TheRPGSite

I will never stop playing Pathfinder I am probably never going to buy anything new from them ever again. Apologizing for an upcoming Adventure Path where players run characters in the city watch. All because players are running the fantasy version of the police. They never apologized for making an Adventure Path where players can run and are encouraged to be as evil as can be. Nor  apologize where players are supposed to be like Pirates and also do evil things. Decided it was a good thing to include the Pathfinder version of Pennywise the Clown in their setting. Yet to virtue signal and more likely sales they have to apologize for players being members of the City Watch. That is not at all insulting to members of the hobby who have parents, friends and family who are in the force or law enforcement in general. Don't take my word for it is on their Agents of Edgewatch Update on the Paizo blog and I am not putting a link to it as I no longer want to give them any kind of traffic or support in sales.

Which also reveals the sheer hypocrisy of members in the hobby because they are all offended by playing members of the city watch or any kind of fantasy law enforcement . Yet were and are fine playing evil as can be player characters, pirates with very lose morals. Man I am sometimes embarrassed being a gamer in the hobby lately. Even then it's not the nature of the apology it's the fact that it is the most pathetic abject grovelling I have seen to date from an rpg company. It comes off as a low level mafia flunky having to apologize for a major screw-up to the godfather.

Here's the statement: https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6sh9r?Agents-of-Edgewatch-Update

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1135991Here's the statement: https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6sh9r?Agents-of-Edgewatch-Update

Thank you IS because I am flabbergasted at the sheer hypocrisy of the statement as well as the opportunistic timing and virtue signalling of the entire statement. Nor willing to give them anymore traffic at least at this time.

They came out with an AP where players run evil characters, the more evil the better. Pirates and were are not talking the kind from the Pirates of the Caribbean movies much worse to the point they make the movie versions look like Paladins. Where the players guide for Skull and Shackles flat out says Paladins will not work in the AP. No apology yet playing Fantasy police in AP is problematic. They just went full retard imo.

QuoteBut there's more to it than that. What I hadn't realized--no doubt a result of my own privilege--is that the very concept of police, the idea of in fact taking on the role of police, makes some members of the Paizo community deeply uncomfortable, no matter how deftly we might try to pull off the execution.

So just don't play the fucking adventure then?

Quote from: Snark Knight;1135993So just don't play the fucking adventure then?

Seconded. Apparently doing one job as an editor and publisher is being "privileged" .

Not to mention the so called members of the community who are uncomfortable playing the police in an AP sure as hell had no problems playing evil characters and amoral pirates.

If Erik Mona is so ashamed of having police protect people then I hope the next time he needs that protection. It never comes.

Just in case they latter want to memory hole it

http://archive.is/tUSdC (http://archive.is/tUSdC)

GunMetal Games just did this for Interface Zero 3.0 too. Very disappointing.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/76/df/87/76df87e05e6520478e1d8ed5d398fe76.gif)

That post is just plain idiotic. Places have laws, someone gets to do the enforcing to make them mean something.

I would very much like to know if there are specific people or this is just made up virtue bollocks.

"Erik Mona, Gross Stupidity in a built up area, 6 month, creep!"

***Edit, having read the forum post it would appear that there are. I do not understand how playing pirates, murderhoboes and slavers is fine but city watch isn't***

One commentator at least responded reasonably:

QuoteThis whole thing strikes me a little ridiculous. In Hell's Vengeance, you play as murderers, slavers, and worse. It's an entire adventure path devoted to playing as real bad guys. If that's not your cup of tea, which I completely understand, all you have to do is not play it. But now Paizo is apologizing for creating an adventure path where you can play as fantasy world police?

If people want to view the police as "the bad guys" in society, a point of view I vehemently disagree with, that's their choice. If they don't want to play the adventure path, nobody is going to make them do so. But neither should Paizo apologize for allowing players to play as law enforcement in a fantasy world. I think that's an incredibly cool concept. Miami Vice in Golarian! What could be more fun?

Is this what the next 20 years of our lives is going to be like? Endless apologies for fear that your creative vision might not make everyone feel included? Think of all the great works of art that have espoused a point of view that offends people. No more Mark Twain, J.D. Salinger, Quentin Tarantino, or Stanley Kubrick. All too problematic! Maybe we should add Lawful alignments to the list of prohibited alignments in Organized Play lest people think respect for order is an acceptable position.

Erik, I have nothing but the deepest respect for what you and the other hard-working people at Paizo create. I don't think you should apologize for the good work that you do and that they do simply because some people can't or won't identify with law enforcement as protagonists.

And of course the usual policing, heh, of comments occurs:

   

QuoteRemoved some posts and their replies.

    This blog is meant to address an issue which is important to many members of our community. Paizo has already made a statement to stand in solidarity with individuals who have reason to be concerned about the themes in Agents of Edgewatch. Debating about whether this statement is necessary, or questioning the feelings of those who it speaks to, is harmfully dismissive to those community members. For the health of the discussion, I feel we should steer away from putting the question of value on people's concerns or whether the statement was necessary. This statement exists because we feel it was worth it to address these concerns. Please share this level of respect with everyone in the community.

To which another comment replied:

QuoteDescribing speech as "harmful" in this context is, in my view, irresponsible. Raising questions is not harmful, nor is disagreeing with a decision. Such reasoning could be used to justify censorship of any view for any reason. We appear to be moving towards a society where certain segments of the population believe that speech is violence and silence is violence, leaving the only acceptable form of expression unthinking echoing of groupthink dogma. Truth and goodness shall be defined by popular vote. Please do not take actions that exacerbate this silencing of dissenting voices.

Obviously, I can't speak as to whether the voices you silenced were respectful because I can't see the comments you deleted but if the only reasoning for silencing these voices is that they disagreed with the decision to apologize for creating content that allowed adventurers to pretend to be law enforcement, then I do not believe the silencing of those opinions was warranted.

Quote from: tenbones;1136011GunMetal Games just did this for Interface Zero 3.0 too. Very disappointing.

Man, that's a huge bummer. I was looking forward to that.

It has gotten to the point where people need to stand up and say fuck you, and not do it quietly. I'm not saying all cops are good or right or anything like that, but where's the nuance in anything anymore

Quote from: sureshot;1135989I will never stop playing Pathfinder I am probably never going to buy anything new from them ever again. Apologizing for an upcoming Adventure Path where players run characters in the city watch. All because players are running the fantasy version of the police. They never apologized for making an Adventure Path where players can run and are encouraged to be as evil as can be. Nor  apologize where players are supposed to be like Pirates and also do evil things. Decided it was a good thing to include the Pathfinder version of Pennywise the Clown in their setting. Yet to virtue signal and more likely sales they have to apologize for players being members of the City Watch. That is not at all insulting to members of the hobby who have parents, friends and family who are in the force or law enforcement in general. Don't take my word for it is on their Agents of Edgewatch Update on the Paizo blog and I am not putting a link to it as I no longer want to give them any kind of traffic or support in sales.

Which also reveals the sheer hypocrisy of members in the hobby because they are all offended by playing members of the city watch or any kind of fantasy law enforcement . Yet were and are fine playing evil as can be player characters, pirates with very lose morals. Man I am sometimes embarrassed being a gamer in the hobby lately. Even then it's not the nature of the apology it's the fact that it is the most pathetic abject grovelling I have seen to date from an rpg company. It comes off as a low level mafia flunky having to apologize for a major screw-up to the godfather.

Thank the Lord.  I am a refugee posting for the first time here after leaving another forum which would not have allowed this common sense assessment to go unchecked.  The pile on from posters is one thing.  But overactive ideological moderation is too much.  Thank God for feee speech.

We also apparently have evil drow either....

I want these corporate tools to make a good product and leave their political posturing out of it.

Quote from: ZetaRidley;1136025It has gotten to the point where people need to stand up and say fuck you, and not do it quietly. I'm not saying all cops are good or right or anything like that, but where's the nuance in anything anymore

Most people don't want to lose their jobs because hundreds of screaming morons flooded their workplace's HR department and social media with complaints about them literally employing Hitler.

Quote from: Snark Knight;1136029Most people don't want to lose their jobs because hundreds of screaming morons flooded their workplace's HR department with complaints about them literally employing Hitler.

And so the silent majority goes silently into the gulag.

Maybe Pundit can do a video on this as Paizo bulldog should be known and heard far and wide.

I suppose from now on my recruitment for players needs to include a warning that evil races are evil with good version being exceptions to the rule. That element of the campaign is non-negotiable or up for any kind of Debate.

I wonder if they realize let alone care of the dangerous precedent it now causes them as a company. If they have to grovel once they will have to do it again.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1136031And so the silent majority goes silently into the gulag.

Exactly this. Eventually, there comes a point if people say enough is enough they can't cancel everyone.

What's funny is that it could be a useful teaching moment, but of course Paizo blows it.

'Police forces' back in the day consisted of whatever pack of kneebreakers worked for the local powers-that-be. Punishments could be doled out on the spot (beatings, etc). Hell, in prisons you had NO amenities or even basics -- your family had to bring it to you and hope the wardens didn't steal too much.

Oh well, fuck Paizo if they're going to be this damn stupid.

Quote from: ZetaRidley;1136034Exactly this. Eventually, there comes a point if people say enough is enough they can't cancel everyone.

The case is that its death by a thousand papercuts. What's vital is preservation of a reference point and history so people can understand how much they lost.
That's why leftists NEED to re-write history.

Everybody becomes a conservative at one point or another.

At this point, I think it's time for someone to make an intentionally "problematic" RPG and do so in a way that makes it easier to market.

RPG's are a lot more decentralized and with a lower bar of entry outside of WOTC and Paizo, so I think it's going to be a lot easier to take back from the SJW's, especially once the 5E fad crashes and burns as it will eventually do.

I think we need a truly immoralist game that embraces the edge, but also isn't a pathetic "dirty Mad Libs" joke of a game like FATAL or Black Tokyo.

We need an immoralist game that is actually a good game with a good setting, one that is inherently anti-woke, anti-postmodernist, anti-punk culture, and anti-Marxist and also not fully compatible with Judeo-Christian and Islamic morality either (but also isn't explicitly vehemently opposed to the Abrahamics as it is to the Marxists and the punks)

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1136043At this point, I think it's time for someone to make an intentionally "problematic" RPG and do so in a way that makes it easier to market.

I know this ties into your idea of 'fixing the world with edge' but it won't work at all and is a massively bad idea. This is all a larp in your head where you think if you piss off SJWs enough that will fix things.
But it won't at all. Because SJWs love being edgy. They love random violence, general misery, gore, mind control, torture. All that jazz. They just cast themselves as the heroes within it as long as all the edge is for 'Social Justice' IE: The gays, women, trannies and the flavor of the month (Hispanics or blacks).

You can't 'win back edge' from SJWs because they made it. Proto-SJWs made edge culture to get at their dads with their 'outdated morality and culture MAAAAN' and then the kids of those things just furthered it further by pushing back at the idea of reality even being a thing with objective boundaries.

Edgelord culture was always going to fall to SJW-ism because it appeals to the same sort of person.

Has the current level of collective mental breakdown been given an official clinical term yet?

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136044I know this ties into your idea of 'fixing the world with edge' but it won't work at all and is a massively bad idea. This is all a larp in your head where you think if you piss off SJWs enough that will fix things.
But it won't at all. Because SJWs love being edgy. They love random violence, general misery, gore, mind control, torture. All that jazz. They just cast themselves as the heroes within it as long as all the edge is for 'Social Justice' IE: The gays, women, trannies and the flavor of the month (Hispanics or blacks).

You can't 'win back edge' from SJWs because they made it. Proto-SJWs made edge culture to get at their dads with their 'outdated morality and culture MAAAAN' and then the kids of those things just furthered it further by pushing back at the idea of reality even being a thing with objective boundaries.

Edgelord culture was always going to fall to SJW-ism because it appeals to the same sort of person.

SJW's hate edge at its very core and remember that they only used as a means to end to defeat their previous enemies.

You're a moralist and you just hate the fact that the SJW's are doing to the Christians and Jews what your side did to old Pagan Europe many centuries ago.

SJWism is basically just an atheistic version of totalitarian Abrahamic morality at its very core.

They only hate Yahweh because they ain't Yahweh. That's it.

I support edge culture because it's a potent weapon against both Judeo-Christian morality and SJW morality. The Left used edge to defeat the Yahwehists, and we can use it to defeat the SJW's. You have to admit that or you're just as bad as them


The world is doomed and we're heading for a grand Malthusian catastrophe anyway, and Yahweh won't save you from it.

The West could've prevented this millennia ago, but we threw it all away to chase false hopes and submit to evil false morals.

The world is damned unless we renounce moralism of any stripe and return to paganism and colonialism.

Quote from: sureshot;1135989I will never stop playing Pathfinder

You may want to reconsider your stance.

Even if you never purchase more product from Paizo, by playing Paizo games - especially as a GM - you are putting Paizo in a prominent place at your game table and reinforcing the Paizo brand - consciously or subconsciously - to your players. If you play or run Paizo games at conventions or FLGS events, you are promoting the Paizo brand to your local gaming community - even if you're running PF1e.

Please understand that I don't like this idea either.

For decades, I have preached the concept of separating CREATOR from CREATION. AKA, you can enjoy HP Lovecraft's stories and not condone his racism, or you can enjoy Paizo's games and not condone their woke stupidity. However, the current climate in the culture war has made me reconsider my stance.

Everything today is becoming a "badge of allegiance", aka our purchase choices now signal the side we wish to win the culture war because brands have clearly chosen sides. Our promotion of a brand equates to promotion of the brand's ideological stance. If we play WotC, Green Ronin, or Paizo games, we thus signal support for Leftist dominance.

As others have pointed out "nuance" is gone from the conversation. If we like X, buy X, play X, and thus promote X, then to the world at large, we clearly support the politics of X.
 
Please note that I ABSOLUTELY FUCKING HATE THIS because I don't want to police all my entertainment choices or my recommendations or my posts from a decade ago for wrongthink. But what's option B in the face of cultural collapse to the SJW mob?

Perhaps a Pathfinder clone exists...or soon will.

Quote from: Warpiglet;1136027I am a refugee posting for the first time here after leaving another forum which would not have allowed this common sense assessment to go unchecked.

Welcome aboard Warpiglet!! Welcome to the Mos Eisley of gaming forums, the home of the RPG community's most wretched scum and villainy!

Start a thread about your favorite games!

Quote from: Snark Knight;1136029Most people don't want to lose their jobs because hundreds of screaming morons flooded their workplace's HR department and social media with complaints about them literally employing Hitler.

This is true.

Yet another good reason to own your own business or work in a small company which doesn't have HR monkeys. The federal laws that empower the HR asshats don't kick in until you have 15 employees. And I believe freelancers and contractors don't count (although the laws on that may vary state to state now)
https://www.eeoc.gov/employers/small-business/small-business-requirements

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1136031And so the silent majority goes silently into the gulag.

This is also true.
 
But who wants to lose their job during a recession? Good jobs are getting scarce fast.

Quote from: ZetaRidley;1136034Exactly this. Eventually, there comes a point if people say enough is enough they can't cancel everyone.

Maybe, maybe not.

However, the Leftists have noticed the business owners and non-SJW residents in Seattle do nothing but quietly grumble, make posts, send letters and emails, but don't storm the Mayor's office demanding action.  Same with all the communities where our history is being torn down.

Even cops have abandoned their brotherhood (and their own reputations) to stay silent to protect their cushy pensions.

The problem is Spinachcat it's easier said then done as I have all the 1E hardcovers and in my area that version is still pretty popular. As I said it's not the apology (which imo was not needed). It's the sheer embarrassing level of grovelling from Erik Mona. WTF did he have his balls cut off or something. So until their is a loss of interest in PF 1E as an rpg I am kind of stuck with it.

What is equally sickening is the sheer level of butkissing and hypocrisy from posters in the thread. They had no issues with playing amoral pirates yet "suddenly" uncomfortable playing police. What a load of pure bullshit. Police = bad and problamatic yet Paizo Ogres which are a cross between the hillbillies from Deliverance crossed with the hills have eyes cranked to a factor of ten are neither.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1136048You may want to reconsider your stance.

Even if you never purchase more product from Paizo, by playing Paizo games - especially as a GM - you are putting Paizo in a prominent place at your game table and reinforcing the Paizo brand - consciously or subconsciously - to your players. If you play or run Paizo games at conventions or FLGS events, you are promoting the Paizo brand to your local gaming community - even if you're running PF1e.

Please understand that I don't like this idea either.

For decades, I have preached the concept of separating CREATOR from CREATION. AKA, you can enjoy HP Lovecraft's stories and not condone his racism, or you can enjoy Paizo's games and not condone their woke stupidity. However, the current climate in the culture war has made me reconsider my stance.

Everything today is becoming a "badge of allegiance", aka our purchase choices now signal the side we wish to win the culture war because brands have clearly chosen sides. Our promotion of a brand equates to promotion of the brand's ideological stance. If we play WotC, Green Ronin, or Paizo games, we thus signal support for Leftist dominance.

As others have pointed out "nuance" is gone from the conversation. If we like X, buy X, play X, and thus promote X, then to the world at large, we clearly support the politics of X.
 
Please note that I ABSOLUTELY FUCKING HATE THIS because I don't want to police all my entertainment choices or my recommendations or my posts from a decade ago for wrongthink. But what's option B in the face of cultural collapse to the SJW mob?

Preach!

I fully agree that abandoning a favorite RPG is easier said than done, especially if its a favorite of your players. Taking a stand is never easy and always has consequences. However, not taking a stand may appear easy, but also has consequences - perhaps worse consequences depending on how the unknown future plays out.

Erik Mona is a Leftist and Paizo exists to promote Leftist propaganda through gaming. It's no surprise his vocal fanbase are primarily fellow Leftists. This isn't new.  

In Leftist ideology, there's nothing wrong with playing amoral villains, but plenty wrong with playing peacekeepers. Mona and Paizo are only staying true to their ideology. They aren't compromising their values.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1136055I fully agree that abandoning a favorite RPG is easier said than done, especially if its a favorite of your players. Taking a stand is never easy and always has consequences. However, not taking a stand may appear easy, but also has consequences - perhaps worse consequences depending on how the unknown future plays out.

Erik Mona is a Leftist and Paizo exists to promote Leftist propaganda through gaming. It's no surprise his vocal fanbase are primarily fellow Leftists. This isn't new.  

In Leftist ideology, there's nothing wrong with playing amoral villains, but plenty wrong with playing peacekeepers. Mona and Paizo are only staying true to their ideology. They aren't compromising their values.

I heartily agree.  And the most annoying part of this to me, primarily a D&D player is the lack of choice.  WOTC is every bit as political and instead of merely changing a module are changing long-standing lore and GAME MECHANICS! To pacify the pearl clutching social engineers!

On some forums, even saying this gets you a warning and hence my presence here after nearly a decade elsewhere.

If the silent and cowed majority? Significant minority? All wrote to them about their displeasure would that help?

I am hundreds of dollars in---books, minis and supplements but not a penny more until these neo-Marxists figure it out.  I don't care who you vote for or who you date or who you worship...just stop jacking around with my hobby!  Now it's personal.

Uh, hold up. Don't "take a stand" by disavowing certain games you enjoy playing because you disagree with the political views of the authors. Play the games that you have fun playing or, as is sometimes the case unfortunately, the games that you dislike the least that you can get other people to play with you.

What is being touted here as "the only solution" to this strife between progressive and conservative (or however you want to phrase it) RPG players is only furthering the strife. It is a bad idea, and dumb, and not going to do any good for anyone. Just chill, play the games you like, and spend about as much energy thinking about all this crap as you do about which clothes you're going to wear today. Because, by the way, the latter is more important.

Quote from: Warpiglet;1136057And the most annoying part of this to me, primarily a D&D player is the lack of choice.

Except that you live in the Golden Age of RPGs with tremendous choice.

There are literally HUNDREDS of fantasy RPGs (many quite excellent) both new and old to choose from. There are dozens of FREE rpgs sitting on DriveThruRPG that you can read entirely and play before spending a dime on the book. There are dozens of small press publishers making fun games. There are dozens of games from the past which are tremendous fun to revisit.

There is NO reason to play anything from WotC unless you choose to support them.

And I agree.  But what I am NOT going to do is buy any crap that promotes political garbage.  I am voting with my dollars but not giving up the ship.

My buddy thinks this will be cyclical and die down.  I think he too optimistic, dunno.  Glad however to be able to 'publicly' be angry here.  My third post and I have not been kicked out so there is that...

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1136012(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/76/df/87/76df87e05e6520478e1d8ed5d398fe76.gif)

Greetings!

*Laughing* Ahh, Ratman. Fucking HILARIOUS! I know, the whole editorial "apology" Geesus. Erik Mona is so fucking choking on sucking up to the morons. So concerned about making anyone feel "uncomfortable". Gaaahhh! Yeah, pour bleach into my eyes, my friend!:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1136046SJW's hate edge at its very core.

You say that with no evidence to back that up.

QuoteYou're a moralist and you just hate the fact that the SJW's are doing to the Christians and Jews what your side did to old Pagan Europe many centuries ago.

I come from an eastern European post-USSR background so please don't put words in my mouth. I very politely didn't bring your religious beliefs into this, and I still won't do it.
I hate what the SJWs are doing from a level of what Communists did in Eastern Europe. And I'm telling you that what worked to bring into the existence of the USSR was not what ended it.

And as for the most mainstream 'problematic' product on the tabletop market today? Warhammer 40K.

Quote from: Trinculoisdead;1136060Uh, hold up. Don't "take a stand" by disavowing certain games you enjoy playing because you disagree with the political views of the authors. Play the games that you have fun playing or, as is sometimes the case unfortunately, the games that you dislike the least that you can get other people to play with you.

What is being touted here as "the only solution" to this strife between progressive and conservative (or however you want to phrase it) RPG players is only furthering the strife. It is a bad idea, and dumb, and not going to do any good for anyone. Just chill, play the games you like, and spend about as much energy thinking about all this crap as you do about which clothes you're going to wear today. Because, by the way, the latter is more important.

What amuses me is that the product is already going to be published. Anyone boycotting this adventure path would be boycotting based on an online statement from the company, and not the content of the product itself.
Which has my tinfoil hat wiggling. Paizo puts out a "problematic" product, apologizes over it, and still gets to sell it and make money. Very convenient.

Anywhoodle. You say this isn't important. But as consumers we have our opinions. Here at therpgsite, we can voice them. This kind of colonization of the industry frankly honks me off. They take tiny steps and then sprint for the finish line. I don't want more products yarking about how "progressive and inclusive" they are. The words are toxic now. And I really don't blame anyone who wants to boycott this crap in a preemtive move to let the companies know we don't like it.
If they insist on being jackasses, and the product turns into a progressive mush of offensive inoffensiveness, we can say "We told you so".

Looks like Erik Mona and Paizo have gone full Fred Hicks and Evil Hat.

They are not going to cancel the product because they will lose profit. Yet suddenly grow a conscience and apologize for the material in it.

Quote from: tenbones;1136011GunMetal Games just did this for Interface Zero 3.0 too. Very disappointing.

  LOL, I should have nabbed that copy of 2.0 the other day after all.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136065You say that with no evidence to back that up.



I come from an eastern European post-USSR background so please don't put words in my mouth. I very politely didn't bring your religious beliefs into this, and I still won't do it.
I hate what the SJWs are doing from a level of what Communists did in Eastern Europe. And I'm telling you that what worked to bring into the existence of the USSR was not what ended it.

And as for the most mainstream 'problematic' product on the tabletop market today? Warhammer 40K.

"Edgy" culture did not bring the USSR to power. WWI did.

Lenin could not have taken over Russia were it not for the huge clusterfuck of World War I and how it hit the Russian Empire very hard economically and militarily.

Also, Warhammer 40K is not "problematic" enough for today's cultural war in my eyes. It's the cultural equivalent of putting a small band-aid on a gunshot wound.

Warhammer 40k is for sure problematic as hell for today's culture war.  Given they have a couple RPGs cycling around, it will be MUCH more problematic if they catch traction with the RPG crowds.  War game crowds seem a whole lot more involved in maximizing mathematical advantages first and everything else is in a distant line from that. I can appreciate spending energy on it may not change much, but it tends to help to relieve pressure in my opinion.  

    I just read Bad Robot's "Guide to Dismantling White Supremacy at Work" and oh boy.....If a big name, powerful media company like that is going to go balls out marxist propaganda, I do not see any way for the big rpg companies to not follow suit, or worse try to get ahead of Bad Robot (which IMO would be impossible because they have gone as far as you can get).

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1136076"Edgy" culture did not bring the USSR to power. WWI did.

There where many factions vying for control of the Russian Empire. This destabilization happened even before WWI. But there were reasons why the communists won in the end and understanding propaganda was perhaps one of the most vital for them, including removing enemy institutions like the church. The fact you don't know or ignore this tells me we won't make any progress and I end the conversation.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1136004Just in case they latter want to memory hole it

http://archive.is/tUSdC (http://archive.is/tUSdC)

^Should be standard procedure when not wanting to give traffic to a site.

Also...

QuoteWhen we began work early last year on Agents of Edgewatch, we conceived of the adventures as a pseudo-Victorian crime drama in which a party of Sherlock Holmeses would bring a cult of sinister murderers to justice against the backdrop of a World's Fair-style celebration in Absalom, the huge city at the center of the Pathfinder world. Along the way, we'd dabble in some buddy cop movie tropes and use the players' role as new and idealistic town guards as a framing device for a tour of the city as they attempt to thwart the evil cult's machinations.

In our heads, this was a classic detective story, not a chance for players to act out power fantasies of being militarized police officers oppressing citizens. As publisher, I was confident that we could steer well clear of egregious parallels to modern police violence and handle the material responsibly.

But there's more to it than that...

SWEET BABY JESUS ON A BLANKET! These people! WTF?

What da hell is it with people's inability to separate contemporary politics and literary tropes? Why do they feel the need to fit their political soapbox into everything and look at it through a strictly modern and politically biased lens? We can no longer run a buddy cop crime adventure without people tripping over themselves to apologize for political shit that doesn't need to have any place or relation to these stories.

This hyper-moralistic and pampering mindset! Always trying to find faults with everything that supposedly makes people "UnCoNfOrTaBlE" and we have to protect them from it in the hopes of thwarting off some sort of "pernicious" effect that will somehow find its way from a Pathfinder adventure to the glorification of militarized police violence.

For those who are triggered by playing local law enforcement subject to rules and regulations, Paizo instead provides the opportunity to instead to play a party of vigilantes to lynch the baddies.
One can only laugh at their mental illness.

Not just vigalantes, but those who act in the name of the local power structure, and KILL, not imprison the wrong doers, as well as taking all their stuff and in the case of many creatures Genocide whole tribes of them..  They are like private contractor SWAT teams compared to police.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1136035What's funny is that it could be a useful teaching moment, but of course Paizo blows it.

'Police forces' back in the day consisted of whatever pack of kneebreakers worked for the local powers-that-be. Punishments could be doled out on the spot (beatings, etc). Hell, in prisons you had NO amenities or even basics -- your family had to bring it to you and hope the wardens didn't steal too much.

Back a bit further they could be worse, no prisons just quick and nasty punishments (nose and ears cut off for poaching for instance). Somehow, lots of people don't grasp that and treat fantasy watches like modern police not the enforcers for the local sherrif / lord / bigwig.

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1135991Here's the statement: https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6sh9r?Agents-of-Edgewatch-Update

Gender Identities???
In fantasy roleplaying, if someone wants to play a character who's gender is the opposite of himself, then he simply writes "female" on his character sheet or writes "male" on her character sheet if she is female. I don't know what the big deal is.

So Paizo don't like cops? So who are they going to call if someone sells pirated copies of their copyrighted books, are they going to call the cops? How do they expect to make money if no one is enforcing their copyrights, if there aren't any cops to make the arrest because someone defunded them?

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136079There where many factions vying for control of the Russian Empire. This destabilization happened even before WWI. But there were reasons why the communists won in the end and understanding propaganda was perhaps one of the most vital for them, including removing enemy institutions like the church. The fact you don't know or ignore this tells me we won't make any progress and I end the conversation.

I do know this and the communists won because of the one-two punch of effective propaganda AND the chaos of WWI finally removing any and all limits the various factions vying for control in Russia may have had.

Why should we support the church?

From my perspective, they are just as bad as the commies but from a different angle.

And why can't we use effective propaganda tactics to combat the Marxists? Why must we hold ourselves to the chains of morality when they clearly won't?

Taking the moral high ground only works when your opponent plays by the same rules. But they don't and neither should we.

Beat them at their own game, don't bind yourself needlessly.

We need to use edge culture and effective propaganda to fight back if we want to destroy the SJW Left. Sic Semper Tyrannis!

I know everyone here thinks EnWorld has gone down some leftist hole or something, but y'all should check out the thread on this topic over there (https://www.enworld.org/threads/paizo-apologises-for-police-themed-adventure-path.672858/). The majority of posts were "Damn, this is some stupid stuff right here".  There were some differing opinions, but the average response was "This seems over the top."

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1136086Why should we support the church?

I don't know who the 'we' are in this case. In the sense that the Czar was an oppressive bastard but tearing him down only made the situation worse.

QuoteSic Semper Tyrannis!

You yourself are tyrannical in nature, find yourself empathizing with tyrants and want extreme authoritarian control over others, and relish a style of government many times more tyrannical and authoritarian then what we have today or even what the SJWs want to implement. I find your calls to anti-authoritarianism to be extremely disingenuous. You literally call for amorality. Unless its subjectivism word games.

Quote from: DocJones;1136081For those who are triggered by playing local law enforcement subject to rules and regulations, Paizo instead provides the opportunity to instead to play a party of vigilantes to lynch the baddies.
One can only laugh at their mental illness.

And that's usually the unique challenge of law enforcement themed campaigns, where you're expected to work within the bounds of the law - whether that be the 21st century or a fantasy city - unlike murder hobo vigilantes who rarely have to worry about being accountable to anyone but themselves. PC law enforcement are far more likely to be unambiguously heroic, or at least far less corrupt than the average adventurer's watch/guard who're so useless they need the adventurers in the first place or are in-bed with the antagonists.

I will admit that I am one of the more vociferous Paizo supporters here at therpgsite.

And I will also admit that I was looking forward to playing the Agents of Edgewater adventure path.

That being said, this is a step too far.

Now I have been watching the slow and then fast devolution of the Paizo staffers since the Wuhan virus sent everyone into lockdown and this has now hit peak mental retardation.

You can not come out against your own RPG adventure where you are members of the police when you have already made a RPG adventure where you are pirates and slavers.  You just can not.

So that being said, it is not me it is you.  Time for us to have a break.  Maybe play some other games for a while, see what other game designers are doing.  And maybe if you can get your shit together, clean out some of that rot eating away at your core competency, stop giving money away to people that represent the worst of society then maybe we can sit down and roll some dice again.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136079There where many factions vying for control of the Russian Empire. This destabilization happened even before WWI. But there were reasons why the communists won in the end and understanding propaganda was perhaps one of the most vital for them, including removing enemy institutions like the church. The fact you don't know or ignore this tells me we won't make any progress and I end the conversation.

The communists won in the end because they took control of the military.

Quote from: Mistwell;1136088I know everyone here thinks EnWorld has gone down some leftist hole or something, but y'all should check out the thread on this topic over there (https://www.enworld.org/threads/paizo-apologises-for-police-themed-adventure-path.672858/). The majority of posts were "Damn, this is some stupid stuff right here".  There were some differing opinions, but the average response was "This seems over the top."

And, predictably, the thread was locked down for not towing the party line.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136105I don't know who the 'we' are in this case. In the sense that the Czar was an oppressive bastard but tearing him down only made the situation worse.


You yourself are tyrannical in nature, find yourself empathizing with tyrants and want extreme authoritarian control over others, and relish a style of government many times more tyrannical and authoritarian then what we have today or even what the SJWs want to implement. I find your calls to anti-authoritarianism to be extremely disingenuous. You literally call for amorality. Unless its subjectivism word games.

>amorality
>authoritarian

Pick one

Also, I don't call for amorality.

I call for immorality. Know the difference.

Removing the Tsar from power was a mistake, and it only accelerated the long march to a Malthusian apocalypse.

Either way, I'm done having this discussion and I am bowing out of the thread.

I don't want to piss off Pundit any more than I already probably have.

Quote from: Shasarak;1136110I will admit that I am one of the more vociferous Paizo supporters here at therpgsite.

And I will also admit that I was looking forward to playing the Agents of Edgewater adventure path.

That being said, this is a step too far.

Now I have been watching the slow and then fast devolution of the Paizo staffers since the Wuhan virus sent everyone into lockdown and this has now hit peak mental retardation.

You can not come out against your own RPG adventure where you are members of the police when you have already made a RPG adventure where you are pirates and slavers.  You just can not.

So that being said, it is not me it is you.  Time for us to have a break.  Maybe play some other games for a while, see what other game designers are doing.  And maybe if you can get your shit together, clean out some of that rot eating away at your core competency, stop giving money away to people that represent the worst of society then maybe we can sit down and roll some dice again.

As someone who also loved Pathfinder 1E, I completely agree with you on this one.

Quote from: Snark Knight;1136108And that's usually the unique challenge of law enforcement themed campaigns, where you're expected to work within the bounds of the law - whether that be the 21st century or a fantasy city - unlike murder hobo vigilantes who rarely have to worry about being accountable to anyone but themselves. PC law enforcement are far more likely to be unambiguously heroic, or at least far less corrupt than the average adventurer's watch/guard who're so useless they need the adventurers in the first place or are in-bed with the antagonists.

If I GMed this Paizo AP, I'd have the baddies scream "I can't breathe" every time the PCs confronted them just to see how they'd handle it.

Quote from: Shasarak;1136112The communists won in the end because they took control of the military.

The military was fractured and was not aligned only with 1 faction. That's why there where two civil wars.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1136114>amorality
>authoritarian
Pick one faggot

You can be amoral and authoritarian easily.

QuoteAlso, I don't call for amorality.
I call for immorality. Know the difference.

Thats.....Worse. Amorality implies you simply believe in no morals. Immorality is doing things you know are wrong. As I said unless we are playing subjectivist word games.
Belief in either would make your belief in the objectionability of tyrants disingenuous.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1136115As someone who also loved Pathfinder 1E, I completely agree with you on this one.

Agreed. I liked Golarion as this anachronistic soup. Now that the adventure paths are cannon (with the endings dictated by how PAIZO wants them not the player) the end result is a much duller world.

Hmmm. Another tempest in a teacup.

This was not an apology. It was a statement. It was a "heads up, shit is heavy right now around police, when we started this we were trying to walk the line between cool idea and being sensitive, but under the circumstances it's highly likely we fucked that up. We continue to support social justice and racial equality, and we're putting our money where our mouths are. Our hope is that when/if you play this AP you aren't representing horrible brutal types, and our intent was for it to be an impetus to adventure, not some implied condoning of police brutality. We hope you'll give it a shot as intended."

A full apology would have included a retraction of the product. Hence, a statement. Not an apology.

There was no indication that Paizo was taking all APs of this subject matter off the table, only that they should have gone with another less-controversial idea in hindsight. Like "had I known that 10 brutal racists cops were going to go on killing spree in May, I would have shelved this idea for a post-police-reform time period." He is trying to walk a fine line here, which a ton of companies are doing to survive in the Age of Outrage. Pointing and Paizo as screaming "stop acting like the 2nd largest gaming company in America you shills" is pretty ignorant. No money = no company. The math is pretty simple. You may not like doing what you're told but Erik Mona is fine with it as long as his masters keep buying shit. It's a choice, not a lifestyle.

All this other nonsense you all are injecting into the conversation is simply talking points from your Red flags vs. Blue flags pamphlets.

Look at all the false dichotomies everyone is desperate to oppose on you;

• Supporting BLM means you don't support police.
• Supporting BLM means you don't support white people, or other people, or people people.
• Supporting the police means you hate black people.
• Supporting white creators means you hate black creators.
• Supporting black creators means you hate white creators.
• Supporting non-creators means you hate creators.
• People who put the TP roll serving sheets under-roll will destroy all over-roll adherents.
• Doing what you want instead of what I tell you makes you a bad person.

Common folks. We know all this is bullshit.

How can we be a bulwark against the Outrage Brigade if we become the Outrage Brigade? Relax... Erik Mona wasn't pissing in your Wheaties.

Quote from: DocJones;1136119If I GMed this Paizo AP, I'd have the baddies scream "I can't breathe" every time the PCs confronted them just to see how they'd handle it.

You are the worst human being in all of earth's history!! LOL.

That's just too funny. You could add in Golarian town criers who get the town riled up with twisted versions of everything the PCs do. Police arrest a slaver? Turns out PCs ended work opportunities for poor women and children! How dare they!

Quote from: Mistwell;1136088I know everyone here thinks EnWorld has gone down some leftist hole or something, but y'all should check out the thread on this topic over there (https://www.enworld.org/threads/paizo-apologises-for-police-themed-adventure-path.672858/). The majority of posts were "Damn, this is some stupid stuff right here".  There were some differing opinions, but the average response was "This seems over the top."

Good for them. It's getting so even the fence sitters can smell the bullshit.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136120The military was fractured and was not aligned only with 1 faction. That's why there where two civil wars.



You can be amoral and authoritarian easily.


Thats.....Worse. Amorality implies you simply believe in no morals. Immorality is doing things you know are wrong. As I said unless we are playing subjectivist word games.
Belief in either would make your belief in the objectionability of tyrants disingenuous.


Agreed. I liked Golarion as this anachronistic soup. Now that the adventure paths are cannon (with the endings dictated by how PAIZO wants them not the player) the end result is a much duller world.

Greetings!

Wow. What is the friction between Shrieking and Sammy? Imperial Russia fell to the fucking Bolsheviks for a variety of political, economic, and military factors. All of them combined became a dynamic ripe for the revolution. Despite the problems within Imperial Russia--the Bolsheviks proved to be far worse. Tens of millions of innocent people, Russians, Ukrainians, Jews, Tartars, and probably a dozen other groups--were slaughtered by the millions. Those who weren't summarily executed were sent to toil away in misery and despair in the Gulags. Communism is so fucking evil. GRRRRRR!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1136113And, predictably, the thread was locked down for not towing the party line.

I don't think that's entirely accurate - other than the party line (as a ENWorld site rule) is no politics.  I wondered if it was also before discussion turned to ENWorld's own Judge Dredd RPG.

Well, I for one am thoroughly delighted that they've made an apology... Quite right!! After all, that adventure was the cause of this whole kerfuffle. Phew! I'll sleep better knowing that tonight.

City Watch those corrupt and brutal bastards! Why 'twas only yesterday eve that I was attacked and beaten by the city watch for playing my lyre in the tavern far too loudly and in  a manner that could be considered rude. 'Tis a tough life being a fantasy bard character in the land of Boggleholm and living in the township of Cretinsville. How close it resembles our own corrupt world.

May the gods bless Paizo.

Quote from: Mistwell;1136088I know everyone here thinks EnWorld has gone down some leftist hole or something, but y'all should check out the thread on this topic over there (https://www.enworld.org/threads/paizo-apologises-for-police-themed-adventure-path.672858/). The majority of posts were "Damn, this is some stupid stuff right here".  There were some differing opinions, but the average response was "This seems over the top."

Mistwell, I left ENWorld after a long tenure as a result of recent  threads’ moderation, particularly those about orcs and drow.   I actually 'followed' you there.

I think you are being charitable to that Marxist commune.  Dissent is not tolerated.  In addition to uneven biased moderation (propaganda) I tired of their statements about the unimportance of long time older gamers to the gaming market.

I am glad to be rid of that stifling bullshit.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136120The military was fractured and was not aligned only with 1 faction. That's why there where two civil wars.


Thats.....Worse. Amorality implies you simply believe in no morals. Immorality is doing things you know are wrong. As I said unless we are playing subjectivist word games.
Belief in either would make your belief in the objectionability of tyrants disingenuous.


Agreed. I liked Golarion as this anachronistic soup. Now that the adventure paths are cannon (with the endings dictated by how PAIZO wants them not the player) the end result is a much duller world.

I know I said I was bowing out, but I think I should address these points since I'm more calmed down this time.

1. This is true. The Russian military was already divided and factionalized after 1905, and then WWI proved to be a straw that broke the camel's back

2. Possibly. I can see why complete amorality can lead to tyranny via apathy

3. To me, I am an immoralist because I believe the ends justifies the means. I support what is wrong in the eyes of the morals of the Marxists/Postmodernists and the Yahwehists as a way to call them out and oppose them.

The best way I can put this is that I believe their morality is wrong and illegitimate, even if they are the dominant mindsets, and therefore they are not objective. So I oppose and defy them because they are counter to what I believe.

I guess you could say I'm a moralist of a different sort, but I call myself as an immoralist because the two dominant forms of morality are both diametrically opposed to what I do believe and I view them as illegitimate and objectively wrong. Admittedly, the choice of words is a bit dramatic.

I'll admit, I do get a bit carried away and become very over-dramatic in how I word things and present myself a lot of the time.

4. I am glad we do agree on at least one thing in all this. Paizo used to be cool back when they were just trying to keep 3.5 alive while WOTC shat the bed with 4E. Now they've drank their own Kool-Aid on this one, and I'm never buying any books from them again.

Quote from: trechriron;1136123Hmmm. Another tempest in a teacup.

This was not an apology. It was a statement. It was a "heads up, shit is heavy right now around police, when we started this we were trying to walk the line between cool idea and being sensitive, but under the circumstances it's highly likely we fucked that up. We continue to support social justice and racial equality, and we're putting our money where our mouths are. Our hope is that when/if you play this AP you aren't representing horrible brutal types, and our intent was for it to be an impetus to adventure, not some implied condoning of police brutality. We hope you'll give it a shot as intended."

A full apology would have included a retraction of the product. Hence, a statement. Not an apology.

There was no indication that Paizo was taking all APs of this subject matter off the table, only that they should have gone with another less-controversial idea in hindsight. Like "had I known that 10 brutal racists cops were going to go on killing spree in May, I would have shelved this idea for a post-police-reform time period." He is trying to walk a fine line here, which a ton of companies are doing to survive in the Age of Outrage. Pointing and Paizo as screaming "stop acting like the 2nd largest gaming company in America you shills" is pretty ignorant. No money = no company. The math is pretty simple. You may not like doing what you're told but Erik Mona is fine with it as long as his masters keep buying shit. It's a choice, not a lifestyle.

All this other nonsense you all are injecting into the conversation is simply talking points from your Red flags vs. Blue flags pamphlets.

Look at all the false dichotomies everyone is desperate to oppose on you;

• Supporting BLM means you don't support police.
• Supporting BLM means you don't support white people, or other people, or people people.
• Supporting the police means you hate black people.
• Supporting white creators means you hate black creators.
• Supporting black creators means you hate white creators.
• Supporting non-creators means you hate creators.
• People who put the TP roll serving sheets under-roll will destroy all over-roll adherents.
• Doing what you want instead of what I tell you makes you a bad person.

Common folks. We know all this is bullshit.

How can we be a bulwark against the Outrage Brigade if we become the Outrage Brigade? Relax... Erik Mona wasn't pissing in your Wheaties.

Look at all the strawmen you've got there!

Quote from: Shasarak;1136110I will admit that I am one of the more vociferous Paizo supporters here at therpgsite.

And I will also admit that I was looking forward to playing the Agents of Edgewater adventure path.

That being said, this is a step too far.

Now I have been watching the slow and then fast devolution of the Paizo staffers since the Wuhan virus sent everyone into lockdown and this has now hit peak mental retardation.

You can not come out against your own RPG adventure where you are members of the police when you have already made a RPG adventure where you are pirates and slavers.  You just can not.

So that being said, it is not me it is you.  Time for us to have a break.  Maybe play some other games for a while, see what other game designers are doing.  And maybe if you can get your shit together, clean out some of that rot eating away at your core competency, stop giving money away to people that represent the worst of society then maybe we can sit down and roll some dice again.

Their were so many ways they could have phrased their apology not that they needed on as they sure as hell did not give any for their truly more problematic APs and other similar elements in Pathfinder.

Instead they come out put their heads on the chopping block and handed the butcher the knife to cut their throat. What gets me is their sheer lack of not understanding how bad it comes across. It's like to come off as the top virtue signalers in the rpg industry they chopped off their own balls and put them in their dice bags for fucks sake.

Quote from: trechriron;1136123Hmmm. Another tempest in a teacup.

This was not an apology. It was a statement. It was a "heads up, shit is heavy right now around police, when we started this we were trying to walk the line between cool idea and being sensitive, but under the circumstances it's highly likely we fucked that up. We continue to support social justice and racial equality, and we're putting our money where our mouths are. Our hope is that when/if you play this AP you aren't representing horrible brutal types, and our intent was for it to be an impetus to adventure, not some implied condoning of police brutality. We hope you'll give it a shot as intended."

A full apology would have included a retraction of the product. Hence, a statement. Not an apology.

There was no indication that Paizo was taking all APs of this subject matter off the table, only that they should have gone with another less-controversial idea in hindsight. Like "had I known that 10 brutal racists cops were going to go on killing spree in May, I would have shelved this idea for a post-police-reform time period." He is trying to walk a fine line here, which a ton of companies are doing to survive in the Age of Outrage. Pointing and Paizo as screaming "stop acting like the 2nd largest gaming company in America you shills" is pretty ignorant. No money = no company. The math is pretty simple. You may not like doing what you're told but Erik Mona is fine with it as long as his masters keep buying shit. It's a choice, not a lifestyle.

All this other nonsense you all are injecting into the conversation is simply talking points from your Red flags vs. Blue flags pamphlets.

Look at all the false dichotomies everyone is desperate to oppose on you;

• Supporting BLM means you don't support police.
• Supporting BLM means you don't support white people, or other people, or people people.
• Supporting the police means you hate black people.
• Supporting white creators means you hate black creators.
• Supporting black creators means you hate white creators.
• Supporting non-creators means you hate creators.
• People who put the TP roll serving sheets under-roll will destroy all over-roll adherents.
• Doing what you want instead of what I tell you makes you a bad person.

Common folks. We know all this is bullshit.

How can we be a bulwark against the Outrage Brigade if we become the Outrage Brigade? Relax... Erik Mona wasn't pissing in your Wheaties.

Besides an extra helping of Strawmen your missing the forest from the trees.

Their apology you can call it statement all you like it is a apology and a pathetic one at that. They never ever came out against any of the more problematic elements in their APs or other element. At most they gave a token apology or statement and even then in some cases they had to be shamed into doing it.  

If they wanted their apology to not come off as tokenism, opportunistic virtue signalling they should have given a general apology across the board for their evil and pirate themed APs as well as how they ruined Ogres in Pathfinder.

Then again if this was written by someone who was not a favored rpg designer you would be the first to comment on their hypocrisy.

Quote from: SHARK;1136131Communism is so fucking evil. GRRRRRR!

What people often miss is that the Tzar was also a bastard. The idea was that communisms promised freedom and retribution of the wronged groups. And it didn't happen and made it worse. Just because a group is fighting wrongness doesn't give them a magic 'get out of responsibility free' card. The worst oppressions often followed reactions to other oppression.

Because only in FANTASY can the 'Good Guys' beat 'Bad Guys' and it ends with a happy ending with no ramifications. And that's fine. That's GOOD. That's why we engage in fantasy.
So it's awful to selectively take that away to appeal to a mob.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;11361371. This is true. The Russian military was already divided and factionalized after 1905, and then WWI proved to be a straw that broke the camel's back

Pretty much. Winning wars was like the one thing the royal family could hold to its name anymore. And it effectively started sucking at its ONE JOB.

Quote2. Possibly. I can see why complete amorality can lead to tyranny via apathy

Apathy being a bad thing implies a morality to be followed. You are moral, your just not using proper definitions of words.

Quote3. To me, I am an immoralist because I believe the ends justifies the means.

So learn the definition of words. You're not an immoralist. You're a moral pragmatist or a consequentialist. This is me being somewhat snarky but it's important for conversation. If I call myself a Kaiju because I like to make my own food, I expect people to call me a liar.

QuoteThe best way I can put this is that I believe their morality is wrong and illegitimate, even if they are the dominant mindsets, and therefore they are not objective.

But they believed their ends justified their means. And their means delivered their ends. The shit thing in believing an 'Ends Justify the Means' thing and a 'The strong rule the weak and the weak don't matter' is that such beliefs undermine your own position.

In my opinion, you're trying to do the SJW thing of intersectionality and lump all the demographics you don't like under one blob to make your own morality easier to parse.

Quote4. I am glad we do agree on at least one thing in all this. Paizo used to be cool back when they were just trying to keep 3.5 alive while WOTC shat the bed with 4E. Now they've drank their own Kool-Aid on this one, and I'm never buying any books from them again.

They started really getting insular first. Their word salad for the later books got massively out of hand. With the insularity, SJW-ism followed. And I'm always glad to agree with somebody on something.

Quote from: Anselyn;1136132I don't think that's entirely accurate - other than the party line (as a ENWorld site rule) is no politics.  I wondered if it was also before discussion turned to ENWorld's own Judge Dredd RPG.

Oh damn. I didn't even think of that! "Is Judge Dredd Problematic?" should be a thread!

I don't know enough about it to do it justice.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1136137I know I said I was bowing out, but I think I should address these points since I'm more calmed down this time.

Also clean out your PM box. I can't send you a message until you do.

Quote from: sureshot;1136143Besides an extra helping of Strawmen your missing the forest from the trees. ...
Then again if this was written by someone who was not a favored rpg designer you would be the first to comment on their hypocrisy.

So, you strawman the original argument with all kinds of hyperbole taken out of context but my summary of what he actually said was a strawman? Cool. I'll take responsibility. Let me start with my sincere apologies for my strawmen, I will attempt to raid the barn less in my future responses.

Let me be more direct.

I think you are overreacting. I believe the statement was obvious pandering and an appeal to everyone to please not burn Paizo down for the potentially insensitive subject matter. Which they already made and didn't care about before May.

I also think you're being stupid about how a company the size of Paizo is supposed to skate by and not say anything. OR more hilariously that you are astonished by it.

OH, and expect it to continue until the Outrage Brigade has been defeated. Which I'm pretty sure bitching at the companies scared out of their wits will not help.

Was that better?

Quote from: trechriron;1136152I also think you're being stupid about how a company the size of Paizo is supposed to skate by and not say anything.

It would honestly be better if they did not. The outrage brigade has NEVER relented when they see fear. Not giving a shit will yield better results. The mob will get bored and move on.

Quote from: trechriron;1136152So, you strawman the original argument with all kinds of hyperbole taken out of context but my summary of what he actually said was a strawman? Cool. I'll take responsibility. Let me start with my sincere apologies for my strawmen, I will attempt to raid the barn less in my future responses.

Let me be more direct.

I think you are overreacting. I believe the statement was obvious pandering and an appeal to everyone to please not burn Paizo down for the potentially insensitive subject matter. Which they already made and didn't care about before May.

I also think you're being stupid about how a company the size of Paizo is supposed to skate by and not say anything. OR more hilariously that you are astonished by it.

OH, and expect it to continue until the Outrage Brigade has been defeated. Which I'm pretty sure bitching at the companies scared out of their wits will not help.

Was that better?

Again I don't blame them for the apology. Not that they needed to do all they wrote was an AP where okays run fantasy police as characters (the absolute horror of the thing). Look up how they ruined Ogres and then compared to that tell us we're are overreacting. You won't though because it goes against the narrative of us overreacting.

I do think abject and pathetic groveling was not the way to do. If they were truly sincere about how they felt a simple apology about all the offensive and problematic topics in Pathfinder was in order. Not simply about having to play police in an rpg. You think they murdered someone with the level of grovelling and Mia cuppa in that apology. Then again one has to also be both progressive And have zero self-respect in 2020.

Then again you don't seem interested in really discussing in good faith as it's all about ones carefully constructed personal narratives and anything and everything that goes against said narrative is to be dismissed.

Quote from: trechriron;1136152OH, and expect it to continue until the Outrage Brigade has been defeated. Which I'm pretty sure bitching at the companies scared out of their wits will not help.

They could have at least shown the courage of their convictions instead of their multi coloured belly.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136153It would honestly be better if they did not. The outrage brigade has NEVER relented when they see fear. Not giving a shit will yield better results. The mob will get bored and move on.

I am old enough to remember that time in January where I just went to the [Brand] shop to buy their products rather then to find out what they thought about [Racism]

Quote from: Shasarak;1136158They could have at least shown the courage of their convictions instead of their multi coloured belly.

Seconded.

Don't waste your time. It goes against his narrative that we are perpetually offended by everything and anything. So if you don't agree with his narrative your post is outright dismissed. Notice how all he does is come here and complain about us complaining and contributes not much else imo.

Quote from: Shasarak;1136110I will admit that I am one of the more vociferous Paizo supporters here at therpgsite.

And I will also admit that I was looking forward to playing the Agents of Edgewater adventure path.

That being said, this is a step too far.

Now I have been watching the slow and then fast devolution of the Paizo staffers since the Wuhan virus sent everyone into lockdown and this has now hit peak mental retardation.

You can not come out against your own RPG adventure where you are members of the police when you have already made a RPG adventure where you are pirates and slavers.  You just can not.

So that being said, it is not me it is you.  Time for us to have a break.  Maybe play some other games for a while, see what other game designers are doing.  And maybe if you can get your shit together, clean out some of that rot eating away at your core competency, stop giving money away to people that represent the worst of society then maybe we can sit down and roll some dice again.

I like 1st edition Pathfinder because it is very similar to Dungeons & Dragons 3.5, and I didn't like the 4th edition very much, now they are moving towards their second edition of Pathfinder and they are moving away from 3.5, and I think 3.5 is a perfectly good game, and I see no reason to change other than to keep game designers busy. As I said before. I don't like all these new editions, I can't keep up! I am an rpg conservative, 3.5 does everything I need it to, 4th edition is overly complicated, while 5th edition is overly simplified. I'd rather have more published adventures than new core rulebooks for me to buy, and they are expensive! Also I am sick of super modules that go from 1 to 20th level and come in hard cover books, I prefer the old style, a simple dungeon where you advance one to two levels per adventure.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136153It would honestly be better if they did not. The outrage brigade has NEVER relented when they see fear. Not giving a shit will yield better results. The mob will get bored and move on.

I think you're onto something with this one.

Sort of like the old saying "Don't feed the trolls"

Quote from: trechriron;1136152So, you strawman the original argument with all kinds of hyperbole taken out of context but my summary of what he actually said was a strawman? Cool. I'll take responsibility. Let me start with my sincere apologies for my strawmen, I will attempt to raid the barn less in my future responses.

Let me be more direct.

I think you are overreacting. I believe the statement was obvious pandering and an appeal to everyone to please not burn Paizo down for the potentially insensitive subject matter. Which they already made and didn't care about before May.

I also think you're being stupid about how a company the size of Paizo is supposed to skate by and not say anything. OR more hilariously that you are astonished by it.

OH, and expect it to continue until the Outrage Brigade has been defeated. Which I'm pretty sure bitching at the companies scared out of their wits will not help.

Was that better?

The companies scared out of their wits is what enables the mob. Every time these companies cave to the Outrage Mob they are validating their positions and submitting to the whims of people who are drawn like sharks to blood in the water. That's why people bitch at them. That, and the fact that the statement was ridiculous in the face of it. The notion that playing detectives trying to solve a series of murders is some sort of "insensitive" subject that could make people "uncomfortable"--not because of the murders, but because you're playing cops trying to stop them--is up-side-down-world levels of absurd. And pandering to idiots who would even entertain such views just enables and helps continue their behavior.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136145What people often miss is that the Tzar was also a bastard. The idea was that communisms promised freedom and retribution of the wronged groups. And it didn't happen and made it worse. Just because a group is fighting wrongness doesn't give them a magic 'get out of responsibility free' card. The worst oppressions often followed reactions to other oppression.

Because only in FANTASY can the 'Good Guys' beat 'Bad Guys' and it ends with a happy ending with no ramifications. And that's fine. That's GOOD. That's why we engage in fantasy.
So it's awful to selectively take that away to appeal to a mob.


Pretty much. Winning wars was like the one thing the royal family could hold to its name anymore. And it effectively started sucking at its ONE JOB.


Apathy being a bad thing implies a morality to be followed. You are moral, your just not using proper definitions of words.



So learn the definition of words. You're not an immoralist. You're a moral pragmatist or a consequentialist. This is me being somewhat snarky but it's important for conversation. If I call myself a Kaiju because I like to make my own food, I expect people to call me a liar.


But they believed their ends justified their means. And their means delivered their ends. The shit thing in believing an 'Ends Justify the Means' thing and a 'The strong rule the weak and the weak don't matter' is that such beliefs undermine your own position.

In my opinion, you're trying to do the SJW thing of intersectionality and lump all the demographics you don't like under one blob to make your own morality easier to parse.



They started really getting insular first. Their word salad for the later books got massively out of hand. With the insularity, SJW-ism followed. And I'm always glad to agree with somebody on something.

Czar Nicolaus II wasn't the worst ruler Russia ever had, he was just the last one that called himself a czar, if you stand him side by side with Joseph Stalin, you find that Stalin was much worse and Nicolaus II didn't kill nearly as many people as Stalin did. Communists often try to justify his overthrow by making him out to be much worse than he actually was, they did the same with Battista of Cuba, they had to overthrow these two leaders so they could gain control of these countries and start their socialist experiment.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1136164Czar Nicolaus II wasn't the worst ruler Russia ever had, he was just the last one that called himself a czar, if you stand him side by side with Joseph Stalin, you find that Stalin was much worse and Nicolaus II didn't kill nearly as many people as Stalin did. Communists often try to justify his overthrow by making him out to be much worse than he actually was, they did the same with Battista of Cuba, they had to overthrow these two leaders so they could gain control of these countries and start their socialist experiment.

Did I say he was worse? No. Why do people keep missing that part? I'm saying that modern social movements think that by fighting injustice they are given the right to do anything and everything because it will turn out better than not doing anything at all. When the reality is not the case.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136165Did I say he was worse? No. Why do people keep missing that part? I'm saying that modern social movements think that by fighting injustice they are given the right to do anything and everything because it will turn out better than not doing anything at all. When the reality is not the case.

There is a difference between the American revolution and their revolution, I think most of the Russians were thinking about overthrowing a tyrant rather than what comes after him, those Russian peasants were living too much in the moment and not thinking about the future of their country, other people who wanted power were, they tricked the gullible masses into giving them absolute power, and that is what I think many of the Democrats want today!

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1136167There is a difference between the American revolution and their revolution

There is also a cultural difference between Americans and Russians people forget about. Russia as a state is a nation almost blitzed into existence by the Mongols. Its kinda always miserable and kinda always been held together by it.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136120Agreed. I liked Golarion as this anachronistic soup. Now that the adventure paths are cannon (with the endings dictated by how PAIZO wants them not the player) the end result is a much duller world.

I disagree that advancing the story line makes a duller world, infact I think it makes the world more vibrant.  Things can and do change, stories end and new villains can rise to take their place.

Ed Greenwood had a good saying about always giving out three new plot thread for every one that gets completed.

I think that you just have to accept that the Golarion you adventure in at your own table is never going to be the same as the one Paizo presents in their products because Paizo never had your Players doing stuff.  That is both the problem and the advantage to having an interactive world.

Quote from: Shasarak;1136169I disagree that advancing the story line makes a duller world, infact I think it makes the world more vibrant.  Things can and do change, stories end and new villains can rise to take their place.

Either creating a nihilistic world where players actions never fix anything, or a stupid world that retcons in new threats that 'Where there all along!'.

Numeria was interesting, but once its secrets are out of the bag its a deadzone. Similar to the runelords. Their 'cannonical' ends and explanations where so anti-climactic and sucky, and its such a shame that such intersting foes where all brushed away.

Paizo is obviously stumbling forward, and continuing to make silly mistakes.  Forever Woke, but Never Quite Woke Enough to meet their own standards; because the goalpost keeps moving.

From the blurb of the adventure module it looks like it was written to be a take on the bow-street runners concept, emerging as a special investigations crime-fighting unit.  Heck, even the picture of the knight on the cover looks like your archetype bobby with the mustache and the no-chin.  Just stick a whistle in his mouth and he could fit right into the pictorial in a old London newspaper.

Sounds like a lot of fun.  Then Paizo goes 180 on it, apologising profusely that they were too 'privileged', reconciling publicly that many people, who regularly play fantasy characters in a fantasy world would somehow not be able to separate reality from a fictional RPG backdrop?  What is that exactly saying about their perception of their audiences' frame of mind?  Seems like they feel that there a a lot of Travis Bickle types as their purchasers.

I also like how there is no middle ground again, with their assumption that if the players aren't playing Sherlock types (who was an advisor to the police, not a member by the way) having a whimsical case of 'Clue', the only other possibility must is power-fantasy driven jackbooted, militant oppressors of the weak.  Nice subtle virtue pandering right there Paizo, playing the safe position for the company while making more assumptions about your player-base's predilections.

I love how their 'solution' to the issue, suggests offended players rip out the whole plot and make it a merry band of mercenaries getting rid of those evil murdering cultists, not because that would be upholding the lawful requirements of being a member of the town's guard, but because they take it upon themselves to endanger their lives as vigilantes.  Haha.  I'm sure there will be no talk of payment of services rendered.

So Paizo, in your attempts to straddle the line between profitable venture and virtuous trumpeter, you look foolish, embarrass your purchasers by questioning their intellect and end up making your 'adventurers' into a warped version of Blackwater contractors.  Well done indeed on standing up for your writers and other developers who worked on the project, but then appending that it was a terrible idea after all.  So brave to make your proud statement of 'we're so sorry' rather than not selling this horrible, egregious product.  Remember, you can rip out the whole plot of the adventure so you can still buy the product with a clear conscience.  Whew!  Thank goodness we can still give Paizo money.

I bought the PF 2e Core and Bestiary but I'm done giving them any more money if they are going to continue pulling crap like this.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136171Either creating a nihilistic world where players actions never fix anything, or a stupid world that retcons in new threats that 'Where there all along!'.

Numeria was interesting, but once its secrets are out of the bag its a deadzone. Similar to the runelords. Their 'cannonical' ends and explanations where so anti-climactic and sucky, and its such a shame that such intersting foes where all brushed away.

If you think that Karzoug getting punked by some random murder-hobos was anti-climactic and sucky then remember that there is a six part adventure path dedicated to doing it "properly" yourself.  Kill him off in the most epic badarse way that you can come up with.

But that story is done for the on going time line.

And of course I disagree that Numeria only has one story that you can tell in it.  I mean take this guy for example:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4605[/ATTACH]

He killed the end boss in Iraq and nothing ever happened there again because all the secrets were out.

I am wondering why people are getting so worked up about this.

Paizo is about as Seattle as you can get as a company and is the epitome of the old joke: How is Paizo like breakfast cereal? Once you remove the fruit, all you have left are the nuts and flakes.

They've never tried to pass themselves off as anything different than what they are. They've always jumped on whatever silly internet meme came along to pack into their setting.

Loads of real American companies are tearing their hair trying to find new ways to pledge allegiance to the CHAZ. American politicians are finding all sorts of ways to try to kiss up to the rioters. I can't really get up much ire if Eric Mona is as much a beta male as the governor of Washington state.

If you like their system, get the SRD and make a new Pathfinder.

Quote from: Shasarak;1136174He killed the end boss in Iraq and nothing ever happened there again because all the secrets were out.

When Iraq has a AI god inside of it, get back to me on that. Otherwise your engaging in strawman arguments. There is a reason stories have a beggining, middle, and end. Because you want them to take place in the most interesting period within them.

Modernity has a massive problem with letting go of finished stories and just adding more crap on them until the entire universe implodes.

Quote from: sureshot;1136160Seconded.

Don't waste your time. It goes against his narrative that we are perpetually offended by everything and anything. So if you don't agree with his narrative your post is outright dismissed. Notice how all he does is come here and complain about us complaining and contributes not much else imo.

I contribute all the time. If the subject interests me. I'm not dismissing your post. I get it. You're pissed. I'm listening (reading) your posts. I just feel that the response doesn't match the offense.

It is worth remembering that the whole media-industrial complex has gone batshit insane. Corporations are plastering Black Power fists over my android phone apps & ads. They think this will avert the Eye of BLM (which is like the Eye of Soros only stupider). Paizo and WotC going Full Retard needs to be seen in that context.

I am not buying anything more from Paizo, but I had decided that a long time ago. I am certainly not shelving my Runelords campaign, which is based on Paizo 2007 content from before the 2012 Wokening. Where I use more recent Woke content I'm happy to subvert it.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136177When Iraq has a AI god inside of it, get back to me on that. Otherwise your engaging in strawman arguments. There is a reason stories have a beggining, middle, and end. Because you want them to take place in the most interesting period within them.

Modernity has a massive problem with letting go of finished stories and just adding more crap on them until the entire universe implodes.

In that case, if you say that you can not run any further adventure within Numeria then I have to believe you.

Never bought anything from Paizo and never will. Won't buy anything from WoTC now either. Or any other company that continues this kind of nonsense (which will end up being most of them, I'm sure).

Quote from: Lynn;1136175If you like their system, get the SRD and make a new Pathfinder.

Considering the love by the 3e crowd for PF1e and the apparent or alleged unhappiness with much of PF2e, there seems to be a niche in the market right now for a PF1.5e or 3.85e, aka something that scratches the PF1e itch but cleans up whatever issues the community felt was a concern. As Golarian is a kitchen sink fantasy, that's easy to remake by anyone - even easier if you dump the political correctness.

Quote from: Anselyn;1136132I don't think that's entirely accurate - other than the party line (as a ENWorld site rule) is no politics.  I wondered if it was also before discussion turned to ENWorld's own Judge Dredd RPG.

That was the old ENWorld, with Eric Noah.  Morrus's rule is "no politics, but if it's one of my pet issues, it's not politics."  I posted a lot there over a 15 year period, had a lot of fun, lots of cool people, but when the new policies went into effect I bailed.  It was a shame - it used to be a really nice community.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1136031And so the silent majority goes silently into the gulag.

To be fair, though, the revolutionaries usually end up guillotining their own eventually too.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1136043We need an immoralist game that is actually a good game with a good setting, one that is inherently anti-woke, anti-postmodernist, anti-punk culture, and anti-Marxist and also not fully compatible with Judeo-Christian and Islamic morality either (but also isn't explicitly vehemently opposed to the Abrahamics as it is to the Marxists and the punks)

You wanna know what the ultimate in Edgelord is today? An unironic Christian Paladin. Lawful. Good. Embodies all the best elements of Chivalry. Stands against both corrupt rulers and marauding bandits because its the right thing to do.

The SJWs are making old time morality; of belief in objective and timeless standards of good and evil into the edgy transgressive acts of today. It's why the latest iterations of the World of Darkness look so lame... because they're trying to pretend that a PC who is a transexual minority is oppressed and maligned when they're the current rock stars of the mass media. You practically can't find a current series where there isn't some LGBT character front and center, any straight white male who's presented as anything better than a joke, nor any Christian who's not presented some combination of ignorant, a hypocrite, a pedophile or otherwise wicked.

Put another way... if being white is such a "privilege" why does no one of mixed race ever claim their white heritage?

There's a reason I made the Christian-faith analogue of my game setting an oppressed culture; because being an authentic Christian even in the face of persecution is where the SJW's have left "Edgy" today.

Edgy today is a group that accepts all races as equal and preaches "Everyone is a beloved child of the Creator" (i.e. all lives matter) and that "nothing is beyond forgiveness" (i.e. the antithesis of cancel culture) and having them regularly attacked and even murdered by a privileged minority for preaching that the masses are as worthy of respect as they are.

Sorry Sammy... we're already back in the pagan days you say you long for; when Church and State were one and the same (it's just not a Christian Church) and demands it's idols be worshipped and that you sacrifice and bend the knee to the appropriate gods of intersectionalism on pain of social and economic ruin... where the names of those deemed "problematic" were erased as if they never existed. Where unwanted children were discarded in the wilderness and left to die. Where the value of a life was only in the service it could give to the State and foreign slaves were brought in to do cheap labor for the elites of society while distracting the common man with welfare bread and free entertainment.

The antidote isn't more of the above; once you're whacking off your genitalia and murdering children by the millions to appease the gods of intersectionalism there's nothing shocking left in that direction. What's shocking are people who rise up and say "no more."

What will shock in this day is basically the Donald Trump of RPGs. One that brashly and unapologetically embraces what used to make RPGs great and gives the forgotten customers a voice in the market. One that labels good as good and evil as evil. One that puts the players in the role of champions of civilization against the darkness seeking to tear it down; the type of people statues get built of, not the types who tear them down.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136171Either creating a nihilistic world where players actions never fix anything, or a stupid world that retcons in new threats that 'Where there all along!'.

Numeria was interesting, but once its secrets are out of the bag its a deadzone. Similar to the runelords. Their 'cannonical' ends and explanations where so anti-climactic and sucky, and its such a shame that such intersting foes where all brushed away.

My son persuaded me to ignore canon entirely and my Runelords campaign is vastly better for it. I still use published stuff where it fits but imc Zutha and Krune have awoken and carved out mini empires while Sorshen lurks behind the scenes and 4720 AR Karzoug is still stuck in his Eye of Avarice but about to sacrifice an army to Magnimar's Hermean meteor swarm bombards. The released life energy will power his return. Meanwhile Zutha is conquering the redshirts of Lastwall while Krune sit happily slothful in his new capital city of Kaer Maga.

BLM is outright a marxist organization.  That carries a lot of implications with it.  You support them, you are in fact supportive of a complete toppling of society in the USA, or most likely for the same in any nation you live.   There is no benign support of such an organization.  If you feel terrible for being white, that is on you, individually.  You want to give something, go to the local ghetto and ask what you can do to help out.  Become a social worker.  Start a tutoring service for poor black kids.  Mentor a person in that community..  Give money directly to a family you feel needs a hand up.  Give directly to the community financially if you want.  If you are absolving your unearned guilt by giving BLM money, you are an idiot, unless your end game goal for a better life is toppling society, and then you are just an evil asshat.  

   Giving money to a FOR PROFIT entity that has a stated ideology that is very clearly to bring chaos and spreading marxist ideology and way of life is about the worst way I could imagine to absolve your unearned guilt.   It would be as if you were a christian and  felt you have sinned for feeling envy in your heart, so instead of confessing to a priest, you decide to give a bunch of money to a satanist cult that offers human sacrifices.

Quote from: oggsmash;1136188BLM is outright a marxist organization.  That carries a lot of implications with it.  You support them, you are in fact supportive of a complete toppling of society in the USA, or most likely for the same in any nation you live.   There is no benign support of such an organization.  If you feel terrible for being white, that is on you, individually.  You want to give something, go to the local ghetto and ask what you can do to help out.  Become a social worker.  Start a tutoring service for poor black kids.  Mentor a person in that community..  Give money directly to a family you feel needs a hand up.  Give directly to the community financially if you want.  If you are absolving your unearned guilt by giving BLM money, you are an idiot, unless your end game goal for a better life is toppling society, and then you are just an evil asshat.  

   Giving money to a FOR PROFIT entity that has a stated ideology that is very clearly to bring chaos and spreading marxist ideology and way of life is about the worst way I could imagine to absolve your unearned guilt.   It would be as if you were a christian and  felt you have sinned for feeling envy in your heart, so instead of confessing to a priest, you decide to give a bunch of money to a satanist cult that offers human sacrifices.

Ironic isn't it? I remember a scene with a white BLM protestor calling a black cop racist, and they attack Union Civil War monuments, sounds like something the KKK would do doesn't it. Maybe when they aren't wearing white hoods on their heads, they are also part time BLM protestors, the KKK has always wanted to get a race war going so they could recruit more white members for the KKK. Could it be that the BLM is actually a front group for the KKK?

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1136205Ironic isn't it? I remember a scene with a white BLM protestor calling a black cop racist, and they attack Union Civil War monuments, sounds like something the KKK would do doesn't it. Maybe when they aren't wearing white hoods on their heads, they are also part time BLM protestors, the KKK has always wanted to get a race war going so they could recruit more white members for the KKK. Could it be that the BLM is actually a front group for the KKK?

Greetings!

No, BLM is not a front group for the KKK. I've seen videos and interviews with BLM leaders. They are black women that are trained organizers and Marxists.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1136207Greetings!

No, BLM is not a front group for the KKK. I've seen videos and interviews with BLM leaders. They are black women that are trained organizers and Marxists.

We need to push back on this and not discount the entire movement though. Fact: Cops have been executing unarmed and defenseless black people far too often for it to be the result of an "accident". Fact: cops have been suppressing our consititutional rights including freedom of the press, for the first time in my life I have seen many urban police departments openly shooting not just protesters, but clearly marked news representatives, and even people not involved in actively protesting, but merely observing. fact: Cops have been shaking down innocent people more than ever to extort cash from them. Fact: cops have been targeting EMTs and other people not involved in protesting.  Fact: A lot of cops traditional crimefighting is no longer necessary. Example: Stolen Cars. Modern GPS location technology, along with updated tech in cars has made auto theft virtually an insignificant crime, because so few cars are actually stolen. In many other areas modern tech can be designed to eliminate the need for police and investigators.

All the money that has been provided to the police departments for law enforcement has been used to purchase military gear and weapons designed to specifically curtail protests. It is a United States constitutional right to gather publicly to organize to redress grievances, whether that be with the government, private industry, or to redress wrongs created by any other groups of individuals. The police department has been redefining itself in order to oppress the masses for the benefit of a few oligarchs, and they definitely need to be defanged.

It's pretty sad that the disenfranchised black people are turning to Marxism in order to solve civil problems and that clearly indicates a failure of traditional American Leadership. It is not the fault of the Marxists that black Americans and minorities (who by 2050 will be the 'majority' are turning to Marxism. It's a failure of the American System to properly include all Americans, to ensure liberty and justice for all. Until we do that, collectively as a nation, we will be at the mercy of red communists, other losers, and every nutcase that shows up outside our door with some stupid new ideology.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1136214We need to push back on this and not discount the entire movement though. Fact: Cops have been executing unarmed and defenseless black people far too often for it to be the result of an "accident". Fact: cops have been suppressing our consititutional rights including freedom of the press, for the first time in my life I have seen many urban police departments openly shooting not just protesters, but clearly marked news representatives, and even people not involved in actively protesting, but merely observing. fact: Cops have been shaking down innocent people more than ever to extort cash from them. Fact: cops have been targeting EMTs and other people not involved in protesting.  Fact: A lot of cops traditional crimefighting is no longer necessary. Example: Stolen Cars. Modern GPS location technology, along with updated tech in cars has made auto theft virtually an insignificant crime, because so few cars are actually stolen. In many other areas modern tech can be designed to eliminate the need for police and investigators.

Err I hope you don't mind, but can you give sources for said facts?

I'm also not particularly pleased with the idea of cops being replaced by an automated robotic surveillance state morality police.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1136214We need to push back on this and not discount the entire movement though. Fact: Cops have been executing unarmed and defenseless black people far too often for it to be the result of an "accident". Fact: cops have been suppressing our consititutional rights including freedom of the press, for the first time in my life I have seen many urban police departments openly shooting not just protesters, but clearly marked news representatives, and even people not involved in actively protesting, but merely observing. fact: Cops have been shaking down innocent people more than ever to extort cash from them. Fact: cops have been targeting EMTs and other people not involved in protesting.  Fact: A lot of cops traditional crimefighting is no longer necessary. Example: Stolen Cars. Modern GPS location technology, along with updated tech in cars has made auto theft virtually an insignificant crime, because so few cars are actually stolen. In many other areas modern tech can be designed to eliminate the need for police and investigators.

All the money that has been provided to the police departments for law enforcement has been used to purchase military gear and weapons designed to specifically curtail protests. It is a United States constitutional right to gather publicly to organize to redress grievances, whether that be with the government, private industry, or to redress wrongs created by any other groups of individuals. The police department has been redefining itself in order to oppress the masses for the benefit of a few oligarchs, and they definitely need to be defanged.

It's pretty sad that the disenfranchised black people are turning to Marxism in order to solve civil problems and that clearly indicates a failure of traditional American Leadership. It is not the fault of the Marxists that black Americans and minorities (who by 2050 will be the 'majority' are turning to Marxism. It's a failure of the American System to properly include all Americans, to ensure liberty and justice for all. Until we do that, collectively as a nation, we will be at the mercy of red communists, other losers, and every nutcase that shows up outside our door with some stupid new ideology.

The damage wrought by the "protests" far exceeds that done to George Floyd by that one bad cop, when white people get beat up and injured by black mobs, that is not going to reduce racism, that is going to increase it! As for blacks becoming tha majority and turning to communism, if that ever happens, then whites will have to turn to secession to protect their freedoms from the Communists taking over the United States, that is one reason we need to cut down on immigration from those places where people think communism is a good idea.

Just because the majority wants communism and wants to enslave the rest of us, does not mean we should let them have it! Communism is a stupid idea, the Soviet Union failed for a reason, now there are a bunch of minorities that did not learn this lesson of history and who want to repeat the mistake of the Russians, what will result would be another civil war, with people on one side fighting to protect our freedom, while the other side wants to repeat the mistake of the Russian Revolution forcing us at gunpoint to march along with them or be shot! I don't want concentration camp USA, and it doesn't matter to me whether the people who do want it are the minority or the majority, if they are the majority, then we will unfortunately have to find a new form of government to stop it! The majority after all was on the side of slavery in the USA after all, that doesn't make it right. Communism is a new form of slavery, what happened in the Soviet Union makes that perfectly clear, if certain minorities want that form of government , we can direct them where to go to find it, Cuba is the closest place, I just don't want them making it here!

Quote from: Warpiglet;1136063And I agree.  But what I am NOT going to do is buy any crap that promotes political garbage.  I am voting with my dollars but not giving up the ship.

My buddy thinks this will be cyclical and die down.  I think he too optimistic, dunno.  Glad however to be able to 'publicly' be angry here.  My third post and I have not been kicked out so there is that...

It is cyclic at pretty much a 20 year turn around. Im old enough to have seen 2 prior iterations in the 70s and 90s and theres been ones further back. Same general pattern of censorship and often a dose of the news media riling up racial tensions a little or alot. Sometimes its fairly mild. Sometimes its fairly oppressive.

This latest 2010 wave though. Its the worst yet and Im not so sure either its going to quiet down before the next iteration due in 2030. The internet is allowing this disease to spread further and faster.

Quote from: trechriron;1136123Hmmm. Another tempest in a teacup.

Note how the cultists move to defend the hive mind of any wrongdoing.

Lets say some great sounding organization came about "save all the children" or some such.  And had some fantastic results with getting underprivileged kids fed, clothed, and getting on to higher education.  Then we see a video of one of the organization's founders being a trained nazi.   What fucking moron would stick with that?  The biggest difference I can see from the two totalitarian ideologies, is Marxism has A MUCH BIGGER BODY COUNT.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1136183Considering the love by the 3e crowd for PF1e and the apparent or alleged unhappiness with much of PF2e, there seems to be a niche in the market right now for a PF1.5e or 3.85e, aka something that scratches the PF1e itch but cleans up whatever issues the community felt was a concern. As Golarian is a kitchen sink fantasy, that's easy to remake by anyone - even easier if you dump the political correctness.

Yes, exactly mirroring what Pathfinder 1.x did for the 3.5 market!

Quote from: Lynn;1136246Yes, exactly mirroring what Pathfinder 1.x did for the 3.5 market!

Have you checked out Spheres of Power and Spheres of Might? It's a real fundamental rework of PF that reworks the game to work off 'trait' progression, and makes character building much more customizable and easy to do. But it's not a standalone system for now at least.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1136214It is a United States constitutional right to gather publicly to organize to redress grievances, whether that be with the government, private industry, or to redress wrongs created by any other groups of individuals. The police department has been redefining itself in order to oppress the masses for the benefit of a few oligarchs, and they definitely need to be defanged.

It is not a Constitutional right to assemble wherever you like. Even in pinko PDX, up until a few years ago, the police enforced non-permitted protests in the street with arrests.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136249Have you checked out Spheres of Power and Spheres of Might? It's a real fundamental rework of PF that reworks the game to work off 'trait' progression, and makes character building much more customizable and easy to do. But it's not a standalone system for now at least.

I haven't but did find this wiki about it, thanks! http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/spheres-of-might

It is a right to assemble PEACEFULLY.  Break windows, throw things, push people, and well, that goes right in the shitter.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1136214We need to push back on this and not discount the entire movement though. Fact: Cops have been executing unarmed and defenseless black people far too often for it to be the result of an "accident". Fact: cops have been suppressing our consititutional rights including freedom of the press, for the first time in my life I have seen many urban police departments openly shooting not just protesters, but clearly marked news representatives, and even people not involved in actively protesting, but merely observing. fact: Cops have been shaking down innocent people more than ever to extort cash from them. Fact: cops have been targeting EMTs and other people not involved in protesting.  Fact: A lot of cops traditional crimefighting is no longer necessary. Example: Stolen Cars. Modern GPS location technology, along with updated tech in cars has made auto theft virtually an insignificant crime, because so few cars are actually stolen. In many other areas modern tech can be designed to eliminate the need for police and investigators.

All the money that has been provided to the police departments for law enforcement has been used to purchase military gear and weapons designed to specifically curtail protests. It is a United States constitutional right to gather publicly to organize to redress grievances, whether that be with the government, private industry, or to redress wrongs created by any other groups of individuals. The police department has been redefining itself in order to oppress the masses for the benefit of a few oligarchs, and they definitely need to be defanged.

It's pretty sad that the disenfranchised black people are turning to Marxism in order to solve civil problems and that clearly indicates a failure of traditional American Leadership. It is not the fault of the Marxists that black Americans and minorities (who by 2050 will be the 'majority' are turning to Marxism. It's a failure of the American System to properly include all Americans, to ensure liberty and justice for all. Until we do that, collectively as a nation, we will be at the mercy of red communists, other losers, and every nutcase that shows up outside our door with some stupid new ideology.

I mostly agree, though, it is my understanding that police departments have not so much been purchasing military gear, as much as getting surplus equipment from the Afghanistan and Iraq Wars. This has been ramming up since 9/11 and it's part of the culture that the so-called "War on Terror" brought us, along with the the erosion of civil liberties and NSA intrusions on the 4th amendment to spy on the US public by tracking cellphone data and such. Police have become increasingly militarized as an excuse to fight "terrorism" and has been poorly trained to see the public as potential combatants that they have to clamp down on, which contributes to the mindset that leads to excessive use of force.

And the media doesn't help, because it does biased, sensationalistic reporting to spur public outrage and draw clicks. White people also get killed or wrongfully attacked by the police, but you never hear about them, likely because selling the narrative that cops kill civilians because they're just racist draws more public outrage (and clicks) than just saying that police brutality and violations of civil liberties has become a bigger issue. I remember a lot of stories from the 2000's of police barging into people's homes without warrant, cuz they suspected (sometimes wrongly) that their neighbor might be selling drugs or be involved in some other illegal activity. In one case an elderly white couple was seriously injured (I think the man had his hip broken) and their dog killed, cuz they wanted to use their house as a staging area to investigate their neighbor, then it later turned out it wasn't even the right house.

This sort of thing has been building up for decades now and we're living in the aftermath of a militarized police force, a surveillance state, and a public that has been misled and their grievances consistently ignored. And while we may disagree with organizations like BLM and the claims they make (which are often proven wrong) or their ideology, the reasons why such groups sprang up are not completely imaginary. There are genuine grievances hidden behind the rise of such movements, and even if the motives of their leadership are questionable, the problems facing the public right now are real. And in the absence of real solutions desperate people will turn to whoever seems to be addressing these issues.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1136214All the money that has been provided to the police departments for law enforcement has been used to purchase military gear and weapons designed to specifically curtail protests. It is a United States constitutional right to gather publicly to organize to redress grievances, whether that be with the government, private industry, or to redress wrongs created by any other groups of individuals. The police department has been redefining itself in order to oppress the masses for the benefit of a few oligarchs, and they definitely need to be defanged.

Actually, as is the case in real life and not in the fantasy world of ideologues, the police in America have a nuanced and complicated budget. Here is a breakdown of Chicago's, for example: https://detourdetroiter.com/detroit-police-budget-spending-charts/

The militarisation of police, the many years of goodwill following 9/11, the increased strength of police unions, the eroding of civil liberties, and budgetary cuts leading to insufficient training has all had an effect.  The percentage of bad cops is increasing and the Blue Wall of silence is stronger than ever.

Black people are just the canary in the coal mine here.  Blaming everything on Racism isn't going to fix the police, because the problem with police goes beyond just race.

All these White game designers should stop wringing their hands and listen to a black game designer.  Here's Mike Pondsmith on Cops and Racists. (https://rtalsoriangames.com/2020/06/12/mike-pondsmith-cops-and-racists/)

Quote from: Omega;1136239It is cyclic at pretty much a 20 year turn around. Im old enough to have seen 2 prior iterations in the 70s and 90s and theres been ones further back. Same general pattern of censorship and often a dose of the news media riling up racial tensions a little or alot. Sometimes its fairly mild. Sometimes its fairly oppressive.

This latest 2010 wave though. Its the worst yet and Im not so sure either its going to quiet down before the next iteration due in 2030. The internet is allowing this disease to spread further and faster.

Maybe we ought to send them to Vietnam, the first crop was born protesting US involvement in the Vietnam War, they were fine with the war itself, as the communists started it. If they like Vietnamese Communism, we should send them to Vietnam, and maybe they will learn how to pick rice. Vietnam is communist, just like they wanted, they should go there.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1136267Maybe we ought to send them to Vietnam, the first crop was born protesting US involvement in the Vietnam War, they were fine with the war itself, as the communists started it. If they like Vietnamese Communism, we should send them to Vietnam, and maybe they will learn how to pick rice. Vietnam is communist, just like they wanted, they should go there.

I know some Vietnamese. They are tough, admirable people IME. They don't deserve your SJWs!

Quote from: CRKrueger;1136262The militarisation of police, the many years of goodwill following 9/11, the increased strength of police unions, the eroding of civil liberties, and budgetary cuts leading to insufficient training has all had an effect.  The percentage of bad cops is increasing and the Blue Wall of silence is stronger than ever.

Black people are just the canary in the coal mine here.  Blaming everything on Racism isn't going to fix the police, because the problem with police goes beyond just race.

All these White game designers should stop wringing their hands and listen to a black game designer.  Here's Mike Pondsmith on Cops and Racists. (https://rtalsoriangames.com/2020/06/12/mike-pondsmith-cops-and-racists/)

That was such a good piece from Pondsmith, I shared it on Facebook!

My Lefty friends will hate it for not preaching BLM, and my Righty friends will hate it for calling out the dire state of policing in the USA (which is a bipartisan failure).

Apologizing for having "fantasy police" in your game, is taking it a step too far. How many of their fans actually agree with  this bizarre apology? 99.9% Disagree 0.01% Agree. Guess their sales about to plunge.

Quote from: S'mon;1136271I know some Vietnamese. They are tough, admirable people IME.

Pretty much what my dad said too.

Quote from: Chris24601;1136186You wanna know what the ultimate in Edgelord is today? An unironic Christian Paladin. Lawful. Good. Embodies all the best elements of Chivalry. Stands against both corrupt rulers and marauding bandits because its the right thing to do.

Awesome, eloquent and powerful post!

Would you consider Pendragon to be that game today?

Quote from: Chris24601;1136186Put another way... if being white is such a "privilege" why does no one of mixed race ever claim their white heritage?

Some do. The Hodge Twins/Conservative Twins on YouTube say they're 55% black from DNA tests and both parents are black, but they have lots of white ancestry on both sides. They joke about whether they will get reparations or have to pay for them. I've met "mixed race" people who honor both their parents, but its financially advantageous today to identify as non-white. That was the opposite case 60 years ago.

Quote from: Chris24601;1136186What will shock in this day is basically the Donald Trump of RPGs. One that brashly and unapologetically embraces what used to make RPGs great and gives the forgotten customers a voice in the market. One that labels good as good and evil as evil. One that puts the players in the role of champions of civilization against the darkness seeking to tear it down; the type of people statues get built of, not the types who tear them down.

Does Castles & Crusades fit that concept?

I am sure there are small press games that are explicitly GOOD vs. EVIL. I'd argue Warhammer Fantasy 1e fit that in actual play quite a bit. Certainly, there are many video games where its Good Hero vs. Evil Doers. Until the past couple of decades, most comic books fell under that paradigm, but was thrashed for not having "realistic nuance" in a morally gray world.

Quote from: S'mon;1136187My son persuaded me to ignore canon entirely and my Runelords campaign is vastly better for it.

Kudos to your very smart son. Canon, regardless of the game, should always be jettisoned if it interferes with the fun.

Quote from: oggsmash;1136188BLM is outright a marxist organization.  That carries a lot of implications with it.  You support them, you are in fact supportive of a complete toppling of society in the USA, or most likely for the same in any nation you live.   There is no benign support of such an organization.

Absolutely correct. Marxist bullshit is all over the BLM website. It's not hidden.

This isn't some conspiracy theory about BLM. It's on their damn website!

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136222I'm also not particularly pleased with the idea of cops being replaced by an automated robotic surveillance state morality police.

What could possibly go wrong?

Quote from: S'mon;1136271I know some Vietnamese. They are tough, admirable people IME. They don't deserve your SJWs!

Vietnamese-Americans, like Cuban-Americans, are overwhelmingly anti-communist...for some totally unknown reason.

Quote from: S'mon;1136271I know some Vietnamese. They are tough, admirable people IME. They don't deserve your SJWs!

Nothing against them, but they lost, the insurgency won! They lost the right to have a meaningful vote, they lost the right to have a representative government. Our soldiers were there fighting for their freedom, and the American people grew tired of supporting the war to secure Vietnamese freedom from oppression, there was a window of opportunity where the Vietnamese people could have helped our soldiers fight for their freedom and they didn't help enough, our congress grew tired, cut the funding, and the Vietnamese people lost.

Our soldiers, those that survived, went home to their families and to their free country, but the Vietnamese people ended up either as international refugees or living under communist oppression. I do not see the Vietnamese people as the victors in this conflict, American soldiers were fighting for them, not against them, but the Vietnamese people did not see to it that our soldiers were successful when they had the chance, and so they lost their freedom, and their democratic rights.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1136293Nothing against them, but they lost, the insurgency won! They lost the right to have a meaningful vote, they lost the right to have a representative government. Our soldiers were there fighting for their freedom, and the American people grew tired of supporting the war to secure Vietnamese freedom from oppression, there was a window of opportunity where the Vietnamese people could have helped our soldiers fight for their freedom and they didn't help enough, our congress grew tired, cut the funding, and the Vietnamese people lost.

Our soldiers, those that survived, went home to their families and to their free country, but the Vietnamese people ended up either as international refugees or living under communist oppression. I do not see the Vietnamese people as the victors in this conflict, American soldiers were fighting for them, not against them, but the Vietnamese people did not see to it that our soldiers were successful when they had the chance, and so they lost their freedom, and their democratic rights.

I'm not sure they ever had freedom or democratic rights. They don't seem to resent America BTW, AFAICT they see it as another vanquished foreign occupier like China & France. They certainly prefer America to China these days since the USA is their best ally deterring Chinese expansionism. From their POV Communism seems more a vehicle for the national liberation struggle, rather than a transnational struggle, which I think is a mistake the US made in how the US saw Vietnam - fairly reasonably, since the likes of Fidel Castro did see Communism in their own country as a stepping stone to global Communism.

Quote from: oggsmash;1136188BLM is outright a marxist organization.  ...

Since my conservative cohorts do this all the time, can you DM me your sources? Curious if this is a conspiracy theory you imagine when you were set off or if you have some real evidence to back up your accusations.

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I love the idea of a solid competitor to any established market. D&D is #1 and Pathfinder is #2 based on not so perfect measurements most in the industry consider OK measuring tools. However, gaining a piece of that market share requires a TON of guerrilla marketing. Everyone hates Daniel Fox and Zweihander is anathema to theRPGsite, but his marketing was gold. I highly doubt he pulled THAT much market share off the top dogs. Maybe?

If the entire effort of building the new big dog is centered around politics? You just ostracized half your audience. Now you're trying to pull a market share of like-minded rebels who hate the top dog like you do.

The truth is most people enjoy these games because they're good. They appeal to a broad set of gamers. The politics virtue signaling came later, under pressure from the mob. The game was not designed under that pressure. They brought to market a game. What you're suggesting is bringing to market a cult centered around a game. I don't believe that will work. Now, in your defense it appears that the big dogs are now trying to build a cult around their game. But, they have a head start. They built a good game first.

Quote from: trechriron;1136310Since my conservative cohorts do this all the time, can you DM me your sources? Curious if this is a conspiracy theory you imagine when you were set off or if you have some real evidence to back up your accusations.

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I love the idea of a solid competitor to any established market. D&D is #1 and Pathfinder is #2 based on not so perfect measurements most in the industry consider OK measuring tools. However, gaining a piece of that market share requires a TON of guerrilla marketing. Everyone hates Daniel Fox and Zweihander is anathema to theRPGsite, but his marketing was gold. I highly doubt he pulled THAT much market share off the top dogs. Maybe?

If the entire effort of building the new big dog is centered around politics? You just ostracized half your audience. Now you're trying to pull a market share of like-minded rebels who hate the top dog like you do.

The truth is most people enjoy these games because they're good. They appeal to a broad set of gamers. The politics virtue signaling came later, under pressure from the mob. The game was not designed under that pressure. They brought to market a game. What you're suggesting is bringing to market a cult centered around a game. I don't believe that will work. Now, in your defense it appears that the big dogs are now trying to build a cult around their game. But, they have a head start. They built a good game first.

  there is a video of one of the co founders on this very site, and all over the internet.  She explained to a fellow who was curious if she had an ideological structure to keep momentum and she explained she was a trained marxist.

https://youtu.be/kCghDx5qN4s    a bit past the 7 min mark.

  There are literally lists of different articles or videos of her in this interview stressing she is a trained marxist, along with another co founder.  Odd they have not been able to non profit status for what, 4-5 years?   I guess that makes the book keeping a bit more private.

   Hey though, a conspiracy I guess?  I can tell you this, 10 years ago, I would not be considered conservative .  With little change in my political views, I am now firmly right wing it seems.  Think something shifted?

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136222Err I hope you don't mind, but can you give sources for said facts?

I'm also not particularly pleased with the idea of cops being replaced by an automated robotic surveillance state morality police.

(https://www.syfy.com/sites/syfy/files/styles/1200x680/public/wire/legacy/robocopweek1.jpg)

Robocop is clearly racist.  And one Robo punch to subdue a subject and I for see massive riots.

Quote from: trechriron;1136310Since my conservative cohorts do this all the time, can you DM me your sources? Curious if this is a conspiracy theory you imagine when you were set off or if you have some real evidence to back up your accusations.

Word salad on their "About BLM" on their very site

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

This is Collectivist Authoritarianism disguised as "Social Justice". Take the words - then marry it to their actions, then look at the backgrounds of their leadership. They're Marxists.

Patrisse Cullors - co-founder is a self-avowed Marxist. Here I'll use a left-wing news-source so you know it's not biased. They're pretty open about it
https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/

Quote"We are trained Marxists. We are super-versed on, sort of, ideological theories. And I think that what we really tried to do is build a movement that could be utilized by many, many black folk," Cullors added in the interview with Jared Ball of The Real News Network.

They're affiliated with the Black Communist party as well - in her own words.
https://www.democracynow.org/2018/1/16/when_they_call_you_a_terrorist

Look, this is all predicted. Communism is arriving swathed in righteous clothes of "justice" and utilizing the very apathy and softness of modern Western people and democracy where applicable to seize power. Good times produce Weak People. America writ-large is being tested on their resolve towards keeping America intact.

It's not "over there". It's on our doorstep. And I'm saying this as a Californian transplant to Texas which is about the safest urban area in the country - and it's most certainly here. Weak people have taken positions of leadership are producing Bad Times...

What happens next is predictable too. Bad Times are here... we'll all be called to stand and be counted. Whether you like it or not - it's already happening. That's what the whole BLM Cult is already doing. Bend the knee or else. Say the words or else. And even if you do, and someone decides it's not "good enough" - you may still get screwed anyhow.

If BLM and liberal protestors and rioters and LARPing Anarchists think their riots are something to behold. Wait until traditional, conservative, neutral people that want to be left alone get tired of this garbage. It will be a sad day... and totally avoidable, but the elite establishment want to keep everyone at each others throats for their own benefit.

And here we are. And I say this not as a conservative or "classical liberal" - just as a philosophy and history nut, "POC", that is slightly smarter than the average dumbass, but has no problem saying the Emperor has no Clothes.

Sean King a so-called "thought leader" of BLM is a white man masquerading as a black man, and calling for the cancellation of Jesus Christ and the Virgin Mary. Using SJW cultural Marxist standards selectively, while ignoring Muhammed who was a slave-owning pedophile by anyone's standards, and everyone in BLM loves the guy. There is ZERO credit given to BLM as an organization, and as a "movement" I find it laughable in the face of what's they're bringing down the pipe on us all.

Quote from: trechriron;1136310I love the idea of a solid competitor to any established market. D&D is #1 and Pathfinder is #2 based on not so perfect measurements most in the industry consider OK measuring tools. However, gaining a piece of that market share requires a TON of guerrilla marketing. Everyone hates Daniel Fox and Zweihander is anathema to theRPGsite, but his marketing was gold. I highly doubt he pulled THAT much market share off the top dogs. Maybe?

I love market competition too. I would have been all-in on Zweihander if it were not for Fox himself. But here's the reality - and you already know this - the RPG "industry" is completely converged with SJW's. Like most niche cottage industries. The problem with being non-SJW and engaged in any kind of hobby or community that doesn't talk about SJW asshattery, is that it immediately marks you as a target for SJW's that don't really care for your hobby as much as they want to simply control it for their own cult-narratives and sacrifice nay-sayers and flood the zone with their bullshit.

That's why *WE* are *HERE*. This site exists *because* it's already happened.

Quote from: trechriron;1136310If the entire effort of building the new big dog is centered around politics? You just ostracized half your audience. Now you're trying to pull a market share of like-minded rebels who hate the top dog like you do.

The truth is most people enjoy these games because they're good. They appeal to a broad set of gamers. The politics virtue signaling came later, under pressure from the mob. The game was not designed under that pressure. They brought to market a game. What you're suggesting is bringing to market a cult centered around a game. I don't believe that will work. Now, in your defense it appears that the big dogs are now trying to build a cult around their game. But, they have a head start. They built a good game first.

Agreed. I'll give you one very specific example I'm a little worried about. It's no secret here I've become a *big* supporter of Savage Worlds, and they dance around the SJW thing quite a bit, especially with Deadlands, but nothing I find objectionable, but some close calls for me. I don't care if PEG believes in "social justice", I care if that ideology infiltrates the game. Then they lose me. I'm ready for it. I've already in the last two months added a bunch of companies to my shit list: Apple, WotC, Blizzard/Activision, Sony, and a few others. *I* am the middle-aged man with lots of disposable income they are choosing to not court because of their gross ideology. It would be the same if they went religious-right and approached everything from that pathological puritanical position as well.

Businesses are in the business to make money. If you want to be activists - there is a cost to that. The RPG industry is largely WotC. That war is lost. Case in point, let's pretend RPGsite decided to create RPG's. The mere fact that it's the RPGSite, that game would be brigaded down in a heartbeat. Even if there was not a whiff of political ideology in the game at all. And it's going to get worse for independents that are new and aren't already walking around with the Scarlet "R" on them. Pundit has found his niche, but let's face it... we all know he wears his "R" proudly. Most of the rest of us aren't trying to make a living doing RPG design. And for a very good reason given that political climate and my personal non-identitarian views (I refuse to be a token identity designer) - it likely will never happen (for me).

Everyone will face that purity-test, maybe even to the point where the game you play will designate your political allegiances. One could argue it's already happened. Hence I don't support SJW companies or buy their products if the game has pathological SJW slants to them.

Quote from: Mistwell;1136317(https://www.syfy.com/sites/syfy/files/styles/1200x680/public/wire/legacy/robocopweek1.jpg)

Figures. CIS white male. Just like Darth Vader. EVIL!

I hear the masses crying out for SJWfinder, the RPG!!!

#SJWfinder, because we care....

The door is open to a 5.5e that's unabashedly pro-Americana and the audience for that game certainly exists.
But trechriron is correct, it would need to be a good game first and foremost.

Would that game and its publishers get brigaded? Yes, and that would be in the marketing plan. That publisher would need a social media team ready to roar back and launch a guerrilla marketing war. Getting banned from ENworld and RPGnet would be put on a T-shirt.

Quote from: tenbones;1136322If BLM and liberal protestors and rioters and LARPing Anarchists think their riots are something to behold. Wait until traditional, conservative, neutral people that want to be left alone get tired of this garbage.

I have little faith the Right will rise to action.

 

Quote from: tenbones;1136322Sean King a so-called "thought leader" of BLM is a white man masquerading as a black man, and calling for the cancellation of Jesus Christ and the Virgin Mary. Using SJW cultural Marxist standards selectively, while ignoring Muhammed who was a slave-owning pedophile by anyone's standards, and everyone in BLM loves the guy

Talcum X better be careful. If BLM starts attacking Catholic churches, we *might* all learn how angry Latino Americans can get. In LA, the news have been showing lines around the block at gun stores, and when you zoom in, lots and lots of those customers have a deep tan.

I'm not much into black metal, but I like seeing Ghost and Behemoth live, both which have huge Latino followings in SoCal. I've talked to lots of Latino guys with corpse paint and pentagram tats and we joke about how they still go to church with their grandma on Christmas and Easter. If these honky Antifucks mess with grandma's favorite stained glass, I wonder if its go time.

I expect whitey will let their churches burn. Unsure about the Mexicans, Guatemalans, Cubans and Puerto Ricans.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1136262The militarisation of police, the many years of goodwill following 9/11, the increased strength of police unions, the eroding of civil liberties, and budgetary cuts leading to insufficient training has all had an effect.  The percentage of bad cops is increasing and the Blue Wall of silence is stronger than ever.

Black people are just the canary in the coal mine here.  Blaming everything on Racism isn't going to fix the police, because the problem with police goes beyond just race.

All these White game designers should stop wringing their hands and listen to a black game designer.  Here's Mike Pondsmith on Cops and Racists. (https://rtalsoriangames.com/2020/06/12/mike-pondsmith-cops-and-racists/)

Damn right! Mike Pondsmith is a freaking legend! He doesn't mince words and bows down to no one. He's basically the most badass TTRPG designer there is.

Quote from: trechriron;1136310Since my conservative cohorts do this all the time, can you DM me your sources? Curious if this is a conspiracy theory you imagine when you were set off or if you have some real evidence to back up your accusations.

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I love the idea of a solid competitor to any established market. D&D is #1 and Pathfinder is #2 based on not so perfect measurements most in the industry consider OK measuring tools. However, gaining a piece of that market share requires a TON of guerrilla marketing. Everyone hates Daniel Fox and Zweihander is anathema to theRPGsite, but his marketing was gold. I highly doubt he pulled THAT much market share off the top dogs. Maybe?

If the entire effort of building the new big dog is centered around politics? You just ostracized half your audience. Now you're trying to pull a market share of like-minded rebels who hate the top dog like you do.

The truth is most people enjoy these games because they're good. They appeal to a broad set of gamers. The politics virtue signaling came later, under pressure from the mob. The game was not designed under that pressure. They brought to market a game. What you're suggesting is bringing to market a cult centered around a game. I don't believe that will work. Now, in your defense it appears that the big dogs are now trying to build a cult around their game. But, they have a head start. They built a good game first.

I hate the way that people throw this word around, calling everything they don't like "marxist" and falling back on that term constantly as a descriptor--even when it doesn't necessarily apply--but in this case it's technically accurate. Plenty of their leaders are open marxist and several of their demands explicitly include socialist conceits, like redistribution of wealth, end privatization of natural resources, and Increased support for "the development of cooperative or social economy networks." (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movement_for_Black_Lives#Demands).

Even the line at the end of the BLM chant that starts "We have a duty to fight for our freedom. We have a duty to win..." then finally ends "...We have nothing to lose but our chains," is a reference to the communist manifesto, which ends with the words: "The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win. Proletarians of All Countries, Unite!"

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I would also like to see more competition for the big companies, specially since Pathfinder is basically just a clone of D&D and I would like to see more styles of play become prominent. I'm also not a fan of big corporations and would like to see smaller publishers make it big. Fortunately the internet and the proliferation of computer technology, including word processing and graphic design software, has made self-publishing easier and more cost effective than ever before. Anyone of us could potentially write a professionally made manual in our home and publish it on our own. We could even blog about it, or publish excerpts online, share design ideas (as we often do here already), etc. We are living in the RPG golden age already. We just haven't fully realized it yet.

If I was to DM this Paizo's adventure path I'd mobilize a "Baddies Lives Matter" group to riot, burn and loot every time the player characters got a baddie.
My players would love the irony.

I remember one of the shrek movies and they did a quick bit called "Knights" that had the same music and style as the show Cops, and it was great.

   Perfect maybe for a fantasy police encounter?  But I do not know If I would want to be on the force, they looked all thumbs.

Everybody, check out RPGPundit's thread in the main forum before posting in this thread again.

I don't want ANY of you - whether or not we agree on anything - getting banned from theRPGsite.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1136337Damn right! Mike Pondsmith is a freaking legend! He doesn't mince words and bows down to no one. He's basically the most badass TTRPG designer there is.

Agreed. I've said it before, and I stand by it:

1. Mike Pondsmith and I likely disagree on a number of social and political issues.
2. Mike Pondsmith is one of the top RPG designers of all time, and I'll gladly buy his stuff and play it at any table I can.

Both of those are true, because I've never seen him push the issues where we likely disagree into his games. If they are present, they aren't sufficiently prominent to stand out to me. So, awesome games from an awesome designer.

Quote from: RandyB;1136364I've never seen him push the issues where we likely disagree into his games.

I think back in the '80s and early '90s I didn't have much fear of The Cyberpunk Corporate Dystopia. I guess neither did many other people. So that's what we got. The world definitely is worse now as a result.

I have never played PF2e, but I did play PF1e for a couple of years. Assuming things still work the same, the idea of an AP where the PCs are "police" is utterly terrifying to me for one simple reason: the likelihood that the PF grappling rules will see frequent use at the table.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1136415I have never played PF2e, but I did play PF1e for a couple of years. Assuming things still work the same, the idea of an AP where the PCs are "police" is utterly terrifying to me for one simple reason: the likelihood that the PF grappling rules will see frequent use at the table.

I can see it now:

"Shall we bring him in?"

ooc "Hell no, that involves grappling, just cut him down and chuck him in the river!"

Quote from: S'mon;1136409I think back in the '80s and early '90s I didn't have much fear of The Cyberpunk Corporate Dystopia. I guess neither did many other people. So that's what we got. The world definitely is worse now as a result.

Funny thing. The Cyberpunk genre always had a "right wing unrestrained leads to this" tone to me, and it's the Left that has largely brought us to this point.

For a unique take on the genre that reads more like the latter, look for Neurospasta.

Quote from: RandyB;1136430Funny thing. The Cyberpunk genre always had a "right wing unrestrained leads to this" tone to me, and it's the Left that has largely brought us to this point.

For a unique take on the genre that reads more like the latter, look for Neurospasta.

I agree. There are megacorporations today, they are Amazon and Google, the people in charge of those are left-wingers, when they present a cyberpunk setting it usually is a mirror universe of the world we live in, you have right wingers in charge of the megacorps instead.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1136437I agree. There are megacorporations today, they are Amazon and Google, the people in charge of those are left-wingers, when they present a cyberpunk setting it usually is a mirror universe of the world we live in, you have right wingers in charge of the megacorps instead.

Well Cyberpunk corps are based on the biggest 1980s corps, so more Exxon than Google.

I think the big genius of Cyberpunk prediction was not tech, but the end of Ideology as it had defined the 20th century, the rise of corporate-led Globalism and the decline of the Nation State. Instead of Communists vs Capitalists, we got the last page of Animal Farm.

Quote from: S'mon;1136447Well Cyberpunk corps are based on the biggest 1980s corps, so more Exxon than Google.

I think the big genius of Cyberpunk prediction was not tech, but the end of Ideology as it had defined the 20th century, the rise of corporate-led Globalism and the decline of the Nation State. Instead of Communists vs Capitalists, we got the last page of Animal Farm.

And in that vein, it took a resurgence of nationalism to rein in the megacorps in the Cyberpunk 2020 setting. Maximum Mike strikes again. :cool:

So the Paizo bosses are wallowing in self-denial and guilt-trip shit.

I find it disgusting, and frankly I strive to rise above my simple emotional response.

It's clear they won't get a dime from me until something changes for the better and they grow a spine. Anyway, it's been years since I paid for their products.

Those poor deluded fuckers are condemning their business to years of Soviet style "creative" endeavors. If I were a Paizo creative person I would get the Hell out of there asap. Imagine writing for Stalin while trying in vain to salvage your creative vision...

Still, if you submit yourself willingly to abuse, you will get abused ; it's open to debate if you then deserved it in the first place.

I don't want to be overly dramatic, but I fear that if the USA continues on this present SJW path, it will endure painful cultural agony - a la communist China during the Cultural Revolution. Tenbones' tales from the edition's warzone are particularly appaling.

Fight back, fellow geeks :-) ! My heart goes to you.

Quote from: RandyB;1136430Funny thing. The Cyberpunk genre always had a "right wing unrestrained leads to this" tone to me, and it's the Left that has largely brought us to this point.

For a unique take on the genre that reads more like the latter, look for Neurospasta.

Cyberpunk 2020:

(https://i.redd.it/64nn784sy5i41.jpg)

Quote from: RandyB;1136430Funny thing. The Cyberpunk genre always had a "right wing unrestrained leads to this" tone to me, and it's the Left that has largely brought us to this point.

For a unique take on the genre that reads more like the latter, look for Neurospasta.

Meh, we didn't get here with the so-called Left alone. We've been heading down this path for decades, with the needless Iraq War pushed by the Bush administration, along with the NSA, the Patriot Act and the militarization of police, and the road towards corporate oligarchy paved before Bush Jr. even came into office. The "Left" that we have today didn't even exist as a major force till a few years ago. History didn't start at the start of the Culture War. Just because we have SJWs now that doesn't mean that the so-called "Left" were always the bad guys machinating behind the scenes to cause all of this.

I always figure we were heading into a Cyberpunk world for a very long time. It didn’t really get Demolition Man flavored till recently.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1136478Cyberpunk 2020:

(https://i.redd.it/64nn784sy5i41.jpg)

Maximum Mike was a fucking prophet!

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1136478Cyberpunk 2020:

(image snipped)

Damn, that's a straight up indictment of identity politics if I ever saw one.

If I ever run into Mr. Pondsmith, I'll buy him a drink of his choice, damn the costs.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1136478Cyberpunk 2020:

(https://i.redd.it/64nn784sy5i41.jpg)

Quote from: VisionStorm;1136491Maximum Mike was a fucking prophet!

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1136492Damn, that's a straight up indictment of identity politics if I ever saw one.

If I ever run into Mr. Pondsmith, I'll buy him a drink of his choice, damn the costs.

I forgot about that one. :o

However, Maximum Mike didn't write that sourcebook. He did publish it, and full credit to him for that.

The "cyberpunk is rightist corporatism gone wild" vibe I mentioned is less Cyberpunk 2020 proper and more cyberpunk genre in general.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1136483Meh, we didn't get here with the so-called Left alone. We've been heading down this path for decades, with the needless Iraq War pushed by the Bush administration, along with the NSA, the Patriot Act and the militarization of police, and the road towards corporate oligarchy paved before Bush Jr. even came into office. The "Left" that we have today didn't even exist as a major force till a few years ago. History didn't start at the start of the Culture War. Just because we have SJWs now that doesn't mean that the so-called "Left" were always the bad guys machinating behind the scenes to cause all of this.

I always figure we were heading into a Cyberpunk world for a very long time. It didn't really get Demolition Man flavored till recently.

The big corporations publishing cyberpunk games are not going to indict themselves so in their fictional world, they construct strawman right-wing megacorps, not the left-wing versions that they are. If Amazon Prime does a series set in a Cyberpunk would, you can bet the fictional megacorps they put in there are going to be conservative run arms suppliers for the US military just like in Robocop.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1136498The big corporations publishing cyberpunk games are not going to indict themselves so in their fictional world, they construct strawman right-wing megacorps, not the left-wing versions that they are. If Amazon Prime does a series set in a Cyberpunk would, you can bet the fictional megacorps they put in there are going to be conservative run arms suppliers for the US military just like in Robocop.

Dude, I'm not gonna go down this path further, cuz we're not supposed to be talking non-RPG politics here anyway and Pundit already got pissed last night, and this only tangentially related to best to Cyberpunk 2020, which isn't even the thread's topic. But this is backwards thinking revisionist history and I already mentioned why.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1136503Dude, I'm not gonna go down this path further, cuz we're not supposed to be talking non-RPG politics here anyway and Pundit already got pissed last night, and this only tangentially related to best to Cyberpunk 2020, which isn't even the thread's topic. But this is backwards thinking revisionist history and I already mentioned why.

It's natural in human conversation for the subject to wander from topic to topic in making one's point.  Keeping it on topic is a very unnatural thing to do, it tends discourage conversation altogether, as one needs to weigh each word and judge whether it goes over the border or not before posting.

I just want to know where that source if from so I can get the book.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136525I just want to know where that source if from so I can get the book.

Neo-Tribes sourcebook.

"Maximum Mike: Cyberpunk 2020 Prophet" would be a good thread for RPGPundit's forum (and we can discuss books by other CP2020 writers too) because while its related to RPGs, the discussion is bound to become highly political which would result in bannings on the main forum.

As always, regardless if I agree or disagree with you, I don't want any of you to get banned.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1136536"Maximum Mike: Cyberpunk 2020 Prophet" would be a good thread for RPGPundit's forum (and we can discuss books by other CP2020 writers too) because while its related to RPGs, the discussion is bound to become highly political which would result in bannings on the main forum.

As always, regardless if I agree or disagree with you, I don't want any of you to get banned.

I didn't really come here to discuss politics, but I do have strong political opinions about things. I'm trying to get a play by post game going here. I am manually rolling Dice, because I don't know how the dice roller here works. It is a quasi-D&D 3rd edition game.

Quote from: Warpiglet;1136027Thank the Lord.  I am a refugee posting for the first time here after leaving another forum which would not have allowed this common sense assessment to go unchecked.  The pile on from posters is one thing.  But overactive ideological moderation is too much.  Thank God for feee speech.

I'm a refugee, too.  We probably fled the same forum.  Heck, I just fled a _Star Trek_ forum because of the ridiculousness there and it's almost to the point where I can't go to freakin' space.com...!

I gave up on Paizo around 2015/2016 because I was offended by their PANDERING to certain groups.  It was embarrassing, demeaning and marginalizing to those groups - and all for "look at us and how woke we are"-driven potential sales, poorly cloaked as "inclusiveness and diversity."

In fact, they had "inclusiveness and diversity" in their products pre-2015/2016 and I was fine with that.  It was only when Mona himself bragged about it in an interview that I bailed.

I came here tonight after a friend told me today about WotC's decision about races.

I wondering how long the old TSR back catalog will still be up on Drivethru.rpg before they're altered - either with a "context statement" or downright removal of products.

Welcome aboard FASAfan!

Start a thread about your favorite games...I suspect they're from FASA! :)

Quote from: FASAfan;1136611I wondering how long the old TSR back catalog will still be up on Drivethru.rpg before they're altered - either with a "context statement" or downright removal of products.

You bring up an EXCELLENT point!!! Thank you.

Anyone who wants their TSR PDFs intact should download them and archive them ASAP. Leaving them in the DriveThru Library means they can be altered by the WotC thought police at any time in the future. AKA, you could get an "update" message and POOF who knows WTF the PDF will look like once its scrubbed clean to appease our Woke Overlords.

Same with old movies, audiobooks and any other digital media too. I can imagine old video games being "FIXED" in the name of wokeness. If you're gonna destroy historical monuments, might as well destroy / deface / alter cultural items from the past as well.

As Orwell said in 1984, "Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past."

Quote from: FASAfan;1136611I'm a refugee, too.  We probably fled the same forum.  Heck, I just fled a _Star Trek_ forum because of the ridiculousness there and it's almost to the point where I can't go to freakin' space.com...!

I gave up on Paizo around 2015/2016 because I was offended by their PANDERING to certain groups.  It was embarrassing, demeaning and marginalizing to those groups - and all for "look at us and how woke we are"-driven potential sales, poorly cloaked as "inclusiveness and diversity."

In fact, they had "inclusiveness and diversity" in their products pre-2015/2016 and I was fine with that.  It was only when Mona himself bragged about it in an interview that I bailed.

I came here tonight after a friend told me today about WotC's decision about races.

I wondering how long the old TSR back catalog will still be up on Drivethru.rpg before they're altered - either with a "context statement" or downright removal of products.

The 3.5 game is public content, it will always be with us, the game can't be uninvented. Someone can always make another d20 that is similar to Dungeons & Dragons. If WOTC wants to go woke, someone else can make a nonwork setting with that. We'll see who's dollars are worth more, woke or nonwoke!

FASAfan,

The TSR back catalog is only going to be a serious sales revenue channel for a few more years, anyway.

The grognards either already have it, or will soon get it; and very few new players are going that far back into the history of RPGs.

Better get it while it's for sale.

What really pisses me off, more than these shallow SJW babies is that the companies, and even small publishers that bend the knee, and roll over without even second thought.
And not only that, then they begin the pitiful process of self-flagellation.

The result of this is 'sanitizing' the product (as we've seen in interface zero). But the problem here is that RPGs are not just a 'product' they are a form of artistic expression. So these pathetic fools are now censoring art.
When the fuck did censoring art become okay?

Oh wait it didn't.

Quote from: FASAfan;1136611I came here tonight after a friend told me today about WotC's decision about races.

You know what the silliest part of WotC's announcement is? The pretense that this makes them some sort of industry leader.

Palladium Fantasy has had the gender-fluid Changelings and playable kobolds, goblins, orcs, ogres and wolfen for DECADES now. The difference? Kevin just thought their inclusion made for an interesting fantasy setting, not because it was a political statement about LGBT and minority rights.

The proper thing to throw in Paizo's and WotC's face is "Palladium Books did it first, did it better, and didn't need a 'Look At Me!' announcement before he did it."

Quote from: Chris24601;1136652You know what the silliest part of WotC's announcement is? The pretense that this makes them some sort of industry leader.

Palladium Fantasy has had the gender-fluid Changelings and playable kobolds, goblins, orcs, ogres and wolfen for DECADES now. The difference? Kevin just thought their inclusion made for an interesting fantasy setting, not because it was a political statement about LGBT and minority rights.

The proper thing to throw in Paizo's and WotC's face is "Palladium Books did it first, did it better, and didn't need a 'Look At Me!' announcement before he did it."

100%. Lots of RPGs have races that are as morally and culturally nuanced as humans, and they don't have to plaster virtue signalling retcons all over the place. Easiest way for WotC to fix all this shit? Abandon the fucking ridiculous alignment system that should have gone the way of the dodo back when 2e came out.

Do you guys ever vote with your wallets, or will you continue to do business with Paizo, WoTC, Green Ronin, Whitewolf or Evil Hat?

I never really bought anything from WoTC or Paizo. I was a TSR guy back in the day. I did buy quite a lot of stuff from Evil Hat and Green Ronin (and VtM back in the day).

But that's the last dime, they'd ever get, since the way things have been going over the last year or so...

I'm keeping my games free of social pressure. And think Paizo is on a publicity ride. Unfortunately most of these people never touched a tabletop rpg in their lives. Wasting their time... Don't see how they would maximize profits on the latest.

Quote from: The Exploited.;1136672Do you guys ever vote with your wallets, or will you continue to do business with Paizo, WoTC, Green Ronin, Whitewolf or Evil Hat?

I never really bought anything from WoTC or Paizo. I was a TSR guy back in the day. I did buy quite a lot of stuff from Evil Hat and Green Ronin (and VtM back in the day).

But that's the last dime, they'd ever get, since the way things have been going over the last year or so...

All the time. I was never a Paizo customer in the first place, but all the companies you've listed are on my "never buy from" list. I sometimes think it's a shame, but then I remember there are so many worthy small press studios out there making quality games and I get over it. I used to buy Fate products from Evil Hat. I was kinda always annoyed with them. But when Fred Hicks decided to go full-on hypocrite with the whole "we hate Lovecraft but we're happy to profit from him" routine, I had enough. Then of course Fred doubled down with a Twitter statements that more or less stated, "If you aren't woke like me, Evil Hat literally doesn't want your money". So I've obliged. They won't get another dime from me again. Ever.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1136676All the time. I was never a Paizo customer in the first place, but all the companies you've listed are on my "never buy from" list. I sometimes think it's a shame, but then I remember there are so many worthy small press studios out there making quality games and I get over it. I used to buy Fate products from Evil Hat. I was kinda always annoyed with them. But when Fred Hicks decided to go full-on hypocrite with the whole "we hate Lovecraft but we're happy to profit from him" routine, I had enough. Then of course Fred doubled down with a Twitter statements that more or less stated, "If you aren't woke like me, Evil Hat literally doesn't want your money". So I've obliged. They won't get another dime from me again. Ever.

Good to hear! As you say, there's plenty of smaller fish about that deserve the cash. :)

Hicks is fool. His hypocrisy has no bounds as it would seem. Yeah, it's a shame too, as I liked a lot of their products. But never again will I hand him my cash.

Quote from: sureshot;1135989I will never stop playing Pathfinder I am probably never going to buy anything new from them ever again. Apologizing for an upcoming Adventure Path where players run characters in the city watch. All because players are running the fantasy version of the police. They never apologized for making an Adventure Path where players can run and are encouraged to be as evil as can be. Nor  apologize where players are supposed to be like Pirates and also do evil things. Decided it was a good thing to include the Pathfinder version of Pennywise the Clown in their setting. Yet to virtue signal and more likely sales they have to apologize for players being members of the City Watch. That is not at all insulting to members of the hobby who have parents, friends and family who are in the force or law enforcement in general. Don't take my word for it is on their Agents of Edgewatch Update on the Paizo blog and I am not putting a link to it as I no longer want to give them any kind of traffic or support in sales.

Which also reveals the sheer hypocrisy of members in the hobby because they are all offended by playing members of the city watch or any kind of fantasy law enforcement . Yet were and are fine playing evil as can be player characters, pirates with very lose morals. Man I am sometimes embarrassed being a gamer in the hobby lately. Even then it's not the nature of the apology it's the fact that it is the most pathetic abject grovelling I have seen to date from an rpg company. It comes off as a low level mafia flunky having to apologize for a major screw-up to the godfather.

I don't play Pathfinder, so maybe I don't understand the product well, but I can't see why they would need to apologize for having police tropes in a game. I feel like we are entering a moment in the hobby where people read any content as an endorsement of political ideas that the content could be connected to. You have plenty of actors in police procedural movies and TV shows who are critical of police in real life, because it is make believe and not real life. They can separate those two things out. I ran countless counter terrorism campaigns, with people all over the political map, and the content of the game was never seen as an endorsement or criticism of anyone's ideas (it was just meant to be escapism). I've been slowly withdrawing more and more from the conversations in the gaming community, and I have to say, I am kind of glad, because I don't think I could feel comfortable creatively if I was hyper aware of all these discussions going on all the time now.

I vote with my wallet all the time....however I also am willing to have some political disagreement with creators of things I buy.   The amount of good faith I am willing to have with the level of disagreement is directly proportional to the level of quality of said product.   So if you are making mediocre content, I think you really risk alienating people one way or the other.  IF your content is fantastic, and as long as you do not feel to preach a sermon to me, I do not really care about political lines.   However, when your quality starts to slide/or you bloat and dilute your product, and THEN decide there is a soapbox and sermon in our future....well I am gone.  

    I tend to go all in with a product, and for the longest time I wanted to move my gaming group to pathfinder (Rappan athuk I had, and converting it to dungeon fantasy was going to make some of the encounters insanely hard, or easier than intended, so conversion was going to be alot of work).  I bought an old copy of the core book (a used copy from my game story for 15 bucks) and it was workable.  Combine this with the level of Pathfinder participation I saw at Gencon  a few years ago.   Then they talked a second edition.  They felt the need to put a huge blurb in there preaching.  That was it for me, 5e had a Rappan athuk, I got that and bought all core books and 4 others for 5e and had my group all buy PHB's.   This is anecdotal, but Wizards gained a total retail sale value of around 500 bucks from me.    I got the Pathfinder Rappan from Frog God game's website on a huge discount for 50 bucks.  
   Wizard has earned well from me the past 3 years.  They risk never getting another dime.  I will wait and see just how much of a sermon they think they need to preach, but they are thinning the ice right now.

Quote from: oggsmash;1136684Wizard has earned well from me the past 3 years.  They risk never getting another dime.  I will wait and see just how much of a sermon they think they need to preach, but they are thinning the ice right now.

Fair point... Generally I tend not to care about a writer's or creative's personal politics. UNTIL they start shoving it down my throat or altering games that I like. Anyone that goes 'full on' SJW/Censor I'll just keep the money and spend it elsewhere. If enough people did it, and they knew why, they'd soon be back with 'cap in hand'.

Quote from: The Exploited.;1136672Do you guys ever vote with your wallets, or will you continue to do business with Paizo, WoTC, Green Ronin, Whitewolf or Evil Hat?

   Haven't bought a Paizo product in years, haven't bought a new WotC product since Curse of Strahd--since then, the only money that they've gotten from me has been for the TSR backstock in digital or PoD, and even that's drying up as they go more activist. I used to follow and buy products from Green Ronin and Pelgrane, but largely abandoned them after the Blue Rose 2E launch and #Feminism, respectively. I've never been a White Wolf fan outside of when they had Ravenloft 3E, and while I backed the initial FATE kickstarter for sheer value-for-money and have a signed copy of FATE Accelerated (Hicks happened to be in the store), I've stayed away from them for a long time as well.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1136688Haven't bought a Paizo product in years, haven't bought a new WotC product since Curse of Strahd--since then, the only money that they've gotten from me has been for the TSR backstock in digital or PoD, and even that's drying up as they go more activist. I used to follow and buy products from Green Ronin and Pelgrane, but largely abandoned them after the Blue Rose 2E launch and #Feminism, respectively. I've never been a White Wolf fan outside of when they had Ravenloft 3E, and while I backed the initial FATE kickstarter for sheer value-for-money and have a signed copy of FATE Accelerated (Hicks happened to be in the store), I've stayed away from them for a long time as well.

Corporations suck, they get big and they all act alike, valuing the woke dollar above everyone else's. How about an rpg that is sleep? Sleep is the opposite of woke after all. What can we do to make an rpg that is sleep?

Part of the problem may be, marketing, again.

They push the idea that "fans are bad" and that its good for business to drive them off. Because you can totally 100% true replace all that loss with new customers. Rinse repeat every 5 years.

Quote from: Omega;1136690Part of the problem may be, marketing, again.

Its a case of the structure. You gotta promise growth even if it's in no way sustainable.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1136688I backed the initial FATE kickstarter for sheer value-for-money and have a signed copy of FATE Accelerated (Hicks happened to be in the store), I've stayed away from them for a long time as well.

I did actually back Fate of Cthulhu when I first saw it, I'm now sad to say. :( Little did I know what muck was going to follow from Freddie.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1136689What can we do to make an rpg that is sleep?

Pretty easy... In theory. Just stop the cash flow. But you'd need to get a group of people - Just like the 'they/them' crowd do.

However, they would have to know, that 'woke' games were actually putting fans off. Otherwise they would just put it down to the market ups and downs. But if they knew there was a backlash it might shake things up a bit.

PS - And put our money where our mouth is when helping smaller indie people out (I try to do that as much as I can - cash permitting).

Quote from: Omega;1136690Part of the problem may be, marketing, again.

They push the idea that "fans are bad" and that its good for business to drive them off. Because you can totally 100% true replace all that loss with new customers. Rinse repeat every 5 years.

If they want to market to LGTBQ role playing game players, they can leave me out! I don't want to buy the "gay edition" of Dungeons & Dragons, if they want to cater to that group, I am perfectly happy to stick with 3.5. I am not interested in gay romance or gay hijinks, I am not interested in gay people at all, nothing against them, I'm just not interested in them. Maybe some people will get off on gay romance, just not me, I shouldn't have to apologize for being heterosexual, watching gay people do gay things does not float my boat. I like simple role playing adventures, I like suspense, I like characters I can identify with, for me that is not gay people. I would like modern politics to stay out of games, I don't want to be hit on the head with racial diversity and inclusion in adventures, I am not there to be taught a lesson, I am there for my own entertainment. If they want, they can have a seperate category for gay adventures, or adventures that emphasize how "black" the characters are, but I am not interested in those, what they look like shouldn't matter, and since it is a game of the imagination, I don't actually see them.

Quote from: The Exploited.;1136672Do you guys ever vote with your wallets, or will you continue to do business with Paizo, WoTC, Green Ronin, Whitewolf or Evil Hat?

I never really bought anything from WoTC or Paizo. I was a TSR guy back in the day. I did buy quite a lot of stuff from Evil Hat and Green Ronin (and VtM back in the day).

But that's the last dime, they'd ever get, since the way things have been going over the last year or so...

Sure do! Although, in full disclosure, the last purchase from WotC was, actually, about two months ago when I saw the retail price on one of their map packs "revisited" and thought it was a good deal*. At least there's no obvious agenda or virtue signaling in a freakin' map pack...

* Damn.  I guess they get a cut of the Deep Cuts miniatures by WizKids. I do buy those.

Haven't and won't purchase Paizo** since I loaded up all my crap and took it to a mega-media/bookstore that gives cash/store credit in 2015/2016.  I really only had it because a best friend liked the complexity and I liked spending money...

** Damn. Damn. See (*).

And I'm really ticked that Drivethrurpg decided to support seditionists by joining in that bail fund nonsense (not to get off subject).

In fact, I bought the core ACKS books only after I learned of all the silly, white knight crap the author was getting. I support OSR and I love Pundit's stuff, too.  I've happily bought it.  I'll basically support anyone (after a bit of research) who's been boycotted or has been threatened with such by the great woke legions.

My shelves now contain BX, ADD 1&2 and OSR stuff such as Basic Fantasy, Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea, Fantastic Heroes and Witchery and the aforementioned stuff... oh and FASA Star Trek material - hence my handle.

Quote from: The Exploited.;1136672Do you guys ever vote with your wallets, or will you continue to do business with Paizo, WoTC, Green Ronin, Whitewolf or Evil Hat?

I can't swear I'd never buy from WoTC again, but I would not buy from the others you mention. I mostly buy OSR & 5e 3PP.

Quote from: S'mon;1136717I can't swear I'd never buy from WoTC again, but I would not buy from the others you mention. I mostly buy OSR & 5e 3PP.

I get it man... It's hard not to buy stuff if you really love a game. Plus, if all your group play 5e. I'm sure my pdf collection has some real doozies. I somehow don't quite feel the same anger towards WoTC knowing that they are ultimately controlled by the megacorp Hasbro who ultimately pull the strings.

Those other companies now make my skin crawl.

Quote from: FASAfan;1136701My shelves now contain BX, ADD 1&2 and OSR stuff such as Basic Fantasy, Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea, Fantastic Heroes and Witchery and the aforementioned stuff... oh and FASA Star Trek material - hence my handle.

Fair enough mate. :) I hoovered up the ACKS stuff recently as well. I've not really had a good gander at it tho'. We are living in good times for retro gaming with the whole OSR movement. There's a shit tonne of great choices.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1136699If they want to market to LGTBQ role playing game players, they can leave me out!

I've no problem with people's personal proclivities. Best of luck! Everyone should be treated equally, etc.

I only judge people by their actions at any rate.

BUT one thing I just don't understand... When did sexuality become so important to RPGs? It was just never a thing when I was playing, or even when I play now, and I play with quite a few different people. Also, I mean at no point, is anyone saying that you can't play a gay character in the rule books. In fact, nearly all the books, that I've read don't mention it at all. It's just not a thing. So why, all of a sudden, does it now need to be 'backed' into the rules (unless it's a game like Alpha Blue or something?).

And if you ask these basic questions, then your a 'phobe'. Which is utter lies.

I mean, if someone wants to play a gay character at my table, that's fine. But he or she will be treated exactly the same as I'd treat a heterosexual character. AKA - it's just not really important to the game. As you say, the adventure will be about doing cool things.

Sure, bring what you want to your table and games. But forgive me, if I'm not particularly interested what your character's 'sexual interests or exploits are. I'd much rather cut the head off some ORCs.

I'm trying not veer off topic. I feel it's somewhat relevant, because of 'forced' game alteration. Pundit can tell me to stop if he think I am.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1136699If they want to market to LGTBQ role playing game players, they can leave me out! I don't want to buy the "gay edition" of Dungeons & Dragons, if they want to cater to that group, I am perfectly happy to stick with 3.5. I am not interested in gay romance or gay hijinks, I am not interested in gay people at all, nothing against them, I'm just not interested in them. Maybe some people will get off on gay romance, just not me, I shouldn't have to apologize for being heterosexual, watching gay people do gay things does not float my boat. I like simple role playing adventures, I like suspense, I like characters I can identify with, for me that is not gay people. I would like modern politics to stay out of games, I don't want to be hit on the head with racial diversity and inclusion in adventures, I am not there to be taught a lesson, I am there for my own entertainment. If they want, they can have a seperate category for gay adventures, or adventures that emphasize how "black" the characters are, but I am not interested in those, what they look like shouldn't matter, and since it is a game of the imagination, I don't actually see them.

I had a hetero player in a 3e game play a gay elf character as a result of having another player draw a character portrait for him which he said made the character "look gay" (like dude thats all elves, androgyny or whatever) and everyone was fine with him running with it and it actually turned out to be not a bad character concept at all, but I'm sure that since none of us were gay there were a lot of stereotypes in play with that which one of the woke kiddies would have called us names for and got offended, for example, when he'd do in-character speech he tried to be sing-song valley girl with a lisp, and this is a burly guy so the comedic factor was pronounced. No one set out to lambaste or make fun of gays though i'm sure thats what a wokeling would claim was going on. They'd likey insist that if we can't "gay correctly" that we must not gay at all or its appropriation or marginalizing or whatever. The mere presence of gays or gay tropes would not deter me from including material, but the overt normalization of such in the game-world (waterdeep pride parades) certainly would. An npc that happens to be gay is fine for example, but one which is a crusader or televangelist about it begins to rub me wrong.

Quote from: Slipshot762;1136730The mere presence of gays or gay tropes would not deter me from including material, but the overt normalization of such in the game-world (waterdeep pride parades) certainly would. An npc that happens to be gay is fine for example, but one which is a crusader or televangelist about it begins to rub me wrong.

Yep.

Speaking of inclusion... And speaking of 'art'. And WoTC wanting to include more depictions of 'gay' character in the illustrations, etc. Just how does one make a character 'look gay?' I mean, surely these SJWs don't want the old trope of an effeminate fop flanneling about the world, right? As you pointed out.

When you look at the art in a D&D book, etc. And you see some burly sword wielding armored character, just how the fuck do you know if he's gay or straight? He could, in theory be gay. But the SJWs don't seem to want that, however. So, do all character illustrations have to be holding hands while slaying a dragon? Or hanging off a character of the same sex  while they are being chased by the city watch?


Is it important what sexuality a character is, if he or she is doing something cool while depicting the game's context? It's ridiculous...

What's to say my avatar, that I drew is not gay? Just how could an SJW prove me wrong? I'll wait... LOL

I don't let my (or others') politics affect my art & entertainment purchases. But then I also stopped buying $ product by WotC, WW/Onyx Path, etc. years ago. :) I just was no longer interested in the products they had to offer. I don't like Pathfinder, Chronicles of Darkness, FATE, or most WotC D&D (except for Basic 5e). So for me it was never a political boycott, just an aesthetic disinterest. :D

I am still open to being surprised by Paizo in the future, but I know I am very much not their customer base... and that's OK for both of us! Let them cater to their customers as they understand it -- and let's see if those who screech loudest truly are their untapped vein of customer profits. :p

Quote from: Opaopajr;1136742I don't let my (or others') politics affect my art & entertainment purchases. But then I also stopped buying $ product by WotC, WW/Onyx Path, etc. years ago. :) I just was no longer interested in the products they had to offer. I don't like Pathfinder, Chronicles of Darkness, FATE, or most WotC D&D (except for Basic 5e). So for me it was never a political boycott, just an aesthetic disinterest. :D

I am still open to being surprised by Paizo in the future, but I know I am very much not their customer base... and that's OK for both of us! Let them cater to their customers as they understand it -- and let's see if those who screech loudest truly are their untapped vein of customer profits. :p

Their first edition. Core rules are good, they are just a slightly modified version of D&D 3.5, I don't like buying adventures as $39 hard cover books that cover levels from 1 to 20. I don't want my campaign to be dictated by chapters in a 1 to 20th level adventure. I like the original concept of a dungeon, you know an adventure which provides your character with no more than 3 levels of advancement, a dungeon should cost no more than $10 to $15 at most, the DM should be able to insert it into his campaign rather than have the adventure be the campaign!

There was a recent release of a fantasy cops product for 1E/OSRIC, City of Solstice, Evil Streets

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/309533/City-of-Solstice-Evil-Streets

Basically the premise is that a coalition of villains take over a fantasy city and the PCs are members of the city watch. There was an adventure released a week or so before this all started, it will be interesting to see if there is further support.

For the life of me when i read Guard!Guard! by Terry Pratchett i had no idea i would be reading a book that in just a couple of years later would be considered ''undesirable'' by some people, just because the main heroes are somewhat cops. The main takeaway from that is that yes, there are bad authoritarian guardians that use force and are corrupt=the day guard versus the corrupt incept but good guy guard=the night watch. So its by no means a clearcut issue. And in the end the argument between the Patrician and Vimes was won by Vimes in favor of people not beeing bad but just stupid. I had no idea it would be so real in light of the current irl developments. I would like to see what Sir Terry Pratchets stance on BLM would be. Somehow I feel his satire woudnt be SJW inspired.

Now about Paizo beeing scared and groveling. They are a big company, they play by their own rules. Sure, they risk alienating their fanbase by making a PC decision to ''look good''. But as they are a company i dont really expect them to behave any diffrently. Companies must look out for their selfinterest in anyways they can. Why should we be suprised? With the bounty of other rpgs out there, why should we support Paizo? I know my money wont land in their coffers any more, thats in my selfinterest.

Honestly, the current zeitgeist is looking pretty grim if you ask me. The ideological chaos coming from usa is making all the sjws around the world ape them en masse. Good knows in what it will end but i predict it will not end good. The real benefactors of all this civil unrest? Not the common man for sure.

Quote from: Warder;1136768For the life of me when i read Guard!Guard! by Terry Pratchett i had no idea i would be reading a book that in just a couple of years later would be considered ''undesirable'' by some people, just because the main heroes are somewhat cops. The main takeaway from that is that yes, there are bad authoritarian guardians that use force and are corrupt=the day guard versus the corrupt incept but good guy guard=the night watch. So its by no means a clearcut issue. And in the end the argument between the Patrician and Vimes was won by Vimes in favor of people not beeing bad but just stupid. I had no idea it would be so real in light of the current irl developments. I would like to see what Sir Terry Pratchets stance on BLM would be. Somehow I feel his satire woudnt be SJW inspired.

Now about Paizo beeing scared and groveling. They are a big company, they play by their own rules. Sure, they risk alienating their fanbase by making a PC decision to ''look good''. But as they are a company i dont really expect them to behave any diffrently. Companies must look out for their selfinterest in anyways they can. Why should we be suprised? With the bounty of other rpgs out there, why should we support Paizo? I know my money wont land in their coffers any more, thats in my selfinterest.

Honestly, the current zeitgeist is looking pretty grim if you ask me. The ideological chaos coming from usa is making all the sjws around the world ape them en masse. Good knows in what it will end but i predict it will not end good. The real benefactors of all this civil unrest? Not the common man for sure.

Without law and order, their are no profits! A company like Paizo or WotC cannot exist in a lawless land, why should they make new products if others can steal them and there was no one to enforce the law because, as they advocated, the police were defunded? Without the police it would be like Chicago under Al Capone, only worse.

Quote from: JeremyR;1136765There was a recent release of a fantasy cops product for 1E/OSRIC, City of Solstice, Evil Streets

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/309533/City-of-Solstice-Evil-Streets

Basically the premise is that a coalition of villains take over a fantasy city and the PCs are members of the city watch. There was an adventure released a week or so before this all started, it will be interesting to see if there is further support.

That premise reminds me of the show Gotham. There were a few episodes were the Penguin got elected mayor of Gotham City, and he started issuing licenses to commit a crime, and then in the last season the Joker had all the bridges to the mainland blown up, most of the citizens of the city were evacuated, but a few could not leave or remained behind and the whole city became a lawless autonomous zone. Seemed a bit over the top at the time I watched it, not so much now.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1136770That premise reminds me of the show Gotham. There were a few episodes were the Penguin got elected mayor of Gotham City, and he started issuing licenses to commit a crime, and then in the last season the Joker had all the bridges to the mainland blown up, most of the citizens of the city were evacuated, but a few could not leave or remained behind and the whole city became a lawless autonomous zone. Seemed a bit over the top at the time I watched it, not so much now.

177 pages, nearly 4 months ago, no sales, no ratings. This is what makes me worried about spending too much time writing anything these days. Global economy collapse, nobody spending...

That's only because of the virus. The economy is fine, it just has been put on pause.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1136780That's only because of the virus. The economy is fine, it just has been put on pause.

Isn't that like saying a person's heart is fine, it just has been put on pause? With the hear, it can be done safely under strictly controlled circumstances for very short periods of time, but without those controls or if it goes too long, and it's no longer "fine" at all. With the economy, it's almost impossible to have such strict controls because of all the moving parts acting with varying degrees of central control and when the timespan is undefined, well...

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1136780That's only because of the virus. The economy is fine, it just has been put on pause.

Very optimistic, be prepared though. The second wave will truly test us as a functional society.
It will be several years until we fully understand the massive economical damage inflicted by covid.
Small businesses going bankrupt is sadly only the beginning. I fear a total chain store capitalist takeover.

QuoteSmall businesses going bankrupt is sadly only the beginning. I fear a total chain store capitalist takeover.

I'm tempted to agree. Amazon's surged during the pandemic, while main streets and malls have died.

I really want to reply here. but the place to discuss the economy overall isn't on the gaming threads. Pundit's subform has a thread for it though.

Quote from: FASAfan;1136701In fact, I bought the core ACKS books only after I learned of all the silly, white knight crap the author was getting. I support OSR and I love Pundit's stuff, too.  I've happily bought it.  I'll basically support anyone (after a bit of research) who's been boycotted or has been threatened with such by the great woke legions.

This. "Voting with your wallet" has to include spending money on products from those small publishers we like, as well as refraining from purchasing from those we don't.

Quote from: FelixGamingX1;1136783Very optimistic, be prepared though. The second wave will truly test us as a functional society.
It will be several years until we fully understand the massive economical damage inflicted by covid.
Small businesses going bankrupt is sadly only the beginning. I fear a total chain store capitalist takeover.

Only if we have an alternate universe to compare it with.

Quote from: Zalman;1136792This. "Voting with your wallet" has to include spending money on products from those small publishers we like, as well as refraining from purchasing from those we don't.

Stick with 3.5 OGL then, don't buy a 5th edition or 6th edition.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1136780That's only because of the virus. The economy is fine, it just has been put on pause.

The economy was on the verge of collapse: Seigniorage does not work. It does, however, keep asset price bubbles inflated. Debt levels are 50% higher than the GFC - and that's before taking into account the massive explosion in unfunded liabilities.

If anything, the virus will be a convenient scapegoat for the collapse that was going to happen anyway.

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1136800The economy was on the verge of collapse: Seigniorage does not work. It does, however, keep asset price bubbles inflated. Debt levels are 50% higher than the GFC - and that's before taking into account the massive explosion in unfunded liabilities.

If anything, the virus will be a convenient scapegoat for the collapse that was going to happen anyway.

Economy never fully recovered since 2007, but in the last 3 years things were definitely walking in the right direction. And then I haven't left the house much since Mid March. Dollars not circulating x few million people = Recession time
Think I'll be working from home till next year, I don't miss the outside world at all.

will say the mental gymnastics from the butt kissers trying to say what Paizo did is good and okay is kind of sad. "well it's okay to have skull and shackles as a pirate themed AP because pirates are not a problem in America yet playing as fantasy police is because of the issues with police now.

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1136800The economy was on the verge of collapse: Seigniorage does not work. It does, however, keep asset price bubbles inflated. Debt levels are 50% higher than the GFC - and that's before taking into account the massive explosion in unfunded liabilities.

If anything, the virus will be a convenient scapegoat for the collapse that was going to happen anyway.

We don't know what was going to happen anyway, we only know what did happen.

Quote from: sureshot;1136805will say the mental gymnastics from the butt kissers trying to say what Paizo did is good and okay is kind of sad. "well it's okay to have skull and shackles as a pirate themed AP because pirates are not a problem in America yet playing as fantasy police is because of the issues with police now.

Depends on what kind of pirates, we have copyright pirates that can copy their books and sell them on the street, if the cops are defunded, then it's too bad for Paizo, because then they would have no one to call, I hope they realize that!

Quote from: Zalman;1136792This. "Voting with your wallet" has to include spending money on products from those small publishers we like, as well as refraining from purchasing from those we don't.

   Which is why I've been making a point of buying independent novels and RPG supplements, supporting some new publishing houses, and backing Kickstarters lately.

  At this point, the 'biggest' publishers I pay attention to are probably Troll Lord Games, Pinnacle Entertainment Group, and The Design Mechanism. :)

TBP also finally got wind of it and fun enough not much traffic for the thread on the D20 Fantasy section unless it is hidden somewhere else .

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1136809Which is why I've been making a point of buying independent novels and RPG supplements, supporting some new publishing houses, and backing Kickstarters lately.

  At this point, the 'biggest' publishers I pay attention to are probably Troll Lord Games, Pinnacle Entertainment Group, and The Design Mechanism. :)

The Indie market's being taken more serious since a few years back. 10 Years ago, anything labeled indie was a hard pass.
The problem with that is, people abuse privileges to push biased agendas through literature, not much different than the news.
There are small publishers out there that all they do is spread misinformation and throw dirt at others hoping to benefit themselves.
You have no idea how tough, and disgusting it can be for legit writers to come to the surface. It's like a trial where you start in the maze-like sewers and have to make your way to the surface. When you finally see the light of day, you're still covered in shit, until you can finally take a shower and breathe.

Sometimes you see buyers bitch and moan about stupid things like, a barely noticeable pixelated art or how they believe they are entitled to more because their dollars are worth gold, how your game should be more like so and so, or this and that, etc...

I'm still surprised there's no rating protection on dtrpg. I can't sell my games for under a certain amount because of bogus 1 star reviews (like what happened to Knights & Legends 2e) without comments that actually explain why. It's a lose or lose for independent writers. Specially in a market where SJW/woke people have a large percentage of influence. That's why I wish people were less of jerks and appreciated the games real independent writers take their time and money to develop.

Quote from: FelixGamingX1;1136821I'm still surprised there's no rating protection on dtrpg.

Because then it will be a paid feature used to support the big names primarily :P. While consumers sure as heck can be entitled, I'm not sure how your argument isn't reversible on its head. How your not entitled to their money, and how much labor they went through to get that money, and how your not entitled to their praise.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136823Because then it will be a paid feature used to support the big names primarily :P. While consumers sure as heck can be entitled, I'm not sure how your argument isn't reversible on its head. How your not entitled to their money, and how much labor they went through to get that money, and how your not entitled to their praise.

Greetings!

Hey Shrieking my friend! Well, what is with the assumptions of "entitlement" at all, you know? Make a good product--and *some* people are sure to appreciate you and your work--while other people for whatever reason, will not approve of whatever you do. Fuck 'em, you know? You can't please everyone. Some people too, tend to be negative and hyper critical, and enjoy grinding anyone for anything, you know?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1136748Their first edition. Core rules are good, they are just a slightly modified version of D&D 3.5, I don't like buying adventures as $39 hard cover books that cover levels from 1 to 20. I don't want my campaign to be dictated by chapters in a 1 to 20th level adventure. I like the original concept of a dungeon, you know an adventure which provides your character with no more than 3 levels of advancement, a dungeon should cost no more than $10 to $15 at most, the DM should be able to insert it into his campaign rather than have the adventure be the campaign!

:) Yeah, I have seen their first edition -- still hate the aesthetic. I cannot stand anything 3.x/PF after years of trying it. I still keep hearing Fantasy Craft is the perfection of the 3.x/PF aesthetic, and one day I may try, but I have less patience with 'suffering for my fun' as it were. Better to enjoy what I like, life is short. :p And you do the same, too! :) Enjoy your fun!

That said, I do think your comment on Module Size is an interesting topic. I think Paizo is very savvy that their customer model is mostly "completionist collectors" who no longer play regularly. It is sort of like the comic book market with fans who aged from neurotic children who had to read every issue into OCD adults with a bigger toy budget but no longer read the pull list issues they keep in perfect condition. :D

Which, sure, I get it: Cater to your fans! But also you need to get new blood. :)

And I think their (Paizo) vision of new blood is Twitter analytics-based, which is... questionable (see: Comics brave new world of 2014... :o). Whereas I believe you (and DCC) are correct: Smaller, Cheaper Digests/Issues for players who don't have time to prepare. I see an opportunity there, and outside of DCC and Roll & Told comic seems woefully empty real estate. :)

Reminds me, I need to return to my idea using CCG cards to generate Micro-SandBox & their Domain BBEGs... Sorta like old Birthright domain folios but way smaller in scope. :)

Just imagine the days of all those MMO games where town guards kicked the crap out players being assholes in towns. Nowadays we'd have mass triggerings.

Quote from: SHARK;1136831Greetings!

Hey Shrieking my friend! Well, what is with the assumptions of "entitlement" at all, you know?

I don't know. Its this rise of 'vs consumer' mentality. While on the consumer's side I see this sort of belief that they have no choice but to consume.
Its this collectively unhealthy attachment to brands and their identities instead of forming of your own.
I think its this part of trying to sanitize the internet which I believe was an overall worse thing in the end. I'm not a fan of review bombing, but its also the only real way for a consumer to reach a large disconnected corporation in any way. At the same time if consumers just didn't buy the friggin product like it was a visit from grandma situation wouldn't need this sort of thing.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1136836Just imagine the days of all those MMO games where town guards kicked the crap out players being assholes in towns. Nowadays we'd have mass triggerings.

  Which always led me to ask, WTF do they need adventurers for when you have raid bosses guarding your town?

Quote from: oggsmash;1136840Which always led me to ask, WTF do they need adventurers for when you have raid bosses guarding your town?

Some of the high end corp security assets makes me ask the same about shadowrunners in Shadowrun. Sure, deniability and all, but come on...nobody really buys that anyway.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1136842Some of the high end corp security assets makes me ask the same about shadowrunners in Shadowrun.

They love wasting money. It's an oft missed aspect of Shadowrun lore, but their generators are run off pure wasted money.

Quote from: oggsmash;1136840Which always led me to ask, WTF do they need adventurers for when you have raid bosses guarding your town?

Quote from: HappyDaze;1136842Some of the high end corp security assets makes me ask the same about shadowrunners in Shadowrun. Sure, deniability and all, but come on...nobody really buys that anyway.

Because Institutions (city/nation, cult/religion, shop/corporation, etc.) are the equivalent of Dragons: nigh immortal,  obscene wealth, plan long term, and use their authority over minions to project power & take from smaller 'dragons'. "Minion Resources" needs to groom new minions routinely for long-term power projection; it's a conveyor belt of expendable talent.  ;) And now you understand a deeper truth about reality, fantasy past, sci-fi future, and the nature of power.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1136854Because Institutions (city/nation, cult/religion, shop/corporation, etc.) are the equivalent of Dragons: nigh immortal,  obscene wealth, plan long term, and use their authority over minions to project power & take from smaller 'dragons'. "Minion Resources" needs to groom new minions routinely for long-term power projection; it's a conveyor belt of expendable talent.  ;) And now you understand a deeper truth about reality, fantasy past, sci-fi future, and the nature of power.

How does that apply to TRPGs when the only real company with assets is WoTC?

Quote from: JeremyR;1136765There was a recent release of a fantasy cops product for 1E/OSRIC, City of Solstice, Evil Streets

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/309533/City-of-Solstice-Evil-Streets

Basically the premise is that a coalition of villains take over a fantasy city and the PCs are members of the city watch. There was an adventure released a week or so before this all started, it will be interesting to see if there is further support.

Good grief!  About two years ago I had the idea of a fantasy "Cops" where the PCs were members of the city watch.  

I love low-level stuff, and I thought it'd be great to explore this side of the story, if you will: what happens when the Adventuring Party (TM) has a drunken brawl in the tavern and the watch is called? When the brazen strumpet gets slapped around by her John? When, as a member of the watch, you're bribed to look the other way?  When the kraken wades into harbor and heads toward town?.

Fun!! Thanks for linking to this product!

Quote from: FelixGamingX1;1136862How does that apply to TRPGs when the only real company with assets is WoTC?

Because dragon Hasbro (WotC s mere minion) & dragon Paradox (WW is mere minion) are some of the only real players that matter in this backwater market, hence why backwater drakes/wyverns like Paizo have to skip to the corporate jumprope. It churns the tidepool (grabs eyes from elsewhere -- both a useful distraction and advertisement) and keeps any nascent competition suitably busy with desperately finding stability. Because in the chaos you can take more stuff and keep innovation (and thus threats to your power) down. :)

Oh, the politics of institutional power (like a cyberpunk corp) is very much understandable in terms of dragon overlords competing at another tier level. ;)

Quote from: FASAfan;1136901Good grief!  About two years ago I had the idea of a fantasy "Cops" where the PCs were members of the city watch.  

I love low-level stuff, and I thought it'd be great to explore this side of the story, if you will: what happens when the Adventuring Party (TM) has a drunken brawl in the tavern and the watch is called? When the brazen strumpet gets slapped around by her John? When, as a member of the watch, you're bribed to look the other way?  When the kraken wades into harbor and heads toward town?.

Fun!! Thanks for linking to this product!

I'd play that just for the novelty of it. It'd be an interesting campaign for low-level PCs, a nice change from the usual murderhobo standard :)

Quote from: The Exploited.;1136672Do you guys ever vote with your wallets, or will you continue to do business with Paizo, WoTC, Green Ronin, Whitewolf or Evil Hat?

Never bought anything by any of those companies.  The last D&D items I bought were from TSR and AD&D 1st edition.  I do play in both 3.5 and 5th edition D&D campaigns, but I don't need the books since both GMs purchased extra copies for the table.  I have purchased quite a few Steve Jackson and OSR products over the past couple of years though.

This isn't making people diverse, this is a total lack of tolerance. What's next? Titles being rejected for not being woke enough? What's wrong with fantasy police? I think Paizo crossed the line.

Quote from: FelixGamingX1;1137278I think Paizo crossed the line.

There's a line? I don't think we can say there's a line crossed until we see them take a real financial hit. Even if they lose respectability/reputation, they won't care as long as the money is still pouring in.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1137291There's a line? I don't think we can say there's a line crossed until we see them take a real financial hit. Even if they lose respectability/reputation, they won't care as long as the money is still pouring in.

"Pouring in" is an overstatement. Most folks who want to defund cops don't even play trpgs, as the genre remains largely reserved to middle class suburban citizens of North America and Europe. Don't think paizo will be getting much out of this apology other than temporary publicity. Will that publicity generate sales? Doubt it.

Another reason for not buying anything from Paizo.

One in an ever growing list.

Is it against forum policy to post lyrics from Alestorm songs in an ironic 'fuck you' to Paizo?

Just askin'.

Who even plays PF these days?

with an anchor no less.

Another issue is and I and some of my gaming circle noticed is like too many rpg companies they either don't like any push-back or just want to hear from their butt kissing fanbase. That thread linked in on page one has not only been closed. Surprise surprise they had not only heavily moderated the thread in making it look like all the fans were happy with the decision. They also had and pretty much will continue to censor anyone not towing the party line. In any case we will see if it hurts their sales which I don't think it will imo. Problem is gamers forget that boycotts only work if enough fans do them.

Oh it will hurt their sales but marketing and the SJW infiltrators will convince the suits that it an "acceptable loss" in older to "cultivate a new and larger customer base" eg: mindless cattle that buy what they are told to buy.

All this "Vote with your wallet" stuff is meaningless if you were never a customer to begin with or hadn't been a customer for years prior to the thing you object to now. You're not making a sacrifice to decline to buy from a company you were never buying from, and you're not making a "vote" against the company if the vote wasn't previously for the company. They cannot even notice your absence if you were not previously present.

Quote from: Omega;1138089Oh it will hurt their sales but marketing and the SJW infiltrators will convince the suits that it an "acceptable loss" in older to "cultivate a new and larger customer base" eg: mindless cattle that buy what they are told to buy.

This does seem to be the strategy doesn't it? Well I'm certainly playing the game with them. I'm a "whale" when it comes to my hobbies... I'm a middle-aged man with zero qualms about dropping money on my favorite games. All I ask is these companies don't preach their personal morality (or lack thereof) at me via their game material - and everyone wins.

But no. It seems as a company they, and others like WotC, don't have the capacity to just make an entertaining game free of their personal ideology unnecessarily intruding. Which I take to mean that this insistence IS intended, and *I* am not a desired customer, and my money is not wanted.

I say so be it.

Quote from: Mistwell;1138178All this "Vote with your wallet" stuff is meaningless if you were never a customer to begin with or hadn't been a customer for years prior to the thing you object to now. You're not making a sacrifice to decline to buy from a company you were never buying from, and you're not making a "vote" against the company if the vote wasn't previously for the company. They cannot even notice your absence if you were not previously present.

Well I'm one of those "Vote with you wallet" people. I have *THOUSANDS* of dollars invested in WotC and Paizo material. And I would continue to happily shower thousands more on them - if they didn't go the route they have.

And that's the bet, isn't it? Most of the young people indoctrinated into their silly ideology will make up for the loss of others like myself that have considerable discretionary money due to my age and time earning money... But the question is WHY? Why does there need to be this dichotomy at ALL? It has nothing to do with the money... clearly. Oh it's because of ideology. Not something worth banking on imo.

But that's the bet they're calling for. And I'm game. It costs *me* nothing to make this wager.

Quote from: tenbones;1138179This does seem to be the strategy doesn't it?

Probably another factor bundled into the problem is they may be pulling an outtage marketing maneuver as well to push sales. Marketing is infatuated with this damn idea across the board.

Alot of the problems in gaming and entertainment would be alot lessened if marketing werent either assisting or encouraging them.

Quote from: tenbones;1138180Well I'm one of those "Vote with you wallet" people. I have *THOUSANDS* of dollars invested in WotC and Paizo material. And I would continue to happily shower thousands more on them - if they didn't go the route they have.

And that's the bet, isn't it? Most of the young people indoctrinated into their silly ideology will make up for the loss of others like myself that have considerable discretionary money due to my age and time earning money... But the question is WHY? Why does there need to be this dichotomy at ALL? It has nothing to do with the money... clearly. Oh it's because of ideology. Not something worth banking on imo.

But that's the bet they're calling for. And I'm game. It costs *me* nothing to make this wager.

I am not making idle threats either.  I spend lots--buy all the books, hundreds of dollars of minis, etc.

I am going to watch all of this closely.  They may not change much in practice but we will soon see.  But I promise if they act like traditionalists don't matter, I AM OUT and so are my pals.  We're mostly middle upper class professionals and we will redirect our dollars.

I think we count for double our number of younger counterparts or more in disposable income.  I buy all the stuff my kids want too.  That is also going to be over if they get heavy handed.

It is reaching absurd heights in theory.  We grew up with D&D archetypes and want them still.  If they sacrifice them for the Twitter-whiners why would I NOT just play another game, use what I have or play 1e AD&D?

But here is the catch.  It only matters if people stick to it.  Talk is cheap.  We will see.  If they pussify the game, I will be interested to see if the pendulum swings back.

Quote from: Mishihari;1136184That was the old ENWorld, with Eric Noah.  Morrus's rule is "no politics, but if it's one of my pet issues, it's not politics."  I posted a lot there over a 15 year period, had a lot of fun, lots of cool people, but when the new policies went into effect I bailed.  It was a shame - it used to be a really nice community.

Me too. I spent a ton of time there before 3e released and for years after. Pretty much stopped all D&D during 4e, then back for 5e. I saw the decline when Eric left and it only got worse until I stopped altogether a few years ago.

In regards to "vote with your wallet", let's be grateful we live in the Golden Age of RPGs.

There's a constant stream of cool RPG shiznack being made by people who aren't worthless arse drippings.

Reward them and enjoy their cool stuff.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1137559Is it against forum policy to post lyrics from Alestorm songs in an ironic 'fuck you' to Paizo?

Yes it is. You're required to post the whole video!!

[video=youtube;th4Czv1j3F8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th4Czv1j3F8[/youtube]

It's SO much fun with the whole audience singing along when they play this live.

Quote from: Warpiglet;1138263I think we count for double our number of younger counterparts or more in disposable income.  I buy all the stuff my kids want too.  That is also going to be over if they get heavy handed.

Great point. Many of us were the first generation of kids playing D&D. Nowadays, plenty of RPG consumers are middle-aged, and the choices they make will not only affect the current market, but will inform and direct the market decisions for the next generation as well.

As said before. Marketing pushes that older players are "problematic". They have "expectations" that get in the way of the "creatives" "vision" of what the game should be about.

Older players are also "problematic" because they are more often savvy and resistant to modern marketing tactics like outrage marketing and the five year plan. They want "modern" customers. Cattle that will buy and re-buy their product without question. Happy to be slaughtered and bled out.

Quote from: Omega;1138327They want "modern" customers. Cattle that will buy and re-buy their product without question. Happy to be slaughtered and bled out.

New Apple's iD&D.  Rounded corners, smooth, unoffensive and simple to use.

Quote from: Omega;1138327As said before. Marketing pushes that older players are "problematic". They have "expectations" that get in the way of the "creatives" "vision" of what the game should be about.

Older players are also "problematic" because they are more often savvy and resistant to modern marketing tactics like outrage marketing and the five year plan. They want "modern" customers. Cattle that will buy and re-buy their product without question. Happy to be slaughtered and bled out.

Agreed and seconded and what is worse they think no one will notice especially the older gamers except we are usually smarter to that bullshit.

In any case if anything good that came out of Covid is that my order of the PF 2E book never arrived and I requested and received a refund. I could see the slow descent of the Paizo devs into fake "woke and woe is me I am such a bad person for being white and overly privliged" bullshit. I knew it was bad. I never realized how bad it was until they grovelled like gutless wonders because of their Police AP. I am not stopping to play and maybe possibly buy more 1E product. Chances are good I will probably never buy 2E after this fiasco. I rather buy 5E which has the same SJW garbage and they bend the knee yet imo Wotc tends have a little more self-respect not by much though. Beyond the issues with their politics the 2E products are both more expensive and lacking in information imo.

Their version of Legends and Lore Inner Sea Gods for PF 1E is 52$ on Amazon.ca and is 300 pages, compared to the Lost Omens and Gods book that is 46.50 has less information and content and 128 pages. The first book is pretty much self contained the second they are spooning out in small amounts with the same price. Note I am not against making money as an rpg company when the initial book is pretty much complete and has all the information and the second one is less so and as expensive well i guess they learned the lessons from Wotc. I can justify both to my fiance and mainly to myself buying a 50$ 128 page book when pre- Pathfinder 2E that same book would sell for 25-30 in softcover.

Quote from: Omega;1138327As said before. Marketing pushes that older players are "problematic". They have "expectations" that get in the way of the "creatives" "vision" of what the game should be about.

Older players are also "problematic" because they are more often savvy and resistant to modern marketing tactics like outrage marketing and the five year plan. They want "modern" customers. Cattle that will buy and re-buy their product without question. Happy to be slaughtered and bled out.

And yet, those older players are the very reason that "they have jobs" in the RPG industry today.  All artists are free to express their creative vision; but if there aren't enough people who are willing to buy into their vision, they will be back to working a normal job outside of the RPG industry.

Quote from: Razor 007;1138506And yet, those older players are the very reason that "they have jobs" in the RPG industry today.  All artists are free to express their creative vision; but if there aren't enough people who are willing to buy into their vision, they will be back to working a normal job outside of the RPG industry.

This is why they push more and more for "pay per word" for books and "pay per hour" for art rather than on the actual merit of the work. These are also the ones who most oft bitch about older players being bad and interfering with their "agenda" or "vision".

Meanwhile the execs are trying to attract this "untapped customer base" at the expense of their existing customer base. This has been going on a while now. Movies, games, entertainements been gradually overrun with these types.

Quote from: Omega;1138519This is why they push more and more for "pay per word" for books and "pay per hour" for art rather than on the actual merit of the work. These are also the ones who most oft bitch about older players being bad and interfering with their "agenda" or "vision".

Meanwhile the execs are trying to attract this "untapped customer base" at the expense of their existing customer base. This has been going on a while now. Movies, games, entertainements been gradually overrun with these types.

"New customer base" is a smokescreen. The goal is to destroy, even ahead of profits.

Quote from: RandyB;1138521"New customer base" is a smokescreen. The goal is to destroy, even ahead of profits.

Eeeh Id say its a mix of elements that are not really realized. Very few consciously realize their end-goal is destruction.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1138522Eeeh Id say its a mix of elements that are not really realized. Very few consciously realize their end-goal is destruction.

The historic label for those unaware individuals is "useful idiots".

Quote from: Omega;1138089Oh it will hurt their sales but marketing and the SJW infiltrators will convince the suits that it an "acceptable loss" in older to "cultivate a new and larger customer base" eg: mindless cattle that buy what they are told to buy.

You're right that they don't care, but it's actually because they would be entirely happy to see the entire industry die so long as it brings them closer to their socialist eschaton.

Quote from: areallifetrex;1138580You're right that they don't care, but it's actually because they would be entirely happy to see the entire industry die so long as it brings them closer to their socialist eschaton.

The RPG industry is a drop in the bucket, whether it succeeds or fails won't affect the course of nations. People doing this sort of thing should run for public office if they want to get into politics, instead of trying to manage an RPG company. This is not just in RPG, there are Hollywood producers, and reporters that think they are politicians, instead of doing their jobs, they seek to sway public opinion instead of just producing a good product that the public wants to buy. I would like an RPG company that just wants to make a buck by selling a great product, whatever happened to that? Why do they stray into modern politics so often and often in the left side of the political spectrum? Maybe they are in the wrong job if they do that. They are ruining some great companies just because they want to use them as political levers, they should be fired for doing that!

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1138640The RPG industry is a drop in the bucket, whether it succeeds or fails won't affect the course of nations. People doing this sort of thing should run for public office if they want to get into politics, instead of trying to manage an RPG company. This is not just in RPG, there are Hollywood producers, and reporters that think they are politicians, instead of doing their jobs, they seek to sway public opinion instead of just producing a good product that the public wants to buy. I would like an RPG company that just wants to make a buck by selling a great product, whatever happened to that? Why do they stray into modern politics so often and often in the left side of the political spectrum? Maybe they are in the wrong job if they do that. They are ruining some great companies just because they want to use them as political levers, they should be fired for doing that!

You mention ruining companies. That's been one of the things that's bugged me of late about companies 'going woke'. Not just genuflecting, either.

A publicly traded company and its board of directors has a fiduciary duty to the shareholders to not fuck up the stock values. Now, businesses rise and fall, and sometimes bad luck intervenes. But are shareholders so 'woke' they'll happily watch their stock value tank to be properly progressive?

And mind you, some of the biggest stockholders aren't individuals or even businesses, but pension and retirement plans -- especially state-run pension plans. Which adds a new degree of absurdity to this dance.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1138640The RPG industry is a drop in the bucket, whether it succeeds or fails won't affect the course of nations.

No, but one of the requirements of the Leftist belief system is that EVERYTHING is politics. You cannot NOT talk about politics. Ever.

Also, Leftists, like the Puritans, are miserable little shits. The old joke that Puritanism is the "dreadful sense that someone somewhere is happy" applies just as much to the modern Leftist. If you're having FUN playing an RPG instead of contemplating your sins to wokeness then you're a heathen that must be ostracized from society.

RPGs, like the entertainment industry used to be, were ESCAPES from their monolith. You cannot be allowed to escape for even a moment though because escape gives you a chance to recharge and continue to resist. They've wrecked music, movies, television, sports and they're in the process with video games and RPGs. They took full advantage of the China virus to cancel just about every summertime event people might gather at to have fun.

They want you to be miserable so you'll surrender... escaping via playing RPGs (which generally embrace teamwork among very different characters, respect for authority/the GM and just having a good with your friends) isn't allowed in the new order.

The best way to take away RPGs is make the big ones into something no one really wants to buy and use "cancel culture" to remove those that are still enjoyable from public view so they'll slowly be choked off as the current fans who have the books don't need new ones and no one new is buying them.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1138647You mention ruining companies. That's been one of the things that's bugged me of late about companies 'going woke'. Not just genuflecting, either.

A publicly traded company and its board of directors has a fiduciary duty to the shareholders to not fuck up the stock values. Now, businesses rise and fall, and sometimes bad luck intervenes. But are shareholders so 'woke' they'll happily watch their stock value tank to be properly progressive?

And mind you, some of the biggest stockholders aren't individuals or even businesses, but pension and retirement plans -- especially state-run pension plans. Which adds a new degree of absurdity to this dance.

Shareholders are likely being kept in the dark. Or worse. Told that these actions are "loss leaders" That losing customers and revenue is good for the company and profits as they are attracting a new more diverse customer base. Cattle that can be more easily slaughtered.

There may also be pressure to just accept the loss as resistance means you can be branded as racist.

Quote from: Chris24601;1138654Also, Leftists, like the Puritans, are miserable little shits. The old joke that Puritanism is the "dreadful sense that someone somewhere is happy" applies just as much to the modern Leftist. If you're having FUN playing an RPG instead of contemplating your sins to wokeness then you're a heathen that must be ostracized from society.

RPGs, like the entertainment industry used to be, were ESCAPES from their monolith. You cannot be allowed to escape for even a moment though because escape gives you a chance to recharge and continue to resist. They've wrecked music, movies, television, sports and they're in the process with video games and RPGs. They took full advantage of the China virus to cancel just about every summertime event people might gather at to have fun.

They want you to be miserable so you'll surrender... escaping via playing RPGs (which generally embrace teamwork among very different characters, respect for authority/the GM and just having a good with your friends) isn't allowed in the new order.

The best way to take away RPGs is make the big ones into something no one really wants to buy and use "cancel culture" to remove those that are still enjoyable from public view so they'll slowly be choked off as the current fans who have the books don't need new ones and no one new is buying them.

That is because the new left is the old puritans with the added armour of political outrage. Look back and you'll see that this SJW disease started by primarily targeting things deemed "sexist". Which was anything and everything as we predicted. Then it snowballed because a few spearhead leaders started really pushing it and glueing in more and more "ists" to the list of sins. Suddenly your game racist! and so on.

And removing any escape from them is part of the plan. If your hate screed is everywhere then its more likely to take root in the unsuspecting. And they use deflection to make it seem like they are protecting you from this very tactic.