Quote from: Pat;1129362Leave the stuff like holidays as flavor. Don't spell them out, and for Tarterus' sake don't make another of those tiresome calendars. Instead, bring them in as flavor, when needed. Want a holy day for an adventure? Poof! It's a holy day. Does your cleric need something to do in the downtime between adventures? Make up some observance. Try to be consistent with those details once established, but don't worry too much about it.

I find this really depends on the campaign. Your advice works for most D&D fantasy, but running Primeval Thule I did find I needed to work through the calendar; it's in the arctic so day length varies from 0 to 24 hours and the passing of the seasons is of critical importance, with major events such as first sunrise each having their own festival. I had to have it all straight for the players to grok what was going on and engage with the setting long term.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1129399If we have a cleric without god or religion, then why call that person a cleric at all? Why call it divine magic? Just make them another kind of wizard. It's like a black mage or a white mage. Some wizards are good at casting spells to blow things up, some wizards are good at casting healing spells. There we go, secular clerics. Because if you remove religion from the cleric, they aren't really clerics anymore, they are just a set of powers that the character can use and so it might as well be another kind of wizardry.

Lets see... in order for this to work we need clerical powers that are distinct from wizardry in setting, divine/spiritual sources of that power, but the game is to justify characters who can wield these powers without worship of an actual god?  Sounds like fun, lets play!

• Sometimes, a different type of wizard might be all a cleric is.  The cleric might argue, but then again other people might argue back at them.  Like the Witcher example mentioned above.  Sure, the wizards think that the priests are just engaging in self hypnosis to manipulate chaos, but is it true?  Might be that they are trancing to become one with some other entity and drive their abilities.  The entity might notice or might not, but clerics might be the cosmological equivalent of fleas to these nigh infinite beings.  Followers getting smote might just be getting scratched out of irritation than from any perceived wrong doing.
• Then you can have a setting where a cleric has all the trappings of a Ba'al Shem.  They know how to invoke divine names and create divine charms, but you get one or two that treats it just like any other craft and not as a religious calling.  Or in a bardic sense, Angels really like hymns.  A lot.  A well performed hymn will get an angel to manifest a themed miracle out of appreciation, but the song would work as well for any given soprano as it would for a talented priest.  That would be a closely guarded secret of a religion, though.  Can't have any singer off the street learn that miracles can be had for the price of a song!  Manipulation of the Symphony could be something else in theme.  Subtly change the music of the spheres to create miracles, where wizards deal with more material powers.
• An individual god might say to a champion "You shall do my wonders" and regardless of whether that adventurer is part of their official fan club, that person might say yes to that.  Maybe it is because there is nobody else available that has the mettle to do the task needed.  Maybe that person is to be an example that nobody is above the authority of that god.  Maybe the god wants to grant that person power to convert them to be one of the faithful.  
• Maybe being empowered as a cleric in a given setting is irrevocable.  Once chosen, there is no going back.  If the person goes rogue, then other faithful might be tasked to hunt them down, but that particular caster remains an apostate.  Gods would have to make sure they are picking the right person, but fate is fickle and humans aren't always as strong as you want them to be.  A particular cleric could be spending a glorified retirement just sitting about, charging for salvation and letting lesser priests to the actual ceremony work, but since the con is keeping the status quo, nobody really cares.
• Maybe there is conflict between the ascetic tradition that develops powers practically identical to the gifts of the gods, but worships nothing in particular.  Enlightenment brings its own power, but temples and more jealous gods call them witches and sorcerers.  Especially if the power that these devotees tap feels more Infernal than Heavenly in nature.
• In another setting maybe only wizards have spells of any kind, but anybody who has the conviction that matches Heaven's purpose can be blessed to champion the virtues involved, regardless of whether that crusader is ever seen in a church. Once so blessed they  have abilities that mirror what we are used to seeing out of paladins.  In a setting like that most power and blessings might be seen in cities of the faithful where there are churches and temples, but occasionally there are others chosen to go be the sword and shield of civilization out in the wild.
• Could be that the gods are actually dead, every single one of them.  They all murdered each other in a massive war, but the angels and saints remain, trying to make sure the power that radiates from the empty thrones are used by worthy souls.  There is nobody to direct prayers too and the servitors that remain aren't as infallible as they would like to think.  And if you get a Saint who decides that power belongs entirely in the hands of mortals from now on, there might be a black market in divine empowerment.
• Clerics might just be wizards who pull their power from outside of the world.  They arrange themselves into religions and bind themselves to entities on occasion, but though their powers are distinct, they themselves have only their dogma to assure them that they are actually servants of divine beings.
• In a world with a divine bureaucracy the title of Cleric might be literal.  Just somebody who filled out the right paperwork, sat through the right waiting periods, got everything stamped and signed and licensed and now has a job.  Keep doing that job and your licence won't be revoked.  You can be every bit of a secular Dawkins-esque asshole that you want, so long as you don't step so out of line that you get fired.  Temples might not be necessary to the order of things, but don't go fucking up the government of Heaven or Hell.
• Assuming you wanted to get dark about things, a character might be able to become a Cleric by catching, killing, and ritualistically eating angels.  Somebody might be able to convince themselves that they are good and virtuous because they only eat FALLEN angels, but that doesn't mean that the real thing looks kindly on them.  However, fallen angels might treat these god eaters as rabid hounds... dangerous, but useful if you point them in the right direction.
• In a WH40K vein, the God in question is just a corpse being fed a slurry of psychic sacrifices and the ones that survive go out into the world able to draw on the power of a glorified battery with a church watching their every move to make sure they keep to acceptable behavior.  There is always the possibility of escape, though...
• Back in the days of Rogue Trader you had the idea of the Star Children.  People with pieces of the Emperor's soul in them who could work miracles and fight demons on their own terms.
• To turn things around on their heads, maybe humans used to BE gods!  Clerics then become those who are awakening to their own divinity while the Church is comprised mostly of dogmatic wizards in an illuminati level conspiracy designed to keep them in power and the rest of us in place.  You might still have heroic wizards and villainous clerics, but divinity has been beaten down and it is up to clerics to restore it.
• Ancestors might have managed to stick around rather than fade into the mystery of the afterlife.  If enough of them managed to stay around, they might be able to help out their ancestors out of a sense of filial loyalty instead of a dynamic of worship.  Same powers, not wizards, just granddad trying to keep the family alive.  They turn undead because Great Uncle Methuselah says GET BACK IN YOUR TOMB, SO HELP ME.  What the hell are you doing, sucking the blood of our allied clans,  your mother is literally rolling over in her grave because of you!
• Clerics could be wielding a power that has its own goal and purpose, but whether or not it is intelligent is up for debate.  It infuses the world and keeps devils in Hell (a literal underworld), but can also be used by people who devote themselves to its purpose, even if it isn't a god that has the capability to respond to worship.  It just clings to like minded souls like iron filaments to a magnet.  The more those souls do things that correspond to the attributes of this force, the more power they can wield.
• Now that I think about it, doesn't Pundit have a setting where a cleric is just somebody who knows how to properly petition G.O.D., the nigh-insane AI that controls the Long Sun setting?  Mechanically they are clerics and are basically in theme as people who do the will of G.O.D., but in setting you might just have somebody who knows what they are doing and treats the job like trying to keep a senile CEO in line while milking all the benefits as possible.

So there you go.  A bunch of scenarios where you can have characters that are functionally identical to clerics or paladins, but can run a wide variety of points of view, from Zealot to Atheist and even on occasion all the way over to Maltheist!

You can even still set up paladins that can only be Lawful Good champions of virtue without them having to pray regularly to their Crystal Dragon Jesus.  Unless the paladin has ritualistically implanted a shard of the CDJ into their body and then praying to it keeps it from exploding, but that is another scenario altogether.

Quote from: Jaeger;1129403That is functionally what D&D Clerics are - just another type of magic user. They use exactly the same spell list.

I am a big proponent of Divine Miracles being handled different systematically than Magic in any RPG. Otherwise, what's the point?

I don't really mind cuz the idea of "arcane" and "divine" magic as separate things, and that "clerics heal/wizards destroy" is largely a game convention anyways. Most real life mystical traditions have a heavy spiritual component. The Hermetic traditions from which fantasy wizards draw heavy inspiration from possess strong theological elements, call upon angels in their rituals and believe in the notion of an ultimate reality referred to as God, the All, or the One.

It's only in D&D, with its reliance on character classes to define character abilities and the need to impose niche protections to ensure those classes remain relevant that we need separate "divine" (clerics heal) and "arcane" (wizards destroy) magic.

Additionally, from a strictly mechanical point of view it's more efficient to have just one universal magic system that defines how magic works in the game in general. Then have multiple mystical traditions that use that core system as a base, but modify what types of magic practitioners have access to, plus any special trappings they're subject to when using magic. That way the mechanics that players must learn and use during play remain consistent, and (presumably) so does the power level of the magic involved.

Quote from: jhkim;1129407A number of games have a divide between spirit magic and hermetic magic -- like RuneQuest and Shadowrun as well as many others. Spirit magic isn't divine, but it is distinct from the hermetic book-learning magic that wizards use. Both can be distinct from divine magic, but sometimes there's a blending between spirit magic and divine magic.

I could easily picture a setting where non-priest shamans use the same kind of magic as priests.

Along related lines, in the real world, there is often a grey area between a priest and a non-religious scholar or functionary. There are shamans, monks/nuns, witch doctors, kabbalists, and others who blur the lines between religious priests and secular sorcerers.

Hermetic and shaman magic in Shadowrun is not fundamentally different from each other, though, but rather more a matter of style and outlook. Both types of mages have access to fundamentally the same type of magic for purposes of the game mechanics. It's just that shamanism tends to emphasize spirit summoning, while hermetic mages tend to emphasize proper spellcasting. But both traditions may gain access to spirit summoning and spellcasting.

Quote from: Shasarak;1129411I have seen far too many religions to believe that making up shit that sounds cool is any different to what really happened except maybe Greenwood used less psychodelics for his ideas.

And therein lies the problem.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1129417I don't really mind cuz the idea of "arcane" and "divine" magic as separate things, and that "clerics heal/wizards destroy" is largely a game convention anyways. Most real life mystical traditions have a heavy spiritual component. The Hermetic traditions from which fantasy wizards draw heavy inspiration from possess strong theological elements, call upon angels in their rituals and believe in the notion of an ultimate reality referred to as God, the All, or the One.[

It's only in D&D, with its reliance on character classes to define character abilities and the need to impose niche protections to ensure those classes remain relevant that we need separate "divine" (clerics heal) and "arcane" (wizards destroy) magic.

This is really, really true.  Many many magic users in myth or folklore at least acknowledge that somebody else is often doing the heavy lifting for them.  Even Dr. Strange recognizes that the entities in his spells are real beings that will eventually come calling for their bill.

 

QuoteAdditionally, from a strictly mechanical point of view it's more efficient to have just one universal magic system that defines how magic works in the game in general. Then have multiple mystical traditions that use that core system as a base, but modify what types of magic practitioners have access to, plus any special trappings they're subject to when using magic. That way the mechanics that players must learn and use during play remain consistent, and (presumably) so does the power level of the magic involved.

Which is why I think that classes (if you are going to have them) should allow wide variations on a theme instead of being locked down to one particular type.  Just like it isn't fun if the only type of Fighter you can be is a heavy armored pole-arm wielder, if being a cleric leaves no room for sectarian conflict, heresy, or any other ineffable mysteries, then the class is just a straight jacket to one style and one style only.

Clerics are slightly martial theurges who work wonders with divine themes.  They can be good, bad, holy, or profane.  Paladins are completely martial champions of virtue and honor who wield powers of light and goodness.  They may be ( and most often are ) powered by Something Else, but most often that power is possible to use more by conviction than training.

Outside of that, I say explore options, conflict, and the drama that can rise up from them if you want to.  Or if you don't want to, don't.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1129418And therein lies the problem.

Considering some of the shit that Greenwood makes clear is perfectly fine in the Really Real Toril, he might have had too many.  Seriously, just... just lay off the casual incest and borderline pedophilia, will you, Ed?

The best take I have seen on Religion was the Book of the Righteousness from Green Ronin. It is a 3E book yet it details holy days, ranks of the clergy, sayings along with Myths of the Gods presented in the book. I find the whol atheist angle in a world where the avatar of gods can be seen and interact with their worshipers bullshit. I can understand not wanting to bend the knee to any god or disliking religion. When god XYZ can send his herald to help defeat an opposing gods other avatar. Then going "nah fake must be swamp gas". It's as bad as Eclipse Phase rpg with their take on how all organized religions except Islam don't survive the transistion to a post-human world. All religions would collapse when it is shown that a soul can be shipped from one body or another. No heaven, hell or any godly intermediary is needed.

Quote from: Shasarak;1129411I have seen far too many religions to believe that making up shit that sounds cool is any different to what really happened except maybe Greenwood used less psychodelics for his ideas.

If you believe that all religions are made up nonsense, then you are unable to distinguish actual relevant differences between various religions.

And are therefore incapable of recognizing the difference between Greenwoods Forgotten Realms claptrap, and an RPG setting belief system made by someone who actually understands religion.

Quote from: Jaeger;1129431If you believe that all religions are made up nonsense, then you are unable to distinguish actual relevant differences between various religions.

And are therefore incapable of recognizing the difference between Greenwoods Forgotten Realms claptrap, and an RPG setting belief system made by someone who actually understands religion.

Well of course I am not saying your religion is made up nonsense.  That one was definitely made up by someone who actually understood religion.

Quote from: Manic Modron;1129426Considering some of the shit that Greenwood makes clear is perfectly fine in the Really Real Toril, he might have had too many.  Seriously, just... just lay off the casual incest and borderline pedophilia, will you, Ed?

Tutankhamun married his half-sister Ankhesenamun.  But then again he was a God so I guess casual incest is allowed in that situation.

Quote from: Shasarak;1129432Well of course I am not saying your religion is made up nonsense.  That one was definitely made up by someone who actually understood religion.

Mlady *tips hat*

Quote from: Shasarak;1129432Well of course I am not saying your religion is made up nonsense.  That one was definitely made up by someone who actually understood religion.

LOLZ. Please.

You mean no such thing.

You do better when you unashamedly stick to your guns.

Quote from: Shasarak;1129233Well of course Scientology is more rigorous and foundational, it is based on Science!



I am not sure that is right.  I get the impression that Ed Greenwood knew what he was writing up and then the people who came in after especially us dear readers dont appreciate the context of living in such a world.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1129287What I was objecting to in your statement was the 'without evidence or even against evidence' part of the definition. In the traditional Christian understanding of faith, there is plenty of evidence for God and His self-revelation in Christ ... it's just not sufficient to compel the assent of the mind, as opposed to direct experience or self-evident chains of logic.

Where is this type of thinking acceptable outside of religion. What field of study?

Quote from: Arnwolf666;1129507Where is this type of thinking acceptable outside of religion. What field of study?

Sociology.

badum-tss.mp3

Quote from: Jaeger;1129493LOLZ. Please.

You mean no such thing.

You do better when you unashamedly stick to your guns.

Sigh.