I bought the P2 book on a whim because it was on sale on Amazon and had a coupon too and I figure I could mine something out of it. After reading through it, P2 it is NOT a SJW fest like 5e, they skim the pandering cleverly by adding goblin as a player race in the core book and orcs, cat people and tengu in the Advanced Player Guide. So I will give them this, so far they have stifled those who would cry unfair by offering goblins, orcs and other species as player options.

I am still not a convert,  but at this point if I was told I could only play either P2 or 5E instead of the usual fare i would go for P2. Until they buckle.

5e is everybody's second favorite edition by mostly being vaporware. And then people see what they like in the clouds. Its the edition I respect the least, even if I would play it over some other things.
As for PF 2e. It has many good ideas. Many more bad ones. I'd say primarily a love of fidgetiness and wordiness. PF2e at its worst, is the concentrated worst aspects of 1e. Which just shows arrogance on their side.

Competition with D&D has always been a massive challenge due to cultural importance and higher marketing. I do think they could have leveraged it and could have come out on top if 2e was a better product and came out before 5e.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 08, 2020, 11:34:52 AM
5e is everybody's second favorite edition...

Yeah - I've heard that argument before. It's a system which no one finds too objectionable, and in a social game that's a big bonus as between that and the name recognition, it's much easier to put a table together than more niche choices. And while 5e isn't close to my favorite system (too much "GM may I" and character choices are a bit same-y for my taste) I'd certainly join a table if I was invited and had an afternoon free.

Quote from: bat on December 08, 2020, 11:15:02 AM
I bought the P2 book on a whim because it was on sale on Amazon and had a coupon too and I figure I could mine something out of it. After reading through it, P2 it is NOT a SJW fest like 5e, they skim the pandering cleverly by adding goblin as a player race in the core book and orcs, cat people and tengu in the Advanced Player Guide. So I will give them this, so far they have stifled those who would cry unfair by offering goblins, orcs and other species as player options.

I am still not a convert,  but at this point if I was told I could only play either P2 or 5E instead of the usual fare i would go for P2. Until they buckle.

Goblins as a PC race was utterly bizarre, as Paizo had refluffed goblins into barely-sentient creatures who were more like tool-using pirahna than anything else. I would've added kobolds as an option instead.

I agree. Kobolds are a player race in the Advanced Player Guide  and done well. I will probably integrate them into a Black Hack game.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 08, 2020, 10:57:42 AM
All those changes and still less than 1/3 of the players made the switch. Clearly Paizo is listening to the wrong segment of their player base (if the SJWs are actually playing the game which is doubtful).

Where did you get that figure? Just curious is all.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 08, 2020, 10:57:42 AM
People said that Paizo was in a lose/lose situation but it seems like choice was lose or lose a while lot more.

Their is no pleasing Grognards especially D&D they want nothing to change yet want everyone else to contiually buy rehashed material. I may not like what they did with PF 2E in some respects. Yet they needed to do something to counter 5E stealing away fans and market share. A rehash of a rehash of 3.5 with no to little changes was not the way to go imo. Paizo business model or part of it was based perhaps stupidly on Wotc never making a better product. Or one that actually address the flaws of the creaky 3.5 engine. When Wotc did with 5E they were in a Catch 22 situation.

Quote from: Shasarak on December 07, 2020, 10:12:56 PM

My verdict is a slow train wreck with the proviso that WotC is also going down and it is just a matter of who is going to self destruct first.

Pros:

Paizo has a better more experienced management team.

WotC has Magic money propping them up.

The next D&D edition may very well go down to wokeness.

But having Hasbro money around to forever prop them up when they pull another 4e is HUGE.

If marvel and DC comics were not part of their respective megacorps, they would have filed for bankruptcy due to wokeness years back.

Megacorp money is currently subsidizing the wokeness of woke subsidiaries in amounts that would make your eyes water.

This kind of permanent corporate subsidy on tap from Hasbro to WOTC will mean that some form of "Official" D&D will be around forever.

Quote from: theOutlander on December 08, 2020, 08:41:59 AM
Is this why they're releasing PF1 rules and APs for Savage Worlds - to forfeit the arms race and go with licensing their old stuff?

No, it's to try and monetize their back catalogue without going the 5e route.

They can't re-print for PF2 - because their base is expecting new product.

Translating past AP for 5e would be the biggest money maker they could do. But that would be signaling to their fanbase that they are  capitulating to the 5e juggernaut. And at this point that would only hasten their downfall.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 08, 2020, 10:57:42 AM
All those changes and still less than 1/3 of the players made the switch. Clearly Paizo is listening to the wrong segment of their player base (if the SJWs are actually playing the game which is doubtful).

People said that Paizo was in a lose/lose situation but it seems like the choice was lose or lose a while lot more.

In a way yes.

Baizio's rise was due to circumstances that will not exist again.

They should have not done a PF2, and scaled back to 5e support. Starfinder should have been a 5e "game".

Maybe they should have done a Pathfinder 5e! - a 100% backward compatible Advanced D&D5e if you will. (like AiME)

But I think they feel that they are pot-committed to having their own system at this point. And we'll see where that gets them.

I just don't think PF2  offers a different enough play experience to give it legs as a permanent #2 to 5e.

I believe that PF2 is essentially a bust. And Baizuo will eventually have to scale back and downsize at some point.

Probably when the 5e fad starts to fade. So it'll be a few years before we see Baizuo publicly acknowledging reality.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 08, 2020, 01:33:17 PM
...
Goblins as a PC race was utterly bizarre, as Paizo had refluffed goblins into barely-sentient creatures who were more like tool-using pirahna than anything else. I would've added kobolds as an option instead.

Hold on... that's awesome!  They nerfed that to make them a PC race!?

So dumb. Orcs and Goblins are for the killing.

We switched from PF1 to PF2 at the start of this year with my friends and family group.   It has the right amount of crunch for those that want it and the 3 action combat system makes the combat flow quite nicely.   They can put all the SJW stuff in their setting that they want since I don't use Paizo's hodgepodge world setting or adventures.   I have my very own setting that my group have been in for years....we change the game engine from time to time.  At first it was Ad&d 2E then years later switched to PF1 now its PF2.   

Over all its not a bad system.   I like a lot of it and change the few things I don't like, just like every game system I have ever GM'd. 

At the end of the day, despite what others say, I'm having fun using the PF2 system.  Right now Paizo could disappear off the face of the earth.   I have what I need to keep playing PF2.   I would of course come up with my own classes, spells, feats, magic items, races, etc....which I already have because that's what PermaGM's do

Quote from: sureshot on December 08, 2020, 06:08:26 PM
...
Their is no pleasing Grognards especially D&D they want nothing to change yet want everyone else to contiually buy rehashed material. I may not like what they did with PF 2E in some respects. Yet they needed to do something to counter 5E stealing away fans and market share. A rehash of a rehash of 3.5 with no to little changes was not the way to go imo. Paizo business model or part of it was based perhaps stupidly on Wotc never making a better product. Or one that actually address the flaws of the creaky 3.5 engine. When Wotc did with 5E they were in a Catch 22 situation.

Yes.

D&D grognards like their D&D the way they like it, and they don't want you to touch anything. They do not want a new edition, but if you were to make a new edition they have an endless list of things to improve. So that you can make a new D&D just like the old D&D, without changing anything, but just make it better.

D&D grognardia put the smack down on 4e. And 5e was a combination of lukewarm lightning in a bottle, and lucky pop culture timing.

What interests me is the fact that 5e has had INSANE success...

Will enough of the "new D&D fans" that 5e has brought in stay around for a 6th edition?

And are there enough of them to drown out / replace the old grognard guard, if they like the direction 6e goes and the 1-3e grognards do not?

I think the WOTC 4e developers were subconsciously was counting on that effect to a large degree with 4e (because 3e did so well...).

Maybe due to 5e's insane success it may play out this time...

Quote from: Krugus on December 08, 2020, 07:33:35 PM
Over all its not a bad system.   I like a lot of it and change the few things I don't like, just like every game system I have ever GM'd. 

At the end of the day, despite what others say, I'm having fun using the PF2 system.  Right now Paizo could disappear off the face of the earth.   I have what I need to keep playing PF2.   I would of course come up with my own classes, spells, feats, magic items, races, etc....which I already have because that's what PermaGM's do

The system is very robust.

My main problem is the way the rule book is presented, they really need a good editor to go through and tidy it up more.  Honestly I would cut the Golarion lore sections and use the extra pages for padding the rules so that you do not have to page back and forth through the book just to find all of the key word explanations that are randomly sprinkled through the tome.

Quote from: Shasarak on December 08, 2020, 08:36:59 PM

The system is very robust.

My main problem is the way the rule book is presented, they really need a good editor to go through and tidy it up more.  Honestly I would cut the Golarion lore sections and use the extra pages for padding the rules so that you do not have to page back and forth through the book just to find all of the key word explanations that are randomly sprinkled through the tome.

Agreed!

They have an entire line of books for their hodgepodge setting.  There was no need for it to be in the CRB to be honest.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 08, 2020, 07:44:10 PMWill enough of the "new D&D fans" that 5e has brought in stay around for a 6th edition?

And are there enough of them to drown out / replace the old grognard guard, if they like the direction 6e goes and the 1-3e grognards do not?

I suspect so, yes. Much like Games Workshop is to tabletop wargaming, for the majority of people DnD IS the RPG hobby and whilst I don't want to sound like somebody griping about the young'uns, I don't feel like a 4e situation could ever really occur again short of 6e being printed on pages glued together by faeces. They will buy 6e because that's simply what D&D 'is' now, their favourite social media personalities/e-celebs tell them to buy it, so they do. When official support for 5e drops and the banners on D&DBeyond swap over to tell them it's for 6e now bucko, they'll make shift because... well that's just what you do, why would you play old editions? This is the newest one so it's clearly the best!

Quote from: Jaeger on December 08, 2020, 07:23:10 PMBut I think they feel that they are pot-committed to having their own system at this point. And we'll see where that gets them.

I seems that the era of constantly making new editions that are similar but incompatible is over. Hopefully, WotC is watching this play out and rethinking any 6e plans they might already have. Older versions of games are more available now than ever before so there's much less need to stick with current editions.

IMO Paizo should kept supporting 1e while also making a new game with the same setting that does something Pathfinder can't do. Such as an "epic" level game with combat rules so streamlined that PCs can fight dozens of bad guys at a time. Something that's not compatible yet is convertable.

Welp. I'm dissapointed in those numbers just because I think diversity (-shudder-, thanks to the numbnuts who ruined that word) is good for the hobby. D&D being the most popular is to be expected. D&D to dominate and other games to be a tiny percentage next to it is disheartening.

The relative unpopularity of these edge-games appeals to my inner hipster. Doesn't the prospect of lording one's eclectic taste over the unwashed 5e masses sound like an enjoyable prospect?

The lack of players is disheartening though, to be sure.