep hitting opponents after they're down.
That's a little weird on the rules part. The rules say that "most DMs" have a monster die when it hits zero hit points, and that's how we played it in previous campaigns. So it's not clear that monsters should have tactics to keep hitting things after they are down. However, I don't like rules that apply only to PCs, so I'm thinking of changing that.
You totally need to have monsters hit characters that are down...there's plenty of healing in the game world, and I'm *sure* even semi-intelligent monsters know that just because something lays down, doesn't mean it's dead.
Hit 'em when they're down...monsters are evil, after all.
I'm running two 5e games, and a PC dies at least every other session in both. Heck, I had a player lose 2 characters in the same night.
Deaths are common enough that I tell players to have a back-up character ready, to minimize down time.
Do you guys think doing that kind of thing detracts from a "heroic" game? Some of my players like games like Critical Role (good stuff) where it's the DM's job to make the players be heroic. But I think if I just went at every downed PC with the long knives they would think it's not giving them the chance to be heroic.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;876863Do you guys think doing that kind of thing detracts from a "heroic" game? Some of my players like games like Critical Role (good stuff) where it's the DM's job to make the players be heroic. But I think if I just went at every downed PC with the long knives they would think it's not giving them the chance to be heroic.
I wasn't wild about it at first, the whole "hit 'em when they're down" is a bit alien to an old school player, where healing spells were limited, close range and could be countered.
But now healing is plentiful, long range, and unstoppable. The rules affect my game world...when a king dies, there's no succession until it's certain he's not getting raised. Assassination attempts are not about "poisoned wine" or "sniper arrows"...because everyone knows that such attempts are laughably stupid in a world where a raise dead is just around the corner.
Most fights only involve the players against half a dozen monsters or so. When a PC goes down, that means there will usually be two or so player actions before the monsters can hit the guy who's down. Yes, there are exceptions (multi-attack monsters), but it takes 2 hits on a downed character to kill hiim...a player with few hit points should be pretty wary about going toe-to-toe against the rare monster with 3 attacks a round.
In short: yea, it seems odd at first. But you have to adapt the rules. If "heroic" to you means PCs bouncing up and down like Weebles (and I had players exploit the system like that, before monsters started getting more vicious), then play that way.
I think it's more heroic when heroes are taking actual risks in combat.
"...it's the DM's job to make the players heroic."
Not my idea of fun on either side of the screen, but OK. So, uh, what's the players' job, if you mind my asking?
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;876863Do you guys think doing that kind of thing detracts from a "heroic" game? Some of my players like games like Critical Role (good stuff) where it's the DM's job to make the players be heroic. But I think if I just went at every downed PC with the long knives they would think it's not giving them the chance to be heroic.
You dont do it all the time. Some monsters will switch targets the moment one goes down. The Hyena for example has Rampage. On the round it takes someone down it can move half its movement and make another attack on someone else. Orcs have a simmilar trick to allow them to move fast towards someone hostile. Thus the world feels more natural and the players may start to pick up patterns. "Uh-Oh! Bullywugs! They kept poking me last time after I was down. Dont let them gang up again!"
Personally if a DM was just handing me win after win so Id feel heroic then I would not feel heroic at all.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;876863Do you guys think doing that kind of thing detracts from a "heroic" game? Some of my players like games like Critical Role (good stuff) where it's the DM's job to make the players be heroic. But I think if I just went at every downed PC with the long knives they would think it's not giving them the chance to be heroic.
I think facing actual risk of death makes my PC feel more heroic.
Quote from: Opaopajr;876880"...it's the DM's job to make the players heroic."
Not my idea of fun on either side of the screen, but OK. So, uh, what's the players' job, if you mind my asking?
Well, I personally don't prefer that either. I think it's less a "challenge to survive" and more "do awesome things."
Quote from: Doom;876868If "heroic" to you means PCs bouncing up and down like Weebles (and I had players exploit the system like that, before monsters started getting more vicious), then play that way.
I actually hate that. Breaks immersion for me.
Good point about adapting to the rules.
I wonder if monsters in such a magic-infused world would be aware of this too? Normally only intelligent beings adapt to the healing infused setting, but I wonder if it wouldn't affect the way wildlife works either if it's so common.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;876857It's not like the monsters in-game necessarily know the creature is dead. They just saw it hit the ground.
You could make the same argument about characters. The players know the beastie is dead, but the character may not.
I've always assumed that both player characters and non-player characters/creatures understand when someone is at full HP, half HP or dead without communicating numbers during combat, but only if the non-player character/beastie has at least an average Intelligence. Otherwise, I ran creatures as blind idiots wading into combat without rhyme or reason.
Granted, my own RPG uses damage conditions, which are openly announced by the GM and players whenever they reach them. However, I personally believe a good rule of thumb in D&D is to indicate when someone is at half HP or dead.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;876933You could make the same argument about characters. The players know the beastie is dead, but the character may not.
Well, in my own games I never say "you killed him," I just describe what they did and let them draw their own conclusions. It's just that 99% of the time it involves ramming their sword through the guy's head so it's obvious he's dead.
Some of the options in the DMG surely increase mortality?
Quote from: RPGPundit;877958Some of the options in the DMG surely increase mortality?
Yes. Theres options to remove short rests, to require a healers kit to do any HP recovery, and some others. Not to mention advice not to let the PCs rest just anywhere they please. As well as the sections on limiting access to healing or other elements.
Page 266 DMG. Options section
Healing:
Healers Kit Dependancy: cant spend any dice in a short rest without spending one use of a healers kit.
Healing Surge: is the opposite. Allowing spending rest dice in the middle of combat. Usable once per short rest. Intended for groups with no healers.
Slow Natural Healing: characters do not automatically regain HP on a long rest. Instead they have to spend dice just as in a short rest.
Rest Variants:
Epic Heroism: Short rests are 5 minuts long and long rests are 1 hour long.
Gritty Realism: Short rests are 8 hours and long rest is 7 days.
Combine healer kit dependancy, slow natural healing and gritty realism for the really harsh session.
This weekend watched one of my 7th level parties escape what I thought for sure was an airtight deathtrap they had earned through poor choices.
Despite the sealed steel gate, no other exits, water filled chambers, acid flowing in from all directions, overwhelming enemies on the inside and barracudas waiting on the outside, they still pulled it off. I even got to watch the famed "yo-yo" effect of people healing each other from unconsciousness repeatedly.
One of the issues is that they all have too many class tricks to be cornered. Dimension Doors, rerolls, shielding magic, temporary hit points, abilities to bypass attacks of opportunity - it's a lot for a GM to keep in mind when trying to calculate risk, and you can't just repeatedly negate them.
Quote from: jhkim;876723So I've been running a 5th ed D&D game, and I have trouble killing characters.
And this is why you do not have a D.O.N.G. black-belt.
er. How are they getting up if they are in acid and taking progressive damage.
That could count as a hit and thus a critical and thus two failed death saves. And unless they used magic or potions then the revived character is at 1 HP and pretty darn vulnerable to anything.
The main thing to keep in mind is how plausibly thorough is a trap. If you didn't foresee the characters using some skill to bypass then just shrug and assume that so did whomever in game built the thing.
Quote from: Omega;878000er. How are they getting up if they are in acid and taking progressive damage.
That could count as a hit and thus a critical and thus two failed death saves. And unless they used magic or potions then the revived character is at 1 HP and pretty darn vulnerable to anything.
The main thing to keep in mind is how plausibly thorough is a trap. If you didn't foresee the characters using some skill to bypass then just shrug and assume that so did whomever in game built the thing.
The acid hit at the end of each person's turn and didn't reach every room instantaneously. Plenty of opportunities for tricks and teleports despite the pressure coming from everywhere.
And I did just shrug, as far as they saw. I'm just privately disturbed.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;878008The acid hit at the end of each person's turn and didn't reach every room instantaneously. Plenty of opportunities for tricks and teleports despite the pressure coming from everywhere.
And I did just shrug, as far as they saw. I'm just privately disturbed.
1: What level were they? How long could they keep that up before they deplete everything?
2: Now you know how all those villains feel. ;)
My 4th level cleric of Thor has been denied admission to Valhalla after seeking Glorious Death In Combat against a stone giant, because the DM (a near, dear friend of mine) fudged the fucking dice. :mad:
This was after my 2nd level paladin of Mitra, having gone off on his own to investigate a detect evil-positive nook, was thrashed to 0hp by a yugoloth and he made a point to announce to me that my PC wasn't really dead and would show up again as a fallen/evil paladin.
What can I say? The scars of AD&D 2e and White Wolf run deep in our group. :o
As an update, I did kill a second PC in my session last week. A fighter/cleric fell 70 feet to his death after being ambushed by four Vine Blights while climbing. It was a nasty ambush, and not easily spotted (blights are undetectable until they move).
However, overall I'm still with my overall assessment that individual death without TPK is difficult in 5th edition. Not necessarily a bad thing, but something I have to keep in mind.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;877998This weekend watched one of my 7th level parties escape what I thought for sure was an airtight deathtrap they had earned through poor choices.
Despite the sealed steel gate, no other exits, water filled chambers, acid flowing in from all directions, overwhelming enemies on the inside and barracudas waiting on the outside, they still pulled it off. I even got to watch the famed "yo-yo" effect of people healing each other from unconsciousness repeatedly.
One of the issues is that they all have too many class tricks to be cornered. Dimension Doors, rerolls, shielding magic, temporary hit points, abilities to bypass attacks of opportunity - it's a lot for a GM to keep in mind when trying to calculate risk, and you can't just repeatedly negate them.
Well, if they pulled it off, it sounds like they just did a good job. Or is it that they went full retard but got lucky because of the game itself?
Quote from: jhkim;878062As an update, I did kill a second PC in my session last week. A fighter/cleric fell 70 feet to his death after being ambushed by four Vine Blights while climbing. It was a nasty ambush, and not easily spotted (blights are undetectable until they move).
However, overall I'm still with my overall assessment that individual death without TPK is difficult in 5th edition. Not necessarily a bad thing, but something I have to keep in mind.
In came within 1 hp of killing a PC on Monday - she was a 0, dying, with max 29 hp, and the large gray ooze on top of her did 28 dmg with its crit. She's 4th level Druid.
I would say that if monsters continue attacking fallen PCs, at crit & 2 death save fails per attack then rapid demise is likely. If they ignore the fallen then party can save them.
When is an enemy ever just going to ignore the living PCs attacking them in favor of the dead one though.
The only time I can see it happening is if it's an intelligent and ruthless enemy that knows what he's in for if he leaves the PC alone.
Quote from: S'mon;878165In came within 1 hp of killing a PC on Monday - she was a 0, dying, with max 29 hp, and the large gray ooze on top of her did 28 dmg with its crit. She's 4th level Druid.
I would say that if monsters continue attacking fallen PCs, at crit & 2 death save fails per attack then rapid demise is likely. If they ignore the fallen then party can save them.
Interesting. Did you mark the two failed death saves for the Slime's critical hit? Just one more hit from anyone would have finished the Druid off. Even a failed death save the Druid's following turn would have done it.
So, how was she saved? Healing Word?
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878170When is an enemy ever just going to ignore the living PCs attacking them in favor of the dead one though.
The only time I can see it happening is if it's an intelligent and ruthless enemy that knows what he's in for if he leaves the PC alone.
Most beast and many sapient (language+tool using like humans) enemies should lose morale and not fight to the death, as well. But it depends on how the module is written nowadays... Now, running away, especially deeper into cover, caverns, allies, and other dangers is one of the most annoying things for a party trying to avoid being overwhelmed.
As for fighting to the death and finishing off party members? Well, seems like you answered your own question. There's quite a few more to add, specifically spite, such as say from an outmatched opponent backed into a corner.
Also any sapient (maybe sentient?) creature that understands about other sapients and their healing. If the general world knowledge expects magical healing from intelligent creatures, then other intelligent creatures would make damned sure anyone going down stays down. And further, they would make it a keen point to target the healers first — unless there's some sort of mutual accord between civilizations.
Quote from: Opaopajr;878189Interesting. Did you mark the two failed death saves for the Slime's critical hit? Just one more hit from anyone would have finished the Druid off. Even a failed death save the Druid's following turn would have done it.
So, how was she saved? Healing Word?
Yes, 2 failed death saves. The Bard did some kind of healing on her, not sure if it was HW. Luckily her turn was right before the ooze so she was then able to get away from it.
I had her lose her DEX bonus as well as grant advtg, I think really AC should be based on DEX 0 for unconscious but that + advtg is maybe too much, I liked it that there was a chance the ooze could fail to hurt her after a PC imposed disad on it to try to save her - it hit anyway.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878170When is an enemy ever just going to ignore the living PCs attacking them in favor of the dead one though.
For instance, any time when the attacker has animal intelligence, attacked the party out of hunger, and is big and strong enough to just pick up the downed combatant and run/fly/swim home to its lair with the prey. In fact, as long as the last two conditions are met, it could be more intelligent, as well.
Quote from: S'mon;878205Yes, 2 failed death saves. The Bard did some kind of healing on her, not sure if it was HW. Luckily her turn was right before the ooze so she was then able to get away from it.
I had her lose her DEX bonus as well as grant advtg, I think really AC should be based on DEX 0 for unconscious but that + advtg is maybe too much, I liked it that there was a chance the ooze could fail to hurt her after a PC imposed disad on it to try to save her - it hit anyway.
Yeah, Healing Word, because the Bard sounds like it was not in touch distance to the Druid or Ooze — and I'm assuming lvl 4 with no other funky specials.
Also that thing about DEX just adds to my bugaboo about it being a god stat. That DEX mod to AC is contextually about evasion. Yet that means while
unconscious the character is flopping around like a flapjack. :duh:
Armor I can get, trying to find an opening. Shields DO go away because you drop whatever you are holding and fall prone — and that also makes sense. But apparently DEX is forever, like diamonds!
It's the Giving Tree of stats: seemingly permanent, unremovable AC; the most tagged save for spells and Dodge; part of attack rolls; initiative; and three skills while you're bored.
It really does not need to be used for initiative or to remain on during unconsciousness.
Removing it while unconscious makes sense. But what would you use for initiative instead.
an easy way to stop the "yo-yo" effect is simply say - if you get dropped to zero-health, you get one level of exhaustion. That'll shut that shit down.
And it makes sense.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878170When is an enemy ever just going to ignore the living PCs attacking them in favor of the dead one though.
The only time I can see it happening is if it's an intelligent and ruthless enemy that knows what he's in for if he leaves the PC alone.
Animals. Lots of animals will focus on one target and can be very hard to distract.
Anything that you have committed its attack set to that round. EG: Things with muliple attacks.
Quote from: Omega;878247Animals. Lots of animals will focus on one target and can be very hard to distract.
Anything that you have committed its attack set to that round. EG: Things with muliple attacks.
I usually play animals the other way. They're the easiest to distract since they're not smart enough to realize they should keep attacking. A human would know though.
Quote from: Opaopajr;878218Also that thing about DEX just adds to my bugaboo about it being a god stat. That DEX mod to AC is contextually about evasion. Yet that means while unconscious the character is flopping around like a flapjack. :duh:
The idea according to Mearls was to cut down on what he saw as the "problem" of recalculating AC for various conditions.
sooo. In 5e instead the attacker gets advantage. Which in all honesty does the job of simulating the negation of DEX bonus. Not to mention when unconscious and a few other statuses you automatically fail any DEX saves.
But really. If you dont like that being unconscious still gets DEX bonus. THEN REMOVE DEX BONUS WHILE UNCONSCIOUS instead of bitching endlessly. I am not fond of retaining the DEX bonus for the sake of a trivial streamlining either. And guess what? I changed it. The PCs dont get it, the monsters dont get it when down.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878249I usually play animals the other way. They're the easiest to distract since they're not smart enough to realize they should keep attacking. A human would know though.
Ever been attacked by an animal? Youd change your thoughts ASAP. Animals by dint of being not very bright and often very single minded will sometimes keep savaging a target sometimes even when being harassed by others.
Whereas a intelligent foe who isnt caught up in bloodlust will see that as wasting effort on a downed opponent when there are still hostiles around.
Keep in mind that short of potions and healing magic. Stabalizing someone in 5e does not revive them. They are still unconscious and at 0 HP. Every potion or healing spell used to revive someone is going to gradually deplete those resources.
In one 5e encounter we actually figured out that was the enemies tactic. They were keeping the us occupied with reviving members while slowly wittling us down.
Quote from: tenbones;878242an easy way to stop the "yo-yo" effect is simply say - if you get dropped to zero-health, you get one level of exhaustion. That'll shut that shit down.
And it makes sense.
I was surprised they didnt use it. Exhaustion rules are probably the most useful yet under-used mechanic in 5e. There are so many things it should have been applied to.
And both me and the DM I'm currently gaming with use cumulative exhaustion levels each time you get dropped.
Its not as brutal as AD&D where going to 0 HP meant you were pretty much useless till you got some bed rest. Even if revived with magic. Or truly brutal BX where 0 HP = DEAD.
Part of the reason exhaustion is so powerful in 5e is it's a new thing, so there isn't a trivial unstoppable spell to counter it.
I mean, if exhaustion came out as a real issue in 2e, there'd be a 5e cantrip, first level spell tops, that was something like Energize: target character is no longer exhausted.
It's rather funny there are low level spells to repair entrails spilling out, but no magic to fix being winded, or missing a night's sleep.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878227Removing it while unconscious makes sense. But what would you use for initiative instead.
I'd go with Intelligence. It's a stupid-underused stat in 5e. There are like what, 3 decent spells that require an intelligence save? Is there even 1 monster that makes players roll against Intelligence.
Intelligence can easily be rationalized to "thinking fast." It's hardly worse than Dexterity being rationalized to "more damage, better agility, and better hand/eye coordination."
Quote from: Doom;878343Part of the reason exhaustion is so powerful in 5e is it's a new thing, so there isn't a trivial unstoppable spell to counter it.
I mean, if exhaustion came out as a real issue in 2e, there'd be a 5e cantrip, first level spell tops, that was something like Energize: target character is no longer exhausted.
It's rather funny there are low level spells to repair entrails spilling out, but no magic to fix being winded, or missing a night's sleep.
I thought the same thing. But there are lots of interesting little mechanical things "new" to 5e that have yet to permeate the discussions of how to fix perceived problems from previous editions of play. Exhaustion, Advantage/Disadvantage (which pretty much everyone likes) - I'd also include some of the DMG optional rules like the Faction System which can be used to scale your games in terms of power levels without itemization. Using skills/Feats etc. as rewards.
The moment they introduce some cheap-ass spell to remove exhaustion, it will ruin the entire mechanic. As far as I'm concerned, I want Exhaustion to be a new 5e Sacred Cow.
Quote from: Doom;878343Part of the reason exhaustion is so powerful in 5e is it's a new thing, so there isn't a trivial unstoppable spell to counter it.
It existed in AD&D for going to zero HP but I dont think there was any rule for exhaustion-like effects. Going to zero HP exhaustion in AD&D was more severe. Even if healed with a spell or potion they were in a coma for 1d6 turns and needed a full week of bed-rest where they were so weak they could not fight, cast spells, research, or anything really other than sit quietly and hope to whatever gods are on hand that that never happened again.
Not even Heal could remove that. I checked.
Not sure if 2e removed that or added a spell to counter it?
Quote from: Doom;878345I'd go with Intelligence. It's a stupid-underused stat in 5e. There are like what, 3 decent spells that require an intelligence save? Is there even 1 monster that makes players roll against Intelligence.
Intelligence can easily be rationalized to "thinking fast." It's hardly worse than Dexterity being rationalized to "more damage, better agility, and better hand/eye coordination."
Intelligence for initiative? :eek: Hoo boy Doom, if you thought wizard spells were annoying before, just watch what happens when they are consistently the first thing to go off in combat.
I am quite pleased with the array of 2e initiative methods. I also liked how DEX benefit was to Reaction Adjustment (Surprise roll) and not initiative.
I am of the opinion that no stat is needed to be tied to initiative.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;878517Intelligence for initiative? :eek: Hoo boy Doom, if you thought wizard spells were annoying before, just watch what happens when they are consistently the first thing to go off in combat.
Wizards in 5e
already have high dex we're only talking an extra +1 or +2 here depending on how min/maxed the wizard is. The trouble with the wizards isn't the going first, nearly as much as the nigh uncounter-able spells combined with perfect certainty of always having the best possible spells.
I didn't say it was a perfect thing, but it's tough to rationalize Charisma as the initiative stat, and that's the next "dump stat" for 5e, outside of classes that must have it.
What about WIS. Awareness of your surroundings.
Quote from: Doom;878534I didn't say it was a perfect thing, but it's tough to rationalize Charisma as the initiative stat, and that's the next "dump stat" for 5e, outside of classes that must have it.
I´ve not read 5e, but Charisma usually represent leadership so I could see a connection to initiative.
Quote from: zx81;878561I´ve not read 5e, but Charisma usually represent leadership so I could see a connection to initiative.
Was thinking that too. (No ulterior motive at all for boosting my CHA focused Warlock... nope!)
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;878517Intelligence for initiative? :eek: Hoo boy Doom, if you thought wizard spells were annoying before, just watch what happens when they are consistently the first thing to go off in combat.
Easy to deal with that: Reintroduce casting times. You start casting on your own initiative number and the spell goes off (Spell Level x 2) initiative numbers later.
And, of course, if you get hit while casting, I'd also throw in at least a chance that your spell could be interrupted (no spell this round, but you can try it again later) or lost (resources expended as if the spell had been cast, but it has no effect)...
Quote from: nDervish;878577Easy to deal with that: Reintroduce casting times. You start casting on your own initiative number and the spell goes off (Spell Level x 2) initiative numbers later.
And, of course, if you get hit while casting, I'd also throw in at least a chance that your spell could be interrupted (no spell this round, but you can try it again later) or lost (resources expended as if the spell had been cast, but it has no effect)...
That would be inconvenient to spellcasters, and thus outside the 5e paradigm!
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878540What about WIS. Awareness of your surroundings.
That just shifts it to other casting classes, clerics, druids, and rangers.
And shifting it to CHA moves it to four other casting classes, bards, paladins, sorcerors, and warlocks.
Nope, sorry, there is no solution there at all. Someone somewhere would be getting an unnecessary class synergy benefit. It's like getting First Strike for "winning chargen."
We could stick it in CON, because everyone needs it. But one day soon the psionicist will come, meanwhile fighters, barbarians, and dwarves are pouncing on everyone. It's just a poor solution overall to attach it to a stat, I think.
Just stick to DEX for fucks sake. Its not the be-all-end-all stat some of you make it out to be. Its useful. But so are other stats.
Back on topic. Like that will last.
As for PC death.
The DMG also has some options for making things either harder or easier as I mentioned in a recent other thread here.
There is also the massive damage option and lasting wounds options also from the DMG.
Progressive poisons are another severe problem to a downed character.
Quote from: Opaopajr;878218That DEX mod to AC is contextually about evasion. Yet that means while unconscious the character is flopping around like a flapjack. :duh:
Armor I can get, trying to find an opening. Shields DO go away because you drop whatever you are holding and fall prone — and that also makes sense. But apparently DEX is forever, like diamonds!
Just as hit points are an abstraction, so "unconsciousness" can be; see p197 of PHB, "An attack the reduces you to 0 hit points strikes you directly, leaving a bleeding injury or other trauma, or it simply knocks you unconscious." The
condition is in any case called unconscious (see Appendix A) but the character might still be flopping around; certainly maintaining AC suggests that that is the case.
And if the shield is strapped on to your arm, you might not drop it (doffing it is an action, not a free interaction). The rules variously speak of wearing a shield, carrying a shield (that affects AC) and wielding a shield.
If you do take away the dexterity bonus to AC, what about the unarmored but unconscious monk or barbarian: do they still get the wisdom or constitution bonus to AC?
I'm much more bothered by not being able simply to cut the throat of someone who is sleeping but has 50 hit points.
Quote from: rawma;878693I'm much more bothered by not being able simply to cut the throat of someone who is sleeping but has 50 hit points.
Couldn't that fall under the Improvise an Action rule?
Quote from: rawma;878693I'm much more bothered by not being able simply to cut the throat of someone who is sleeping but has 50 hit points.
Two things here.
1: What implies that you allways unerringly can? This is a fantasy setting where everything and its cousin twice removed are out to kill you messily. You think anyone on a world where monsters literally crawl out of the woodwork and rugs can kill you is going to sleep heavy? Im surprised anyone sleeps at all. :eek: Real world history has shown that trying to kill someone in their sleep is not a guarantee of success.
2: Who says you ca not kill someone in one go no matter their HP if unconcious, restrained, etc? Just ask the DM if you can?
But be aware that if you do it. So will the enemy. Exactly this came up in a session. The wizard slept a group of enemies and wanted to slit their throats.
I said "Ok. But be aware that from now on that may happen to you. You forfeit any right to complain if/when it happens.".
NEXT did have the rules in there during the playtest up to the last packet. But not for instakills from full HP.
Coup de Grace
When a foe is unconscious you can use your action to perform a coup de grace against an unconscious creature within 5 feet.
Requires an attack roll.
If you hit, the attack is automatically a critical hit.
A creature already at 0 hit points dies.
Encounter circumstances can be the difference between life and death sometimes. A while back in my 5E campaign, the party engaged in combat with a gang of roided-up mutant trolls. The combat took place in a ravine where the trolls had their lair.
These trolls had constructed traps around their lair which contributed to the difficulty of the encounter. The paladin who was already seriously wounded earlier in the encounter, fell into one of the spiked pit traps. He died at the bottom of a spiked pit while the battle continued above. The party was having a rough time of it, and no one could get to the paladin before he expired.
It is fairly easy to stabilize a fallen companion provided you are able to get to them. This particular battlefield took away that assumption.
When I do 'coup de grace' house-ruling in MOST of my campaigns (I might have some ultra-gritty ones where I'd just say "ok he's dead"), I say that a hit against a helpless opponent automatically hits and does maximum damage, and any class with a 'backstab' does maximum backstab damage.
Is this really a problem with the game? Doing a coup-de-grace seems pretty straightforward circumstantially.
Even if you don't kill someone out of hand, you could always maim the shit out of them. But if you're KO'd and the enemies win and they intend on killing you... well does it matter?
Conversely, who is doing a Coup-de-Grace in the middle of a fight with more combatants still going? I guess it could happen but I'm not sure what the buggaboo is about?
Kill/maim them if they're down - give them their two "wound-levels" or whatever. Or just be done with it, if coupe-de-grace is the intent. Is it a "rules" thing or a flavor thing that is troubling thing?
edit: if it's about sleeping/helpless people - fuck it, make it an autocrit. Just be consistent.
Quote from: tenbones;879423Is this really a problem with the game? Doing a coup-de-grace seems pretty straightforward circumstantially.
Even if you don't kill someone out of hand, you could always maim the shit out of them. But if you're KO'd and the enemies win and they intend on killing you... well does it matter?
Conversely, who is doing a Coup-de-Grace in the middle of a fight with more combatants still going? I guess it could happen but I'm not sure what the buggaboo is about?
It happens sometimes. There's a lot of reasons why someone in the middle of a huge and dangerous fight might take an extra few seconds before risking himself again, under the excuse of 'finishing off' an opponent.
Of course, it happened more often in real life than it does in an RPG, where players tend to think more strategically about wanting to end the battle as quickly as possible.
Killing a human is relatively easy.
Killing a human *now*, in the manner you specify, possibly without making any noise is not so easy.
In the heat of battle, a free hit against someone doing max damage or something like that is one thing. Taking the time to ensure a definite kill via heartstab, throatslit, skullpulp, whatever is something different.
Against an unsuspecting opponent you have a definite advantage, but unsuspecting is going to turn into suspecting very quickly, and getting a one-shot instant kill isn't that easy, even for the pros.
Against a sleeping opponent, well he's dead, but that's not the hard part, the hard part is making sure he expires quietly.
So in any flavor of D&D it ranges from "dead, no roll" to "make a normal hit and damage roll" to everything in between.
Quote from: CRKrueger;879885Against a sleeping opponent, well he's dead,
History says otherwise. Sleeping? Bound? People have survived attempts to off them.
The better question is. What does the individual DM in a game want to deal with? Insta death sleepers or something else? Choose something and stick with it. If the players can so can the monsters.