Palladium is notorious for being vague on how combat rounds are meant to play out. Or, even how you're meant to add up your combat bonuses.
How do you run your game?
The two big ones for us:
1. A single dodge is good against any and all attacks directed at you until we come back around to you in the initiative order.
2. You can dodge gunfire. It's an opposed roll system. Roll 5 or more to hit somebody, and higher than their dodge if they opt to do so (and they always do).
We later added a house rule that dodging vs gunfire needs to be somebody who is super agile/flying, or you have cover to duck. However, we had stopped playing Palladium games by then, so it's untested. It sounds like a good house rule.
Differently every time depending on the time of day, the position of the moon and stars, whether or not my pierogis were too soggy, etc just like every Palladium writer and Kevin Siembieda himself at his open houses. :)
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 10, 2025, 08:49:25 AMPalladium is notorious for being vague on how combat rounds are meant to play out. Or, even how you're meant to add up your combat bonuses.
How do you run your game?
The two big ones for us:
1. A single dodge is good against any and all attacks directed at you until we come back around to you in the initiative order.
2. You can dodge gunfire. It's an opposed roll system. Roll 5 or more to hit somebody, and higher than their dodge if they opt to do so (and they always do).
We later added a house rule that dodging vs gunfire needs to be somebody who is super agile/flying, or you have cover to duck. However, we had stopped playing Palladium games by then, so it's untested. It sounds like a good house rule.
I actually really like your rule #1 and we always (at least in Robotech and Rifts) let people dodge ranged fire (whether bullets or energy). My old long time group was unfortunately quite gonzo where half the players powergamed though so not allowing that would basically kill everyone who didn't have a ridiculous character in one shot.
Even though I do like dogging on Robotech and Palladium in general, we did have awful amount of fun with Robotech when me and my friends were much younger and before we found Mekton. Speaking of damage. Woo. It was awesome when Southern Cross sourcebook added laser pistols that did 1d6 MDC. Yes, that's right hand held pistols doing mega damage. Oh, this isn't that awesome, but it was before RIFTS was a thing. Nothing like have a western style shootout where one shot is pretty much going to vaporize the other person.
Kevin S. Has been on podcasts recently, mainly the GlitterBoi (that's not miss-spelled), and the one I watch, The Legion of Myth.
Kevin actually said that his rules are loosely-goossey deliberately. He WANTS it that way because he doesn't feel there is a correct way to handle any and all situations.
It's a feature, not a bug.
Also, he feels this gives GM's some agency to run every encounter differently, if they so choose.
It's one of the reasons his games are infuriating. They just don't make sense sometimes. Example; why does Boxing make you shoot your gun of your army tank faster than a non-boxer? Boxing gives that character another action/attack per round.
If you ask Kevin, then he'll probably ask a counter question, "Well, how did you and your GM handle it?" Whatever you reply with is what he says you should do.
There is a meme about fans of Kevin run up to him at conventions and hug him for his great games, then threaten to punch him for his poorly written rules.
I'm less frustrated these days as I now know that he had a logic to it. It's a weird, fucked up sort of logic that irritates me as a GM to not "know" if I'm playing it right, but muddle thru as best I can. But, it doesn't hurt as much now that I know it's not me.
Also, to hell with the Boxing skill as written. New house rule: It gives an extra attack only in unarmed melee combat when using fists and feet. Use a sword, gun, crossbow, blowgun, or main guns of your battleship, no extra attack.
When I played Palladium FRP as a kid, I think we just ran it pretty much BECMI-style because I really didn't know any differently. Looking at the 1st edition rules, it is straightforward enough with how dodges and parries work that I don't think it'd be a big deal to do properly (and in fact I ran a PFRP game last year for a couple sessions, went fine). When I got Robotech, TMNT, and Ninjas and Superspies, same thing, it worked "good enough".
Then came Rifts...MDC REALLY fucked up the system beyond what was in Robotech specifically because it's easy enough to ignore megadamage when it's ONLY robots in that combat, but throw in everything else with no actual AC system...yeah. That said, when I only owned the main book and the first few sourcebooks, it worked fine as much as I can remember. Even using the Mechanoids. It was probably around Mercenaries I started seeing how dumb things were getting with a literal arms race of PC powers and bloat. No longer could an actual character like my headhunter or assassin be viable when everyone else had MDC PCs. Can't get into a bar fight in a rando frontier town because the dude punching you might have supernatural strength and turn you into paste with one punch. Further, the whole "you can't dodge more than X missiles" rule in some of the later books was ignored because it meant everyone would just fire that many missiles, no less, which is stupid. You can dodge 9 missiles, no problem, but 10 (or whatever it was)? Yeah, those ALL hit you!
So to actually answer the question, I think handwaving a lot of the stuff that makes no sense is the best approach, and also just assume the person who boxes has such great hand-eye coordination that their aim with guns is really, really, good and they can shoot more because they're not flinching from the recoil.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 10, 2025, 08:49:25 AMPalladium is notorious for being vague on how combat rounds are meant to play out. Or, even how you're meant to add up your combat bonuses.
How do you run your game?
The two big ones for us:
1. A single dodge is good against any and all attacks directed at you until we come back around to you in the initiative order.
Same.
Quote2. You can dodge gunfire. It's an opposed roll system. Roll 5 or more to hit somebody, and higher than their dodge if they opt to do so (and they always do).
Same.
QuoteWe later added a house rule that dodging vs gunfire needs to be somebody who is super agile/flying, or you have cover to duck. However, we had stopped playing Palladium games by then, so it's untested. It sounds like a good house rule.
I'm good with being able to dodge gunfire just as a part of the system without needing to be super agile or whatnot. A moving target is harder to hit, and it's a heroic style game.
I also used a house rule that modified 20 or higher to hit (that actually hit) deals double damage, and a natural 20 deals 3x damage. I was never happy with how most damage in Rifts was stingy and most MDC values were generous bordering on silly.
I also used the MDC = x10 SDC instead of x100. I think the 100 value fits Robotech, but not Rifts.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 10, 2025, 10:53:26 AMKevin S. Has been on podcasts recently, mainly the GlitterBoi (that's not miss-spelled), and the one I watch, The Legion of Myth.
Kevin actually said that his rules are loosely-goossey deliberately. He WANTS it that way because he doesn't feel there is a correct way to handle any and all situations.
It's a feature, not a bug.
Also, he feels this gives GM's some agency to run every encounter differently, if they so choose.
It's one of the reasons his games are infuriating. They just don't make sense sometimes. Example; why does Boxing make you shoot your gun of your army tank faster than a non-boxer? Boxing gives that character another action/attack per round.
Yea. I wish I'd known this back in the day. And it's a crime against RPGs that Siembieda doesn't mention this in his books. We rely on the rules to give our games structure, and when that structure is rickety, the game runs poorly. Siembieda either needs to run his own games RAW and then fix those rules, or write up his loosey-goosey system into a set of rules and publish that instead.
Or he can keep ignoring the problem which is most likely.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 10, 2025, 04:39:40 PMYea. I wish I'd known this back in the day. And it's a crime against RPGs that Siembieda doesn't mention this in his books. We rely on the rules to give our games structure, and when that structure is rickety, the game runs poorly. Siembieda either needs to run his own games RAW and then fix those rules, or write up his loosey-goosey system into a set of rules and publish that instead.
Or he can keep ignoring the problem which is most likely.
By all accounts, KS is literally one of the best GMs ever and he admits he pretty much just handles every game by fiat, the rules are for the PLAYERS to use to put their characters in context. I mean, he and Erick Wujcik collaborated quite frequently(EDIT: I mean he cofounded Palladium or am I mistaken?) and EW made Amber so...I am certain KS is cut from the same cloth. While Palladium games are D&Dish in nature, the games are run by a referee who rolls dice for visuals, looks at the situation, and determines the most reasonable outcome. I mean, I'm not against BtB by any means, and have run some "out in the open" games where I rolled everything in front of the players, but sometimes the dice lie.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 10, 2025, 10:53:26 AMKevin S. Has been on podcasts recently, mainly the GlitterBoi (that's not miss-spelled), and the one I watch, The Legion of Myth.
Kevin actually said that his rules are loosely-goossey deliberately. He WANTS it that way because he doesn't feel there is a correct way to handle any and all situations.
It's a feature, not a bug.
Also, he feels this gives GM's some agency to run every encounter differently, if they so choose.
...
It's not a feature, it's BAD game design.
Kevin is literally offloading to the GM what the game designer should have sorted from day 1.
The advocates for this nonsense like Legion of Myth do themselves no favors by saying that it's not palladiums fault that some GM's are too stupid to properly curate their games.
Palladium games entire existence has been one of selling the sizzle, but shorting you on the steak.
Unfortunately the state of game design is generally bad enough that he has and will continue to get away with it as he always seems to find some fanboy to back up his craptastic game design.
Sorry, but no. Homebrew should not be the default option just to run your game.
He has some decent ideas, but someone really needs to go through and make a proper system out of them.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 10, 2025, 10:53:26 AMIt's one of the reasons his games are infuriating. They just don't make sense sometimes. Example; why does Boxing make you shoot your gun of your army tank faster than a non-boxer? Boxing gives that character another action/attack per round.
This one is easy actually.
Training improves reflexes which improves attacks around.
it really does not need to be any more complex than that.
Or to put it another way... Boxing/Martial arts = better mecha pilot. (About 50% of all mecha anime.)
Quote from: Omega on January 11, 2025, 03:25:07 AMQuote from: weirdguy564 on January 10, 2025, 10:53:26 AMIt's one of the reasons his games are infuriating. They just don't make sense sometimes. Example; why does Boxing make you shoot your gun of your army tank faster than a non-boxer? Boxing gives that character another action/attack per round.
This one is easy actually.
Training improves reflexes which improves attacks around.
it really does not need to be any more complex than that.
Or to put it another way... Boxing/Martial arts = better mecha pilot. (About 50% of all mecha anime.)
IIRC boxing is one of the few, maybe the only skill that gives a character an extra attack, outside the Hand to Hand X skills.
So why does boxing specifically give a bonus attack and other more applicable skills don't? For example, weapon proficiencies do not give an extra attack.
The joke in our group was every character takes boxing just for that bonus attack. Not because they want to know how to box.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 10, 2025, 10:53:26 AMIt's one of the reasons his games are infuriating. They just don't make sense sometimes. Example; why does Boxing make you shoot your gun of your army tank faster than a non-boxer? Boxing gives that character another action/attack per round.
Clearly mastering the speed bag allows you to punch the fire button faster. DUH! :) A bigger question is why a whale character (a literal whale race character with no arms.. just flippers) can take the fly fishing skill. Or running. :)
Yeah, Palladium pretending that players outright ignoring or changing their badly written and poorly thought out mish mash of rules ever needed their permission or that it's some sort of positive feature is pretty ridiculous. That said, at least now newer players have a coherent ruleset with Savage Rifts so as to play in the setting without the 35 years of rules jank. I'm not particularly a fan of SW personally as the endless exploding dice aren't my thing but at least there was some thought put into the system 20+ years ago when they developed it and it's been tweaked competently since.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 10, 2025, 10:53:26 AMKevin actually said that his rules are loosely-goossey deliberately. He WANTS it that way because he doesn't feel there is a correct way to handle any and all situations.
It's a feature, not a bug.
No, that's an excuse, not a rationale.
The purpose of rules is to provide a framework of examples of how the game is supposed to play, and to provide a level of consistency that allows players to understand the conceits of the setting and how to interact with them. No one expects rules to encompass every situation. They do expect rules to
model how to handle unexpected situations. Which means that vague, confusing, and contradictory rules are
objectively not helpful, and therefore bad.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 10, 2025, 10:53:26 AMAlso, he feels this gives GM's some agency to run every encounter differently, if they so choose.
Garbage. GMs have always had the agency to run things differently. Houserules are not a modern invention. This is also a dodge.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 10, 2025, 10:53:26 AMIf you ask Kevin, then he'll probably ask a counter question, "Well, how did you and your GM handle it?" Whatever you reply with is what he says you should do.
While I can appreciate the mock-Zen Buddhism of the reply, it is equally dumb. Certain houserules (which is really what we are describing) work with a system, and some work against it. Unless you are of the opinion that system doesn't matter to gameplay (which I will vehemently disagree with), then some houserules or decisions will be less optimal/enjoyable/workable than others. It's one thing to say "Play how you want to." It's another to say, "My rules are so vague and contradictory that you have to decide how even the simple things will work."
I have always assumed that the Palladium system's failings were accidental, and therefore cut KS some slack for them (no one is perfect). Now he's saying they are intentional. It makes me far less tolerant of them...
Houserules despite what the PB hardcore faithful try and push as good design, is objectively bad design.
It's a bad feature and places bad rpg design from the author, squarely on the GM and players shoulders.
That lazy and quite frankly shitty game design that was used for the 1980s just has no place in 2025.
Same thing with no index and chapters in their books. And before anyone says gaming was expensive to a certain degree.
Then the same fateful wonder why they can't find players or GMs to run the game.
Not to mention both players and GMs are some of the most unreliable, flaky , irresponsible players:GMs in all of gaming existence. Sorry but if I as a player or GM constantly need to push and prod to run/play the game, when your supposed to show interest makes it even worse.
Expect Rifts or PB games will survive or better or worse with Savage Versions.
At least Pinnacle advertises, perhaps too much with new products on their own. PB expects free word of mouth advertising from their fans because it's too " expensive ".
Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 11, 2025, 05:46:09 AMQuote from: Omega on January 11, 2025, 03:25:07 AMQuote from: weirdguy564 on January 10, 2025, 10:53:26 AMIt's one of the reasons his games are infuriating. They just don't make sense sometimes. Example; why does Boxing make you shoot your gun of your army tank faster than a non-boxer? Boxing gives that character another action/attack per round.
This one is easy actually.
Training improves reflexes which improves attacks around.
it really does not need to be any more complex than that.
Or to put it another way... Boxing/Martial arts = better mecha pilot. (About 50% of all mecha anime.)
IIRC boxing is one of the few, maybe the only skill that gives a character an extra attack, outside the Hand to Hand X skills.
So why does boxing specifically give a bonus attack and other more applicable skills don't? For example, weapon proficiencies do not give an extra attack.
The joke in our group was every character takes boxing just for that bonus attack. Not because they want to know how to box.
That's why we nerfed it. It only helps in unarmed fist fights. Using a sword, gun, or vehicle will negate it.
One additional rule that's come up was how to handle attacks that use multiple attack actions to use. A power punch or a long gun burst.
They way we did it was skipping over you on the next time we run through the initiative order.
However, combined with a dodge, it can be a bit hard to keep who has done what and such.
An easier way to handle it is to simply say that a multi-attack action uses up your current action, and your last action. In other words, just act as if your character has one less action than they normally would each time a multiple attack action is used.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 11, 2025, 01:25:12 PMOne additional rule that's come up was how to handle attacks that use multiple attack actions to use. A power punch or a long gun burst.
They way we did it was skipping over you on the next time we run through the initiative order.
However, combined with a dodge, it can be a bit hard to keep who has done what and such.
An easier way to handle it is to simply say that a multi-attack action uses up your current action, and your last action. In other words, just act as if your character has one less action than they normally would each time a multiple attack action is used.
The # of HTH attacks is one of the clunkiest parts of the system. I think your last example is the easiest way to do it. Someone (Usually the Juicer ;) ) is gonna get to take actions when everyone else is out. At least we can let them do some stuff without worrying about getting skipped over .
I did entertain the idea of phasing actions, like in how Champions used to do it. But I think that would make a clunky system even clunkier.
One house rule I've thought is reducing # of attacks bloat by removing the two you get for "free".
Just whatever from HTH, and unskilled characters/NPCs have at least 1 attack at minimum.
Oh, and no stacking of attacks from robot/Pa combat skills. That shit gets nuts fast.
The two attacks you get for free used to be only found in Heroes Unlimited. They were super heroes, so that was one way to make them stand out.
But, you're right. As it is now everyone gets two actions per round as a starting base, and combat training and boxing add to it.
Even clunkier, I think Chaos Earth (Rifts prequel) has untrained people with 3 attack actions per round. Sort of. You get 1 attack and 2 defensive actions per round, and parrying is not a free action.
Yeah. Palladium cannot nail down their rules. Every game that comes out tweaks them.
It's high time for a third edition to the rules. A core, base rulebook that all other games are then based off of.
That's sort of why I'm posting this thread. I'm hunting for good house rules to see what a better Palladdium 3rd edition could look like.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 11, 2025, 06:51:02 PMThat's sort of why I'm posting this thread. I'm hunting for good house rules to see what a better Palladdium 3rd edition could look like.
Not to discourage you, but whenever I go down that road, I eventually come to the conclusion that I could save the time and energy and just use another system.
But I'll post my doc with all my collected Rifts houserules when I get home. Some of them are not play tested. Some "in hindsight" stuff.
One house rule we never made, but ought to have been in there from the start, are range modifiers for shooting.
I know that they later (2nd edition Rifts I think) had under 60 feet shooting uses the standard of 1-4 is a miss, and 5-20 is a hit. But, when shooting over 60 feet, it's 1-8 is a miss and 9-20 is a hit.
First, nice try, but let's be more general than that. Just say it's -3 to hit at medium range, and -6 for long range shooting. FYI, the same penalties for when you're partially impaired, or severely impaired. Those penalties are found in various debilitating spells like Cloud of Smoke, or Invisible. Just unify them.
Rifts and the idea of a megaversal system was the real culprit here. Until then all the games had rules specifically designed for them. Fantasy had rules that worked for Fantasy, N&S looked similar but the HtH rules were (and still are) very different, HU was for super heroes, and MDC was in Robotech for mecha combat.
Then along came Rifts.
However, MD is a very scary and valid reason for why people would embrace something like the Coalition.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 10, 2025, 10:53:26 AMKevin actually said that his rules are loosely-goossey deliberately. He WANTS it that way because he doesn't feel there is a correct way to handle any and all situations.
It's a feature, not a bug.
That's pure cope. GMs will always change the game fit their and their groups' needs, and the idea that they need permission to do so is asinine, much less the idea that a game's rules being unclear is the same as them being modular when it's clearly the opposite. How is a GM supposed to know how changing a rule is going to effect the game if he can't discern what the rule was supposed to be in the first place, let alone what the rule was meant to evoke.
I was excited about Palladium when I found out about the TMNT game being rereleased, and bought Ninjas and Superspies in preparation. Forget the fact that N&S is in fact a mere rules expansion with pretentions of being a full game (if the actual rules for resolving a skill check are in that book I still have not found them) and the fact that it's frankly unclear what game it is therefore and expansion of. The martial arts rules consisting primarily of unlocking a wine menu of particularized punches and kicks with esoterically varied effects. And this is layered on top of the wobbly base Palladium combat system. After several days of reading and rereading and building character precons and rereading I gave up any hope of actually playing a Palladium game. I know plenty of people have, and I salute their dedication to firstly the system and secondly to building their own system in flight.
Ninjas and Superspies is the last game I would want as somebody's first Palladium game. It is the most complex game they make.
Palladium Fantasy 1st edition is where you should start. The rules are the easiest to understand and use.
Palladium Fantasy 1st Ed (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/60661/the-palladium-fantasy-role-playing-game-revised-edition-1st-edition-rules?src=hottest_filtered)