Somethings I never thought Palladium Books would do that they now do.
1) Put books together using digital software.
2) Make PDFs of their books available for purchase.
3) Have VTT support. (Just announced in the latest update that they have signed a deal with Fantasy Grounds to bring Rifts, Palladium Fantasy, and others to that program.)
Any guesses on how Siembeida will mess this up? ;D
Foundry really needs to get monetization in order.
It's amazing that someone who is such a massive Luddite also wrote some of the most technology-based RPGs ever. Maybe there's a lesson in there...
Glad to see them on Fantasy Grounds. Though I saying they embrace new technology is a stretch. It took them forever to release books in PDF and had to be shamed to into making a Facebook page. I was hoping for a new edition or barring that modernized and streamlined edition of their current rules. The big release for Rifts anniversary is hardcover version of the Rifts Main Book
Quote from: Brad on March 20, 2021, 06:52:49 PM
It's amazing that someone who is such a massive Luddite also wrote some of the most technology-based RPGs ever. Maybe there's a lesson in there...
Ive commented on this part before in an older thread.
What it may really be is very simple. Familliarity with a certain system and finding newer ones either hard to get into, or lacking in some way.
Example. I still use MS paint for some editing simply because it gets the job done without having to click 6 different sub tabs just to move something around. And the older MS paint was actually a bit more functional for my sprite projects way back as it supported certain older file types where the last version of MS paint does not, and also lacks some other functionality. Newer is not allways better.
That said I use other editing progs for things that do not require finesse. Such as base cleanup and more. I use GIMP at a friends suggestion and while it works. It lacks both fone control and ease of use. Just to get simple things done can take several steps.
Odds are Kev has some system or even just an editing method that hes used to and can do this stuff relatively smoothly via. And odds are also that hed use something else if he ever found something that works better without hassle.
Quote from: Omega on March 21, 2021, 04:54:34 AM
Odds are Kev has some system or even just an editing method that hes used to and can do this stuff relatively smoothly via. And odds are also that hed use something else if he ever found something that works better without hassle.
(If my brain isn't completely failing me this morning)
That was the story with how they did the layout of their books. They had done them all by hand, cutting the sections up and pasting them in place to create each page. When they were first introduced to computer software they tried it and gave it a pass because it was quicker by hand, simply because they were so use to doing it that way and didn't really know how best to use the software. That lets be honest when the software first came out it was rather slow and crude. It wasn't until years later that they were convinced to give it another go (I think because of the printer they use).
I've had this mental image of Siembieda furiously working away at an old, hand crank mimeograph machine trying to make some deadline or other.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 21, 2021, 08:21:22 AM
I've had this mental image of Siembieda furiously working away at an old, hand crank mimeograph machine trying to make some deadline or other.
Last time I was in his office, c. 2008c he had a desktop PC of some model at his desk, so not THAT primitive.
The main thing that always struck me about his office was the walls of reference books. Myths and legends from all over the world, books on science, history, philosophy... you name it. It was like Wikipedia in printed form (only not subject to political editing at any time).
The impression I've always had of him is that it's not that he disdains the new, rather, that he appreciates the value of older things.
The Hobby could use more Kevins and less WOTC/Paizos.
Quote from: JeffB on March 21, 2021, 09:47:45 AM
The Hobby could use more Kevins and less WOTC/Paizos.
I agree with this. For all his faults, KS seems to really want nothing more than to share his love of gaming with everyone. Dude is an RPG fanboy through and through.
Quote from: Brad on March 20, 2021, 06:52:49 PM
It's amazing that someone who is such a massive Luddite also wrote some of the most technology-based RPGs ever. Maybe there's a lesson in there...
Once you reach a certain level of understanding of technology, Ludditism becomes more and more attractive. Ask anyone who works in IT infrastructure or cybersecurity. And ignore the software devs. They don't understand the tech; they cargo-cult.
Quote from: JeffB on March 21, 2021, 09:47:45 AM
The Hobby could use more Kevins and less WOTC/Paizos.
While I agree less of Wotc/Paizo definetly not more Kevins.
Kevin has an:
-ability to stick to release schedules even after 30 + years in the business.
-refuses to admit that Mechanoids Space and the missing BTS 2 boojs are vaporware or close to it. Even going so far as claiming that just because they are more than 20+ years late they are "still being worked on". EXcuse me while not one but an entire squardon of flying pigs passes by my window.
-Ignores books the fans want and release something that only he, the freelancer and a few fans want like Rifts Antarctica that imo no one was really interested in.
-Seem barely able to release any new material it took forever for the Rifts Bestiaries to be released and much of those books was reprint. For Rifts 30 year anniversary we get a bunch of hardcover reprints of existing material.
more guys like Kevin very hard pass
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 19, 2021, 11:45:53 AM
Any guesses on how Siembeida will mess this up? ;D
All of it. All the ways. All of them. Every way possible.
And then he'll blame, in no specific order:
- Adobe
- Fantasy Grounds
- Microsoft (or Apple; he gives off that "We only use Powermacs running OS 9.x" vibe)
- Everyone else on the internet
- some stupid bastard who tied himself to the mast of the SS Palladium in an attempt to gain experience and work history in RPGs
- Usenet groups
- You
- Me
...but what he absolutely, positively
will not do is take any blame himself.
Quote from: thedungeondelver on March 21, 2021, 09:11:27 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 19, 2021, 11:45:53 AM
Any guesses on how Siembeida will mess this up? ;D
All of it. All the ways. All of them. Every way possible.
His relationship with the Savage Worlds group has worked so far, and he has final say on all of their Rifts-related products.
Quote from: RandyB on March 21, 2021, 03:33:33 PM
Quote from: Brad on March 20, 2021, 06:52:49 PM
It's amazing that someone who is such a massive Luddite also wrote some of the most technology-based RPGs ever. Maybe there's a lesson in there...
Once you reach a certain level of understanding of technology, Ludditism becomes more and more attractive. Ask anyone who works in IT infrastructure or cybersecurity. And ignore the software devs. They don't understand the tech; they cargo-cult.
As someone with a masters in computer engineering whose day job title is CTO, working on my PhD in CS, I can do nothing other than nod in amusement.
Quote from: thedungeondelver on March 21, 2021, 09:11:27 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 19, 2021, 11:45:53 AM
Any guesses on how Siembeida will mess this up? ;D
All of it. All the ways. All of them. Every way possible.
And then he'll blame, in no specific order:
- Adobe
- Fantasy Grounds
- Microsoft (or Apple; he gives off that "We only use Powermacs running OS 9.x" vibe)
- Everyone else on the internet
- some stupid bastard who tied himself to the mast of the SS Palladium in an attempt to gain experience and work history in RPGs
- Usenet groups
- You
- Me
...but what he absolutely, positively will not do is take any blame himself.
Look no further than the $1.4 million that was squandered and the web of lies and blame Unca Kevvy laid out for years with the Robotech Kickstarter.
Quote from: JeffB on March 21, 2021, 09:47:45 AM
The Hobby could use more Kevins and less WOTC/Paizos.
Except what has Kevin done lately?
Maybe a Kevin from 30 years ago.
Quote from: sureshot on March 21, 2021, 08:10:01 PM
Quote from: JeffB on March 21, 2021, 09:47:45 AM
The Hobby could use more Kevins and less WOTC/Paizos.
-Ignores books the fans want and release something that only he, the freelancer and a few fans want like Rifts Antarctica that imo no one was really interested in.
Wait? When did they release Rifts Antarctica? I still have the manuscript for Rifts Arctic Circle that the designer just said screw this, quit game design totally and handed me the whole thing to illustrate. Been poking at it for years now as time allows.
This is the real problem with Kev and its a known recurring one. He has this weird Jeckyl/Hyde thing with freelancers and even employees where hes your bestest friend ever... till hes not. I still have saved a long conversation with Coffin and a few others who had lots to say on the ups and downs of working with Kev.
My mistake on pre-order:
https://palladium-store.com/1001/product/898-Rifts-World-Book-Antarctica.html
Given how late Mechanoids Space and the two BTS2 books are late. Yet Antarctica is more of priority.
We are finally getting Lazlo yet they even messed that up.
Quote from: sureshot on March 22, 2021, 09:06:06 AM
My mistake on pre-order:
https://palladium-store.com/1001/product/898-Rifts-World-Book-Antarctica.html
Given how late Mechanoids Space and the two BTS2 books are late. Yet Antarctica is more of priority.
We are finally getting Lazlo yet they even messed that up.
Never pre-order, never kickstart, never crowdfund. Buy things off the shelf when they're done. This applies to every type of product, but in this case, especially Palladium who have a track record of dropping balls, missing deadlines, and killing projects.
Quote from: RandyB on March 21, 2021, 03:33:33 PM
Quote from: Brad on March 20, 2021, 06:52:49 PM
It's amazing that someone who is such a massive Luddite also wrote some of the most technology-based RPGs ever. Maybe there's a lesson in there...
Once you reach a certain level of understanding of technology, Ludditism becomes more and more attractive. Ask anyone who works in IT infrastructure or cybersecurity. And ignore the software devs. They don't understand the tech; they cargo-cult.
This is very, very true. I've been dealing with the bureaucratic side of IT as of late and I wish I could get people to sign something. You know, with ink. And use white out to fix a mistake. I have long thought that offices with a little old lady who did the accounts book by hand is something worth returning to, instead of the ERP mammoths that arise in her stead.
Are the Palladium rules as bad as TBP would insist they are?
Quote from: Shasarak on March 21, 2021, 11:20:20 PM
Quote from: JeffB on March 21, 2021, 09:47:45 AM
The Hobby could use more Kevins and less WOTC/Paizos.
Except what has Kevin done lately?
Maybe a Kevin from 30 years ago.
RIFTS Bestiary One and Garden of the Gods look pretty awesome from my browsing!
As far as they way he has run his business- If that is what you mean- I don't have any personal negative issues/dealings with him/the company. I've enjoyed the products- the manner in which they are written, the production style, and the bang for the buck. As @Brad mentioned, he seems to absolutely love what he is doing, and really wants to share his creativity with everyone. I'd rather deal with the quirks of a hobbyist from the old days running his own small business, than a corporate lifestyle brand. YMMV.
Quote from: RandyB on March 21, 2021, 03:33:33 PM
Once you reach a certain level of understanding of technology, Ludditism becomes more and more attractive. Ask anyone who works in IT infrastructure or cybersecurity. And ignore the software devs. They don't understand the tech; they cargo-cult.
A lot of software devs would agree with your point. I'm one of them. I keep my games as tech free as possible, and I'm not the only one in my organization who does so, either.
Quote from: horsesoldier on March 22, 2021, 10:46:34 AM
Are the Palladium rules as bad as TBP would insist they are?
I don't know what they say there, but the rules suck goat balls in July.
Quote from: horsesoldier on March 22, 2021, 10:46:34 AM
Are the Palladium rules as bad as TBP would insist they are?
It's a mixed bag. Palladium is notorious for being hacked together from all the RPGs, sometimes literally cut and pasted. MDC rules are terribly wonky. Lots and lots of acronyms. PPE, ISP, MDC, SDC, etc. It's like a houseruled version of D&D, which it pretty much started out as, and collected decades of rulings turned into official rules. Combat is d20 based, and skills are d% based, which I find really clunky to use at the table, switching between resolution mechanics.
I've seen much worse. It's playable out of the box, but it screams out for house rules to tailor it to your play style. And I tend to want to use as few sourcebooks as possible, not only to prevent power creep, but to keep the tone of a campaign consistent.
Quote from: horsesoldier on March 22, 2021, 10:46:34 AM
Are the Palladium rules as bad as TBP would insist they are?
Depends on your definition of "bad" and, to an extent, which set of rules you're using as there have been variations over the years.
My personal feelings are that Palladium Fantasy 1e and Rifts Ultimate Edition are the two best iterations of the mechanics (RUE having finally found the right balance point between modern ranged attack and dodge modifiers, imho, and they finally dropped the 98% max on skills, just 99-00 is always a fail... but you can bump a skill above 98% to offset circumstance penalties).
That said, there is zero pretense at balance between options. Kevin has always leaned hard on the idea that real life isn't fair and mechanics should express a concept realistically rather than trying to throw in intangibles to counterbalance some things just flat out being better. So there are no hidden mechanics that will ever put a vagabond on par with a Rogue Scholar, much less a Ley Line Walker or Glitterboy Pilot. A Coalition SAMAS is going to be across the board superior to the Northern Gun's default power armor and superior at everything but raw speed against a Flying Titan armor.
Some things are better than others on that front. The mechanics are transparent enough that a GM and players can eyeball power levels and come to some agreements on available options if they choose; we got excellent mileage from sticking to mortals with OCCs from the core book and those with it being limited to light power armor or partial conversion borgs (so Headhunter OCC instead of Borg OCC).
The other thing that can affect the perception of "bad" is organization. The best Palladium books can be generously be described as haphazard in their organization. We're talking AD&D 1e DMG or worse in some cases. As such it runs best with a GM who really knows the system and/or is very good at improvising and as a player being willing to run with "rulings not rules" to smooth out the bumps (odds are there probably is a specific rule somewhere, it's just not often worth digging past the most common sections for it).
An in-depth editing pass by an outsider with a focus on organization would do WONDERS for the system and make it loads more playable. The mechanics in general are definitely old school feel relative to more modern unified mechanics with a focus on balance between PCs, but that can be a feature in and of itself for some.
TL;DR... Palladium rules are horribly organized and have zero pretense at balance, but aren't bad in and of themselves. I'd definitely take them over any AD&D/BECMI-based OSR system.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 22, 2021, 12:17:49 PM
That said, there is zero pretense at balance between options. Kevin has always leaned hard on the idea that real life isn't fair and mechanics should express a concept realistically rather than trying to throw in intangibles to counterbalance some things just flat out being better. So there are no hidden mechanics that will ever put a vagabond on par with a Rogue Scholar, much less a Ley Line Walker or Glitterboy Pilot. A Coalition SAMAS is going to be across the board superior to the Northern Gun's default power armor and superior at everything but raw speed against a Flying Titan armor.
I agree with his approach. Some GM guidance in the books would be nice, but we do have the GM Guide.
If you're running a combat heavy game, then the players are well advised to know that a Vagabond with a laser pistol is just not going to contribute like a Glitter Boy. But I really love the idea of an adventuring group that contains a wide level of types. Like Juicer, Vagabond, Mage and Psyker. Playing a game like that, combat should really be de-emphasized, and more emphasis on RP situations and problems that don't rely on having the biggest boom stick to resolve.
The thing to remember with Palladium is when you mention it almost everyone thinks of Rifts and only Rifts. The reason why this is an issue is the nature of what Rifts is and what the palladium system was designed to do.
Rifts is everything thrown together into one big pot (mecha, power armor, mages, psychics, ordinary people, magic items, monsters, demons, gods, etc)
The Palladium system was really created to run Fantasy (Palladium Fantasy 1st ed), and then had new bits tacked on for each new line (which came with small rule changes to existing material along the way).
Some examples of things added over time for different game lines.
SDC - added for Heroes Unlimited
PPE - added for Beyond the Supernatural
Mutant Animal creation - first appeared in Heroes unlimited but greatly expanded for TMNT
MDC - added for Robotech (to cover mecha and spacecraft)
Basically you are looking at nearly 10 years of minor changes and rule addons before Rifts was released in 1990.
Good stuff, thank you for the answers fellas.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 22, 2021, 01:57:47 PM
I agree with his approach. Some GM guidance in the books would be nice, but we do have the GM Guide.
If you're running a combat heavy game, then the players are well advised to know that a Vagabond with a laser pistol is just not going to contribute like a Glitter Boy. But I really love the idea of an adventuring group that contains a wide level of types. Like Juicer, Vagabond, Mage and Psyker. Playing a game like that, combat should really be de-emphasized, and more emphasis on RP situations and problems that don't rely on having the biggest boom stick to resolve.
For the record, our last campaign had a Ley Line Walker (me), Mind Melter, Techno-wizard, Psi-Hound, Cyberknight and a Robot Pilot (Flying Titan)... and I insisted on playing my Ley Line Walker as a normal-ish guy; meaning I use my magic to earn a living ferrying goods and people around along the ley line networks of the Magic Zone and I really dislike killing people if I can disable them with spells like magic net or just escape from them instead (I took out nearly half our opponents in the campaign by myself, but killed absolutely no one; even going out of my way to save the lives of injured but not dead opponents; to the point that the combat monkey in the Flying Titan was getting a little ticked that he wasn't able to kill more people; though the resale value on undamaged body armor mostly made up for it... mini-missiles and armor repairs are expensive).
Quote from: lordmalachdrim on March 22, 2021, 02:33:49 PM
The thing to remember with Palladium is when you mention it almost everyone thinks of Rifts and only Rifts. The reason why this is an issue is the nature of what Rifts is and what the palladium system was designed to do.
Rifts is everything thrown together into one big pot (mecha, power armor, mages, psychics, ordinary people, magic items, monsters, demons, gods, etc)
The Palladium system was really created to run Fantasy (Palladium Fantasy 1st ed), and then had new bits tacked on for each new line (which came with small rule changes to existing material along the way).
Some examples of things added over time for different game lines.
SDC - added for Heroes Unlimited
PPE - added for Beyond the Supernatural
Mutant Animal creation - first appeared in Heroes unlimited but greatly expanded for TMNT
MDC - added for Robotech (to cover mecha and spacecraft)
Basically you are looking at nearly 10 years of minor changes and rule addons before Rifts was released in 1990.
Interestingly enough, I have played (and enjoyed) each of those games (most of them right after release. BtS and TMNT were a blast!). And, as stand-alone games, they usually work pretty well. Then you mash them all together in Rifts, and you get total garbage.
Quote from: horsesoldier on March 22, 2021, 10:46:34 AM
Are the Palladium rules as bad as TBP would insist they are?
Rifts can be. Anything pre-Rifs tended to be very playable as the system has actually not that many moving parts. Just lots of decorations on the gears.
I GM'd alot of Palladium stuff and when was running a gaming club way back I GMed the most Beyond the Supernatural and Robotech. Later in the early 2000s GMed a Rifts campaign.
Personally I feel Rifts works. But its alot like 1e Shadowrun in that the GM needs to know the system well else it can go very badly one way or another due to how combat works.
Quote from: Omega on March 23, 2021, 08:37:18 AM
Rifts can be. Anything pre-Rifs tended to be very playable as the system has actually not that many moving parts. Just lots of decorations on the gears...
Personally I feel Rifts works. But its alot like 1e Shadowrun in that the GM needs to know the system well else it can go very badly one way or another due to how combat works.
As a lead-in to running Rifts, I recommend starting with Macross-era Robotech as it's got the MDC and bigger bonuses with mecha combat while still using SDC at the personal scale and then expanding into Robotech II: The Sentinels where MDC body armor/hand weapons become comon and some of the playable alien species have limited forms of psychic and magic powers and/or personal MDC bodies.
Going from Robotech II: The Sentinels to Rifts is not nearly the leap as from say Palladium Fantasy or even Heroes Unlimited (where AR still mattered).
By contrast, I consider the change from spells/day to PPE to be fairly trivial as it was is really just applying the ISP system that already existed in Palladium Fantasy for psionics to the magic system. Thus, it's not a big change in the learning curve the way SDC is only armor (Palladium Fantasy) to personal SDC (Heroes Unlimited) to giant robots/supertech have MDC (Robotech) was.
So in terms of lead-in, I'd say Palladium Fantasy 1e > Robotech (Macross) > Robotech II: The Sentinels > Rifts.
Quote from: Omega on March 21, 2021, 04:54:34 AMExample. I still use MS paint for some editing simply because it gets the job done without having to click 6 different sub tabs just to move something around. And the older MS paint was actually a bit more functional for my sprite projects way back as it supported certain older file types where the last version of MS paint does not, and also lacks some other functionality. Newer is not allways better.
Well hello there, fellow MSPaint afficionado! I knew we were still out there! ;)
Quote from: horsesoldier on March 22, 2021, 10:46:34 AM
Are the Palladium rules as bad as TBP would insist they are?
Long time Palladium GM here.
Yes, yes they are.
And...weirdly it doesn't matter in actual play...if you have the right group.
I'm unsure WHY exactly, but Kevin's [(AD&D + RuneQuest) x Gamma World]/2 mishmosh works so incredibly well in actual play with players who get into the setting, the archetypes and the action. But for decades, some of my most fun RPG memories have been Palladium sessions with a variety of their games from Palladium Fantasy 1e, Mechanoids, Rifts, Chaos Earth, Nightbane and Systems Failure.
Kevin has some odd magic. On paper, his system is wonky. If you're trying to make sense of stuff, it's double wonky. If you examine it and try to fix stuff, it's break your brain wonky. BUT if you and your players just go with the flow, hot damn Palladium games are mega-fun.
Robotech/Macross does the MDC well. But for some reason they seem to have forgotten why or how when got to Rifts.
Quote from: RandyB on March 21, 2021, 03:33:33 PM
Quote from: Brad on March 20, 2021, 06:52:49 PM
It's amazing that someone who is such a massive Luddite also wrote some of the most technology-based RPGs ever. Maybe there's a lesson in there...
Once you reach a certain level of understanding of technology, Ludditism becomes more and more attractive. Ask anyone who works in IT infrastructure or cybersecurity. And ignore the software devs. They don't understand the tech; they cargo-cult.
Oh yeah. I have multiple engineering and postgraduate degrees and decades of experience working in advanced technology, and I still use Microsoft Office XP. I mostly refuse updates to software because they break thing and remove features more than they improve anything. I'm still mad that I had to buy a smartphone when my old phone dies rather than another one with a slide out keyboard. Newer is very often not better. Frex, I have a 40 year old alarm clock that still works great while I'm lucky if my more recent equipment lasts a year.
Quote from: Omega on March 24, 2021, 01:25:41 AM
Robotech/Macross does the MDC well. But for some reason they seem to have forgotten why or how when got to Rifts.
I'll definitely agree with that assessment. The MDC levels were at a level that felt like the mecha were tough, but conventional explosives could still pose a threat.
For example, a Zentraedi Battlepod has 50 MDC (which is also about the MDC of a conventional tank) while a recoilless rifle does 1D10 MD so a coordinated attack by a squad with heavy weapons could drop a lone Battlepod (they could similarly cripple the sensor head of a Destroid or Veritech). Similarly, a short burst from the Veritech's 55mm GU-11 rifle does 3D6 MD or about twice what a recoilless rifle could inflict (and about what a tank's main gun could dish out).
My personal preference for time period was a few years post-Macross (before the SDF-3 launched) with the proto-Southern Cross/Sentinels gear from the Strike Force supplement in the mix and the details on the Zentraedi Control Zone from Breakout.
Personal body armor with 15 MDC also helped a lot in convincing PCs to occasionally get out of their cockpits to do some scouting.
2nd Edition Robotech (the one that spun out of their regaining the license for Shadow Chronicles) more accurately portrays the names and baseline capabilities of the mecha (the right armaments for example), but makes the same mistakes as Rifts regarding MDC as Rifts (probably because Kevin wanted them to be compatible/useable in Rifts since back when they had the original license he needed a good sized section of the conversion book on how to up-armor and upgrade the weapons to make Robotech mecha competitive with even early Rifts equipment).
My recommendation if you want to use 2e Robotech material with 1e is to cut all the MDC and MD damage values in half for everything except the capital ships. This generally results in a slight downgrade in MDC for human mecha, but their bonuses and damage will be slightly better (and the opposite, slightly better MDC, but lower damage for enemy units).
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 24, 2021, 11:38:58 AM
Quote from: Omega on March 24, 2021, 01:25:41 AM
Robotech/Macross does the MDC well. But for some reason they seem to have forgotten why or how when got to Rifts.
I'll definitely agree with that assessment. The MDC levels were at a level that felt like the mecha were tough, but conventional explosives could still pose a threat.
For example, a Zentraedi Battlepod has 50 MDC (which is also about the MDC of a conventional tank) while a recoilless rifle does 1D10 MD so a coordinated attack by a squad with heavy weapons could drop a lone Battlepod (they could similarly cripple the sensor head of a Destroid or Veritech). Similarly, a short burst from the Veritech's 55mm GU-11 rifle does 3D6 MD or about twice what a recoilless rifle could inflict (and about what a tank's main gun could dish out).
My personal preference for time period was a few years post-Macross (before the SDF-3 launched) with the proto-Southern Cross/Sentinels gear from the Strike Force supplement in the mix and the details on the Zentraedi Control Zone from Breakout.
Personal body armor with 15 MDC also helped a lot in convincing PCs to occasionally get out of their cockpits to do some scouting.
2nd Edition Robotech (the one that spun out of their regaining the license for Shadow Chronicles) more accurately portrays the names and baseline capabilities of the mecha (the right armaments for example), but makes the same mistakes as Rifts regarding MDC as Rifts (probably because Kevin wanted them to be compatible/useable in Rifts since back when they had the original license he needed a good sized section of the conversion book on how to up-armor and upgrade the weapons to make Robotech mecha competitive with even early Rifts equipment).
My recommendation if you want to use 2e Robotech material with 1e is to cut all the MDC and MD damage values in half for everything except the capital ships. This generally results in a slight downgrade in MDC for human mecha, but their bonuses and damage will be slightly better (and the opposite, slightly better MDC, but lower damage for enemy units).
It doesn't help that the source material had a certain lethality to it that just didn't apply to the hero characters, until it was time to for them to dramatically die.
Valkyrie/Veritech were way more fragile than their 250 MDC(?) capacity in the RPG might suggest.
The RPG seemed to take a simulationist approach to a narrative structure, and it made the Zentraedi mecha into glass cannons, where the earth mecha were capable of spike damage (missiles and gun full bursts) but could do a lot of damage soaking. Which kinda sorta worked for Robotech, but porting those paradigms into Rifts was wonky as hell.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 24, 2021, 12:40:53 PM
It doesn't help that the source material had a certain lethality to it that just didn't apply to the hero characters, until it was time to for them to dramatically die.
Valkyrie/Veritech were way more fragile than their 250 MDC(?) capacity in the RPG might suggest.
The RPG seemed to take a simulationist approach to a narrative structure, and it made the Zentraedi mecha into glass cannons, where the earth mecha were capable of spike damage (missiles and gun full bursts) but could do a lot of damage soaking. Which kinda sorta worked for Robotech, but porting those paradigms into Rifts was wonky as hell.
Its honestly why, if you halve the 2e Robotech numbers I think it actually works a bit better;
Halved, a VF-1 would have a Main Body of 175 MDC and its 55mm HEAP gun pod would do 1D6x10 MD w. a 10 round burst (250 round magazine) and the head lasers would deal 1D4 MD each (so the officer's variant would do 4D4 MD).
Halved, a Tomahawk (Excalibur in 1e) Destroid would have a main body of 237 MD and its particle beam arms would do 1D6x10+10 MD (with a 20 mile range) while the close range gun clusters would do 1D8x10 MD (but only a 2000 foot range and limited ammo).
Halved, a basic Zentraedi Battlepod would have a Main Body of 62 MDC and its particle guns would deal 1D4x10 MD.
The Officer's Pod would have a Main Body of 112 MDC and its main gun would do 1D6x10 MD (and potential knockdown if you fail a piloting check with a -15% penalty).
The Male Power Armor would have a Main Body of 125 MDC and its chest cannon would deal 1D6x10 MD to a blast radius, while its shoulder gun would do 5D6+5 MD with a potential knockdown (as above but only a -10% penalty).
In other words, relatively speaking, I think they tweaked the numbers relative to each other in the right direction, I just think they're a bit too high relative to SDC structures. Though to be fair, in 2e the person-scale anti-armor weapons would fire mini-missiles dealing about 4-6 times the damage of the 1e versions so even there I think the proportions are better. I'm just not a fan of big numbers for big numbers sake.
Honestly, given the number of "x10"s used for damage expressions coupled with hundreds of MDC on most locations, I almost think the whole thing might be better served if you just divided everything by 10... so the VF-1 has a Main Body of 35 MDC and its gun pod deals 2D6 MD and the Tomahawk has 47 MDC and deals 2D6+2 MD with its particle beams and 2D8 MD with its gun clusters.
That would actually be in line with the idea from 1e that a main battle tank should have a Main Body of about 50 MDC (relative to a HumVee's 4-5 MDC) and its main gun deal about 3D6 MD. A VF-1 SHOULD be less sturdy than a contemporary tank because of all the moving parts and weighing barely a third as much, but also have the unparalleled advantage in mobility that it demonstrates (i.e. good freakin' luck actually hitting a VF-1 with a tank gun while it strafes you with a 55mm HEAP autocannon that makes the A-10's Thunderbolt's 30mm model look like a pop gun).
You guys got me interested in Palladium Fantasy.
From p.3 of the main rulebook in the free preview on drivethru, I learn Humans have an 8% "Cannibalism" score (behind Goblins on 18%). I'm even more intrigued now.
Anyway, mashup of D&D and Runequest eh - anyone want to tell me more? I'm starting fresh on Palladium here. Never even looked at one of their games.
System or setting?
System-wise its a mix of d20s for combat and percentiles for skills. Very skill driven system really and there tends to be alot of leeway in what skills can acquire. Combat is fairly easy and armour works differently than in some other RPGs.
First off, any roll of 4 or better is a hit. But the defender can do things like dodge or parry.
Armour has a rating that if your hit roll is under, then the blow is taken by the armour which has its own HP. (STC)
The setting is fairly standard at its basics. But has several interesting features that sets it apart from many others. One in particular being the Wolfen empire which is fairly large in the northern region. Alot like BX's Known World, you are overall given a paragraph or two on each region. Though some like the Wolfen and Human lands get a little more info.
I always got the impression of a more sylvan land rather than a dark ages or middle-earth sort of setting.
Interesting, I didn;t even realise it had its own setting.
4 on a better on d20 to hit?
Quote from: Marchand on March 28, 2021, 07:54:02 AM
Interesting, I didn;t even realise it had its own setting.
4 on a better on d20 to hit?
Armor increases that number, parry and dodge rolls block the attack if higher (if I remember correctly)
Quote from: Marchand on March 28, 2021, 07:54:02 AM
Interesting, I didn;t even realise it had its own setting.
4 on a better on d20 to hit?
Actually it's 5 or better to hit a non-defending target; the confusion is that it's written that a 4 or less is an automatic miss. The latest rulesets also made ranged attacks require an 8 or better to hit (and with relatively low bonuses and penalties for things like target speed and evasive action). Called shots require a 12 or better and often have penalties for very small targets.
Really old settings like Mechanoids and Heroes Unlimited 1e also had particle beams that scored glancing blows with an 11+ and a direct hit only with an 15+ (they also ignored robot/natural AR, which was important in the Mechanoids and Heroes Unlimited).
Now, just because you hit those numbers doesn't mean you actually do damage. First there's Armor Rating (AR). If the attack roll with bonuses is higher than 4 (or 8 or 12), but lower than the AR then either the armor takes damage or, in the case of robots and creatures with robotic/natural AR it takes no damage at all.
Note that in the very first Palladium book, the Mechanoids, all AR was "natural/robotic" even human body armor and could be as high as an 18 (with only a +3-6 to hit)... which is where those particle beams I mentioned previously were actually BETTER at hitting in most cases.
Back in 1e Palladium Fantasy bonuses were generally low (a +6 would be a REALLY good bonus and your average starting PC is probably only +2-3 to hit) so full plate having an AR 18 and chain having 14-15 actually offered significant protection to the wearer. Later editions made it easier to accrue bonuses such that a +6 was generally the low end and so the value of non-robot/nation AR degraded significantly, particularly light armors with AR 10-14.
Armor had a Structural Damage Capacity (SDC) which determined how much damage it could take before being wrecked. Getting your armor repaired/replaced was also a significant gold sink.
The need to reflect heavily armored vehicles and mecha led to Robotech introducing the concept of MDC (mega-damage capacity). Each point of MDC was 100 SDC and any attack that did less than 100 SDC with a single round.
Ex. a .50 cal machine gun firing a full burst for 6D6x20 SDC could easily deal several hundred SDC damage in aggregate, but each round only did 6D6 SDC and so would do nothing to an MDC structure. By contrast, a LAW rocket does 1D6x100 SDC, less on average than that full burst from the .50 cal, but because it's all in one shot it could actually do 1D6 damage to an MDC structure.
Early Robotech had MDC reserved only for full-sized war machines like tanks, gunships and mecha. Humans and non-military vehicles still ran around with SDC. MDC values were also fairly low; a tank had about 50 MDC (a normal truck had about 400 SDC) while a heavily armored mecha was 250-300 MDC. Similarly for damage; a short burst from a 55mm autocratic cannon did 3D6 MD (a short burst from a .50 cal would do 6D6x3 SDC) while a fighter launched tactical nuclear warhead was in the 4D6x10 MD range.
As the timeline progressed though and the later anime series merged into Robotech focused more on characters in just body armor with hand energy guns who could harm them, the later books upgraded the personal scale armor and weapons to be low MDC as well (50 for the body armor with energy rifles doing 2D6 or so MD) with a corresponding increase in the values for armored mecha as well (this where having damage multipliers 1D6x10 and the like started becoming prevalent).
So AR and just raw SDC/MDC is the first side of where those low "to hit" thresholds are slightly misleading. The other half is active defense; parrying and dodging. These are basically just rolls like to attack and if they equal or beat the attacker's total, they parry or dodge the attack and usually take no damage.
Active defense usually require spending your own actions, with the latest iterations of the rules clarifying that these actions are subtracted from your total actions per round, but do NOT replace your next action in round robin turn sequence (which is a REALLY important balance tweak that fixes a lot of combat issues).
However, in 1e Palladium Fantasy one of the HUGE advantages of the fighting classes was that, unlike non-fighters, their parries did NOT require an action (called an "automatic" parry in the system) and with both weapons and shields providing bonuses to parry and most attacks being melee (and so able to be parried without special abilities) this was a HUGE defensive advantage for them.
Later interations such as Heroes Unlimited, Robotech and every subsequent game added an automatic parry to every form of hand-to-hand combat training and while such training was not universal for NPCs, pretty much every PC class got at least "Hand to Hand: Basic" as part of their skill package.
This wasn't as big a deal though since more modern settings tended to use more modern weapons and parrying a bullet just wasn't possible outside of certain options (typically large shields or super reflexes) and also typically damaged whatever you were parrying with, so dodging was the default defense.
Which inevitably led to the addition, with the super-agility of the Robotech Cyclone power armor to the "automatic dodge" which was like the automatic parry, but worked against everything. While at first it was limited to certain extremely small and agile options, power creep led to it showing up more and more.
Also of note is that the addition of various physical skills lead to dodge bonuses far outstripping ranged attack rolls (still back in the +3-6 range mostly while dodge bonuses could reach nearly double digits for characters with only average reflexes and I remember several with +12-14 or more).
And so began a decade plus of rule tweaks trying to fix the problem that resulted from opening the door to massive dodge bonuses and automatic dodges (people who say Palladium hasn't really updated it's rules haven't actually been paying attention).
The first tweak was minor; bonuses to automatic dodge were made separate from the ordinary dodge bonuses the physical skills could provide, but when that proved insufficient we entered what I call the "overcorrection phase."
During that phase Kevin decided that because lasers and rail guns and the like moved so insanely fast that they were virtually impossible to dodge. All dodge bonuses (including from your attributes) except those specifically stated to work against ranged weapons were removed AND a huge -10 penalty to dodge modern weapons.
It "solved" the problem, but made many games practically unplayable as the only defense against ranged attacks became massive amounts of MDC and due to the normal expense associated with armor repairs the game skewed heavily towards options that allowed regaining MDC without said expense (supernatural creatures with bio-regeneration, nanotechnology, force fields, etc.).
So, from there we slowly got the counter-correction; first the base to-hit number was raised to 8, then the dodge penalties were reduced (by Heroes Unlimited 2e they were -4) and penalties to attack based on cover, target speed and evasive action were added.
The definitive fix didn't arrive until Rifts Ultimate Edition where the proficiency bonuses for ranged attacks were adjusted, attribute bonuses again applied (but almost nothing else did) and the penalties to dodge now only applied at close range (within 50 ft).
The final fix came in the 2e Robotech games with the previously mentioned change to where dodging actions were taken from; and in so doing largely removed a lot of the need for automatic dodges in the first place.
See, previously dodging didn't just burn one of your actions per round, it burned your NEXT action... so if someone shoots at you and you choose to dodge, you can't shoot back because you're dodging and then the guy who shot at you gets their next action to attack, which you have to spend an action to dodge.
The only ways to break the cycle were to A) hope you win initiative on a subsequent round so you can do the same thing in reverse, B) have more actions than them, wait out the attacks and then use your extra actions to return fire (with them unable to dodge because they have no actions left), C) not dodge so you can use the action to attack back, or D) Automatic Dodge so you both avoid damage AND can return fire.
With the change though, dodging doesn't surrender your next action, just one from the end of the round, so you can dodge, shoot back and cause your opponent to spend an action from the end of their round to dodge it. Combat gets less lopsided in the initiative winner's favor with all the bonus actions that robot combat typically provided turning as much into effectively X automatic dodges per turn instead of always being attacks by the initiative winner that keep the defender dodging or undodgeable attacks at the end of the round by the guys with way more attacks than everyone else.
So that's a not-so-brief explanation of Palladium's combat system through the years. In terms of playability, I feel that Palladium Fantasy 1e and post-Rifts Ultimate Edition (Robotech 2e in particular) games are by far the best implementations while Palladium Fantasy 2e, Heroes Unlimited 2e and others of that period are among the worst.
Quote from: Marchand on March 28, 2021, 07:54:02 AM
Interesting, I didn;t even realise it had its own setting.
4 on a better on d20 to hit?
That above 4 is correct but will almost never come into play. The reason is if you have any form of Hand-to-Hand training you can attempt to parry a melee attack for free, so in effect it's really an opposed roll to hit.
If you do hit and the attack was equal or less then the AR of their armor you do damage to that. If above you do damage to them. If they are a species with a natural AR (demons, dragons, etc) and you roll below it you do no damage.
Yep.
Roll d20 + mods to hit.
4 or better is a hit.
Anything at or under armour threshold gets soaked by the armours HP/SDC.
Anything over goes to the target itself.
Target can try to dodge or parry.
With parry you roll a d20 + mods and try to beat the attackers roll.
Or you can opt to dodge, which is also a d20 roll vs the attack. But moves you away from the attacker and you can not attack next round since you put everything into fancy footwork as it were.
Co-ordinated simultaneous attacks prevent dodging and parrying. Otherwise a defender can parry multiple attacks within their field of view.
A pretty solid system and very similar to my own.
Thanks all for the commentary. I'm really tempted to give 1e Fantasy a look. Only seems to be the 1e Revised edition on Drivethru but people seem to think that is OK.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 28, 2021, 01:26:44 PM
a short burst from a 55mm autocratic cannon did 3D6 MD
Final argument of kings?!
Quote from: Marchand on March 30, 2021, 07:23:06 AM
Thanks all for the commentary. I'm really tempted to give 1e Fantasy a look. Only seems to be the 1e Revised edition on Drivethru but people seem to think that is OK.
The only difference between 1e and 1e Revised is the cover art and removing one of the insanity tables. It's otherwise identical; even the percent chance of cannibalism.
Quote from: Marchand on March 30, 2021, 07:23:06 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 28, 2021, 01:26:44 PM
a short burst from a 55mm autocratic cannon did 3D6 MD
Final argument of kings?!
And proof that the great stealth jester, Spell Check, has struck again.
This is a % liar moment. Autocratic cannon should be a thing!
Its Rifts. It IS a thing somewhere, somehow. A cannon that fires little angry autocrats at targets. The pen truely is mightier than the sword. 8)
Quote from: Omega on March 31, 2021, 12:06:18 PM
Its Rifts. It IS a thing somewhere, somehow. A cannon that fires little angry autocrats at targets. The pen truely is mightier than the sword. 8)
Don't mean to derail this thread at all but, reading that all I could picture was a horde of Nancy Pelosi clones being fired out of a veritech's gunpod and splattering against some random battlepod. Thank you for a good laugh.