I have a feeling that Starfinder will win the sci-fi RPG war (if there is one going on) when it is released. Games like Eclipse Phase, Rogue Trader, Mindjammer, Numenera, and FFG Star Wars will be brushed aside once Pathfinder players are shown Starfinder. And players that still love Pathfinder rules, but haven't played it in awhile because they've wanted sci-fi, will also be making Starfinder their new go-to sci-fi RPG.
If a player is a D&D 3.75 kind of player, that is. I'm sure there are a hell-o-lot of them out there. Paizo is doing it right by taking their time with this and having announced their game over a year early.
Assuming Starfinder winds up being generic enough that's a reasonable bet, especially because WotC is not likely to follow this move with their own 'more official' space D&D.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905934Assuming Starfinder winds up being generic enough that's a reasonable bet, especially because WotC is not likely to follow this move with their own 'more official' space D&D.
Do you think there are two packs out there for mainstream RPGing? The D&D players and the Pathfinder players? Or do you think it's more players playing from both game sets?
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;905929If a player is a D&D 3.75 kind of player, that is.
Pathfinder is more like D&D 3.51 when we account for how much is changed, or rather, how much is the same:). D&D 3.75 would be a better denominator for things like Fantasy Craft and 13th Age.
Also, Starfinder is going to resolve the Sci-Fi RPG war about as much as America joining "the war to end all wars" has put an end to wars today;).
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;905940Do you think there are two packs out there for mainstream RPGing? The D&D players and the Pathfinder players? Or do you think it's more players playing from both game sets?
Deus Ex Machina has already release Amethyst Quintessence and I think Ultramodern5 is due out next month. I have the former and will get the latter when it is released. I'll probably pick up Starfinder as well when it comes out, but I like the 5e route mainly because I like how 5e doesn't have the bloat of d20 derived systems and the cost. I imagine Starfinder is going to be a pricey option.
If it's done right I think a major industry player could capture a good chunk of the sf market.
Of course, it can't be done right with D&D's mechanics as far as I'm concerned anyhow.
Alternity 2.0 here we come.
Yech
Quote from: Krimson;905945Amethyst
My
deeply tanned chum. :cool:
Unseen, shot from the hip opinion- It'll appeal to people who already like sci-fi and Pathfinder D&D, but not necessarily to either group alone.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;905955Unseen, shot from the hip opinion- It'll appeal to people who already like sci-fi and Pathfinder D&D, but not necessarily to either group alone.
Right on the mark.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;905929I have a feeling that Starfinder will win the sci-fi RPG war (if there is one going on) when it is released. Games like Eclipse Phase, Rogue Trader, Mindjammer, Numenera, and FFG Star Wars will be brushed aside once Pathfinder players are shown Starfinder. And players that still love Pathfinder rules, but haven't played it in awhile because they've wanted sci-fi, will also be making Starfinder their new go-to sci-fi RPG.
If a player is a D&D 3.75 kind of player, that is. I'm sure there are a hell-o-lot of them out there. Paizo is doing it right by taking their time with this and having announced their game over a year early.
While I hope it's good and it does well I have no interest in
Pathfinder rules, fantasy or otherwise. I play
Numenera or FFG's
Star Wars because I love their respective settings
and systems, not because they're all I have and tolerate them. Mileage will vary, of course.
...
Well, it's not that PFRPG doesn't feature neither SF settings, nor supplements. ;)
(http://www.drivethrurpg.com/images/8511/155289.jpg)
Another DragonStar.
Yeah thats going to so end the debate which isnt even a debate as theres so many systems and style and player tastes no one game will ever appeal to everyone.
Traveller fans will shrug and keep playing Traveller. Spelljammer fans will do the same and so on.
Pathfinder and 3xe fans will likely enjoy it IF they were looking for a good SF version of D&D.
Quote from: Omega;905975Another DragonStar.
Most accurate post so far. Hopefully not a predictor, though. DragonStar started with an intriguing sounding premise, then threw out some space dungeon crawls and mechanical books and then sort of withered away.
I worry about the Starfinder premise. It sounds cools (Absalom is gone, as is everyone's memory of what happen to it), but have doubts they can milk it out for too long without aggravating the player base.
As for me, I like Pathfinder, I like SF, but this is really not seeming like something I'll play. Numenera is more what I want out of science fantasy (alas, I don't care for the system.)
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;905929I have a feeling that Starfinder will win the sci-fi RPG war (if there is one going on) when it is released. Games like Eclipse Phase, Rogue Trader, Mindjammer, Numenera, and FFG Star Wars will be brushed aside once Pathfinder players are shown Starfinder. And players that still love Pathfinder rules, but haven't played it in awhile because they've wanted sci-fi, will also be making Starfinder their new go-to sci-fi RPG.
If a player is a D&D 3.75 kind of player, that is. I'm sure there are a hell-o-lot of them out there. Paizo is doing it right by taking their time with this and having announced their game over a year early.
Star Wars is more popular than Star Trek. Always has been. However there is more enough hard sci-fi fans to make hard sci-fi RPGs worth publishing. And given the low barriers to producing works and finding people to play with who give a fuck who is the market leader is. Every niche has people catering to do it.
GW already did Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs in space.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;905929I have a feeling that Starfinder will win the sci-fi RPG war (if there is one going on) when it is released. Games like Eclipse Phase, Rogue Trader, Mindjammer, Numenera, and FFG Star Wars will be brushed aside once Pathfinder players are shown Starfinder.
QFT. Because (paraphrased) learning new game systems is teh h4rd!*
* True story. Don't remember the exact words but basically a large segment of the local RPG community will stick to "Official" RPGs like PF and D&D.
Quote from: fellowhoodlum;906076QFT. Because (paraphrased) learning new game systems is teh h4rd!*
* True story. Don't remember the exact words but basically a large segment of the local RPG community will stick to "Official" RPGs like PF and D&D.
What, do they think Rogue Trader is somehow "unofficial" or something:D?
Quote from: fellowhoodlum;906076QFT. Because (paraphrased) learning new game systems is teh h4rd!*
* True story. Don't remember the exact words but basically a large segment of the local RPG community will stick to "Official" RPGs like PF and D&D.
Heh. ;)
Playing the Devil's advocate here, but it's often not about learning, but
UN-learning. Certain people are gonna find it difficult to quickly change their style to the one assumed by [new game], if the former one, the one they have been playing relied on very specific gameplay. For example, players engaging in combat heavy D&D sessions for years, are almost sure to have their ass handed to them during their first Call of Cthulhu adventure. ;)
Quote from: AsenRG;906081What, do they think Rogue Trader is somehow "unofficial" or something:D?
Maybe it's local culture but there is a thing about "brand recognition" here. People prefer to play what's recognised as popular, hence the "main" brands like D&D and PF. 40K RPGs are mostly known to those who play Games Workshop but their following does not extend far from the wargamer circle. Heck even Star Wars RPGs aren't as common as one might think. Most Star Wars tabletop gaming here is focused on the X-Wing and other minis games.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;906086Playing the Devil's advocate here, but it's often not about learning, but UN-learning. Certain people are gonna find it difficult to quickly change their style to the one assumed by [new game], if the former one, the one they have been playing relied on very specific gameplay. For example, players engaging in combat heavy D&D sessions for years, are almost sure to have their ass handed to them during their first Call of Cthulhu adventure. ;)
I've personally witnessed this in CoC games I've played. Also, the look of confusion as you tell them there are no levels and the endless poring over equipment lists (although this is more prevalent with Shadowrun players)
But back on topic. My concern with making PF a space game is that not just the system will be imported but the mindset of the players along with the spirt of PF and D&D type RPGs. Space dungeons located in space wilderness to be explored and space orcs killed for space loot. Sigh.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;906086Heh. ;)
Playing the Devil's advocate here, but it's often not about learning, but UN-learning. Certain people are gonna find it difficult to quickly change their style to the one assumed by [new game], if the former one, the one they have been playing relied on very specific gameplay. For example, players engaging in combat heavy D&D sessions for years, are almost sure to have their ass handed to them during their first Call of Cthulhu adventure. ;)
Well, that's part of the fun:).
Quote from: fellowhoodlum;906093Maybe it's local culture but there is a thing about "brand recognition" here. People prefer to play what's recognised as popular, hence the "main" brands like D&D and PF. 40K RPGs are mostly known to those who play Games Workshop but their following does not extend far from the wargamer circle. Heck even Star Wars RPGs aren't as common as one might think. Most Star Wars tabletop gaming here is focused on the X-Wing and other minis games.
OK, I'll admit it, your local scene is weird;).
QuoteBut back on topic. My concern with making PF a space game is that not just the system will be imported but the mindset of the players along with the spirt of PF and D&D type RPGs. Space dungeons located in space wilderness to be explored and space orcs killed for space loot. Sigh.
Yeah, and that's exactly why it's not likely to replace
real SF games.
Quote from: AsenRG;906150Well, that's part of the fun:).
You sure about that? Truckloads of "here's why system X is irredeemably stupid" discussions are rooted in "I tried to play X like I'm playing Y and it was awful, here's my butthurt". ;)
Quote from: fellowhoodlum;906093But back on topic. My concern with making PF a space game is that not just the system will be imported but the mindset of the players along with the spirt of PF and D&D type RPGs. Space dungeons located in space wilderness to be explored and space orcs killed for space loot. Sigh.
Heh, this reminds me "it's Morrowind only with rifles" discussions that accompanied the release of Fallout 3 video game. Good times. ;)
That aside, it's possible. It might be quite fun. Would it be enough to replace all those space opera/space western/
just take us where nobody went before games out there? I highly doubt it.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;906152You sure about that? Truckloads of "here's why system X is irredeemably stupid" discussions are rooted in "I tried to play X like I'm playing Y and it was awful, here's my butthurt". ;)
Of course I'm sure! I have fun with the discussions, and sometimes with explaining to the OP why the "stupid" in the title applies to him and not the system, so fun will be had one way or another...:)
QuoteThat aside, it's possible. It might be quite fun. Would it be enough to replace all those space opera/space western/just take us where nobody went before games out there? I highly doubt it.
Exactly, despite what the OP claimed;).
Quote from: Omega;905975Another DragonStar.
Yeah thats going to so end the debate which isnt even a debate as theres so many systems and style and player tastes no one game will ever appeal to everyone.
Traveller fans will shrug and keep playing Traveller. Spelljammer fans will do the same and so on.
Pathfinder and 3xe fans will likely enjoy it IF they were looking for a good SF version of D&D.
Pretty much. The D20 boom gave us a plenty of SF games built on its engine, so this isn't anything new. Paizo is a solid company with a strong following, so I think this will succeed, but I'm guessing it is mostly going to be luring players away from Pathfinder.
Shawn's premise that it is going to steal away all the Eclipse Phase and Rogue Trader fans seems completely off. I don't see it providing the same kind of experience at all. It's not going to put a big dent in Traveller fans anyway. Even within the world of SF games based on a D&D engine, this is a completely different animal than Stars Without Number, and it isn't going to pull me away from that.
Given all the "D&D in Space" variants we have seen over the years that failed to catch fire, it seems weird to assert that the mere existence of this game is going to be an irresistible lure.
Quote from: Baulderstone;906215Pretty much. The D20 boom gave us a plenty of SF games built on its engine, so this isn't anything new. Paizo is a solid company with a strong following, so I think this will succeed, but I'm guessing it is mostly going to be luring players away from Pathfinder.
Shawn's premise that it is going to steal away all the Eclipse Phase and Rogue Trader fans seems completely off. I don't see it providing the same kind of experience at all. It's not going to put a big dent in Traveller fans anyway. Even within the world of SF games based on a D&D engine, this is a completely different animal than Stars Without Number, and it isn't going to pull me away from that.
Given all the "D&D in Space" variants we have seen over the years that failed to catch fire, it seems weird to assert that the mere existence of this game is going to be an irresistible lure.
This is my feeling. I am sure it will be successful, but I have zero interest in anything Paizo does. My sense is people who are not already playing pathfinder are unlikely to covert to it in large numbers. There are plenty of d20 sci fi games out there. I'm much more interested in playing those than a Paizo game (which is why I play 3E or 3.5 when I do want d20 fantasy, instead of Pathfinder). It definitely has its audience. But it also has a an aesthetic and style that doesn't appeal to everyone.
It will probably appeal to Pathfinder players who want to try sci-fi but don't want to start over with a new system that isn't compatible with their large Pathfinder library and people who liked the sci-fi elements in Iron Gods/Season 6 and want more of that. I doubt it will prompt many players of existing sci-fi or space fantasy games to abandon them in favor of Pathfinder D&D in space. It's not like D&D in space is some bold new thing that people didn't know they were waiting for. As other have mentioned, it has been done before. It generally hasn't done all that well either. Even Spelljammer was a flop at the time.
Quote from: Baulderstone;906215Shawn's premise that it is going to steal away all the Eclipse Phase and Rogue Trader fans seems completely off. I don't see it providing the same kind of experience at all. It's not going to put a big dent in Traveller fans anyway. Even within the world of SF games based on a D&D engine, this is a completely different animal than Stars Without Number, and it isn't going to pull me away from that.
Given all the "D&D in Space" variants we have seen over the years that failed to catch fire, it seems weird to assert that the mere existence of this game is going to be an irresistible lure.
My train of thought was about existing Pathfinder players. Sci-fi players of other games that aren't into Pathfinder won't care about Starfinder probably.
Quote from: yosemitemike;906236It will probably appeal to Pathfinder players who want to try sci-fi but don't want to start over with a new system that isn't compatible with their large Pathfinder library and people who liked the sci-fi elements in Iron Gods/Season 6 and want more of that. I doubt it will prompt many players of existing sci-fi or space fantasy games to abandon them in favor of Pathfinder D&D in space. It's not like D&D in space is some bold new thing that people didn't know they were waiting for. As other have mentioned, it has been done before. It generally hasn't done all that well either. Even Spelljammer was a flop at the time.
Exactly.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;906265My train of thought was about existing Pathfinder players. Sci-fi players of other games that aren't into Pathfinder won't care about Starfinder probably.
If the setting is interesting enough then it may draw attention. Too generic and it will get the usual shrug. If it has ship building rules then it has a higher chance of attracting interest.
Quote from: Omega;906271If the setting is interesting enough then it may draw attention. Too generic and it will get the usual shrug. If it has ship building rules then it has a higher chance of attracting interest.
I go to game stores and ask about Starfinder. The person at the sales counter shows no interest at all when I mention it's a sci-fi RPG due out in a year. Then I mention the Paizo Pathfinder part of the story. It's like an EF Hutton TV commercial at that point. Players at the tables are like, "Wha -- What?!" as they check the wi-fi bars on their iPhones to look it up.
The first time someone asked me about "Starfinder" I thought it was a smartphone app for tourists in Beverly Hills who were stalking their favorite celebrities.
Actually, I still wish it was.
Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;906274The first time someone asked me about "Starfinder" I thought it was a smartphone app for tourists in Beverly Hills who were stalking their favorite celebrities.
Actually, I still wish it was.
Riot!
Quote from: AsenRG;906196Of course I'm sure! I have fun with the discussions, and sometimes with explaining to the OP why the "stupid" in the title applies to him and not the system, so fun will be had one way or another...:)
But the fun doesn't come from the
gameplay itself. It's like throwing eggs at George Lucas. While fun, it doesn't change the fact Star Wars prequels are shit. :cool:
Quote from: fellowhoodlum;906093But back on topic. My concern with making PF a space game is that not just the system will be imported but the mindset of the players along with the spirt of PF and D&D type RPGs. Space dungeons located in space wilderness to be explored and space orcs killed for space loot. Sigh.
Minus the Space Orcs (scro they were called in Spelljammer), that was basically Traveller for its first few years of existence. A lot of early modules were basically space dungeons. Twilight's Peak in particular.
Eventually they got away from that, especially with the really excellent Traveller Adventure
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;906273I go to game stores and ask about Starfinder. The person at the sales counter shows no interest at all when I mention it's a sci-fi RPG due out in a year. Then I mention the Paizo Pathfinder part of the story. It's like an EF Hutton TV commercial at that point. Players at the tables are like, "Wha -- What?!" as they check the wi-fi bars on their iPhones to look it up.
As we were saying, Pathfinder fans with no particular interest in SFRPGs will be all over this, at least initially. We'll see if they can win anyone over that already plays an SFRPG they are happy with. Maybe they can win over some of the 40k crowd. While people play those games, it seems to be despite the systems.
Quote from: JeremyR;906280Minus the Space Orcs (scro they were called in Spelljammer), that was basically Traveller for its first few years of existence. A lot of early modules were basically space dungeons. Twilight's Peak in particular.
Eventually they got away from that, especially with the really excellent Traveller Adventure
I remember one of the first Call of Cthulhu adventures being a dungeon crawl in a Central American pyramid as well.
I haven't followed Paizo since they were putting out Dragon and Dungeon magazines. Based on the adventure paths in Dungeon, I could see it being a nice model for a prepackaged science-fiction campaign. Every installment was a new exotic location to explore and fight in. The Shackled City and Age of Wyrms both had a solid pulpy flavor that would translate to science-fantasy well.
I'm having very mixed emotions about Starfinder...
On one hand, I love Pathfinder, and we play it regularly. And I like Paizo and the way they do things. They produce a lot of good books, and I'm sure they will do so for Starfinder also.
On the other hand, I dislike having more than one game using the same system. I've never bought or been interested in any other d20 game apart from D&D/Pathfinder, and especially not any sci-fi d20 game.
So I'll probably get it, but at any given period I'll probably only play/run one or the other between Pathfinder and Starfinder.
This all makes me yearn for WOTC to make a Star Frontiers 2nd (Or 3rd depending how you look at it) Not that I would want to see it 5e'd. Or need more than the original or the remastered version. But it would be cool to see it get some official love.:)
Quote from: Ronin;906436This all makes me yearn for WOTC to make a Star Frontiers 2nd (Or 3rd depending how you look at it) Not that I would want to see it 5e'd. Or need more than the original or the remastered version. But it would be cool to see it get some official love.:)
TSR tried with Zebulons Guide and botched it. WOTC tried with Alternity. Botched it. Tried again with d20 Future. And totally botched it. Gamma Worlds gotten the same sub-standard treatment.
Quote from: Omega;906449TSR tried with Zebulons Guide and botched it. WOTC tried with Alternity. Botched it. Tried again with d20 Future. And totally botched it. Gamma Worlds gotten the same sub-standard treatment.
Perhaps then a Space Crawl Classic then?:)
Starfinder is mostly already there anway. Pathfinder already has ray guns, robots, AIs and aliens in it.
Quote from: Ronin;906473Perhaps then a Space Crawl Classic then?:)
There's Crawljammer for DCC... basic rules and adventures in a series of 'zines. Not sure if there's plans to meld it all together into a single book.
I had forgotten about that.
Another thought I had Strange Stars OSR version is coming out sometime soon.
Quote from: Ronin;906487Another thought I had Strange Stars OSR version is coming out sometime soon.
? I'll have to take a look at that.
Quote from: Omega;906449TSR tried with Zebulons Guide and botched it. WOTC tried with Alternity. Botched it. Tried again with d20 Future. And totally botched it. Gamma Worlds gotten the same sub-standard treatment.
I've never understood the dislike of Zebulon's Guide. I love that book. I would have happily bought a dozen more like it. Can someone explain the dislike to me?
Quote from: Tetsubo;906530I've never understood the dislike of Zebulon's Guide. I love that book. I would have happily bought a dozen more like it. Can someone explain the dislike to me?
It was effectively a 2nd edition. As it changed the game's system, from straight percentile to a chart like FASERIP. It also changed character creation. Technically you had to convert existing characters to the "new" system to use them.
Quote from: David Johansen;905950Alternity 2.0 here we come.
Yech
I would buy the hell out of Alternity 2.0
Quote from: Ronin;906473Perhaps then a Space Crawl Classic then?:)
TSR Tried that. Buck Rogers was effectively Star Frontiers with D&D rules instead. Replace aliens with RAM and Genies.
Quote from: Omega;906634TSR Tried that. Buck Rogers was effectively Star Frontiers with D&D rules instead. Replace aliens with RAM and Genies.
I thought Star Frontiers was so much better than Buck Rogers though. It hit that vaguely pulpy sci-fi vibe that was what I loved about Star Wars. Buck Rogers just seemed forced.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;905929I have a feeling that Starfinder will win the sci-fi RPG war (if there is one going on) when it is released. Games like Eclipse Phase, Rogue Trader, Mindjammer, Numenera, and FFG Star Wars will be brushed aside once Pathfinder players are shown Starfinder. And players that still love Pathfinder rules, but haven't played it in awhile because they've wanted sci-fi, will also be making Starfinder their new go-to sci-fi RPG.
D&D IN SPAAAAAACCCEEEE.... has been tried before. It's never been some kind of magical knock-out punch (and has usually sputtered).
If
Starfinder picks one solid SF genre to kitchen sink (which I'm assuming would be space opera), it will have a shot. If Paizo commits to producing high quality supplementary material and adventure paths, it will definitely give it an edge over most other SF games.
Quote from: Omega;906634TSR Tried that. Buck Rogers was effectively Star Frontiers with D&D rules instead. Replace aliens with RAM and Genies.
I used to use XXVc with AD&D Battlesystem so I could run fleet versus fleet battles. Good times.
It will help if they come up with an organized play structure comparable to PFS. Some people may go to it in that case simply because that makes finding a game easier. I have read that they want to but what it will look like, when it will come out and how well it will be supported is unknown.
Quote from: Omega;906271If the setting is interesting enough then it may draw attention. Too generic and it will get the usual shrug. If it has ship building rules then it has a higher chance of attracting interest.
I think (just speculation on my part) it will be like Pathfinder itself. Generic but with enough to stand on its own.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;906662If Starfinder picks one solid SF genre to kitchen sink (which I'm assuming would be space opera), it will have a shot. If Paizo commits to producing high quality supplementary material and adventure paths, it will definitely give it an edge over most other SF games.
I would think they will. Adventure paths are what they made their bones on. I see useful supplement in thier future. Maybe not as many as PF. But enough.
Quote from: Krimson;906678I used to use XXVc with AD&D Battlesystem so I could run fleet versus fleet battles. Good times.
We just plugged in SF:Knight Hawks ship system and went with that. They use the same deck layout style even.
Quote from: Ronin;906688I think (just speculation on my part) it will be like Pathfinder itself. Generic but with enough to stand on its own.
I would think they will. Adventure paths are what they made their bones on. I see useful supplement in thier future. Maybe not as many as PF. But enough.
I've been looking at a lot of OGL RPGs. Most of them seem to have SRD text copy/pasted all over them, with references/trademarks either renamed or stripped to prevent being sued by their original game publishers. The writers of these RPGs then fail to add where they have removed stuff. I call these ASYLUM RPGs. Because they are just like films made by The Asylum. Worse than just knock-offs. They are soul-less in their writing.
The exception, of course, seems to be with Pathfinder. Paizo added their own stuff to the OGL they adopted. Made the game something of their own, as it were. Got players excited about the rule set they used. I expect Starfinder to have at least that same written treatment.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;906881I've been looking at a lot of OGL RPGs. Most of them seem to have SRD text copy/pasted all over them, with references/trademarks either renamed or stripped to prevent being sued by their original game publishers. The writers of these RPGs then fail to add where they have removed stuff. I call these ASYLUM RPGs. Because they are just like films made by The Asylum. Worse than just knock-offs. They are soul-less in their writing.
Care to share specific examples of these ASYLUM RPGs?
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;906881I call these ASYLUM RPGs.
Seconding it. I'd love to learn about some of those "masterpieces". ;)
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;906906Care to share specific examples of these ASYLUM RPGs?
I'll see if can re-find some download links. I delete such PDFs from my download folder and forget about them if they are absolute drek.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;906909I'll see if can re-find some download links. I delete such PDFs from my download folder and forget about them if they are absolute drek.
Something I agree with Shawn on? Miracles do sometimes occur!
Yeah I've seen these too and discard them soon after. Some are little more than copy-paste of whole blocks of rules from AD&D or more often BX.
ACKS is one I kept as it did some new things with what it was copying. And it copies notably. Others moreso without as much innovation. Its rare to see things like Scarlet Heroes which look superficially like a copy but diverge very quickly into their own thing.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;906277But the fun doesn't come from the gameplay itself. It's like throwing eggs at George Lucas. While fun, it doesn't change the fact Star Wars prequels are shit. :cool:
Yes, but it's the most fun you can have with the prequels:).
Besides, if you try and make all games play the same, even when you put them in a different genre, you'd just replace "system X sucks" threads with "genre X sucks for gaming" threads, and I'd find that to be a net worsening of the current situation;).
Quote from: Simlasa;906481There's Crawljammer for DCC... basic rules and adventures in a series of 'zines. Not sure if there's plans to meld it all together into a single book.
For DCC, there's also Crawling Under A Broken Moon, also in e-zine format, and when combined with MCC, you can say Space Crawl Classics already exists in a proto-form.
Quote from: AsenRG;907362Yes, but it's the most fun you can have with the prequels:).
Besides, if you try and make all games play the same, even when you put them in a different genre, you'd just replace "system X sucks" threads with "genre X sucks for gaming" threads, and I'd find that to be a net worsening of the current situation;).
Perhaps, but it still doesn't change the fact that fun comes of different source than the actual gameplay. And if this is entirely acceptable, than I'd propose throwing the shit out of the window and instead spend time getting drunk, while complaining about the state of the world and how [
CENSORED] ruin everything. :D
Quote from: AsenRG;907362For DCC, there's also Crawling Under A Broken Moon, also in e-zine format, and when combined with MCC, you can say Space Crawl Classics already exists in a proto-form.
Yep, the DCC group I play in started with CUaBM, fighting pigtipedes in the ruins of a mall.
I'd add in Goodman's Purple Planet set to the proto Space Crawl Classics.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;905929I have a feeling that Starfinder will win the sci-fi RPG war (if there is one going on) when it is released. Games like Eclipse Phase, Rogue Trader, Mindjammer, Numenera, and FFG Star Wars will be brushed aside once Pathfinder players are shown Starfinder. And players that still love Pathfinder rules, but haven't played it in awhile because they've wanted sci-fi, will also be making Starfinder their new go-to sci-fi RPG.
I think you're probably fooling yourself here.
Quote from: RPGPundit;907985I think you're probably fooling yourself here.
Do you think, in general, Pathfinder players (past and current) may have found their sci-fi RPG by now? Or that they are more interested in fantasy (always have been, always will be), and so sci-fi RPGs (even Starfinder) will always be a non-interest of theirs?
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;906881I've been looking at a lot of OGL RPGs. Most of them seem to have SRD text copy/pasted all over them, with references/trademarks either renamed or stripped to prevent being sued by their original game publishers. The writers of these RPGs then fail to add where they have removed stuff. I call these ASYLUM RPGs. Because they are just like films made by The Asylum. Worse than just knock-offs. They are soul-less in their writing.
Back that with specifics.
Some Retro-clones, like OSRIC, are designed as references first and foremost. So they are going to be "souless" right out of the gate. OSRIC is a good example of this type of Retro-clone. Other retro-clones are a more of a particular author's vision of the original RPG or genre. An example of this is Lamentations of the Flame Princess.
Today in 2016, there is a huge variety of OGL RPGs address all type of settings, genres, sub genres, and rules design. It may that the selection of OGL RPGs you chose to read you found "soulless" but my experience that today's range of OGL RPGs is no better or worse than the range of traditionally published RPGs.
Quote from: estar;908029Back that with specifics.
Some Retro-clones, like OSRIC, are designed as references first and foremost. So they are going to be "souless" right out of the gate. OSRIC is a good example of this type of Retro-clone. Other retro-clones are a more of a particular author's vision of the original RPG or genre. An example of this is Lamentations of the Flame Princess.
Today in 2016, there is a huge variety of OGL RPGs address all type of settings, genres, sub genres, and rules design. It may that the selection of OGL RPGs you chose to read you found "soulless" but my experience that today's range of OGL RPGs is no better or worse than the range of traditionally published RPGs.
I don't recall saying all OGL RPGs. A lot of them have their own settings. My favorite of the bunch being Dark Albion.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;908059I don't recall saying all OGL RPGs. A lot of them have their own settings. My favorite of the bunch being Dark Albion.
You said most, I disagree that it is most or even a significant number of OGL RPGs that consist mostly of text cut and pasted from an SRD.
Quote from: estar;908076You said most, I disagree that it is most or even a significant number of OGL RPGs that consist mostly of text cut and pasted from an SRD.
Yes. Most of the ones I was looking at. Not all. And not most of all of the ones in existence.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;908020Do you think, in general, Pathfinder players (past and current) may have found their sci-fi RPG by now? Or that they are more interested in fantasy (always have been, always will be), and so sci-fi RPGs (even Starfinder) will always be a non-interest of theirs?
I hope you (and I) are wrong about Starfinder winning the Sci-FI RPG popularity contest. But the local gaming community does little to diminish my pessimism on this topic.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;908020Do you think, in general, Pathfinder players (past and current) may have found their sci-fi RPG by now? Or that they are more interested in fantasy (always have been, always will be), and so sci-fi RPGs (even Starfinder) will always be a non-interest of theirs?
I think most PF players don't give a damn about SF. Also, most players of various SF RPGs don't really give a flying fuck about Pathfinder.
I'm not saying that they'll all actively avoid playing Starfinder, but it looks to me like a solution in search of a problem that nobody really has.
Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;908154I think most PF players don't give a damn about SF. Also, most players of various SF RPGs don't really give a flying fuck about Pathfinder.
I'm not saying that they'll all actively avoid playing Starfinder, but it looks to me like a solution in search of a problem that nobody really has.
I'm guessing that current sci-fi RPGers, that don't care about Pathfinder, will also not care about Starfinder. So Starfinder could end up being a game targeted just at current Pathfinder customers. The Pathfinder GMs will probably have some influence whether or not their group's players buy into the Starfinder product line or not. Some RPGs basically come down to GMs willing to run games of them for copies to even be sold. I often see only GMs buying RPGs. They have to have the games, of course. A player has to make a bigger leap, when buying an RPG, if they want to GM a game, and they've never GMed before.
Who cares about Starfinder, it's all about Starjammer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/starjammer)!
Quote from: CRKrueger;908188Who cares about Starfinder, it's all about Starjammer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/starjammer)!
Plebeians, plebeians everywhere (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/166518/Bulldogs-Fate-Core-Edition). :D
Quote from: JesterRaiin;908190Plebeians, plebeians everywhere (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/166518/Bulldogs-Fate-Core-Edition). :D
That's FATE. I like Roleplaying Games. :D
Quote from: CRKrueger;908230That's FATE. I like Roleplaying Games. :D
HA! HA! HA!
You fell into my trap, Lemmy, allowed your vision to be clouded by your anger and didn't dig deeper, where true treasure was buried!
Now your soul is mine!
HA HA HA!
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/94493/Bulldogs-d20-Edition
;)
Given that Starfinder is basically not actually SF but Space Fantasy I am inclined to disagree. People who love Eclipse Phase are totally not going to grokk whatever Starfinder is offering.
But I think it is safe to say that the percentage of Pathfinder fans who want SciFi Golarion with elves and orcs in Space will be happy.....but people into Traveller, Eclipse Phase, and other "real" SF systems? Only if Starfinder also lets you back out the fantasy trappings.
Quote from: camazotz;908257Given that Starfinder is basically not actually SF but Space Fantasy I am inclined to disagree. People who love Eclipse Phase are totally not going to grokk whatever Starfinder is offering.
But I think it is safe to say that the percentage of Pathfinder fans who want SciFi Golarion with elves and orcs in Space will be happy.....but people into Traveller, Eclipse Phase, and other "real" SF systems? Only if Starfinder also lets you back out the fantasy trappings.
Hard Science for Starfinder will be a hardcover full color glossy tome from Paizo that sells for $75.
Or they can just buy the Traveller d20 CD-ROM from Far Future Enterprises. (http://www.farfuture.net/Traveller20%20Contents.pdf)
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;908059I don't recall saying all OGL RPGs. A lot of them have their own settings. My favorite of the bunch being Dark Albion.
Thanks for that!
The fact is that the OSR is hugely popular right now; and that means that like any other time something in the hobby gets popular there's going to be a lot of stuff that isn't that great. But there's also a ton of stuff that is truly innovative and where the setting really comes through.
Stars without Number will be getting a second edition soon. I have the first and it's my go to Sci fi game.
Quote from: Orphan81;909420Stars without Number will be getting a second edition soon.
Why? Not that SWN isn't cool and all, but do we need this? Do we need an OSR treadmill? Just a thought that floats into my head.
Quote from: Ronin;909607Why? Not that SWN isn't cool and all, but do we need this? Do we need an OSR treadmill? Just a thought that floats into my head.
Usually has to do with updating licensing for future game writers that have wanted to produce splat books for a core book.
So Paizo is just rehashing Dragonstar? Yawn. At least Spelljammer was interesting because it used fantasy physics.
Next I expect they'll do a rehash of Planescape called Planefinder, where all creature types except outsider have been deleted from the monster rules, every spell with "[verb] animal" or "[verb] person" in its name has been deleted from the spell lists, all classes with animal companions or familiars are gone because there are no animals on the planes, and the only playable races are planetouched who will pop back to the material plane if you cast banishment on them.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;909800So Paizo is just rehashing Dragonstar? Yawn. At least Spelljammer was interesting because it used fantasy physics.
Next I expect they'll do a rehash of Planescape called Planefinder, where all creature types except outsider have been deleted from the monster rules, every spell with "[verb] animal" or "[verb] person" in its name has been deleted from the spell lists, all classes with animal companions or familiars are gone because there are no animals on the planes, and the only playable races are planetouched who will pop back to the material plane if you cast banishment on them.
I would gladly buy a PF version of Dragonstar. But it never happened. So I'll buy Starfinder instead. I never much cared for Planescape.
Quote from: Tetsubo;909861I would gladly buy a PF version of Dragonstar. But it never happened. So I'll buy Starfinder instead. I never much cared for Planescape.
I don't like it because it uses generic scifi technology alongside generic D&D magic. I would prefer Eberron-style magical technology and Spelljammer-esque fantasy space physics. Then again I also think Path of War and Spheres of Power are the only balanced way to play, so clearly something must be wrong with me.
I think my real problem is that uncreative and nonsensical settings bore me. Golarion is deeply uncreative and feels more like a theme park than a living world. Generic science fiction with magic tacked on is even sillier.
Quote from: Ronin;909607Why? Not that SWN isn't cool and all, but do we need this? Do we need an OSR treadmill? Just a thought that floats into my head.
From everything I have heard, it is a revision, not a new edition. It's just going to clean up the layout (as it was Kevin Crawford's first book) and add in some things from the supplements. Given that the game is meant to be compatible with other OSR products, I can't see anything being done that will create compatibility issues.
Quote from: Baulderstone;909910From everything I have heard, it is a revision, not a new edition. It's just going to clean up the layout (as it was Kevin Crawford's first book) and add in some things from the supplements. Given that the game is meant to be compatible with other OSR products, I can't see anything being done that will create compatibility issues.
OK, that makes sense. Revised, doesnt sound the treadmill alarm bells in my head like 2nd edition.