Premise: this will not be one of those "what's better?" questions.
After a 13 years campaign, started with ADS&D 2nd Ed. (1999-2006) and finished with D&D 3.5 (2006-2012). I and my group took a hiatus from role-playing. Except fro the stray Cthulhu adventure (we use the French 30° Anniversarie Edition - which is basically a never published in English 6.5) we devoted ourselves to tabletop and various types of boardgames (we are currently loving "The Lord of the Rings LCG" and "Mansions of Madness 2nd Ed.)
For these reasons I totally missed D&D 5th Ed. and I never played Pathfinder beyond some simple adventures (I do have the main book and the Monster Manual) - and for a month or so. However, for the upcoming season there are "rumbles" about playing fantasy RPGs again.
I made the aforementioned premise to make clear how I did know nothing about the current situation.
I was surprised to discover how much supplements Pathfinder put out. They are, now, what TSR/Wizards were in the '90s and early 2000s: lot of sourcebooks, adventures, novels, comics etc...
OTOH, Wizards does seem to be very "stingy" about what they do publish for 5th Ed. True, they started late, but after two years 3E was full of supplements, splatbooks, the Forgotten Realms campaign setting etc. Browsing their product list, now, shows (beyond the Core Books) some multi-part adventures, a sourcebook on a "slice" of the Forgotten Realms (the Sword Coast) and little else.
While I do plan to buy, at the very least, the core books and the Sword Coast supplement (which, I read, is based on the emergency plan that R:A: Salvatore and Ed Greenwood put together to "save the original Realms" after the horrifying 4th Ed. and the certainty that they would have floundered - along with the edition in a general sense), I'm baffled. Paizo is going at full steam with Pathfinder, Wizards doesn't seem to care much about "filling the shelves".
So, what's the current Paizo/Wizards situation right now? Once again, I'm not interested about the "better product" - only in what is happening behind the scenes, and why certain publishing policies were chosen.
Links with more info are also appreciated.
Thanks!
Edited: for typos.
WOTC tried pushing out tons of books for the earlier editions and it almost killed them because people stopping buying their stuff. Now they pulled it back to stuff everyone will buy and are making money again.
The overall quality of 5e books has also been generally better on the whole as a result too.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;989125WOTC tried pushing out tons of books for the earlier editions and it almost killed them because people stopping buying their stuff. Now they pulled it back to stuff everyone will buy and are making money again.
I think that it's because, especially for TSR, D&D was a LARGE % of their total sales, so they needed to put out more stuff to expand the company rather than just considering it a product in their stable.
With 5e, I think that Hasbro is happy keeping D&D 5e relatively small but with a higher % profit (I have no idea if total profit is higher, but I'd definitely bet that that % is much better since they're not cannibalizing their own sales). Plus - from what I've heard (I have NO IDEA if it's true) but part of the reason to publish 5e was just to keep the D&D license healthy to do other stuff with it - such as a bunch of successful board-games etc.
For Paizo as much as TSR - Pathfinder is the whole kit and caboodle. (At least until Starfinder just came out - but it's sort of Pathfinder in space - albeit with significant rules tweaks.) Now - unlike from what I've heard of TSR (before my time) Paizo has kept up a mostly very solid quality of product, especially in their modules & APs. (which - isn't super surprising since that's where they started) I know people who aren't huge fans of the Pathfinder system who play it for the APs.
The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.
I am deleting my content.
I recommend you do the same.
Paizo took an opportunity when D&D4 came out, largely because it was a controversial edition that naturally divided their own market.
5E was, at least, properly play tested and took feedback from the whole D&D/RPG community and not just those that thought they knew it all.
The current state of affairs is that D&D is back on top, but Paizo's Pathfinder still has a loyal fanbase. 5E has a slower delivery, but this is intended, as supplements don't really make money for WotC. The core books take most of the unit sales, and the brand has more value through the potential of other mediums (movies, computer games) and other forms of game (boardgames, miniatures, etc). Moreover, WotC are just being measured and cautious in allowing the game to grow rather than have a tidal wave of supplements of variable quality. Paizo, by contrast has a different business plan, and needs to keep selling supplements and spinoff games (like Starfinder) to it's fanbase.
My view is that, over the course of as long as a decade, Paizo will gradually decline as Pathfinder does. WotC has a longer lifespan, not just because of D&D, but the value of the D&D brand ("the first ever roleplaying game") will keep that game around for a lot longer.
Quote from: Reckall;989122So, what's the current Paizo/Wizards situation right now? Once again, I'm not interested about the "better product" - only in what is happening behind the scenes, and why certain publishing policies were chosen.
You don't to have to take our word or buy anything to see what is what.
Pathfinder Reference Document (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/)
Pathfinder Starting Point (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/gettingStarted.html)
D&D 5th edition SRD (http://www.5esrd.com/)
D&D 5th edition Basic rules (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/basicrules) (full rules but less stuff (classes, races, monsters, etc) the core books)
Pathfinder and D&D 5e releases lots of adventures. D&D 5e has only two quasi rules supplements Sword Coast and Volo Guide to Monsters. Both are very much optional. D&D 5e is straightforward to get into and run. Pathfinder is based off of D&D 3.X and while straightforward at low levels the number of options quickly expand. A lot of hobbyists like the choices that Pathfinder has to offer.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;989151For a long time, the common wisdom is that adventure scenarios sell less than splatbooks (and that is true, at least until the splatbook attrition sets in) and therefore publishers shouldn't waste their time on them. This overlooks a couple key factors: First, a healthy supply of adventure scenarios makes the game far easier for GMs to run, which means more GMs run the game, which means the game gets introduced to more players (who may also become GMs). Second, the appetite for new adventures among people who use them does not satiate. You may end up with all the character options or monsters you feel like you need; but as long as you have players playing through them, you'll always have more demand for the next adventure path. And that's, basically, Paizo's solution.
Yes - I think that RPG publishers should think of modules/APs sort of like marketing. If it makes $ - great, but if you break even it's probably worth putting out solid quality ones. (To add to your point - PFS is a pretty big deal and helps Paizo maintain presence at FLGSs.)
The "stingyness" was an intentional choice right from the beginning. It was a way to avoid the rules-bloat (and general material-bloat) of earlier editions.
Every player has a theoretical upper limit to how many rules he is willing to learn, and for most players, it's not that high. At some point, you lose your ability to sell new rules expansions to the players, and your sales collapse.
WotC also has the DM's Guild where you can find a lot of the niche rules options that you might be looking for. Official rules are sparse (and about to be expanded through Xanathar's Guide printing the Unearthed Arcana material) with the community filling in any perceived gaps.
The Pathfinder players seem to be nicer and have better manners than the D&D 5e players do - granted thats from a store employee point of view.
Also the Pathfinder groups are much more with it and have more of a clue in general.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Koltar;990108The Pathfinder players seem to be nicer and have better manners than the D&D 5e players do - granted thats from a store employee point of view.
Also the Pathfinder groups are much more with it and have more of a clue in general.
I suspect that these observations vary a lot from store to store.
At my store it was the opposite. The PF players were rude and loud and wouldn't give the customers room to wander around to look at product, and eventually the PF Society was asked to leave the store and find another location to play. Our current 5E AL group is more polite and respectful of the customers.
Yeah, D&D has intentionally decided to go with limited releases of stuff that's mostly focused on play, as a way to avoid rules-bloat, and from what we've seen it appears to actually be working. As I said, this was Mearls' plan from the start (he told me so); I had my serious doubts that WoTC could stick to it, but they seem to be doing well so far.
I got today my D&D 5th Ed books (as I said, I already own the basics of Pathfinder) and I'm liking what I'm seeing. I wonder how much of 3.5th Ed. I can adapt, but I can run a couple of test adventures and see.
My group is willing to give 5th Ed. a whirl. However, they are still inclined to play 3.5E + a couple of tweaks from Pathfinder.
I now understand WotC's logic re: 5th Ed. My remaining doubt, however, is why they are so "stingy" with the FR, too: there is nothing comparable - in terms of fluff - to what even the basic 3E books put out.
I've got the 3.0 forgotten realms book. Its the worst d&d book I own. You want more of that for 5th?
Some gamers are wierd man.
Quote from: Headless;991405I've got the 3.0 forgotten realms book. Its the worst d&d book I own. You want more of that for 5th?
Some gamers are wierd man.
I do know weird gamers who consider the 3.0 Forgotten Realms book the worst D&D book they own. Weirdness does cover the entire spectrum :D
Quote from: Headless;991405I've got the 3.0 forgotten realms book. Its the worst d&d book I own. You want more of that for 5th?
Some gamers are wierd man.
Why is it the worst? Most of the FR fans I know and communicate with think the FRCS is one of the best setting supplements ever.
Quote from: Reckall;991393I now understand WotC's logic re: 5th Ed. My remaining doubt, however, is why they are so "stingy" with the FR, too: there is nothing comparable - in terms of fluff - to what even the basic 3E books put out.
They're probably keeping a close eye on how evergreen SCAG's sales are (probably not very).
Quote from: Koltar;990108The Pathfinder players seem to be nicer and have better manners than the D&D 5e players do - granted thats from a store employee point of view.
Also the Pathfinder groups are much more with it and have more of a clue in general.
- Ed C.
My experience is the total opposite, with Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition attracting lots of local students and new players who want to have fun, while Pathfinder is the exclusive domain of the unwashed min/max type.
I wish I was exaggerating for effect when I say the local Dungeons & Dragons groups have to clarify for newbies that they are not the Pathfinder group that uses the same building, because that group has a bad reputation for chasing off or just being awful to newcomers.
I recently had to choose between Pathfinder and D&D 5e for an upcoming group. I went with 5e and pretty happy with it so far.
Also I noticed help is on the way for 5e. Goodman Games is turning out new adventures, a new monthly box for 5e AND they have the rights to update classic modules to 5e.
They are starting with Keep on the Borderlands and In Search of the Unknown I believe.
I wish I knew more people that wanted to play Pathfinder. So I could sell off my Pathfinder books and other materials.
Quote from: MonsterSlayer;991694They are starting with Keep on the Borderlands and In Search of the Unknown I believe.
It is always nice to see something fresh....
They've published 10 original 5e modules already.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;991795They've published 10 original 5e modules already.
Anyone done a wide survey? I have the first two, and was distinctly underwhelmed.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;991797Anyone done a wide survey? I have the first two, and was distinctly underwhelmed.
I have a buddy who started to run the Temple of Elemental Evil one, but he quit as the same premise was used repeatedly. "What!? These people I'm talking to are really cultists AGAIN!? I'm so surprised!".
Quote from: Reckall;991779It is always nice to see something fresh....
It's fresh to a lot of people not collecting social security. I personally have never played "In Search of the Unknown" and look forward to the conversion.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;991797Anyone done a wide survey? I have the first two, and was distinctly underwhelmed.
I liked Glitterdoom a lot. It was nothing special, but I didn't want something special. I wanted a dungeon with bad guys and traps that would give a 4th-level party a challenge (ended in TPK; we'll call it a success).
Quote from: fearsomepirate;991965I liked Glitterdoom a lot. It was nothing special, but I didn't want something special. I wanted a dungeon with bad guys and traps that would give a 4th-level party a challenge (ended in TPK; we'll call it a success).
My problem with Glitterdoom is that I could put together something better (for my purposes) in about 2 hours--even less if I'm particularly motivated. Sketch out a map by hand on a piece of typing paper, pick a few monsters, write some bullet points, go. In the second hour, put in something to make it sing. That's not publishable for someone else to use, of course, but it works better at my table.
Maybe I just find it so much easier to make my own stuff sing than to start with something like Glitterdoom and make that sing, that I'm jaded.
It takes me a lot longer than 2 hours to come up with something, and it's usually pretty stupid. I think I'm just not very creative, so I appreciate someone else making that sort of thing for me. Also, nothing I draw ever seems to get used...I'd rather pick up a few PDFs and never use them.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;992032It takes me a lot longer than 2 hours to come up with something, and it's usually pretty stupid.
Don't sell yourself short. As long as it is not completely ridiculous most groups will cut the DM some slack and just have fun killing monsters and stealing treasure while hanging out with buddies.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;992011My problem with Glitterdoom is that I could put together something better (for my purposes) in about 2 hours--even less if I'm particularly motivated. Sketch out a map by hand on a piece of typing paper, pick a few monsters, write some bullet points, go. In the second hour, put in something to make it sing. That's not publishable for someone else to use, of course, but it works better at my table.
Maybe I just find it so much easier to make my own stuff sing than to start with something like Glitterdoom and make that sing, that I'm jaded.
It's $7. Is your time worth $3.50 an hour?
Quote from: Mistwell;992039It's $7. Is your time worth $3.50 an hour?
It's not quite Apples to Apples. Note that for my purposes, I produce something "better", not the same thing. If I didn't have 2 hours, and didn't enjoy doing the work in 2 hours, or was only producing something about the same quality, it would be different. Plus, I had to read the damn thing to see if it was any good. That was time largely wasted, since nothing in it inspired me, and nothing in it is going to save me any particular time. Running it would be wasting valuable game time.
In contrast, "The Fey Sisters Fate" is the other one I have. If I had it to do over again, I'd probably not buy or read it, either, but I can at least see the germ of an idea there, and can see how others might get more out of it. The particular setup and personalities left me cold, but that's more of a preference thing than any comment on the quality of the adventure itself, which objectively has some good pieces mixed in with the bland. I can see me using that idea as a starting point to make my own thing, or as the source of an improvisational encounter leading to something more.
Quote from: Zalman;991778I wish I knew more people that wanted to play Pathfinder. So I could sell off my Pathfinder books and other materials.
There is a good FB group for that. I pretty much sold off all of my non-GURPS/Palladium stuff on it. No ebay fees and I get pretty good rates.
I'm not exaggerating when I say something like Glitterdoom would take me a couple days, possibly a week to do. Is the hook terribly amazing? No. There's some spooky shit in a mine, go check it out. surprise there's undead and monsters. But there are some unique monsters, a decent coherence to the overall design, at least one trap that breaks the standard d20 mold of "roll a d20 or take a little damage that mildly inconveniences you" and goes back to the old "lol ur dead" model, and a final boss room that will murder the stupid.
It's little details like the petrified player crying gold for weeks that I never think of. That room now has tons of gold in it should my players ever think to go back.
Anyway, the module was extremely successful at my table. In two hours, the only idea I ever seem to have is "this room should have more ghouls."
Quote from: Headless;991405I've got the 3.0 forgotten realms book. Its the worst d&d book I own. You want more of that for 5th?
Some gamers are wierd man.
I think the FR 3.0 book was quite good, but of course I ignored most of the system-stuff for it. The setting material was the best since the original boxed set.