Quote from: Shipyard Locked;877998This weekend watched one of my 7th level parties escape what I thought for sure was an airtight deathtrap they had earned through poor choices.

Despite the sealed steel gate, no other exits, water filled chambers, acid flowing in from all directions, overwhelming enemies on the inside and barracudas waiting on the outside, they still pulled it off. I even got to watch the famed "yo-yo" effect of people healing each other from unconsciousness repeatedly.

One of the issues is that they all have too many class tricks to be cornered. Dimension Doors, rerolls, shielding magic, temporary hit points, abilities to bypass attacks of opportunity - it's a lot for a GM to keep in mind when trying to calculate risk, and you can't just repeatedly negate them.

Well, if they pulled it off, it sounds like they just did a good job. Or is it that they went full retard but got lucky because of the game itself?

Quote from: jhkim;878062As an update, I did kill a second PC in my session last week. A fighter/cleric fell 70 feet to his death after being ambushed by four Vine Blights while climbing. It was a nasty ambush, and not easily spotted (blights are undetectable until they move).

However, overall I'm still with my overall assessment that individual death without TPK is difficult in 5th edition. Not necessarily a bad thing, but something I have to keep in mind.

In came within 1 hp of killing a PC on Monday - she was a 0, dying, with max 29 hp, and the large gray ooze on top of her did 28 dmg with its crit. She's 4th level Druid.

I would say that if monsters continue attacking fallen PCs, at crit & 2 death save fails per attack then rapid demise is likely. If they ignore the fallen then party can save them.

When is an enemy ever just going to ignore the living PCs attacking them in favor of the dead one though.

The only time I can see it happening is if it's an intelligent and ruthless enemy that knows what he's in for if he leaves the PC alone.

Quote from: S'mon;878165In came within 1 hp of killing a PC on Monday - she was a 0, dying, with max 29 hp, and the large gray ooze on top of her did 28 dmg with its crit. She's 4th level Druid.

I would say that if monsters continue attacking fallen PCs, at crit & 2 death save fails per attack then rapid demise is likely. If they ignore the fallen then party can save them.

Interesting. Did you mark the two failed death saves for the Slime's critical hit? Just one more hit from anyone would have finished the Druid off. Even a failed death save the Druid's following turn would have done it.

So, how was she saved? Healing Word?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878170When is an enemy ever just going to ignore the living PCs attacking them in favor of the dead one though.

The only time I can see it happening is if it's an intelligent and ruthless enemy that knows what he's in for if he leaves the PC alone.

Most beast and many sapient (language+tool using like humans) enemies should lose morale and not fight to the death, as well. But it depends on how the module is written nowadays... Now, running away, especially deeper into cover, caverns, allies, and other dangers is one of the most annoying things for a party trying to avoid being overwhelmed.

As for fighting to the death and finishing off party members? Well, seems like you answered your own question. There's quite a few more to add, specifically spite, such as say from an outmatched opponent backed into a corner.

Also any sapient (maybe sentient?) creature that understands about other sapients and their healing. If the general world knowledge expects magical healing from intelligent creatures, then other intelligent creatures would make damned sure anyone going down stays down. And further, they would make it a keen point to target the healers first — unless there's some sort of mutual accord between civilizations.

Quote from: Opaopajr;878189Interesting. Did you mark the two failed death saves for the Slime's critical hit? Just one more hit from anyone would have finished the Druid off. Even a failed death save the Druid's following turn would have done it.

So, how was she saved? Healing Word?

Yes, 2 failed death saves. The Bard did some kind of healing on her, not sure if it was HW. Luckily her turn was right before the ooze so she was then able to get away from it.

I had her lose her DEX bonus as well as grant advtg, I think really AC should be  based on DEX 0 for unconscious but that + advtg is maybe too much, I liked it that there was a chance the ooze could fail to hurt her after a PC imposed disad on it to try to save her - it hit anyway.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878170When is an enemy ever just going to ignore the living PCs attacking them in favor of the dead one though.

For instance, any time when the attacker has animal intelligence, attacked the party out of hunger, and is big and strong enough to just pick up the downed combatant and run/fly/swim home to its lair with the prey. In fact, as long as the last two conditions are met, it could be more intelligent, as well.

Quote from: S'mon;878205Yes, 2 failed death saves. The Bard did some kind of healing on her, not sure if it was HW. Luckily her turn was right before the ooze so she was then able to get away from it.

I had her lose her DEX bonus as well as grant advtg, I think really AC should be  based on DEX 0 for unconscious but that + advtg is maybe too much, I liked it that there was a chance the ooze could fail to hurt her after a PC imposed disad on it to try to save her - it hit anyway.

Yeah, Healing Word, because the Bard sounds like it was not in touch distance to the Druid or Ooze — and I'm assuming lvl 4 with no other funky specials.

Also that thing about DEX just adds to my bugaboo about it being a god stat. That DEX mod to AC is contextually about evasion. Yet that means while unconscious the character is flopping around like a flapjack. :duh:

Armor I can get, trying to find an opening. Shields DO go away because you drop whatever you are holding and fall prone — and that also makes sense. But apparently DEX is forever, like diamonds!

It's the Giving Tree of stats: seemingly permanent, unremovable AC; the most tagged save for spells and Dodge; part of attack rolls; initiative; and three skills while you're bored.

It really does not need to be used for initiative or to remain on during unconsciousness.

Removing it while unconscious makes sense. But what would you use for initiative instead.

an easy way to stop the "yo-yo" effect is simply say - if you get dropped to zero-health, you get one level of exhaustion. That'll shut that shit down.

And it makes sense.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878170When is an enemy ever just going to ignore the living PCs attacking them in favor of the dead one though.

The only time I can see it happening is if it's an intelligent and ruthless enemy that knows what he's in for if he leaves the PC alone.

Animals. Lots of animals will focus on one target and can be very hard to distract.

Anything that you have committed its attack set to that round. EG: Things with muliple attacks.

Quote from: Omega;878247Animals. Lots of animals will focus on one target and can be very hard to distract.

Anything that you have committed its attack set to that round. EG: Things with muliple attacks.

I usually play animals the other way. They're the easiest to distract since they're not smart enough to realize they should keep attacking. A human would know though.

Quote from: Opaopajr;878218Also that thing about DEX just adds to my bugaboo about it being a god stat. That DEX mod to AC is contextually about evasion. Yet that means while unconscious the character is flopping around like a flapjack. :duh:

The idea according to Mearls was to cut down on what he saw as the "problem" of recalculating AC for various conditions.

sooo. In 5e instead the attacker gets advantage. Which in all honesty does the job of simulating the negation of DEX bonus. Not to mention when unconscious and a few other statuses you automatically fail any DEX saves.

But really. If you dont like that being unconscious still gets DEX bonus. THEN REMOVE DEX BONUS WHILE UNCONSCIOUS instead of bitching endlessly. I am not fond of retaining the DEX bonus for the sake of a trivial streamlining either. And guess what? I changed it. The PCs dont get it, the monsters dont get it when down.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878249I usually play animals the other way. They're the easiest to distract since they're not smart enough to realize they should keep attacking. A human would know though.

Ever been attacked by an animal? Youd change your thoughts ASAP. Animals by dint of being not very bright and often very single minded will sometimes keep savaging a target sometimes even when being harassed by others.

Whereas a intelligent foe who isnt caught up in bloodlust will see that as wasting effort on a downed opponent when there are still hostiles around.

Keep in mind that short of potions and healing magic. Stabalizing someone in 5e does not revive them. They are still unconscious and at 0 HP. Every potion or healing spell used to revive someone is going to gradually deplete those resources.

In one 5e encounter we actually figured out that was the enemies tactic. They were keeping the us occupied with reviving members while slowly wittling us down.

Quote from: tenbones;878242an easy way to stop the "yo-yo" effect is simply say - if you get dropped to zero-health, you get one level of exhaustion. That'll shut that shit down.

And it makes sense.

I was surprised they didnt use it. Exhaustion rules are probably the most useful yet under-used mechanic in 5e. There are so many things it should have been applied to.

And both me and the DM I'm currently gaming with use cumulative exhaustion levels each time you get dropped.

Its not as brutal as AD&D where going to 0 HP meant you were pretty much useless till you got some bed rest. Even if revived with magic. Or truly brutal BX where 0 HP = DEAD.

Part of the reason exhaustion is so powerful in 5e is it's a new thing, so there isn't a trivial unstoppable spell to counter it.

I mean, if exhaustion came out as a real issue in 2e, there'd be a 5e cantrip, first level spell tops, that was something like Energize: target character is no longer exhausted.

It's rather funny there are low level spells to repair entrails spilling out, but no magic to fix being winded, or missing a night's sleep.